‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prestige TV Podcast – ‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Release Date: March 12, 2025
Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney

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Introduction

In this episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosted by Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney of The Ringer, the duo delves deep into Season 3, Episode 4 of HBO’s acclaimed series "The White Lotus," titled "Hide or Seek." The discussion encompasses character analyses, plot developments, listener theories, and anticipations for upcoming episodes, offering listeners comprehensive insights into the evolving narrative set against the backdrop of Bangkok.

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Detailed Analysis of 'The White Lotus' Season 3, Episode 4: "Hide or Seek"

Character Deep Dives

1. Guy Talk's Incompetence

   • Timestamp [04:20]
     Joanna poses a critical question about the episode's most significant mistake, spotlighting Guy Talk’s ongoing incompetence. Rob critiques Guy’s inability to "read the room," labeling him professionally as "the worst person at this job in the entire hotel."

     Rob Mahoney [04:45]: "Professionalism-wise, he might be the worst person at this job in the entire hotel... Very, very bad at his job."

2. Mook and Gaitak's Relationship Dynamics

   • Timestamp [05:07]
     The hosts explore the budding relationship between Mook and Gaitak, analyzing cultural courtship norms in Thailand and how their interactions fit into familiar Southeast Asian romantic archetypes.

     Rob Mahoney [05:13]: "Mook is reciprocating, flagging him down, pursuing him... falling into familiar modes."

3. Belinda's Transformation and Confidence

   • Timestamp [05:35]
     Discussing Belinda's increasing assertiveness, Joanna notes Lalisa's portrayal of an ambitious woman seeking a better life, raising concerns about potential conflicts stemming from Belinda's desire to prove herself.

     Joanna Robinson [06:44]: "She wants a bigger life, wants to leave, wants to travel... rooting for Guy Talk."

4. Tim and Rick's Complex Backstories

   • Timestamp [33:18]
     The conversation shifts to Tim and his enigmatic father Rick, examining how Tim's internal struggles and Rick's mysterious past influence the current storyline.

     Joanna Robinson [34:09]: "Is White Lotus a show where there are ever actually consequences for the wealthy?"

Plot Points and Theories

1. Gun Mishap and Its Implications

   • Timestamp [05:04]
     A pivotal moment involves Guy Talk leaving a gun out, leading to heightened tensions and potential threats among the guests. The hosts debate the ramifications of this action on the unfolding drama.

     Joanna Robinson [04:20]: "What was the worst mistake of the episode? Was it Guy Talk leaving the gun out?"

2. Potential Character Deaths and Theories

   • Timestamp [17:48]
     Listener theories speculate on possible character deaths, drawing parallels to previous seasons where peripheral characters met tragic ends without deep emotional ties.

     Rob Mahoney [19:15]: "Tim has the gun in his hands almost too early... he could be involved in some way."

3. Full Moon Party Anticipations

   • Timestamp [44:57]
     The upcoming Full Moon Party is a focal point of speculation, with hosts and listeners envisioning chaotic and transformative events that could lead to significant plot twists.

     Joanna Robinson [47:02]: "Ready for the bacchanalia to ensue next week."

4. Rick's Identity and Backstory

   • Timestamp [33:35]
     Delving into Rick's backstory, the hosts discuss the possibility of him shedding his constructed identity and confronting the truths about his lineage and past actions.

     Joanna Robinson [25:50]: "Will Rick face real consequences beyond his internal struggles?"

Listener Emails and Theories

1. British Men Circumcised Query

   • Timestamp [11:58]
     An email from a listener named David inquires about British men’s circumcision trends, leading to a humorous exchange about the accuracy of such claims.

     Joanna Robinson [12:24]: "British men are almost always uncut. It's not his love, a gay man."

2. Lorazepam Insights

   • Timestamp [14:20]
     Discussions about Lorazepam usage among characters draw attention to its effects and withdrawal symptoms, reflecting on how it influences character behaviors and plot developments.

     Rob Mahoney [14:21]: "People have been sending us about lorazepam withdrawals..."

3. Book Misidentifications

   • Timestamp [53:27]
     A segment clarifies misconceptions about the books characters are reading, emphasizing Belinda’s choice of self-help literature as a reflection of her personal struggles.

     Joanna Robinson [53:52]: "Belinda reading 'Surrounded by Psychopaths'... exactly what we think Belinda might read after her whole Tanya experience."

4. Jim Thompson Inspiration

   • Timestamp [40:51]
     The hosts explore historical inspirations for characters, notably drawing parallels between Jim Hollinger and the mysterious disappearance of Thai silk magnate Jim Thompson.

     Joanna Robinson [42:17]: "Maybe Mike White is inspired by Jim Thompson's unsolved disappearance for Jim Hollinger’s backstory."

Season Pacing and Differences

• Timestamp [09:21]
  Joanna and Rob discuss the pacing of Season 3, addressing listener concerns about it being "boring" compared to previous seasons. They argue that the slower build-up is intentional, setting the stage for more explosive developments in later episodes.

  Rob Mahoney [09:21]: "I don't feel that it's measurably different... just kind of watching them pull each other apart."

Upcoming Episodes and Guest Stars

1. Oscar-Winning Guest Star Speculation

   • Timestamp [60:33]
     A hush-hush announcement from USA Today teases an Oscar-winning guest star joining in Episode 5. The hosts speculate on potential candidates, ranging from Eddie Redmayne to Mahershala Ali, discussing how their inclusion could shape the narrative.

     Rob Mahoney [67:17]: "I'm going to say Eddie Redmayne as a raver going full Burning man mode at the moon party."

