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This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. One season that always deserves a satisfying ending tax season.
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This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi fi, phone, TV, mobile services plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business, so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.
- [01:17]
A
Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
- [01:20]
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I am Rob Mahoney.
- [01:21]
A
It is 6 6pm it is episode 12 of the Pit. Princess has seemingly left the building. It would appear Mateo has arrived, the night shift has begun, and most importantly, Rob, clinical pharmacist Megan Nord finally got her close up.
- [01:44]
B
They let her into the foreground.
- [01:46]
A
It was incredible. It was incredible stuff. This episode was written by Danny Hogan and R. Scott Gemmel and directed by Amanda Marsalis, who also directed the 12th episode of season one. Also the 6pm hour, of course, for which she was Emmy nominated. That was the episode that was like the immediate aftermath of the Pit Fest shooting. She was Emmy nominated. I mean, I actually think andor should have won, but I kind of think she should have won. Slow Horse is one. And we were all a little confused. But anyway, she was so.
- [02:17]
B
Yeah, but the direction of which is not necessarily the reason we love it
- [02:20]
A
on an episode by episode basis. I wouldn't, I wouldn't pull it out of a lineup. But she directed an incredible episode of season one. She directed four episodes. She directed an incredible episode 12 of season one. They brought her back for this episode and I think, like I thought this was an incredible episode of the Pit. I think she, I mean, it was written very well, acted very well, but I just wanted to shout out this particular Pit director who is sort of like, this is another episode 12 banger
- [02:45]
B
from Amanda Marsalis and yet another episode in that tradition where there's just so much happening, there's so much to juggle, there's so many plot lines, there's so much to make sense of in space and in Time and between characters. And, like, the clarity of this issue is not an issue, is not a problem whatsoever. Everything is bad, though, to borrow from Santos, everything is going tits up at the moment. So, you know, we've had better moments for our characters, but maybe not a better moment of the season.
- [03:10]
A
I agree. Okay, so a quick mailbag before we get into. Because we have so much to cover today, they did a couple events over in the UK because the Pit is sort of, I think, hitting Sky TV or something in the uk. So Noah Wiley was out there on the. On the. The. The UK media circuit. He did an event with Casey Bloys where he talked about, quote, one of the gratifying things about season two is that we realized we don't need a big deus ex machina plot device to keep this engaging. End quote. So, like, the cyber attack aside, I guess there isn't something like anything major still looming. You know, we're just gonna wind out the day the way they are, and there's plenty going on, but there. There isn't gonna be, like, some mass casualty event again. In season two, we had the water. Water park incident, but that ended up being just a couple people. And we have this cyber attack, but there isn't, like, something massive just like season one, looming that way. And then in terms of season three, Casey Blois is like, hey, Noah Wylie, what's going on with season three? When are you getting started on that? Or when is that coming? And this is the quote from Noah Wylie about season three. He said, very soon, boss. We are in the process of writing character arcs for season three for everybody. It's very interesting show to break because unlike a lot of shows where there are 22 episodes that may play out over a calendar year, this is 15 hours of one day. So you're painting with a much finer brush for a character's arc. It's not really enough to go through the Courtship of Romance, but it's enough to get your head turned. These are really small arcs that happen in the course of a day, and that can be really satisfying if you're engaged with that character. And then there's one last quote from the UK media that I want to share. Then I want to get your take on all of this. Noah Wiley said, talking to BBC Front Row, which is either a podcast or a radio show on BBC, he said, the thesis of season one is, quote, the doctor is the patient. The thesis of season two is, quote, doctors don't make very good patients. And now we're back to work. Writing season three and the thesis will be, quote, doctors benefit from being patience. So in terms of, like, thinking about how they shape season two, looking ahead to season three, anything that these quotes sort of bring to mind for you, Robin?
- [05:13]
B
Oh, my gosh. I mean, there's a lot there, I would say first. Yeah, the idea that season one was so clearly structured around and interested in these, like, big externalities, right? Like the. The mass casualty event versus this one has been so much more about what is internally pulling these doctors apart. Like, where are they getting lost in the shuffle? Where are they falling between the cracks? What are the things that are residual that they're dealing with that are pulling each other apart? That's been like, right there all season. And I think you see it, I mean, really hard in this episode with McKay's conversation with Langdon about, like, have I been here so long that I basically cannot function as an emotional human being anymore? Many doctors are asking, and apparently maybe many doctors will be improving in that particular aspect of their lives in season three, but they're certainly not doing very well with it now.
- [06:00]
A
Joe, the notes were so hard to put together today because there was just so much going on. But no matter how I laid it out, we're going to come back again and again to this characterization of Robbie because it's being sort of attacked from so many angles inside of this episode and so many people have some interesting things to say about it.
- [06:18]
B
Has any major character not had some conversation or moment with Robbie where they're like, are you. Do you have a death wish?
- [06:25]
A
You okay, dude? By the way, drsaibangs@gmail.com or prestige tvpotify.com Rob and I had a conversation about the emails that were coming in for the Pit. And I was like, we're not getting very many. And Rob's like, we're actually getting a shit ton. And I realized a lot of them are being sent to my spam folder, so I fixed that. I have read literally hundreds of emails since Rob and I had that conversation, so I'm catching up. But if you're like, hey, man, why aren't you. Why isn't Joyner reading my emails now? I am.
- [06:52]
B
What were your flags for spam, do you think? Obviously, anything that contained the word furry was going to spam anything that came to Maggots Mohabbit, like, any. Any of the fandom ship names straight to your spam folder. So unfortunately, that was a lot of it.
- [07:05]
A
Spam. The thing about how AI is bad. Have you. Have you. Have you noticed? I'VE heard the thing about this filter is that it was filtering all the emails I wanted into the spam and then I was getting nothing but spam spam in the regular folder. So great job. Anyway, we got a ton of emails from, from listeners pointing out something that we neglected to note, which is that when Dr. Langdon was. Was rushing the kid with heat stroke into the hospital and he sort of put him down on the gurney, he looked like he has sort of fucked up his back again. And as someone who has injured her back, I, like, I, I know that moment. We know that that is why Langdon started his abuse of drugs in the first place. Or his stated reason was because he messed up his back. While this is a re injury. So some people are saying like, hey, man, is this going to be a tough moment for Langdon confronting all of the criticism that he's getting around him? Dr. Al Hashimi is now on his ass and he has re injured his back.
- [08:03]
B
So, yeah, I'm happy slash unhappy to join you, Joe, in the back pain support group. You know, this is an affliction that a lot of many people are dealing with, I have to say, brilliantly acted by Patrick Ball in terms of the. Like, I am looking into the face of a ghost because my life is now about to change for the foreseeable future because of this back pain. Extremely relatable when you fucked up your
- [08:26]
A
back and then it, it's been fine for a long time. And you're like, I've changed my life in such a way that this will never afflict me again. And then it happens again. And you're like, no, you're like, I thought I was done, man. Anyway.
- [08:36]
B
And if you're too young for this, if you're listening to this and you're in your 20s, I'm here to tell you the first time you fuck up your back is a before and after moment for the rest of your life.
- [08:45]
A
It's a, it's a, it's a staring, mortality in the face sort of moment.
- [08:48]
B
Okay.
