‘The Bear’ Season 4, Episodes 7-9: Breaking Down the Wedding Episode

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast Summary: Breaking Down 'The Bear' Season 4, Episodes 7-9

Release Date: June 27, 2025

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1. Introduction and Housekeeping

At the onset of the episode, hosts Charles Holmes and Van Lathan reintroduce themselves and clarify the podcast's focus. They emphasize their commitment to providing in-depth analyses without spoilers and encourage listeners to stay tuned for future content.

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2. Episode Overview

Covering Episodes 7-9: "Green and Tornado"

Charles Holmes provides a comprehensive rundown of the episodes under discussion:

• Directed by: Christopher Storer
• Written by: Joanna Callow (Episode 7) and a collaboration between Callow and Storer (Episodes 8 & 9)

Key Plot Points:

• Wedding Episode: The highly anticipated wedding episode brings significant character developments. Richie and Frank confront their anxieties about fatherhood, Carmi reunites with his estranged mother, and deep familial bonds are explored.

• Uncle Lee’s Influence: Carmi shares a heartfelt conversation with Uncle Lee (portrayed by Bob Odenkirk), who imparts wisdom about pride and guilt related to leaving Chicago.

• Financial Struggles: Natalie faces challenges as Uncle Jimmy considers pulling funding, questioning the restaurant’s sustainability.

• Surprises and Developments: Albert pitches expansion ideas, Marcus earns recognition as one of Food & Wine's best new chefs, and Pete reveals potential changes within the restaurant's leadership.

Notable Quote:

“Our predictions were fucking wrong. This like we were.” – Charles Holmes [04:03]

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3. Character Development

Carmi’s Personal Journey:

Carmi’s interactions, especially with his mother and Uncle Lee, highlight his internal struggles and growth. His evolution from being professionally obsessed to investing in personal relationships marks a significant shift in his character arc.

Richie and Frank:

Richie’s grappling with the upcoming fatherhood and his relationship with Frank showcases his vulnerability and desire for stability.

Sid and Donna:

The bond between Sid and Donna deepens, emphasizing themes of family and support. Their conversations reveal personal growth and the importance of choosing one’s family.

Notable Quote:

“The best way to break a pattern is to break patterns.” – Uncle Lee [06:21]

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4. Themes and Insights

Breaking Patterns:

A central theme across the episodes is the characters’ efforts to break free from destructive cycles. Uncle Lee’s advice encapsulates this, encouraging characters to disrupt their usual behaviors to foster growth.

Family Dynamics:

The exploration of familial relationships, both biological and chosen, underscores the importance of support systems. The interactions between Carmi, his mother, and Uncle Lee highlight reconciliation and understanding.

Obsession vs. Investment:

Van Lathan delves into Carmi’s transition from obsession with his craft to a more invested approach, emphasizing collaboration and support for those around him.

Notable Quote:

“You can be obsessed, and sometimes that feels like you're super invested, but it's blinding.” – Van Lathan [22:30]

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5. Specific Scene Analysis

Carmi and Uncle Lee’s Heart-to-Heart:

The conversation between Carmi and Uncle Lee serves as a pivotal moment, revealing Carmi’s emotional depth and his need for familial acceptance. Uncle Lee’s affirmation that Michael was proud of Carmi alleviates Carmi’s guilt about leaving Chicago.

Richie’s Vulnerability:

Richie’s portrayal of anxiety and his attempts to be a supportive father reflect the show’s realistic depiction of personal struggles amidst professional chaos.

Notable Quote:

“Carmi needs his mom right now.” – Charles Holmes [11:35]

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6. Actor Performances and Writing

Outstanding Performances:

• Bob Odenkirk (Uncle Lee): Delivered a nuanced performance, providing emotional weight to Carmi’s journey.

• IO (Donna): Displayed significant growth, handling complex emotional scenes with grace.

• Brie Larson: Despite mixed initial reactions, her performance was lauded for fitting seamlessly into the narrative.

Writing Excellence:

The episodes succeeded in subverting expectations, offering deeper emotional narratives rather than adhering to typical high-paced plots. The writing effectively balanced humor, drama, and heartfelt moments.

Notable Quote:

“I have been blown away with what this season has, like, asked her to do.” – Charles Holmes [18:14]

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7. Themes on the Restaurant Industry

Sustainability and Evolution:

Discussions touch upon the challenges restaurants face in 2025, emphasizing the need for physical presence and adaptability amidst economic pressures. The podcast draws parallels between the show’s narrative and real-world restaurant dynamics, questioning the viability of high-end establishments in changing times.

Notable Quote:

“How do you juggle comfort with being daring? This season, we've seen a lot of people... becoming whole because they're adapting to pressure.” – Van Lathan [42:40]

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8. Predictions and Final Thoughts

Carmi’s Future:

The hosts speculate on Carmi’s trajectory, pondering whether he will remain at the restaurant or pursue new endeavors. They highlight his ongoing quest for balance between personal fulfillment and professional responsibilities.

Show’s Longevity:

Charles Holmes expresses optimism about the show’s future, appreciating its deep emotional layers and realistic portrayals of personal growth and family dynamics.

Final Quotes:

“This has been a fucking phenomenal season.” – Charles Holmes [59:03]
“I'm really enjoying it... Chicago is still a major character in the show.” – Van Lathan [57:24]

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9. Conclusion

Charles Holmes and Van Lathan wrap up the discussion by expressing their excitement for the upcoming finale. They commend the show's ability to tackle complex themes with authenticity and emotional depth, reinforcing why "The Bear" remains a standout series for appointment viewing.

Notable Quote:

“I've been trying to keep myself very pure, but I see people are, like, a little mixed or whatever. How are you feeling about this season and just the Bear as a project in general?” – Charles Holmes [56:18]

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Transcript

[Van Lathan]

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[Charles Holmes]

No matter where you're going this summer, odds are you'll need to pay for.

[Van Lathan]

A few things like a ride, share.

[Charles Holmes]

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[Van Lathan]

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[Charles Holmes]

Instead of digging for your wallet every time, just use Apple Pay. It's accepted anywhere you see the contact list symbol and all it takes is a tap with iPhone or Apple Watch. The best part is you'll still earn the card rewards points and cash back you love.

[Van Lathan]

Easy setup now, easier travels later with Apple Pay terms apply.

[Joanna Robinson]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple card for your summer travels, apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Terms and [e-mail].

[Charles Holmes]

Foreign welcome to the Prestige TV Podcast. We are back to discuss the pen ultimate episodes of the Bears season four. I'm Charles Holmes. He's Van Lathan. Together we're known as the Midnight Boys. Advent. It came faster than I. Than I would have predicted. We finally got the wedding episode. All right, Van Art.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, I'm.

