‘The Last of Us’ Season 2 Premiere

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast Summary: ‘The Last of Us’ Season 2 Premiere

Episode Overview

In the premiere episode of Season 2 of ’The Last of Us’, titled Future Days, directed and written by Craig Mason, the podcast hosts Rob Mahoney and Joanna Robinson delve deep into the show's latest developments. They explore character dynamics, thematic elements, and the show's adaptation from the beloved video game, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis enriched with personal insights and critical observations.

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**1. Podcast’s Unique Approach and Intent

Rob Mahoney and Joanna Robinson emphasize their distinct perspective in covering ’The Last of Us’, differentiating their discussions from other extensive podcast analyses. Their approach centers on pure enthusiasm and verve, aiming to create engaging conversations that resonate with both long-time fans and newcomers.

Rob Mahoney (01:10): “Pure, unbridled enthusiasm. Verve vibes, hopefully.”

They acknowledge the existing deep dives by other Ringer personalities but position their podcast as a space dedicated solely to their voice and passion for the series.

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**2. Episode Reception and Ratings

The hosts highlight the impressive viewership numbers for the Season 2 premiere, noting a 12% increase from Season 1’s launch, reaching 5.3 million viewers. This uptick signifies the show's growing popularity and the audience's strong anticipation for the new season.

Joanna Robinson (03:42): “5.3 million viewers tuned in for the premiere, which is not nothing. It's up 12% from its launch in season one.”

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**3. Bottle vs. Brick: A Fun Debate

A lighthearted segment features Rob and Joanna discussing the bottle versus brick debate, a nod to strategic choices in the game for distracting infected enemies. This playful exchange not only entertains but also connects their personal experiences with the show's mechanics.

Rob Mahoney (05:02): “I'm bottle. It's just flashier. You pick up a bottle and you use it to distract a zombie... I'm feeling observed in a way that makes me a little uncomfortable, but also very flattered.”

They encourage listeners to participate by sending in their thoughts via their newly established email: [e-mail].

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**4. Visual and Sound Design Analysis

The hosts delve into the show's visual fidelity and sound design, particularly focusing on iconic scenes like the dance sequence between Ellie and Dina. They commend the meticulous recreation of game scenes, noting how these elements enhance emotional connections and stay true to the source material.

Rob Mahoney (12:58): “It's honestly a pretty emotional experience for that scene... It doesn't feel like cosplay. It feels genuine because all the emotional work makes those moments pay off.”

Joanna adds her appreciation for the cinematic lighting and evocative music, likening the dance scene to nostalgic moments from classic television, thus highlighting the show's ability to blend new and familiar storytelling techniques.

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**5. Character Analysis: Dina, Joel, and Ellie

Dina's Introduction and Appeal

Isabella Merced’s portrayal of Dina receives high praise for her relatable and vibrant energy. Rob and Joanna discuss Dina’s role as a contrast to the more trauma-defined characters Joel and Ellie, appreciating her as an easier-to-like character who brings a sense of normalcy and warmth to the narrative.

Joanna Robinson (15:41): “I have to get back to... Dina is Isabella Merced is amazing. Dina is a much easier to like and warm to character than Joel or Ellie.”

Joel and Ellie’s Evolving Dynamics

The conversation transitions to the evolving relationship between Joel and Ellie, exploring themes of dependence and independence. Rob expresses concerns about Joel’s overbearing nature and Ellie’s quest for personal autonomy, questioning how these dynamics will unfold in the context of the show’s expanding community depiction.

Rob Mahoney (26:50): “Joel is in nesting like little daddy homemaker mode... Ellie is seeking out trouble... they're both right... He is overbearing, she is reckless.”

Joanna reflects on Joel’s role as a good father, underscoring his efforts to rebuild and protect, while contemplating the impact of community versus isolation on his relationship with Ellie.

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**6. Introduction of Abby and Gail

Abby’s Character Introduction

Abby, portrayed by Caitlyn Deaver, is a significant addition to the narrative. The hosts discuss the challenging introduction of Abby, noting that revealing her mission early on—particularly her intent to seek vengeance—can diminish the shock value experienced by game players. Rob expresses apprehension about Abby’s premature characterization, fearing it might saps the impact of her eventual confrontation with Joel.

Rob Mahoney (38:46): “Abby is introduced as someone who is like looking for someone in Jackson... it saps one of the really powerful, jarring moments of the game.”

Gail’s Role in Forgiveness

Gail, a new character not present in the game, symbolizes forgiveness and healing. The hosts appreciate her role as a therapist-like figure who confronts Joel’s actions with a mix of empathy and antagonism, adding depth to the narrative’s exploration of redemption and vengeance.

Joanna Robinson (42:10): “Gail represents this idea of forgiveness in a way that, you know, the show is careening towards.”

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**7. Thematic Elements: Community, Isolation, and Empathy

The podcast delves into the show's central themes, contrasting the sense of community within Jackson against the isolation experienced by Joel and Ellie. They discuss how the establishment of civilization in Jackson challenges Joel and Ellie’s wilderness survival instincts, leading to personal and relational tensions.

Rob Mahoney (19:33): “The cassettes are just piling up... does this mean a full-scale attack on Jackson?”

Additionally, the hosts explore the balance between survival and reflection, highlighting how the narrative strives to maintain humanity amidst chaos. They commend the show for its ability to retain emotional depth, even when adapting gameplay elements for a television format.

Rob Mahoney (31:16): “You are telling a story about survival or you are telling a story about reflection. And it's very, very, very hard to do both.”

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**8. Future Speculations and Adaptation Choices

Rob and Joanna speculate on the show's direction, particularly the potential dramatic arc leading to Joel’s death, as portrayed in the game. They debate the timing of this event within the season's structure, considering how it might affect the overall narrative and character development.

Rob Mahoney (46:42): “I think they could get away with moving Joel's death to the end of episode four, but that’s about as far as it could go.”

They also ponder the implications of flashbacks and narrative restructuring, questioning how the adaptation's altered sequence of events will influence character motivations and audience engagement.

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**9. Closing Thoughts and Listener Engagement

As the episode wraps up, Rob and Joanna reiterate their excitement for exploring the show's developments in future podcasts. They invite listeners to engage with them by sending in thoughts and questions via their dedicated email, fostering a sense of community and interactive discussion.

Joanna Robinson (59:54): “If you have any nomenclature you would like to share with us... Drop us an email.”

They conclude with a light-hearted nod to upcoming topics and shows, maintaining an inviting and personable tone for their audience.

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Notable Quotes

• Rob Mahoney (01:10): “Pure, unbridled enthusiasm. Verve vibes, hopefully.”

• Joanna Robinson (05:02): “Rob has played and loves the Last of Us.”

• Rob Mahoney (12:58): “It doesn't feel like cosplay. It feels genuine because all the emotional work makes those moments pay off.”

