‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: ‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Release Date: February 26, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosts Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney from The Ringer embark on an in-depth analysis of HBO’s "The White Lotus" Season 3, Episode 2. Titled “‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High,” the episode delves into intricate character dynamics, symbolic motifs, and speculative theories that enrich the storytelling of the popular series.

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1. Introduction and Immersive Reading

The episode begins with a brief, light-hearted discussion about the trend of immersive reading—listening to audiobooks while simultaneously reading the text. Joanna notes, “[...] this is something people do a lot of it has to do with neurodivergence or like, you know, ADHD and stuff” ([01:41]). This segues into their main discussion, setting the stage for a comprehensive deep dive into "The White Lotus."

2. The Monkey Theory and Symbolism

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the recurring presence of monkeys in Season 3. Joanna elaborates on this symbolism:

“If a monkey is even in the background of the scene, we're going to claim victory on this.” ([04:00])

Rob adds depth to the analysis by connecting the monkeys to the concept of the monkey mind in Buddhist practice—a state of restlessness and lack of control in one's thoughts. This metaphorical layer suggests that the characters are grappling with inner turmoil and psychological complexities.

Quotes:

• Joanna Robinson: “The monkey needs to be driving the action in some way.” ([04:00])
• Rob Mahoney: “The captioning for White Lotus [...] sometimes described as chittering.” ([06:43])

3. Character Analysis: The Ratliffs and Potential Threats

The hosts dissect the Ratiff family, particularly focusing on Tim Ratliff’s character. Joanna introduces a listener theory suggesting that Rick (played by Walton Goggins) might be a contract killer, drawing parallels to classic Shakespearean themes. Rob shares his skepticism:

“I don't think Tim Ratliff is going to gun down or poison his children.” ([16:22])

They explore Rick’s complex relationship with his girlfriend, Chelsea, contemplating whether Rick will choose personal redemption or remain entrenched in his professional role as a hitman.

Quotes:

• Rob Mahoney: “I still think he's here for professional reasons.” ([24:38])
• Joanna Robinson: “Can he escape whatever trap that is for yourself and choose something else?” ([26:01])

4. The Blonde Blob: Friendship Dynamics and Insecurities

Joanna and Rob analyze the dynamics of the "Blonde Blob"—a trio of similarly styled, blonde women known for their superficial interactions and underlying insecurities. They discuss how these characters navigate their relationships, highlighting themes of self-worth and competition. Joanna reflects:

“Jacqueline’s power as the pretty one is so important to her, and it is personally devastating to her to have that challenge.” ([34:20])

Rob concurs, emphasizing how each member of the group exhibits vulnerabilities that surface through gossip and subtle conflicts.

Quotes:

• Joanna Robinson: “If she’s not even hot enough to be the hottest in this group...” ([35:08])
• Rob Mahoney: “Their insecurities [...] Am I hot enough or good enough for this relationship...” ([35:36])

5. Russian Influence and the Robbery Plotline

The discussion shifts to the Russian presence in Thailand, aligning real-world events with the show's narrative. Joanna cites a Time Magazine article explaining how Thailand has become a sanctuary for Russians seeking to avoid the Ukraine draft:

“Thailand sees Russian arrivals as key to reviving its pandemic-ravaged tourism industry.” ([46:14])

Rob connects this to the character Valentin, positing that his involvement in a boutique robbery might be influenced by the influx of Russian tourists. This theory adds a layer of geopolitical tension to the storyline.

Quotes:

• Joanna Robinson: “The Laguna beachfront complex [...] is now dubbed Little Moscow.” ([46:14])
• Rob Mahoney: “Valentin is stopping not just to distract guy talk at the gate...” ([47:37])

6. Incest Vibes and the Ratliff Siblings

A prominent theory discussed is the potential incestuous relationship within the Ratliff family. The hosts examine interactions between siblings Lockie and Piper, suggesting underlying tensions and hidden histories:

“The incest vibes are just incredibly strong.” ([54:29])

They analyze specific scenes, such as the ocean hammock interaction, where Piper exhibits signs of internal conflict and confusion, hinting at a deeper, possibly taboo relationship.

Quotes:

• Rob Mahoney: “Lockie is a little freak who wants to stare at his brother’s ass...” ([56:23])
• Joanna Robinson: “It’s hinting at a very rich sibling history.” ([58:23])

7. Future Plot Predictions and Threat Analysis

Joanna and Rob speculate on upcoming plot developments, including the role of the Hollinger bodyguards and the potential for violence or identity crises among the characters. They express concern over unresolved threats and the imminence of chaotic events:

“We got a lot of emails to Rob. Where can folks contact us for this episode?” ([03:05])

Furthermore, they touch upon the "suicide tree" and other symbolic elements that could foreshadow future conflicts.

Quotes:

• Joanna Robinson: “The suicide tree is genuinely [...] if you go to Wikipedia.” ([63:08])
• Rob Mahoney: “Tim is a fucking bamboozler on a massive scale.” ([64:32])

8. Friendship Group Dynamics and Character Development

The hosts delve into the evolving relationships within the friend group, particularly focusing on Laurie as a successful lawyer who breaks the mold of the "shrinking violet." They discuss how Laurie’s assertiveness could introduce new tensions:

“Laurie just seems like she enjoys a Sauvignon Blanc [...] I support her in all of her endeavors.” ([66:37])

Joanna emphasizes the importance of not pigeonholing characters based on their appearance or social roles, highlighting Laurie’s independent streak.

Quotes:

• Rob Mahoney: “Laurie will talk shit about Jacqueline [...] she has arrived.” ([40:38])
• Joanna Robinson: “Let’s not expect that Lori the lawyer is gonna take it lying down.” ([38:57])

9. Final Thoughts and Listener Engagement

As the episode wraps up, Joanna and Rob reflect on the intricate web of relationships and potential plot twists that make "The White Lotus" Season 3 compelling. They encourage listeners to share their theories and engage with the podcast community:

“monkeyshootoutmail.com is where you can reach us.” ([03:29])

They also highlight upcoming content, including their conversation with Damon Lindelof about "Severance," ensuring listeners stay tuned for more deep dives and exclusive interviews.

Quotes:

• Joanna Robinson: “Thanks to Justin Sales for his tireless work [...] check out that Damon Lindelof conversation.” ([68:57])
• Rob Mahoney: “We're simply love to see it.” ([69:01])

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Conclusion

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney deliver a thorough and thought-provoking analysis of "The White Lotus" Season 3, Episode 2. By exploring character motivations, symbolic elements, and potential future developments, they provide listeners with a rich understanding of the series’ complexities. The discussion on incestuous undertones, the Ratliff family's dark secrets, and the dynamic friendships within the "Blonde Blob" offers fans numerous angles to appreciate and anticipate as the season unfolds. Engaging with listener theories and offering insightful predictions, The Prestige TV Podcast remains a must-listen for any dedicated "The White Lotus" enthusiast.

For more detailed discussions and to share your theories, subscribe to The Prestige TV Podcast on your preferred platform and join the conversation at monkeyshootoutmail.com.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai Iced Coffee and Pina Colada flavored Creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now. Foreign hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we're here today to talk to you about listening to audiobooks while reading books at the same time. Dive. Rob, have we ever gotten as many emails about, you know, a subject matter? I think this massively dwarfs the chicken washing emails we've gotten from the severance listenership this week.

[Rob Mahoney]

I am on the right side of history about that. I feel very confident in my opinion. And our listeners who emailed in to just to concur, really, just to stand with me against you and other chicken washers out there, like, look, I don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Think it's against me, okay? This is a severance. We're going to talk about this in the Severance podcast. I don't think it's against me. I think it's out of concern for me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I consider that people being. They're with me.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the important thing, if you are out there listening to a book, audiobook as you read it, immersive reading, as we've been told many people call this. We see you, we hear you, we acknowledge everything that you're doing out there. Clearly there is an incredible market for this that we did not realize.

