‘The Bear’ Season 5, Episodes 1-4: Let It Rip

Summary

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The Prestige TV Podcast: ‘The Bear’ Season 5, Episodes 1-4 – Let It Rip

Hosts: Charles Holmes & Van Lathan
Date: June 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this edition of The Prestige TV Podcast, Charles Holmes and Van Lathan reunite as the Midnight Boys to dive deep into the much-anticipated final season of FX’s The Bear, focusing on Episodes 1-4 (“Let It Rip”). With razor-sharp analysis and heartfelt anecdotes, the hosts explore the show’s evolving legacy, the performative and emotional intensity driving the main characters, and what it means to find—and let go of—creative family. The conversation covers meta-reflections about the show’s place in modern culture and streaming TV, the psychological toll of ambition, and the profound implications of both holding on and moving on, for both characters and viewers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

A Star-Making Meteor in the Streaming Era (01:48–05:21)

• The Bear’s Unusual Cultural Penetration: Van notes that The Bear “penetrated culture” in a way few modern prestige shows do, spawning slang, Halloween costumes, and breakout stars — “People were adopting some of the slang... it made stars out of people.” (01:48)
• Comparisons to Other Shows:
  • Charles wonders if any recent show has minted as many new stars (“Can you name another TV show...that has minted this amount of stars?” – 02:20), but consensus is only Game of Thrones and Atlanta come close (06:31, 06:38).
• The Binge Model’s Double-Edged Sword: Van argues the “batch drop” hurts star power’s longevity and shifts reactions to mere “one dice” tosses, compressing praise and backlash into a narrow window (04:49).
• Meta Parallels: Charles identifies a meta-quality: the show’s arc mirrors its own trajectory—from underdog surprise to critical darling to backlash lightning rod (02:46–03:36).

Final Season’s Tense Return to Roots (07:39–12:43)

• Back to Containment: All four episodes are directed by Christopher Storer and, unlike previous seasons, stay tightly contained—“reminds me of the first season...we have one meal...we need to prove that.” (08:57–09:49)
• High Stakes, No Respite: Van links the relentless tension—“everything is hanging on the balance in every single fucking scene”—to a toxic drive for greatness (07:39). The characters are constantly “over a sinkhole” with no safety net (08:30).
• Emotional Toll on Cast (and Viewers): Both hosts reflect on the tiring, stressful filming and viewing experience: “I watched this before bed and I was, like, stressed.” (12:43)

The Restaurant as Family & Creative Metaphor (12:58–18:24)

• The Restaurant Fills the Void: Van traces how the restaurant, once Mikey (Jon Bernthal’s character) dies, becomes the “thing that glues these people. And it feels like if the restaurant meets the same fate that Mikey does, everybody disperses again.” (13:25)
• Show as Creative Allegory: Charles suggests Storer uses the restaurant as a metaphor for any creative or team-based endeavor—“You have all these stars and you have all this attention and...what are you doing it for?” (14:35)
• Endings as Inevitable and Necessary: Drawing from an Eben Moss Bacharach interview, Charles notes even actors understand the need to say goodbye to such an intense experience—“but it needs to end.” (15:20)

Carmi’s Existential Crisis & Sid’s Growth (16:42–23:14)

• Limits vs. Ambition:
  • Van sees Carmi as raised to “never, ever, ever accept any limit” — yet now facing them (“Carmi is coming to terms with his limit... Family might be more important. Serenity might be more important.” – 16:42)
• Solo Genius Versus Team Leadership:
  • Charles underscores how Carmi “is almost this little tyrant” whose technical excellence isn’t enough; greatness is “raising the floor of everybody else” (18:39–20:00)
• Sid’s Parallel Evolution:
  • Van notes Sid is a “much better cook with people...a much better cook with ideas. Organization” (20:00)
  • Both hosts admire Sid’s struggle to break free of “Berzado reign” communication—moving from “cursing, yelling, fighting, throwing shit” to true empowerment (21:54–23:13)

Richie’s Self-Discovery & the Value of Belonging (25:44–33:36)

• From Mascot to Anchor:
  • Richie’s journey, post-Forks, is complex—his wisdom and emotional intelligence blossom, but he must find himself beyond the role of family keeper.
  • His speech about the “Verzado family” as the “perfect restaurant” is a series highlight—“Whatever food was in the fridge is what was served and they would never kick you out. And I was like, oh, this is where Richie needs to get.” (25:44)
• Forgiveness, Family, and Letting Go:
  • Charles and Van dissect gut-wrenching scenes about family pain, forgiveness, and whether to “let go” (30:04–33:36). “Forgiveness is unsafe and it's why people are bad at it” (31:28 – Van)
  • The Tina cold open, with her reflecting on the fear of loss, cements the restaurant-as-family theme (33:36).

Realism of Restaurant Politics and Creative Life (35:49–39:02)

• Art Versus Commerce: Van and Charles debate the effectiveness of “existential threat” subplot—Jimmy and the building’s future, the allure/horror of hotel deal realities (35:49).
• True-To-Life Struggles: Charles shares a real anecdote about award-winning chefs adapting to industry pressures—“even if this story’s not working, this is something that’s true.” (36:20)
• The Show’s Refusal to Flinch from Hard Realities: They praise the show for not dodging questions of ownership, money, and survival that haunt any creative enterprise (38:12).