• Joanna Robinson (15:41): “Dina is a much easier to like and warm to character than Joel or Ellie.”

• Rob Mahoney (26:50): “Joel is in nesting like little daddy homemaker mode... Ellie is seeking out trouble... they're both right.”

• Joanna Robinson (42:10): “Gail represents this idea of forgiveness in a way that, you know, the show is careening towards.”

• Rob Mahoney (31:16): “You are telling a story about survival or you are telling a story about reflection. And it's very, very, very hard to do both.”

• Rob Mahoney (46:42): “I think they could get away with moving Joel's death to the end of episode four, but that’s about as far as it could go.”

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Conclusion

Rob Mahoney and Joanna Robinson provide a thoughtful and thorough analysis of ’The Last of Us’ Season 2 premiere, balancing appreciation for the show's strengths with critical perspectives on its adaptation choices. Their discussion offers valuable insights into character development, thematic depth, and the challenges of translating an interactive game experience into a compelling television narrative. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the episode's intricacies, enhancing their viewing experience and anticipation for future installments.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we are here to deliver to you the ninth the Last of Us podcast episode on the Ringer podcast feed. Hello. We're here to talk to you about season two, episode one of the Last of Us. It's titled Future Days and directed by Craig Mason and written by Craig Mason. So we talked about this a little bit on a previous pod. Sort of like why we wanted to do this podcast when. When Mallory and I are also doing a deep dive coverage on a House of R. Yep. There's button mash episodes about it. There's Midnight Boys episodes about it. Chris and Andy talked about it. So what can Rob and Joanna bring to the table after. After all of that? Rob Mahoney, what do you think? What are we. What are we bringing to the table here with our late in the week sort of dive into the Last of Us?

[Rob Mahoney]

Pure, unbridled enthusiasm.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ooh.

[Rob Mahoney]

Verve vibes, hopefully. Vibes. I hope that's what our listeners have come to expect from us, and I hope we can deliver on that front. But honestly, I don't think it's that much more complicated than we both love this show. The show is a massive deal, and so to omit it from the Prestige TV podcast feels like an oversight. And for me personally, I simply demand a space to have my voice heard on a show that is, and I will say, a property that is very important to me as someone who loves, loves, loves these two games.

[Joanna Robinson]

So here's the deal. Rob has played and loves the Last of Us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have watched a cinematic playthrough of the first game, and I'm almost done with my cinematic playthrough of the second game. So we know what happens. We are not going to spoil what happens outside of a spoiler section at the end of the pod.

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our goal for this podcast, to make it feel like something distinct from the other Last of Us episodes that you'll see on the ringer feed. Other than our you said Verve, I will add maybe vim and vigor. Sure. We're hoping to have some conversations with people who worked on the show. So that's, you know, sort of interview opportunities as they may come up. Come up is something we were hoping to explore, which Mallory and I simply do not have time for. The two and a half hours.

[Rob Mahoney]

You don't want to add another half hour to the runtime.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why not? I think. I think everyone's good. So. So we don't have an interview this week, but hopefully in episodes going forward, we will have interviews with folks who have worked on the show, checking in sort of later in the week on some of their thoughts is our plan, our hope, our dream.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I'm going to have many questions for them, Jo, because this is such a surreal experience for me as someone who, as you know, does not read a lot of fiction. When you and I cover things, I am not usually attuned to the source material. And many moments watching the season premiere of the Last of Us, in which I felt conflicted, I felt anger at adaptive choices. I felt frustration, I felt confusion. Again, I'm staying the course. I want to be along for the ride. This is a season that has been sort of reconfigured from the game overall. And I think overall, the creative challenge for the people who made the game now getting a second chance to kind of rewrite and retell a new version of that story with all the benefit of hindsight, it's just a fascinating experience. But for someone who loved that game, I feel a little jumbled up. You know, I feel a little turned about. I'm trying to figure out how to feel about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, I love that. Okay, two things before we get into some of the things we want to talk about. And then again, we will have a spoiler section so Rob can just, like, fully unleash his spoilery thoughts. But 5.3 million viewers tuned in for the premiere, which is not nothing. It's up 12% from its. Its launch in season one. So this is. We're. We're doing well because season one felt like HBO was like a smash Ola hit for us. So the fact that we're doing better than. Even better than season one, H2 has to be feeling good about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

But how many of those 5.3 million are undead? Like, how do we. How do we actually crunch the numbers on that?

[Joanna Robinson]

Can a fungus work the Max website? It's a. The little. A little funky sometimes. I have a really important question for you. This is something I just learned from perusing the subreddit the last couple of days.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, I love a subreddit. Are you Rob Mahoney, player of the Last of Us?

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you Team Bottle or Team Brick?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm bottle. It's just flashier.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, they both have their place, but I am a bottle guy, first and foremost.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you want to explain A, what that is, and B, how did you then feel to see yourself represented in the premiere when Ellie went for the bottle?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a very powerful moment for me. You know, I don't get to be represented on screen very often, Joe. You know my demographics. This is what I'm saying. But you pick up a bottle and you use it to distract a zombie, and all of a sudden I'm just feeling, I'm feeling observed in a way that makes me a little uncomfortable, but also very flattered. So within the game, the Last of us, obviously, you're trying to dodge and manipulate all of these zombies who have various different sensory abilities. Some can see you, some can only hear you. And so to distract some, you might throw a bottle to create some noise, you might throw a brick to create some. Some clattering to break a window, whatever it may be. But if I'm given the choice, I'm going to take the bottle every time.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, well, we, we will come down then as a united front. Pro bottle on this, on this podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank God. I was so worried.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was about to ask people to write in their thoughts or feelings and I realized we don't have an email yet for this run. Ramoni, have you come with any hopefully mushroom based, but not necessarily mushroom based emails to suggest to folks to email us?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do have some, of course, off the top, you can always email [e-mail] if you don't want to participate in our little game of creating a new email address for every show we cover. I have a couple, Joe. I'm conflicted on them for one. This first episode gives us a lot of cute little bits to work with, but we're kind of just getting into the story and so you don't want to get ahead of over our skis, so to speak, as far as what we're actually talking about here. Can infecteddomathmail.com the question is out there. Many people are wondering. To'Lily Tomlinmail.com Brittanyandthejugboysmail.com and we can debate as to who is Brittany and who is a jug boy on this podcast. Between me, you, and Donnie, I'm up for debate. My personal favorite, though, this is your brain on shrooms. Gmail.com. how do you, how do you feel about that one?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm obsessed with this. Is your brain on shrooms? Is it available?

[Rob Mahoney]

I did check and it was available. Let's, let's do a little confirmation here before we give it out officially.