[Charles Holmes]

You were fucking reading the fucking Midnight Boys. Reddit. Now you, now. It got you in the zone.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, I'm fine.

[Charles Holmes]

This is not the Midnight Boys.

[Van Lathan]

It's fine.

[Charles Holmes]

It's called the Prestige TV podcast.

[Van Lathan]

We have to be adults here. This is the house that sells. And Joanna and Rob. Rob built. We have to be.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, and cr.

[Van Lathan]

And cr. Okay. We have to be adults.

[Charles Holmes]

Before we get into the episode, let's do a little housekeeping and then let's do a little bit of a background in plot action. Okay? So housekeeping. Guys, you need to stay tuned to the fucking ringer. Higher learning is on Mondays and Thursdays.

[Van Lathan]

Tuesdays and Thursdays, Tuesdays and Thursdays.

[Charles Holmes]

Twice a week. Midnight Boys Wednesday. But we're. We're dropping some shit. We're dropping some midnight courts, dropping some drafts. Superman, Fantastic Four, Jurassic Park, Ironheart. Fucking tune in if you want some Squid Game season three coverage. Don't come here. Go straight to House of R. All right, now. Background for this episode today we're covering episodes seven through nine, Bears, Green and Tonado. Last three episodes of the season. Directed by Christopher Storer. Joanna Callow writes episode seven, while Kahlo and Storer share writing credits on eight and nine. So we finally get our wedding episode. Richie realizes Frank is just as nervous as he is about fatherhood and life as they both struggle to get young Eva out from under the table. Carmi reunites with his mother for the first time and after suffering a mild panic attack, shares a heart to heart with his Uncle Lee, played by Bob Odenkirk. Uncle Lee tells Carmi that Michael was proud of him and that he shouldn't feel guilty for leaving Chicago. By episode's end, Cindy and Donna bond. Car and Claire rekindle their romance, and Natalie finally forgives Nancy. Back at the Bear, the team is working until the deadline to ensure that the kitchen is safe. But the computer reveals to Natalie that Uncle Jimmy is pulling the plug on funding the operation and questions if Carm and her can afford to keep this place running on such short margins. Meanwhile, Carmi visits his mother and finally makes peace with her. We fast forward and we're left with some big surprises. Albert arrives just in time to pitch IBRA and the Beef gang on an idea for expanding that operation across Chicago. Marcus is named one of the best new chefs by food and wine, and Pete finally explains to Sid that Carmi is potentially leaving the Bear to her and Natalie. You. When we were off Mike, you said something that I had the same thought. Our predictions were fucking wrong. This like we were.

[Van Lathan]

If you're tuning into the podcast to listen to Chuck and Van predict the plot of the bear, then you're listening to the wrong podcast. I think on the last batch, on the last episode, with the last batch, I think that I said that Sid would leave and take the job. She didn't. I think that I said that Luca would step in for Sid.

[Charles Holmes]

That did not happen.

[Van Lathan]

I think that I said that the wedding would be the last episode. It was in fact the next episode. So so many things. And by the way, this tells you guys, we're not watching ahead. We're watching.

[Charles Holmes]

We're watching with you. But I think what is, what is it also says is that this season has done a good job of subverting my expectations. I feel like I'm ahead of the show and I know where it's going. I know where it's going. And we'll talk about it a little later. Even the wedding episode, I was a little bit like, oh, this is not how I thought. This is not how a typical hour long episode of the Bear with all the Bearzados happens.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, let's start right there. I mean, this is obviously a spiritual successor to Fishes, right? And you expected to get the same breakneck pacing intensity, particularly when Brie Larson pops up, that you got in Fishes. But what you got was an episode that was excellent, but a really sweet, emotional, funny, deep dive into the Brosado family, even more so than Fish's was a deep dive into their family.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, the reason I enjoyed this, this episode was because it does that wonderful thing where the characters are experiencing what the audience is feeling, where they're all. Before the wedding is starting, Richie's like, throwing up, he's puking. Like, Carmi's almost having a panic attack. They're all like, we know what happens when you get all of us in one room and then the episode opens up like this beautiful flower. And you realize, I think the spine of this entire season are these various characters breaking patterns. They even say, I think Uncle Lee, played by Bob Odenkirk, says it. He's basically just like, the best way to break a pattern is to break patterns.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And it was like, I wasn't expecting it, but it was almost beautiful to see these characters in a moment where they're finally like, I can do better. I can be better.

[Van Lathan]

Absolutely. Everybody got to play a home game and everybody got to play an away game. Everybody had the conversation that they needed to have, and then they had some that they didn't. Sugar is my favorite character this season. She's so great, hilarious. When she sees Franny Fack and she goes. And then they start their whole thing. That being the comedic B plot that was going on. These two bombastic characters.

[Charles Holmes]

When Pete look up Pete's basement, when the facts are just like, yeah, they hooked up. He's. You didn't talk like, hey, he's like, right.

[Van Lathan]

By the way, did we ever actually find out what happened with them? No, we. They don't tell us if it had something to do with whatever encounter they had or if it was something else. But we still kind of don't know exactly what happened between Sugar and Franny. Fact.

[Charles Holmes]

But that's what I loved. I loved that comedically where it was just like, oh, it didn't matter. And even, I'll be honest, we were so critical last season. A lot of people with just the, like, it Was like a fucking DJ Khaled album with just the people fucking coming in out of the woodworks. I thought Brie Larson was really good.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, she worked. Yeah, she worked.

[Charles Holmes]

I thought she fit in perfectly. She got the humor. I was just like, oh, this is amazing. But I also. It was. I thought everybody did a phenomenal job. I think Odenkirk and the scene with him and Carmi was really, really fucking good.

[Van Lathan]

Of all of the conversations that we have here. Right. There's so many things here or in this episode that come to a head. You have Richie and Frank, Sid and Donna, Sid and Donna, Carmi and Claire to a degree. Not really, but it's the shape. Not until the next episode, but it's the beginning of it. Which one do you think was the one that the episode centered around? Which conversation in the episode had to happen?

