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Hello and welcome to the Prestige TV Podcast. I am Nora Princioti and I am here with Mallory Rubin. Mallory, if you were suddenly deceased via oncoming horse and carriage.
- [01:00]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [01:01]
B
On the streets of Manhattan, what I need to know is would you donate to me, your country pile, so that I could live a life of some secret, but hopefully a happy one in private and with your memory all around me.
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A
Let me say this. I don't currently have a cottage or a summer home of any sort of. If one day those circumstances should change, I am happy to gift it to you. Following my untimely exit from this mortal coil. It's yours.
- [01:33]
B
Wow.
- [01:33]
A
Wow.
- [01:34]
B
Huge stuff. Great start for me. Uh, we are, of course talking about the Gilded Age. Season 3. It has come to an end. What a season it has been. Oh, yeah, we've had a lot of time spent with mothers and daughters, fathers and sons, the Russells, as always, moving and shaking. Mal, I know that you, like me, have been with the Gilded Age since day one, but talk to me a little bit about season three, how it sits with you, what you felt like Julian Fellowes and all of our friends on 61st street and in Newport were really giving us this year, this time around.
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A
Let me just say it's a thrill to be here with you today to talk about this wonderful television program. Thank you for taking your rightful place at the head of the table, just. Just like Ada.
- [02:28]
B
And hosting today, a local medium actually recommended that we do this podcast.
- [02:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, she. She. She kept getting your fiance's name wrong. But, you know, it's. It's definitely all legit. Totally fine and normal.
- [02:42]
B
He actually is Italian, so that would.
- [02:44]
A
Have worked out for her.
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B
Would have been fine.
- [02:46]
A
Yeah. In your case. Spoiler, obviously, for all of the Gilded Age. The finale, Season three finale. All of season three. All of the Gilded Age so far. Listen, I thought season three absolutely ruled. This was just a great season of television. I've had a blast with the Gilded Age since day one. And I have a number of people in my life, some close colleagues, close friends who really enjoy the show. I think many of whom were previously Downton Abbey enthusiasts, but not necessarily all of whom. And you know, we were just talking with our, our producer, Kai Grady, before beginning the recording about how it really feels like the Gilded Age. Not just this season, but I think particularly the back half of the season in recent weeks leveled up from a deep and sincere passion to those who have had the privilege of consuming it to this is a thing. Like it's a thing. Every week the viewership is going up. People have started to discover the joy of the Gilded Age. I can't wait to get into everything that happened in the finale in this season. And I would just say this was my favorite season so far. The show is great. I'm thrilled that more people have discovered it. And because I've already issued the spoiler warning, I feel free and safe to say right now at the top, even though we'll get into it in more detail. George Russell, surviving George Russell not succumbing to his gunshot wound is maybe the most relieved I've ever been about anything that's happened in a television show. I don't know what I would have done if I had had to say goodbye to George Russell. It was not something that I was prepared to confront. Obviously we got a goodbye of a different sort which we'll talk through.
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B
Indeed.
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A
But I am in a state today of euphoria because our dear George has Cotton still inside of his station. It's his backup and Adam doing great.
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B
I actually, I imagine that is historically accurate, but the like four kind of haphazard stitches.
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A
Nora, what's your like overall relationship to where we are with the Gilded Age right now? How are you feeling coming out of the season three finale?
- [04:51]
B
I like you think this has been my favorite season. I have always loved this show. This has been the one where more than any other, I've just felt like I look forward to Sunday night so much and look forward to getting to find out what's going to happen so much. I do think this show is always in a funny kind of sweet spot in some ways of you don't necessarily watch it for a distinct point of view or something that they're trying to communicate. You watch it for the bustles and the hats and the one liners and the balls and, you know, what is Carrie Coon gonna do next as her ambition? Yeah, closer and closer to the top, but also closer and closer to possible Destruction of everything that she's built along the way. But every once in a while, I do feel like the show is flirting with, like, really having something to say. And that's not necessarily. Like, I. I don't. That's not what I judge the Gilded Age on. That's not really why I'm here. But I do feel like, particularly towards the end of this season, I just felt like little extra layer of intrigue of, how is this gonna work out? Are these things gonna work out so neatly and tied up with a bow for these characters, as historically on the show, they tended to, and for the most part, they continued to.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But, of course, this is the first season of all three where our girl Bertha does not end.
- [06:23]
A
Oh, my God.
- [06:24]
B
In a moment of triumph. Which makes, I think, what's gonna happen for season four and how everything goes on for all these characters really, really interesting to me. And also just makes it interesting from the point of view of. Okay, so what do these characters ultimately get punished for or not punished for? However, Mal, what I think that we should spend this time together doing.
- [06:48]
A
We.
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B
Will take a little page out of Ward McAllister's literal book, and we will check in on society as we have found it.
- [06:56]
A
That's great. This is great. Yeah.
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B
And I thought that we could go through our favorite characters, our favorite character plots.
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A
Fantastic.
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B
Which really don't intersect with each other all that much. Sometimes they do, but everybody's just kind of doing their own thing on the Gilded Age. But what I wanted to do was go from what feels like we've ended in a place of resolution to the ones where it feels a little bit more up in the air.
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A
Love this. Let's do it. Will society, as we have found it, also be beautifully bound in that lovely blue casing, or.
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B
I like. I like to think that it will be, and I like to think that it's going to cause as much turmoil and as much of a stir. And if I get disinvited from fewer than two balls as a result of this, I will feel that we have ultimately failed in our duties here.
- [07:53]
A
Listen, we're three seasons into the Gilded Age, and more than one of those three seasons has ended with a march toward a ball. Two of the three seasons have ended with the march toward a ball or multiple balls. So it's a big deal to be disinvited from a ball. As you know, the stakes are high. What did Ward McAllister expect? That's like. We're not going to talk a ton about Ward today. But let's just get that out of the way. What did he expect?
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B
What did he think was going to happen?
- [08:15]
A
My goodness, talk about reaping what you sow.
- [08:17]
B
Allude to the Russell's unhappiness. You're coming at Mrs. And her family. He, you know, he flew too close to the sun. He thought that he was society, so he didn't think that society could take him out. But I'm sorry, Nate. Ethan Lane, your mustache will not save you.
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A
I know. Tragic. This is tragic.
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B
Let's kick things off with two of my favorite dames, Aunt Agnes and Aunt Ada. Legends, icons, both starting the season in moments of transition. Right. Aunt Agnes, destitute, lost all her money as a result of Oscar's troubles. Aunt Ada, suddenly flush with cash.
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A
Yep.
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B
Loaded, but without a husband. And grieving.
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A
Yes.
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B
And. And seeking answers. Which leads her from another plane.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yes.
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A
Yes. As one does.
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B
Which leads her to a friend of Mrs. Bauer who tells her that she is communicating with Reverend Forte from the great beyond. Mallory, have you ever had any experiences with speaking to those who have. Have passed us?
- [09:36]
A
Thanks for asking. I haven't. I did the other day. Maybe some of our viewers and listeners can. Can tell that I've been riddled with COVID for a couple weeks. And I did the other day say to Adam, my husband, feel like I keep seeing like a specter out of the left side of my eye. Do you think the house is haunted? And he was like, I think you're like right in the middle and you should take a nap, so we might.
- [10:04]
B
Want to check your temperature.
- [10:05]
A
That was the closest I'd gotten to any sort of ghostly interaction. This, I think. Here's what I would like to say about Agnes and Ada before we dive into the particulars of season three, because they are, to me, emblematic of. Of not only the joys of the show, but what I think is the. And I mean this is a sincere compliment, like, incredible magic trick of the show, which is that almost nothing happens on it ever. Like, and that might sound like a critique, but that's not how I mean it.
- [10:40]
B
One could argue that the entire arc of these two is that they switched.
- [10:43]
A
Seats at the table exactly the entire. For many of the characters. Now, I will say I think the season three finale and the end of season three in general was a little bit against type inside of the overall flow of the series in the sense that actually quite a bit happened. We had a lot of major plot developments from multiple characters, but broadly speaking, an entire season of the Gilded Age will orient around a box at an opera house. And we're riveted right now. What happened with Ada in season two, I think, was a little bit of an outlier in the sense that, like, for many characters, things move quite slowly. And then for Ada, in the span of mere episodes, we go from lifelong spinster to meeting Luke falling in love, getting married, Luke developing a mortal illness and dying. Like, some seasons, it's all about one person moving one seat at the table. Some seasons, an entire life is lived in four hours and then.
- [11:47]
B
And also leaving her an undisclosed fortune.
- [11:49]
A
An undisclosed fortune. So this, like, shift in the dynamic. I'm curious what you think. Like, obviously, it's an ensemble cast, so in some ways it defies, like, the even just idea of a true protagonist. I would say that the Russells are the main characters of the show, with the Van Ryjens, with the Marian, Agnes, Ada, Oscar family, obviously, right across the street as, like, just a 1B to the 1A of the Russells. Obviously, these are, like, our primary ensembles. I think one of the big differences. I'm curious if you were you a Downton Abbey head?
- [12:19]
B
Yeah.