[Joanna Robinson]

I can't believe you did a prerecord check. This is the first time we've done that. This is incredibly efficient of you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, no well, we'll. We'll see if it actually paid off for us. This is your brain on shrooms. We are locked in.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so this is your brain on shrooms. Gmail dot com is where we're landing. Rob. What a talent you have for this. Um, so send us your tea bottle or tea brick thoughts. Also, any other thoughts you have. This is something I love about the Prestige feed is. Is interacting with the listeners and hearing from you guys. And the. The inbox has been a little dry between seasons. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. We still got a lot of Spinal Tap takes based off of our coverage of the pit.

[Joanna Robinson]

We got a lot of spinal. I know a lot more about Spinal Taps than I ever really cared to. But thank you all for. For writing it. We did ask for that information.

[Rob Mahoney]

And if at some point during this season of the Last of Us, we need to extract some spinal fluid, we're going to know exactly how to do it, and we're going to know exactly where they may be going wrong.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you feel like spinal fluid of something of, like, an infected would be like, mushroom brothy? Would that. Would that be what it would be like?

[Rob Mahoney]

I kind of hope so. Now, see, now we're getting somewhere. Can you eat an Infected? What are the ethics of eating an infected?

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry. As someone who just finished covering a season of Yellowjackets, I will say you can definitely eat an Infected.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, but will it make you infected?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, well, you. You just mentioned ethics. You didn't mention.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm trying to. Practicalities and ethics. I'm trying to figure out whether this is something I should plan my weekend around.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like you should, like. Okay, here's a couple options. One, we go the full yellow jackets route and just like, spit roast the whole infected. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do love a roasted mushroom.

[Joanna Robinson]

Another option is we're shaving sort of mushroomy bits off.

[Rob Mahoney]

More of a truffle approach.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I would more tempted to do the shaving part and then I would want to really cook it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I feel like once it's really cooked, like, I would want to do, like, the growth things, the shelves, the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Plates that are kind of coming in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. The shelf plates. Nothing tendrilly like, no tendrils are. Are absolutely not crossing my palate. Okay, great. Glad we decided that. And as you know, I don't know if you know this, but, like, when it's the last of a season, I get into cooking mushroom recipes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I got a really good mushroom and leek galette recipe from a listener that I'm going to try out this weekend.

[Rob Mahoney]

You do love a galette.

[Joanna Robinson]

You are, you are a foodie. So if you want to get in on cooking some mushroom recipes, you let us know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't want to step on the house of our bits. And overall, this is, this is the problem too. You know, your established canonical reference points of cooking all these mushroom recipes with Mallory. We on prestige were so used to a severance type show in which we're theorizing with and around the people who are listening. And so this is new territory for us where we're gonna have to find our way, stumble through the darkness that is, you know, this abandoned grocery store of a podcast and figure out how we are gonna be communicating with each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, let me throw a bottle and hopefully send you in the right direction, which is something that you brought up as something maybe we could talk about today that Mal and I didn't really touch on is this idea of like maybe more specifically the visuals of the first episode. And I was curious to talk to you as someone who. Well, first of all, have you played the re any of the remastered version of the Last of Us that just came out?

[Rob Mahoney]

I've only played the remastered first game, so I have not played in part the remaster of the second second game came out so soon after its original release that I like, I'm already pretty good in terms of the graphical fidelity of the Last of Us Part two. I don't know that I needed a huge update, but I'm glad it exists.

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[Joanna Robinson]

[e-mail] so inside of this episode, I'm curious for you, a game player, if something that Mel and I got slightly wrong is that there, the dancing that's in the first episode does exist in the game, but exists as a flashback. So we hadn't gotten there yet. We have now, but we hadn't gotten there yet when we talked about it. So like. And my understanding is that the way that this dance scene with Ellie and Dina plays out in the show is almost shot for shot, basically shot for shot as the game. So what does seeing something like that you were talking about sort of like grumbling about fidelity to the text and stuff like that. When you see something that is so meticulously. And Craig Mason talked about this on the official podcast, how hard they worked to get everything the same inside of that sequence as it is in the game. What does that do for you as a viewer and as a game player?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's honestly a pretty emotional experience for that scene. In particular, that dance scene is one that I love and I think its placement in the game, as you're saying, it's a little different because it is a flashback and you're. You're kind of jumping through time somewhat. Somewhat. But it's so beautiful. And I think it captures something that's so important about the Last of Us, right, which is getting these shreds of actual humanity within this post apocalyptic world, getting this actual human connection. And I always get a little nervous when you have a source text like this or I think it also applies to graphic novels and comic books too. And you're like trying to recreate a splash page, like a very specific visual. It usually turns out coming pretty hollow ultimately. Like you have the emotional connection to whatever the source material is. You see it on screen and it's like, I get what you're doing, but I don't really. It doesn't resonate with me in any meaningful way. What makes the Last of Us work as well as it does is that with these big moments like this dance scene, like, you know, the climactic kind of like lie at the end of season one, like these huge emotional moments of the show and of the game that it's pulling from, it doesn't feel like cosplay. It doesn't feel like you're just kind of set dressing to make it look like the game even Though you are doing that. And I think the reason it doesn't feel that way is because you've done all the emotional work to make those moments pay off. But so I see that scene and I am, I'm like pulled in. Like I see the dangling out, slightly out of focus lights and I am just like locked into this moment and I am pulled back to the experience of playing the game and kind of what it felt like unpacking this narrative in that way. But did that scene work for you on an emotional level? Do like, did you feel attached to Dina in particular, who we just met within the world of the show?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And I think that, I think of all the things that has worked for people out of this first episode of season two. Isabella Merced as Dina has been sort of like this runaway smashola hit for people.

[Rob Mahoney]

And she has been for a while a like, who is that kind of actor where she'll pop up in a lot of things that's like, there's just something about her energy that really pops.

[Joanna Robinson]

Her energy is really good. And I kind of want to get back to I don't know, something that we talked about a bit in recent coverage of shows. This idea of like Dina is Isabel Merced is amazing. And also Dina is a much easier to like warm to character than a Joel or an Ellie who have gone through so much, are going through so much are defined in a lot of ways by their trauma. Stuff like that we don't know inside of the show yet. Dina's whole story. Why is her outlook so sunny? Why is she such a, you know, suck up the marrow, the bone of life sort of person? I don't know why I said it like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

And well, we ran out of fungus. We had to eat something.