[Charles Holmes]

I think there's two, and I'm cheating. I think it's Carmi and Uncle Lee, and I think it's Donna and Sid. Because with Donna and Sid, I was just like, oh, this is the moment when she chooses the pair.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, this was the conversation she needed to have in terms of just like, why am I staying here? And then the realization that these people are my family, that. I think all this season, like, Sid is having, like, a lot of these logical arguments about why going with Shapiro is better. And Donna, weirdly, is the. Because I was like, oh, this was the first time. I was like, oh. I didn't realize that the show was kind of telling us that Sid and Donna operated similarly in the restaurant where Donna was like, when it was the beef, I was the person that came in and they were my family, and da, da, da, da. And I was just like, oh. The show is always drawing a line between Donna and Carmi. I didn't like her being the character to, like, Jamie Lee curse. Did an amazing job. To be like Sid, like, you love these people, was incredible.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's Donna and Sid, and I'll tell you why. Because two things happened there. Number one, we tie a bow on Sid's aspirations outside of the bear. Very important. Number two, that scene is an appetizer for Carmi and his mother reconciling. Yeah, that has to happen. He sort of avoids her as much as he possibly can. She's looming around. But really, as she sits down and talks to Sid, we get an understanding of how the character has deepened.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because one great thing that the bear is able to do is to create such anxiety around two characters meeting. You know, there's anxiety when a character has a gun on another character. We went and saw Jurassic World Rebirth, and there's a scene. I'm not gonna ruin it or spoil anything, but there's a scene where one character is in the foreground and something's happening in the background. And there's a tremendous amount of anxiety with that. But those are fucking dinosaurs. To be able to create this much uncomfortability or anticipation around a conversation the two characters are gonna have that's not life and death, but feels like more like death and life than life and death. The show does such a great job of that. And in this particular one, I'm like, okay, Donna's back in. Now it's okay to feel something for Donna. She mothered a little bit, and I had never seen her do that.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

In the show, I had never seen her, like, be a mom. And the first time I saw her be a mom was with when she was talking to Sid. And Carmi needs his mom right now.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean. And I think what's beautiful is that this show, even though it is so centered on an Italian family, what I think they locate when you come from a large family, is whenever there's a gathering. I've experienced this every single time I go home, every single Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever it be, where the beefs that are happening around the party or the gathering, everybody, like, knows the backstory or knows little bits, but, like, depending upon your relationship to the story, it's just kind of like, oh, they're just fighting. Like, our cousins are fighting, the sisters are fighting, the brothers are fighting. Like. And even the trio of our three leads, Richie, Carmi, Sid, them all kind of realizing at the same time that they're all feeling the same emotion, that they're all nervous, that they're all afraid, that they're all fighting for something in different ways. Even. It was very on the nose. But, like, by the end, I even thought Ava hiding under the table and all the people coming under. I was like, oh, this is a little corny. But by the end, I was like, oh, this is so sweet. Like, this is so.

[Van Lathan]

Well, yeah, the Ava thing was interesting because it was a situation that those two guys weren't gonna be able to figure out.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And it kind of underscores everybody gets under the table. They all talk about what they're afraid of. Right. The only thing that can make all of those people come together and hook together like that is somebody that hasn't been initiated into their trauma yet.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Gotta be a little kid. Everybody Gonna rally around and protect a little kid. Right? So if it's about getting her out from under that table and maybe helping her find her dancing shoes or her dancing spirit or whatever, everyone would do that. There's not one other thing that would have happened at that wedding that they all would have got around that could have gotten them all under that table like that little hokey. Yeah. But that took the pressure off Richie, who I really, really, really identified with in this episode.

[Charles Holmes]

Man, Richie was just.

[Van Lathan]

Richie is just. He's trying to be a dad, and normally being a good dad, it's about letting go. But it's not about letting go so somebody else can fill in. So he has to believe that his daughter's heart is big enough to love not only her father, but the guy who's gonna be there as her stepdad. And he has to trust a kid, and that's difficult to do.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's not just that. It was like. There was this one moment where Uncle Jimmy goes over to Richie, and he's just like. He's looking at. He's like, Claire's gorgeous. Tiff. He's looking beautiful. You two fucked up. And the look on Richie, on Emma's background's face is just like. Because I've been in those situations where, like, you're friends with a dude and his ex is, like, happy with someone who's better than. And, like, hey, if you love her, you gotta, like. You gotta be happy for her. You gotta be happy for the daughter. I've had to have that talk with my friends with kids being like, yo, like, you fucked up.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

You kind of have to eat your. And to. For Richie to be graceful in that and to try to help Frank through that was almost. I was just like, oh, we're seeing a side of him that he's been fighting against this entire series.

[Van Lathan]

As this functions as a sequel to Fishes, John Mulaney is back.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

And he's been in, I think, a couple other. Paulson's back. She doesn't stay for a very long time. She does her thing. She kind of gets out of the episode. But when you see the extended family of them and you see people who are just used to it.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That they've been through so much. Like, Mulaney's character in this is very important because he likes it. He's in the family. And whereas a lot of people go, wow, these jokers are too much for me, he's. No, he likes it. He's there for it. He gets it. He understands it. And he helps kind of Sid get her bearings around what's gonna happen. Because really, Sid is him. Sid is him. Yeah, Sid. Everybody else is kind of around in the orbit of whatever. Even Frank, the guy who Richie's ex wife is marrying, seems to be a part of their extended circle in some way.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. Because he. Is he high. Cause he has this running bit with Marcus best friend who sold his house. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, he worked and that gu seems like he knows the facts or it's just like. To your point, I think also what this introduced to me is I'm like, oh, like Claire is actually ingrained in the. Like, she knows the Bears, Ottos. And even Tiff is like. I thought. Cause I was like, wait, Tiff's not related to them? And then she's like, yeah, only the bears showed up. My own family did it. And I was like, oh, the Bearzados, their family structure mirrors the Bear in a way where they're. No matter how toxic they are, they're very good at adopting people into the larger family and taking care of. And they have so much love. And to your point, Mulaney and Claire seem very much like it's just the bears being Claire.

[Van Lathan]

Claire and Carmi almost seem like an arranged marriage.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

It almost seems like they are two people that in this entire group were fell in love, but also are designated partners for everyone. That's why when you're trying to get at Carmi, you know you're fucking up with Claire, you're fucking up with Claire. And that's something that they use to kind of pull him or rein him back in. Should I say? Yeah, but watching Sid be in that situation with the wedding, with everything on 12, everything turned up as much as it can be turned up. And then still made the decision that now this is kind of her family. She's talking to Donna. He says, hey, like, your work family can be just like your real family. She says, no, it's like, it's just family. Yeah, it's just family. It's just family. And then she makes that decision not to stay at the Bear, but she kind of makes a decision to become a brazado in a way.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep. I mean, and I will say, if we stay on IO, she's been phenomenal through this entire series. I have been blown away with what this season has, like, asked her to do.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Charles Holmes]

And how she's risen to the occasion in terms of, like, having the episode when her dad has a heart attack. She's. She's crying and she's breaking down. And then this episode where she has to be almost soft and initiated into this family and talk to Donna and she's dancing with Richie. And even when she's becoming more of a leader in the next couple episodes, I'm like, it's. It's weird, but I. All. The greatest thing about watching TV is seeing young actors who kind of made their big break on a show get to do this and get to, like, level up to. I was just like, oh, because if we kind of flash forward, I was wondering. I was like, is there a version of this show where IO is more of the lead than. Than Jeremy Allen White? Because we end the penultimate ninth episode. Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding with that is that Carmi is essentially said, I'm no longer in the kitchen. I'm no longer even a part of the Bear. The only people who are part of the ownership group now are Natalie and Sid and then obviously Jimmy. It seemed like that was Carmi's way of saying, I'm stepping back from cooking. Like, did I misinterpret?