[Joanna Robinson]

Joe, there's a lot of reasons why people do it. This is something we brought up in last week's discussion of White Lotus. We were noting that Piper was listening to an audiobook and reading at the same time. And Rob and I were asking, hey, is this something people do? And we got a resounding yes, this is something people do. A lot of it has to. Some of it has to do with, like, neurodivergence or like, you know, ADHD and stuff like that, but there's a million different reasons to do it. And I should have known that the great multitaskers of the world, the podcast listeners out there, would. Would have this skill on lockdown. So thank you for all of your emails about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

So that's what the whole pod's about today, right? We're just going to do an immersive reading exercise Together.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Get out your texts. We'll be starting on page 12, I guess.

[Rob Mahoney]

Ostensibly, we are covering White Lotus season three, episode two. That is a thing that we are technically here to do, correct?

[Joanna Robinson]

We are here to talk to you about season three, episode two of White Lotus. And this is, I guess what we're calling kind of the deep dive, where Rob and I, a couple days after the immediate aftermath pods that Mallory, Bill and I are doing on Sunday nights where we're just sort of vibing and talking about things we liked and Mallory's baffling and enduring crush on Patrick Schwarzenegger's character, all of that sort of stuff is in the mix. Then a couple days later, Rob and I get your emails, we look at Reddit, we read interviews with people, and, and, and we dig into some corners of the episode. So, yeah, we got a lot of emails to Rob. Where can folks contact us for this episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm so glad you asked, Joe. They can email [e-mail] or, as always, prestigetvpotify.com but we all know the monkey shootout is coming. It has been foreshadowed. It has been foretold. It is. Monkeys are in every interstitial in this entire episode. Somehow the monkeys are here and they will be shooting out soon. So please email [e-mail] we did get an.

[Joanna Robinson]

We got an email from our listener Rachel, who asks, under the umbrella of the monkeys, did it. Does it have to be a monkey? Literally picks up a gun? Or can it be a monkey? Spooks, startles, attacks someone, and the ensuing shootout is sort of incited by a monkey. In other words, if a monkey is involved in the shootout.

[Rob Mahoney]

A monkey related shooting. Yeah, involved shooting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Does it. Do we still. Will we still feel vindicated in the monkey theory?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm going to say this. If a monkey is even in the background of the scene, we're going to claim victory on this.

[Joanna Robinson]

What about a monkey statue or a monkey mural?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's got to be a live monkey. Unless someone with a gun turns a corner and sees a monkey statue and gets startled and shoots somebody thinking it's a real monkey, then I will still claim victory. So yeah, the gun doesn't have to be in the monkey's hands. I think the monkey needs to be driving the action in some way. Two shots being fired. In that case, it will indeed be a monkey shootout by definition.

[Joanna Robinson]

Definitionally, I completely agree. So double dipping on why Lotus is something we're doing on this feed. And then Rob and I are also covering Severance, a tremendous show. Those podcasts come out end of the week. We've got a very special guest this week. We I, because Rob was not here in studio, got to have a chat with Damon Lindelof, the co creator of Lost and Watchmen and Leftovers and that conversation about severance, about his severance, theories about the loss, references on severance, all that sort of stuff. So that episode will be up on YouTube in full, so you can watch a video of that we record in studio. And then an edited version of that conversation will be on our episode seven Severance podcast that's coming out at the end of the week. So you can hear bits and pieces of it on on Friday with the Severance podcast or you can watch the YouTube version, which should be up in the middle of this week. So either today Wednesday or tomorrow Thursday. So fun, fun things in the Prestige TV podcast feed. Okay, monkeys, I have another thing to talk to you about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob, why not? Let's take another lap.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, monkey shit out is one thing. And the monkey interstitials, as you pointed out, something that Mallory pointed out on the other podcast was that in season two, a lot of the interstitials were those vases with the heads on them that were related to this folklore story that really had nothing at the end of the day to do with Tanya's death in season two of White Lotus. So thematically was related, but was not. Someone was killed by a vase, so. Or a vase grabbed a gun or anything like that. So it could be that the monkeys are just here thematically. And if the monkeys are here thematically, something we might want to keep in mind as we talk about spirituality and Buddhism is this concept of the monkey mind that is part of Buddhist practice. And the monkey mind is, quote, a state of restlessness, capriciousness, and lack of control in one's thoughts, which is, you know, a smear on monkeys, you know, to be clear. But restlessness, capriciousness, and lack of control in one one's thoughts. Is there a single character that you would most put under the monkey mind definition inside of this episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh my God. I mean, the. Our all three members of the Blonde Blob Fancy cougars have very active minds, very active neuroses. As you bring up the monkey mind, Joe, it, it calls to mind something for me, which is in the captioning for White Lotus. You get a lot of these animal noises during the interstitials. And sometimes I feel like the monkeys are described as chittering and sometimes they're described as chattering. Do you have a good handle on what separates a chitter from a chatter?

[Joanna Robinson]

I do. I do know what separates a chitter from a chatter, and thank you so much for asking me. Chittering is a higher register, I would say at a faster cadence than a chatter.

[Rob Mahoney]

Makes sense. So maybe it's more chittering cicadas than it is chittering monkeys.

[Joanna Robinson]

Chittering is usually has to do with, with bugs, but like they chitter and they skitter, that sort of thing. But you're a dog guy. I'm a cat person. I will let you know that cats chitter when they're hunting. If, if like you see a cat, sees a bird out the window, it'll make this like little like chitter noise on the hunt.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, that's very disconcerting.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's terrifying. I love cats. Okay, monkey minded people, I will say this. Tim Ratliff, in his desperation, is reading a bit monkey mind.

[Rob Mahoney]

The man needs allure as a PAM so bad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. His brain is chittering and chattering at the same time and it's, it's a lot for him to handle. Okay. And then on the, on the spirituality sort of blanket around this show, we got multiple emails from one listener. The first time he sent it through Max, he sent through turquoise watch. He then updated it to teal watch. And once he updated it to teal.

[Rob Mahoney]

Watch, it's on our radar.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was in because if folks have been listening to us podcast on this feed for a while, you might remember that when we did True Detective, we were on hardcore teal watch. So the reason that our listener Max is on teal, not turquoise Watch, in terms of like, let's see, what were some of the examples? Like a bathing suit or suitcase or this, that and the other, he was just like this. This color keeps coming up associated with a lot of characters. And he pointed out that in several religions, this color is believed to symbolize clarity and insight, as is a reminder of the sky and the sea, which are vast and expansive, representing the infinite nature of God's uppercase g or lowercase g if you prefer, wisdom and creation. So I just, I would like to fully induct all of us to Teal Watch 2025 White Lotus Edition.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're out here, we're out here looking for teal in every corner and as always, kind of looking for which characters that teal is associated with, I feel like is also very important.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's exactly it. So sort of like who's wearing the teal and does, does or holding something to teal or wrapped in something that's teal and does that color at that time indicate some kind of clarity, I guess would be the idea behind teal. Watch Accent Corner. Rob got a lot of accent emails.