2. Tanya Biopic Discussion

   • Timestamp [63:16]
     The potential development of a Tanya biopic is explored, with humorous suggestions for casting and the implications it might have on the overarching storyline.

     Rob Mahoney [63:53]: "Jennifer Tilly could really pull off the Coolidge element pretty effectively."

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Conclusion

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney provide an engaging and multifaceted analysis of "The White Lotus" Season 3, Episode 4, blending character studies with plot theories and listener interactions. Their insightful breakdowns, complemented by notable quotes and timestamps, offer both dedicated fans and newcomers a nuanced understanding of the episode's intricacies. As they anticipate future developments and potential guest appearances, the hosts maintain a balance of critical analysis and playful speculation, ensuring listeners remain hooked on both the podcast and the unfolding drama of "The White Lotus."

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Note: Advertisements, sponsor messages, and non-content segments from the transcript were deliberately omitted to focus solely on the substantive discussions pertaining to the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by Coffee Mate. I love a good crossover, especially when it's with a show you love. This time the crossover isn't with another character, but with Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has collaborated with HBO's the White Lotus to bring us two tropically inspired limited time only flavors, Pina Colada and Thai iced coffee flavored creamers. And as a coffee fanatic, I can't wait to try them. All right. Thai iced coffee in my coffee. Pina colada in coffee. I am adventurous when it comes to new flavors, but this sounds truly different. I'm picturing something tropical and refreshing, like a beachside cocktail, but with a coffee twist. Definitely curious to see how it all comes together. Let's try it. Mmm. The Thai iced coffee is amazing. It tastes like, like an authentic Thai iced coffee with that, you know, the condensed milk sweetness to it. I. I was very skeptical about the pina colada, but it's surprisingly delicious. The coconut and pineapple notes make it feel like a vacation in a cup. Perfect for sipping while watching the latest episode of HBO's original series, the White Lotus Coffee Mates. The White Lotus flavors are only available for a limited time, so try them now and stream HBO's original series on Max. This episode of the Prestige TV Podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and Pina Colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're here today to talk to you about season three, episode four of White Lotus, Hide or seek. There's a lot going on on the Prestige feed this week because you and I are doing three whole ass entire prestige episodes together this week. Rob, what are we covering?

[Rob Mahoney]

We are indeed. We're covering White Lotus. Obviously, that's why we're here today. We will be taping an episode of the Pit that we'll be dropping in the indeterminate future.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Rob Mahoney]

Covering through episode 11 cannot wait. We've been getting Joe, a lot of. A lot of people clamoring for our specific takes on the Pit on some of the big revelations of the recent episodes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

A lot going on in the ER to say the least. And of course, we're covering SEVERANCE Every week, all week. The emails are streaming in. They are increasingly unhinged. I'm loving every second of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

In addition, of course, Bill, Mallory and I are covering White Lotus on Sunday nights immediately after the episode ends. You can catch that on YouTube or on Spotify, or listen to it on a podcast app of your choice. A lot going on on the Prestige feed this week. In addition to Mallory and I are covering Yellowjackets, Daredevil, the Last of Us trailer, all that sort of stuff over in the house of our feed. So there's a lot happening.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you Joe up on Paradise?

[Joanna Robinson]

I have not watched a single second of Paradise.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what it was like, pulpy fun. And then one episode later in the season just kicks into high fucking gear.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it episode seven? Like, that's what I've heard.

[Rob Mahoney]

Episode seven really, really pulls it together in a fascinating way.

[Joanna Robinson]

You think I would like. You think I, Joanna, would like Paradise?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do. I do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Okay. I trust you because you were the one who was like, joanna, you're gonna hate Landman. And you were right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, well, there's fewer speeches about, like, Chinese lithium mines and how they're ruining the environment, so I think you're gonna be open to this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, fingers crossed for zero speeches about that. We could dare to. Um, this is maybe best served. Saved for the severance podcast. But I'll just say today we learned a thing. We did a little unboxing experiment on the severance pod on Friday, and I got some feedback that mostly what people saw was my laptop and not, like, the items themselves. So I have a lot to learn about unboxing. That was my first time. Thanks for bearing with, but if you wanted to watch me half unbox some severance stuff, we did that on the pod last week. Okay, quick opening question for you, Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

What was the worst mistake of the episode? Was it my guy. Guy talk, leaving the gun out, or was it Belinda, straight up, slow mo, mean, mugging a guy she knows?

[Rob Mahoney]

That was not great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did a murder. Which. Which, which are you picking the gun is bad. Yeah, but. But look, I've.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've been hard on guy talk. Yeah, I've been skeptical of his ability to read the room.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we're.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're gonna. We're gonna give him some grace today. Not in the professional sense, but at least in the personal sense. Professionally, he might be the worst person at this job in the entire hotel. Like, in terms of fulfilling his specific capacity. Very, very bad at his job.

[Joanna Robinson]

I can't defend it. I'm not inclined to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

However, personally. Yeah, where are you on Mook on Gaitak?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we just have to look at the facts of this episode, which is Mook is reciprocating, I would say, in a degree that is slightly different than in previous episodes. She is flagging him down. She is pursuing him, wanting him to come watch her dance. She is swinging by in her dancing outfit just to show it off a little bit. And I, you know, I will say her initial response to being asked out on the date, I read as like, oh, I'm not sure that she ever actually agreed to it before Gytok had to rush off. But it seems like later in the episode we have some confirmation that they are planning for a date.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so date, Come watch me dance. She looks so beautiful and cute in her dancing regalia. He just.