[Joanna Robinson]

So like, I think, I think I loved her. Everyone loved her and, and she's quite easy to love. But that's part of the point of I think of the character and I think what worked for me not knowing that this was a shot for shot remake of this section of the game, what worked for me, it's. It's just beautifully, beautifully lit. The music is incredible and really evocative. I love a moment like this inside of a show. I immediately flashed in Dawson's Creek, but I'm sure there are more actual prestige high tone versions of this, but just sort of like a dance shared between two characters when there's like tension and there's a really good song that goes with it and then you wind up having that association with that song for I Love. I love a bluegrass number, personally. And so I just. I think it worked really well. And I think thinking about it a few days later, I mean, Mallory and I recorded our app early, so like a week and a half ago. But thinking about it a few days later from premiere, listening to Craig Mason talk about this idea of, like, community and how important this idea of community of Jackson was for them to establish. So we're at this dance. We're inside of this functioning community. What we get that's in addition to the game is the idea of, like, government and Jackson. Government work in Jackson. What's the infrastructure in Jackson?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they need an infrastructure package, that's for sure. The pipes are simply at a level of disrepair. That is not acceptable.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's tough. It's so upsetting. But. But that shot we get of Ellie all alone. Ellie surrounded by life and celebration and joy and just her all alone at the bar, watching until Dina pulls. Tries to pull her into, you know, an ordinary, extraordinary life experience. And what that says about Ellie as someone who we watched in season one work so hard to become a unit of two, and then the fraction of the fissure that we get inside of that here in season two, where that leaves Ellie in relation to everyone else, how does that contrast between community and Ellie all alone or Joel all alone on the porch work for you?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it works really well. I think this is one of those things where in terms of the visuals of the Last of Us, this is a show and the game is based on. With a lot of negative space, a lot of, like, sprawling countrysides and forests that are vacant, a lot of, you know, cities that have been overrun and overgrown. And you're used to this idea that if there's a lot of stuff happening in the scene, like, visually speaking, if there's a lot of clutter, it's usually a very dangerous area. Right? It's like. It is. It is a store that has been, like, ransacked and is now overrun with infected or whatever. It's a lot of. A lot of clutter around is a bad thing. And so to see somewhere like Jackson that is approaching actual civilization with a sort of bustling life is so disorienting in the world of the Last of Us. But I think is. Is kind of hitting at why everything for Joel and Ellie is turning on its head. Like, these are two people who learned how to live out in the wilderness by themselves, codependent, basically, strictly on each other. And now Ellie is trying to be a person independent of Joel and Joel for A bunch of different reasons is like holding on way, way too tight in a way that is overbearing, that is limiting to Ellie. Even independent of the extraordinary circumstances that they've been to. Like, for a teenage girl, this is not something that many teenage girls would want.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. I think. I think it's really interesting and I think it's so interesting to show Joel in his fatherly role, both with his nephew and with Dina calling Dina kiddo. Stuff like that, which is like a word he's only ever used for Ellie. Like that. Joel is many things, but one of those things is he's a good dad. Like, he is a good dad.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, debatable.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I think he is a good dad. I think what he did at the end of season one is on a different level than just. That's true. I'm just sort of keeping that.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not a normal dad dilemma.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, as far as I know you, this is your brain on shrooms gmail.com. if you and dad have ever had to come to this crossroads, it's obviously in the dad bucket in terms of like, what we wouldn't do for your kids sort of thing. But like, in terms of like ordinary day in, day out, if we're living in ordinary peacetime circumstances for Joel, we're capable of good dadding. And we saw that with his kiddo in season one, episode one. I'm curious, in terms of the visual, one last thing I want to hit on the visuals. I love that point you made about sort of when we see activity, it's usually scary. There's also this other aspect of gameplay versus watching a show. And this is a lot of what the co creators, Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann talk about when they talk about adaptation is it's such a different prospect playing a game and being that character.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Versus watching a story being told to you. And something that, you know, I remember Chris Ryan talking a lot about when we were on our respective shows covering adolescence is this idea of, like, how do you engender empathy through visual storytelling and adolescence if you didn't listen to that pot or watch that show? A show that was told in these long one shots, but like how the act of moving your camera through space can engender point of view or give you point of view for one character or another. And so in inside of this section of the game, you know, we'll talk about Abby a lot more in. In the spoiler section. But like, you know, this is a character you can play at the beginning of The Last of Night. You can. You are playing and you don't know her and you're playing her and that automatically puts you in this sort of relational space to that character. So did you have any thoughts about that as a game player or how the visuals in, in this episode helped get us in the POV of any specific characters?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think it's the hardest thing to replicate. You know, as far as like video game adaptations go, there's a reason why for the longest time they just did not work. And some of that had to do with kinds of games they were adapting. And even some of those challenges still exist. Like the challenge of adapting Super Mario Brothers into the Super Mario Brothers movie versus the Last of Us. Like the Last of Us was written and storyboarded and designed to be cinematic. It was begging for, if not a movie than a TV series. And so you can do that sort of shot for shot reconstruction of a lot of the things that happened. And frankly, there's just nothing important that happens in the games that is not a shot of someone's face. And so how you translate that to a close up or like it's very easily applicable, I think to the medium, but the thing can't replicate. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can you explain that a little bit more? There is nothing important that happens in the game that isn't a shot of someone's face, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

So there's obviously all of the connective tissue of the gameplay in which you are fighting off zombies, escaping from other people who are trying to abduct you or kill you or kind of trying to navigate from place to place. But the Last of Us is mostly concerned with the emotional beats between Joel and Ellie first and foremost and then between the other characters that they introduce as the two games go on. And so there's so many pauses in between to take. Take a moment with them, you know, at a little campsite, right as they're navigating through these areas, these sorts of conversations that are happening between these two people. And I think the show does a good job of sort of capturing that quiet pretty well. And if anything, I think it does a little bit better overall the series does in capturing the quiet and maybe not as much of capturing the noise of what it's like to play the Last of Us to the extent that it needs to do that. I don't know. But it's not a straight one to one because you can't replicate the sheer amount of time that you have spent as a game player throwing bottles and shit, trying to kill zombies. Like, you're not gonna. You're not gonna put 30 hours of killing zombies on screen for a season of television. It would never make sense to do it. But you can capture these quiet moments. And the way that you do that is you focus on these performances, on the emotionality of these characters, on how they're kind of pulled and pushed away from each other. You also find the camera lingering a lot on implements, right? On cleaning a gun, on, like, getting a knife ready, on pens, on thread. It's like, it's such a tactile show in that way. And some of that is because people are trying to be quiet as they're creeping around in the world, but some of it is, I think, just sort of filling that space, that, like, natural silence that exists between these people who are just on a long road trip effectively together in the first game, or as we get into in the second game, doing all sorts of other things. But you have to fill that space in a way that feels true to those characters and feels true to the stakes of those moments. And so it is a little bit more about the tools that you carry with you. And from that, you can see, oh, this stopped. Watch. What does that tell us about Joel? What does it mean about Ellie that she's always grabbing for this knife? You can find these attachments to items in the world as character beats themselves.

[Joanna Robinson]

And what gets neglected. The. We talked about this a lot in season one. This idea of, like, what you carry, the things you carry when you're on the road like that. And in Jackson, of course, it's a little different. They've planted and. And they're accumulating things around them. They're filling these homes.

