B (2:37)

I've attempted to smuggle it into a.

D (2:39)

Couple episodes because it's a cherished show for you.

B (2:42)

Truly. My heart is full at the possibility of discussing the West Wing with you. Today, Joe, my heart is full. My cathedrals are, too. You know, like, I just think we have a lot going on. We're here to talk about the season two finale of the West Wing. It simply does not get bigger than this for this particular show, or frankly, for me personally, bigger than this. Basically, in the history of television, this.

D (3:04)

Is number 16 on a list of 100. Rob, how do you feel about that placement on the. On the list?

B (3:11)

Lukewarm. You know, I'm trying to quell the anger within, but this is part of the exercise. And ultimately, look, top 10 is mostly the heavy hitters, right? Some of the greatest shows ever made. I'm not quibbling with any of them in particular, but I think as far as individual episodes go, even West Wing doubters, even people who do not associate themselves as being fans of Aaron Sorkin, will reluctantly have their hearts pierced by.

D (3:37)

Two cathedrals, I gotta say. So I did a little, like, preview Instagram reel moment where I, like, put up screenshots of. Basically, I was watching the West Wing episode, and then I was watching the other episode we'll talk about. So if you're on my Instagram, you can see what that was. But I put up, I would say, a not very recognizable moment, necessarily from this episode. It's not.

B (3:58)

But if, you know, you know, Joe.

D (3:59)

It'S not one of the iconic moments. I have never gotten Rob, such a response to, like, a tease. We're going to talk about this. People lost their minds. I didn't know I had that many West Wing like fanatics in my following, but.

B (4:14)

Well, first of all, demographically speaking, a Joanna Robinson fan and a West Wing fan, they may have something in common.

D (4:20)

Might be one single circle, perhaps, but. Rob Mahoney, why is West Wing such a huge show for you?

B (4:27)

Oh, my God. I mean, to me, it's just like the ultimate workplace drama. And some of that is just. You're starting with one of the great ensembles that's ever been put together. I could just, like, go on and on for this whole episode about Richard Schiff, if that's what you want me to do, Joe.

D (4:40)

But sometimes.

B (4:41)

But in the spirit of Toby, I will not. And I'll simply, like, nod in affirmation. I think the show itself, in terms of the episodes, we always talk about the writing, we always talk about the dialogue and the walk and talk elements, they're just brilliantly constructed. I think you see that here in two cathedrals, but you really see it in almost every episode of the Sorkin era of the West Wing in Particular, it's just the structure, the way that everything is tying together. It is kind of a classic TV sensibility, but it's also very much a playwriting sensibility as well.

D (5:12)

This is the era of 22 episodes of television. This is completely wild that by the time you get to.

D (5:21)

The end of season two, you've already had nearly 50 episodes of this TV show, which is like the complete run for a lot of other shows. So that's a completely wild and different sort of world we're living in here. This is universally considered the best West Wing episode, like, without question, and one of the best episodes of television to ever exist.

B (5:41)

The only disputing point on that is this is not so much of a full senior staff episode. It is very much a President Bartlett episode. I could see some argument from fans who, like, just want a little more C.J. craig in their lives as the representative sample.

D (5:56)

Okay, so before I get to my first question, which was sort of like, is this episode typical? And you just kind of answered that. But we'll swing back to that. Will you set the stage for what's happening in the series at this point? And then sort of like, what are the broad strokes? What happens in this episode?

B (6:12)

Yeah, so the first two seasons, I mean, the bulk of the show is covering Jed Bartlett's presidential administrations. This run of, like, six episodes in particular, Joe, is really building up to close out the second season. All dealing with the fact that Jed Barlett has been diagnosed with Ms. And hiding it for eight years. And it's the slow roll of who is aware of that information and what are they going to do with it. And then ultimately, what we're working up to in this finale is like, what does that mean for a potential reelection bid? And as that all of that is happening, plus, like, a coup in Haiti and some legislative priorities and all normal, like, moving the chains of running a government. Shit is going on.

D (6:51)

Yeah.

B (6:52)

Mrs. Landing Ham, our beloved Mrs. Landing Ham, the President's longtime secretary and confidant, is killed tragically in a drunk driving accident. She is not the drunk driver. She is killed tragically by a drunk driver. And so we have this, like, natural structure in this episode, in particular of this ticking clock of a press conference. The President will announce something, whether he intends to run whatever he wants to say about having Ms. To the public. At this press conference, no one seems to know what he's going to say, including his own staff and certainly including us.

D (7:24)

Feels like Leo knows what he's going to say.

B (7:26)

He suspects.

D (7:27)

Right. It's Famous for a number of different reasons. It's got a flashback structure, which is not the only time on West Wing that you see a flashback structure. But I thought it was interesting that, like, this episode and the next episode we're going to talk about are both, like, quite timey wimey episodes and the way in which those things are cut together. Like, inside this episode, you'll have older Jed Bartlett, like, open a door, and then younger Jed Bartlett, like, walks through a different door. You know what I mean? Like, all of those match cuts are really smoothly done, but I thought it was really interesting to think about. This is an end of season two episode.

D (8:03)

One of my most cherished, like, beliefs in television is that TV shows are almost always at their best in season two and season three of those shows.

D (8:16)

And for example, in this episode, you mentioned this as somewhat anomalous because it's a Jed Bartlett episode. But something. The growing pains that the West Wing went through, which happens all the time on shows, is pivoting away from this being a Rob Lowe vehicle into this being a Martin Sheen vehicle. Like, Jed Bartlett becomes the anchor of this show in a way that they didn't expect. They thought it was going to be. Sam Seaborne was gonna be the main character to the point where, like, eventually Rob Lowe leaves the show. Cause he's like, guess what? I was supposed to be the star of the show.