The Power (and Peril) of Scale, Cameos, and Chemistry (39:02–44:40)

• Return to Core Cast: Both hosts love that the season is “stripped back” from last year’s celebrity cameos—“I enjoy spending time with our people in this kitchen” (39:12).
• Big Guest Stars—Gift or Distraction?:
  • They debate when cameos (e.g. John Bernthal as Mikey) enhance versus distract (“Bernthal is different. …He can slip into something like this and slip back out and not dominate...” – Van, 41:49)
  • Too many big names risk breaking immersion (especially when it’s “Brie Larson and that’s Mulaney” – Charles, 42:34)
• Unmatched Lead Chemistry:
  • Charles highlights the unique, electric dynamic between Jeremy Allen White (Carmi) and Ayo Edebiri (Sid): “These are characters I’m like, damn, they family.” (44:40)

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Notable Quotes & Stand-Out Moments

• Van Lathan [07:39]:
  “This is an intense show. Like, some of the best episodes of the Bear are when they just take the NPH sign off of the car and mash down on the gas and just go. And when you catch your breath, the credits are rolling.”

• Charles Holmes [09:49]:
  “By the end of the fourth episode, it’s like, surprise. The critic who’s gonna give us a star or not is coming. And I was like, oh, that is so interesting after building this narrative.”

• Van Lathan [13:25]:
  “The restaurant is now the thing that glues these people. And it feels like if the restaurant meets the same fate that Mikey does, everybody disperses again. But once again, you don’t know if that might not be the best thing for them.”

• Charles Holmes [14:35]:
  “Christopher Storer and his team are using the Bear...to really talk about what it is to do, like, anything creative or anything with a team...whether it’s a success or failure, that family might not be able to stay together.”

• Van Lathan [16:42]:
  “Carmi is coming to terms with his limit. He’s coming to terms with the fact that his talent might not match this breakneck ambition.”

• Charles Holmes [18:39]:
  “Part of greatness is raising the floor of everybody else. So even if you’re not having your best day, you’re ensuring that everybody else is.”

• Charles Holmes [25:44] (on Richie’s emotional growth and speech about family):
  “When he’s talking about the perfect restaurant. And then he’s like, he ends up being like, no, I’m talking about the Verzado family. And...that’s where Richie needs to get.”

• Van Lathan [31:28]:
  “Forgiveness is unsafe and it’s why people are bad at it.”

• Charles Holmes [39:12]:
  “This is a family. This is a sitcom at the end of the day. I enjoy spending time with our people in this kitchen.”

• Van Lathan [41:49]:
  “Bernthal is a guy that is such a... He’s doing a good job in his career as being Jon Bernthal, but also being whoever he is, because he is such a character actor...he can slip into something like this and slip back out and not dominate or take over.”

• Charles Holmes [44:40]:
  “Where I’m like, I can’t think of that many shows in this streaming era who produce this many characters where I’m like, I love Richie, I love Carmen. Like, facts like, these are characters I’m like, damn, they family.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:48] – Show’s cultural impact and unique star-making trajectory
• [07:39] – The emotional and physical toll on characters (and viewers)
• [08:57 to 12:43] – Structure and stakes of Season 5, Episodes 1-4
• [12:58] – The restaurant as family, creative metaphor
• [16:42–18:24] – Carmi’s existential crisis and reckoning with limits
• [20:00–23:13] – Sid’s leadership evolution, shifting kitchen dynamics
• [25:44–33:36] – Richie’s growth, forgiveness, and the family’s reckoning
• [35:49–39:02] – Real-life culinaria: commerce, leases, and survival
• [39:12–44:40] – The gift and curse of the show’s scale, chemistry, and keeping focus on the core cast

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Final Takeaway

Holmes and Lathan deliver a nuanced, emotionally engaged analysis that frames The Bear as not just a cultural phenomenon or culinary drama, but as a sharp, existentially probing story about ambition, togetherness, and the pain and promise of letting go. Their conversation captures what makes The Bear—and prestige TV at its best—so electric: the feeling that these flawed, striving characters are truly family, to each other and to us.

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Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Charles Holmes]

Something comfortable.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Charles Holmes]

I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow.

[Van Lathan]

Nothing went wrong.

[Commercial Announcer]

So what's the problem?

[Charles Holmes]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothly.

[Van Lathan]

I'm waiting for the catch.

[Commercial Announcer]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Charles Holmes]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wow. You need to relax.

[Van Lathan]

I need a knock on wood.

[Charles Holmes]

Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that's good.

[Charles Holmes]

That's close enough.

[Commercial Announcer]

Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may app foreign.

[Charles Holmes]

What is up y'?

[Van Lathan]

All?

[Charles Holmes]

Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast. I'm Charles Holmes, he's Van Lathan. Together we're known as the Midnight Boys. And we're back as we are every single year for this, this little annual tradition of covering the bear. Yeah, little housekeeping before we get into it. Don't worry, y'. All, Rob and Joe will be back this weekend to continue their coverage of Cape Fear. But for right now, we're going to the bear. How are you feeling, man? This is the final season.

[Van Lathan]

Anxious. Anxious. Cause look, here's the thing about the bear. This show just shot out of the gates like a cannon. Right? And it had a weird type of success. A type of success that shows in their first season rarely get. Like people were adopting some of the slang from the bear. It made stars out of people after the bear came out.

[Charles Holmes]

Halloween costumes.