- [12:19]
A
Okay. So one of the big differences, to me between, obviously, it's. It's. They're both Julian fellow shows. The big difference between the two shows is, like, I don't think the Gilded Age has ever quite nailed the upstairs downstairs balance that defined down, where we were genuinely as riveted by everything that was happening with Carson, et cetera, as we were by anybody upstairs. Maybe more so. There are a couple characters who have broken through the mold in the Gilded Age. We'll talk about one. We'll talk about one momentarily. A genuine shared favorite of ours. But I think, like, the we can't. We're in love, but we can't get married plot that was, like, unfolding in season three. And the Russell kitchen, for example, is, like, not, to me, as gripping as, like, a lot of the corollaries that we had on Downton. I've raised this all for important context to say. Agnes, to me, is, in some ways, even though I think clearly Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector and, you know, the Bertha George relationship is, like, the heartbeat of the show. They are just unbelievable. Carrie Coon, our queen now and always, Obviously, Agnes is in some ways most representative of the show's genius, where, like, I would say I don't have the exact numbers. Just a guess, 94 of her scenes have taken place just in one room. Well, two rooms.
- [13:44]
B
Like, 85. Of which chair.
- [13:47]
A
Yeah. And it doesn't matter because she's so compelling. Obviously Baranski, like just the goat. Her every line delivery is perfect. She's so funny.
- [13:57]
B
What's the next Unwed Mothers?
- [14:00]
A
Exactly. She's just like comedic gold all the time. The, the, the temperance plot, very, very like peak vintage Ada Agnes. Not only because of like the, what it represented about the power dynamic, but like just the way that, that unlocked zinger after zinger for Agnes. Like. But now we'll have to do it without wine. Just incredible. So very little happened with these two this season and yet I found myself completely wrapped, as I always am with them. And the grand finale of you now get to take your rightful place at the head of the table by moving one seat. I was like, yeah. They're literally rotating share each. And I feel like I have lived a life with them and I am satisfied.
- [14:43]
B
Yes. And I would live a thousand more. And, and, and we know that, you know, she can preserve her, her dignity and her sense of being a person who matters because she has this new position at the Historical Society, which of course I just think is gonna, gonna unlock all sorts of potential for Baranski one liners and getting to hear how she looks at the world, which is just fabulous. I do think that there's something about Cynthia Nixon getting such a typical Cynthia Nixon plotline where she's just like kind of a batty old lady. Yeah, that felt really right to me. And it was really poignant when the medium screws up and thinks that his name was Luca and she realizes and she's sort of heartbroken, but it also helps her process. But there was. That's not a character that gets a ton of comedy generally. And the first couple experiences of her being like, yes, is he here?
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A
He's in the room with us.
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B
It's touching and it's sad, but it also really was, was, was funny.
- [15:40]
A
Genuinely very good. I thought this was like an interesting Ada season because through the first two seasons and we, we certainly get plenty of moments like this still in season three, she is like often in stark contrast to Agnes. The more morally and socially progressive, the more certainly the more attuned to other people's emotional states. What does Marion need? What does Oscar need? What does anybody need? Why should we embrace the Russells rather than thinking that they represent some unthinkable change in society? And Agnes is often the one she has to kind of drag reluctantly into the future. And so like something like Ada's temperance plot felt to me very contrary to where we typically find her. Where like, this was very much like, why would the household not just do exactly what I think is important, whatever else that I like what people think, their own personal preference and opinion matters as much as what I have asked them to commit to on a piece of paper, which is, like, very Agnes coded.
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B
Yeah.
- [16:38]
A
And of course, I think that was ultimately the point that, like, not because she's power mad now that the money is hers, but just, like, she was off her bearing this season. She had, like, moved into this new phase of life. Like, finally having a partner and somebody she loved and then losing that cruelly so quickly really was a destabilizing thing. And this idea that she was doing this because she thought it would be something that Luke wanted and having to sort of, like, slowly realized that it was not that at all. I don't know if that was like, you know, I think ultimately the fact that that was the point. Right. That Ada was, like, a little bit lost and maybe not able to be that, like, trusted, steady force that we would typically expect her to be. Subtle, I guess, but, like, ultimately pretty interesting. And, you know, I. I think that I got the vibe. I'm curious if you got the vibe. I mean, obviously Ada had reached out and, like, facilitated that final conversation about the. Yeah. Hey, you're gonna be veep. Did you get the sense. Because there's the whole, like, I don't have any money. I finally have to say this out loud. It's so mortifying. From Agnes, did you get the sense that they were actually. The Historical Society was actually after a payday, and Ada had kind of like, quietly taken care of that so that Agnes could just. Just received the, like, we want you for your. The nobility of your name and your history and your stature. Or do you think it was actually just about that?
- [18:07]
B
Oh, that's interesting. I thought that it was just about giving her. Her that position the whole time. I mean, they are a historic family. I also just think. I just. I. I kind of want that for Agnes. I want her to have. Have just by her own merits, have gained this type of entry. Um, but that would be an interesting wrinkle. But I don't think that Ada, as you said, she didn't totally have her wits about her. I think that that was part of why, with all the confusion downstairs over who's giving the orders.
- [18:37]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, on one sense, on one level, it's pretty obvious, right. Whoever signed the paychecks is giving you the orders. And I think everybody seems to kind of understand that. But part of why they had all of that confusion is also because Ada is a little bumbling. Like she doesn't really, you know, both constitutionally know how to give a direct order, but also with where she is in life. She's searching.
- [19:01]
A
Right.
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B
And I thought that one of the examples of a time when the upstairs downstairs dynamics were pretty interesting and did come to life a little bit was around the temperance pledge.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah.
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B
And was around that. Well, you get like it's not just about following orders. It's you guys won't sign on to this thing that I want to have give me purpose. Which is of course a totally out of bounds thing to ask. But she's. She doesn't really know and she doesn't know how to be a leader of a house in that way. So I thought that that was when the two of them and their dynamic and the dynamic of that whole house was at its most compelling.
- [19:36]
A
Also just great. Absolutely genuinely great stuff for Mrs. Bauer to be able to be like, I just, I just like need a beer. Like, I just have to have a beer.
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B
Mrs. Bauer, she's the best look. Bad taste in mediums, but in general, a woman who makes a lot of solid points.
- [19:53]
A
Yeah, she's fantastic. I would love more time with with Mrs. Bauer. Truly.
- [19:59]
B
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Visit Disney, Plush, Hulu, HBOMaxBundle.com for details. Speaking of someone else who I think in his heart of hearts is missing some time with Mrs. Bauer. Let's move on and talk about our dear Jack, please, AKA the Rockefeller in livery, AKA the clock twink himself.
- [21:34]
A
This is my single favorite thing that's ever happened on television. So what I was saying at the beginning of the pod about, like, one thing.
- [21:41]
B
Nothing happened.
- [21:42]
A
Yeah. Over an entire season for a character we now have to amend. Because on the one hand, you could say, well, maybe nothing more significant has ever happened on the show than, like, Jack going from footman to literal millionaire.
- [21:55]
B
Who is now $300 in 1884, which is, I believe, the exact year that this should be taking place, based on the legislation that's happening over in the UK about the farm people and the townspeople getting to vote in matters of the estate, which Gladys is now taking an interest in. That place is it at 1884. And $300,000 in 1884 is about $10 million today. So, Jack.
- [22:28]
A
That's a lot.
- [22:28]
B
Doing pretty well, my man.
- [22:29]
A
Jack's doing great. So that's, of course, a huge development. But also, two seasons now, he made a clock. Just been about Jack making a clock, which, like, that's kind of how I describe the show to people. I'm like, it's. We've spent two seasons with, like, one dude making a clock. Frankly, to be clear, that's the. That's the feature, not the bug. That's the Drew. I would. I can't wait to see what he draws next, though, what he invents next. And like, I love. I told you this, like, when Jack showed up on The Last of Us Season 2. And I won't spoil anything about that show, but I will just say it was an incredibly different vibe. And I was shaken to my core because Jack is such a soothing presence and soothing force on the Gilded Age. And obviously, like, I actually do genuinely, really enjoy this character in this plot line because I think it's interesting to, like, when we are brought into the world of the Gilded Age. And now, like, I am not. I am not saying that where we find Jack at the end of season three is where we met the Russells. To be clear, that is not the case. However, this, like, opening dynamic of old, established, entrenched society and then the new money and, like, the clash of that. And who in the old guard is going to be more Welcoming and embrace the new figures and who, like the Lady Aster, is going to feel for seasons on end, years on end, that the arrival of this, like, new faction represents not only a direct threat to, like, who gets to throw the best ball, who gets to build the most popular opera house, but to something more fundamental. That's just the, like, kind of core dynamic of where the show started. Jack is like, we get to watch that in real time now. We get to watch somebody. Like, when we. When we met the Russells, they were a powerhouse already. And it was just about who would be resistant to that and who would acknowledge and embrace it. Watching Jack go from literal footman into Millionaire overnight and see how he finds society and how society finds him is, like, actually really interesting, I think. And I'm excited to watch how that continues to unfold and develop. I thought that the scene at the end of this finale where the end of the season and the finale where Bridget brought him the lamb stew and, like, they just had the most darling moment and he said that the house felt safe with her there, that was.
- [25:04]
B
The sweetest thing I've ever heard.
- [25:06]
A
Literally the sweetest thing I've ever heard in my life. So I'm rooting for those two. I think it's long overdue that Jack realized that Bridget is obviously the one, you know, enough getting distracted by, like, Adelaide and other other hot chicks across the way. Like, it's Bridget for you. It's always been Bridget for you.
- [25:21]
B
It's always been Bridget.
- [25:22]
A
Let's make it happen.