B (8:51)

And I was not what I signed up for.

D (8:53)

But here in season two, you still have the main cast, minus Mandy is, like, still here. So that's usually what's happening in season two and three is like, we figured out what our show is.

B (9:04)

Yes.

D (9:05)

We know where all of our strengths are. And the original cast and the original creators are usually all still here. So it feels like the original show. We've gone past our growing pains. We've hit our stride, and we're really just cooking. And I was going through the list of top 100 episodes that our wonderful, incredibly talented colleagues picked up. And, like, there's a lot of season one episodes actually in the mix here. But a lot of those have to do with, like, limited series. Like, there's only one season. So. So that's the case. And then you see, like, a smattering of twos and threes and fours, mostly. That's. That's. That's what we're working with. So I don't know, like, do you disagree? What do you, like.

D (9:48)

When you hear something now? When you hear something has seven seasons, are you like, well, those last three seasons aren't Gonna be very good. Like. Like, what do you think about that?

B (9:57)

I would say when you hear something has seven seasons, the last seasons aren't gonna be the best, but they might have a couple of standout episodes. But to your point about the twos and the threes, that's where it's just banger after banger after banger. And it is that exact sweet spot where you're right, the main cast is still intact, and more than that, they're not disenchanted yet. There's nobody among them necessarily who's like, oh, my God, I can't wait to get out of this deal so I can go do movies based off my success from this show.

D (10:22)

That always works out really well.

B (10:23)

Honestly, Histor, I also think there's something about the writers room, too, where they've sort of, like, settled, and some people have usually left after the first season because they got obligated to. They were obligated to other jobs. And you've sort of figured out what the voice of the show is gonna be. Less of a case for the West Wing, where everything is sort of funneled through Aaron Sorkin's voice, whether you like it or not. But ultimately, most of these shows find their writing rhythm in season two and three, and they find which characters are working together in which combinations, what plot lines the audience is responding to. And you can sear into that stuff or away from it, depending on what you want to do, but you just have so much more, like, feedback going into 2 and 3 than you do out of the gate, and you don't have the exhaustion of going into a season five or six.

D (11:05)

Is season two your favorite season of West Wing?

B (11:08)

I think it probably is. I think there's just, like, There's a freshness to season one that I think a lot of people really respond to, myself included. But season two feels a little more polished. It has a lot more of my favorite episodes overall. I just think that the cast is in such a great rhythm at this stage. And if, you know, we're gonna talk a little later about, like, if not two cathedrals, what would you pick? And I think many of the compelling options also come from season two.

D (11:35)

You said this doesn't feel like a typical episode because this is so jed centric, and it's not as ensemble y as the show could be. But there are ways in which, you know, looking at the broader list that our colleagues put up, like, there are episodes on there that are just clear, like, anomalies. This feels less of that to me. I Mean, you could say the one where. The one with Mrs. Landingham's funeral, the one where Jed Bartlett rails against God at a cathedral. You know, like, there's easy logline identifiers, but it doesn't stand out the way that some other episodes on the list do in terms of, like, this is an exception to a show that was, like, pretty good, but then they did this absolutely insanely banger episode. And this, to me, even though it's incredibly good, and I understand why it is usually at the top of people's lists about West Wing episodes. It's just classic Sorkin also. And classic Martin Sheen as Jed Bartlett also. So it is and isn't, you know, atypical of the larger show.

B (12:41)

So I think it's more focused, but it's not form breaking. Like, it still is a West Wing episode to the point that, you know, we're entertaining meetings, we're talking about, you know, we're in a war room at one point. Like.

D (12:51)

Right.

B (12:52)

All of the settings and kind of check marks are there. It just ultimately is a little narrower where, you know, you don't have, like, a really robust Sam Seaborn plot line. You know, C.J. really isn't doing much other than figuring out, like, where the press conference is going to be.

D (13:05)

Right.

B (13:05)

And for as much as you miss that stuff, the gravitas of this episode is kind of undeniable. And it's. There's so many red flags with two cathedrals. Like, there are the flashbacks you talk about. There's like an imaginary conversation with a dead person. There's a huge musical montage. There's a freaking booming thunderstorm metaphor. And it just hits Joe, like, I don't even really know how to entirely to, like, how to explain it other than to say that there's like, a time for cliche and there's a time for grandeur, and if you calibrate it just so. And Sorkin doesn't always do that. Like, he doesn't always nail it.

D (13:40)

What.

B (13:41)

But when he does, this is what it looks like. When it's not, congratulations, sir, we got Osama bin Laden. This is what you get from the other end of the spectrum.

D (13:50)

How dare you. My favorite episode of the Newsroom. So listen, I think what helps that work is Jed Bartlett himself as this larger than life figure. It's really interesting the way in which people latch onto the West Wing, both as it aired and then in subsequent years when there was this sort of West Wing resurgence during the first Trump administration, during COVID Like, there were all These moments where it's just like this feels comforting. This idea that we live in a world where these are the people who are at the wheel of the world we live in is really appealing to certain people. And I think that like Jed Bartlett, in order to be this guy. And as we hear in one of the flashbacks, Mrs. Landingham says calls him a God king. Right. Like a boy king. Right.

D (14:39)

Thinking about that, of course I love and admire Jed Bartlett. But what I also love that the show does because Jed is kind of Aaron's self insert. They all are. Aaron Sorkin self insert. But like the way that this show pokes at how egotistical one has to be in order to be this person.

B (15:00)

Absolutely.