[Rob Mahoney]

The golden hour sunbeams behind her head like the whole scene is coming together. And I will say this. We got many, many great emails from people kind of walking us through some of the specifics of Thai courtship and the dating in this region of the world in general. Specifically one from Dilys that I really appreciated, where Dilys talked about kind of the archetypes of Thai and Southeast Southeast Asian cinema and tv and how Mook and Gaita kind of fall into those ideas. This gentle but persistent guy, this coy, sweet girl. And that based on that read, it does seem like they're kind of falling into those modes. They are sort of giving a very familiar presentation which might let Guy talk off the hook. As far as my previous concerns about how he would react if Mook wasn't as interested as he was. That said, on a show like White Lotus, the idea that we're getting a very familiar presentation potentially of a type of romance, does not make me feel great about their chances for these two crazy kids to end up together.

[Joanna Robinson]

The actors who play Mook and Gaitak were, you know, the. The pair they featured in the after episode interview on HBO this week. And Lalisa, who plays Mook, was talking about how ambitious she is, how she wants more, she wants a bigger life, she wants a better life, she wants to leave, she wants to travel. Guy talks like, happy to be incompetent at my job here at the White Lotus forever, you know, and so that has me a little concerned. Not that like he will rage out in any kind of way, but something Malice Mal has been talking about in the pod we do with Bill from the start is like her concern that he will try to prove himself to her in some way that might go bad. Or alternatively, she just simply won't. It's not the end of the world. But she simply won't pick him in the end because he's not what she's looking for. She's looking for someone, you know, some beefy bodyguard who can take her around the world. So I am, as ever, rooting for guy talk.

[Rob Mahoney]

I, even after the gun snafu of.

[Joanna Robinson]

This week, feel very disappointed in him that he left the gun out. But to go back to your point, golden hour. Mooc. Golden hour. Lilisa in the. With the flowers and the. I mean, who among us.

[Rob Mahoney]

The distraction is very understandable, but just, just put it back in the safe. Put it back in the back of the box. Seriously, the bare minimum. Carry it with you. I don't care.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so I have like a kind of a big picture question to start with. Here we are at the midway point of the season. I've been hearing. Interesting covering both Severance and White Lotus right now. I really feel like we're at this crux of people have forgotten to watch how to watch television week to week, you know, they sure have. And I feel like people misremember the cadence of previous seasons of White Lotus I and on Severance, that's a different thing. We could talk about on the Severance pod, but I feel like people are used to maybe watching Severance season one is a binge. And so sort of some of the, the peaks and valleys of the, of the plot and the rhythms are flummoxing people. But I've heard from plenty of people that they think this season of White Lotus is boring. Yeah, I think season four is sort of. We're ramping up. You know, we're headed towards a full moon party. Like, I think we're headed towards excitement. But I think. Do you think this season is measurably different from any of the previous seasons of White Lotus and, or, or just simply. And are you having a good time with it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I am having a good time with it. I don't feel that it's measurably different. To me, this show has always been some variety of this. A bunch of different character studies, kind of overlapping, kind of not various boiling points reaching their temperature over a handful of episodes. I don't really consider White Lotus to be a super plot heavy show, which is why the, the kind of dangling bait of the dead bodies is always like such a fun and silly part of it, because it's so clear what's happening there. But I'M never really waiting for White Lotus to explode. Maybe I'm waiting for some characters to bump up into each other in a different way. We've gotten all these hints about Tim and Rick, for example, how much they dislike each other, and at some point they're gonna collide. At least I would hope in a way that's kind of fun and interesting and I'm eager to see it. But I'm not. I'm not waiting for the next plot development in White Lotus, the show about a bunch of rich people at a luxury resort sitting around and pulling each other apart. Like, I'm. I'm just kind of watching them pull each other apart.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it always seems like we. I just, I remember this from previous seasons, that it's like, it's a character study show, right. It's a comedy of manners kind of show with the, like, a fake mustache on it that makes it a sort of mystery show. It's not really what it is, but it's like part of the. Part of the hook to get people watching. But. But it's always been this kind of slow burn. And I think if you go back and rewatch or reconsider previous seasons, you'll see similar things. That being said, if people aren't vibing this season, that's fine. That's your prerogative. I'm not here to change your mind. I just think it's, you know, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Would say two things too. In the defense of people who are feeling the pace at this point and feeling it as a bit of. More of a slow presentation. We've now gotten like three episodes in a row of Rick talking about going to Bangkok but not going to Bangkok.

[Joanna Robinson]

True.

[Rob Mahoney]

And we've gotten at least two episodes of people talking about the full moon party, but not actually being at the full moon party. And so there is a little bit more of a lead up in terms of some of those events that I'm hoping will really pay off when we get there. But there's been some. Some serious prelude for those things.

[Joanna Robinson]

That is completely fair. I want to do a quick section that I'm calling the well, actually section, which is just people sort of correcting or weighing in on things. And. And to be clear, I'm not saying I don't like these emails. If it's. If it's a. Well, actually email I don't like, I simply won't be reading it. But on this sort of like, is that Jason Isaacs in all of his natural splendor or not. We did get several Emails about this. Rob, this is not what we're here to do. We don't need to dwell on this. But I will just say no, I think we do.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because I woke up Monday morning, I just had a very normal one. Poured myself.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is not my fault, Rob. You know, this is not my fault.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying I woke up, poured myself a cup of coffee, opened the old prestige TV email box, and was met with a startling number of emails about whether British men are circumcised or not. Who am I to dispute people's area of expertise? But I'm just saying it's been a very normal one over here for the last couple days.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just want to read my favorite one, which simply reads this. You guys, ellipses. British men are almost always uncut. It's not his love comma. A gay man. So that's. That's how our listener signed his email. That's how I will read it out. I sent that evidence to our pal, Mallory Rubin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And her counter is that Jason Isaacs, the actor, is Jewish. So no matter what he might be, you know, circumcised. Anyway, that being said, Bill Simmons has told Mallory and me he has the straight dish on this, which he will be revealing on our episode five podcast. He hasn't told us yet. I don't know the answer, but Bill has. Has got it straight from the. Not the source, but like a source. And he knows. So the answer will come on the episode five. Instant reaction. What a tease.