[Van Lathan]

Halloween costumes. It really penetrated culture. Right. For that first season.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, let me ask you this really quick.

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Charles Holmes]

Cause I was thinking about this. Can you name another TV show maybe within the last, I don't know, five, six years that has minted this amount of stars? Like the Pit is a huge show, but I haven't even seen for that cast. It is like Jeremy Allen White is a star. Evan is a star. Aya was a star. Lionel. Lionel was in fucking Project Hail Mary.

[Van Lathan]

Everybody's running. Everybody's running and working. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, it is. That to me is incredible. But watching this final season, what I Realized I was like, oh, the Bear as a show. Weirdly, the narrative of the show followed the trajectory of it, where it's like, the first season is a surprise, second season, critically acclaimed. All of these people are becoming stars. But as the show gets bigger and bigger, we get cameos, celebrities want to be on the show. People start turning against it in the Emmy race. They're like, oh, how is it winning all these comedies? It's sweeping comedy awards. It's sweeping up. It's not even a comedy. And it almost kind of predicted where we're at with tv, where it seems like it's impossible to be a hit show in 2026. It seems like you get one or two seasons and the audience turns on you immediately.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I think to a degree. It's always been like that in the post Sopranos, Mad Men, Prestige Area era.

[Charles Holmes]

So basically, the streaming era.

[Van Lathan]

So basically, the streaming era, it's always. It's difficult, right? It's difficult because of the way you have to put this stuff out. It's difficult because of what the stars want to do now, of what it means to be a star now. Maintaining your narrative and your energy throughout an entire season is this relationship with your audience that used to be a lot more reflexive in years past. Right. And now it's different now. You kind of got to try. And with the Bear, the Bear is still dropping in bulk batches. Right. It's still a year every year. It's still a binge, which that also kind of, to me, is inconvenient to the stars of the show because you get all the Bear at once. You talk about it for a short time. And while that's good for their careers in terms of the movies that they do, they're not buoyed by the success of the Bear throughout a whole summer. Yeah, they don't get to be stars of the Bear for three or four months. They get be stars of the Bear for. For, like, a week, two weeks.

[Charles Holmes]

You look at Widow's Bay, Matthew Reese. I cannot open Instagram or Twitter or go anywhere without, like, an interview, because that show starts, no one's really watching it, and then it's like the heads are watching it. And by the end of, you know, or the beginning of this summer, you're like, people are like, are they gonna sweep the Emmys? And to your point, when it's a batch drop, it is. The stars and the creators almost get all of the acclaim, but they get all of, like, the derision. Whether you love it or hate it, all Comes in one dice.

[Van Lathan]

Well, at this point. And also, like, you know, I'm sure that their careers are so popping. I'll go back to your question in a second. I'm sure that their careers are so popping that they kind of maybe want to be done with the show a little bit. They probably want to put it in the rearview mirror and go try other things. Jeremy, Ellen White has a social reckoning coming out. You know, IO's been everywhere. She's just coming off the Broadway.

[Charles Holmes]

He's going to be in doomsday, ambitions of things.

[Van Lathan]

So these people are all moving and working. We've talked all about them and what they're doing. So maybe they want to be free of this. But. But there is also something that, like, if you make a couple of bad choices, right, if your Bruce Springsteen movie doesn't go well, if people are wondering now whether or not you are a movie star, right. If you're Jeremy Allen White, if your show were running in a more episodic fashion, your show would be able to satiate people a little bit. They'd be able to get back in touch with what they like. And also, to your point, the reaction to the show is different because season three of the Bear didn't go so well.

[Commercial Announcer]

And.

[Van Lathan]

And part of that is because people watched them all at the same time. They didn't have to sit with them. But as far as making stars. No. Except for maybe Game of Thrones. Right. But there was.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, the last time.

[Van Lathan]

The cast is so expansive that you can't compare it to this show.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, maybe also Atlanta. I would say Atlanta.

[Van Lathan]

Atlanta, yeah, Atlanta. Atlanta is there as well. All of them got huge, huge Zazzy beats lakeith Stanfield. Atlanta is definitely one. But Atlanta is very similar to the Bear in that regard to where those stories are contained. That narrative is very tight and very clean, and it's so specific that you can take somebody from that and say, this is how I made them this huge actor.

[Charles Holmes]

And this other thing with this final season, I was wondering, because we're gonna get into the episodes really, really quick. But I realize the other reason I feel like the actors might be maybe ready to say goodbye is I'm like, this must be such a hard show to film. That intensity, those characters just kind of being locked in that space where everybody is frantic, everything is burning down. I was like, dog, this is a family. But after every season, after these four episodes, it's like, God damn, are they putting these motherfuckers stuff?

[Van Lathan]

It's tough. They're putting them through it. And they're also putting the audience through it. This is an intense show. Like, some of the best episodes of the Bear are when they just take the NPH sign off of the car and mash down on the gas and just go. And when you catch your breath, the credits are rolling. This particular season is just. Everything is hanging on the balance in every single fucking scene in these first four episodes. It feels like all of the relationships are hanging in the balance. The restaurant is hanging in the balance. Not just the survival of the restaurant as a culinary, artistic entity, but the survivor of the structure of the building. You could see an episode of the Bear where the whole fucking restaurant crumbles down on Carmi and Sid and everybody dies. Like, that's how the fucking. You know what I'm saying?