[Rob Mahoney]

The cassettes are just piling up. You know, you really got things to plug into that boombox, but the guitar.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is languishing on the ground. And this important item, which, you know, we'll talk about more as the show goes on, but, like, yeah, also something that I love that the showrunners said that hadn't occurred to me inside of this first episode is Joel's role as a builder, like, how he builds things. Joel as provider is something we talked about a lot in. In season one, but Joel as a physical builder of things, a tinker, a fixer of things.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'll.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll restring your guitar. I will fix this. This piece of machinery that has stopped working. I will build these houses. I will do all of this. And then Ellie, to a certain degree, the showrunners didn't really put it this way, but this is sort of how I'm viewing it, as like a destructive force. And I don't mean that negatively necessarily, but like that she is a creature of violence. Joel also is. Yes, but like that she has this relish in it and she loves taking something apart and pulling it down.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And how those things are at odds with each other. Maybe just as personality types, but also maybe time of life types. If, if ellie is a 19 year old is all about sort of like pulling things apart and pulling things down and Joel, you know, into his is later middle decades is, is about building things up. I think that's a really interesting way in which we could think about what, outside of the big lie at the end of season one, pull these characters apart. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, they have a vibe of a family that just moved to the suburbs. And I say that affectionately where it's like Joel is in nesting like little daddy homemaker mode. He is trying to get closer to Ellie. He is trying to build back what he had before everything started. Ellie is I think bored, I think seeking out trouble in a lot of the situations. She wants to be on patrol, she wants to be shooting zombies, she wants to put herself in harm's way in certain situations in a way that is reckless. Like I think what works about the Joel and Ellie dynamic is that they are both right. He is overbearing, she is reckless to the point that she's getting bit repeatedly. And like, again, granted, she doesn't have the same stakes in that as everyone else does, but really putting herself in danger. And I think the fact that she is looking for trouble in that way is such an interesting manifestation for this character and is something that I love seeing on TV too. Especially for like a young, a teenage girl. Right. Like this sort of like self destructive vibe. Kid. We've seen many, many boys inhabit that role. And what makes Ellie such a cool character to watch and to monitor is the way that she's navigating distinctly being a girl in these spaces. Like people are constantly questioning her, why are you going into that house when obviously it's okay for Tommy and Joel to do it. But why are you as a teenage girl doing it? Why are you safe in these spaces or not safe in these spaces? And she just mostly wants to stab people, to be honest with you. And she's not terribly concerned with everything else. Maybe most of all her own personal safety she doesn't seem too bothered with.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that, I think that's so interesting and I'm like, I once again, please Enjoy our coverage of Yellowjackets over at House of R. But, like, we've been talking about this a lot. When we talk about teenage girls and violence or teenage girls and carnality and that kind of power, and I think that's really interesting. Inside of an apocalyptic world, what societal norms can you actively rebuild? Yeah. You know, and we get. We get some aspects of that inside of the dance scene when we have Seth roll up with, you know, the homophobia, and it's just sort of like, really, in the mushroom apocalypse, you still have space for homophobia.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who has the time, frankly? Seriously, go fix the pipes.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a lot to do. Seth, we don't have time for this. But, yeah, like, gender roles or. Or like, parent versus child roles. When are you an adult inside of a mushroom apocalypse world?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I think that's one area where Ellie is really chafing, too, especially in this first episode. Is this. This idea that. Yes, she was dependent on Joel to get to, you know, the hospital to meet the fireflies, to get across the country. That's not something she was capable of doing herself. I don't know that she ever really signed up to be his daughter. You know, like, she needed his help and his protection, and they have a certain kind of connection that is really powerful and is, I think, transcends like, smuggler and smugly smuggler and cargo, however you want to define it. But I think there is something about her and Joel's relationship that goes beyond whatever she may think about him telling her the truth or not, whether she believes the lie that he has told her. That's like, this is a little more than I was signing up for. And now. And now that he is, like, so much trying to put her, like, you live in this house with me. I am your father. Like, I'm stopping short of calling myself your dad to other people, but functionally, I'm acting like your dad, I think puts her in kind of a tricky spot.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's so interesting because, like, that. That. That wasn't my interpretation of season one in terms of, like, it felt like she. She was constantly the seeker.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I think you're right that there could be, you know, just become, like, a line that was crossed where the position. Obviously, the positions have been flipped.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's like, now Joel wants more of the relationship that Nellie wants to give on this. I. On this idea of, like, it's the mushroom apocalypse. Do we even have time for this? Seth, what do you want to say about this approach, this particular approach to apocalyptic storytelling, I think, and this is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Where the Last of Us Again really, really works and why it's as successful as it, as it was as a game and I think why the show resonates with so many people. To me, there's basically two ways to do post apocalyptic storytelling. Either you are telling a story about survival or you are telling a story about reflection. And it's very, very, very hard to do both. Like, it's really hard to get into like, the emotional aspects of surviving the end of the world without getting really indulgent in those emotions and grind everything to a halt.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can you give me an example of like, the reflective approach to apocalyptic storytelling?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we're seeing it right now. Right. Like so many aspects of this state, this first episode are reckonings for Joel. What have you done? Right, like you have survived. You made it to Jackson. Like you, you got from point A to point B in terms of getting Ellie to the, to the hospital and then some. But like, Joel is now reckoning with this lie he's told to Ellie. He's reckoning with killing Eugene and having to deal with Gale in the aftermath of that. He's dealing with this group of fireflies led by Abby that are now searching for him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

There was a lot of like, what, what did you do to get here and at what cost? Yeah, and I think for understandable reasons, a lot of like zombie oriented or pandemic oriented content are a lot more about, like, can you survive to get to the place, get to that island so that you don't have to worry about the zombies anymore? And that's a really cool and fun story to tell when it's done right. But to do it without losing track of the humanity of what it costs to get there, I think is a really difficult balancing act. And it's where a lot of things, like, for example, the Walking Dead, I think struggled with it could only go 100 miles an hour or 0 miles an hour. And when it was going 1, you felt the absence of the other.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that, yeah, you're right, that this is like a lot of chickens coming home to roost sort of thing. What is the cost of your comfort and your safety, your walls in Jackson? What is the social contract? And also like, when you mentioned, you know, Mallory and I, when we talk about the show, always inevitably wind up talking about Station 11. But that is a, that is a story the way that they did that television adaptation. That is a story where you are in reflection, rebuild mode for Half of the story and like, panic, survival mode for one half of the story. And so you're sort of interacting between the two and this sort of like, how do we rebuild inside of Jackson? How. What. What is our future? What are the future days to, you know, steal from the title of the episode for us, when the apocalypse is still raging outside of the walls is. Is really wild to me. You know what I mean? Like, I love the. The safety and security and, and. And society that they're trying to build here inside of Jackson. I love that, like, Tommy and Maria's kid is grown up inside of a relatively safe environment, but it's not over outside, out over yonder. So I think that's. I think it's really interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think for people like Ellie too, it kind of can't be over. There are so many characters like we talked about all the. Joel is a person who has lived through a lot, who has done a lot of terrible shit to kind of make it this far. Ellie has done some of those things for survival. Right. She's had to kill people to stay alive. She's had to go through this entire ordeal that we saw in season one that would be harrowing for anybody. But she's also someone who we see at this stage now that she has been kind of put behind the city walls. There is a, like, ferocity to her that keeps kind of popping out of the corners. And you see it like in this first kind of fight, fake fight she has with this, like, bear of a man where she goes a little too far. I think you see it even more when she and Dina are sweeping the supermarket. And just like the. In terms of the physical choreography of how Ellie fights, she like mounts this clicker and stabs him in the neck conservatively 80 times. Like, just really going to town on this guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm sorry to tell you, like, first of all, I'm not making it this far in the apocalypse at all. So, like, it's not. It's a moot point anyway.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But if I'm ever in a position where I have a stabbing implement and there is a clicker near me, 80 is like bare minimum number of times I'm stabbing them in the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I'm stabbing them zero times. I'm getting the fuck out of there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Great point.