[Rob Mahoney]

We did perhaps more than immersive reading emails and well, maybe, but more divisively, the immersive reading emails were consistently as requested on my part, explaining to us why you might do this. The accent emails, we have people from the Carolinas feeling very strongly on both sides of the dividend. Brother against brother. It's. It's tough times out here.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a lot. I will say this. The most compelling argument I've seen in the these accents are fine, actually camp is that Mike White gave an interview talking about how the Bravo series Southern Charm, which I've never seen, is an inspiration for the Ratliff family and that. And then we got several emails from people saying Tommy Ravenel specifically, specifically on that show, the look, the tan, the polos, the everything, the teeth is a close comp to Jason Isaac's character. And this guy was also a disgraced public figure. So, you know, whom amongst us has not been disgraced by something in their time? But yes, we are an audience divided on Accent Corner. I want to say I don't find it distracting. I don't think it's no, like, I don't think anything is offensively bad. I think some vowels here and there are squidgy. But like Jason Isaacs is and Parker Posey are two of my favorite performers on the show and in general in life. And so it's not a complaint. And I think it's been an interesting conversation from people.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not a complaint, simply commentary. But Joe, I'm curious of your expert opinion on this because as someone who has recently over committed to doing a Southern accent for a very long D and D campaign, I'm curious if that experience brought anything new out for you in terms of the work of not just trying to nail the accent a la Jason Isaacs, which he clearly is at some points, but maintaining it. The overall marathon of maintaining the accent.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, Rob is referring to this thing we did on the Ringerverse feed called Ringer Quest where we did a D and D campaign. We filmed that back in November is when we did that. I did not know it was going to drop right in the middle of me critiquing professional actors in their Southern accents. Well, to be very clear, my Southern accent is way worse than anything that Isaacs and Posey have ever dreamed of. But I'm Not a professional actor. Ring request D and D campaign if you want to hear my terrible southern accent. Thanks for bringing that up, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've enjoyed it a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great. Mini beers? No, regular sized beers in a mini fridge. People seem to think they're all included in in the resort experience. Could be that's bar is a la carte. But your meals and your in room treats are all inclusive.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

So eat all the melon you want to eat at breakfast while you're bizarrely snubbing someone who you met at a, in Austin at a birthday shower. You know, love, last thing. You didn't think that was a snub?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh no, it was. It was absolutely a snub. I mean it was a squinty wall that she was giving in response to the oh, hey girl energy. Like you can't do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you feel like you've encountered a squinty wall in your time growing up in the South? Is this a, is this a normal thing that you've seen?

[Rob Mahoney]

Not that I've encountered, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

Me neither.

[Rob Mahoney]

But maybe in retrospect there was one and I was just oblivious to it or I was think was rude, but in fact they were just blitzed out of their fucking gourd. Like, you know, I think there's many explanations for these things.

[Joanna Robinson]

So you feel like it's the lorazepam. It's like that is what's going on there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like she is comfortably numb every second of every day and also probably does not remember however many years ago this was because she was also then comfortably numb and has no grasp of what happened, when or why or with whom.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like. And I talked to Bill Mallory about this, but I really read to me as someone who doesn't remember it and is like slightly embarrassed that she doesn't remember so is covering it it with rudeness. Okay. And then the staircase connection. We got a lot of emails about this, but I'll just read from one we got from Cara. The Staircase is. Is a, you know, true crime documentary and then fictional series about the Peterson family. And the reason that I brought it up to Bill and Mallory before was there was part one of the theories about what happened to the matriarch of the Peterson family when she fell down a bunch of stairs. Is that an owl did it. And so I was like, an owl did it, a monkey did it. Let's just all talk about that in the family. But a lot of people have pointed out that this, the Peterson family lived in Durham, North Carolina that you know, they went to Duke, blah, blah. And that they were. They had adopted daughters, Margaret and Martha Ratliff. The name Ratliff is associated with the Peterson family. And also that Patrick Schwarzenegger and Parker Posey were in the staircase. So there's just like a lot of staircase connections going on. But this was Durham. This was like, I think a mo. The most compelling comp is that this was like Durham's biggest true crime case that ever happened. And so the question is if we're talking about a North Carolina family based on Southern charm or not, do you believe there's a version of this story where Tim Ratliff, unraveling as he is under the pressure of this looming scandal, does something to himself or his family? Like, is he someone you have your eyeball on?

[Rob Mahoney]

In that way, maybe himself more than his family? We got multiple emails of people worried about Tim Ratliff becoming a. And this is a direct quote from both family Annihilator.

[Joanna Robinson]

A new phrase for me. I learned from our emails.

[Rob Mahoney]

The synchronicity of that concerned me a little bit. But I would say that's not usually what White Lotus is. It's not a show where I expect like, I expect comic shootout with a bunch of criminals involving Jennifer Coolidge. Sure. A man murdering his entire family before committing suicide. I'm gonna say that's not gonna happen. Now. Could he disappear? Could he, you know, he. This is a man who does not seem to have a lot of cards to play. Could he fake his own death? Could he kill himself? I think those things are in play, but I'm not. I don't think Tim Ratliff is going to gun down or poison his children. I just don't see that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you feel like Tim is going to go the Greg Gary route and change his name Tom and disappear?

[Rob Mahoney]

Just go the next White Lotus over. But the problem with that is it doesn't seem like our guy is going to have a lot of disposable funds to do that with. So it's, it's. It's easier to go Gary when you can just live up the hill in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Splendor and pop Tanya's millions.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the thing. Pop down to the restaurant for a quick bite. Maybe that's an argument against the a la carte distinction. Is like he's coming here to eat at the restaurant as a non guest. I've never heard of that at like an all inclusive situation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, that's a good point. You make a good point. I feel like you neither, like charge it to the room or charge it to your card is sort of a thing. So like this. Okay, good question. Let's. Let's keep the emails going. If you were in the hotel industry, if you went to Cornell, let us know what the deal is. Here's the sort of big bucket that I want to put like our, our character by character analysis in. And is this question of identity to go back to the immersive reading moment with Piper, what she was reading about this idea of identity as a prison as a concept inside of. I think that's if we're thinking about this show as a potential for spiritual awakening for these ridiculous people. They're ridiculous people, but some of them might have a spiritual awakening of some kind. Rick certainly seems like to get something question mark out of his therapy session inside of this episode. So you can agree or disagree. We can talk about that in a second. But something that you mentioned, what we've seen in other seasons of White Lotus, this idea of identity is a prison. I feel like there's two outcomes from your state, three outcomes from your stay White Lotus. One is you go home in a body bag. Okay. The other two are you break free from something. You have a. You have a transcendent experience that radically changes your relationship, your family dynamics and like that. And then the other one and the one we've seen a couple times that is the hardest for me to watch is almost like a cementing of yourself inside of something tough. I think about Alby in season two inside of that family where he was like the different one. Different, like could break the, the, the sort of generational philandering thing that was happening in his family. But in the final, final sequence in White Lotus season two, we see grandfather, father, son all turn their head to ogle woman as she walks by. And the implication is just like, Alby's just going to be just like his dad and his grandfather. Certainly Rachel. In season one, Rachel is played by Alexander Daddario. And we're like, leave Shane, he's the worst there. She is just cozied up with Shane at the end of. Of the season. So this idea of like, can you break out of this identity bucket that you've been put in, or are you just going to sort of further nestle yourself into the role that's been designed for you? So how does this apply in your view, when you're thinking about the Ratliffs and you're thinking about, like Lachlan on the verge of trying to make a decision, Piper sort of exploring something else, Saxon wanting To be just like his dad, but not knowing that this thing is coming for his dad. Like, how do you think of this idea of identity as it pertains to those characters?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think it's very notable for one that we don't really talk about Victoria in this way because she is almost consciously running from whatever sense of identity she has other than mother and part of this family and advice giver. As far as, like, don't trust anyone you're not related to. And also, everyone is trying to scam you at all times. Like, her identity feels a little bit more muddled in a way that makes sense for that character. Everyone else is mostly reaching for something, grasping for something. Tim clearly defines a lot of who he is based on this kind of provider mentality.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

As like a very clear patriarch figure. He enjoys being the guy who comes into the room, says, y'all have a good day. I'm going this way while you all do your treatments. Job done here. Like, he seems to drive last action.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have provided this for you. He.

[Rob Mahoney]

He made the plan vis a vis Pam, and now everyone gets to be happy and do their thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Killing it, Pam. Killing it.