- [08:49]
A
Anyway, our listener Shreya wrote in to note that Patrick Ball has said in a lot of interviews that Langdon is, is going through someone in early recovery. And this is what Shreya wrote. I think Langdon's behavior in this interaction with Santos, and we got a lot of emails about the Langdon Santos conversation really illustrate where he's at in the recovery journey. He's owning up to six of the harms that resulted from his addiction, but he still needs validation from others about having put in the work. I think Patrick Ball's performance is so excellent in illustrating all the complexity of Landy Langdon's recovery. So, like, it's sort of, you know, you and I have been going back and forth on this, and I think both things can be true where you're like, langdon is doing this incorrectly. And I was like, langdon's really trying. And both things are true. Like, he's not. He's not doing it perfectly by any stretch. And also, he is genuinely, earnestly, I think, trying. And so the Pit, in its depiction of Dana and Robbie inside of this episode and certainly in Langdon all season, is very interested in these complex characters. The Santos Langdon thing has been so interesting to watch inside of the fandom, where it's just sort of like, people are so divided on this, and that's just like a really well executed conflict where you could make a credible case for both sides. And I think where we landed was just sort of like both sidesing it to a certain degree. We're like, we see her points. We. We see the way that he is failing to do this, you know, the right way. And that's great drama. That's great writing, I think, completely.
- [10:13]
B
And as far as the Langdon part of it, yeah, I am, like, fully sold on this perspective of he is doing things imperfectly. He is earnestly trying. Like, he does hit you as a character who just really wants his life back and may not be fully ready to engage with everything it would take to get there, frankly. But like, he. He is trying to do right by a lot of people, himself included. We see him within this episode looking out, checking in with a lot of different people within the pit. Co workers, patients. Like, he is a good doctor in a lot of ways and a good coworker in a lot of ways, but the ways in which he's been a bad one are pretty catastrophic. And so that balance, I mean, I. I love the drama of that.
- [10:53]
A
McKay's like, no, don't hug me. Thank you so much.
- [10:56]
B
That was the. That was the catastrophe I was talking about. But I like that he offered the attempted hug.
- [11:00]
A
Right. I like that he offered. And then he was like, okay, nevermind. You know, Sure.
- [11:04]
B
I think my favorite was actually the way he kind of gently supports the teenager who had to drive super fast to get his dad into the er. It's like, even as his dad is like, kind of making a joke of it, kind of like having this moment with his son, but it's like, no, you did the right thing, speeding through every light to get here. You saved your dad.
- [11:23]
A
Oh, that's some. That's some real West Wing coded language from you, Rob Mahoney. I would even stop for red lights, man.
- [11:29]
B
It seeps out in every possible way of my life.
- [11:32]
A
Rob, how did you feel about the news that broke this week that Mary McCormick's gonna be on the Pit this season?
- [11:36]
B
Joe, this is news to me. What is happening?
- [11:39]
A
They're framing it as an ER reunion. Cause she was on the ER with Noah Wiley, but she's playing a surgeon of some kind. So, you know, there's only a few episodes left, but Mary McCormick will show up as some kind of surgeon on the show.
- [11:50]
B
Will there be a scene in which she's allowed into the Situation Room?
- [11:54]
A
These are questions you and all of the other Sorkin heads, or the West Wing heads, rather, because she wasn't part of the. She came after Sorkin left.
- [12:01]
B
Yeah. Post Sorkin John Wells era.
- [12:03]
A
Yeah. Last but not least, our listener Adam wrote in with this. Basically, one of the actors who played ICE Agent Russo did like, basically an AMA on the. On the Pit subreddit. And to, as one does and to confirm something that you had guessed, which is that given that one of the other agent, not Agent Russo, but the other agent had been masked the whole time, that there was a real opportunity for adr. And so this is. This is from that. That ama, this actor said, I'm the unmasked agent and only one of my lines was adr. I assume you're talking about. Oh, Russo's the other one. Sorry, you're talking about Russo. Most of his lines were live, but the main one people bring up is the quote, you got it doc, which was adr. So that was like, you really bumped on that sort of you got it doc moment from this Ice Agen. So this idea that it was adr, and perhaps that is part of the sort of like, again, we've been told both sides ing it approach that they were going to take to this. They were like, instead of saying something shitty, he's like, you got it, dude. And then went and again manhandled, you know, an injured woman. But yeah. Anything you want to say about that or any further thoughts about the ICE storyline?
- [13:14]
B
Yeah, like, I want to be clear. I think there's lots of reasons you could go back and ADR that line and change it and adjust the framing of that story. I hope that it's not like there is just a note from Corporate that says you have to tone this down. And they toned it down and this is what we ended up with. But dumber Things have happened in the history of television, and that would, unfortunately, that would kind of fit the bill of what happens with a lot of these shows.
- [13:35]
A
All right, let's talk about who left first. So I'm going to say technically, Jesse left first. Oh, hospital attorney says. The hospital attorney says don't, like, basically don't bother to look for Jesse. He's an ICE detention and they won't find him. So I do not believe we will be seeing Nurse Jesse for the rest of the season. He is.
- [13:51]
B
No chance.
- [13:52]
A
Ned Brower, I hope you got paid very well for this season. Then. I'm gonna give it to Princess, right. She left for some lechon, Some. Some roasted pig. Sounds so delicious.
- [14:06]
B
This is basically my dream, Joe, is to eventually have the kind of space where I can have a proper, like, lechon style roast in my own backyard someday. We dream this. We dream big, and we apparently dream big of roasted pig.
- [14:20]
A
Uh, one time I have roasted a pig, but it was in our oven at home.
- [14:25]
B
Whoa.
- [14:26]
A
If you get like a. A, like. Sorry for. If you're a vegetarian. Skip ahead. If you get like a suckling pig, you can and you sort of. Anyway, we did make it work. It was for a friend's birthday and we did like, a sort of like, luau theme, and we roasted a pig in the oven. And then we.
- [14:42]
B
I mean, it does sound delightful.
- [14:43]
A
And then we finished it with, like, a torch to, like, really get that sort of, like, crackling skin effect. It was very delicious. Our listener Matt wrote in to also let us know that Kristen Villanueva, who plays Princess, was pregnant around the time of shooting this and. And was still pregnant by January 8 when they did the premiere. They finished shooting on January 20. I will say, like, once I read that email inside of this episode, I noted that she is, like, standing behind the counter sort of like when she says this. And I kind of want to. There's a part of me wants to go back and watch the season and see how many times she's got, like, a club holder, a folder in front of her or something like that. But sort of if they were like, we don't want to do a whole Princess is pregnant storyline, so let's just like, Princess is going to leave and enjoy a delicious barbecue.
- [15:27]
B
Do you think that's the whole reason that Princess was into the hot radiologist is like, we got to hide her behind the wet reed machine a lot, so let's just have her kind of in his general orbit.
- [15:35]
A
Or if she's just like, leaves to go to Radiology. So, like, that actress can be off her feet or something like that. Anyway, Ogilvie is scrubbed in on the kidney stone case. I don't think that's the last we'll see of Ogely over. But we don't get any of him in this episode. So he's gone the whole hour. And then our work, life, balance, queen Joy.
- [15:54]
B
Oh, my God, aspirational joy, she's gone.
- [15:57]
A
Langdon's like, hey, man, the culture here is we stay around. And she's like, hey, man, the culture here is that you all have mental health problems, and I don't want that, so I'm gonna leave. 62% of ED docs suffer from burnout. She says, also. But before she goes, I mean, we'll get to the sort of the scalp stapling case that she's a part of. But before she goes, she does get this great moment with Whitaker where he's, like, being snarky about med students. She's like, oh, my God, can I take a selfie? You're famous for having lived in the hospital, and it's so funny, and I love her so much. And I will be really bummed if this is the last we ever see of Joy, but it could be, but I'd be bummed about it.
- [16:35]
B
I certainly hope she returns, but, yeah, the devilish smile she hits after the selfie with Whitaker. I mean, just a stuff. But look, you know, you and I, Joe, we have very normal, healthy relationships with work. Didn't even know this was a possibility that you could just leave on time, clock out when you're supposed to do the thing that everyone tells you you can't do, but you can actually do. Who knew?