[Unknown]

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. Non alcoholic brews. The other day, was golfing with some of the guys. They're like, hey, you want anything? I was like, I'm an adult. I got stuff to do. Tonight I'm not doing one of these like semi retired. Deals you 18 holes and see how it goes. Luckily, Athletic Brewing Company had reached out to me. They sent me a bunch of stuff including the Irish Red or the Run Wild ipa and my personal favorite, Upside Dawn. A nice little golden goes well with a few holes of golf this March. Don't miss the sports action with athletic. Head to athleticbrewing.com ringer to find it near you or shop online. That's athleticbrewing.com R I N G E R to find award winning Athletic na brews near you. Athletic Brewing company fit for all times.

Near beer this episode is brought to you by the Home Depot. It's starting to look like spring. And spring starts with savings. At the Home Depot. There are savings for every project. Whether you're starting with a queen slate with convenient cordless power like a new pressure washer or leaf blower, or starting to love the yard again with colorful flowers and fresh mulch. Start your spring with early savings at the Home Depot. Shop now at homedepot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Com.

[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. This is one of those things I'm curious if you have the same relationship that I do because like from playing the game, the guttural sound of the clickers, which are look, our vocal fry kings, like we salute you and the work that you're doing. My body has like a visceral response to hearing it because they are so intimidating for the especially the early parts of the first game. I'm just like fucking terrified of these guys.

[Joanna Robinson]

For me, it's on a sound design front. It's the stalkers because their sound is so much more human.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very moany.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wh. But it's like you can like almost hear the lingering human inside of them in pain. You know what I mean? That is like so uncomfortable. Also, something. Something that I that a few people have pointed out that I thought was so interesting is this idea like this. The fact that the. The city council, if that's what we're calling it, like that no one there has heard of a stalker. No one there knows about the stalkers means that the stalkers have probably killed every single person they've Ever encountered. And something that could be Craig Mason was pointing out is that the stalker won the encounter with Ellie. Ellie lost.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, she. Big time.

[Joanna Robinson]

She just happens to be immune. But, like, the stalkers have an on a percent success rate.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

With what they've encountered. And that is. I don't know, Rob. Very scary. It's not great.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it's not great. Especially when, like, as Ellie and the council are sort of discussing all of their preconceived notions about what these infected are capable of are kind of thrown out the window when you start introducing, like, rational thought or like even the ability to lure someone in or do basic mathematics, you know, to pass an Algebra 1 test.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, before we get into the spoiler section, I want to ask you about Abby, played by our mutual fave, Caitlyn Deaver. Absolutely. You know, Abby is such an important presence in the second game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

There has been so much chatter from the game players about Abby and how she's introduced here. Anything you can say in a spoiler free way about that or do we have to shove all of that behind the spoiler wall?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's tricky just because we've seen so little so far. Right. Like just the kind of outset of her journey. And I think clearly she's an important character in the way that they have framed it to establishing the emotional and physical cost of everything that Joel has done to this point. And this is like one group of people that Joel ran through. At the end of the day, our guy has killed many, many folks out there in the wilderness, many under more nefarious pretenses, you know, other people trying to attack him or Raiders or whatever. But, like, this was a group of people in the Fireflies that if you're going to have like a face for that sort of trauma. Caitlyn Deaver has it and I think is a very empathizing force already as far as, like, helping us understand, like, this is a sort of double parallel for Joel and Ellie. Right. Like, you can see elements of Ellie's story in Abby even so far. You can see elements of Joel's loss of his daughter in Abby's story so far. And so creating a counterpoint when we are naturally tethered to Joel and Ellie's perspective, as you said, and that is an area that transcends the game into the show is like, you are naturally going to be understanding of what they have gone through and the decisions that they've made above any other character that you're gonna be introduced to. And so how do we transport Some of that empathy to somebody else. How do we zoom out and figure out, like, what. How do these people we love and care about fit into a story about humanity?

[Joanna Robinson]

Somebody else. And somebody else whose agenda, as it's stated inside of this episode, is counter to our desire.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our desire is for Joel and Ellie to live happily ever after in Jackson together, united, father and daughter.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't want to presume people may want different things. Some people out there may just want to, like, grow a weed farm in the post apocalypse, you know, like, everyone wants something a little different.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're no Eugene, though. So what are you gonna do?

[Rob Mahoney]

That green thumb. Really something else.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything else you want to say before we do some spoilers?

[Rob Mahoney]

One little shout out. Again, this is not spoiler, but maybe more of a treat for the game players as opposed to the people who are just watching the show. But the composer of both the music for the game and the show, Gustavo Centillaia, appears as a member of the dance band. Was delighted to see as somebody who, like, if we're talking about the visual language of the show, the last of us is not the last of us without this, like, sparse, gorgeous guitar forward soundtrack. And so I thrilled to see him pop up and get a little cameo moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

One of the Jug Boys.

[Rob Mahoney]

One of the Jug Boys. Or I mean, maybe he could be Brittany.

[Joanna Robinson]

Brittany himself.

[Rob Mahoney]

Canonically, I cannot dispute Santo is Brittany.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so we are going to do a little spoiler section, you know, just. Just touching on a few things here there that happen in the game. Really encourage people to peace out if they. If they don't want to hear what. What happens. You know, Mallory and I were very firm about this on House of R, but this is, this is a story that you're really going to want to experience how you want to experience it, and we would like to protect you in that in all ways possible. So that's this very lengthy preamble was your excuse to press stop on the pod and leave. Are you ready? Did you leave?