[Rob Mahoney]

And, yeah, clearly Saxon wants to be his dad so bad, or at least once daddy's approval so bad, to the point that he'll basically say anything to agree with him across the T. That's fine. We kind of know who that character is. But it's telling that Lachlan is the battleground for so many of these other characters. Like, you can tell from his interactions with Piper that she wants him to be spiritual in the way that she is. Like, she wants him to have these gratifying meditative experiences or praying experiences, like when he's in the float tank and he's clearly not there. And I find what's so interesting about Lachlan is that when he's with Saxon, he has more Piper energy in some ways. And when he's with Piper, he has more Saxon energy in a lot of ways. And you feel that tug between them.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's such an interesting gender split inside of that family. You've got, like, the women, the Unc women and the Duke men and Lachi sort of like in the middle between the two. And you're right. Sort of like posturing. More masculine by rigid definitions. Posturing, more masculine when he's with Piper, and then more submissive, feminine, if you want to say it that way, when he's around Saxon. I did think. We got an email that people thought it was interesting that Piper and Saxon and Lachlan don't have any trace of an accent generationally, to me, that does not ping. Very strange. They were like, wouldn't they have the faintest whiff of, like, a tobacco road sort of accent? I don't know. I don't know how in our. In our constantly online monoculture state, how accents are being handed down regionally and generationally. I have. I have a valley girl, California accent, so I. I can't speak to that, but.

[Rob Mahoney]

Monkeyshootoutmail.com yeah, I think they do mute over time. My parents certainly have much more of a twang than I do. And for me, it comes out more on the y'alls. It comes out more with, like, specific words and things like that. But I think that's pretty natural, especially for kids who have, like, if you've been to. Depending on where you grew up, if you're growing up in, like, more urban versus rural areas where those accents. Accents might be, like, a little more hardened if you're going away for school versus staying close by for school. Like, all those things are variables. But I think it's pretty natural for kids to grow up with a. A much less significant version of the same accent, if not lose it altogether.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've never been around drunk. Rob, does your accent come out when you have had some free beverages from the mini bar?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

How about when you go back home.

[Rob Mahoney]

A little bit, there's that kind of echoing effect that happens. Absolutely. But ultimately, I think it just doesn't come out that much at all.

[Joanna Robinson]

Um, I have a friend from Arkansas who you would not know is from Arkansas until he gets four drinks in. It's wild. Okay, let's talk about Rick. Our guy Rick. So we got an email from I. I got baited in the email, and I could not resist taking the bait. Blake wrote in on Shakespeare Corner, and he pointed out that Rick says nothing comes from nothing, which is a pretty famous and important line from King Lear said by Lear to his daughter Cordelia when she refuses to lather him with praise like her other two sisters. Could this be a little clue to suggest that Jim Hollinger is in fact Rick's dad? And then he potentially cut Rick out of some kind of inheritance after an act of, quote, disrespect, much like Lear did to Cordelia? Love a Shakespeare Corner. Thanks so much, Blake. I. To me, I will say inside of the session, when Rick is. Is talking to Amarita about his dad, that sounded genuine to me, whether whatever is true. About Jim Hollinger. I believe that Rick thinks his dad is dead and not in the. Like, Anakin Skywalker died so Darth Vader.

[Rob Mahoney]

Could live from a certain point of view. Jo.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. What do you think about Rick's dad and Jim Hollinger and what we've learned so far?

[Rob Mahoney]

I still think he's here for professional reasons.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, you don't think this is personal vengeance?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think this is personal vengeance. I think a lot of that backstory is more. My read on it to this point is more to illustrate Rick as sort of this empty vessel, this person who is devoid of identity, who has tried to take away every shred of identity that he ever thought he had. For maybe these reasons he lays out, which is that his mom overdosed and his dad was murdered. I also don't know if we're supposed to take those things at 100% face value or not, or if that's just a guy who does not want to be in this meditative session. Not wanting to talk.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I just. I watched that. I watched that interaction through a few times, and to me, it really rings as true. To him, though, I agree with you that he does not want to be there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Does not.

[Joanna Robinson]

I believe that he believes what he's saying there. Whether or not he's saying it in an intentionally provocative way to try to get out of that session, you know, is its own thing. But in terms of, like, that identity, bigger identity question, you think is professional? I. I still tend to think it's personal vengeance of some kind. And the thing that I'm focused on with Rick is he seems like he's on a. Like, that Chelsea is pulling him to do one thing, which is like, have fun. Work on yourself.

[Rob Mahoney]

Be a human being. Be more than nothing, really.

[Joanna Robinson]

Be here now. Be present. You have issues, please work through them. Please be here with me. So that's like, one force pulling on him, and then there's this other thing pulling on him. And. And, you know, from your point of view, is professional. From my point of view, it's personal and vengeful. But either way feels like, to me, the Chelsea path is the. Is the better path, is the right path.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's up in the air to me at this point whether Rick is going to be one of those characters where we are disappointed that he couldn't break out of either his professional gig as a hitman. Question. Is that what you're saying? Professional hitman?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think hitman feels the most likely. But it also could be he just needs to meet this man for some sort of clandestine reason. Like, it could be a delivery, it could be information. I don't know exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

It doesn't seem good, right? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, I mean, look, I think Walton Goggins is a great hang. I think Hollinger would be so lucky. As for Rick, to chase him down.

[Joanna Robinson]

In Bangkok, you just love him as an outlaw. I understand. I really do understand.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I love him as a philosopher. And I'm glad we get this sequence with Amrita, because frankly, I don't think, like, Rick thinks so little of Chelsea in certain ways that he would never have this kind of conversation with her. I don't think about what he contains in his soul is not really what their relationship is at this stage. Maybe someday it will be. He does not like, bare to her in that very specific way. And look, I think they are an incredible pair. And I think there is a push and pull on a chemical level that makes a lot of sense. And I think you nailed it in that she is really good for him in a lot of ways. Like, she is pushing him out of his comfort zone. She is, like, calling him on his bullshit. And clearly he provides a kind of security for Chelsea that she needs. Like, he gives her a comfort and a safety, like, even when she's, like, basically begging him to be held and protected. Like, there is a dynamic here that makes a lot of sense and one that I think is so expertly deployed opposite Chloe and Greg, where, as we are told many times in this episode, basically the same people. Young woman, grumpy, older man. Yeah, the parallels are obvious, but Chloe hates Greg by every indication we have in the show. They have a purely transactional relationship where she is a sex worker, it seems of some kind. Or at least Rick is very quick to point that out. Chelsea and Rick could not be more different in their way. Like, I think they are both benefiting from each other in some ways. Like, Chelsea may not be on this kind of trip if not for Rick. And Rick may benefit for whatever his purposes are, personal or professional, from having a partner to travel with, for cover or otherwise, but they have an actual functional relationship. It's. It's weird, but it kind of works in its way.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's genuine affection and connection there. When she runs to him after the robbery, the connection that they have in bed, like, all of that stuff feels genuine. Like there is affection there. There is a potential there for Rick to make a choice, it seems like to me. Yeah, and I don't know which way he's gonna go. And can he, can he. The identity of Chelsea's boyfriend is much better to me than whatever else he's facing in terms of like, you know, son, child of tragedy, or all these other things that are hanging over him that truly did happen to him. But can you escape whatever, you know, trap that is for yourself and choose something else?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. I also think I never would have, in my very limited casting wisdom, thought to put Walton Goggins opposite Amylou Wood and say that is a pairing that should work as a couple who is traveling abroad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

There is more charge in like a four word exchange between them. When she tells him he's so mysterious and he just says, I'm not. Then basically, like any supposedly steamy show on television now or in the recent past, like, and that's before they start the proper foreplay, like, there is just something between them that absolutely works in that way. And once you have that, you can sell a lot of the rest and you can understand the emotional beats and you can figure out, like, who these people are to each other and what they can mean. But you're right. Like, it terrifies me to hear you lay it out in the way of Rick as somebody who is going to probably have to make a choice at some point, specifically as far as his identity. When we just talked about all the White Lotus characters who just crystallize in their worst instincts by the end of.

[Joanna Robinson]

The season, but some break out. So it's like, so, so what's going to happen here? And the way I see it is like, you know, there's. Do I go. It seems like there's a. Do I go to Bangkok and pursue Jim Hollinger there or do I stay here at the White Lotus with Chelsea?

[Rob Mahoney]

She's definitely going to Bangkok, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yep, I think so.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm worried for you, Rick. Okay, let's talk about. Someone objected to us calling them the Blonde Blob, but again, that is. That is what Mike White called them. You can go with fancy cougars, which is Bills or Bill has started calling them just the fancies, if you prefer.