[Van Lathan]

I'm not sure yet. I really don't know. Carmi's quest in this season is not professional at all.

[Charles Holmes]

No. Which he seems on a parallel path to those stuff happening. He's rarely in the kitchen.

[Van Lathan]

Carmi's deal is not professional. It is so subtle how they have switched places when last season seemed to be all about everybody's personal growth and, like, personally what they were going through. You know, kind of oriented around what was happening at the Bear, you know, And Carmi was just tunnel vision. Tunnel vision. Tunnel vision. One thing. Chef, cook, restaurant. And now when you think about it, you don't see him cooking very much in this. You see him diversifying his humanity, and you see everybody else kind of locking in on what has to work for the restaurant to work. Not overly locking in. Not getting crazy, like, he gets crazy. But it's weird, like, between Carmi and Sid, it's like he almost became D. Wade in the Heat Championship years. Like, D. Wade went out, won a Finals mvp, got a fourth, got a. Got Shaq a fourth ring, got his first ring. Hey, I can be the man at whatever point. But then it was like, it got to a point where D. Wade averaged 30, do the whole nine. Then LeBron comes and D. Wade goes. I can win A championship averaging 22 points a game, 21 points a game. I don't have to get 26. I don't have to get 28. I don't have to get 30. Like, I can be a part of an ensemble and rise to new heights. Now, I'm not saying that Sid is coming in like LeBron, but I'm saying is, like, Jeremy Allen White is getting his D weight on a little bit well.

[Charles Holmes]

But I think that. That what's interesting is that's made the Bear more successful the more Carmi has been like, I'm trusting Sid to take over more. I'm trusting Richie in the front of the house. I'm trusting, like, I'm putting Luke. I put Marcus next to Luka. They're good. Like, it. I think it's actually when you think about why Carmi started the Bear, this was a promise that he made, one of the last promises that he made to his brother that they were going to open up this restaurant, the Bear. And all the season, people like, what are you chasing, Wonder? You chasing? What are you chasing? And then sugar is just like, hey, if you've fallen out of cooking, you don't have to be like, you don't have to be in love with this thing. And have we been on this trajectory where I'm like, is Carmi's ultimate salvation realizing that Cid has it like, Sid, like, passing along this to this woman who, like, actually doing something better than Shapiro. Shapiro was pitching her on. You're gonna be my partner. I think Carmi's pitching on. You don't need me anymore. This is yours.

[Van Lathan]

So we have to talk about Shapiro in a second, too. But I think that Carmi and the audience, through him are supposed to get an idea of what it means, the difference between being obsessed and being invested. You can be obsessed, and sometimes that feels like you're super invested, but it's blinding. You're obsessed with something, you're obsessed with it. All great people that I look at, their greatness all had to learn the lesson of what it means to be obsessed at what it means to be invested. If you're obsessed, it's like, gotta do this, gotta do this. But it's a very singular thing. Yeah, it's your relationship with whatever that thing that you're obsessed with. And obsession is normally about seeing you grow. And sometimes what you think is, if I'm as good as possible at what I'm doing, everything else will be better. Being invested in something is different because when you're invested into it, you want to see it grow, and you want to see the people around that grow. Like, if you're invested into your team, then you want everybody to be better, not just you. So that you guys can do the best that you can. And I think that we saw in season three that Carmi was obsessed, and that's a part of who he is, and which made him so good at singularly being a chef. Now we're seeing him try to figure out how he invests. How he invests into Claire, how he invests into his mom, reinvests into his mom, even sometimes with diminishing returns, how he invests into the restaurant, into Sid. And some of that has to do with letting go a little bit. And watching him let go in this season has been phenomenal.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, also. Cause you brought it up. When we were talking about the first episode. I found it so funny where in that we saw how Carmi, even when he was making, like, tomato sauce, has this tendency because he's so obsessed and shit, to almost get frazzled and not actually pay attention and put love into what he's making. I might be wrong. Over these past couple seasons, we've seen Marcus make food that is talking about his upbringing and his family and trying to connect. We've seen Sid make an omelet for sugar. And this was one of the first episodes in a while where I remember where we're not seeing Carmi try to cook something that is, like, highbrow, technically perfect. Da, da, da, da, da. He's making chicken for his mom.

[Van Lathan]

For his mom.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's this. I was like, oh, that's a beautiful scene. Because I'm like, he traveled the entire world running away from something, learning how to cook, trying to prove himself. And he ended up at the place where he needed to be, which is infusing love. He's like, I made this at the French Laundry every single day. Here you go. And I was just like, oh, that's what he needed more than the rest of it.

[Van Lathan]

And that's the peace offering right there.

[Charles Holmes]

And I was like, that was a beautiful fucking scene, right?

[Van Lathan]

And look, his mom had gone to Italy, had this. You know, I don't know if you've ever been mad on vacation before. It's so wild that Kanye ended up fucking over himself like he did and doing all this shit. Because there are certain Kanye lyrics that when I would hear him, I would laugh. Because when he said in Bound 2, he goes, how you gonna be mad on vacation? And I've been there before. I've been in Anguilla with Kalika. Like, can we just. Like, just. Can you just stall me out? Just give me three days, and then you could whoop my ass when we get back because we wasting beach right now. Like, we wasted.

[Charles Holmes]

There is no worse feeling than being on vacation. You had gotten into a fight with your partner. I'm like, fah, I'm gonna go out by myself. Just like, drinking that. Like drinking some mixed drinks.

[Van Lathan]

It's happened. People you looking around. Everybody else look like they got it figured out. You're like, yo, can I get another Bailey's Banana and Cream? And then you know what's funny? We got this quick sidebar. So. So there's a drink that they make in the Caribbean, and it's called a Bailey's Banana and Cream.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Has anybody ever had this drink before?