- [25:24]
B
I mean, also, like, look, they have a long way to go from staring deep into each other's big, gorgeous eyes from across. Across the table. But if the Russells are going to be fighting, somebody needs to take up the mantle as the couple who fucks on the Gilded Age.
- [25:41]
A
It's true. It's true.
- [25:42]
B
I don't know if it's going to be Jack and Bridget, but they got a whole house to themselves.
- [25:47]
A
That's true. We have a lot of contenders, I think, actually, for the couple who fucks on the Gilded Age. Obviously, they are now one of them, certainly. I mean, we've been waiting for Larry and Marian to finally become the couple who on the Gilded Age.
- [26:01]
B
These two.
- [26:03]
A
Now we have Peggy and William, so that's very exciting. You know, we have some new candidates at the end of this season, but, yeah, I'm invested in Jack and Bridget. And, like, I'm interested to see especially because, like, Jack was kind of, you know, he wanted to stay, right?
- [26:18]
B
Yeah.
- [26:18]
A
And he was sort of, like, made to go. But then, like, when does it shift from. This isn't right for you anymore. You don't belong here anymore. You have to go live the life that you are now able to live into. Wait, did you just. Wait. Now Bridget's gone too. I'm curious to see when the.
- [26:37]
B
Wait. What. And then Mrs. Bauer moves in Exactly. All the staff.
- [26:42]
A
Yeah. He's like, my cook's not as good as you.
- [26:44]
B
Well, because he is. He's an. He is like a mirror to the Russell's in some ways, because he is this example of new money, success, and how that interacts with this world as a whole. But he's an example of that with none of the ambition.
- [26:55]
A
Right.
- [26:56]
B
Our guy just wanted to draw a clock. That's all he wanted to do.
- [26:59]
A
Wanted to be able to wake up on time.
- [27:01]
B
He had no idea what was happening in those meetings.
- [27:04]
A
Yeah, he had no idea Did Larry had. Turned out.
- [27:07]
B
Larry had less of an idea. But he didn't know how much money they were talking about. He doesn't. He didn't know anything. He was shocked by what was happening at the club of ill repute.
- [27:17]
A
Yes.
- [27:17]
B
He doesn't know anything about how you navigate this world that he's now been sort of forced in some ways against his will to be a part of. And so that's an. That's actually an angle that we haven't really seen. Yeah, yeah. The reluctant. The reluctant millionaire.
- [27:36]
A
Yeah. Everybody's a striver. Everybody's either trying to hold on to what they have or gain something new. And Jack is like, I don't know if this is right for me. It's a great observation. You're totally right. It's like a. A very different energy than what we've seen so far. And I think it's. It's like a rich text to mind. So I'm curious to see how, like, people who have a history with him respond to him suddenly being in their circles. Like, at what point does that shift from, you know, the old Jon Snow, I don't want it into, like, actually don't want it. Guess what? Being rich is great.
- [28:08]
B
Like, I love it. Will break my heart if it changes him, but we can't rule it out as a possibility.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah, I know. And that. That gets back to. I think what. You're very astute and correct one of your opening notes. Like, it's not necessarily. I mean, tragic, sad things happen on the Gilded Age, but it is a show, I think, on like, a kind of core level where we expect Things to work out for our characters.
- [28:31]
B
As long as it's not a horse and buggy.
- [28:33]
A
I. I still have a lot of questions about my man went flying the angles. Because, like the prior shot, there's no. There is no carrot behind John Adams that is moving with the force that would be necessary to do what happened.
- [28:48]
B
There, Especially with all of those apples that had to have been carrying.
- [28:52]
A
Very puzzling. Very puzzling. Anyway, thrilled for. Thrilled for our guy Jack. I'm curious to see what he invents next. Obviously, he's already started sketching, so, you know, I hope that he continues to develop not only, you know, an appetite for the finer things in life.
- [29:09]
B
I think I'm.
- [29:09]
A
I'm more interested, and I don't want to heal turn for Jack, but I am, like, I want to see him engaged with society and then, like, figure out what that means for him. But I would like him to keep inventing and just become this, like, great defining mind of the time. That would be so cool to watch and see. I don't want him to be like, I got rich once I'm done. And that doesn't seem likely because that's not. That's not. His relationship to. It wasn't about the payday. It's about the actual impulse to improve people's daily routines. So curious to see what our guy Jack does next.
- [29:41]
B
We love you, clock twink.
- [29:43]
A
We do.
- [29:44]
B
All right, how about we talk about Miss Peggy Scott?
- [29:49]
A
Yes.
- [29:50]
B
Dr. Kirkland, savior of. Of one George Russell man, which, of course means.
- [29:57]
A
Thank you.
- [29:58]
B
Also be discussing all of their families.
- [30:01]
A
Yes, Yes. I. I will posit to you now. And there are a lot of characters on the Gilded Age that I really like, really like and really want to see be happy. I don't know that anyone deserves to be happy more than Peggy. Right, Correct. So this was just, like, wonderful to see William defy his. His mother. Obviously, he had gained his father's support, but defy his mother and walk into that ball and spin Peggy around and then propose rooting for them, happy for them. You mentioned at the top just the number of, like, storylines this season that oriented in some way around mothers and daughters, fathers and sons, parents and children, just like generational divides. And, you know, the idea of, like, what you are pushing your children toward or what you're supporting them in pursuing. And, you know, that was really, like, interesting to track across the season. Like, where were those parallels and where were those distinctions? And I think, like, in some ways, like, the hero of the season is. Is Mrs. Scott, is Peggy's mom. Because, like, even though, you know, Bertha is my favorite character, Bertha and George are my favorite characters on the show.
- [31:19]
B
Yeah.
- [31:20]
A
With respect to Jack and Agnes, who is also great. They're all great.
- [31:25]
B
I mean, you just named my Mount.
- [31:26]
A
Rushmore so fucking great. I know. They're the best. You know, there's like, obviously we'll talk more about the Russells in the state of that family. But there is genuinely a reason. Despite where Gladys and Hector find themselves currently, there is a reason why every member of Bertha's family at some point this season was like, you don't care about me at all. And you know, that's not the only family dynamic that we saw and play that unfold that way. And so to have Peggy's family just continue to not only directly to her through their words and their actions and her mother say to her, like, you, you're worth it. Like, you deserve to be happy. You don't have anything to be ashamed of. Come out and live your life and be with us tonight. And if he's going to make this decision, then he didn't deserve you and.
- [32:13]
B
Not worthy of you.
- [32:15]
A
Yeah. But then to also say that to other people, like, the showdown between the moms between Peggy's mom and William's mom was just so satisfying to watch. Really, really thrilled for Peggy. And I hope that they're happy moving forward. And I think William is just incredibly handsome. So I'll note that as well.
- [32:39]
B
Incredibly handsome, man. And I thought that the way that they shot that final scene with the ball, first of all, how it's going back and forth with the Russell ball.
- [32:47]
A
Yeah.
- [32:48]
B
At the same time was just absolutely stunning. And the fact that, you know, they let her dress like Cinderella. Right. It's this like pink sparkly ball gown and it's all lit by candlelight. Because that was one of the distinctions between the Russells.
- [33:04]
A
Yes.
- [33:05]
B
Have so much money and stature and influence that they can have their display of illumination in the home. So they actually got to. To light that scene as though it was lit by actual light.
- [33:17]
A
And like, we're only a couple seasons removed from like the astonishment society wide of a light bulb being turned on. So, like, that is, you know, we see that and we're like, oh, yeah, like they've got some nice, like, lights in the backyard. And a lot of people have those. No, like, that is like there's what that signifies about what they are able to do is supreme. I thought that was like a nice little touch actually about just a season over season kind of like tracking of an element of society that, like, was present now and it entered people's lives, but was still so exceedingly rare at.
- [33:45]
B
That scale and is not present at. Even though this is a ball of elite black society in Newport, they are lit by candlelight. Of course. Candlelight is absolutely visually stunning. And so I just thought that the. It actually looked even more beautiful in some ways. And it just. That, like, glowing light. And he gets down on one knee and it does feel like total Cinderella story. I say all this to preface. All I wish for her is happiness. Mel, I have to say to you that I think that guy is a dud.
- [34:17]
A
Tell me you're not a William fan. Tell me why the heel turn of.
- [34:22]
B
Saying to her that their relationship is untenable. And then, like, he's sad about it. And then his dad talks to him a little bit. And then, like, then he just walks in and he's like, just kidding. I know that I left you brokenhearted on his staircase. That was bad 14 hours ago or something. But I thought about it and I changed my mind.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah.
- [34:44]
B
I just. I'm not.
- [34:46]
A
Okay.
- [34:47]
B
I know I'm supposed to like this man.
- [34:50]
A
Yeah.
- [34:50]
B
But I don't trust him now.
- [34:52]
A
Okay.
- [34:52]
B
Even. Even. Even if he can do his four stitches.
- [34:56]
A
Beautiful stitch work. Cotton and all, like, left inside of the wound. I still have questions. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Listen, it's a completely fair point. Here's my. It's not. I'm not going to try to make a counter argument because you're right. Undeniably, I will provide additional considerations and then we'll see if we can. We can get to a shared. A shared space here. I would say that I agree that the framing of, like, I think this. Is it possible that the situation is just untenable. There's no path forward. Was less than ideal. Also being like, I need to just go take a walk. You're just. I'm gonna leave you in state of absolute despair was not the best. You know, perhaps when Peggy offered up the. The handkerchief, you could have been like, hang on to it.