[Rob Mahoney]

You are the Joel to their Ellie. You know, you're just trying to boost them over various ledges, keep them safe from being bitten here and there. I respect the work that you do, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do my best. All right, spoilers. I actually want to start more esoterically rather than talk about the massive thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

That everyone wants to talk about, not just elephant in the room, but like elephant with a bomb shoved up its ass in the room that's about to explode at any moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

I want to talk to you about Gale and something that Mallory and I did not really get into is Gail, the therapist who is an addition to the show is not in the game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

But who represents this idea of forgiveness in a way that, you know, the show is careening towards. And if you're listening to this and haven't played the game, but you want the spoilers anyway, that's fine. Careening towards Joel's death at the hands of Abby and Abby's vent, like unquenchable vengeance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And. And the. The dissatisfaction she gets in that act because it doesn't heal the hurt inside of her. And Ellie's unrelenting, then, you know, seeking vengeance. Tommy and his vengeance that he goes after. And so Gail is someone who is, like, angry and heartbroken that her husband is dead, but is nonetheless talking to Joel about it and trying to work through it as this sort of counterbalance. What does that do for the larger story as far as you're concerned?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm honestly fascinated to find out, just because, as you said, Gael is such a new function within the story. Like, not only having somebody who is actively trying to forgive Joel in her own way, but in the moment, very much despises him. And is the sort of counterpoint where, as you and Mal talked about, like, this is a fascinating spin on the idea of in show therapy, having someone who's this adversarial, who is, like, this sharp in her own way and this wounded in her own way. Like, this is not the role that these kinds of characters usually play, and there's nothing like it in the game whatsoever. And so having. Look, Joel's been working out things for a long time on people's faces, on various infected that he meets out in the world, snapping at Ellie when she does very little to deserve it. You know, like, there's a long history of this stuff. And so getting him in therapy makes sense in a lot of ways. I think it also just gives Pedro Pascal something to do at this stage in the season where he is feeling so isolated. Right. That character is being shut off from the most meaningful connection in his life. And he's trying to figure out. He thinks he's trying to figure out why. He mostly knows why, I suspect. But I love that we get that from Pedro specifically. And it's all the more funny that he's also on Mando, where they put him in a helmet and never show his face in any capacity whatsoever, I assume. So he doesn't have to show up on location for work. But who's to say? Just like you can't I don't know of another space in this show where you would get the moment of him sort of wrestling, walking all the way up to the edge of like, do I need to say this thing that I'm scared of out loud? And then pulling back in such a guarded way? Those are the kinds of moments from Joel that I think are really powerful and are hard to replicate with other characters because he doesn't trust anybody other than Tommy. I guess Tommy is the one exception to that rule.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right inside of the game, we have him have a conversation with Tommy where he tells him what happens. But I don't know, I'm just really interested to see, you know, what Gail can. I don't know how. How active she will be in the show going forward. Yeah, I don't know how active Jackson is going to be in the show going forward, all of that. But yeah, as this sort of, like, it can ha. You don't have to, like, not feel your feelings in order to try to find. Make peace with someone. You can feel all of that rage, anger, resentment, fear, all of those things and not let it consume you necessarily. Hopefully that's Gail's future.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, well, as far as that, like, how much are we going to see of Gail and of Jackson in the show? What is your sense of the pacing of this big reveal? Like, we are careening toward Joel's death. We have seven episodes this season. Again, we're in full spoilers now. There is a significant portion of the game after Joel's death, but before the kind of story change over to more of Abby's perspective full time. And so it's like I'm going back and forth on when I think they're going to drop that particular bomb. But I get the sense from this early going that they might be trying to stretch it out a little bit more.

[Joanna Robinson]

So how, How. How late can you. Do you think they can get away with doing it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think they could get away with. Would feel rushed, but you could potentially move it to like, the very end of episode four, I think is about as late as you can push it. There's a lot to do after the. After that fact, but I think that's about as far as it could go.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're saying Joel surviving.

[Rob Mahoney]

Joel's. Joel's death, I think would. The furthest I think it could go would be the end of episode four.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I mean, certainly everyone on the show and everyone at HBO wants Pedro Pascal to be active in the show for as long as possible. But there are, and this feeds nicely into the next thing I want to ask you about, because there are flashbacks galore.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. He will be back.

[Joanna Robinson]

And one moment we get in this episode that again, since Mallory and I had not finished our, you know, homework, didn't realize the significance of, is the porch sequence that happens at the end of this episode. So at the end of episode one, season two, episode one, we see Joel on the porch with a guitar and Ellie walking up and seemingly like sort of walking past him. And that's all we see.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

In the game towards the end, it is revealed that she comes out and talks to him and has this moment of maybe we can figure out a path forward through this, which is not something you as a game player know until the very end. So is this something like when you saw this moment, were you worried that they were gonna, like, give you the full scene right here inside of this episode? And if not, or whatever, do you want that to be like the last scene of the show? Like, where. Where do you want that to show up?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I'm glad that they held it. You kind of have to, Right. I think it's very important for this stage of the story that you're holding some of that back because you want the audience feeling that pull of, I need Joel and Ellie to have a conversation. And you can do enough to manipulate the timeline and in particular to show these, like, absences of time that you later are coming back to fill in. As for where, I'm open minded about that, to be honest with you. I think there's a. Like, they clearly have taken this season as an opportunity to move a lot of things around from their original place in the game. And I think there's plenty of good reason to do it. I think some of it inevitably will be more successful than others. I have a lot of faith based on season one, not just because they moved stuff around, but because the things that they introduced and expanded I found so rewarding in terms of the world building of the last of us. And so I'm excited to see kind of what they do along those lines. That said, the, like, the way Abby is introduced, it makes me a little nervous.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. All right, so let's get to it. Is this the thing?

[Unknown]