[Rob Mahoney]

What a setup, Joe. That's why you're a pro. I will say this. Yeah. I have no idea whether it's real or not. It does seem like in this show, which is, no, not shy about male nudity, it has been almost exclusively prosthetics. And in fact, I was watching an interview with Steve Zahn where he was talking about his prosthetic junk for season one. What was interesting to me was not that it was a prosthetic. That's pretty common. It was that he was presented with the prosthetic by Mike White. To say, like, do you give the sign off on this prosthetic junk for yourself? So regardless if it is Jason Isaacs in all his glory or not, it is what he and many craftspeople believe.

[Joanna Robinson]

That Tim Ratliff looks like a Jason approved item. Okay. In regards to the dry Tim Ratliff, just dry neck and some pills, which perturbed me. We had several people write in a concerning amount of people perhaps to let us know that lorazepam is Sweet and will just dissolve on your tongue.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

David wrote, clearly, you've never been strung out on Ativan. It dissolves in your mouth without any taste at all. So thanks, David and all the other people who wrote in about this. Now we know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Look forward to our future video on the Prestige on the Ringer TV YouTube channel where we all take Lorazepam and just kind of just coast through it together.

[Joanna Robinson]

A Lorazapod. Is that what you want to do?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do want to do a Lorazapod. I think it'd make for great content.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that we should do the White Lotus finale as a Larazopod. I think that sounds delightful to me. All right. And then on. On the Larazepam front, we got a lot of emails about LaRazPam withdrawals and how nasty and sort of instantaneous they are and the fact that, you know, we were kind of joking a bit about, like, okay, we've got Laraza Pam Tim, or Laraza Tim, as some people are calling him on the Internet. Great stuff. Love that for us as TV consumers, Vicky, Lorazepam withdrawal. Vicki, what's going to happen there? I don't think that Mike White is intent on giving us, like, a harrowing, no tease episode of White Lotus, but I will just list some early withdrawal symptoms of larasvam, a highly addictive drug that you should never go cold turkey on. This has been your psa. Increased anxiety, irritability, insomnia, sweating, tremors. That's all stuff that I feel like because we're only. That's like one to three days. We're only at the White Lotus for, like, three more days. So I feel like all of that is something that Parker Posey is completely capable of giving us without, like, us sending us down into a dark, dark spiral of something. So very much so.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the anxiety is already high. For Victoria, the. On this. On the sweat front, it's going to take some work to out sweat Goggins in this episode, who is just moist, perpetually moist. But she could potentially catch up, you know, if she goes into some shutters and sweating here. Yeah, I could really see it for her. Regardless, look, our girl needs. Needs help getting through, like, two conversations on the yacht. Yeah, she's going to come crashing back down to earth real fast.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I mean, I want to talk about that a little bit later, a little bit more. But there's a difference between what they are exposed to on the yacht and the sort of, like, I'm just eating melon all day. Vibes of her existence at the White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, quite.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, you know, so I think that, like, it will be. There was way less friction for her waiting back at the resort in terms of social anxiety and that sort of stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

But she was already popping lorazepam at.

[Joanna Robinson]

The resort, eating the melon just to get her massage.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what I'm saying. Just to take the edge off. To take the edge off.

[Joanna Robinson]

I can't believe she made it through that yacht ride. I. I was feeling for her. I like there are some looks that Parker Posey gives this episode that are just like, instant meme, like, worthy. Like, move over, Leslie Bibb Squid smile face. Some of these Parker Posey faces are making their rounds.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, like, the cringe as she's watching these guys and their younger Thai girlfriends from across the boat is wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then, like, kind of trying to settle her face and be like, this is fine. I do that. That's what my face does. I've been told quite often.

[Rob Mahoney]

I also love the reaction to the reaction she prompts. The one Australian guy, if he and his girlfriend are married, and he sighs so hard, I thought he might pass out. Like, he was just the mere question being posed, not appreciative of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you want to do a little, like, killing theory roundup? We got the tenor of the emails right now around sort of like, who could have died? Who did the killing? Who is dead at the end of the season are the exact kind that I like where they're going back to previous seasons and they're like, let's look at what you. Here's the theory, Lotus. What kind of stories Mike White interested in telling us? Not like some wild cockamamie, I think a monkey got a gun. That's a me theory.

[Rob Mahoney]

But like I said, please email [e-mail] a very. A very normal email address or prestige.

[Joanna Robinson]

TV Spotify.com either way. But like, but like, what story could Mike White weave for us with any of these given deaths? And here are, like, a couple chief things that people wanted us to remember. Okay, Don, our listener Don and a couple people. But like, his. His email chiefly was talking about the way that our spoilers for previous seasons of White Lotus, Armand, who dies in season one, and Tanya, who dies in season two, were characters who did not have close emotional ties to anyone else on the show. Certainly Greg Gary did not give a shit about Tanya. And even Portia was, like, not invested. Armand's like, co workers, like, liked him. But we didn't explore any of those relationships too closely. And so the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, we explored some of them quite closely, but maybe not in that exact way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Just because you go asked a mouth doesn't mean that you are like, you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Know, kind of intimacy, I gotta say.