[Charles Holmes]

I have not had a Bailey.

[Van Lathan]

I've never had this before. So it's Bailey's Banana and cream. It's like a mixed drink right now, Kai, the drink is called Bailey's Banana and Cream. What is that for short?

[Charles Holmes]

All right, you're setting me up.

[Van Lathan]

No, I'm asking you. Cause that's what the drink is called. What is that for sure? BBC. It's the BBC. So you.

[Charles Holmes]

The British Broadcasting. That's crazy. You brought me in for that.

[Van Lathan]

That's why. Shout out to Kai, what time is it, man? Oh, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Shout out to Jack Sanders.

[Van Lathan]

So we would. Shout out Jack Sanders. So we would. I remember I'm at the bar and everybody's hanging out, and I'm mad. Me and Kali could have gotten to it. I'm mad. And there's a white lady. She wasn't. I don't think she was white. Well, she was white, but I think she was more like a Latin. Latina or something like that. And I'm by myself now, and the guy looks over and she goes, can I get the BBC? I remember I just got in a fight with my girl. I don't know if she's talking to me or to the bartender. And she goes, can I get the BBC? And I'm like, no, I'm not that mad. No, you can't. I'm on vacation.

[Charles Holmes]

So anyway, did that set Kalika off?

[Van Lathan]

She wasn't even there. Kalika was over on the. Kalika was over on the thing I had left. We at the beach shack or whatever. Blanchard's Beach Shack on Mead's Bay in Anguilla. And so they got. If you have a Blanchard's, it's crazy. It's really good. So we, you know, she over there, she pissed off. Whatever. I'm mad. So I go over there to get the drinks, and a woman walks up and she asks for the BBC.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm like, oh, did you look good?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I had to ask. Sorry, guys.

[Van Lathan]

Cause we had had him in Grenada, but I had forgotten that the BBC was a drink real quick. So Donna's mad on vacation at their father, and that memory becomes about a meal.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. About an Italian woman who had brought her a meal when she's, like, crying, furious.

[Van Lathan]

I forget.

[Charles Holmes]

I looked it up. It looked disgusting.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that, that. And even in the dish itself, it's something that looks disgusting, but you have to eat it to know how good it tastes, bro. That's what family is. If you step back and you look at if I tell people about my relationship with my dad, or if I tell people about some of the other stuff I've been through with loved ones in my life or some of these people's lives, you would think it would look like all of this stuff was so messy and nasty and disgusting. But if you're there, you have to be there to understand how good it really tastes.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, there was even a moment when Carmi was talking to Uncle Lee where I felt this so much, where Carmi is almost taken aback. He's like, yo, my Uncle Lee is a prick. And he's like, me and Mikey got really, really close before he died. And I've had those moments where I've been the person who's left home. I come back, I'm talking to a brother, a cousin, whatever, and they're talking like they're best friends with someone we had sworn our whole life. An uncle, whoever. I thought you didn't fuck with them. Da, da, da, da, da, da. And then you learn the story of, he was the only one around when I fucked up. He helped pick me up. He helped keep me company.

[Van Lathan]

He came and got me. He bailed me out the whole way.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's funny because I was just like, usually it is those uncle figures who have been in that state where they're like, oh, they're a little older. They're like, I was young. I fucked up. I remember when I needed someone. And it was interesting seeing Carmi, seeing Uncle Lee in a different light and seeing his brother in a different light. In that moment, I was like, oh, that is a very honest conversation. It was just. That was a wonderful episode. And it was something where it was like, did it almost in a weird way, feel like a funeral for the bear? A little bit.

[Van Lathan]

Which episode?

[Charles Holmes]

The wedding episode, where it was just like, if the series ends with this season, I could see that being in terms of just like, if fishes Was like, teaching us the history of the Barrasados. Does the wedding episode be like, this is how they break the patterns. This is their future?

[Van Lathan]

It did at the time, but then the next two episodes made me wonder how long they wanted to do the show, because they could do the show for a very long time. Talk about the Shapiro thing, though. You wanted to bring it up. Shapiro's reaction?

[Charles Holmes]

I don't fuck with Shapiro.

[Van Lathan]

Shapiro sucks.

[Charles Holmes]

There was something. There was something. I don't know who got this idea for this type of character, but I think we've been very, very hard on Carmi in terms of, like. And rightfully, rightfully so, how he's treated not only everybody out in the restaurant, but specifically Sid. But I think if you watch the series, you can definitely say that, like, Carmi loves Sid on a personal level, but on a professional level, he actually thinks that she's.

[Van Lathan]

He respects her.

[Charles Holmes]

He respects her like, this is the chef that he wants to stand next to. And also, like, get to a point that he can leave her something be like, even if he's out of this world, like, yo, you got this. You don't need this. Run the team by yourself. And I think Shapiro, in that moment, proved he just wanted her talent. Her talent.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

There's a difference between, like, he didn't want to give her, like, true, true equity in this thing. Like a true. Like, no, this is your house. I am, like, partnering with you, so this can be yours one day. It seemed like Shapiro was building, like, a nice house, a nice foundation. She would get health insurance. She could make a lot of decisions, but she's not the boss at the end of the day.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, honestly, she's just another state of the art thing, meaning that, like, he has a state of the art healthcare system. He has a state of the art sound system. He was showing her all of the. The incredible, incredible immaculate stuff that he was gonna. She's just another stuff. She's another thing.

[Charles Holmes]

She's literally a talented black woman that you can feel cool when you're playing ante up.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, she's a state of the art chef. She's just another thing. But there's no family there. There's no connection.

[Charles Holmes]

I don't know if he even sees her as a person in the same way that Carmi and Richie and Tina do in terms of, like, no, we see your talent as a chef, but we also see your beauty as a person in this world, in our family. I don't know if Shapiro would ever.

[Van Lathan]

Have given her that Yeah, I mean, look, that's a part of the calculus that we all have to do in our heads in terms of what is meaningful to us. You know, like, if you, a basketball player and you are a part of the culture of the city that you're in, you know, think about if, like, Steph left Golden State. Now, it might be a time where Steph might want to leave Golden State, but it's not going to be for no money. That wouldn't be why that would happen. So, like, when you have a player or somebody that's a part of the culture of a place, a part of the thing, like, I am definitively a part of this, for you to leave. We see this all the time. That has to be a major, major pull. Either you have to leave so that you could achieve more. You believe more about yourself, or you have to believe that it's worth building culture again somewhere else. And so I think the wedding, plus all of the other questions that she was having about herself, I mean, part of Sid might have gone, well, if my dad is sick, shit, I don't even know if I can be in a new place where I'm not really looked at as a human being, if I'm gonna need to be able to take care of him. You saw some of the dreams that she was having about operating inside all of this chaos and stuff like that. When she eventually talks to him, he insults her. So that tells you what working with him would have been like. If he would have treated her like a person, he might have. He had no interest into why she made the decision. So this is very important. If you're listening out here and you want some advice from an old head, in that situation where you've made a decision not to do something and you're on the other end of the phone with somebody who actually cares about you, they're gonna be interested in what made you make that decision. They're gonna care about why you came to this, particularly if they think that you're making the wrong decision. But if they just. If somebody just looks at you and says what you're doing is dumb, then they've centered themself in a call that was difficult for you to make.