- [35:49]
B
Yeah, we'll talk.
- [35:49]
A
I'm gonna keep thinking. Yeah, I'm gonna keep thinking. I'm gonna keep reflecting and we'll, like, follow up. You know.
- [35:56]
B
Let'S circle back by EOD pegs.
- [36:00]
A
Oh, that would have been great. These are five. These are fair notes. I think that, like, ultimately it feels inside of everything that the show has taught us true and. And realistic. That, like, there would have to be a period of reflection and, like, a moment where breaking through of whatever your family tells you is right is, like, part of your journey and your arc and, like, a thing that has to happen now. Is there a way that our, our dear William could have done that without leaving Peggy in a state of just abject despondence? It's entirely possible that the answer to that is yes.
- [36:47]
B
After, when they talked in the park, yeah. He said, everybody has the past. All that matters is the present and the future. He didn't really think that through. He didn't really mean that.
- [37:01]
A
Well, I think ultimately he meant it and embraced it. But when faced with a challenge to your own contention, isn't it human to backslide a little bit, you know, to wonder if you actually have the courage to move forward? I thought that the, like, inside of the finale, the idea that William is, like, because of everything that has happened with George and with the Russells being praised for his courage, and then having to, like, face this other aspect of his life where he's like, will, I have the courage to basically say, I love this person, and I want to spend my life with Peggy, and, like, I don't actually give a shit what anybody else thinks about her or, thus us, whether that person is my own mother or our friends in Philadelphia or anyone else. But, like, the idea that you take a beat to, like, think about what that meant, given the state of society at the time and the way that people thought about anything that was, like, outside of a social norm or the stain of scandal, obviously for us as viewers were like, what happened to Peggy and what Peggy went through was so deeply horrific and tragic that the idea of anybody else labeling it as, like, a scandal or sin is, like, that is a reflection on them, not on Peggy. And so, like, if that was where William had landed, then, of course, I would have been, I would have, I would have had nothing but horrible things to say about him. But I think the fact that he had to, like, acknowledge that other people would think that and then decide that that wouldn't stop him was actually interesting to watch.
- [38:30]
B
I, all fair points. I, my, my suspicions were up from the moment that he didn't tell Peggy that he hadn't told his mother what the suffrage meeting was about. Yeah, I'm just like, this man, he can't stand up to his mom. He does, ultimately, but I, I, I'm not entirely convinced that's not going to be an issue in the future. And this is a woman who has big ambitions. You know, is this a man who, who is Able to set aside or control his instinctual reactions of, oh, well, don't rock the boat or don't do this, because I just want to, you know, I want to preserve this sort of sense of not challenging certain types of status quo, which Peggy is all about. I just. I'm. I'm curious to see where that goes. I am thrilled that she got what I know she feels is a very happy ending to the season.
- [39:31]
A
Peggy, the absolute best.
- [39:34]
B
Okay. Slightly less romantic proposal.
- [39:41]
A
Just ever so slightly.
- [39:44]
B
Ever so slightly.
- [39:45]
A
Ever so slightly. Yeah.
- [39:46]
B
Dear darling Gladys. Little Gladys Russell and the Duke of Buckingham.
- [39:51]
A
Yep.
- [39:52]
B
Good old Hector. We know, based on the end of season two, even just going into this season, we know that Gladys, your mom, is up to something. She is hatching plans. A huge sort of piece of historical inspiration. You know, Bertha Russell is at pretty. Not terribly loosely based on Alva Vanderbilt, whose daughter Consuelo Vanderbilt also cried as she walked down the aisle to marry the Duke of Manchester, which was one of the first Dollar Princesses stories in this time period. And we see Gladys running away from home, begging her father to appeal to her mother, but then ultimately deciding to go through with it, only to go over and with a little bit of help from Bertha, who comes to the rescue, then decides she likes England.
- [40:53]
A
Listen, here's my take on this. We'll get into some of the nuance. Gladys had sex on a boat and then got to move into a castle in England and was like, this is great. And I have no notes. That's where I am with this. I was like, yeah, of course.
- [41:06]
B
Okay. When you put it that way, it makes a little bit of sense to me. That scene after their wedding when they're.
- [41:13]
A
On the boat, I found horrifying. It was actually. I was like, all jokes aside, genuinely, I was, like, kind of nervous and then very relieved that it didn't end up in an incredibly dark place. But the fact that, like, okay, this is. Again, this plot line is sort of emblematic to me of. Of the magic trick of the show, which is, like, completely gripping us, even though the outcome of certain plots is, I think, very rarely shocking. Like, I don't know about you, but I was. And. And I will say my relationship to the show is, like, I do occasionally try, like, I am interested certainly in learning about, like, the. The time period and historical facts. My relationship to learning about the historical comps. I think, first of all, just the fact that the Russells are, like, clearly based on the Vanderbilts, but, like, ultimately composites of. Of other historical fig. Not a Direct one to one has it was this for all. I'm sure there are a million reasons why they had to do that, but ultimately like one of the luxuries it affords them is that they don't have to strictly adhere to like historical fact. They can change things while also being like, this is where we're taking our inspiration from. Even though multiple episodes were in theory, plot wise, oriented around the mystery, the suspense, the question of will Gladys walk into that church and walk down the aisle and marry Hector or will she decide to make a stand? I was like, there's only one. There's just simply only one thing that is going to happen here and it is that Gladys is marrying the Duke. Like it just, it literally didn't seem possible to me that anything else would happen. Billy Carl, I mean, talk about a sad sack who did not deserve to compete like Billy Carlton. What a fucking loser.
- [42:56]
B
No one has ever needed to nut up more.
- [42:59]
A
Exactly. Come on, Billy, sack up, dude. The, the fact that Gladys like ultimately ended up marrying Hector was, I thought, just never in question. So on the one hand the fact that like multiple episodes are kind of like teasing out that mystery is like a little almost like it's like kind of like why. But on the other hand, the why is because it's not really about the plot outcome. It's about like the character dynamics on the way to that inevitability. And so like seeing how Gladys and what, what that meant for Gladys and ber, what it meant for Gladys and Larry, what it meant for most crucially of all, ultimately Bertha and George and just the entire Russell family unit was fascinating. And I really like, I think it's smart inside of the season to end in a place where Gladys has, despite undeniably not wanting to have. She did not want to do this in the first place. She did not love Hector, she did not want to marry him. That's like just indisputable fact.
- [44:00]
B
And she didn't want to leave home. She's never been.
- [44:04]
A
Yeah, she's like the life of the duchess. And this like chokehold on some aspect of society that you think ensures like the future of our name is not interesting to me basically. So I don't want to like lose sight of that at all. However, I think ending the season with Gladys in a position of agency and embrace and saying like Hector and I kind of are like into each other now, like I don't feel like I'm maybe my mother is the reason why I wound up in this circumstance in the first place. But I don't feel like she's, like, my puppeteer day to day right now. Similarly, Sarah, the great stuff with the brother sister dynamic, incredible. I wish we'd actually gotten more of that. Hector has also kind of broken free of that control. They're, like, at least attempting to be the arbiters of their own lives and fates. Well, or.
- [44:58]
B
Or Hector. I mean, Hector comes across to me as a character who wants someone to be mommy.
- [45:04]
A
Now. Now Gladys is actually. He's. Yes, definitely.
- [45:09]
B
But, like, we'll see where that goes.
- [45:10]
A
Right? It's very rich text to play.
- [45:12]
B
A lot of riding crops hanging around those old English country piles.
- [45:16]
A
It's just so many, so many. But, like, the fact that, like, ultimately, you could say just at the most kind of, like, reductive, basic level, it, like, worked out for Gladys. Right. And it still did not work out for the family. Like, it's not like we got to a place where George says. In response, Bertha literally does say, look, she's not unhappy and is expecting George to be like, you're right. You were right the whole time. You're the best. I shouldn't have doubted you. I don't know why I did. What decision do you want to make for the rest of us next? That's not what happened. And I thought that was good. Was actually fascinating that it didn't. It wasn't that George walked away and that Larry went back to the club because Gladys came back and was like, I'm miserable. How did you do this to me? It's that the fact that her. Her happiness was ultimately, like, not.
- [46:03]
B
It didn't.
- [46:04]
A
It didn't erase for them everything that Bertha had done to just engineer these outcomes for their lives that they did not want. Similarly, Bertha is like, marianne, I see your true spirit. I see your heart. You got on that table. You're. You were. You're. The cuffs of your dress are soaked in my husband's blood. You're a real one. You are a real one. And now I see what Larry sees in you. I saw, like, the way she put it, like, I saw him through your eyes for the first time. I will now welcome you into our family. I will stop trying to thwart my own son's happiness because I think you're inferior. You're not going to advance our family cause, and it doesn't matter. It's too late. And that felt like, I thought, a really, like, dramatically interesting choice. I know I'm jumping ahead now to the family that we're not. Not really fully talking about. But like, it's all connected.
- [46:52]
B
We're always talking about the Russells.
- [46:54]
A
Always.