D (15:01)

So I don't say that to like knock Jed Bartlett entirely. I. I like and admire him and at the same time to grandstand the way that he often does, to believe with conviction that, that I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna win. Like all this sort of stuff like that. Like you have to have this ego. So when he's in the church and he's railing against God in Latin and English, whatever you prefer.

D (15:25)

And it's all framed around like, how could you do this to me?

B (15:29)

Right?

D (15:29)

Right. Josh was my son. Like, not how could you hurt Josh, but like my son. Right. You come for Mrs. Lanningham. She's my sister. Right. You hit my ship. Right. Like he's just made this like entire thing a war between himself and God. And the ego required to frame it all that way is so deliciously fascinating to me inside of that character completely.

B (15:55)

And to have that ego. And I can't even tell you how important it is that young Jed, when he goes out to do the difference making thing, stop short. Like he doesn't.

D (16:05)

He.

B (16:05)

He fails in the thing that young Dolores landing him asks him to do. And this is one of those areas where like, I know we were kind of taking shots at it earlier of the West Wing as this sort of like liberal fantasy. And that's it's true. Like it is a fantasy where like a turn of phrase can hypothetically change people's minds. It's like that is deserved a deserved reputation. But honestly, if you dig into the text of the show, it's mostly President Barlett and his staff getting stymied and roadblocked and having all of their grand plans blown up by whatever happened that day versus whatever they wanted to focus on. And so they still get to make the big speech and they do their jobs With a kind of dignity. And to me, that's what the West Wing is, is are you carrying yourself in a way that respects the people you work with, the world that you live in, and the job that you are setting out to do? And it's not so much like you're always going to have the last clever word, because Jed's dad shows us, like, sometimes that's not so clever. Sometimes that doesn't get you as far as you think it will.

D (17:02)

Another thing I love about this era of television, it's always true of of television that it is a reactive medium. I say that all the time, and I love that about television. You can recalibrate your show based on what's working. So, like, my theory about season two's being the best has to do with how I feel about the TV show Justified, how I feel about the TV show about the Vampire Slayer. Like, these are shows that hit their stride in their second season in a way that, like, just leaps and bounds. But it's reactive. Right. Walton Goggins is incredible on Justified. So we have to make Boyd Crowder, like, the second lead of our show, or Buffy Vampire Slayer. Like, we figured out, we recalibrated the camp, and we figured out exactly where it needs to go, sort of based on how people are responding to things well.

B (17:51)

And David Borean has figured out how to act. There are many variables in that.

D (17:55)

We did have quite a breakthrough in season two.

B (17:57)

It's important.

D (17:58)

So this idea that Katherine Jason, who plays Mrs. Landingham, comes to Aaron Sorkin and is like, I have a pilot. She's a guest star on the show. And she's like, I have a pilot that I want to do. The way Aaron Sorkin tells it is that she did it on a smoke break at, like, some gala they were at or whatever. And he was like, huh? She leaves the show. What am I gonna do? And as Aaron Sorkin tells it, he's like, I don't like the responses to those things where you just sweep it under the rug and Mrs. Landingham has retired somewhere and you just throw a nice little party for her. So how do you react to, like, someone wanting to leave the show? Do you make it the core and text of the show, or do you make this really obvious like, we couldn't keep this actor. They had to leave sort of thing. And so he's like, ah, what if I kill her? And what if I kill her in a way that pushes my main character at that point, Jed Bartlett, his main character, into renouncing his faith which is just a core part of his own character, Right?

B (19:01)

Absolutely.

D (19:02)

And so to turn this casting hiccup. And by the way, like, it's apocryphal. It's either Joan of Arcadia, which she was a guest star on, or a different pilot that didn't go forward. I can't remember with. But it's not like Katherine Jason went on, and you're like, oh, and then she did this great thing that, like, everyone knows her from. She played God on Joan of Arcadia. It was great, but it wasn't like a main character. Anyway, point being, how is God not.

B (19:26)

A main character on Joan of Arcadia?

D (19:29)

Because it takes. God takes many different forms. And so sometimes it's shaped like Mrs. Landingham, and sometimes it's like a young punk rocker. Sometimes it's a kid or. I love show of Arcadia.

B (19:40)

It's a real Touched by an angel situation.

D (19:43)

I love that show. Anyway, I won't defend it, though.

B (19:47)

But.

D (19:48)

It'S sort of like a great what if. What if I hadn't told Aaron Sorkin I was doing that? Would Mrs. Landingham still be on the show? But turning that into daring storytelling like this, I think is a real testament to a writer firing at the top of his game and wanting to take risks and wanting to push his characters and push his writing.

B (20:10)

Yes. And especially to do it with, as you said, a guest star, like, a tertiary character at best, who is a super welcome presence in the show in the early seasons. And, like, you're happy when Mrs. Lanahan gets off a quip or puts, you know, puts President Bartlett in his place in a way that, honestly, only she and Leo really can, like, speak to him that candidly. And so it'll. And absolutely. Abby. You know, Stalker Channing could talk that way to literally anybody, and I would believe it.

D (20:35)

Talk to me like that. Stalker Channing.

B (20:37)

I beg of the athletes.

B (20:40)

Would I sign up for that cameo? I might. You know, I would. But like the idea, as you're saying, Jo, of using Mrs. Laningham's memory and specifically, like, her determination. Right. Like, who she was as a person and that being what nudges Jed Bartlett to not just, like, run for reelection, which would be a. Whatever thing, but, like, to do the hard thing. Right? To face criticism, to answer the questions. Like, that's just a beautiful way to make sense of who these characters are to each other. Like, that's. That is great storytelling.