- [16:56]
A
Yeah, there's no clocking out. There's no clocking out of content in our dumb job. But this. So, like, a thing my friend always says is, like, you can't pour from an empty vessel. And that, you know, that is, like, true in terms of, like, we'll get. We'll come back to that again and again in terms of, like, Robbie and what he's going through and Dana and what she's going through. Let's. Let's. Let's go to code. Hula Hoop and his fallout. Like, Emma's under attack. Dana immediately to the rescue. And then Robbie, after checking in on Donnie and baby Jane Doe also just, like, sprints down the hallway and very, we should say tenderly, sort of like checks in on Emma to see how she's doing, sort of like physically assessing her and stuff like that. How did you know, like, this is an immediate sort of follow up to the cliffhanger from last week's episode? How did this pan out? What did you think of this?
- [17:46]
B
I think there's a lot here I really like. In part just the way we didn't want Emma to get attacked, but the way that her kind of arc over the course of this season has solidified and manifested and taken shape. Getting her to the point where she's been through this incredibly stressful day, really difficult, first day on the job, gets attacked, put in the chokehold, is like dazed, but also resolved in a way that is very pit coded to me. You know, like, is this self sacrifice in the line of duty? Yes. Am I emboldened? And do I feel a certain pride for our girl Emma, like, not being a quitter and wanting to see her. Her shift through on principle? I kind of do. It is a little bit of both. But, like, I. I'm very interested in this character who the first couple episodes we bumped against over and over as just being like her whole role in the show initially was being naive, being the babe in the woods. And to get her to this point where she has seen a lot and she wants to stick around, I think is just like a very meaningful jump for this character.
- [18:47]
A
In the Dana Robbie episode, long sort of conflict that they have, one of the lines she says that I think is like her truest attack on him is, do as I say, not as I do, right? And. And we've called out Robbie's like, hypocrisy again and again. But Dana telling Emma that she needs to like, get a full workup and report to the cops and all this sort of stuff like that. When you compare that with how Dana, you know, went back to work, said, I'm fine, don't worry about me, and then like, did not press charges on Doug Driscoll, like, all of that sort of stuff. It's again, a very like, do as I say, not as I do. Like, I have been damaged by this place, but that doesn't mean the people coming up behind me need to be damaged by this place is how these, these, the mother and father of this family sort of behave. So I thought that was interesting.
- [19:37]
B
For some reason, the Dana one read a little differently to me in that way. Like, the Dana part does read as regret. It's like, it's almost like, I wish I had done this. And you're like, I'm going to support you as you talk to the police. With Robbie, you never really know. And it's just like the emotional fallout is coming in all directions at all times. It's really hard to, like, locate exactly where it's coming from. But with Dana, like, she so clearly has taken Emma under her wing, not just professionally, but has been, like, looking after her all day. And as far as, like, a button on a character relationship goes, Emma thanking Dana for kind of looking after her after following her around and seeing the way she takes care of patients, I mean, I just found it to be like a really sweet, really tender moment within this episode that otherwise is quite chaotic.
- [20:22]
A
And I think also that sort of, like, you need to report after the whole plotline that they shared over the sexual assault case and, like, the. The long patient conversation that they had with that young woman about, like, reporting, you know, like, it's. It's a different kind of assault, but it is. It is of the same piece of just sort of like, something has happened to you.
- [20:44]
B
Yeah.
- [20:45]
A
And let's talk about it. The Gulf Douche himself, there's many things he did that I'm upset with him about, but for some reason, like, viciously throwing the pamphlets at McKay was just sort of like, Jesus Christ. Anyway, I did. When he was talking when she's okay. I did not know this about the combination of alcohol and cocaine and that it can sort of, like, produce a metabolite that can cause psychosis and all that sort of stuff like that. Interesting to know.
- [21:09]
B
Yes.
- [21:10]
A
I also did not know, and actually, I don't think the world knew about the term Bertie bub, because I did. He was like, we were just doing some Bertie bumps. Don't worry about it. I did Google this, like, right after, just to see before the episode hit, if this is something that is, like, urban dictionaries aware of it or, like, you know, DoubleDictionary.com has it or something like that, but I couldn't really find it anywhere. Birdie juice or birdie bottle is a thing, and that is just like a flask. You carry that. If someone. Someone makes a birdie take a shot from the flask or something like that, that's a thing. So, like, just take that, but make it cocaine. Sure. If you were to come up with, like, a terminology for taking a bump of a cocaine during a tennis game, do you have a term that you could. Because I do think birdie bump is fairly catchy. I wouldn't recommend doing cocaine during any sport, though. I suppose if it's gonna be something, it should be golf, because it's a very sedate sort of, you're walking around. You're not like, getting your heart rate up necessarily while you're golfing. So, like, maybe some cocaine would be fine, but, like, I would not like bump and pump. I would not like weightlift and do cocaine at the same time. That's not something I would do.
- [22:16]
B
Well, first of all, I think this is why I wouldn't do it in golf is like, because it is such like a. You need to very calmly focus on this very particular biomechanical task. Like, that is not conducive to taking cocaine in literally any way. So I can understand why his golf bro was saying it was not a performance enhancing drug in this particular instance. Yeah, tennis would not recommend it. I'm trying to think if there's a cutesy name we could really adopt here. I mean, I'm gonna have to think on it. Maybe this is something our listeners can help us with. Your sport of choice, whatever it may be. Is there a cocaine terminology that you. What is the Bernie bump of your choice in general, though? Joe? I'm always a little. Maybe this is more revealing of me than anything about the situation. I don't understand people who just mix recreational drug use with casual sports in general. The number of people I have played basketball with over the years who are just, like, stoned out of their mind. I'm like, guys, I'm trying to have peak reaction time. I don't know what you're doing out here, but we're supposed to be on a team. Come on, like, pick it up.
- [23:17]
A
All right. If you think Rob is exhibiting narc energy, you can email us doctor sidebags@gmail.com.
- [23:25]
B
it's a fair accusation.
- [23:26]
A
D O C T O R Anything else you want to say about the Gulf Douche before we move on?
- [23:31]
B
I think ultimately, like, he might be supplanting campus security guard guy in the this guy sucks power rankings of the season. Hard to beat putting a nurse in a chokehold.
- [23:43]
A
What about ICE agents, Rob? What do you think?
- [23:45]
B
I mean, look, they're all okay. They're number. Numbers one and two. Number one, the institution of ice. Number two, the agents who then work for ice. Number three, this fucking guy. And number four, campus security guard. I think. I think that's a fairly comprehensive list for who we've had this season.
- [24:01]
A
Number five, Maggots. I think it's a great list.
- [24:03]
C
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- [25:35]
B
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- [26:43]
A
Dana versus Robbie. This is a very, like, Kathleen Lanasa wants another Emmy sort of performance episode. Between the, like, fuck, fuck reaction in the bathroom, the, like, not being able to hold back her tears in the public hallway while, like, Robbie looks on but does not say anything to her, and then their blowout in the ambulance bay. A conversation that we're just like. She keeps trying to be like, what conversation? What are we doing? Like, what are you talking about? This idea that she's had a loaded syringe in her pocket all day, ready for danger. The fact that we've been talking all season about this potential of PTSD for her and how that might manifest. I thought this was really well executed. A pal of mine, Roxana Hadidi, who works for Vulture, wrote a great piece of called we need to Talk about Robbie, sort of about the characterization of Robbie this season. And this is. This is this. You know, this she wrote before. This is in response to episode 11, so not in response to episode 12. But she says, this is one point she made that I thought was interesting. She says, in layering on Robbie's aggression without the checks and balances of other people, other characters, responses to it, the Pit is in danger of making his point of view its point of view. The Pit is set up to work as an ensemble show, a strong group of actors, varied characters with distinct experiences, a steady stream of patience, and cases that allow new dynamics to emerge. But spending so much time on Robbie this season has kept it from becoming one more people than just Dana could be, standing up to Robbie and showcasing performances beyond the show's two Emmy winners. So, like, you know, she's like, it shouldn't just be Dana calling Robbie out or. Or Abbott in a sort of, like, lighter sense. As we've said it again and again and again, we do not mind if characters on the Pit are wrong. Like, are incorrect, are their worldview is fucked up in some way, Sometimes right, sometimes wrong. That's a great balance inside of a human. Something that we have been asking ourselves all season though, is like, does the show agree with Robbie in his assessments of, like, Dr. Al Hashimi or Dr. Langdon or whatever the case may be? I do think that Roxanna is right in saying that Dana should not be the only character sort of like pushing back on Robbie. But Dana's push back in this episode in particular, is so piercing and so pointed that I do think this interaction, this call out, did a lot of work inside of that dynamic that we've been interrogating all season. What do you think?