[Joanna Robinson]

So the fact that the seasons don't end with, like, this plaintive mourning from any of our other characters. Right. So if a Ratliff dies, then we have to grapple with the rest of the Ratliff family mourning. If Rick or Chelsea dies, that would be devastating to either Rick or Chelsea, I believe. If one of the fancies dies, I think that would be like, maybe a little bit, perhaps. So on the one hand, Mike Wait has said this season might be a bit darker than other seasons, so it's possible that he's going to zag in that direction. On the other hand, I think that is a useful thing to sort of keep in mind is like, how, you know, usually when we, like, go to the airport and sort of see all of our characters, how they're existing after this vacation at the airport, it's not anyone sort of like dressed in black, grief sobbing. That's not how we end a season of White Lotus, usually. So that's something to think about, you know, Definitely.

[Rob Mahoney]

So. And I would say as an offshoot of that, maybe the variation for this season is not taking someone who has no ties, but taking someone who has them sever them, and then they become vulnerable in their way. Right. Like, if the truth about what Tim has done gets out all of a sudden, those familial ties aren't as strong as they once were. And I think all of the rat lifts would be spiraling out of control. I don't think Tim is the dead body. I think he has the gun in his hands almost too early in the story for him to actually be the one who ends up dead. But he could be involved in some way. It's like you can start to triangulate the way these things might connect. Right. Tim has the gun. Guy Talk's potentially trying to get it back. We see this very lingering shot of a security camera early in the episode, where I would imagine Guytok is able to piece together the fact that Tim has the gun in the first place. You also have Belinda, who is jumpy at everything in a way that could keep her alive if Greg's Googling turns into ill intentions turns into him coming after her. And so you can see all these people getting increasingly antsy. And obviously there's the gun in the middle of the room now. That's going to change the dynamics of a lot of this stuff, but I have no idea which way it's going to be pointing. At the end of the day, other than I feel good that Chelsea will not die. She's almost been in too much danger too fast. I don't believe the final destination of what she's proposing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I don't think Tim is going to die. But other than that, I'm open to most permutations.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some of the listeners are suggesting because of this idea of, like, who will we not be? Sort of like. I mean, actually, I was quite devastated that Armand died, but who will we not be? Like a great character.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not a great guy, but a great character.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. A delight, honestly. Okay, but who will we not be devastated by? And so, you know, some people are like, well, is it going to be Greg? Greg, Gary? Like, could we possibly be so lucky? And I saw an interview that Jennifer Coolidge gave Variety where she said, quote, I hope they do something terrible to him. So shout out Tanya now and forever. But there is this, like, theory floating around that I think is interesting where, where follow me down this domino path. Belinda finally decides. She's like, that guy did a murder. And she. I don't know how one calls Interpol, but she calls Interpol. And Interpol shows up, you know, guns drawn or whatever, to capture great Gary. But Tim thinks it's the authorities there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who are there to get him. Oh, okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rick perhaps thinks it's the authorities following up on whatever it is that goes down in Bangkok. So, like, hence monkeyshootout gmail.com like every. Everyone thinks the. The guns are there for them, but, you know, and then, and then panic and chaos ensues. So I like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I don't know how Belinda's gonna get Interpol on the horn.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. Monkeyshootmail.com if you work for Interpol, if.

[Rob Mahoney]

You work for Interpol, please hit us up. I would love to know mechanically how this works. I was actually thinking about it. Like, once she finds out that Greg Gehry is the guy she thinks that he is, is a murderer, what do you do if you're in Belinda's position, right? Do you go to the hotel staff? Do you call the Thai police? Do you call the American authorities? Especially because he's at least an expat, probably still an American citizen. Do you need to work out Italian extradition laws before you even start going to anybody?

[Joanna Robinson]

I was, I mentioned this, I think, on the pod with Bill and Mel, but I was looking up, like, Thai extradition laws mostly because I was like, why do all these guys feel like they're safe here? Like, you know, what's extradition like in. In Thailand? Turns out it's not. It's not as free and breezy as I thought it would be. It's not. It's not the. The. The crime shelter that I thought it might be.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, but they're just there for the anonymity of all the other bald guys. It's just that you can't pick them.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lineup blend. You really blends, you know. Okay, so here's the question, though, for Tim. You mentioned sort of. Okay, so, like, the noose. The noose is tightening on Tim. We're downing the Lorazepams. Jason Isaac, on the official podcast, podcast, gave this great interview where he was talking about how, you know, on this theme of identity that we've been talking about all season, how, like, Tim is being stripped of all of the things that he identified as, like, provider, father, pillar of community, good businessman, you know, you know, a literal boy scout, the son of these. Of this lineage, you know, a man of notoriety at the club. All these things that he has sort of like club, not the club. The people at the club think all these things that he had defined himself as. He's being stripped away. But is White Lotus a show where there are ever actually consequences for the wealthy, or are they inoculated somehow? And so will we come out the other side of this vacation? Tim is so convinced right now, here in episode four, they're gonna lose the house. They're gonna. He's gonna go to jail for a little time, like all this other stuff like that. They're gonna be poor. None of his kids are equipped to live this life like he has not prepared them for this. His wife is not equipped to live this life like he has failed entirely. Would it make sense on a White Lotus show for this actually to not happen to Tim, for there to be no actual consequences for him at the end of the day other than this dark week of the soul that he is experiencing in Thailand?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, I think it would make total sense. And I. I see there's two variations of that. One is a very internal dark week of the soul, where it is him going through all these possibilities, spiraling out of control, freaking out, and then the air is taken out of the balloon, and actually it's all going to be fine. Got, you know, you know, his lawyer cut a deal. Something happened. Kenny Wynn is found liable for this, that, and the other and all of a sudden, Tim's off the hook. Off the hook. Or we had an emailer, Tim, reach out to us a couple episodes ago, honestly, about the possibility of Tim being out of touch with his phone. And we see him go back to the phone, despite Pam's objections in this episode. Back to the phone today. But what if he spirals out of control, his family finds out the truth from him or from some other means? He has to deal with all the personal consequences of this. Maybe there's even some horrible outcome he can't take back, or the family is irreverent, or the family is irrevocably broken. And then he gets back on his phone and, oh, yeah, now everything is actually fine. And so it's not so much that real consequences come for people, this kind of privilege, but the real is, like, the most real damage that they can do is the damage that they do to themselves.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's interesting because, you know, one of our listeners, Peter, and wrote in about this idea of a winner of a season of a White Lotus season. And this is like a way in which our beloved boss, Bill Simmons, likes to talk about stories. And usually that's not how I like to think about it, but I think it is interesting that, you know, this listener brought up the fact that, like, Mike White loves a reality show. Yes. Was on Survivor, went quite far on Survivor, did the Amazing Race a couple times. We've talked before about how this is like, sort of like a thinly. Thinly sheened version of Survivor. He always puts Survivor players in every season and stuff like that. So, like, you know, is he thinking about his show as some. As a. As a story that has winners and losers? And I think your mileage may, you know, like, this listener, Peter, wrote in with who he thought won individual seasons. And I'm actually not sure I agree with all of his takes. But, like, I think your definition of winning may vary at the end of the day, but one thing that I always consider losing on a season of White Lotus, and we talked about this a little bit last week, is this idea of, like, the character that I'm rooting for to break free out of something, and then they just don't. And they just sort of like, melt back into the world of privilege that, you know, that we are sort of like you or. Or do not break the cycle. So I'll. I bring this up all the time, but I'll be in season two who I was like, you're not like your dad or grandpa. And then at the end of the season, he's at the airport ogling women just like his dad and his grandpa or Rachel and Shane in season one. And so, like, the person that I most have my eye on for this is someone like. And we talked about this before, but someone like Piper who is like, I'm not like my family. I'm not like my family. And inside of this episode, Vicki says to her, you're just as judgmental as I am. Like, you're just.