[Rob Mahoney]

The fancies is not softened a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Along the Blonde Blob line, though, we got an email from you already mentioned one Kara, who emailed in a different. Kara emailed us in to point out that it's not often in TV that you get stories that it's like one insulated storyline with people of the same gender, the same age bracket, the same hair color and it feels very telling in that way that they are allowed to be the blonde blob and written to be the blond blob. Because usually in these exact scenarios, one has to be brunette, one has to wear glasses, one has to be in a different, like, age set or have a dramatically different style. These are three women who are styled pretty similarly at the end of the day. And the fact that they are constructed as one unit to be considered and also to pull apart from itself, I think is where the fun comes from.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that's so true. In Kara's email, she pointed out certain cases, like the fact that Leighton Meester had to dye her hair brunette to play opposite Blake Lively and stuff like that. So, yeah, there's often a we can't have two blondes, we can't have three brunettes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Something like, how could we possibly tell them apart?

[Joanna Robinson]

Couldn't possibly do it. Okay, so on the one hand, that is true, and I love that point. I'm glad you brought that up. On the other hand, inside of their blonde blobliness, I was thinking about this is, you know, you're slightly younger than me. There's. There's this, like, early era of Internet. Did you ever watch Teen Girl Squad? Is that ever something that came across? You're transom?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, Joe, those words mean nothing to me. What is Teen Girl Squad?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like early, early Internet, like, cartoon sketchery. But Teen Girl Squad, which is genuinely great. And I think about all the time, if the intro would be, like, the pretty one, the ugly one, what's her face? So and so and so. This idea that, like, the blonde blob, despite their blobbiness, have these set roles that perhaps they played. Jacqueline was always the face is something that they talked about earlier. Right. Like, there are distinct roles inside of their friendships that they've always had. And what is challenged inside of this episode when Valentin does his thing, which is tell the women the same thing, what does that do to Jacqueline?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, devastates her. Nothing. Nothing gets between friends like data, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like metrics, like body fat percentage. So like Jacqueline having to consider that Laurie could be compared to her.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is, as you said, devastating to Jacqueline. So these identities inside of their same demo, Jacqueline's power as the pretty one, the face, is so important to her, and it is personally devastating to her to have that challenge. And it makes me think about, like, when you think about Tim Ratliff or Jacqueline Lemon here, they're the power that protects them. I'm the rich provider. I'm the Hot TV star.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Also the provider who's paying for this trip, for the most part.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly. Is so brittle, is so fragile. And, like, what happens when it cracks or is exploded, you know, let me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tell you, we'll be cracking imminently within episodes, if it isn't already. But you're absolutely right about Jacquelyn, and I think it's tied too, into her standing in the broader world. Right there is who she is in this friend group. And it feels increasingly, as we learn more about her, like, this is a bit of a retreat. This is a bit of a circling the wagons for somebody who's going through a lot, who has a lot of neuroses, who has this husband who she's obsessed with healthily, and there's definitely nothing weird going on there at all. And she's definitely not insecure about the fact that he's 10 years younger than her and clearly very, very, very hot. And so you see a lot, I feel like, among.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

The fancies, the fancy cougars, the blonde blob, whatever you prefer of these women, kind of speaking to their insecurities, both directly and indirectly. And for Jacqueline, it is a lot of like, am I hot enough or good enough for this relationship that I'm in is one of the insecurities she's talking about. But you can transpose it on her friends too, where it's like, if she's not even hot enough to be the hottest in this group, how is she gonna be hot enough to fend off everyone who's making advances on her hot husband?

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I feel like in Kate, the insecurity that you hear is a lot more like it's played for last with the Parker Posey scene in terms of, like, the non recognition. But she comes away from it. Like, she seems genuinely a little bothered. And her thought is, am I that forgettable?

[Joanna Robinson]

Am I boring?

[Rob Mahoney]

Am I that boring? And the answer might be yes. Like, the most interesting. This thing this woman has to say is about beans, which we can circle back to if you'd like. But, like, that seems like where she is is she's trying to figure, like, she wants to be notable beyond more just than just being, like, a rich guy's wife.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. There's also the question. I don't know the answer to it, but there is the question. I think we got some emails about this. I've seen it floating around, this idea of, like, new money versus old money.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, is Kate new money? And Victoria is definitely old money. So there's just sort of like this.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Jacqueline's new money too, in her way. Hence why she's a prostitute. Yeah, I think you get this kind of really hammered home by the end. When Tim is on the phone talking about the light to medium money laundering that he seems to have done for only $10 million. It's like just a drop.

[Joanna Robinson]

He barely made me any money.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just 10 mil versus, you know, like, even for someone like Jacqueline, $10 million is probably a lot of money.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Okay, so something I want to say about that breakfast scene when Piper is doing her devastating. This is Disneyland from. For, you know, women from Malibu and their Lululemon yoga pants. And then the ladies walk by and they're Lululemons.

[Rob Mahoney]

That was the closest she's gotten to Sydney Sweeney era White Lotus so far. Just like she has it in her. And I wonder if we're gonna see more and more of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Get them, Piper. Okay, so here's the thing. My best friend Diana Helmuth wrote a book called 50 Places to Practice yoga before you die. She. She works on this 50 places friend book franchise. And I. The. The hard time she had in calling around, you know, investigating these, like, really cool places you can go to do yoga around the world. A lot of them in Asia, Southeast Asia, et cetera, trying to find non white women to talk to. Because most of these retreats are run by white women who have gone to find themselves in Asia. And it, you know, my best friend, a white woman, but it was like driving her up the wall. She's like, I don't want to keep talking to all these white women who have gone to India to find themselves. But I was like, making me think about that. And she, she, you know, she eventually found them. It's a great book, but it was just like, it was just like the struggle was real in terms of how much white women have taken over this scene inside of. Of Southeast Asia. And I was just thinking about Jacqueline and Kate when I was thinking about that something our listener Joanna wrote in about. Not me, another Joanna. She was like, let's not put Laurie in the shrinking violet bucket. Like, she is a hard hitting successful, maybe did not get the latest promotion, but successful lawyer in New York. So at apparently a top firm. So like we've been waiting for, like, what's the Carrie Coon explosion? Like, whatever's gonna come inside of the fracturing of this friend group or something like that. Let's not expect that Lori the lawyer is gonna take it lying down.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. Is that something that's on your radar.

[Rob Mahoney]

When frankly it was good to see the claws come out a little bit as far as her place in this relationship that she can talk some shit to, she can gossip with the best of them. Like, the dynamics shift depending on which two women are in the room.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And we get some hints at a backstory as far as, like, you know, the potential, like, pursuit of Valentine, for example. Like, oh, this is Cancun all over again. Like, Laura's been out here getting after it all. Right. Like, she's. She's lived a life. She's had a pretty successful career, if not, as you said, in the way that she may have wanted as far as making a partner. But I love the developing relationship and the rounding out or, I guess, hardening edge of the triangle between these three women.

[Joanna Robinson]

The trust triangle. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is my mathematical proof, Joe, and please check my work here. Kate will talk shit about Laurie, but she kind of needs to be nudged to talk shit about Jaclyn. Like, she feels like she's a little more hesitant to talk shit about Jaclyn and in some ways maybe wants to be Jacquelyn or have Jaclyn's face or whatever you prefer. Jacqueline will hear gossip about Laurie, but honestly mostly seems to pity her and her circumstances in ways where she doesn't want to pile on too much.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Laurie will talk shit about Jacqueline, and that's, I think, our new development in this episode. She's coming in hot. It just might take her, like a bottle. Bottle and half of Sauvignon Blanc to get there. And once she does, she has arrived.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah. I. What do you think Jacqueline and Laurie will find to talk shit about Kate? Will it be the beans? Will they be like, oh, the bean conversation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can you believe that about the beans?