- [29:17]
B
Yeah, I think there's. I mean, there's a lot to unpack here. First of all, we're talking about kind of two different fundamental framings. What is the way to write a TV show and what is most representative of a workplace. And in an actual workplace, most of the people working with Robbie probably would not feel like they are in a position to check him.
- [29:33]
A
Absolutely.
- [29:34]
B
Dana has the history, she has the personal relationship. She also knows kind of exactly what buttons to push that will reach him. I mean, can you imagine if, like, three episodes ago, Javati had tried to check Robbie in some way? Like, he would brush it off in the way he's been brushing off everyone. And I think the other characters are taking their moments to be like, hey, I know people who walk close to the line just to see if they get burned. And we see you doing that in real time, like, as gently as possible around the human time bomb. They are trying to warn him about what's happening. Getting Dana in this capacity, though, I'm sensitive to that idea of, like, the gravitational pull of the show being so heavily around Robbie, and what does that open up for the other performers on the show? When do they get their moments? What are their plot lines? You know, I think most of these other characters in the ensemble get their episodes, get their arcs, but it is such a Robbie show. And so long as that's the case, Dana is going to be one of the voices that makes the most sense to get to him. But it doesn't have to be that way. You know, you could rebalance to make it more focused on, you know, McKay in season three, if that's what you really wanted, or more focused on Abbott or Mohan or whoever. There's lots of ways in which you can actually structure this thing, but I think the show is unusually centered around Robbie, or maybe usually, depending on. Just like your general TV point of view. I don't think the show agrees with everything he has to say, though. I think that's where I would push back the most.
- [30:56]
A
I agree. And I think. I think. I don't think Roxanna was saying that, but I think she's like, there is a danger of a reading of the show that way. Do you know what I mean? And I think it sort of depends on how you watch it. I do I mean, like, I do think that I have seen both in like the subreddit and our comments and our emails, plenty of people who watch the show and anytime we critique Robbie, they're defensive of him.
- [31:19]
B
Sure.
- [31:20]
A
And, you know, and so that, you know, that happens all the time. But I do think there are some people who watch the show thinking of Robbie as a leader, which he is, and then therefore his takes are the right takes. And I, I don't think that's what the show is presenting, but I do think it's interesting. Our listener Aaron, who is a physician, wrote in with this interesting idea about quote on what's called moral injury, which is not a phrase that I had heard before, but looked up. Aaron was talking about how this is increasingly a concern inside of healthcare workers and particularly post pandemic. A moral injury is often something used to relate to veterans, people who have been through wartime. And this idea of something that you have had to do in the line of your job that betrays, undercuts, something a core moral value that you have held. And so for, for physicians inside of a system where, you know, health, health insurance lets you down, you have to make, compromise your beliefs. And we've seen the doctors in the pit have to do this over and over again in order to do your job. We heard Robby say to Santos, like when, when Santos was concerned about the brother and sister with the deported parents who might have to be separated, and Robbie was just sort of like, bad things happen inside of systems, you know, so Robbie has had to compromise morally again and again. When I shows up, he has to just be like, we got to put our heads down and do what we have to do to get these guys out of here. You know, so there are ways in which over time and, and so I thought it was really interesting this, like it's called lasting emotional, psychological, social behavior and spiritual impacts of actions that violate a service member's core moral values and behavioral expectations of self or others. And looking on the Department of Veteran affairs website where they were talking about specifically healthcare workers inside of this, this issue, that I thought this was really interesting in terms of the psychological profile of these characters. Right for self care inside of moral injury can be particularly challenging for people working in healthcare, given that those in this field typically strongly value caring for others and may prioritize the needs of others over their own. These characteristics are usually protective, but during highly stressful events, they can mean that a person may not have time to take care of themselves and that their personal standards put them at A higher risk for moral injury. Therefore, self care for moral injury should include seeking out others to assist in making difficult choices when possible and for support about circumstances that cause moral distress. It is often only in conversations with others that we can hear a different, more helpful way to think about or make meaning for morally distressing situations. And so I was thinking about that as we like, let's bleed into this Dr. Al Hashimi Rabi conversation where she's like, I think there should be two Attendings.
- [34:09]
B
Yes.
- [34:09]
A
Here in ED now, is she saying that because of her own questions about her own limitations and what else, whatever is going on with her medically, which is an ongoing question we have this season, or is she just speaking the truth? Like, everyone here is falling the apart because it's too much.
- [34:27]
B
Yeah.
- [34:28]
A
For the staff to handle. And Robbie is so affronted by this idea. Right. He gets, like, so high on his horse. He's like, r E D is the best ED in the world. And how dare you suggest that I'm doing the job of two people? And I just, like, really? I love that for him because, like, I don't agree with him at all, of course, but like, that he's like, what do you mean, help? What do you mean? Someone else? It has to be me. Only me. And this is what Dana's pushing back against, which she's like, it's this. Ed survived without Addison, survived without me. It'll survive without you. Like your idea, this is this mentally unwell story you have created, that it all has to be on you, is breaking you, is not functional, is not true. And so him being so threatened by Al Hashimi, even introducing the idea that there should be two attendings at the ed, I thought was incredible storytelling.
- [35:26]
B
It's a great setup.
- [35:28]
A
I mean.
- [35:28]
B
Yeah. Because not only does he have this just like, perpetual martyr complex about what he is supposed to mean to this ed, so many times in this episode, he is telling people, if I take my finger out of the dam, this whole place is going to go down. And at the same time, completely rejecting the idea, as you mentioned, Joe, that he needs any kind of help whatsoever. Which, look, there have been two attendings on the floor today, and it's been a shit show. It seems exceedingly reasonable to say that with this volume of patients in one of the most trafficked EDs in the country, having two attendings would be an incredible luxury if they're staffing to afford it.
- [36:01]
A
Not even like a luxury, like a necessity, honestly. So, like, I thought that was really interesting also. So in that inside of that conversation, Alhashimi gets this information that she didn't have that Langdon was selling drugs. I thought this phrasing from Robbie was really interesting. When he was talking about Santos, he says, Santos is responsible for revealing, Like, I was just, like, who's responsible inside of any of this situation. I just thought that was like, a really interest for him to put that
- [36:31]
B
he's all over the map. I mean, there is just, like, Dr. Robbie accountability. Watch Death Wish Watch. Like, he's so emotionally frazzled at this point and yet rejecting the idea that he is anywhere close to any kind of brink. I think the sum total of this, like, how he is performing emotionally within these episodes, how this character is kind of being represented in addition to the larger narrative stuff we've just been talking about about who Robbie is over the course of the season. I think Noah Wylie's been even better this season than he was last, in part because Robbie has been, frankly, like, so unlikable all throughout.
- [37:06]
A
We will come back to Robbie again and again, but let's. Let's take a. Let's veer over into a heat stroke mom and her and her kid. There is a. An interesting, like, frenzy among the fandom of, like, trying to figure out whether or not this mother is telling the truth. Like, you know, down to, like, the dirt underneath the fingernails of the kid and what does that mean? And all this sort of stuff like that. How much do you think the show is actively engaging in pushing back on that kind of theorizing inside of this episode? When we get both Dr. Alashimi saying to Langdon, like, let's not theor. Just because the dad went up to check on the kid before he checked on the mom. Let's not, like, jump to any conclusions. And then McKay and Alhashimi and Dana having, like, mom corner at the front desk, being like, do you think she's telling the truth? Does it matter? Is me being a mom making me more judgmental or more understanding? I don't know. This is just very much like a pushback on, like, did she do it? Is not the question this show wants to ask. Or is it? I don't know. What do you think?
