Podcast Summary: The Prestige TV Podcast – ‘The West Wing’ Hall of Fame: “Two Cathedrals”

Date: December 4, 2025
Hosts: Joanna Robinson, Rob Mahoney
Topic: An in-depth discussion on "Two Cathedrals," the Season 2 finale of The West Wing, as part of The Ringer’s "100 Best Episodes of the Century" retrospective.

Overview

This episode of The Prestige TV Podcast offers a passionate, insightful breakdown of “Two Cathedrals,” widely considered to be the pinnacle episode of The West Wing, and frequently cited among television’s all-time greats. Hosts Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney delve into why this episode is so beloved, how it epitomizes Aaron Sorkin’s writing and Martin Sheen’s performance, and its lasting impact on TV storytelling. The conversation is dynamic and personal, blending detailed analysis with the hosts’ own deep connections to the show and its characters.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “100 Best Episodes” List & Context

• The Ringer has published a special “100 Best Episodes of the Century” list, with “Two Cathedrals” ranking at #16 ([01:26]).
• Joanna and Rob will use the Hall of Fame format to spotlight iconic episodes from the list, starting with The West Wing ([02:13]).

Why The West Wing Resonates

• Rob calls it "the ultimate workplace drama," citing the exceptional ensemble and Sorkin's signature dialogue and structure ([04:27]):

  “You’re starting with one of the great ensembles that's ever been put together... the structure, the way everything is tying together. It is kind of a classic TV sensibility, but it’s also very much a playwriting sensibility as well.” ([04:27])

• The show is praised for how it found its identity, shifting focus from Rob Lowe’s Sam Seaborn to Martin Sheen’s President Bartlett ([08:16]).

What Happens in “Two Cathedrals” ([06:12])

• The episode wraps up season-long arcs: President Bartlett’s hidden MS, the fallout from revealing this secret, and the looming question of a re-election bid.
• Mrs. Landingham, Bartlett’s secretary and confidant, is killed in a car accident, setting a tone of loss and introspection.
• The episode unfolds around a “ticking clock” – will Bartlett announce his candidacy for re-election at the press conference?
• The narrative employs flashbacks, linking young Bartlett’s formative experiences with his present crisis.

Season Two as the Golden Age

• The hosts agree season two (and often three) is where most great shows hit their stride, benefitting from cast cohesion and writer confidence ([09:04]).
• Joanna: “We've hit our stride, and we're really just cooking.” ([09:05])

Character Study: Jed Bartlett

• Bartlett is analyzed both as a comforting “God-king” fantasy leader and as a complex, egotistical figure:

  “To grandstand the way that he often does, to believe with conviction... you have to have this ego. So when he's in the church and he's railing against God… he's just made this like entire thing a war between himself and God. And the ego required to frame it all that way is so deliciously fascinating to me.” - Joanna Robinson ([15:29])

• The flashbacks deepen understanding—Mrs. Landingham pushes young Bartlett to real moral action, which he ultimately fails to complete ([16:05]).

The Show’s Writing & Adaptability

• Insights on TV as a “reactive medium”—Mrs. Landingham’s death arose from a real-world casting change, but became emotional fuel for the story ([17:58], [19:40]).
• Rob admires the show’s ability to turn production hiccups into powerful narrative pivots.

Workplace Show or Family Show?

• Sorkin’s “workplace dramas” double as found-family shows, none more so than The West Wing. The loss of Mrs. Landingham becomes a family grieving together.

  “When Jed says, I need pallbearers, and the pallbearers are men in this office, that—that is the family that is here…” ([21:55])

Sorkin’s Style and Why It Works Here

• Hallmarks: big speeches, musical montages, storm metaphors (“the ultimate walk and talk with God”) ([13:05], [36:39]).
• The “imaginary conversation with a dead person” trope works here due to Martin Sheen’s gravitas, while similar moments in The Newsroom fell flat ([25:38]).

  “He’s the reason why the storm metaphor works because you have him standing in the rain. And I could just watch Martin Sheen standing in the rain looking off into the middle distance and I would be captivated by it.” – Rob Mahoney ([26:17])

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

The Cathedral Confrontation

• Bartlett’s anguished, bilingual rant at God stands as a defining moment:

  “Bartlett, in a place of, like, pure rage, scolding God. The ultimate walk and talk with God in the National Cathedral is, like... epic television.” – Rob Mahoney ([36:39])

Dire Straits Needle Drop (Brothers In Arms)

• The usage of “Brothers In Arms” by Dire Straits is universally agreed to be an iconic television needle drop:

  “If you hear an electric guitar on the West Wing, you're like, okay, some shit’s about to go down... To incorporate it with a song that literally opens with its own storm sound effect... the whole thing just works through and through.” – Rob Mahoney ([29:23])

• Joanna notes that for many viewers, the song is forever intertwined with this TV moment ([28:30]).