[Rob Mahoney]

She's very, very right, if not more judgmental.

[Joanna Robinson]

Honestly, I thought. I think that's really interesting. So, like, Piper is someone who won't be able to, like, go to the monastery and live a different life than. Than her family has sort of plan for her. Yeah, but. And we got. We got, you know, another, you know, word of encouragement from Amrita about Rick, that Rick is someone who I'm hoping. Though usually when I hope, I get disappointed, but Rick is someone who I'm hoping can. You know, you are. You. You are not. Your story. Right. You. You can break out of this karmic cycle and. And. And find something new for yourself. I just think that's. I don't know. Piper. I have no confidence in her, and I do apologize to her for that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I don't think it's gonna go great, honestly. It's a little thing, and maybe it's truthful, and we just haven't been given the full picture of what's going on there. You're referring to what I think we understand to be a temple or a monastery as a meditation center, I thought was kind of a telling little detail. It's like, for her, this is a very specific, very westernized, very sanitized kind of idea of what she's walking into.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I think she's going to be in for a lot more than that if she actually does end up there in any capacity at all. Ultimately, I think she's going to walk to the edge and blanch. I think that's probably what the future of that character holds.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what it feels like, if previous seasons are any indication. I'm always, like, wondering if Mike White's going to zag. And he'd be like, oh, you think you know what White Lotus is? You have no idea.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love. I love a zag. And Mike White is as adept with those zags as anybody. Like, in subverting our expectations.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's a zaggy.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is a zaggy. I don't like that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't either. But we're going to keep it in the pod. But we're never going to. You're never going to say it again. Okay? This episode is brought to you by Focus Features. Presenting Black Bag. Starring Cate Blanchett, Michael Fassbender and directed by Steven Soderbergh. This electrifying new film brings together two legendary spies joined in a marriage of love and deception. When they begin to suspect each other. Betrayal. A dangerous game begins. Who is the traitor and who will survive? Smart, sexy and surprising. It will keep you guessing till the very end. Black Bag. Rated R under 17. Not admitted without parent. Only in theaters Friday with special engagements in Dolby.

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[Rob Mahoney]

Though, like, I'm glad you brought them. Read a bit as far as you know him letting go of his story because as soon as she said that and then we get deeper into the episode and find out the extent of what Rick's story really is, which is a story that his mom told him about his dad, who is just the kindest, gentlest soul who has ever lived.

[Joanna Robinson]

A do gooder.

[Rob Mahoney]

A do good. A straight Robin Hood type out here working for the good of the people who was murdered in cold blood and definitely never did anything wrong. And also definitely is not Hollinger himself. Yeah, I feel like when Amrita is telling him that he can let go of his story, it's as much telling him he can let go of that story and not just this creation of who he is and his identity, but the only thing he really knows about himself and this formative gem that he has now created. Everything that we know Rick to be from is something that his mom told him on her deathbed that just, I'm gonna say, does not seem to be very true.

[Joanna Robinson]

Definitely not true. And also that idea that, like, okay, so there's two things. You know, when we're watching middle aged men with daddy issues and stories, there's like two things.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're gonna need to be more specific. There's a lot of that going around.

[Joanna Robinson]

All of it. That there's, there's the energy of my father is a criminal, and so I'm a, you know, okay to take our guy Walton Goggins Justified, which is just a show rife with daddy issues. You've got Raylan Givens, a character unjustified who is a U.S. marshal and his father is a criminal. And this whole, like, the, the shadow that his father casts over him on that show and, and the struggle that he has with, like, I'm an upstanding law, but I've got this rage and this darkness inside of me that I think comes from my dad or whatever.