- [38:09]
B
I think it is the question the show wants us to ask. Right? Like, they're not giving you all these breadcrumbs. They're not giving you the shot of the fingernails if they didn't want you to think about it. And some of that is to put yourself in the position of one of these. These medical professionals, right? About, like, if you're in that spot. Should you care about it? And those are almost two separate questions, because narratively, yeah, like, the show wants you to engage with those ideas to the point that even as she is being told that her son is recovering in the icu, that information relative to the idea that he was dead seems to bother her almost more in the performance. Like, she has a visceral, physical reaction to that. So it's like all of these little things that, if you interpret them just so, can lead you to one radically different conclusion or another. But I will say I'm feeling a little less bad about saying that this actress looks like she might be cast to play a mother who would intentionally harm her child, because that is the act of text that is ongoing about multiple episodes.
- [39:05]
A
You think that's the story that she.
- [39:06]
B
I don't even know if that's the case, but it's supposed to be believable enough that the people on the floor of the pit would think it.
- [39:12]
A
I'm really curious to see where that goes. Like, if the point at the end of the day is we've uncovered a crime or if the point is, as is often the case with a pit, you suspected this woman of doing something horrible, when, in fact, you know, she just took her eyes off her kid and, you know, is suffering the consequences
- [39:33]
B
of that, you know, but also, sometimes things are just horrible, and sometimes people are just terrible. And I think, again, there are just, like, enough little things. The. You know, the. The fingernails. Like, again, her son's fingernails being dirty where her hands appear, very clean. Maybe she's wearing gloves. You know, it's like, maybe there's a logical explanation. He's out playing in the yard and stuff. She's also rolling in. In, like. I mean, one, a dress, which may not be your first choice of gardening attire. Two, a very clean dress, which is just like. There's so many weird things about her story that just aren't adding up in a way that you understand why Langdon or McKay or anyone else would be like, do we believe this? And I think it is also fair to rebut. Does that matter?
- [40:11]
A
Okay, Doctor, Detective Mahoney is on the case.
- [40:14]
B
Rather, Detective Nancy Drew Mahoney. You know, we're trying to solve out here.
- [40:18]
A
I do think that some people prefer, like. Think it's very aesthetic to wear a flowery dress while gardening. I'm sure. But I know that I could not spend any time in the garden without being, like, smeared head to foot in soil. So you make some. You make some points all right, let's talk about Maga Monica and Victoria Javati. Okay, Giovanni, some highs and some lows for Javati inside of this episode. Actually, she's. She's on top the whole time as far as I'm concerned, because I really enjoy her Gen Z, like, okay, Boomer, reaction to Monica out in the ambulance bay. Victoria's waiting for her, like, video of Ice arresting Jesse to upload.
- [40:56]
B
She's getting that hamster wheel on the connection right now.
- [40:58]
A
Yeah. To. To her tik. I do love this. This is a really clever premise inside the show that, like, there's no reception inside of the Ed. I really love that because cell phones have ruined so many TV shows and so many movie premises. So the idea that, like, you can't get cell phone reception and, like, maybe you can get it in the ambulance bay, but is, like, a really good move. Monica, how. How did this. How did this moment shine through for you?
- [41:26]
B
I mean, I think you need to take a bow first, Joe. I mean, you could smell her InfoWars subscription from a mile away.
- [41:35]
A
She's in the snowflake is here. But maybe more importantly, I was stripping it purgatory to put myself through school when I was your age. Okay, Monica. All right.
- [41:45]
B
See, if she were truly into, like, the intergenerational war, she would understand that Gen Z and Gen Alpha would support her stripping to put her way through.
- [41:53]
A
They'd be like, yes, Queen, go for it.
- [41:54]
B
Absolutely.
- [41:55]
A
But I do really love that Victoria's like, okay, you know, she's not. She's like, we don't use that term. And okay, okay.
- [42:01]
B
Of all the things to like, of all the hills to die on, idiot savant is one of the dumbest possible hills.
- [42:08]
A
I have not heard anyone say that in a very, very, very long time. Okay, we did get a lot of. I don't need to read them, but we did get a lot of emails from people who work in the medical world who are like, I've met a lot of very conservative, very anti vax nurses. And it actually is sort of like very similar to this depiction of Ogilvy. Like, Monica and Ogilvy are perhaps more realistically representative of some of the personality types you meet inside of these various industries. And that, like Dana as a, like, tough talking, working class, but living out charge nurse is a fan is like a Hollywood fantasy. And I do think that's. But it's interesting to have like, these. These more reality chicks moments. All right, here comes Mateo. How excited were you when Mateo showed up when you saw the Back of the luscious curls bouncing into the ed.
- [43:01]
B
I would recognize them anywhere. I love that he gets the full on, like, dramatic over the shoulder. Following him into the ED reveal, I have three primary reactions to this whole situation. Number one, the beard is working. It's resplendent. A plus everything that's happening there. No notes. Let's. Let's keep it going. Number two, I am sorry to say Mateo does not know ball. He brings up the Dr. J bit, says that he, like, speaking of layups is his transition point, and then mime's a jump shot. And it's like you kind of can't do both, you know? Like, there's a crossing of terminology, of mechanics here that I. It just. It lays everything buried. It's like doing the German three, you know?
- [43:42]
A
Oh, I do know what you're talking about. One of my favorite scenes in all of cinema. Do people ever mime a layup? They don't really. Oh, for sure you do. They do.
- [43:52]
B
Yeah.
- [43:53]
A
How does one mime a layup?
- [43:55]
B
Well, not easily, but don't make the jump shot. Like, don't say the line if you're gonna. Then mime a jump shot.
- [44:01]
A
Okay, fair enough.
- [44:02]
B
Have it one way or the other. But the third, I think the most important night, when he tell. When he specifically says the line. The night shift baby to Giovanni. If you look very closely, you can see her brain short circuiting in real time for, like, an absolute blip of a moment. And I'm here for it. I love it.
- [44:19]
A
This is her reward for having navigated the bag of Monica moment with aplomb. And she gets a. She gets a Mateo interaction. So Mateo is here is very exciting. We did get an email from a listener saying, like, joanna, how dare you not update your hotness rankings after what we saw with Langdon running in with the heat stroke kid. And more important, Nurse Jesse getting arrested by ice. And I will say I agree. Langdon's has been. Already been on the list, so he's fine. Nurse Jesse, I'm bumping him all the way up to number two. Nothing's gonna unseat Dr. Abbott. I'll pay for it. Like, nothing's bumping that off the list. But Nurse Jesse gets arrested by ice. That's number two. And I'm. And I'm bumping him all the way up. And I feel very comfortable with that
- [44:59]
B
ranking, without a doubt.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah, but, Mateo, there's still time left in the day for you to move your way up the rankings. I believe in you, my guy.
- [45:06]
B
And I. I Hadn't put this together. But Giovanni, in our shift to the Pit Knights, the spinoff series, we're trying to get greenlit so desperately around here. I think she would be a welcome addition to that particular group. I mean, we've got Abbott, we've got Ellis, we've got John Shen, who's stumbling in, you know, Duncan in hand, as usual.
- [45:23]
A
Genuinely my favorite character. Like, genuinely, Dr. John Shen is my favorite character.
- [45:28]
B
We can't have enough John Shen on screen. So we need the Pit Knights. And if we add Javati now, we're getting a team together, you know, now. Now we've really got something cooking.