- [46:54]
B
There are these different moments where you see, you know, Gladys appealing to her father in a way where she has internalized this. Okay, no one can really stop mother when there's something that she wants. But this is still the head of the household. This is still the man in the relationship. Maybe I can get something done here. Maybe. Maybe this is a way for me to get what I want, want, and then it doesn't work out. But then there is this sense of sort of lost agency, which seems like the thing that the men in particular can't forgive of. You made me do this thing that. That I maybe now feel like I didn't want to do. Maybe I felt like I didn't want to do it in the moment, but maybe now I'm just sort of deciding that I didn't want to, even though I went through with it. It mirrors how he's acting in business where there are these things that maybe aren't good ideas. But George has such a sense of self that's caught up in. I can do whatever I want. Nobody can say no to me. Nothing. The world, the circumstances of. Of business and copper mines and other railroads that other people own, like, you cannot stop me if I want to do something. And the fact that she got in, that she proved that wrong, in a sense, is the one thing that he can't forgive. Whereas I think Gladys as a woman in this world, understands it and is coming to understand it, especially now that she is experiencing a growth of agency only within that type of system herself, where she can find that common ground ultimately with her mother, even if her parents can't find it together, at least as. As we end the season. So I. I thought that was really compelling. Even if the. About the turn with now Hector and I get along was maybe a little clunky and nervous.
- [48:49]
A
It's, you know, tried and true. Tried and true. Move in. In stories, you know, the old. The old Catelyn Rob, like, it's. It's built stronger. It lasts longer. Like trying to just go with the arranged marriage like, you don't need to marry for love. I. I think the contrast in the family to like, you know, and George obviously invokes this a few times like, we were a love match. And then Bertha saying, but we were also, like, well matched was so interesting across the season. You're identifying something that I think is really smart and really right that, you know, on an purely, like, emotional level, when we watch George Weave and tell Bertha that he's leaving and say when she once again invokes that, like, ambition, ruthless ambition, is a shared trait, is a shared pursuit. And he repositions it and says, yeah, but like, I do that in business, not to the people I love. And ultimately, that is like the great indictment, right, Is that she doesn't see a distinction. Like, the people that she loves are not necessarily just, like, the priority isn't their happiness, their well being. But he's. I think he mean, I do think he meant. But I think you're right that, like, there's something else fueling that, which is like, wait, you, like, handled me and I let you. And I don't like the way that.
- [50:17]
B
Like, I don't like when anybody handles me, even if I think he thinks he meant it. But he does. Like, part of the. You know, often we hear George be a bit of the voice of reason to Bertha, but part of, I think a little bit of a twist at the end is that. But I think he's lying to himself a little bit. He leans on her to use her social power to help him in business when he thinks it's gonna work to invite what's his face over for dinner and charm him. But then he's upset with how charming his wife is being and the fact that this guy is, you know, maybe getting a little bit flirtatious.
- [50:58]
A
Incredible sequence.
- [51:02]
B
Like, really good stuff.
- [51:03]
A
Like, you, like, made me a cook at my own table. Great stuff.
- [51:11]
B
Okay, again, like, not to be horny on Maine.
- [51:13]
A
I need those two to get it on again. Like, I know.
- [51:16]
B
It was. It was all we had.
- [51:18]
A
I know, I know. And it was such a wonderful. I mean, genuinely, like, of course, it's like you say you don't want to be horny. I mean, that's a part of the. Part of the brand over here. But, like, like, it actually was, I think, in part because so many of the relationships on the show are so, like, transactional that to see, like, their intimacy was really remarkable over the early seasons of the show because it was like, no, these people, like, they're hot for each other. Yeah. They want to. Like, they're into each other. They love each other. They love each other. They're partners in a number of respects. Like, they have a genuine, actual, still sincere attraction and draw to each other. So to. Yeah. To put that into. For that to be imperiled by all of the other, like, chipping away at the buttresses of their relationship and imperiled Mo and.
- [52:09]
B
And by him. Right. Because she was, she tried to make it happen. I'm tired. I'm, I'm going to bed.
- [52:18]
A
It's, it's, it's. I've been shot. I'm going to bed. I'm high on opium. I'm going to bed then. Yeah. Always a new excuse.
- [52:29]
B
Always an excuse with that George Russell. I'm worried about my railroad. My choo choo train isn't going to go across the country and I'm upset.
- [52:37]
A
George, Dear George, I love him.
- [52:41]
B
I am really interested to see what happens with, with just how close Gladys and the Duke do become. If we've established that actually this arranged marriage might work out. How well is it going to work out? Is she going to, is she going to take over the property and start interacting with the townspeople and the farmers and, you know, really become, is she going to become a sort of version of her mother, but in this bucolic English nobility context? I don't quite know how far that's going to go. Does that mean that Gladys is sort of out of sight, out of mind for a lot of what's happening back in New York, or will they continue to find ways to keep her being in the mix and keep them both being in the mix?
- [53:27]
A
Yeah, like I, I'm interested in that too. I obviously, I very much did not want George to die and I did not think it likely that he would. But I will say, not only because the penultimate episode ends with him being shot, obviously we had to at least consider the possibility. And then I thought inside, I mean.
- [53:49]
B
It'S very close range.
- [53:50]
A
Very close range.
- [53:51]
B
Like, it's honestly kind of a, an indictment of who Clay or whomever it was who hired this assassin.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah.
- [53:58]
B
Got to do it. Like, not a very good shot.
- [54:00]
A
Yeah. He had one job, although I guess.
- [54:02]
B
The guns weren't very accurate, and he.
- [54:04]
A
Killed the other guy like the Clay replacement. Right. So that's, that's tough for good old Brinkley. But like both between episode seven and eight and then I will say inside of episode eight because when George is better and then we get like the kind of close up on the, on the, you know, he's downing his, his opium before the party. And I was like, okay. I paused and I said to, I turned to Adam and I was like, I think George is going to die with 10 minutes left of the episode. And the reason I'm bringing this up in the Gladys section is because, like it. And, and ultimately I think then it became clear that the real setup for what was happening was Bertha's Focus on bringing divorced women back into society. That's really priming us for the. The. The, you know, destruction of the Russell marriage. But I was like, okay, wait. And now I think the close up was just like, maybe he becomes, like, addicted in next season and starts to make mistakes, and then does he have. And then is that the grounds for divorce? I don't know. My mind started racing, but with a few minutes left in the episode, I was like, what if this, like, what if his return to form here is false hope? And then he just, like, collapses and dies on the dance floor. And the reason that we had multiple episodes of basically Larry being like, like, actually, are you the boy genius? Like, do you have the business mind?
- [55:19]
B
Big brain.
- [55:20]
A
Look at the big brain on this one. And Gladys, like, you know, Gladys is then, like. I mean, she's a literal duchess. Is basically the next generation of the Russells being the ones to lead the business and society. Like, was that what we were being primed for? Now that can happen, I guess, to a degree without George Russell dying. But, like, obviously, as long as they're all still alive and going forward, I think Bertha's position, even amid the, like, gossip mongers and whispers, is preserved in a way that doesn't necessarily, like, require Gladys to sustain. But that was going through my mind as, like, a possibility. Like, would Gladys suddenly be the one? And Bertha is basically, like, reliant on her daughter to secure her position in society, not what happened. So it doesn't really matter.
- [56:12]
B
That's very interesting, though, because I. I did not have the reaction of. I felt like once he'd been revived on the table, we were good. Even though I was more nervous than you were. You convinced me. We had a conversation last year where you convinced me that basically too hot to die theory was at play for Mr. George Russell. And I do think that that has. Has been borne out.
- [56:37]
A
He's just very. It's a very powerful and important thing.
- [56:43]
B
I get Tina Brown's substack and who knows Julian Fellows and just, I think, has a real affinity for shows like this period. Shows like this. This time of. This period in history and the interactions between the British and the Americans particularly. And I clicked on a post that came in the newsletter this morning, and it was about, you know, the Gilded Age. And really, it was. It was just an excuse for Tina to write. You know, I find this man incredibly visually appealing.
- [57:18]
A
Same Tina, same.
- [57:21]
B
She was like. Like, this interest is. Has taken hold of me enough that I am privy to the. The full set of, like, body Tattoos that Morgan Spector.
- [57:34]
A
I would like to once again say.
- [57:35]
B
Same has and shows on his Instagram. And then there were a few very familiar. There were a few screenshots of Instagram posts that were embedded in the newsletter. And there were two credits of different accounts. And one was, I think his account. And then the other handle was at E. Pluribus. Your mom.
- [57:56]
A
That's him. That's his handle. Yes. That's his Instagram, which I follow closely. That's his handle. Check it out.
- [58:13]
B
That is so funny. Why?
- [58:17]
A
I. I just. I. I don't. I would just say kingdom in your life.
- [58:22]
B
A king among men. That's really fabulous. I didn't even consider. Consider that as a possibility.
- [58:28]
A
That's him. Yep.
- [58:30]
B
Oh, that's really wonderful.
- [58:31]
A
Very important stuff. George Russell is just, you know, he's. It's just. He's great. He is one of the best beards that we've seen on television in a long time. Wonderful stuff.
- [58:42]
B
All of this is to say I'm less worried about him dying. I would say that I. My concern levels on the Russell family business.
- [58:51]
A
Yes.
- [58:51]
B
Are still up there.
- [58:53]
A
Oh, interesting. Okay.
- [58:55]
B
I know we found a lot of copper in the mines. I know we found so much copper because Larry is big brain business son who checks the mines again. Went to Harvard.
- [59:04]
A
Not sure if you've heard. Yeah.