D (21:09)

All of Aaron Sorkin shows, Sports Night, West Wing, Newsroom, are. They're ostensibly workplace shows, but actually they're family shows. And Most good workplace shows are family shows, but this idea that, like, something that Sorkin likes to say is you could be alone in a big city if you've got family at work, basically, Right? So, like, this idea that Mrs. Lanningham, who positions herself as Jed's older sister in a flashback, but is also, like, motherly to him in a way where he is, like, in a position where he's railing against God, but also his dad has some issues going on and stuff like that.

B (21:50)

But the way that an Aaron Sorkin character with daddy issues don't. I mean, where would it even come from?

D (21:55)

Never heard of it. Certainly not involved in our next show that we're gonna talk about as well. When Jed says, I need pallbearers, and the pallbearers are men in this office, that. That is the family that is here because Mrs. Lanningham's entire family has been, like, wiped away is very, very meaningful. And this idea of, like, the West Wing always has this great cadence of, like, what's next? Right? What's next? What's going on? What is Toby wrangling in this office while CJ's doing this in this office, and Josh and Donna are arguing about this over in the hallway. And there are those moments inside this episode, but then constantly in the background of Jed's mind is, I need pallbearers. There's this funeral happening. There's this loss that's hounding me.

D (22:43)

And I think that's done really subtly and really beautifully inside of this beautiful episode, for sure.

B (22:48)

I mean, they're juggling huge personal loss and huge, like, geopolitical stakes within the same episode. And this is. This is why, of all the frameworks that Sorkin has explored, like the West Wing works best for him is because it feels the least ridiculous to approach the day to day with the level of, like, pomposity we've been talking about and ambition and ego. Like, all that stuff feels natural when it's like the structure of his shows are about people who take their work very, very seriously. And when the work is actually inarguably quite serious, it just kind of lends itself to the format.

D (23:21)

So as a. As a sportsman, you're saying covering sports on a television show isn't as important as running the White House.

B (23:30)

See, I actually think Sports Tonight works quite well even still. And some of that is because sports lend themselves to mythology, and this is why the newsroom doesn't work, because it's like the active real time writing of myth as opposed to, like, regarding, like, a Politician who was shot or, you know, a current event, it just doesn't work. It's just like our relationship to those things is totally different than a mar. Like a long distance runner who's 45 years old and breaking a record and you're on a Sports center knockoff commentating about how incredible and historic and inspirational this is. There's just a different tone that fits his writing better.

D (24:07)

There is also, unfortunately, there's aspects of the Newsroom I actually really quite like. But there is, unfortunately.

D (24:15)

Sportsline is so scrappy and ultimately kind of a failed in its own way experiment. Fern Sorkin, but a show that I really, really love, but it got canceled before it wanted, you know, he wanted it to and stuff like that. West Wing is like the peak of his work. And then the Newsroom is this sort of like, defiantly high on his own supply sort of era of Sorkin that, again, works sometimes, and then when it doesn't, it doesn't. And to go back to this idea of, like, to your point, there's so much stuffing in the turkey here. The. The scene where.

D (24:53)

An imagined version of Mrs. Landingham comes in to the room to talk to Jed after the metaphorical storm has been blowing the door open all episode.

D (25:05)

And they have this conversation. There is a similar scene in the newsroom.

D (25:11)

That I despise. And so it can so easily go wrong completely. I usually roll my head. There's. I. When I. When that happened on the Newsroom, I was like, oh, it's Ghost Dad. Ghost dad bothers me every time. And Ghost dad will show up again and again on shows. It's not a Sorkin problem, it's a TV problem. This feels so different. Why do you think it feels so different in this episode?

B (25:38)

I wish I could put my finger on it. I think, like, again, it's. It's such a finely calibrated measure of like eight different variables. And some of it is just like you have Martin Sheen, right? Like, you just have him in the chair and he could be talking to nobody. He could be talking to a ghost, an actual ghost of Mrs. Laningham, which, as you said, it is not. It could be another actually alive character. And just anything he delivers in that cadence as President Bartlett is going to be pretty compelling. Stuff like, that is a character who can hold the screen and an actor who no question can hold the screen. So if you have that as kind of your foundational point, then I think you just have a little bit more wiggle room to work with. And he also sells the big and Broad stuff so, so. Well, like he. He is. He's the reason why the storm metaphor works because you have him standing in the rain. And I could just watch Martin Sheen standing in the rain looking off into the middle distance and I would be captivated by it.

C (26:34)

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C (27:02)

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B (27:41)

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D (27:57)

One of the categories that we have been doing on these hall of Fame episodes, not consistently, but here and there is needle drop. I actually don't know if I have one for the next one we're going to do. But there is only one answer here. It's. It's an absolutely iconic musical moment inside of television history. How do you feel about Dire Straits in general and Dire Straits usage here?

B (28:22)

Yeah, I have no real relationship to Dire Straits other than if you play this song, I will get goosebumps because of this show.

D (28:30)

Yeah, this is a, this is a television moment that forever changed a lot of people's association, we should say in terms of ratings this got. 20 million people were watching this episode, which is just astonishing. Absolutely bananas. Does not exist anymore. No network television nova standing like this just doesn't happen. And so for like, you know, a good portion of those 20 million people, not to mention all the people who have watched the West Wing since.

D (29:00)

Brothers in Arms, the Dire Stray song forever evokes this television moment. This, this, the grand walk, no talk that the Bartlett administration does over to the press conference and up onto the stage, the American flag blowing in the wind outside behind them. And it works. Like, all of us.

B (29:21)

This is what we're doing.

D (29:22)

How does it happen?