- [45:36]
A
In that case, Giovanni does not have to deal with her mom and her dad, because presumably they don't work nights. So it's not her mom walking down going, was this you? Like that doesn't happen on the night shift. So come to the dark side. As Mateo says. I would love that you and Kai and I did go see ready or not two to support our guy Sean Hadassey. Dr. Abbott himself at the cinema. Was it a great movie? No. Did we have a good time? Yeah.
- [46:00]
B
Are his line readings in that movie Diabolical Unhinged?
- [46:03]
A
Yes. Is his ascot game in that movie top tier? It is. He's surprisingly, like, he's a bigger part of that movie than I think people are probably expecting. I will say in the press tour for that movie, he has been going around, people have been asking about Night Shift, and he's like, sure, I'd do that.
- [46:20]
B
So done.
- [46:21]
A
Sure we'd watch that.
- [46:23]
B
Green lit the hell over here. Come on, let's get it going.
- [46:27]
A
I'm gonna come back to Dr. Robbie again because his storyline touches this next one that I want to talk about, which is Samira Mohan, Mel King, and this older couple that come in. And just to stave off any emails from people, I will note that the actor who plays the. The husband behind the wheel is Dan Florek, who played Captain Donald Craigen on Law Order from 1990 to 1993 and on Special Victims Unit from 1999, 2014. I don't watch any. Actually, that's not true. I was gonna say I don't watch any Law and Order. I did the d' Onofrio years of criminal Intent. So, like, I have watched them Law and Order, but I am not. I am unfamiliar with this guy's game, but I do know people were excited to see him here. So here he is. Law and Order staple. Okay, so this case we get, you know, Dr. King, Dr. Mohan, doing some great work with this elderly couple and their daughter navigating all of that. Mohan has some tricks and tips that she uses to navigate this. This is when Megan Nord comes in and is like, hey, maybe all these medications together are causing some issues. We're coming solutions to problems. We're doing a great job. This culminates in Robbie telling Dr. Mohan once again, in this day, another person this day to consider geriatrics. This starts off well.
- [47:40]
B
I actually think he's really trying for a second there.
- [47:44]
A
Have you considered geriatrics more of an art than a science. Great. She does seem to have a facility for it. Great. No doubt you have a predisposition to the pace. And the way he says it is so shitty. And the way her face falls is. I was just like, Robbie, you almost seemed supportive to tell you were actually nasty to someone who's doing great work here. I was very frustrated by this interaction.
- [48:14]
B
Incredibly frustrating to say the least. I do think it speaks to though, when you're in these sorts of environments, the way your brain sorts of get like. It almost gets like rewired to be judgmental of people who can't cut it. There's Right. It's this idea of like, I'm in this, I'm in this shit every day.
- [48:30]
A
I destroyed my life to be here. You're unwilling to do the same. So, yeah.
- [48:35]
B
And the people I value are the ones who are also destroying themselves and can somehow cope enough to show up to work the next day. And the fact that Mohan has shown any resistance and honestly not even that much to the idea, like she wants to continue working there. It seems like she. She's interested in this kind of medicine and frankly good at it like this because this case itself, say what you want about the pace of geriatric treatment like her. Her going the extra mile in the case that she did in season one. Her instincts are what lead her and Mel to the conclusion that maybe even though this guy is getting good siloed care from all of these specialists, he's not getting good comprehensive care because of the way that all these medicines may interact. So, like, she is good at this. It's just a little different than the way that Robbie wants it done.
- [49:20]
A
We got this interesting email from someone who has chosen to go by Dr. J talking about the. The subject line of this was, doc, toxic bosses, which I think is like a very good way to think about Robbie here. The whole quote, you're a golden child until you're not pseudo parental role where the boss is the one who has poor boundaries and shows what seems like favoritism. See Whitaker and Robbie and the if I treat you poorly, that's just tough love. But reality, it is childish. Freezing people out because they have dared to disappoint you after everything that you have done for them. See flying off the handle, being petty or using emotional punishment. See how Robbie let Dr. Sidebanks know Roxy was dead. Gossiping even when pretended not to. See Robbie's side comment about Dr. Al Hashimi early in the shift expressing, quote, concern. That is really nagging. See, intimating Mohan maybe just doesn't have what it takes. Then being somewhat exasperated or annoyed when she agreed because he was looking to cause emotional damage without being made to feel guilty. I think all of this assessment, when
- [50:20]
B
you put it like that, dead bang
- [50:21]
A
on per Robbie inside of this season. Yeah, it's really tough on the dialysis dad, Mason and Oliver Haas. I'm kind of using nicknames just to help our listeners, but I do write down character names. But anyway, dialysis dad and his son come in. This is chiefly framed here to show Dr. Al Hashimi turning on Langdon and essentially being quite short with him in a way that she hasn't been. But also, is she not sort of doing to him what he did to Santos, which is just sort of like, well, actuilling him again and again. And she's right as she does it. But he feels demoralized and undermined the way that she's particularly doing it after all of the warmth that she has offered him earlier in this day and then putting Robbie in the position where he has to decide whether to side with Langdon or Al Hashemi. And he's like, this is my worst nightmare. I really liked this.
- [51:22]
B
And when he backs up Alashimi, she like does a straight up double take, like, are you. What. What this can happen?
- [51:28]
A
Yeah, this. This case is also here to. We're. We're a little bit living out with a pit. Right. Because we are teaching everyone a lesson about rural hospitals and access to dialysis and all that.
- [51:39]
B
Medicare cuts and Medicare cuts. You know what, Kai? Let's just roll it.
- [51:42]
A
Let's just get that. I love it.
- [51:50]
B
It's beautiful.
- [51:51]
A
In terms of, like, people who can check Robbie. Another option here today is, is Duke. And Duke is here to do a couple things. One, to underline Robbie's hypocrisy about calling, you know, McKay out for going across the park to help Kiki last episode when he's just sort of like pouring all these resources into Duke, which you highlighted. He is not pushing Duke to the front of the CT line. He is pissed that Duke keeps getting bumping, bumped down the CT line. But. But all of that is true. Also, our listener Stephanie, in terms of like, Robbie's hypocrisy, Stephanie pointed out that last season she's. The way she put it, is Robbie pouring scarce blood into Leah. Last season, like, we are low on blood. We have doctors literally giving blood while treating other people. And Robbie, well past the point of saving Leah is. Is, you know, pumping a lot of blood into this young woman who unfortunately didn't make it. Again, that was framed as a this is a breaking point for Robbie moment. A bad decision for Robbie. But the fact that he then does not have, you know, space for other people when they bend and break rules is, you know, I guess, frustrating.
- [53:01]
B
Let's start there because I do think the bending and breaking of rules is happening across the board in a lot of different ways. Some of which are fine, some of which are maybe part of like the institutional process. Like, for example, Becca being ushered as a VIP patient. That seems to be like the way business is conducted here. And you may have a feeling about that. But like, I think there is a, like a tangible psychological benefit to having Mel not worried about her sister being five hours in the waiting room. Then there's things like McKay which is like she's going across the street to the park to treat Kiki on company time, bringing another student Docker with her. Are using hospital resources in a way that is like good human behavior. But is it the best management of a shift of medical professionals when they're already crunched? I think you could probably, like, reasonable people could disagree on that one.
- [53:48]
A
I do, I agree that reason people could disagree. I also think that it was like 15 minutes in a, In a long ass shift and that she's. She is like, there's no signs of her going home. So I just, like, I don't know. I. And again, a lot of our listeners and many people in general are sort of like, that's the point. Robbie sees his own behavior in these other people and it bothers him. But if there is a sort of like, larger physician, heal thyself arc for Robby, I would love for him to say, hey, Dr. McKay, I understand why you felt like you need to do this. Here are some of the risks that it poses for the hospital, but I understand why you did that. Not, your patient died while you were gone, you dumbass. You know, like, there's. There are different approaches.