[Charles Holmes]

They're over a sinkhole.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they're over a sinkhole. So the question that is different from the first season to now is, is this show still enjoyable? Mm. You know, like the first season, it was insanely enjoyable. Right. But as the show built its narrative and things continue to happen, it's sometimes a tough watch.

[Charles Holmes]

We get into the actual episode, all four directed by Christopher Storer, and they do something that I was like, oh, okay, you're going there. And I've only watched the first four. But through these initial episodes, I'm like, oh, this is contained in a way that reminds me of the first season. Yeah, we're not doing the second, third season thing where it's like, oh, we're going. Sid is going here to get inspiration. And we're having a flashback episode and we have forks and we have this and that. These four episodes are all our time has run out, quote, unquote. We're back where Carmi, in the finale of the last season, gave the partnership to Sid. He gave it to Richie, said, I quit. And in these four episodes, we're on a one way track of, like, we have one meal.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

We need to prove that. And by the end of the fourth episode, it's like, surprise. The critic who's gonna give us a star or not is coming. And I was like, oh, that is so interesting after building this narrative. Whereas you see Brie Larson in this, you see Bob Odenkirk in this, almost stripping the narrative back and making it this family in this cursed restaurant. What are they gonna do? I found fascinating.

[Van Lathan]

It's fascinating specifically because of your journey with the characters. You get to a point in this particular season where you're not sure what you want for them, which is an awesome place to be. With characters like Game of Thrones, you got to a point to where you didn't know who you wanted to win. You know, who you thought was going to win. But the show got to a point to it was like, well, who do I want to win? Do I want Dany to win? Do I want Jon to win? Like, do I want Cersei to win with everything that she's been through? I didn't. But do I want. Right now, I don't know what I want to happen to the restaurant. It seems as if they would all live freer, fuller lives if they were apart, that they're asking too much of each other. But it would also seem like such a profound disappointment for them not to have a 15, 20 year run with the restaurant. But inside of all of that, man, for this little restaurant during this rainstorm at this particular time, we're only through episode four. The stakes just seem so high that I can't relax with any scene. And it's even the Sopranos, which is a show that was about a guy who, like, oftentimes kills people. They gave you a time to relax sometimes. And these four episodes, they didn't give you very much.

[Charles Holmes]

Leisurely TV show because we start, we're like, all right, it's torrential downpours, it won't stop raining. The fucking pipes are bursting. The basement is flooding, People are falling through the roof. They're over a sinkhole. They're looking to see who has the air rights, can they build a hotel? And even Uncle Jimmy basically has lost three fourths of his fortune. He's off with a new character, cheese and computer, trying to figure out, do we have the air rights to this place? Because they're realizing, like, no one wants to buy a restaurant, especially one that's gonna sink into the ground in the next five or 10 years. So he's like, can I sell this and make it a hotel? There's not one character throughout this entire four episode stretch who is in a good place. Even Marcus, coming off of this big accolade, best New Chef is feeling it now. He's almost becoming a little Carmi in a way where it's like he's now trying to prove to his father. He's like, this might be the only chance I get. And I'm like, that is a very, very interesting place to put all these characters. But to your point, I was like, I watched this before bed and I was, like, stressed. I was having. I was just like, oh, fuck. I feel kind of.

[Van Lathan]

I Mean, you know, as you watch the show, as you see things happening, you realize one thing. In these first four episodes, this restaurant is the thing that connects these characters that we love.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

The prelude to this show is some type of. Of story or understanding of Carmi's family. Right. The idiosyncrasies of that family, the absurdities of that family. Right. But it starts and is oriented around the death, or at least dealing with the death of the person that seemingly kept that family together.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. Mikey. Mikey.

[Van Lathan]

So Mikey kept that family together. So the question then became, what keeps that family together now? And it wasn't together when we first got there. When we first started with them, it wasn't together at all. They had all of the bones and the skeletons of that same family that Mikey kept together, but everything was gone. Then this restaurant comes, and not only does it bring the Brazado family back together. Right? It brings them back together. Mom ends up coming back into the fold. The sister comes back. Everybody's together again. Right. It creates a new family. And the restaurant takes the place of Mikey. The restaurant is now the thing that glues these people. And it feels like if the restaurant meets the same faith that Mikey does, that everybody disperses again. But once again, you don't know if that might not be the best thing for them. But for me, I don't want to see this family that I've spent these years with like, end up the same way that they were when we first found them, which is dismembered from one another in different places. Not just physically, but also emotionally.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, watching this season. Cause it's always been there, but it was even more pronounced because Sugar, at one point is kind of describing the plight of the restaurant. It's just like, restaurants are a terrible fucking business. They're impossible to keep open. And as I was watching this, I'm like. Part of me feels like Christopher Storer and his team are using the Bear, the restaurant, Carmi, Sid and everyone's plight to really talk about what it is to do, like, anything creative or anything with a team where it's like, if you're a championship basketball team, you win the fucking championship the next day. What are people talking about? How are they gonna keep it together? How are we gonna pay all these people? When you're on a successful movie or even a bad, you're like, oh, we're a family. We are pushing this boulder up a hill for eight months a year, however long you make the thing. And whether it's a success or failure, that Family might not be able to stay together. And watching these episodes, I'm like, oh, I feel like Christopher Storer almost is going through that in almost a meta way where it is like, you build this restaurant, you build something successful, and you have all these stars and you have all this attention and you have all these Emmys and. And at the end of the day, what are you doing it for? Are you doing it for a star? Are you doing it so you can show off your cooking skills? Or it's like, even if you are doing it for family. I was reading this very interesting interview with Eben Moss Bacharach where he was talking about how much the bear has changed his life and how much he loves this show. And the interview ends with, but it needs to end. And he did not say that in a way that he disliked the show or that he has any resentment, but it was a level of. I'm like, oh, I can't imagine what it is like being on a rocket ship like that for this long and being like, part of my life has stopped. Because you feel it with Carmi, where it's like, I don't know whether to believe Carmi or not. Has he fell out of love with cooking or is he like, for me to become a better person, I need to get out of here.