[Joanna Robinson]

She brings the beans one more time.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna need episode seven, Kate to just be eating a big old plate of beans. Like, we. We don't need to call it out.

[Joanna Robinson]

But we need forget the melon. It's. It's bean time.

[Rob Mahoney]

The real ones need to know, and we need to see it in action. But honestly, I wonder if we're going to get that. I wonder if this is the case where it is a triangle, technically, but Kate is kind of the hinge point. And because we're already told that Jacqueline and Laurie haven't seen each other in four years, I think is what Jacqueline says. Like, maybe they're just not as close. Maybe Kate's role in this, in this friend group has always been that she's sort of the middle ground for both of them and the way that everything makes sense. So I honestly don't know if we're going to get that. But it would fit the monkey see no evil, hear no evil theme. Yeah, because I thought it was kind of interesting that when their friends are gossiping about them, Laurie sees her friends through the window but can't hear them. Jacqueline hears her friends from downstairs but can't see them. Maybe we do get, you know, the. The trifecta as far. I don't even know what it would be at that point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, are you speak your friends?

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you writing bullshit about. Are you tech? Well, they don't have their phones, I guess at least we don't think they have their ph. It's got to be some version of the written word.

[Joanna Robinson]

One thing that I love that Mike White has said over the course of three seasons of this show is when people are like, hey, which of these characters do you most closely identify with? And he's like, I'm all of them. Yeah, that's the point how Mike White thinks about these characters. So we got an email from listener Alex who was saying was rewatching season one, you brought up our pal Sydney Sweeney. Alex pointed out that in season one, Sydney Sweeney and her friend are making up Personas for all the guests. And they mentioned something about how Jennifer Coolidge's character is a rich woman waiting for her friends who just, quote, tolerate her because she pays for everything. Interesting how Mike White seeded this. Even then curious if this inspired the blondies cute. Or if he has been plotting this all along. Either way, just appreciate the attention to detail always. So I do think there's always a version inside of White Lotus of the have and the have not inside of these. An unbalance of power. Like if you think of like Portia in season two working for Tanya, like the only reason Portia's there is because she's in Tanya's employees. Like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

If Mike White, an incredibly successful and rich yet deeply insecure person, is someone who has gone around the world thinking, hey, are these people just hanging out with me because I'm rich, because I'm successful, because I'm famous? And like Jacqueline Lemonade, why are Kate and Laura are Kate and Laurie there because they really care about Jacqueline or Kate and Laurie there because it's an all inclusive, cool trip to Thailand with their famous, they can draft off the fame, a bit of Jacqueline, maybe a.

[Rob Mahoney]

Little of all of the above. And this is what I love about this friend group is there is so much being critical of each other. Under the guise of care, under the guise of like, oh, I'm so concerned about their well being. I'm so concerned about their life. But they always double back to like, oh, but she's so great. Oh, but she's so beautiful. On the one hand, that could be very superficial. I also think it can kind of be true of the people that you're closest with and like, who have you have the longest lasting connections with is you can be critical of them and wonder what the hell they're doing, but also care about them. I don't know that that's the case here. And maybe it's not. Maybe this is a long, a long lasting friendship that should have petered out years and years ago and these women are kind of holding on to. But I think there's something true in that or at least something true in the way people try to act, which is they, they, they want to be close even if they aren't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And I've definitely done that with friends of, you know, out of concern. Also veered into shit talking territory that is, I'm, I'm merely a human. I like to think I don't do it very much anymore. But definitely when I was younger, that was the thing that I did. I want to talk to you about the robbery.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And our guy Valentin, who is not just our guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's not my guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Your guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is not my guy. I just want to say, Valentine, not.

[Joanna Robinson]

My guy who is not only causing strife with the biometrics, but also, it seems like is involved in the boutique robbery. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

100%.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you know about the Russian population in Thailand?

[Rob Mahoney]

Not enough. Can you take me on a journey?

[Joanna Robinson]

I sure can. I read some articles about it because I. Mike White was talking in interviews about how when they spent time there, there were so many Russians. He felt like it would be weird to not include a Russian storyline. It would not genuinely reflect what's happening in Thailand right now to not include a Russian storyline. So I was like, news to me. What can you tell me? So there's a great Time magazine article I think from last year about this, quoting from that article. While many Western nations have shut out Russian air travel in response to Vladimir Putin's full scale invasion of Ukraine, Thailand sees Russian arrivals as key to reviving its pandemic ravaged tourism industry. In October, Thai prime minister extended 90 day visas upon upon arrival for Russian passports, insisting in a February interview, we're not part of the Ukraine conflict, we're neutral. In 2023 Russians ranked top for Tourist arrivals in Thailand from the outside of Asia. With 1.4 million visitors, it's a way to avoid the draft. If you go to Thailand and just stay there, you can not get drafted into the war.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so that's a thing that you can do. So it's like going to, to Canada for Americans during Vietnam. And then in Phuket. The Laguna beachfront complex of villas, ornamental lake, etc and 18 hole golf course is now dubbed Little Moscow for the sheer influx of moneyed Russians who have just come to sort of shelter in Thailand. So that is a thing. We've got Valentine. But like, what else is to come on the Russian storyline front? What do you want to say about. I don't know, this is a, a sort of thing that's happening in Thailand or the robbery or anything else that pertaining to your guy Valentin, I mean.

[Rob Mahoney]

Certainly makes it all the more understandable why Suitala would point out, oh, he's Russian when they show up. And like how it would be useful from you know, the perspective of working at a hotel to have a fluent Russian speaker, somebody to work with Russian guests. Like that makes all the sense in the world. Also would help us understand why these other two robbers might be potentially Russian. The fact that Valentin is so clearly involved, to me, and this has been easily the funniest thing for as far as from a theory standpoint, the number of people who I have seen suggested as potentially behind the masks executing this robbery, let me tell you, Greg is not robbing this hotel.

[Joanna Robinson]

My guy's not spry. He is not a spry guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

That tells me you have never seen a man of Greg's age move like the hip, the hip mobility. He's not swiveling like that. Like, it's just not happening. I'm sorry. It's just he's not moving in that way. And so I think you can very easily go through the list of like people it could not be under any circumstances or people who narratively probably would not make sense.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

But then there's Valentin, who is stopping not just to distract guy talk at the gate, but parking his bike underneath the gate itself and preventing it from closing as he is soft pitching the idea of going to these fights together. I want to see if those tickets come through. By the way. He better at least deliver for our guy guy talk.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Muay Thai fights, I really am hoping is part of the storyline in this, in the show. You said our guy guy talk.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, I walked that one back too. He's also not my guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Last week you were on Nice Guy watch. Nice Guy talk Watch.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where are you after this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, more. Even more on that corner.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that. Like, this is. I. This is a slight role reversal for us because, like, we got a lot of emails from people being like, we love that Rob is. Rob is an ally. Rob is the best. Like, Rob is in on this. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm all in on guy talk. I really like him.

[Rob Mahoney]

His idea of a chill first date is like a marriage proposal. Like, he's coming in way, way, way too hot.

[Joanna Robinson]

They've known each other forever, though.

[Rob Mahoney]

His pitch is like, your family likes me, and I can maybe, like, hang a picture frame. That's his pitch.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, listen, don't underestimate someone who can hang a picture frame. But also, like, I. I agree that there are moves here that feel classically capital N, capital G, Nice guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it all depends on his reaction to Mook, and I don't feel like his reaction to her rejection was shitty, you know?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

Disappointed.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not yet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like.

[Rob Mahoney]

But she also has only, to this point, affirmed him with attention.