- [59:05]
B
Never. It's in. It's. It's. It's in Boston. Not Boston, actually. Cambridge. And that's great. I am a little like JP Morgan. Seemed real nervous, real red in the face. That JP Morgan. A situation in which something about the children's standing has to represent something for Bertha Russell doesn't seem crazy to me.
- [59:32]
A
Yeah. I think, like they've now been positioned to. To. To take the story in that direction. Certainly. I. I won't be surprised at some point if the Russell railroad pursuits hit a snag that they can't somehow push beyond. But they didn't actually necessarily. I didn't think that was likely this season just because, again, I like the story that we're watching, at least right now. And at a certain point, this should actually change in order to maintain, like, new dramatic tension. But the story that we're watching right now is not like the upstarts who couldn't hang. It's the actual defining force of this period of history. And that feels more like lasting than the span of time that we've spent with them. Will they have to compromise certain things in order to sustain that? I think undeniably. Are they going to be Willing to. Almost certainly to your point, is the entwinement of their social standing and you know, welcoming people into their home and what the nature of those relationships looks like going to be something that they have to continue to like. To what level do they need to compromise the. The sanctity of like the. The holy inner space in order to basically preserve the business and how does that make them feel? I think we'll keep watching all of that. But I wasn't like, Clay's gonna beat George Russell. That just seemed to me like impossible.
- [61:01]
B
I mean this idiot who didn't check the mines a second time. Never happened. Dipshit. Although I will say not George's finest moment of big business training. Slipping a little to be like I'm gonna angrily fire this man who knows all my secrets at a time when my business is incredibly vulnerable.
- [61:18]
A
Here's the thing.
- [61:18]
B
Particularly in ways where if people found out about our bottom line, it would be bad.
- [61:22]
A
You just need to kill him. If you're George, you just simply. You have to.
- [61:27]
B
You gotta kill Clay. Well, certainly he's willing to do that because he told the investigator to be as rough as possible. Is there any world in which it wasn't Clay?
- [61:40]
A
Not on this show.
- [61:41]
B
Yeah, I don't think.
- [61:42]
A
I don't think.
- [61:42]
B
It couldn't be. It couldn't be the ladies maid who is selling gossip to the papers.
- [61:50]
A
Interesting. That was another one where it's like okay, she seemed clearly like the candidate. But then I was like, wait, will they really have Bertha's ladies maid be involved in some sort of betrayal of the family? Again, the answer was yes.
- [62:07]
B
It's really hard to find a good ladies maid apparently.
- [62:10]
A
Yeah.
- [62:11]
B
That's why it was such an indignity when they. They fired Gladys.
- [62:14]
A
It's true.
- [62:15]
B
Come on, people don't grow on trees. So I think we should. When we wrap up, I think there are two real meaty. Where's this gonna go? Questions and sort of groups of people which have to do with the parts of society and the state of the status of divorced women in society in these ways where the world may be changing and then what happens with the Russell's and how those two things. Things interact with each other. I think we should close on those things. Before we do, we're just going to check in with. With two more sets of people. One is our guy, Oscar Very, who has rebuilt himself with the help of John Adams, his friend, who he wishes was more only to see him tragically die in a street car to horse accident.
- [63:05]
A
Broke carriage Man. Yeah. Very tough.
- [63:10]
B
So let's just break this down for a second. How fast do you think that horse and carriage was going?
- [63:16]
A
Faster than a horse and carriage possibly could, given the amount of open space in that particular area. That's the thing.
- [63:25]
B
It has to have been for it to truly have caught him by surprise like that, don't you think? It has to have at least been like 25 miles an hour.
- [63:36]
A
It's entirely possible. I'll defer to your wisdom as somebody's crunching a lot of combine tape here.
- [63:41]
B
That's really fast.
- [63:43]
A
That's fast. I think, I think that John Adams certainly. It's like, I feel like there was more time to jump out of the way. Yes. Like, even with the carriage moving quite quickly, there's got to be like a little bit of a. Oh, my God, there's a carriage moving really quickly down the street. Everybody move. I think there's that. I think also, like, while it hit him. Him. While moving very quickly and hit him straight on, seemed to me like he should have honestly been pretty, Pretty. Pretty much okay after this. Like, I mean, maybe if he wasn't.
- [64:14]
B
It would have been a trampling situation.
- [64:16]
A
Right. That's the thing. Because it sent him flying.
- [64:19]
B
Yes.
- [64:19]
A
You know, a concussion, certainly for.
- [64:21]
B
Absolutely. A rib contusion or two, even like a broken coccyx.
- [64:27]
A
Yes, yes. But instant death was not necessarily what I anticipated based on that, that impact. Obviously. This is very sad, you know, to have watched Oscar and John in the earlier seasons, like, you know, be in love and in a sexual and romantic relationship with each other that, of course, they had to keep secret at this period in history. And two, I thought that the sequence where Oscar, you know, after meeting with John's sister and her, you know, not only, like, obviously like the, the bequest, but saying to him, like, I, I, I know who you are to him. And I accepted that about him and you and love my brother and wanted him to be happy. And you made him happy. Was. And then to watch Oscar go back to his own family and his own home and break down and, like, not be able to. And to watch him on the edge. Right. Almost like, like, yeah, like, saying to his mother, like, do you really want me to tell you? Like, you know, but do you really want me to say it?
- [65:33]
B
Yeah.
- [65:33]
A
Was. And he was just, obviously just distraught. And then that scene between Marion and Oscar after where she went to his room to comfort him and in essence said, I'm, like, a little sheltered and a little naive, but I think I understand. And I don't, I can't say I understand completely but, but I think I know and I love you and I'm here for you and his, you know, to see the way that that kind of pulled him back into the world and himself was, you know, obviously Marian is one of the most open hearted and like generous of spirit characters on the show and so I'm certainly not surprised that she was the one to be there for Oscar in that way. You know, to see Oscar go into like to have confronted all of these different hardships over the from the end of season two through basically the end of season three and then see Mrs. Winterton know that she, her, her husband has died this her way into wealth and society. He's gone. And Oscar's like, well here's somebody who I can just make an honest, only honest to us, a lie to everybody else basically. Like we can hatch a con and make like a business arrangement with you have your cottage, I have my cottage. We can live our own lives and then in the city we will be a pair and we will work our way together with your money and my basically ability to like operate my connections. My know how we will become a true power couple. High on my list of things I'm most excited to watch in season four. I think Oscar's great. He's like the performance is great. A great blend of more tender moments and plot lines and just like he's got the kind of acerbic wit and the great comedy that obviously is in line with his mother Agnes. So to see this, this, this, this, this plot that they have hatched in season four in full will be very, very interesting to watch. I'm really looking forward to this one.
- [67:47]
B
Really good stuff. I'm interested to see it unfold in particular because I don't really believe that all Mrs. Winterton wants is to hang out in a nice country house and rarely be seen other than in the company of, of her new husband and live a quiet life that doesn't cause any, that doesn't ruffle any feathers. That has not been historically true of Mrs. Winterton.
- [68:10]
A
No, certainly not. She tried to George Russell, in case anyone has forgotten. I did enjoy when she. Because of course Oscar secures her this invite to Bertha's ball. And I did enjoy thinking about E Pluribus. Your mom. I know, it's great. I, I really did like what she was like maybe we'll be friends. And Bertha's like, well I don't think that's likely. You know you did. He did crawl naked into my husband's bed and try to them.
- [68:32]
B
But you tried some stuff. You tried some stuff with the Mr. And that's just sort of.
- [68:36]
A
I don't think that's likely.
- [68:37]
B
We're at an impasse. But welcome to the ball. Go look at the lights display. Okay. Dear Marion and dear Larry. I would say the quintessential example of two main characters for whom nothing happened.
- [68:53]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [68:55]
B
They're in love. They're obviously gonna. Gonna propose. There's going to be a proposal in some way. They beat around the bush for a little while, then they do it. And then Larry has to go to Arizona. And he does lie. He lies. He says he's going to Delmonico's. He goes to a house of ill repute. Marian's very upset. And then this is what I feel we need to talk about with these two.
- [69:17]
A
Okay.
- [69:18]
B
She writes a letter with no explanation of why she's upset.
- [69:22]
A
Absolutely baffling.
- [69:23]
B
And then delivers it across the. The street, only to have it sit. Sit there with church for a month.
- [69:32]
A
Crazy.
- [69:34]
B
My girl.
- [69:36]
A
This is like. This is like, one of the great examples of, like, this show just actually couldn't happen in the cell phone era. Like, it just wouldn't. Nothing that happens on the show could happen currently. You just text someone.
- [69:48]
B
I mean, also, Jack would never have made the clock because he would just be, like, playing Angry Birds.
- [69:55]
A
True. What if Jack. But would Jack be, like. I don't know, would he be some sort of, like, tech overlord? That's sort of upsetting to think about, actually.
- [70:02]
B
Memes. Meme King, maybe.
- [70:07]
A
Who do you think was, like. Obviously, they both have some. Some culpability here, but who did you ultimately find yourself kind of, like, siding with? It wasn't obviously ever positioned as a, like, hyper combative. You need to choose a side. But, like, you know, they do ultimately end up in this position in the last couple episod episodes of, like, a little bit of, like, a blame carousel. Right.
- [70:28]
B
Right. I'm mad at you because you lied. I'm mad at you because you don't trust me and you only trusted Jack.