B (29:23)

So, you know, if that doesn't move you, I don't even want to know you. You know, like, it just. It has to affect you in some way. And this is one of those. In terms of the soundtrack and the score of the West Wing, very rarely do you get any of these sorts of needle drops. Like, it's just not that kind of show. It is very much like a Snuffy Walden joint through and through. Like, that is what's going on. So if you hear an electric guitar on the West Wing, you're like, okay, some shit's about to go down. You know, something. Something is really happening and moving here. And to incorporate it with a song that literally opens with its own storm sound effect and to just kind of layer that in with your actual booming tropical storm that's moving through D.C. out of season unusually, in a way that just like President Bartlett cannot stop thinking about, the whole thing just works through and through again in ways that it probably shouldn't and probably wouldn't on basically any other show.

D (30:14)

I think that's true. Do you think?

D (30:19)

I did not watch West Wing in real time. I might have caught up with it before it ended, but definitely sort of a couple seasons and I started watching, like, reruns were happening over the summer or something like that. That's how I caught up on the West Wing. But, like.

D (30:35)

Do you think it takes any of the tension out of this episode, that anyone watching West Wing now knows that probably knows that Tim Matheson is not the president? Like, hoines is not the president going forward on the show, that Bartlett's not only gonna run, but he is gonna win? Like, does that. Do you think that matters at all, watching this episode? Because, like, what's cool about this? I mean, you know he's gonna run because he does the hands in his pocket looks aside smiles thing, right? But it's. It's kind of fun to remember that they didn't explicitly say it and that you have that as, like, not really a cliffhanger, but kind of cliffhanger over the entire summer, which seems like a long time until you remember now that we have, like, three years between things and you probably couldn't get away with this anymore. But, like. But, like, I don't know. There's. There's. There's tension throughout the episode. Is he, you know, he's like, you get Hoins to God. Like, fuck you. I'm not gonna do it. And then he decides to do it. But, like, if you already know that Bartlett's gonna be Bartlett for many seasons afterwards, does. Does that impact at all? It doesn't have to. I was just curious.

B (31:39)

Yeah, I. I think it probably does not impact it. And I say this, like, very anecdotally, as someone who has seen this episode, I don't know, 20 times, and I still feel it. Like, it just. You have a physical feeling watching a dramatic layout like this where it is hitting the beats, it is hitting the musical cues. Like, you're just so on that razor's edge of trying to understand, like, who is this man if he is the broken down, faith disavowing version of the person that we've come to know and understand? And so, like, that variable. Even if I know exactly how season three starts, which. Spoiler alert. It's with a weird 911 classroom allegory.

D (32:17)

I let it roll like I do sometimes with these hall of Fame episodes. So they go, okay, let's watch the next episode. And I was like, what's happening? And I had to remind myself that there's this weird, interstitial sort of episode.

B (32:27)

Isaac and Ishmael. Not canon, not recognized officially. We're just gonna keep moving. But I think even if you know what happens, even if you've seen the show before, there is just something about the magic of this, the space of this episode where you feel everything so acutely and everything is so heightened that I think it pulls you into that moment of, like. Even though I know part of my brain is tricked by this, I love that.

D (32:51)

Do you have a favorite character who's not Jed Bartlett on the show? Like, is there a single person that you're like, this is my guy.

B (32:57)

This is so hard. I mean, I think there is, like, a favorite Beatle thing that happens, at least for me, where I, like, I kind of bounce back and forth. I feel like I am in a Toby place of my life.

D (33:07)

Are you?

B (33:08)

Yeah. I think we all have a Josh Lyman phase of a kind. I think Josh Lyman is probably the Paul. If I had to equate them.

D (33:15)

Yeah, the obvious answer. And what would you say Toby is the.

B (33:20)

He's the George.

D (33:21)

There's no doubt you're a George guy. So, yeah, this is me.

B (33:24)

I'm a rising George. Rising Toby. But, like, how could the writer in us not be moved by Sam Seaborn? How could the person who, like, wants to have the command of a room or hypothetically a podcast, not be channeling their CJ Craig in some way.

D (33:39)

I actually think my answer is Leo McGarry.

B (33:44)

I actually was fucking great.

D (33:45)

John Spencer is my guy. And that certainly wasn't always the case. Like, I think.

D (33:51)

I think I went through a very long Josh Lyman phase, of course. But, yeah, I think it's.

B (33:57)

I mean, you were posting on lemonliman.com with the rest of us, as we know, with alacrity.

D (34:02)

One of the questions we ask ourselves in this episode is like, best performance. And Martin Sheen seems like the obvious answer. But there's something about John Spencer in this episode. He opens the episode with this idea of, like, there's gonna be a press conference tonight. You're gonna wanna watch it. So there's like a ticking clock, as you said on this episode. Like, we're headed towards a press conference where a big decision will be made and.

D (34:26)

The staff doesn't even know what the answer's gonna be. They're going back and forth, as you said. And like Leo, though, there are moves inside of this episode, like the move he pulls with Toby and stuff like that, where it seems like Leo knows that Jed is going to. He feels so certain. But when Leo says, watch this.

D (34:44)

Like, that is the part that actually, like, choked, like, made me choke up watching it. This, rewatching it this time is just like Leo's relationship with Jed. Complicated as it. As it is, is so.

D (34:58)

Beautiful.

B (35:00)

Straight up.

D (35:01)

You can't. In terms of, like, you talking about sports narratives being mythology, sort of writing itself in real time or the history of America is being written, the fictional history of America is being written. This idea of, you know, what is the chief of staff to the boy king who becomes, you know, the king of America? Like, what is that figure? How. What does that guiding hand mean? What is that level of faith in. You mean, especially in a. In a. In a context where, as we go into the other episode, the next, the following episodes, Abby is not that person. You know, so, like, when your spouse is not that person, like Leo, as his, like, work wife essentially is, like, has to sort of stand in for that. And I just think that that relationship is really profound to me.