[Joanna Robinson]

Does that. Okay, but does that mean that she's somewhat interested in him? It. What. What it requires for Gaia talk to not be in capital and capital G, nice guy territory is reciprocity. Right. The nice guy is pursuing without any measure of interest from the girl, in fact, turning a blind eye to her discomfort and disinterest. And while Mook is sort of like, hey, man, we haven't even been on a date. Why are you proposing marriage to me? She's not reading as uncomfortable to me when she's around him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not uncomfortable. There is a shy sweetness to them that I do enjoy watching. I disagree, though, that the reciprocity is sort of what. What punctures the idea, because you can be in a relationship with a guy and find out into the relationship with interest and with care and with love that they are actually a nice guy at heart and want to be controlling and want to kind of make these strictures around your life. I think the test is gonna be when, you know, Hollinger's bodyguards come calling again, when someone else shows interest, when Mook veers away from nursing him and holding his ice pack, what happens? Like, what is left of our guy guy talk. Sorry, your guy guy talk.

[Joanna Robinson]

My guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because, yeah, like, right now, his only move is basically, marry me. And it feels intense. And, yes, she is kind of laughing it off. Does not seem entirely uncomfortable with his advances. Yeah, but I'm Worried.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. I think it's good to keep an eye on guy Talk or any nice guy that we meet. Capital and capital G. But I, I'm leaning because I feel like oftentimes actually that's not true of season one. I was just thinking of that there was like the, the front desk couple in season two that were like hotel staff that, you know, were quite background but were like kind of rooting for, I don't know, good to keep an eye on it. Our my guy Guy Talk is a hero for the moment. Even though he didn't really do anything. But that's okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, he took a pistol whip and ultimately he got the most powerful medicine that there is, which is the sweet, sweet affection of the person that you're interested in. So he's, he's doing all right at this point.

[Joanna Robinson]

I want to call out our guy. Our guy Fabian, who's the, who's the resort manager who like in comparison to the two resort managers that we've seen the previous season, has a much smaller role. But we did get a couple emails from people pointing out that Christian Friedel, who plays Fabian or Friedel who plays Fabian, was a scary ass Nazi in the Zone of interest, a tremendous film that came out two years ago. So is there something coming for Fabian, like as we were waiting for Carrie Coon to have her big moment. Should we be waiting for Fabian's big moment and is it going to be performing at. At dinner some night or something?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, he could not be more tightly wound, so it would not surprise me to see him break at some point. I love him the way he is, just like a living, breathing anxiety spiral who eventually will talk himself into a fugue state if you let him go long enough. I love in this show, love everything that Fabian is bringing to the table. Love the lip syncing Wisfala's performance.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh my God.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he's going to be more comedic effect moving some plot lines along. I don't see like a tragic fate becoming him, but I am so happy here.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's so great. The like the, the trying to tell someone not to clear the plate in the most inefficient way possible. I don't know how he got this job, but good for him. Do you think the biggest threat to. You mentioned the Hollinger bodyguards, but do you think the biggest threat to the guy talk Mook romance could be if Pornchide takes his shirt off in front of Mook?

[Rob Mahoney]

You think Mook wants some of those.

[Joanna Robinson]

Special treatments too, saying, no, no pornchy in my view, belongs to Belinda, but, like, belongs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Guy takes off his shirt one time, and now they are betrothed.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's energy there.

[Rob Mahoney]

There is. Look, she. She is into the milk soap. She is into the salt scrub. Like, she's having a great time. And I. I support Belinda and her pursuits.

[Joanna Robinson]

Goggins is also not skipping arm day. I'm just saying it's a great. It was a great episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Everyone knew they were coming to Thailand and they're gonna be taking their shirts off. They knew there were gonna be some open, flowing garments. And everyone. Everyone is really ready.

[Joanna Robinson]

What else do you want to talk about, Joanna?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know what's going on with the Ratliff kids, but at this point, I'm very worried that somebody's. Something is gonna end up in someone, and I don't know who or which or what. The incest vibes are just incredibly strong.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tough. It's tough between everybody.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, everybody's in each other's business.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really hate the way you just phrase that, but I can't find my. I didn't need to disagree with you.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not good.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you had to pick a pairing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, boy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where do you feel we're most likely to land?

[Rob Mahoney]

I have a very bad feeling that there is a Piper Saxon situation happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

Actively happening.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know if actively happening, but, like, something did happen. Something is weird. I want to. I want to go through specifically when Lockie and Piper are out in the ocean hammocks and he brings.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can we press pause? Can we press pause on somebody? Something is going to go into somebody else's. Something else. And. And just admire the ocean hammocks. You're a hammock guy, Rob. You love a hammock.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love a hammock. I would love an ocean. Oh, my God. Are you kidding? This is an ideal setup. This is where you want to be. I think the only issue with the ocean hammock, and this is only a problem if you are an adult, 20, 25 person like I am. It's hard to bring things out to the hammock if you're having to swim to it. Like, you could have the waterproof bag with your book in it or your music in it. Like what? You know, your headphones, whatever it is that you want to bring. But look very good for presence, very good for tranquility. I will. I would love to be in that hammock.

[Joanna Robinson]

What if it's like a waiting. You're waiting out scenario? You're waiting out to the thing and.

[Rob Mahoney]

You'Re just holding your book definitely works, but, like, Piper. Piper's going full, like, freestyle. Like, she's. She's swimming out there, so it's at least a little bit deep.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's. She's a talented individual. All right, so if you guys are listening to this, that's great. And we love when you listen. If you're watching, I just want to let you know that I've been podcasting. How long have we been podcasting now? Over a year, year and a half.

[Rob Mahoney]

We've had a good run.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've never seen you make as an uncomfortable a face as you just made earlier when you were describing the Ratliff siblings. So would you like to return to that? I just thought we would take a brief respite into Ocean Hammock Corner. But let's go back to. To incest corner. Incest road with a Ratliff kid.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not a corner you want to be in. It's not legal in many states, but yeah. Thank you.

[Joanna Robinson]

All of them, right? All of them.

[Rob Mahoney]

I hope. I almost am scared to know at this point. Okay, so Lockie brings up to Piper, by the way, Saxon says that you've never had sex before.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, totally normal.

[Rob Mahoney]

What Sarah Catherine Hook is giving us as Piper in this scene is a whole ass crisis of something. And I don't know what it is or what it means. Like, she gets to the what the fuck? She starts with, like, she has her eyes closed. As Laki is saying this, her eyes jut open. You can see the gears turning as she's figuring out, like, what do I possibly say to this? Her first response is to scoff and to kind of grasp at something and to project like she's above it. Like, he doesn't know what I do. Right. That is her first response. When she finally does respond, then she tries to kind of quiet down. Then she sits up, agitated, asking, how the hell would this even come up? And that's where Locke tells her, oh, actually, no, it was a compliment. He was actually saying, you're so hot. So it's weird that you've never had sex before. Very normal. Cool family. This is where you get the mouth. What the fuck? Piper gets frustrated and weirded out. She tries to settle down again. And that's when Locke prompts her, in a very Saxon way, to ask, well, is it true? And that's when she bolts off. And so it's like there's so much happening here between them and so much specifically in what Piper is kind of Carrying on her face internally in this scene, I would be shocked if there's not something behind it. And it may not be the kind of thing we ever get into, but it's hinting at a very rich sibling history. And I pray not incestuous sibling history. But at this point, God knows.

[Joanna Robinson]

We talked earlier about Rick being a character that I see as, like, having a choice to make. Lachlan is even more identified as someone who has, like, they have explicitly said it. I have a big choice to make between Duke and Unc. But, like, between which side, which sibling am I more going to lie myself with? Which side am I going to more identify with? Am I going to go with Piper, who I think we all agree, at least you and I agree is the more palatable option here. Right?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Saxon is like if a shit eating grin was a person. So, yeah, like the. The bar is pretty low.

[Joanna Robinson]

It feels like Schwarzenegger, who's. Again, they're all doing a great job.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Schwarzenegger has more teeth than a human usually does in his mouth.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's like a shark.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Very sharky. Or is he going to align himself with Saxon? And again, to go back to that whole, like, people often end up disappointing us. On White Lotus, I am fully braced for Lachlan to disappoint me and, you know, just sort of embrace the. The. You gotta build up your muscles and hunt chicks and live your life that way. Success, pussy, et cetera. That's. That's the life path for you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, at minimum, Locke is a little freak who wants to stare at his brother's ass and ask her sister about her sexual up, like, sexual escapades. Like, he's not. It's not great. The early.