It.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did it make you nervous? Did it make you cranky? The thing that she says that seems to have pissed most of the people who are mad about it. Not everyone's mad about it, but the people who are mad about it seem to really think that her specifically her saying killing him slowly. Because in their interpretation of the game. Her decision to draw out his death and torment him is something that is not necessarily pre planned and something that reveals a lot about her in that moment and reveals about something about her to her compatriots in. In that moment. So what are your thoughts on that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's fair game to move around just because you can have some of the same benefit. Even introducing that idea early. Her compatriots are learning this about her now, even though they wouldn't learn it about her later. And they seem uncomfortable, as one should be under the circumstances. I think my bugaboo is less about that element. That line specifically doesn't bother me so much. Just the idea of laying her intentions out so clearly when we're first meeting the character. And this is where this conversation is just inextricable from the reaction to Abby in real time and the reaction to Joel's death in real time. How you respond to that moment in the game and your experience of seeing this character you spent so much time with and you've invested in die in such a brutal way imprints on you as a gamer and now a viewer. And so like, for me, not like to clarify for people who haven't played the game who are just like full speed ahead on spoilers. Anyway, power to you. Abby is introduced as someone who is like looking for someone in Jackson. We don't know who Jackson is a huge place, it could be conceivably anybody, but she and her group are like on a mission to find someone. You don't really know why. And so this idea that you're introduced so early to the idea that it is Joel she's looking for, who she is, what her background is, what her intentions are, to me, saps one of the like, really powerful, jarring moments of the game, which is when Abby and Joel inevitably bump into each other. And so you take some of the, like some of the electricity out of that moment when you already know what you're doing. And so like, look, there's two reasons you're doing that. One, some of the audience backlash against Abby's character and the disapproval of her role in the story and killing Joel and the way all that went down, there's many things to unpack in that. But creating a more like forming a more empathetic bond with that character from jumping, I think is an attempt to stem some of that. Yeah, and you're trading some of the mystery that I found really impactful and really valuable. And I think to me, the mystery of not knowing what Abby is up to. And then suddenly having to realize it all at once and it culminating in such irrevocable violence serves the themes of the Last of Us, Part II in this season and the future seasons of the show. So. Well, you're trading that off for the tension of we know what she's after. And so now when they do bump into each other, you have that sort of building suspense in a way that's going to be new. I just don't know if that's what I want. And now. Now I'm left thinking, Joe, like, are you just doing this all the time? Every time you watch an adaptation of a novel? Are you just sitting here festering in your seat like, I'm festering? It's. It's been complicated.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not festering. I mean, it's. It's curiosity of, like, you know, Neil and Craig have explained it a bit the best they can without getting into the spoilers, because they're not like, giving interviews about spoilers yet, right? So they've explained it a bit. They'll explain it more when we know more inevitable. And there are things about it I like. Obviously, I did not have your visceral sort of experience playing the game in that way, but, like, there are things about it I like, and there are things about it that I understand why it sort of feels like will just depend on how they execute it. You're. You're anticipating, how can they possibly do the thing to me here that they did to me in the game or do the thing to people watching for the first time that they did to me in the game? If they've. If they've rearranged the pieces this way, and we're just gonna have to see what other decisions they've made in order to try to completely affect that. I'm just always curious because I used to get mad, and sometimes I still get mad, but mostly because Craig and Neil are such consummate storytellers. I'm like, what. What were you achieving here that you felt like you didn't achieve in this other way that you did it? And again, they've explained it a little bit, but, like, I. I'm eager to learn more, and it just feeds my. The thing that I love what we do on this show on House of R, et cetera, which is just like. Like, let's pull apart the gears of a story and see how it works and how it fits back together. I'm interested in the thing that I'm very curious about in the upcoming episodes just based on Trailer footage is what seems to be a. Like a full scale attack on Jackson.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of the infected. I mean, we get that. We get, you know, there's. There's the horde that Abby is running from. That's its own thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, like, how many make a horde?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, it's a great question. I think you need like 30. 30 for. What were you thinking?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. Like, so we. We get again, canonical confirmation from Tommy. Six is not enough to be a horse. No, that's. That's just six guys.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe 20. Maybe 20 is enough for a horse.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like a baker's dozen isn't a hoard. What is a baker's dozen of infected? A posse.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's just a. That's just a group.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just a group. It's just a group hang.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a herd. It's like a herd.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

A horde is like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, you're right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what I mean? Like, dear God, I think if you had 13 infected, you could pick them off and have mushroom galettes for dinner. But I think if you've got 20 or 30.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, that's. That's. If not a hoarder murmuration, you know, we're really getting somewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is your brain on [e-mail]. if you have any nomenclature you would like to share with us. Tommy's really. The full scale attack on Jackson, which is. Has been indicated in the trailer, is really interesting to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Tommy is really interesting to me. Tommy being a dad and like, the idea of, like, Tommy, who inside of the game is so consumed by vengeance that he loses Maria, but like Tommy as a dad who's gonna lose his kid in theory because, you know, which is certainly not something that Joel would want at all. Is. Is additionally. Again, that's an adaptive change that is additionally interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

It feels very pointed, especially as you and Mal highlighted the fact that Tommy in the game is the most understanding of Joel's ultimate decision with Ellie and the lie that he told, like. Like putting himself in his shoes, understands it in a way that no other character gets the opportunity do. And so changing his circumstances to make that almost impossible feels like a very direct and deliberate choice.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything else you want to say here in the spoiler section?

[Rob Mahoney]

Just that for all of the hand wringing I have done about Abby, and.

[Joanna Robinson]

Again, like, I'm genuinely minimal. Minimal, minimal.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I am coming from the perspective of someone who adores that game. And I love Abby as a character in her story. And so the idea that we are what almost feels like, if you change it too much, if you soften it too much, soften the blow of who Abby is and the reveal of what she's up to. Are you pulling the punch right? Like, are you doing exactly what Ellie does not want to happen for us as an audience? I worry about that. But I do have incredible faith in overall the production team of this show and the writing team of this show. I also have incredible belief, as we've alluded to in Caitlyn Deaver, to sort of change this version of the story. And there are many ways in which she is not a physical representation of the Abbey in the game, but is an emotional stand in in a totally different way and I think capable of a range of performance and a different kind of rage. That is going to be really fascinating to watch once she really gets uncorked. Like, our girl knows how to play pain. Like she just does. Like, I don't. I don't love that for her in terms of the roles she gets thrust into. And God knows she can be an amazing comedic actress too. But seeing this version of Abby is going to be one of the great curiosities and joys for me of the season, even though I have my apprehensions about the way she was introduced.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so we'll all cry together and then we'll go watch Booksmart as the palate cleanse, please. And we'll go about our day. Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson. This has been an episode of the Prestige TV podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure has.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did we make a case for our own existence? Who's to say? We'll be back. We have plans to talk about your friends and neighbors, the Jon Hamm Apple Show. I know. We're also at least gonna like, at least brush up against Poker face. We must a show that's for time's.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sake, if nothing else.

[Joanna Robinson]

Started our our podcasting partnership in many ways, so there's a lot going on. I hope people stay tuned to the Prestige feed. Thank you to Justin Sales, as always for organizing everything for us. To Donnie Beachum and maybe more importantly his sidekick, Peter Bread Beecham, who we met today, who's helping edit this podcast, I'm sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

And not employee of the month, but a good girl nonetheless.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, maybe our employee.

[Rob Mahoney]

Employee. Who's to say? Yeah, the photo's not up on the wall yet, but that can be fixed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, you want to hit them one more time with the emails?

[Rob Mahoney]

I absolutely do. You can always get [e-mail] youm can also email us specifically your last of us question concerns. I don't know. What else do we want to solicit from people? Joe, what else are we in the market for?

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a great question. I mean, nomenclature is a big one if there's any expertise. Plumbers on the pipe situation. I just love to hear from the experts when we do these shows.

[Rob Mahoney]

Fungus in your pipes not what you want, but please do email us at this is your brain on shrooms gmail.com.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'Ll see you soon. Bye.