- [54:30]
B
His reactions almost uniformly suck to almost everyone he's working with this season. So it's like, there's the question of, like, was a, like, hospital crime actually committed here? Is this that big of an infraction? And then there is. What is Robbie's response to that infraction? And they are disproportionate almost every time.
- [54:48]
A
Right. Anything you want to say about Duke inside of this episode? Nurse Livy, Big fan of her, excited to see her here. Anything else you want to say?
- [54:58]
B
I mean, he. He does pose the million dollar question to Robbie, which is, why are you so eager to get out of here? And it is. It is the other side of the martyrdom, which is Robbie. Even himself recognizes, like, if I don't get out this second, I'm never going to get out. Like, he needs a break. He needs relief from this life. He's also just, like. I mean, in the spirit of true detective, I just want him to stop saying odd shit. Just constantly around every corner insinuating that he may never return, suggesting that, like, oh, the hospital's going to. Oh, my apartment's gonna be in your hands. Oh, when I'm gone, you're gonna need to do X, Y, and Z. He just can't help himself. And Duke is, to your point, about, like, people who can check him, really the only person who's like, so, what's going on here? Like, why are you doing this in this particular way? And what is so important about tonight that you have to get out?
- [55:47]
A
Right. I love that. The idea of Robbie being the rusticle of
- [55:54]
B
talking about psychosphere. Yeah.
- [55:55]
A
But I. I do think, well, like, on the. On that note, we get this. A more fati exchange in the.
- [56:02]
B
This is what I'm talking about.
- [56:03]
A
Yeah, exactly. This is a Rust Cole moment. A lot of people were noting that in last Week's episode when Dr. Alashimi was asking Heatstroke, mom, like, sort of, have you ever thought about hurting yourself? The camera lingers on Robbie's face. We get a lot of those moments inside of this episode as well. After he leaves Duke, we just are on his face walking down the hallway, you know, and just sort of like. Like dealing with him, dealing with his emotions. And then inside of this, like, sort of firework explosion case where a guy busts his head. His head wide open. Joy gets to staple it back together imperfectly. Great stuff. We get this. Gunpowders in my blood and this camera lingering on Robbie. Amor Fati. He writes as, like, love of fate. And then Santos is like, memento Mori. I've seen 28 years later,
- [56:57]
B
as we all should, frankly.
- [56:59]
A
But amor fossi, right? An attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering, loss, as good or at the very least, necessary. I have a bit of World War I poetry that I would like to quote for you, but I want to hear what you think about this moment first before I inflict that on you.
- [57:16]
B
I do love the way that Robbie, every time he's confronted with some of these very direct conversations about the way he's talk, the way he's conducting himself, he just kind of like trails off and exits them without having any kind of resolution whatsoever. In a way that's just been like a consistent drum beat throughout the season. Like, he never really has an answer for why he's doing what he's doing. He just kind of walks away. I think that really works. And I also think in addition to, like, the gunpowder in my blood aspect of that, like, exchange, as that guy is sort of like whistling the effect of a firework. You get like this wince, this, like, physical wince from Robbie that he then does later when the phones are going off. And it' like, this man is a husk and he's. He is frayed in ways that he's clearly not equipped to deal with right now, but he is equipped to, you know, just like, pass off a little casual Latin here and there. Just try to pass on some wisdom, I guess, in the way that he does.
- [58:11]
A
I do think it's interesting if you. If you go back to that quote that I read at the top of the episode from Noah Wy about season three, this idea that, like, patient. That doctors benefit from being patients. If season three is the. The like post therapy season or the like, currently in therapy season, like, I'm excited for that because, like, I don't mind this, like, spin out Robbie season if it means we are getting a sort of like, on the mend Robbie season. But this idea, to your point, there was a combination of this sort of, like, amor fati plus that sort of whistling sound of the firework, which also sounds like a bomb being detonated. And I think combined with our listeners, our listener writing in about this idea of moral injury, which is again, something that, like, you think about a lot when you think about veterans of war. This poem, Dolce e decorum est by Wilfred Owens, which is one of my favorite poems, really.
- [59:07]
B
Jo, you can. You can only be yourself.
- [59:08]
A
I can only be myself. I love World War I poetry because it's like, war fucking sucks, actually in the most flowery terminology. Ever. But dolce decorum est pro patrio mori means like it is sweet and just and the right thing to do to die for your country. And this is the final stanza of that po of this poem that sounds to me so much like working in this particular, er. Rieslingess. If in some smothering dreams you two could pace behind the wagon that we flung him in and watch the white eyes writhing in his face, his hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin, if you could hear at every jolt the blood come gargling from the froth corrupted lungs, obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud of vile incurable sores on innocent tongues, my friend, you would not tell with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dolce et decorum est pro patri amori. So this, like talking about someone dying on a wagon is just sort of like blood gargling from their lips, frothing, eyes rolling. I'm like, this is the trauma of watching dialysis dad or heat stroke kid or all, you know, all of these people come into the ER and like, are on the brink of death or die. These are people who are go to war every single day and they are traumatized. But the part, the point of that poem, this idea of, like, dolce decorum as pro patria mori, this idea that Robbie has of, like, it is the right and just thing for me to do, to break my life in order to be here because I am saving and helping, helping people. And like, on the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, no, because you can't do, go on the way that you've been going and do the good work that you most want to do in helping people.
- [60:59]
B
And also, you aren't the only person who can do it right. And honestly, like, it's very understandable that for someone with Robby's level of skill and with his level of expertise that he would trick himself into thinking, because I am saving people's lives, because I'm pulling off these miracles in the room, that all of this depends on me. But it doesn't have to be him in the room, and he could pull himself out of the equation maybe not quite as seamlessly as Joy did, leaving, like, on the dot as soon as his shift ends. But, like, he has to get out enough to treat himself, to take care of himself. He's not willing to do it because, in part, he has fooled himself into thinking that it can't be anyone but me.
- [61:36]
A
Somewhat relatable, content, honestly, okay, with much Lower stakes. I do want to shout out on the, on the fireworks case. I would like to take this opportunity to shout out Garcia for the incredible requesting of a custom custom elk bone carved hunting blade. And then telling Robbie, you'll make a great ex husband one day. No notes. Great stuff. On that note, should we be worried about Santos? Okay, so we got a ton of emails about this and, and I was sort of like, like rolling my eyes a bit at all. These emails we got that were just sort of like, is Santos headed towards serious self harm? We've seen like the cutting scars on her, but she's. She headed towards something. You know, we're all on sort of like Robbie suicide watch. Should we have our eyes somewhere else? And that inside of this episode, she. She nicks a scalpel from like, you know, the suture cabinet or whatever. And so I was like, oh, are our concerned listeners correct? I don't know. But we have this moment. We have her interaction with Whitaker where she is like obviously quite upset that he is perhaps going to leave her. Going to house it. Giovanni eating this up with a spoon. Once again, reward for dealing with Maga Monica. She gets to witness this exchange. Whitaker's like, you like living with me? Just go ahead and say it, man. You love it.
- [62:54]
B
The physical transformation in Whittaker as he realizes he can lord something over her is a great and funny moment within. I have to say, just like one of the darkest episodes we've seen for Santos yet. Because of all this and the way
- [63:07]
A
it's building, we got this really interesting email, I thought, from a listener who wants to go by mh, about Santos taking cues from Robbie. They write Santos is taking all of her cues from Robbie and how to behave in the workplace. The refusal to work with Langdon, the sense of justice that goes beyond reasonable at times. The resistance to working with others, slash, being easily threatened. The disdain for Dr. Al Hashimi's changes, not to mention sleeping with someone you work with. I see this all, all the time across industries. Younger professionals taking cues from flawed older ones and ending up with habits and behaviors that hurt their careers. As a young person, you're drawn to mentors that quote, break the mold without realizing that you need to know all the rules before you can break them. And that breaking the mold has real costs and that privilege will play a role in how many rules you can break. I think we're watching Santos bump up against the limitations that come from acting like Robbie when you don't have his experience, relationships and privilege. And I, I think I I found that really fascinating. And so to watch Robbie directly coach Santos inside this episode and do once again a do as I say, not as I do, you have to learn how to work with Langdon and hey man, go see a fucking therapist. Right? All advice that he is unwilling to give to himself.