[Van Lathan]

I think the thing with Karmi is. What I am getting from what I'm watching from Carmi is that Carmi thought, and he was trained as a chef to never, ever, ever accept any limit. Like, it's a creative endeavor. What are the limits on Steven Spielberg? What are the limits on Martin Scorsese? What are the limits? They have no limits, right? They take us to different galaxies and universes. They take us inside of our own communities to underbellies and secret societies and people that we don't know are there. Exploration of the Mafia, which is the secret society, and uncover all of these things. There's no limit to it. And the way Carmi was raised up in cooking is there was no limits there either. There were no limits to what you could accomplish. There were no limits to what you had to sacrifice, which is a part of the game, right? And he kept pressing upon everyone to think bigger, to go harder, to try more, to stretch yourself and push yourself. And Carmi is coming to terms with his limit. He's coming to terms with the fact that his talent might not match this breakneck ambition that everybody else has. Family might be more important. Like serenity might be more important. He also might be just telling himself that he Might get to a point to where he thinks that that is the case for him, but it's really not right. He might just be so beaten down by that he doesn't know that he'll never, ever, ever be happy not being the man at that restaurant and waking up at 2 o' clock in the morning trying to figure out recipes.

[Charles Holmes]

But it was interesting because he has that talk with Richie, right? Where Richie is basically like, it was so funny. Cuz as someone who wrestled in high school, I felt it very. I felt it very. Richie was just like, dog, that's a solo.

[Van Lathan]

It's a solo sport, bruh.

[Charles Holmes]

And you got your ass kicked. It's. And what I find so interesting about Carmi is there's this level of he comes back in the first season and he is almost this little tyrant where he's not wrong. The restaurant is fucked up. The books are fucked up. It cannot exist like this. It cannot survive like this. And Richie being the one, like, we are out of gas, right? We need teamwork. You have been trying to do fucking backflips and show us how much you learn and how much you can do. And I'm telling you right now, for us to get where we are. I think even Marcus says it, where it's like that free jazz moment, whether you're playing football or soccer, where it's like, you might be the man, you might be the ace, you might be the person that can take us to the promised land. But there's a part when you're great of letting go and being like, part of greatness is raising the floor of everybody else. So even if you're not having your best day, you're ensuring that everybody else is. Cause like, you see Sid in these episodes, being overwhelmed as a leader, being like, oh, now I'm the person who has to deal with someone falling through the roof and telling this person to do that. And I'm like, oh, even Carmi is in the wings being like, damn, she's become a little Carmi.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, she is. At the same time, it's just obvious that there's a part of this that she's much better at than him. Like, he is a much better cook with utensils and recipes. And she's a much better cook with people. She's a much better cook with ideas. Like, she's a much better cook with organization. It's interesting that I didn't know that in a restaurant, everybody called each other chef, right? And I think that I didn't understand it for the full run of this show. And I understand it now because everybody's responsibility and that type of environment is so through the roof. Everyone's intensity level is so through the roof. That bestowing that title on everyone is an understanding of how much everybody is bringing and that there's this gigantic shared load to lift. Right? Load to lift. I didn't just say loads. I don't. You know what I'm saying? Don't play me. And so now I see it, and now I'm seeing her with the capability. Because maybe he's a little bit burned out to lift more than him to empower people in a way that he can't. He calls everyone chef, but doesn't feel like he really means it.

[Charles Holmes]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

He can hear how hot the stove is. He can hear it. He can hear how hot the stove is. Turn around. Turn that down a little bit. He's used to micromanaging things because he's wearing it all. Is there a chance that when Carmi gives some of his burden away, that he'll be more comfortable where he's at? Is that the true end of this show? Carmi being comfortable in his own skin somewhere? Because it doesn't seem like he's been anywhere else he's been.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, it's also like that burden of that type of genius that Carmi has, where very rarely is the most talented person in the room the best leader.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Charles Holmes]

And when you look at someone like Sid, you're like, not only does she have the ability to cook on a similar level as Carmi, she has a thing that he doesn't, which is like, I can empower everybody else in this room. Tina or Richie or everyone else. She, like, you even see it in these first four episodes being like, I'm trying not to curse. I'm trying not to yell. She is like, you see her struggling with, how do I go from the Berzado reign, the Karmi reign of the way I communicate with everyone is cursing, yelling, fighting, throwing shit. To a place of, like, no, we're a family. How do we get to what Marcus is talking about? That free jazz moment of everybody is so talented. If there's trust in this kitchen, we are going to survive. And maybe it's only for a night, maybe it's only for a week, but we're surviving instead of being in a war zone. Cause there's even a moment where, like, she goes, why'd you design it like this? I don't know. Part of me, I was thinking, I was like, I think that's how it was designed. In the other places he was at, right? He never thought about why it was designed that way in these Michelin restaurants. He was just going, this is how you need to cook. And for Sytch he's like, but that's not how our team runs. You weren't thinking of our team, just

[Van Lathan]

doing what he was programmed to do.