B (35:50)

So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there's two really fundamental things happening with Leo in this episode. One is what you're saying, which is there's just a read of the West Wing in its bulk that is like a Leo and Jed love story. Bas. This is a long lasting relationship and partnership between these two guys who understand each other. So well. And part of that watch this is the, like, I know this guy better than anyone in this room, and you're gonna wanna pay attention for this moment. And then there's also the grizzled political operator who has seen everything and knows when something special is about to happen. It's like that intersection of this is the moment where everything comes to a head and we all feel it. To hear Leo say it is really the punctuation.

D (36:30)

He's like, can you hear the Dire Straits playing? Do you see the flag flapping? History is about to be written here. Who would you say your best performance in the episode is?

B (36:39)

I think it has to be Martin Sheen. And this is your ongoing reminder that Martin Sheen never won an Emmy for the West Wing. I mean, just tough fields. I get it. But, like, he's so great here in particular, and the show and the episode ride on him. Bartlett, in a place of, like, pure rage, scolding God. The ultimate walk and talk with God in the National Cathedral is, like, I don't say this term light, like, epic television. Like, that is must see stuff.

D (37:07)

I don't know if this is apocryphal, but I read some stories that they got banned from the National Cathedral because of the cigarette moment inside of this episode. Or maybe the cursing out God part of it.

B (37:18)

I don't know. I believe this is the reason why. Like, I'll omit the spoiler, but when a future character dies in the West Wing, they don't return to the National Cathedral for the funeral. So I think there's some truth to it. Or at least some truth of convenience, for sure. I will say, Jo, on the performance front, though, like, this episode does not work without Kirsten Nelson.

D (37:36)

That was my rent out.

B (37:38)

Yeah. Young Dolores Landingham, like, so impeccably cast.

D (37:42)

Yeah. Love her. I'm a huge comfort watch psych person. So I'm a Kirsten Nelson fan. But like, her.

D (37:52)

Impression. That's not an impression. It's an embodied performance is so good. And she is responsible for keeping the importance of Mrs. Landingham alive throughout the episode. Until we get not a ghost. The apparition of Mrs. Landingham at the end of the episode. But.

D (38:10)

To have her so embody the sharpness of that character and to. To be able to see with your own eyes how long that person has been in Jed's life and what it means to lose that person who believed you could make meaningful change even though he fails her inside of that flashback for as long as she did is. It's just so interesting because like I was, I was, I was re listening to the West Wing weekly episode about this episode where, you know, Aaron Sorkin's on giving an interview, Kirsten Nelson's on giving an interview. Like, it's great stuff. They did a two parter. They also had Lawrence o'. Donnell. I didn't listen to the one with Lawrence o', Donnell, but Lawrence o' Donnell did.

B (38:50)

Senior Bartlett himself.

D (38:51)

Lawrence o', Donnell, really weird casting, but it works.

B (38:56)

I mean, like, he's stern in a way. He needs to be stern.

D (38:58)

Something I love about Rishi, who's a friend of mine and the co host of that show is like how like unabashedly and like optimistically he loves the West Wing and I'm just a much more cynical person than him. And I, I love that both of those takes exist. But he's, he was talking about Jed, like talking to the apparition of Mrs. Landingham about like he's just thinking of other people. And I was like, that is such a beautiful way to frame it. And it is on the one hand true, but on the other hand, like, this is a man so certain that no one but himself could do this job. Yes. And that egotism is also really important to me as part of that character. So it is like altruism and it's egoism, like together. And I just, I like the way those flavors, you know, coalesce inside the show.

B (39:52)

He needs the egoism, he needs the altruism which isn't just in him, but is kind of fanned by a lifetime with Dolores Landingham. Like you're seeing her kind of stoke that in him.

D (40:02)

Right.

B (40:02)

And he also needs like the weird underdog chip on your shoulder, like fight. Like that's a huge part of President Bartlett as well and part of what brings him to that press conference. It's fuck you, dad. It's fuck you, God, it's fuck you any like fuck you, Toby. Based on the previous episode. It's like anyone who doubted me, I am going to prove that I can and will do this and that I am the only person that should do this.

D (40:25)

Watch this. Watch this. Most iconic image shot composition.

B (40:29)

I don't think there's a lot of competition, is there?

D (40:32)

What's your answer? I think it's two options.

B (40:35)

I think specifically Jed stepping on the cigarette in the National Cathedral. But really any just showing the cathedral and the scale of it is part of what sets the stage for this whole thing. And certainly that particular monologue, confrontation, however you want to describe it.

D (40:51)

I Think if you show that image Jed Bartlett alone in a cathedral.

D (41:00)

But we've already talked about it. But I will say the American flag waving out of the window as the storm rages.

D (41:08)

I think you have to work really hard to not make that look cheesy. It's true, and it works. So I think yours is the right answer. But I think that flag waving is really interesting. Favorite under recognized detail of this episode.

B (41:23)

Rob, look, depending on your familiarity with the West Wing, it may or may not surprise you that this is not the only time President Bartlett or any character just starts speaking in Latin as. As like a matter of course in the episode. But if you're not, like, in the weeds of this shit, I think part of the important distinction is basically every other time that Jeb Bartlett speaks Latin, it's in this, like, very professorial way, right? It's in, like, he's trying to explain something to Josh or Toby or Sam or CJ from his, like, from his point of view, from within his faith. Just like, you know, an elder passing along wisdom.

D (41:56)

And.