[Rob Mahoney]

But he's, but he's a zaggy at the end of the day.

[Joanna Robinson]

You said we weren't gonna. Okay. And then you've got Boy Crowder, who's. Whose daddy was also a criminal.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sorry.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's daddy. His daddy was also.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pronounce it correctly.

[Joanna Robinson]

But. But he has chosen a life of crime. And that's, that's just the show and it's the best. But for Rick, it's like, okay, I live in shame because my father was good and I am. Can't go to Australia for some reason, I'm something of a. Of a scoundrel.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so the, like, how freeing would it be to not live under the weight of this, like, fictional saint who you think was your father and you have failed to live up to the Vader comp. I just wanted. I mean, you and I were in on the Vader theory.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can't believe we're here, though. I can't believe this is what seems to be happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I, I think. I think you and I agree that Jim Hollinger is probably Rick's dad. And I just want. I just want to bust a theory.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. One that I've seen go on Reddit and it reminds me of a conversation we had on Friday about severe difference. I really need people to like, have a better understanding of how old people are because a lot of people are like, could Greg Gary be Rick's dad? John Grace is 67 and Walt Goggins is 53. So I just need you guys all to like, remember that. Technically, technically, 14 year old dad. I don't know. Anyway, yeah, they're.

[Rob Mahoney]

Chill, please chill.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're of the same generation. And like I. People, I think are really desperate to understand why Greg Gary is here in such close proximity to a white Lotus. And so they're spinning all these theories about how he was involved somehow in the land deal with the Hollanders and stuff like that. I don't know that I agree with that because I feel like if he had done all that, though he was part of the Land Management Bureau, but if he had done all that, would he need Tanya's money? Like, wouldn't he have money? So I don't actually think that Greg Gary is connected to any of that personally. But above all else, I do not believe that these two men who are quite close in age are father and son.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, associate makes more sense to the extent that they're connected at all. But I'm not, I'm just not sure that Greg and Rick are going to have any overt connection in quite that sort of way other than being at the same place at the same time. And as you said, maybe if the authorities get involved. They both think they're being chased in some capacity. I can see that sort of connection. I can see them bumping up against each other in all sorts of ways.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And frankly, I'm a little disappointed we didn't get a little more yacht interaction between those two because Greg was just sequestered on the top deck.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rick also very much not wanting to talk to anyone.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also very true. Two, two true lone wolves on the yacht. Never the twain shall meet.

[Joanna Robinson]

One has a Chelsea and one has a Chloe. And those are two different things entirely.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will say, I know Piper got the title in this episode, but Sourpuss Sad Sack Shithead is really Rick's title to lose. Like, he is wearing the crown in this episode and Chelsea is over it. And I think rightly over it.

[Joanna Robinson]

A reason I don't think that Rick is inside of the Greg Gary story necessarily is because Greg Gary is currently hunting Belinda and Saxon. You know, like, he's got like multiple people that he's sort of like predatorily staring at at dinner.

[Rob Mahoney]

So there's levels to this. Murder charges before girlfriends. I think that is his order of operations. He's got bigger priorities to fry.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just shifted, like.

[Rob Mahoney]

But he is furiously Googling. You know, this is. There's a lot of great Googling going on in this episode. It's just, you know, Belinda and Greg Gary both connecting dots, trying to pull it all together. The Internet is a magical place. Now why couldn't he have done that Googling while he was on the yacht sitting there by himself? There's no WI fi on that thing. Is the reception that bad? I can't say I've been in the middle of the ocean on a yacht all that often. I imagine it's not great, but if you're on a three story yacht of.

[Joanna Robinson]

That size, that thing has to have some sort of satellite.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's no connection whatsoever.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've been on any. I think that's true. I don't think any. Any boat I've ever been on would qualify as a yacht. So I don't think.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you a woman of the sea, Joe?

[Joanna Robinson]

No. Well, okay, yes and no. I love the ocean. It's like my favorite thing in the whole world. I get tremendously seasick. So a woman of the beach. Yeah, A woman of the cliffs. I love to look out at the rocky cliffs. Yeah. Like great Northern California. Like angry ocean. Love that. Don't want to be on it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was thinking more like Portrait of a lady on Fire. Sprint to the edge and come to a dead Stop dramatically at the last.

[Joanna Robinson]

Moment, you know, Or Victoria Ratliff just sort of waving in with a duvet. Who's to say? We'll come back to Vicki's little ocean walk in a second. But on the Jim Hollinger front, we got a really interesting email that sent me a googling from listener Gower. This is what I'm calling the historical comp section. He. He said, quote, when I hear Jim Hollinger, I keep hearing to myself, jim Thompson. I've been to Thailand and Bangkok many times and have visited the Jim Thompson house. I've also been to Co Samui on a day boat trip. So I'm fascinated with it all. I figured one white imperialist gym is as good as any other gym. Of course, I know nothing about Thompson and too lazy to do the work. Maybe there's something there you might elucidate us on. Or maybe it's nothing. Just a thought. I did Google Jim Thompson because I had never heard of this before person. Okay, okay, here's. Here's a life goal. Perhaps it's one thing to have a Wikipedia page about yourself, right? The Rob Mahoney Wikipedia page. What if Rob, is that a goal?

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that. Is that what we want? I don't think it's. I don't think it's. I don't think.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't have one. I don't. I don't need one. But like, but you're a New York.

[Rob Mahoney]

Times bestselling author, Joanna Robinson, but your NBA podcaster. These things are not the same.