[Charles Holmes]

Or even if they're disappointed doing the. Like, hey, I'm disappointed, but I'm here whenever you need me. If, like, if you ever need help, if you ever need to call me up, text me, whatever, like, I'm here for you. Da, da da da da. Are you excited? You know what I mean?

[Van Lathan]

But even if It's. Even if it's a little bit more cynical than that. It's like, you know, I'm really disappointed. Just what about the bear makes you feel like you can get. You can be the best version of yourself there? What am I not offering you that you see there?

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, right.

[Van Lathan]

Just a sliver of actual concern for how difficult it was for you to make the decision. Just something more than your disappointment, because. No. And you always learn your disappointment is. Is paramount. And it would have been the same way had she disappointed him in some other way, which is going to happen when you're in a working relationship with somebody.

[Charles Holmes]

And also, do you think it's. She met Carmi and everybody at the beef at their worst. And Carmi never hid who he was from her. Like, Carmi's always been an asshole. Richie's always been an asshole. It's always been chaotic. And I tell people all the time, especially when I'm dealing with white folks, I'm like, sometimes it's way easier for me to deal with someone where I'm like, hey, yo, they're all their cards on the table versus someone who is just, like, presenting themselves as an ally. And I'm like. And then when they fuck up, I'm like, this was kind of who you always were. You were just hiding it from me. Versus, I'm like, Carmi has almost worn his heart on his sleeve too much.

[Van Lathan]

He can't help it.

[Charles Holmes]

He can't help just. But be himself. And, yeah, I thought if we're talking about our predictions, what I think I started thinking, like, is this kind of like an anti sitcom where it has the structure of a sitcom, it has the beats. We get the wedding episode, we get. We get the facts. We get Richie saying little stuff like that, but it's not giving us what fans have wanted, which is the Sid and Carmi relationship, or potentially Sid breaking off, Ed competing with Carmi, or, like, all the stuff that we were, like, predicting. I was just like, the show almost went in. The more. I don't wanna say realistic, but the more torn down.

[Van Lathan]

It's about people making weird decisions. And that's what life is. Life is about people making weird decisions. Think about how many times you done talked to somebody and you like, yo, why you do that? And they go, shit, man. How many times have you been in a situation like, why you do that? Or our inability as people to see past the thing that's right in front of us. And like, every year, every moment you spend not talking to somebody that you into it with has to really matter because particularly if that person is in your family. Like, it's your mom, it's your dad, it's your brother. It's something like that. And your feelings are so important and you've centered them to such a degree that you're like, I can't fuck with them, I can't talk to them right now. And then you have no clue when the last time you're gonna talk to that person is or what's gonna happen during the time that you're not fucking with them. Yeah, but we make these decisions every day. And it's in our nature as human beings to not look at the big picture. If we were thinking it's odd, I'm rambling, but I want to land this. If we were thinking of the big picture the entire time we were on this planet, we would not be able to exist. Be an existential dread. Every single second, every single decision. We think and move based upon the input that's right in front of us. And so when I'm watching the show, I'm watching people that are trying to think about the big picture, but they just love. They love. They're mad, they're jealous, they're scared, they're confused. And that is a bigger thing. Like uncle is losing his shirt on the restaurant, but he just wants to be able to take care of these kids. You know what I mean? The decision make, it doesn't make any sense.

[Charles Holmes]

But it's funny because even it does a very sitcom thing where it's just like you have the Ebra plotline where you're just like, is this gonna be the saving grace? The saving grace. And to your point, the person that's actually looking at the bigger picture is the one person that was almost pushed to the side. And you're just like, oh, you're like, we're washing it to the entire. And you're like, almost. These also rans of the bear, the people that aren't doing the fine dining thing are now the ones that I was going to ask you is for the bear to survive. Do you think that they're also saying something about the restaurant industry? How many places do we order from doordash or fucking whatever you use that don't have a physical location anymore?

[Van Lathan]

I think that that's an interesting question. And it makes me think of two different things. Number one, you have to have the place that you're comfortable going in order to have the place that is daring. Yeah, like I like a restaurant here in Beverly hills. It's called steak 48.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

It's a chain. It's got a couple of them, maybe five, six of them around town. But steak 48 never misses, right? I go there. I get the shells and the cheese. They got lobster, they got chicken fried lobster on my daddy. So I go there, right? And I go there when I know, when I know. And this is not like a mom and pops. It's like a fancier steak restaurant, but it's good. So if I have. If it's my birthday, I'm going there. If it's like, I'm going there. Cause I don't want to go to a place with all different types of shit if I want to be certain. But life isn't about certainty. So the question is, how do you juggle comfort with being daring? This season, really, we've seen a lot of people, even in the conversation that Luka has with Tina where he's talking about, how much pressure do you want?

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, how much of your life do you want to be uncomfortable so that you can achieve something? Are you supposed to be comfortable? Is there a time in your life where comfortability is supposed to. Comfortability is even something that you should be trying to attain. And there is just not all the time. We're watching Karmi become more comfortable with situations that were uncomfortable, and we're watching everybody else adapt to pressure. Which last season was more about Carmi putting pressure on everyone and breaking them into little bitty pieces.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And so he's becoming whole because he's becoming more comfortable. And some of these other people are becoming whole because they're adapting to pressure. Marcus is the best chef, one of the top upcoming chefs.

[Charles Holmes]

So this is. Did you see that coming? Cause what I.

[Van Lathan]

And we haven't even talked about. My man who's trying to guess the wines.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, fucking sweeps.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, sweeps. Once again, putting a shit ton of pressure on himself. And every single. I love taking the little breathers with him as he's trying to guess the wines and do all of that stuff.