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[Charles Holmes]

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[Van Lathan]

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[Charles Holmes]

Yep. Headers.

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[Charles Holmes]

I want to talk about Richie. Because Richie also is such a fascinating character in this final season. Because in the same way that now he's almost more, and maybe he always was more emotionally intelligent than Carmi. His last evolutionary leap is who am I without the quotes, right? Without the Michael Mann movies, without the suit, without me trying to impress upon you how much I've read and learned after Forks. What I think is interesting is for most shows, Forks would be the moment where Richie becomes this self actualized being that cannot do any wrong. And you realize, oh, he's tipped over almost too far into like, no, you need to lead in your own way. Cause it was so funny when he's having that speech. Originally I thought he was talking about the original beef. When he's talking about the perfect restaurant. And then he's like, he ends up being like, no, I'm talking about the Verzado family. And I'm talking about those Sundays at their crib where you could come over as you are. Whatever food was in the fridge is what was served and they would never kick you out. And I was like, oh, this is where Richie needs to get. He doesn't need to recreate the beef. He needs to recreate the family that, to your point earlier, gets fractured once Mikey dies.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's fractured. Once Mikey dies. It doesn't exist anymore. There's nobody to hold it down. Carmi has left long before that. Their mother is not in a position, from an emotional standpoint, to be that rock for everyone. She actually stresses everybody out. And so they're kind of splintered, right? And Richie, whose stability was in that family mostly is kind of on an island. And he was the slowest one to change in all of this stuff. Him and Sid almost killed each other, right? The slowest one to change. But now he has become the rock. He has become the rock for them. Richie's now a character that whenever he opens his mouth, like I expect wisdom because he's really had to look at himself and evolve. All of this is happening. Everything is wet. This is a loud four episodes. This is a frantic four episodes. There's an episode where. Let me ask you this, did you laugh? There were a couple of times that I laughed, but I didn't really. This four episodes to me is not great proof positive for the whole bear is a comedy contingent.

[Charles Holmes]

So I largely just don't care about whether the bear is a comedy or not. Conversation. But to answer your question, I didn't laugh, but I was almost happy I didn't because I was like. These four episodes did the interesting thing where I'm like, oh, the creators are trying to like excise something. They are trying to this season. I was just like, oh, I was trying to put my mind like my head in like Joanna Kahlo, Christopher Storer, the showrunner, co creator of this. And I was like, like I said in the beginning, to me, this season feels like what happens when you finally make the thing? When Eben Moss Bacharach was talking about the beginning of the bear, he was just like, we thought this was the red headed stepchild. Nobody thought that this was gonna be a big thing. It was coming out around a time where it was like Disney had the Mandalorian and all the MCU TV shows and you have this thing that's the bear that's like this indie comedy. And almost throughout its run, the. The bear has not only become more ambitious, it's become a little bit more prickly. And to me, these four episodes were a little bit more prickly, where it was like. And I could. One of the moments was interesting when Sugar is talking about her mother with Cardi and they both say something that is like you never want to say to people. But I've had this conversation as someone who has addiction that runs in their family where it's that thing where it's like, oh, you kind of want them to fuck up. Not because you want them to hurt themselves, but because this person has let you down so many times before.

[Van Lathan]

You want them to hit rock bottom.

[Charles Holmes]

The feeling of like. Cause I've had that feeling where it's like, I've been disappointed by this person so much. And when you have a long space of time where they haven't and they're showing you that new version of themselves, there is that thing where it's like, oh, I don't wanna forgive you. Yeah, the hurt is so much for me to forgive you. I have to let some things go That I will never. That will never be right. And I was like, oh, that's interesting, because I'm like, through that character. What they're really talking about is just, like, this family and the bear as an institution. For Carmi to let go, he has to realize, your brother OD'd. You're never gonna get that one last conversation with him. You're never gonna get those years back with your mom where she was the perfect version of. You're never gonna get the version of the beef that you wanted. If you remember from the early seasons, Carmi didn't wanna leave. Carmi wanted Mikey to want him to stay there. And it's interesting that I'm like. That's a very prickly concept of. To your point of, like, not just Carmi, but all of them. Can you let go? Like, are you healthier if you let the family go? If you let the business. If you let the business die? Or do you fight tooth and nail to keep it alive as long as possible?