B (41:56)

And the fact that he turns it here like that he's so heartbroken that he turns it to not just, like, talk to God, but mock God effectively. I think it's one of those, like, really stunning character details that even if you don't have that background, you kind of feel it, even though you don't fully realize it.

D (42:13)

Mock God, Curse God out in a way that you can put on primetime television, et cetera. Definitely, for me, and I never noticed it before, but there's a couple different moments where the camera just lingers on Mrs. Landingham's empty, empty desk, like, following characters around, but then it'll just sort of like, stop and just show you her desk empty for a beat or two longer than it normally would. And I thought that was really.

B (42:37)

And Jed can't even look at it. He, like, keeps moving past it, like, as quickly as possible.

D (42:42)

Yeah. Okay. Best moment scene. I think this is also just has to be Jed yelling at God. I don't know what else it could be. You have something else.

B (42:51)

See, I actually think it's the ending.

D (42:53)

Okay.

B (42:54)

I actually. I think it's. I think it's the dire straits buildup to the press conference and the hold your press death season ending moment.

B (43:04)

Look, ultimately, these episodes are really this run of episodes, but this one in particular is just the most revealing part of the West Wing when it comes to character. When it comes to Jed Bartlett, we are laying out who this guy is and what he is made of. And he's put through a lot in two cathedrals. He's isolated. He's being kind of stripped down of the protection of his office in some ways of the pageantry of his office. He is just a guy who's having to make a hard choice while dealing with this other really painful thing. And I think getting him to the point where he goes through all that and he curses God and he has the show, you know, he has the showdown and he has his moment in the office during the storm, getting him to the point where he can walk in there and put his hands in his pockets and smile, look to the side like that is one of the most satisfying renderings of any character in my television life. And so it's like. And it doesn't feel like a cheat or a shortcut, like it feels this, this whole episode really feels like payoff, payoff, payoff, payoff. And it is seeding stuff and bringing it back. And it feels insular within the episode. But it's also like this is two years of President Jed Bartlett getting to this point. And when he gets there, it's hard to argue that that is the moment.

D (44:17)

There is a question I wanted to ask about both this and then the next episode we're going to talk about, which is does this episode work out of context? Sort of like in that vein where we did the hook earlier this year on this feed where we talked about sort of episodes, if they aren't the pilot, what you would show someone to like tell them about what this show is, right? The end of season two of 22 episodes. These are show is way too far in, pretty deep. This would never be the hooked episode. I might talk about a hooked episode actually in a second. But.

D (44:48)

Could you show someone this episode without them having the lead up of knowing who Mrs. Landingham is or knowing about the buildup of the Ms. Storyline or anything like that. Like is this. It doesn't have to be. But I'm just curious if this is an episode you feel like you could show out of context to someone.

B (45:06)

I think it would be legibly very good, but maybe not legibly great. And you need the 40 something episodes of background to really feel everything that you need to feel in an episode like this. But at the same time, the execution of it, the pacing of it, the structure of it, that's all very recognizable. Even if you have no idea who any of these people are.

D (45:27)

Is the West Wing a show that you would put on? Is this a show that you put on just cause I know you have shows like this. Is this a show that you just put on? Like, I want to feel comforted or I want to feel uplifted. Is this like a frequent. You said you watched this episode dozens of times. Like, is. When do you, when do you rewatch the West Wing?

B (45:45)

It's definitely more comfort than uplift. Like, I'm not looking to be roused into political affirmation by the West Wing. I'm like, this is a drama and most importantly, like, a group of characters that are so pleasant to spend time with and wonderful to spend time with. And that's while they're fucking up. It's while they're sometimes doing very dumb things or self centered things or egotistical things or whatever it is. But like, this is in that zone of show for me where it's such an easy comfort watch and a very easy trap of like, I'm gonna put on season one, episode 12, and then all of a sudden I'm on season six because I've just run through the whole thing.

D (46:23)

Rob, who watched all of Lost over the course of like, I don't know, one month.

B (46:27)

It's a slippery slope. That's what I'm saying.

D (46:29)

I feel this way about most of the shows we did for the Hook series and I feel this way about this show. Both. This show, the next one we're going to talk about. I couldn't just stop at one. It's like a. It's like a Pringle. Like, I couldn't just stop at one episode I wanted to watch. I watched like the next three essentially, because there's like the interstitial one and then there's like the two parts premiere. I watched all through that and I was just sort of like, oh, I could do this. I could just keep going. Honestly, why not? What would be the runner up episode if it were not this episode? If you were making this list.

B (46:56)

Yeah.

D (46:58)

And again, I salute our colleagues. They had a really hard job of putting this list together. So I'm not saying it, but if you were to put this list and you're not picking two cathedrals, which West Wing episode are you picking?

B (47:10)

So this is where I operate somewhat in defiance of my earlier claim that there's. I mean, there are many great season two episodes and I want to talk about one in a second, but if I had to pick one, or really I'm going to cheat and pick two, it's 20 hours in America, which is the two part season four premiere. It is a two parter that like has everything. It is Josh and Toby and Donna are out in Iowa, kind of out of their element. It's exposing their hypocrisies a little bit. It's a really good election episode or reelection episode. It's a great issues driven episode. It has guest star Amy Adams out of absolutely nowhere. And also for my money, it has like the single best bit of Sorkin speechifying in the entire series, which is Jed Bartlett's the streets of heaven are too crowded with angels speech. After there's like a bomb that goes off at a school and so it hits like literally everything that the West Wing is at such a high level. If you can like cheat and pick a two parter, I think that would be my pick.