[Charles Holmes]

I thought. But once again, a character who started off is almost just like a very small part of, like, season one. And to your point, I'm just like, him with the facts. And they're like, he's not skittles ditted out. It also shows you how Carmi has now built a place where these other people can feel ownership of the restaurant and their role in the restaurant. And I think the show is saying a couple things about. Just because I watch a lot of, like, food shows, read a Lot of food shit where it's like for some place like the Bear to exist just financially in 2025, I don't know how many restaurants I wanted to go to in LA where I'm like. My friend's like, you need to try this restaurant. I check temporarily close, closed, closed. We couldn't stay open. Did it. Did it die? Or they'll say, we're going straight. Just delivery. There's no place you can eat here. Did it? Did it? I think even with Marcus's role in the Bear, I might be totally wrong. We might have to ask Dave Chang about this. But I. Have you ever heard that, like, pastry chefs in the. In the culinary world sometimes are looked down on pastry chefs, desserts.

[Van Lathan]

Anything about it?

[Charles Holmes]

Just in terms of. Just, like, you have to think about it. There's one of Marcus in this restaurant, right? There's a whole bunch of other chefs, sous chefs doing everything. Usually it's just Marcus in the corner away, just like, grinding away, kind of just like. But he's making beautiful stuff. We've seen this entire season. People be like, this is delicious, Chef. This is perfect, Chef. And it was interesting when Sugar announced who the best new chef is. Carmi didn't look at Marcus.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Carmi looked at Sid.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And that was even, like, a telling. Where it was just like. Even Carmi hadn't located, like. Had it located, like, you have a best new chef in your restaurant. You were so. You and Sid were so focused on, like, dinner and making that you didn't realize that you had this kind of, like, gem and even Luka, I think in that moment was just like that. I think Luca, that entire time was like, oh, he's got good.

[Van Lathan]

You know what is. Speaking of Marcus, he was only in a couple of scenes in the wedding episode, but Marcus. What's homie's name that Marcus that sold his house for him?

[Charles Holmes]

I forget.

[Van Lathan]

Look that up for me. You guys know I'm not great with names on television shows, but when he's like. When he's talking about the fact that they weren't invited, he goes, fuck, we about to get kicked out of this fucking wedding. I love Marcus also.

[Charles Holmes]

I've been in that exact situation with someone where I'm like, you didn't have. We're not supposed to be. I hate that feeling, bro.

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell you something real quick. I got. I gotta hit y' all.

[Charles Holmes]

Chester.

[Van Lathan]

Chester. I gotta hit y' all with another one real quick. The years 2006, maybe 2007. Nah, it had to be 2006. I'm living in the apartment with Dan and Brett.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Brett Bulitek. Dan. Okay. Our friend Nick. Shep Tech. Shout out to Nick. Who? All these guys are Chicago guys, right?

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

They all went to Columbia College in Chicago. We had a friend named Will. Will was a little bit more plugged into Hollywood stuff than we were.

[Charles Holmes]

Cool.

[Van Lathan]

Will, black guy. The rest of these dudes are white. We go to this party. We go to this party, and we hanging out in the party, and we chilling. Me, Nick's friend Joe. Me, Joe, Dan, Brett, all of them. These are my still in college mode. First got out to la, made a bunch of friends, white boyfriends. And I started looking around and I started looking at people, and I'm like, yo, these people don't want us in this bit. Like, we're at somebody's house. And it was Will was either invited. Will. Jelen is his name. Shout out to Will. Wherever you at, brother. Hit me up. Will was invited or he came with somebody. Will told us to pull up, we pulled up. So we inside the house. We chilling. We having fun. We're meeting people. We're doing the whole thing. We, like, everybody's hanging out. And then people start asking us, like, who are you here with? Like, why are you? Why are you here? And I'm like. And you know, I'm like, yo, cool. I'm good. Whatever. We about to. We'll get the fuck out. I'm out of here. It's cool. We'll leave. So we get up. And I always had it in my mind that I wasn't gonna get caught up in no shit with these dudes. Cause the shit would be different, you know, the dudes would be different. So we're getting ready to leave. And Nick, Shepch, my homie, nice guy, tall dude, White Sox fan, cool guy. I start to see a little static. There's some static. Nick, Brett, Dan, there's some static. I'm like, okay, I'm about to get out the door. So I walk out the door, right? And I'm walking out the door, and there's a hill where we had to walk. The person's house was up on the hill. This is a nice little house. So I'm walking down and I see Nick at the door, pointing at people. Like, pointing at people. Dan and Nick, everybody. And all of a sudden, I see people coming down the hill.

[Charles Holmes]

Stop.

[Van Lathan]

Gigantic brawl. Like, bruh. Huge fucking brawl. Everybody's getting bitty. Fuck no. You crazy. You think I'm about to go up There so the cops could pull up. One dead. Like, the cops killed one guy. I'm sitting down there. I'm looking. Everybody is getting busy. Dan is a fucking wild man. Dan took on, like, three or four people. I gotta actually go get Dan. I'm like, dan, you about to kill this guy. I gotta grab Dan off of the fucking guy. Nick. Joe. Joe gets a gigantic gash over. This is crazy white boy shit. And. But when we was on our way to the party, Joe had on flip flops and. Or one of them had on flip. No, Brett had on flip flops. And Joe was telling Brett, don't wear flip flops. What if we get in a fight? And I was letting. I told him straight up. I was like, if y' all get in a fight, I'm letting y' all know I'm not about to fight for y' all. This bitch.

[Charles Holmes]

It ain't that type of friendship showing up to another person's house. You don't know if left flops.

[Van Lathan]

And by the way, this shows you we showed up. Think of how many people none of us invited. Me, Dan, Brett, Nick, Joe. It's five people.

[Charles Holmes]

Was it that type of body where you could just blend in because there's so many motherfuckers?

[Van Lathan]

Obviously not Charles. So obviously not. I remember looking. Cause at first, we having fun. We playing a little card game. We talking to girls and all of that stuff like that. We're a hit at the party. People are enjoying us at the party. And then people just start to, like, get the fuck out of my house.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, who are you?

[Van Lathan]

Like. And so I'm like. I'm like, all right, cool. I'm going, boom. I'm talking about. When I say a huge brawl. I'm talking about, like, eight or nine people fighting.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

The dudes and eight or nine people fighting Dan. And bust somebody up. Blood everywhere. Like, it was. It was really fun. And that's what.

[Charles Holmes]

Sometimes that's why. Marcus. Marcus, like, I'm. I'm around these white folks.

[Van Lathan]

Around these white folks. And Marcus. We didn't see Marcus again. Maybe we did once or twice in the episode. Because, look, gotta get out of here. I can't. Can't do it, boy. Them was the days. Busby's. We would go to Busby's on Wilshire. We went there right after the Tony Soprano final episode. Anyway, whatever. Final episode of Sopranos.