[Van Lathan]

Profound things you're saying there. Forgiveness is unsafe and it's why people are bad at it. But it's particularly unsafe if you're doing it for the other person. Yeah, if you're doing it for yourself, then it's not unsafe. It's actually therapy. Everyone in this particular family, their safety was together. When they were pulled apart, they realized how unsafe they really were because they're so intense. What Richie was kind of talking about with any of these characters. Now, that's the thing that bothers me. We start this show with Tina talking to her husband. We start the entire season with Tina talking to her husband. And she's talking about what she stands to lose. Man, that's a really important scene. It's a really important scene because, you know, a show goes away, the bear comes back every single year, but the show goes away for a little while. And you forget what the show is about. You forget what's supposed to happen. Like, you know, house of the Dragon is back. And I'm like, okay, where are we at? What happens? What's going on? There's a lot that's happening. But when she goes, you know, this is my family. She doesn't wanna lose them. She doesn't wanna be in a situation where she's not working with them ever again because it won't be like this again. That's what the show is about now. And so all of the stuff that people are talking about when you can choose not to forgive your mom if you want, but you only got one Mom. So if you don't choose to forgive your mom, then you're not choosing to have a mom no more. You can choose not to give it all to the restaurant and give it all to your friends. You can choose to micromanage. You can choose. But once it's gone, it's gone. It's not coming back. Every hug is one less hug. Every day is one less day. So when you're in something and it's good and it's working and it feels like it's where you supposed to be, what are you willing to do? What are you willing to sacrifice for both personally and professionally to stay there? Are you willing to sacrifice money, time? Are you willing to sacrifice years off your life for something that's perfect or something that works for you?

[Charles Holmes]

That Tina scene, why I loved it is I'm like, no one really prepares this for you when you join the workforce. But I've had jobs like this where I'm like, I hated the job. I hated being a fry cook. But then I'm like, damn, I spent three years with y'. All. Like, it's. This is a family. We're never gonna have this. When I was at Rolling Stone, there was a moment where it was like I felt like Tina, where I'm like, you wait so long to get to this place, and you're working with people who helped get you there. And the minute you leave to your point, damn, we never going for work. Drinks like this. We could get drinks later, but it's never. We not leaving the same office. We not fighting the same wars. I'm gonna have to go do it again. I'm gonna have to make a new family. I'm gonna have to use my skills and build this all over. And I don't know where it's gonna end this season, but it's a fascinating question of, like, to your point. I think a lot of the. I think as important as the bear is for everyone, Marcus might be better off going to Copenhagen. When you see Luca is like, hey, I got my Copenhagen boys coming. Like, da, da, da, da. He's like, no, I got to work here. I had this thought. I was like, marcus, you're the best new chef. You're like, there's a life out there for you. You probably would be more successful in Copenhagen. I look at someone like Tina, where I'm like, tina, you could go work anywhere now. And it's like that push and pull is a very, very human.

[Van Lathan]

Because you don't know. You don't know if you're you don't know if it. Maybe what she's describing is comfort. Maybe she needs to be uncomfortable. Maybe this entire run of her life working at the Beef, changing over and learning new skills at the Bear is so that she could go and live her best life. You don't know. Or maybe her best life is right inside that restaurant with the leaky pipes. You're not sure. It's scary. All of it's scary. Is the stuff outside the restaurant working for you, like with computer and them going to try to get the permits or whatever. And all of that stuff is them being the sort of existential threat of the Bear. Commerce, money, what has to happen. Structures, legitimately, it's art versus blueprints.

[Charles Holmes]

It's not working for me fully, but I will say, as someone. One time I had to like, go on Good Morning America for some reason. And there was this chef, and it was like before the, it was before, like the Super Bowl. And he was like teaching, like, this is like an award winning chef who had like a popping restaurant in New York. And he was teaching all the hosts how to make like, nachos. And we're like, we're chilling in the back room. And at one point I go, why do you do, why do you do this? Not, like, looking down on it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And he goes, bro, let me tell you, I've had an award winning restaurant packed out, gets closed. And what I will tell you is I'm like, this is the shit you gotta do. He's like, you know where I'm working now? And I'm like, where? He's like, I'm working at a hotel. And when I was watching this, I was like, what? And he's like, I have an award winning restaurant now that I'm the head of that's in a hotel. And you want to know why? The hotel is basically offsetting everything with this restaurant. So I get to cook, I get to make all this fancy shit. And in my off time, I go on Good Morning America, I go on the Food Network, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he's like, restaurants are really, really hard in these cities. New York, Chicago, L.A. or whatever. He's like, there's a reason why so many great restaurants are attached to hotels. And it was like, that was a moment where I'm like, even if this story's not working, I'm like. I was like, oh, this is something that's true. This is something that you could tell the creators, like Stora Kahlo, all of them are like, have Talked to chefs and are like, yeah, this is the evolution of fine dining, of all this shit, where it's like. It's the same thing with IBRA and the franchising, where I'm like, yeah, that's the less sexy part of the show to me. I don't know if it's working, but it is important to have it there, because this show is not the Wire. But there were moments in the Wire where they are, like, showing you the foundation of how this entire thing is built. And I think that's what this show has always been good about, where it's like, even if it's not working fully, I'm like, oh. I'm like, would Carmi and Sid want to run a version of the bear that's underneath a hotel?

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

Would Carmi want to actually franchise this place? Would he be good at it? Is that. And I'm like, when we. Even when you look at careers in, like, Hollywood, I'm just like, damn, every director now got a fucking podcast. It's hawking this, hawking that. And I'm like, I'll ask you, I'll throw it back to you. Would the show be as realistic if it flinched away from these moments of, like, who owns the building? How much does it cost? Cause I've also talked with people who have owned restaurants before. It's like, people don't wanna buy restaurants. It's a fucking crapshoot. Not just owning a restaurant, but the building of. There's oil, there's water, there's leaks, there's, like. There are fucking fireheads. Like, it's just like, yeah. So, yeah, to answer her question, eh, a little bit. But what is working about this season? I will say I'm so glad we don't have the celebrity cameos.