Leo’s Role and the “Watch This” Moment

• John Spencer’s performance as Leo McGarry is highlighted as an emotional stand-out:

  “When Leo says, watch this—like, that is the part that actually, like, made me choke up watching it this time... Leo's relationship with Jed... is so beautiful.” – Joanna ([34:44])

Ego, Altruism, and Family

• Joanna on Bartlett:

  “This is a man so certain that no one but himself could do this job. Yes. And that egotism is also really important to me as part of that character. So it is like altruism and it's egoism—together.” ([38:56])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–01:22: Ads, Intro
• 01:22–03:58: Introduction, personal connections to The West Wing, discussion of The Ringer's best episodes list
• 06:12–07:24: Episode summary—state of the series, President Bartlett’s MS, Mrs. Landingham’s death
• 10:23–11:05: On writers rooms finding their voice in seasons 2 and 3
• 13:05–15:25: Why “Two Cathedrals” works despite “red flags” like cliches and dramatic devices
• 15:25–17:02: Bartlett’s egotism and the confrontation with God in the cathedral
• 17:58–19:26: Mrs. Landingham’s departure and how real-life casting influenced the narrative
• 20:10–22:43: Mrs. Landingham’s role as a mother/sister figure and the importance of workplace-as-family
• 24:53–26:34: The imagined Mrs. Landingham scene, why it works here compared to elsewhere
• 28:22–30:14: Dire Straits “Brothers In Arms” sequence—impact, rarity of needle drops on the show
• 32:51–34:44: Leo’s pivotal role, the “Watch This” moment, and relationships among the staff
• 36:39–38:10: Best performances—Martin Sheen’s lack of an Emmy, Kirsten Nelson’s role as young Mrs. Landingham
• 41:23–42:37: Underrecognized details—Mrs. Landingham’s empty desk, use of Latin
• 43:04–44:17: Most satisfying scene/ending (“payoff, payoff, payoff”)
• 44:48–45:27: Does the episode work out of context?
• 45:45–46:23: The West Wing as comfort viewing
• 46:56–49:37: Alternate great episodes—“20 Hours in America,” “In Excelsis Deo,” “In the Shadow of Two Gunmen,” “17 People”
• 50:07–51:14: Favorite guest stars—Laura Dern as the Poet Laureate
• 51:19–52:20: Sorkin vs. non-Sorkin eras—Season 7 and Alan Alda

Additional Highlights

• Season two as a TV sweet spot ([08:03], [09:04])—most shows reach their “best” by season two or three.
• Casting and character pivots—discussing how Rob Lowe’s intended lead role gave way to Martin Sheen’s Bartlett ([08:16]).
• Sorkin’s storytelling philosophy—shows are family stories at heart; respond dynamically to cast and audience feedback ([19:40], [21:09]).
• Best “hooked” episode alternatives—“In Excelsis Deo,” “In the Shadow of Two Gunmen,” and “17 People” discussed as possible contenders for the show’s greatest ep ([48:09–49:37]).

Takeaways for New Listeners and Viewers

• “Two Cathedrals” is essential viewing for anyone interested in what made The West Wing—and prestige network TV—so beloved.
• The episode is both “classic” and watershed—a perfect reflection of Sorkin’s writing, the show’s ensemble, and its ability to pivot real-life circumstances into narrative gold.
• Memorable TV moments, like the cathedral storm scene and the climactic needle drop, stand as testaments to the power of character and craft when executed at the highest level.
• The hosts’ conversation balances nostalgia, critical insight, and playful banter, making for an engaging, accessible listen even for West Wing newcomers.
• The emotional impact of “Two Cathedrals” isn’t diminished by knowing the outcome; the craft and performances ensure that even repeat viewers still feel its tension and catharsis ([31:39]).
• The discussion situates “Two Cathedrals” as the result of cumulative character arcs and thematic payoffs, exemplifying prestige TV’s strengths.

Notable Quotes (with Attribution & Timestamps)

• Rob Mahoney:

  “Even West Wing doubters... will reluctantly have their hearts pierced by 'Two Cathedrals.'” ([03:11])

• Joanna Robinson:

  “One of my most cherished, like, beliefs in television is that TV shows are almost always at their best in season two and season three.” ([08:03])

• Rob Mahoney:

  “There's a time for cliché and there's a time for grandeur, and if you calibrate it just so… when [Sorkin] does, this is what it looks like.” ([13:41])

• Joanna Robinson:

  “This is a man so certain that no one but himself could do this job. ... It is like altruism and it’s egoism—together.” ([38:56])

• Rob Mahoney:

  “The ultimate walk and talk with God in the National Cathedral is... epic television.” ([36:39])

• Joanna Robinson on Dire Straits:

  “For like, you know, a good portion of those 20 million people, not to mention all the people who have watched the West Wing since, 'Brothers in Arms' forever evokes this television moment.” ([28:30])

Episode Structure

1. Introductions and episode context ([01:22-02:37])
2. The West Wing’s evolution and resonance ([02:37-05:41])
3. “Two Cathedrals” narrative details ([06:12-07:24])
4. Season two as golden age ([09:04-11:08])
5. Character analysis and Sorkin’s strengths ([13:05-21:55])
6. Mrs. Landingham’s role and the impact of workplace families ([21:50-26:34])
7. Scene and stylistic analysis—flashbacks, musical montage ([24:53-30:14])
8. The episode’s emotional power and legacy ([31:39-37:52])
9. Favorite moments, performances, and underappreciated aspects ([40:29-42:51])
10. Hook episodes and comfort rewatch habits ([44:17-46:23])
11. Other West Wing episode contenders ([46:56-49:37])
12. Guest stars and later seasons ([50:07-52:20])
13. Closing thoughts and listener call-to-action ([52:29-54:02])

A must-listen for fans of The West Wing—or anyone interested in how a “family” of coworkers, stellar writing, and well-earned emotional payoffs created a TV classic.