- [70:34]
A
Yeah. And everyone's making good points, but also, like, everyone's sort of behaving a little poorly. And, like, did you find yourself wanting to shake one of them out of it more than the other, or did you think that that balance was, like, appropriately struck?
- [70:48]
B
I was not upset with Marian for being upset. I wanted to shake Marian out of writing letter with no explanation, delivering across the street. That's when I was like, this Is crazy. You can't act like this. Yeah, Larry, I do feel like he got questioned one time and then he got really upset. I will say I hate to be regressive in this way. I was a little bit like, look, Marianne, I think this is a good guy, ultimately. And, you know, Gladdy across the way just got shipped off to. To. To the uk.
- [71:25]
A
Yeah.
- [71:26]
B
Where they have food and bad lighting.
- [71:28]
A
You're coming out firmly on team. Let your fiance go to the whorehouse. And don't worry about it.
- [71:34]
B
Just like, a little bit of whorehouse. Like a little bit of whorehouse. I think it's a sign of the times. I'm sorry. I'm okay.
- [71:43]
A
But.
- [71:43]
B
But I hope I'm allowed at the next suffrage meeting. I just. I think you're making a bit of a big deal about this, Marianne.
- [71:53]
A
All right, let's. Let's tease this out a little bit, because I don't actually, like, totally disagree. I think that the. I think this would be just like a normal place for a young bro like Larry Russell to go hang with his dudes. He did tell her that he was, as you just noted, he. A very specific lie. He wasn't just like, I'm going. I'm hanging out in the past class tonight. Also, we should say. I mean, anyone who's listening to this has watched the season and knows this, but let's just state it for the record. This was the night. This was the night they got engaged.
- [72:30]
B
That's a bad look. That's a Definitely a bad look.
- [72:32]
A
Gotten engaged. And she's like, let's go celebrate with our families. And he says, I can't. I'm going to Delmonico.
- [72:39]
B
I gotta go to Delmonico's with the boys because of the clock.
- [72:43]
A
Right. And what he meant was, I am going to a house of ill repute, as you have said. And I'm not going to tell you because even though I do not intend to fraternize with any ladies of the night, I don't think that you'll like it. And thus, I will not share that information with you, which is, of course, exactly the thing that he is accusing her of later, which is like, why I. You know, I didn't. The facts don't really seem to matter. You don't trust me. Like, they're kind of holding the same thing against each other, which I guess feels. Actually, despite the very odd nature of this particular plot line and how of the moment, it is kind of true to life. It's like, well, you know, I do Trust you, but, like, I don't, actually, because I have trust issues. And it's not really about you. It's about me. But also, like, you lied to me. But, like, yeah, all of that feels like very, like, relationship 101 stuff. Stuff. I think that Larry lying and not thinking that Marian would be able to hang with the truth was. Was a mistake. I think that Marian writing a letter with no details was, as you have noted, a mistake. I think that the. That Marian not here, not giving him an opportunity to explain and then not trusting him felt very like, again, relatable and normal to me. I think Larry, then being like you, believed Jack but not me. I feel like that is a bad indicator, maybe about our foundation. Like, every time we run into a problem, is that just a rap because you don't trust me or you don't trust us to communicate about it? I thought those were good notes, poorly dispensed and shared. Yeah.
- [74:24]
B
I mean, also, she did believe. She believed Jack because Jack hadn't lied in the first place. I don't know that that's necessarily an indication of, like. Marian thinks of Larry as a fundamentally unreliable.
- [74:38]
A
Right.
- [74:39]
B
Partner.
- [74:40]
A
Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, Larry's lived a life. Larry had.
- [74:45]
B
Yeah.
- [74:45]
A
You know, passionate, torrid love affair with an older woman. Larry has friends and is a young rich man who goes out with other young rich men and socializes. And, you know, I think Marian must know that. But something about being confronted with him withholding from her felt like a canary in the coal mine that she wasn't, like, almost able to, like, attempt to process.
- [75:17]
B
And you know what? I like these two. I'm hoping it works out. And I think given what we know about the Gilded Age in general, I think we've been taught to expect that it will.
- [75:29]
A
I think so.
- [75:30]
B
But Larry is. Larry is someone who we often see behaving kind of nobly, but in ways where he is able to help change Jack's life, even though Jack did most of that himself. But he could do some facilitating, and he is more than willing to do that for the footman because he does know his own stature, and he does know his own power, and he knows that there are very few consequences in this world for him.
- [76:03]
A
Right.
- [76:03]
B
We don't see Larry in a lot of situations where he's being pushed or tested or insulted or just questioned generally. And I think it's fair to say that what we know of this character, even though we often see it in very positive lights, would suggest that this is a person who has some level of entitlement.
- [76:26]
A
No question. And how could he not? He's like the crown prince of the. The hot shot of 61st. Yeah. And I. Yeah, it's a great point because, like, you're right. We think of Larry as like a very, like a kind of like a. Like a little bit of a Prince Charming character. You know, the fact that he is, like, very open. Not only is he always support. He's always supporting a sister. You know, he wants her to be able to do what she wants and, like, marry for love. He. The things that maybe other people would find, like, less than about Marian. He celebrates, like, look at how she's out there teaching and doing what she believes in. And isn't that amazing? He, you know, like, is an open hearted and ultimately a kind of like, sweet guy. But. And to your point from earlier, like, you could all. You could say all these things about George. Right. George is like, I want my daughter to be happy. Like, they're very, very, very similar characters.
- [77:19]
B
Chip on the old block.
- [77:20]
A
Yeah. Wow. Isn't it kind of amazing in some ways that these, like, incredibly, incredibly rich, powerful, handsome, established people would be like, I want my sister slash, daughter to have what she wants. Whoa. Like, how noble, how bold, how brave. But, like, they are both. And it's not. I'm not saying even that they're necessarily wrong to respond to, like, the particular circumstances in this way, but they have a propensity to sulk, the Russell boys. No question. Right. They have a. They have a tendency to say, like, you wounded something about how I view myself. And thus, I don't know if I can move forward with you at all.
- [78:05]
B
They both have a little bit of take my ball on my bat and go home in them.
- [78:09]
A
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
- [78:11]
B
And now it seems like Larry has gotten over that. You know, he and Marion end in a place of, okay, the engagement is not back on, but we're back on. And she has been welcomed into the family because of her heroics after the shooting. And therefore, one obstacle in their relationship has been removed. So things I think, ultimately look pretty bright. Um, but I do agree with you that there is a seed of, you know, we don't. We're. It feels like, how could we go down the path of Marian's heart being broken and. And disappointed again? But there are some things. There are some lingering questions about is this really the right match? Despite the fact that they do seem to be very in love, I think it would be against the general spirit of the show if this ended in tragedy.
- [79:00]
A
I agree. And I think also, like, it's time for something new for Marian. Three seasons in a row of like the Will this be my love match? Not not working out or at least hitting some sort of stumbling block.
- [79:11]
B
And then she gets a new like part time job and Agnes is upset about it and Ada's like, I think it's great that she.
- [79:17]
A
Exactly. And then she like shows up to support Peggy. Somebody else in her life who needs her to be standing there next to.
- [79:25]
B
Her will clearly come to your event.
- [79:27]
A
Exactly, exactly. Even if she doesn't want to, she'll show up. She'll show up at the end. But like, it's time for something else. And so whether I don't think that Marian or any other character on the show, like, needs to be in a romantic relationship in order for their storyline to move forward, but it would be. I just think four seasons of like, is Marion gonna be able to find happiness and trust with this person? Would be like almost unbelievable to me. I guess I can't totally rule it out, but I think it's time for Marianne to be like settled in and then figure out what is next for her.
- [79:56]
B
We've saved, I think the most juicy for last and I think what we need to talk about here are the two things that feel the most energetic moving into season four and also the least resolved. And one is the state of society itself. It is the position of Mrs. Astor.
- [80:17]
A
Right.
- [80:18]
B
As yet again she has relinquished this piece of stature to Mrs. Russell. And it is as a function of that in some ways the societal mores that we know to be true. But changing of this society as it is because we end with this. It's not quite the end of the season, but the. The ultimate event of the season are these balls. And is the Russell Ball where Bertha Russell makes this huge statement by inviting Charlotte Drayton and the still Mrs. Aurora Fane. But. But probably not for very long. That guy sucks. And lifting the ban on divorced women.
- [81:14]
A
Yes.
- [81:14]
B
At this event, which I found so like again, is she just. She's a woman who contains multitudes. We see her shipping her daughter off to. To be the Duchess and not caring about putting her daughter into an arranged marriage or not thinking that her daughter could aspire to a love match. And then at the same time, and I think, and this is a question that I, I am curious what you think about. I never felt like she was making choices out of a. Hey man, my marriage isn't looking too hot right now. This could be me someday. I never felt like that's what it was. I felt like she. She's friends with Aurora Fane. She is someone who's not afraid to make a statement, and this was just something that. That Bertha Russell was interested in doing. Did you think it went anywhere beyond that or had a relationship between her.