[Joanna Robinson]

I should not infantilize. Locked. You're right. He is. He's. He's doing some stuff. All right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can I. Can I say one thing? Is accent's defense.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just one, one quick note.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hold on, hold on. Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, we laughed at the time about this when the rooming arrangements were being proposed. And he said something, something to the effect of like, you can't do that when you have fully grown genitals.

[Joanna Robinson]

It is what he says. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Knowing everything that we think we know now or suspect now about the Ratliffs, maybe he was right. These three people need three separate rooms and need their fully grown genitals very far away from each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a very luxurious front room with many couches. Someone should be sleeping on the couch.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

In an ordinary family, I would say this is not an issue in this family. Let's just separate sleeping quarters. Seems like a great idea.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sleeping nude with your brother in the room is deranged behavior. Just truly deranged behavior.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, but like enjoying yourself to porn in the other in a room that is like barely insulated is also deranged behavior. Nothing but deranged behavior from Saxon. Here's something we should say. Let's. Let's run down. So we've got like to. To reiterate our threats, our potential threats.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Monkeys always question mark. The Hollinger bodyguards have guns. Something think about, you know, gun involved in the. In the robbery, etc. Tsunami watch. Where are you on tsunami watch?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Lachlan's openly talking about a girl who thought a tsunami was coming at the end of this episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a true story. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Makes sense. Tracks certainly. Ominous as hell.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was like a 12. A 10 year old girl who, like saved a bunch of people because she studied tsunamis in her geography class. And actually, probably you're not taking a geography class in when you're 10, but maybe her class section on geography. Okay. Or probably, possibly geology. Okay, Monica. Our list of Monica 10 year olds.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are taking geology classes.

[Joanna Robinson]

You might have a geology unit in like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, sure, here's an ignorance. Yeah, let's hammer these things out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's some talc.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, why not? I love. I love a talc exploration. Okay. The poisonous tree, the pong pong tree, which is what this tree is, which is related to oleander, as in white oleander, as in a movie about poisoning someone. The suicide tree is what is called the suicide suicide tree. Like, genuinely, if you go to Wikipedia right now and look up this tree at the top, top lines, it's not like buried deep. And some people call it. No, no, right at the top, it's like a.k.a. the Suicide Tree.

[Rob Mahoney]

But shout out to big tree for trying to get it rebranded as pong pong. Like, it's just a soft, softer, gentler situation.

[Joanna Robinson]

A real soft launch for the pong pong tree. But our listener Monica pointed out and I went back and rewatched it, and she's correct that Lachlan was out of earshot and not paying attention during Pam's.

[Rob Mahoney]

Lecture about poison fruit, him being out of earshot, and also Saxon trying to get him in on the protein smoothie game. That's a tough contest.

[Joanna Robinson]

What could go better in a smoothie.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Than poisonous fruit. We all love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Than the suicide tree.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let me get some local delicacies.

[Joanna Robinson]

The punk. Punk tree. So those are all just things to think about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

As we think about Willows. Anything else that we haven't talked about, want to mention? We did have a listener. I will say. A listener. Nisha wrote in about complicated money laundering, the one MDB scandal and how it might relate to the Ratliffs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Show Kel scandal. Okay, here's something I'll say. Okay, this, this is. This is. I have. I have a stick of my ass about this. The reaction I'm seeing to the three blondes, the blondies, is people saying, like, they're the worst. They're the worst. I would never be around them. They're the worst people. Rob thinks Rick is a contract killer. Whether or not we will find out. Greg literally killed, got Tanya killed in season two indirectly, but I'm still blaming him. And Tim Ratliff is a fucking bamboozler on a massive scale that has surely impacted people who don't have disposable income to be impacted by whatever grift that he has been doing. So the. The women who are kind of mean about each other, behind each other's backs.

[Rob Mahoney]

That'S the worst you got. Guys, it's 2025. You need to dream bigger. Like, people are worse than that. I'm sorry, I just.

[Joanna Robinson]

It just. It bothers. It's like the different standard that people are held to, and I'm just sort of like Tim Rattlet. Keep your eye on Tim Ratliff. I've. I am like, feeling for him on a certain level because Jason Isaacs is really good at what he does. So he is like, panic is quite intriguing to me. But he is a fucking, like, shitty, rich, criminal asshole. The kind of grifter that in 2025 we should be very much have our eye on. So, you know, just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's where the blondies are. Not a monolith, though, because Kate seems like a tough hang. I'm going to be honest with you.

[Joanna Robinson]

You want to hear about beans?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do want to hear about the beans, but I might be shooting my friends a look as she's talking about the beans in the way that she and Laurie are shooting each other's shooting each other looks. Lori and Jacqueline seem like pretty good company as far as these things go. Like, if you are power ranking the current White Lotus guests based on who I would want to be in a social situation with, I think Chelsea is probably number one with a bullet. Like, she seems like a delight.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pornchise seems pretty cool. Like, I would hang out with him. Like, I'll throw a mook into that category again. Guy talk. Not my speed, per se. The rat lists are generally out.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a no. Piper, maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, even her I'm a little skeptical of. I think we're gonna see some different layers of Piper throughout this season. I don't disagree, but once you get beyond that group. Actually, Belinda seems like a great hang, too. Yeah, I think you're getting into Laurie and Jacqueline territory pretty quickly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lori Mallory was telling me she was just on a trip, and it was like she sent me a photo, like, a vacation photo of her and her two other friends. They're all brunette. She said the brunette. The brown blob or the brunette blob or something like that. And I was like. I was like, which one are you? And I was like, oh, wait, no, of course. You're. You're Jacqueline Lemon, you know, on camera star. She's like, I hope I'm Laurie. I'm like, we all hope we're Lori. We all really hope we're Lori. But, like, what are we going to do?

[Rob Mahoney]

But also, do we. Laurie's also having a tough time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Laurie just seems like she enjoys a Sauvignon Blanc, as do I, and so I support her in all of her endeavors.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, sweet, sweet mercy. That is White Lotus. That is Mike White that we get the name of Laurie's daughter in this episode, so I do not have to endure the dumbest theory, with all due respect to anyone who is pushing it, of White Lotus, the idea that season two's Portia was somehow Laurie's daughter, based on the fact that, I guess they're both blonde. That was as far as the evidence.

[Joanna Robinson]

Seemed to go, because both of them have wavy hair that gets a bit frazzled in humidity. It seems to be, like, the main connection.

[Rob Mahoney]

Anyway, they're the only two people who have that. Like, no. No one else curses out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Definitely not me. Listen, Laurie is not Portia's mom. No, I just think that that's so clear. They. They talk about her as, like, a young girl. There's. There's also this theory that this is a prequel season. I just think that that is, like, Belinda recognizes Greg. Like, that is just not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, but we should say, doesn't put it all together yet. Like, she seems to recognize him, but doesn't necessarily know who he is.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's like, I know. I know that guy, but from where? That's weird, right? So, like, it's not a. This is not a prequel season. Laurie is not Portia's mom. If she is, we will apologize, but I just really don't think that's the case. But you know what? There's room for all kinds of wild theories, because sometimes your wild theory is correct and sometimes it is a monkey with a gun. So monkeyshoot. Gmail.com is where you can reach us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks to Justin Sales for his tireless work on this very crowded feed that we have going on right now. Thanks to John Richter for his incredible work on the video front to CT today. He's helping out on the video front. And to Donnie beach, who is our great producer, making sure we sound great on this episode. We will be back with severance in just a few days. Rob, what a time for us to be podcasting about great shows. And please do check out that David Lindelof conversation. We had a great time with Damon and he did weigh in on the Lakers Mavericks situation. And I did my best Rob Mahoney impression. Not a good one, but my best one. So there we go.

[Rob Mahoney]

NBA podcaster Joanna Robinson. We love to see it. We simply love to see it.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, we'll see you soon. Bye.