D (48:09)

I think sort of like a clear frontrunner for second place is in Excelsis Deo, which I think a lot of people think of as like the hooked episode perhaps of West Wing. This is a season one episode. This is a Toby centric episode. Your guy Toby, the George Harrison of the West Wing.

D (48:30)

And this is just an episode that stands out in the history of West Wing as the first, maybe the first time the show really demonstrated how high it could reach.

D (48:45)

So that's. And then in the shadow of two gunmen is like, yes, an absolute classic episode. Two parter. Again, a cheat, but, you know, sometimes.

B (48:54)

You gotta smuggle them. And I also like, while we're talking Toby episodes too, I do think 17 people, which is season two, episode 18, the episode where Toby finds out about President Bartlett's Ms. And really is like the one to challenge him about it like this. As you can tell from two cathedrals. Like, the show can be quite forgiving and understanding of President Bartlett, but like, this is a dude who lied to the entire American public about his health for eight straight years. And Toby is really the only one who's like, isn't this kind of up and like shouting at President Barlett in the Oval Office? A remarkable piece of television and really one of the best. Like behind closed doors, debating and arguing, which is the crux of what the West Wing is like. That's that version at its best.

D (49:37)

I love that. Anything else? Any other episodes you want to shout out?

B (49:39)

I think those are the definitive ones for me. There's many other great ones. But again, it's like, I love Somebody's going to emergency, Somebody's going to jail, which is a very Sam Seaborn off on a quest episode. But it's like sometimes those feel a little too much like side missions. It's like we're spending a lot of Time with one of the core senior staff, but not enough time with everybody else to see what they've got going on.

D (50:04)

Do you have a favorite.

D (50:07)

Either, like, sort of recurring guests are like an Oliver Platt sort of like, you know, whatever. Do you have a favorite, like, recurring Marlee Matlin, blah, blah, guest star or like an era of, like, the, you know, various guest stars who stuck around for a while and you're like, I really liked the X era of West Wing, and they never became a series regular, but I was a fan.

B (50:30)

I think.

B (50:32)

A single episode guest star who, like, really got me is Laura Dern pops through as a US Poet laureate who Toby has, like, a really bad crush on, and she's just fucking phenomenal. Like, I mean, as. As you would expect from Laura Dern popping through for an episode, but it's like a great. Another great confrontation of, like, the idealism of the show of somebody who doesn't work in government, who's just like an outside observer but politically minded. And she gets to come in and be the voice of basically, like, why don't we do more about a lot of very seemingly simple ideas and issues? And then Toby gets to be Oscar the Grouch. But they just have, like, such a warm dynamic that I'm so charmed by it. So, like, that's always won her as Tabitha Fortas. That just, like, sings for me.

D (51:14)

Do you. Sorry, I've just never gotten to interrogate you about the West Wing, so I just have a lot of questions.

B (51:19)

This is what we're doing here.

D (51:20)

Joe, do you, when you rewatch do, how often do you rewatch the non Sorkin era versus the Sorkin era of the West Wing?

B (51:29)

I do rewatch it, and in fairness, I think it gets there by seven. It doesn't get back to the heights of the first four seasons, but it gets into a really comfortable, watchable place. I just think if you have Alan Alda on TV that much, it's never gonna be that bad again. The floor is super high. And so by the time you get to seven, they figured some stuff out, and it's so much more of a campaign show than it is an actual running the government show by that stage that it feels like a distinct thing. So look, 5 and 6 can be pretty rocky.

B (52:03)

They didn't do right by our pal Lizzy Moss. Ultimately, with this show with a lot of her plot lines, our best friend, Lizzie Moss. Yeah, ultimately, I think 7 is pretty fun. And so 5 and 6 are definitely the multitasking seasons. Maybe I'll still Put them on. But it's okay if I'm cooking dinner.

D (52:20)

All right, well, this has been a little toe dip into West Wing, one of Rob's favorite shows. I'm really glad that we got to talk about one of your favorite shows.

B (52:29)

Same. Jo, thank you for indulging me. Thank you for the to the ringer.com for giving us this excuse to talk about the west wing.

D (52:36)

16Th on the list. Justin Sales, our producer was like, hey, maybe one of these top episodes. And we're like, nope, number 16 it is. That's what we're doing. Anyway. I really recommend you read, of course, the entire list that's up on theringer.com you know, let us know your opinions about what should have been on there. Definitely politely perhaps disagreeing with what's on there.

D (53:00)

And just like our, our colleagues are just so smart and funny in the way they talk about, write about television and I really admire what they did here. So please support the project. Anything else you want to say, Ramoni.

B (53:12)

Before we go, just email us@prestigetvpotify.com with any of your other various West Wing takes. Mandy was robbed. You know, like Toby got what he deserved in the end. Whatever your bad take may be, I kind of do want to hear it.

D (53:29)

Yeah. Presley TV Spotify.com or resident of Mandyville mail.com We will answer either emails and hopefully we did right by the people who are so excited to see that we would be talking about West Wing. I think some people thought we were doing an every episode rewatch of West.

B (53:46)

Wing and I'm sad to say it's already been done.

D (53:49)

It has been done perfectly. So no need for us to do that. But we will maybe check in again in the future if we have another excuse to do so. Thank you to Kai Grady, our chief of staff on this episode.

D (54:02)

And we'll be back with more Pluribus coverage with another installment of the hundred best episodes of the century episode. We got chair company coverage coming, heated rivalry coverage coming. So there's just a lot going on. So. So stay tuned to the feed and we'll see you soon. Bye.

B (54:30)

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D (54:53)

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow 135 gigabytes of networks busy, taxes and fees extra.

B (55:00)

Cmtmobile.

D (55:00)

Com.