- [82:02]
A
Issues with George inside of Bertha's mind at this moment in time? Consciously, no. For the story, yes. Okay. Like, I. To. To me, everything that happens with Bera and the. The state of divorced women in society is like, this is Bera at her best because. And. And the character deployed the most effectively. I think that it is. While I'm with you, I don't think she is sitting here right now because she is astonished when George leaves. The fact that George is at the club and Larry's at the club and they've been going, and she's getting a lot of, like, stern rebukes from husband and son alike about how she has conducted herself and the lack of care she has show closest to her. It's not like she doesn't understand that she has actually really hurt them and that they are unhappy with. With how she has behaved. I don't think she considers it possible even. And she's like, there are. There are whispers. We're in the book. We need to put on a brave face. And, like, we need to all stand there together at the ball so that we can. The only way to quiet the rumors is with the truth. And so let's show them how happy we are. Obviously, she understands that, like, the state of their marriage is fodder in society. It's not like she's oblivious to that fact. However, I don't think that she considers it possible that their marriage, from George's perspective or anyone inside of their household is beyond repair. So her absolute astonishment at the end of the finale was, like, I thought sincere, all that. So I agree with you. I don't think that she's like, well, in the event that George leaves me and our marriage falls apart again, it's like, very clearly cannot. I'm not a historical. I am a child of divorce and an enthusiast of divorced movie. Movies about children. Children of divorce. But I. I can't say I'm a scholar about where we are. And, you know, I'm going based on just the canon of the show where it's, like, established multiple times in the season that the grounds for divorce is adultery. And, like, that has not happened yet inside of this marriage. Right. So, you know, for various reasons, I don't think that Bertha's, like, waiting for George to serve papers. But I do think that this is simultaneously her genuinely thinking that this is, like. Like, the right thing to do, to invite Aurora, to invite Charlotte to not have these women who had a thing happen in their marriage, like, then be shunned from all aspects of society and their lives to be completely defined by what happened inside of their. Their marriage. I think she believes that that is not right or fair. And so there's, like, a beating heart inside of Bertha there.
- [84:45]
B
You know, she took some hits over the course of the season, and you. You see her do that, and then you see her not blink when George has been shot and somebody says, there's a doctor across the street, right? But he's black. Like, she's like, I don't care. Why would that matter?
- [85:03]
A
Exactly. So you see the. You see Bertha's open heart. You see her progressive spirit. You see? But then I think it's like, it's very clearly paired. Even though the personal. What will this mean for me in the future? Is maybe not the active part of her. Of her think, like, guiding her thinking. I do think she's like, still, it's a play to make, right? Because, like, ultimately, what it does is, like, further entrench her as the person who gets to decide the state of play.
- [85:31]
B
It makes society in the image that she chooses.
- [85:34]
A
Exactly. Like, she gets to be the one who says, it's time we moved beyond this. I think that everybody needs to change. And. And I have said that. And so now Everybody will. And Mrs. Astor, the person who used to decide that, has to bend to my will. Now, the fact that. That Mrs. Astor's daughter is one of the two principal figures who represents this change. And Mrs. Astor is so swept up in the old ways that she is willing to cast her own daughter out forever, block her from being welcome in these halls. It is, like, so horrible to see. And so Bertha is, like, almost, like, heroic in contrast to that, even though I do think there's a little bit of the calculus of, like, and this is just one more way that I can beat her and win is like, she didn't want this, and I did. And then she had to walk into my ball anyway and say it was okay.
- [86:28]
B
I have to say, though, objectively, Mrs. Aster choosing to show up to the ball is an indication of how far Bertha Russell has come and how much she does get to make the rules. And Mrs. Astor is now following them. That moment when she whips off the coat, and we're just full sternum, full jewels, pretty good. And then she goes over. Over to her daughter and says, your situation may be embarrassing, but you are not an embarrassment. You are my daughter. I was. That was fierce.
- [86:57]
A
I will say this. I thought the necklace was nice. And the. The big speech to the daughter was a little late. Yeah, I'm not.
- [87:04]
B
I'm mother of the year. No.
- [87:07]
A
Sternum of the year, possibly. So that was a great.
- [87:11]
B
Just the. The throwing off the coast wrote.
- [87:13]
A
It was very good. And the way Church was like, this is aster. Great stuff all around. I do think, though, that the show. Even if. Even if Bertha's not like, I gotta prepare for divorce, the show is clearly doing that. Like, we don't know what will happen for the Russells and when. But this is, I think, undeniably the show saying that by Bertha being the engine, ultimately, perhaps, of her own preservation here. Right. She is saying. And she is helping to ensure that women who are divorced still have a place in society. And thus, if she is, at some point a woman who is divorced, her position will be maintained through her act of grace and charity on behalf of others. She can save herself. So whether she's actively thinking that right now or not, the show is, I think, clearly.
- [88:01]
B
Do you feel like in season four, somebody has to get divorced because of all of this setup?
- [88:09]
A
I will be very surprised if the Russells get divorced in season four. That, to me, feels like a season like six thing. I don't know. Know. It just feels too soon. But, like, I am.
- [88:17]
B
Like, there was so much setup.
- [88:21]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I think a season now formally, like, separated because this was a season of strife and tension, but not actually a season, despite the nights at the club, of, like, formal separation. Like, George. The big end note of the season is George being like, I'm out, by the way.
- [88:36]
B
The Union. The Union Club, 69th Street. He's eight blocks north.
- [88:42]
A
Well, I mean, how fast is the carriage moving?
- [88:46]
B
You know, this is like an 1890s math problem.
- [88:51]
A
Exactly. I think that next season is a season where they're separated and perhaps season five could be a divorce. But, I mean, you think it's possible it's next season? Like the.
- [89:00]
B
I don't know if it's them. I'm not sure if this show.
- [89:04]
A
Are they gonna. Is one of them gonna have an affair or is somebody gonna say, like, you need to basically say you had an affair so that we could get divorced first?
- [89:12]
B
I just don't know if this show could be the show that it is without Bertha and George as a unit of some kind. But I do feel like yeah. There's too much smoke for a divorce plot line for it not to actually happen, but doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem like it's going to be Gladys and Hector.
- [89:36]
A
No, certainly not.
- [89:38]
B
And I mean, I don't think it would be Peggy and. And no. And doctor Scared of my Mommy.
- [89:50]
A
No. And I think we kind of got the, like, you know, with respect to Aurora and Charlotte, like, Aurora has been around obviously from the, the start of the show, but, like, these aren't like central characters. So I think to then do have another. And maybe we'll have more people in that mold, but who are sort of like in the world of the character set in the show, but not like primary figures. I don't think there are too many primary figures other than the Russells who would make sense to do this without it then diluting if it happens to them.
- [90:16]
B
I would take the Charlotte Drayton plot point.
- [90:19]
A
Sure.
- [90:20]
B
I would have liked to see that duel.
- [90:22]
A
I know. It would have been great. It was fun to hear everybody else talk about it, though.
- [90:26]
B
Yeah. Is. It's really. I mean, this is just the reason.
- [90:29]
A
She'S like, I'm just meant to. Okay, so I'm just meant to spend my life with like, needle points by the fire. And then assassin's like, you have to learn how to like, thread a needle.
- [90:37]
B
That would require you learning how to thread a needle.
- [90:39]
A
Wonderful stuff.
- [90:40]
B
All right, Mal, any other predictions for season four?
- [90:43]
A
Jack and Bridget. All systems go. Hmm. I guess my question with Oscar and Mrs. Winterton is like, you know, are we meant to be, like, rooting for them to win? Because, like, Oscar is a character we. We love, but she's a villain. Villain. And he doesn't.
- [91:06]
B
And Oscar doesn't quite want enough for his own happiness in some ways.
- [91:10]
A
Yeah, he's.
- [91:11]
B
He's willing to sort of take, you know, he never went the John Adams route of saying, you know what? I'm not. I'm. I may be in Adams. I may be incredibly eligible. I'm not going to get married. It's not true to who I am. And I don't think we hold that against Oscar, but I do think that we see it a little bit as him not accepting his full potential in some waves.
- [91:32]
A
And he want, he wants the money, like, just undeniably so. He's going for something that is like, there's a very naked drive in his pursuit. And like, yeah, Oscar's a character we root for, but maybe that impulse is something that we're meant to like, indict. Even though it makes, you know, you understand kind of why he would feel compelled to fill the vault again basically after everything that happened. So I'm fascinated to see what happens with Oscar. I like the idea, idea of him being mischievous certainly, but I don't want him to be like a, to turn into like a villain. I would not, not be fond of that. I think I like, I like rooting for Oscar and I want him to be happy. Yeah, I just am. I mean Bertha and George are, you know, have been since day one and remain to me the headliners and the characters I'm most interested in. So I think that like seeing how Bertha, how much of her response to George leaving in the early episodes of season four will be I'm fighting for you and I'm fighting for us and how much will be. I am putting on a brave face to preserve our standing and the illusion that we are still happy. Curious to see, curious to see that. What about you? Who are you most interested in? Jack and Bridget.
- [92:49]
B
It is of course the Russell's but it is, it is with some Jack and Bridget on the side and look, I want to see if Gladys and Hector start doing it. That's, that's, that's what I'm interested in. Male yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to in season four. Are we going to start getting it on?
- [93:06]
A
Yeah.
- [93:06]
B
In some countryside, 15, 15 80s or whatever it is. All right. We love the gilded age.
- [93:15]
A
Can't wait for this.
- [93:15]
B
Of course there will be hats. Can't wait for season four.
- [93:18]
A
If season four started tomorrow it would not be soon enough.
- [93:22]
B
I couldn't agree more. Can't wait. This has been the Prestige TV podcast. Thank you to Mallory Rubin for joining me. Thank you to Kai Grady for producing this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales and thank you to you for listening.