- [64:14]
B
He's really something else.
- [64:15]
A
But I thought that was really interesting to think about Santos as a young woman just starting out, trying to behave like this 50 something year old cowboy doctor. And it's just sort of like it's not right that he can get away with it and she can't. But like the whole system is not right. So. But I thought that was a fascinating read on Santos anyway. Are you worried about her? How do you feel about her?
- [64:38]
B
Terrified, I think in part. I agree with you about the emails which have been trickling in over the course of the season, kind of pointing a finger at this, that this could be a possibility. And I think it would be really smart TV storytelling to have all of the big loud blaring stuff be like, like Robbie motorcycles. Everyone's worried about him all the time. And then Santos is like off to the side and she, she's looked like she's about to collapse all day. She's been told that her like professional progression could be stunted by this whole Charting situation with Dr. Elishimi. She's. Langdon is lurking around every single corner. Her situationship is going sideways. Ramen is spilling everywhere, like everything. And even, even Whitaker, who clearly at this point is like one of the people she is closest with, might be moving out at a time where she really probably needs him more than any other. And it's like all this stuff is piling up and piling up and you can see this character kind of falling through the seams where she didn't get like the pep talk from Dana in the stairwell that Mel did. You know, she hasn't gotten the like, let me pull you aside and let's actually talk about what's happening that so many characters had the opportunity to do this season. She does get her speech here as far as like, what, what. Yeah, Langdon coming back has meant to her and the way it has kind of like reactivated some of these anxieties and some of those are real. Like the stuff about being gaslit on her first day, that's real. The stuff about everyone looking at her differently. I imagine a lot of that is imagined, a lot of that is kind of projected based off of she's feeling like a pariah and thus interpreted that
- [66:06]
A
she's a pariah and behaving in a way that maybe makes her feel even more distant from everyone else. I love completely. I love Whitaker. I mean, I really loved that ending for them last season. And I love Whitaker as this, like. Like, rare, safe space for her. Like, someone that she can tell these things to. And, like, even if, you know, there is this danger of him house sitting for Robbie. And also, like, he's calling Amy from the ambulance bay. Like, Amy's picking him up. He's not going home, you know, to Santos Farm. Benefits start as soon. As soon as the shift is over. So, you know, I. And I love her talking about him eating her avocados. Listen, if you eat my avocados, I don't want you in the house. I don't have a jingle for this, but I would just like to introduce a new recurring segment that I would like to call Pitting out with a Pit. And it is.
- [66:56]
B
Aren't we all. Isn't that everything?
- [66:57]
A
It's when the pit is like. And now in Pittsburgh history or Pittsburgh culture, so we get the Revolutionary War reenactors, right. And the fort and linked to being like, are you from Fort Pitt Museum? I love. You know, which is, like, I guess the Colonial Williamsburg of Pittsburgh or something like that.
- [67:14]
B
I want to say, it does come that Langton would be, like, a big Revolutionary War nerd.
- [67:18]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [67:19]
B
Just kind of fits.
- [67:20]
A
But, like, very pitting out with a pit. Like, you know, when they're like, hey, did you know that these guys invented ambulances? Or, like, hey, did you know this? I think it's. I think it's fun. I like it, but it's, like a funny recurring.
- [67:30]
B
It's a great show.
- [67:32]
A
I would also like to introduce you to my new favorite character, and it is sunburned lady in the red, white, and blue bikini.
- [67:38]
B
Thank God she is here because, like, again, this is a very intense, very chaotic episode. And sometimes as we're unraveling, like, all these medical mysteries of, like, oh, my God, what's happening with this woman who may have harmed her son? Oh, what's going on with this dialysis dad? Like, how do we get him basically back to life from, like, drooling pink goo coming into the ambulance day? Sometimes you just walk into a room. It's like, there's a lobster in a bikini. And it's just like, if this.
- [68:03]
A
She also sucks, but she also, like, walking behind. In one scene, she's just walking the bathroom, and I'm like, I. I think I'm more delighted by the prospect of this than the furry, even like the, like the opportunity for her to just sort of like be walking around, like sort of like tottering around in the background. And maybe it's just because I've experienced some like absolutely heinous sunburns in my life as an incredibly fair skinned person, but I was just like representation. It matters and here it is.
- [68:29]
B
So, you know, we don't know what it feels like to have your head flapping open to be stapled shut. Yeah, it seems horrible, but we don't know. We do know what this feels like. Maybe not full body to the extent that you have like the. The sunglasses, reverse tan, but this is tough.
- [68:44]
A
We're from the British Isles. We know what's going on here. Okay, last but not least, just a roundup. Dr. John Shen, as you mentioned, is here. I did like a literal hell yes fist bump on my couch when I saw that Digby is still here. So shout out to Charles Baker for getting paid all season to just be here. Love that. And here comes Orlando, Samira's patient from earlier in the season. He fell. She is. This is going to be really hard, really hard for her. Right? She blames herself already and this is gonna be really hard for her.
- [69:14]
B
It's almost worse when you try to do the right things and still come up short in the treatment of patients. Like she tried to warn him that some version of this could absolutely happen today and it couldn't keep him in the room. And I'm terrified to see how hard Mohan takes that.
- [69:31]
A
And is anyone gonna offer her grace for that? That or not. But the good news is the night shift is starting, so that means Dr. Jack Abbott should be here any moment.
- [69:38]
B
Please come back.
- [69:39]
A
If anyone has some grace for Dr. Mohan, it might be him. All right, anything else that we haven't mentioned in this incredibly jam packed episode?
- [69:46]
B
I have one, I think philosophical question for you, Joe, and it's based off of a line from Dana, which is Dana, as she is coming out of her on the verge of tears, emotional episode with Robbie, or one of the many in this episode, says, how can I help uncluster this clusterfuck? Do you uncluster a clusterfuck or do you unfuck a clusterfuck?
- [70:06]
A
You un fuck a cluster? I think.
- [70:08]
B
Right, that's kind of what I was thinking, but. But it led me down like an absolute spiral.
- [70:13]
A
Honestly though, let's say you have all these fucks are clustered together and if you uncluster them, then they become smaller, more disparate. Fucks that maybe you can handle one by one. Do you know what I mean?
- [70:22]
B
But I feel like the implication of fuck is that the clusters are creating a fuck of a situation.
- [70:28]
A
I think maybe there's an implied of a cluster of fuck that have now become a larger, like whatever the group name for a large amount of fucks is. And it's a clusterfuck, right?
- [70:38]
B
It apparently is a clusterfuck. I just, I just really went down the rabbit hole with this and I've come out on both sides simultaneously. So if you have a conclusive answer to whether you uncluster a clusterfuck or unfuck a clusterfuck, I would love to hear it. Dr. Sidebangsmail.com well, we have to hope
- [70:53]
A
that Ogilvy's patient makes it out of his surgery okay, because I think he has the answer for us. Thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thank you to Kai Grady. Thank you to the Pit. What a incredibly complex and fascinating show. And like NOAH Wylie and Dr. Robbie, like, this is like a really complicated psychological portrait of a person that I'm having a good time unpacking even as I like get pissed off and disagree with him. We will be back, of course, with the love story finale. We're wrapping it up and with a Pit episode 13. Only a couple more episodes to go. Rob Mahoney and then we're done.
- [71:25]
B
Somehow, somehow it feels like we've been doing this forever. But also I'm not ready for it.
- [71:28]
A
See you soon. Bye.
- [71:41]
B
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