[Charles Holmes]

What do you. Because we haven't. We have not seen the season finale or the season series finale. I'm very excited. I am just like, it is. So much of this feels like the death of one version of the Bear where I'm just like, is. I might have. That might have been a total misread. But it's like. It seems like Carmi is putting his affairs in order. He is like, I'm no longer a chef. Y' all got this. I'm riding off to the sunset with my girl. Because he was at Frank Lloyd Wright's house in the other episode. Like, he's appreciating art and architecture and the finer things he might be like.

[Van Lathan]

And the conversation between him and Clair Bear we have to talk about in episode nine, where it seems as if they have. He is vulnerable enough with her to where she forgives him and they are back on.

[Charles Holmes]

Did you think that. Are we supposed to believe. Because basically, it's a very romantic scene where he's like. He calls her to talk about. The mom has to hang up. He wants to tell her something again. They call back. She reveals that at one of the parties, Don almost burned down the house. She lost a green sweatshirt. And Carmi finds it. And I was just like, did Carmi keep that after that? Has he been in love with this woman for years? And it's been in his closet? And he's like, I can finally give it back to her.

[Van Lathan]

And her. Him giving it back to her is like him giving himself to her. It's closing the loop.

[Charles Holmes]

It seems like even him cooking his mom that chicken felt like. Is this show trying to say Carmi's journey or what he was chasing? What Tina was like, you don't have to chase the shit anymore. You're the shit. Is this him being like, I don't have to chase being the best chef ever. I can move on and do something else.

[Van Lathan]

Here's the question. It's a good question. Is Carmi's journey to become Mikey. Mikey, who didn't have any excellence professionally, but was the rock of his family, right? Whenever you see Mikey on the show, he's surrounded by family. They're doing something together. He was present, obviously. There was a lot that was weighing on him, obviously, but he was present. Is Carmi's real goal or not his real goal, the real salvation of the character in marrying that part of his brother with still being able to achieve something in his professional life? Because, remember, he asked him, first episode, first scene, when he's talking, he's like, the car rental thing, did you love it? Did you love the car rental thing? And he's like, no, I didn't give a Shit about it. So, I mean, there's enough love to go around. But I think this season has really been about Carmi trying to figure out how he divides himself.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, that is interesting because it is funny how many people are so surprised when Carmi shows up at the wedding or are so surprised that he's seeing his mom. And I was just like, oh, I. I had not really thought of, like, are they surprised? Because Carmi does have that thing in him that Mikey had, which is just like, you make people better.

[Van Lathan]

You make people better. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

People want to be around you. Even if, like, let's say he doesn't leave cooking, is there a version of his life that's okay? Helping being the rock? That is like, all right, we're going to set up little locations so we can get these sandwiches across Chicago. But I don't need to be in the back of the fucking kitchen doing like. Like fucking high cuisine shit.

[Van Lathan]

Is it okay if the bear is never French Laundry? Which, by the way, I can't get anyone who can get me in the French Laundry. Listen, I'll be honest.

[Charles Holmes]

You can't get anybody.

[Van Lathan]

I. It. I've been trying to go get there. I bet Bill been there before.

[Charles Holmes]

Bill can't get us into the French Laundry.

[Van Lathan]

That's a question I don't be wanting to ask him for stuff like that. I don't want him to do stuff like that. I don't want to have to go through Bill. Bill, you know, it's like, if to me, you should never. You know, he's kind of. He started this whole. You don't want to ask him to go to the French Laundry. You want to go. You know who you want. I'll give you an example. You want the Shapiro in your life to get you into the French Laundry.

[Charles Holmes]

Ooh, that's Tommy. Tommy could get you into the fucking French Laundry.

[Van Lathan]

Tommy. Whatever. You want the Shapiro? You want the Shapiro. Somebody that is trying to wine and dine you, that's the person that you want to get into. Want to get you into the French Laundry. Because then you can get them to do the favor and you can dub them after, like, oh, Hollywood Heisman. But if it's the guy who is kind of the dude around here, then you gonna be in a situation with him, and he gonna be like, hey, remember that time I got you in the fresh laundry? You gonna be all right. I'll do the podcast, man. You know what I'm saying? You don't wanna be beholden. You know.

[Charles Holmes]

Fuck good advice. All Right. So wrapping up. We are so bad at predicting what's gonna happen next, but season or series finale, how are you feeling going into the last episode of the Bear? Are you kind of, like, rejuvenated? Cause, like, I've seen. I haven't read any of the reviews. I've kind of been trying to keep myself very pure, but I see people are, like, a little mixed or whatever. How are you feeling about this season and just the Bear as a project in general?

[Van Lathan]

I'm really enjoying it. To me, this season is. I think it's incredible in terms of the growth of the show. I'm laughing, I'm getting really weighty. Important scenes, the artistic vision of the show, the music, all of that. Chicago is still a major character in the show. It's beautiful shots of Chicago. I'm really enjoying it.

[Charles Holmes]

I think sometimes I think what we do with shows like this shows that. Because we don't get as many of these anymore, shows that feel like appointment viewing. I remember that first, second season of the Bear. It felt like finally we all have a show we could talk about again. I think sometimes we have a rocky relationship with them in terms of just, like, our love and hate relationship and pushing back on the thing. But watching the season, what I remembered is I'm like, oh, this show, what it's trying to say about grief, about dealing with people in your family who have substance abuse issues and, like, how do you grow? How do you break cycles of abuse and break cycles of toxicity? The talk that Carmi has with Uncle Lee and then the talk he has with Donna. As someone who has had to have similar talks with many people in my life who either alcoholism or substance abuse, seeing people take their lives and seeing, like, what it does to a family. I know it's not always the most fun thing to watch. And I know this is gonna sound very corny. I feel lucky being able to watch a show that's kind of like, we want to tackle this shit.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, we want to talk about it.

[Charles Holmes]

Even if it's not pretty, even if it always doesn't work, even if one season might not be as good as another. Seeing those actors, seeing the writing, seeing what they're trying to achieve and the emotion of that. I'm not like, I got misty out. I'm just like, they're fucking locating something about all of that that is fucking true. And I'm just like, I'm fucking excited to see how they land the plane. What they do, I don't fucking know. But I thought. I think so. Far. This has been a fucking phenomenal season.

[Van Lathan]

Great. This has been great. Can't wait for the finale.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Yo. That has been your penultimate episode of our coverage of the Bear. We will be back on Monday to talk about the. Talk about the season or the series finale. We honestly don't know. I haven't read anything about it. Thank you so much to everyone behind the boards, Connecticut, Kai, Justin, you all have done such amazing work, and we'll see you soon.