[Van Lathan]

We haven't as of yet.

[Charles Holmes]

As of yet, Yeah. I think it has upped my appreciation because I'm just like, guys, this is a family. This is a sitcom. At the end of the day.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I enjoy spending time with our people in this kitchen. And to your point, I think when it's, like, about everything outside. Cause I was. I don't know if you watched it. I watched the Garry episode with Eben Moss Bacharach and Mikey and John Bernthal.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Good episode. I'm glad that they did not tack it onto the season.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

In a final season. I want it to be about Carmi, Sid, Richie, like, Tina, Marcus, like, in this fucking kitchen.

[Van Lathan]

I think you're right. And I think what you said earlier about the show being this Indie darling. And being up against all of these big, huge streaming shows on Marvel, Disney, whatever. And it cutting through is kind of like when your favorite band has that one gigantic song, you know, and then it's like, it was funny. No Doubt, their first album comes out and it doesn't do anything. And then they dropped Tragic Kingdom. And I think Tragic Kingdom sold like 13 million albums or something like that. They go crazy. So eventually you get to the point to where, like, you know, no Doubt Records are being produced by Timbaland and stuff, you know, and that's not diss to Timbaland. That's just saying that, like, once you get big, you feel like you gotta stay big.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And how do you do that? Well, that's when you get a John Cena cameo. I thought the Brie Larson stuff really worked. But even still, even some of the episodes that we don't look at as cameos, like all the family stuff, it's like, look at all these people on the Bear. And not only that, but those people. Those people want to be on the Bear now because the Bear is not just a show that is star making for the people that are on the show. It's a show that if you go on the show, it's star making. It rejuvenates your star. Like, it got to a point to where Seinfeld made a bunch of stars. Then it was a big deal for stars to go on Seinfeld, to go on Friends, to go on the Cosby Show. It becomes something that is the home for big stars, that works better other places than it does on a show like this. Because it's so intimate. It's so many people in so many rooms, and they're talking so much. And when John Cena is talking to me, John Cena's talking to me. Right. But when Jeremy Allen White is talking to me, Carmi's talking to me. That's what's important.

[Charles Holmes]

But I think, and this is the gift of the curse, when they revealed Bernthal was Mikey, that worked well.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, because Bernthal is different. Like, when they reveal Bernthal as Mikey, first of all, it's a little different. Bernthal is a guy that, like, is such a. He's doing a good job in his career in being Jon Bernthal, but also being whoever he is, because he is such a character actor. Bernthal plays leads. He plays on the side of people. He can slip into something like this and slip back out and not dominate or take over. It's. Jon Bernthal is a part of this. So he is. That's a good point. But he is a unique actor and a unique talent. And in that, you can orient a story around him, or you can just sprinkle him on top and make your shit better or make your shit batshit crazy, depending on what he wants to do. Like. And so.

[Charles Holmes]

But when you have Mulaney, I thought Mulaney is great. In the Fishes episode, he's so funny. But I'm like, that's Brie Larson and that's Mulaney.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's different. And once again, this show also has so many smaller, brilliant characters. The facts, like, are such great characters and fit into this world so well. You want more of those guys. You don't want to sacrifice any time with those guys for anybody else that you're used to seeing on Instagram or something.

[Charles Holmes]

Ibrah. That was when I laughed, when IBRA kept going, when he started, like, I'm so fuff. What? He's like, I'm not going to be intimidated by these blue eyes.

[Van Lathan]

Right? Yes. I was like, also, the Carmi Sid dynamic, which I feel like the show was sacrificing, is really working again in this season. It's back to almost like first season Carmi Sid vibes.

[Charles Holmes]

That's why I like these first four episodes when they. Even that moment where she's like, can you give me a little space? Yeah, a little more space.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Charles Holmes]

I was just like, these two. And it's like a big thing. Part of this was like, oh, are they in love? This and that? And I'm like, no. I think what people were actually reading into is that those two performers, Jeremy Allen White and IO, have such chemistry.

[Van Lathan]

They have great chemistry.

[Charles Holmes]

They can hold the camera. And it's like, I think that's even when people think about their movie careers. I'm just like, what we were actually seeing in those first. That first two seasons of the Bear is like something magical that almost. That is so hard to happen. Where it's like, damn, it is so hard to find two actors who are this effortless together. Where you feel like not only they, the characters, these people have known each other for a lifetime. And that's actually. If we wrap up, that's what I will end up missing about the Bear, which is like, we could talk about the ups, the middling, the downs or whatever. Where I'm like, I can't think of that many shows in this streaming era who produce this many characters where I'm like, I love Richie, I love Carmen. Like, facts like, these are characters I'm like, damn, they family.

[Van Lathan]

They family.

[Charles Holmes]

Cousins. All right, guys, that has been our first episode for the last season of the Bear. We're going to be back with the next four episodes very, very soon. Make sure you tap in with Joe and Rob because they will be continuing their coverage of Cape Fear this weekend. And a special shout out. As always, I want to say this. Kai, our producer dog, he's too big for us now. They got this motherfucker on the watch.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Kai fucks me.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm saying they got him on prestige. He won't even pick up my phone calls no more.

[Van Lathan]

Well, look, I'll tell you this, Kai, never forget where you come from.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, we'll see y' all later. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses. Setup required. Compatibility and availability varies.

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[Charles Holmes]

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