[Joanna Robinson]

But what if Rob Mahoney death had its own special page, not just a section, its own breakout, its own actual page.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

And this is the legacy of Jim Thompson, who was a sort of Thai silk magnet who sort of made big splashes inside of the industry, probably through shady business work in Thailand, was connected to a lot of famous people and a lot of government officials. And then he straight up disappeared and nobody, and to this day, they have not solved his death. And there's all these theories about what happened, the disappearance of Jim Thompson. And so, you know, was he murdered by the government? Was he. Did he disappear himself because he was embroiled in something and. And wanted to vanish? All these. All these things I read all these articles about. There have been documentaries about what happened to Jim Thompson. Um, and the truth is they don't know. And probably he just like fell down somewhere and they never fell as found his body. He went out for a walk and he never came back.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so those rocky cliffs are perilous so you really got to be careful out there.

[Joanna Robinson]

The prevailing theory is that he fell over and then they just never found it. It just got swallowed by Thailand itself. And that's poetic in its own sense. But I kind of like this idea that, you know, sort of this infamous unsolved mystery of Thailand is something that might inspire Mike White to do the Jim Hollinger as a disappeared version of Rick's dad sort of story. I think that's really interesting. So.

[Rob Mahoney]

And especially as a template, as we're seeing now, for what Tim is going through and the sort of, like, self disappearance he's at least considering in multiple ways. Right. It's not just him getting the gun, but him kind of talking out loud in his conversations with Gary. With Greg. Greg Garry. Right. Why I keep wanting to do Glengarry Gary.

[Joanna Robinson]

Glen Ross. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just sort of talking aloud in his conversations with Greg. Gary about like, the hiding and seeking and kind of like the do you like it here? Question even feels kind of pointed in a way where it's like he's at least kicking the tires and exploring his options. As far as, like, what happens if I have to stay here?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. It's. It's. To me, it's giving, like, people wanting to play in the DB Cooper space. Right. What is this unsolved mystery and how can I wrap it into sort of the story that I'm telling?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Elsewhere on the historical comm section, our listener Rachel wrote in about a North Carolina. North Carolina Ponzi scheme.

[Rob Mahoney]

North Carolinian, I think. Right. I was. My hand was hit pretty hard after I believe I said North Carolinian on an early episode of this Caroline. We're going to say North Carolinian.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

No disrespect to the Carolinians of all varieties.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just really like the way that. That Jason Isaac says North Carolina. I don't know if it's accurate. That's for everyone else, I would say.

[Rob Mahoney]

With all the accent work being done on this show, this isn't. This is just the native accent, I think. But Pam's. Oh, no. When Tim comes to retrieve his phone is just a delight. And I've just been saying aloud to myself ever since I finished the episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pam is Pam before Laraza. Pam. That's what I have to say. I love Pam. She's the best. We did get an email from listener who's like, why haven't you commented on how many Aussies there are on the show? And I'm just like, geographically, it just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Kind of makes sense.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also, I just Having done like a smidge of backpacking around the world, I will say Aussies are like the most well traveled people I've ever met. And so I just always expect to find Aussies wherever I go in the world and they're the best. But Rachel wrote in to let us know that there was a guy and probably named Rick Siski who operated a sort of the most infamous North Carolina Carolinian Ponzi scheme and house repossessed all that sort of stuff and did in fact kill himself rather than face the consequences of his own actions. So anything you want to say about the full. The looming full moon party? We get this incredible closing shot of the boat headed towards the massive full moon. We get a really cool remix, it's called the full moon remix of the theme song you can find on YouTube. Really vibey. Anything you want to say about this or what you're hoping from it or anything you've learned about it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a little disappointed that we're only getting, it seems like age appropriate partiers going to the full moon party. I was really hoping that, you know, like a Gary or Rick or even like, like Fabian would show up at the party. Like somebody who you wouldn't expect beyond just like the Saxon, Lachlan, Chloe, like Chelsea, like those are, those are people I can see going to a party like this. I wanted to see some fish out of water and I'm, I'm a little bummed that it seems we may not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Get that now that you've dangled the prospect of Fabian at the foam. That's what I'm saying. I'm just gutted, genuinely. I will say this. Monkeyshootout gmail.com and pressytvspotify.com those inboxes have been full of people's experience going to Thailand. Some of these things, Rob and I will say need not be shared with us and. But you guys sure have felt fine about sharing them. But oh, some other things are just like fun travelog experiences and we got memos from a lot of people who've been to the full moon party and just talked about like how bonkers and bananas it is and how fun it is and just like neon painted people and mushroom smoothies and like all this sort of stuff like that. So I'm ready for the bacchanalia to ensue next week. Speaking of bucking, you want to talk about the. How would you, Rob Mahoney respond? Were you surrounded by children with super soakers in the streets of. Of Thailand?

[Rob Mahoney]

Enthusiastically, joyously. I Think I would commandeer a super soaker and jump into the. Jump into the party. That's. That seems like what I would be wanting to do. But the fancies are after a very, very specific, very, very, very, very narrow definition of fun and very, I think, performative definition of fun. If we're taking it from Jacqueline's perspective, especially right. That responding as if they are in an active war zone strikes me as a little bit disproportionate to the small streams of water they are being sprayed with.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wrote down travelers who hate actually while traveling about them. You know what I mean? That's just sort of like they do not actually want any kind of experience.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they lay it out pretty cleanly. What they want is to go sit by a slightly different pool with a slightly different vibe. And they.

[Joanna Robinson]

Then they did. And they didn't want that because, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

The olds were there.

[Joanna Robinson]

The olds can't have the old. For, like, both. Victoria on the boat having to talk to people she didn't want to talk to. What does she say to Saxon Lachlan, like, you want to stay longer on that boat? Like that great stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

In. I mean, in their defense, all the people she hated talking to, it seems like left at this point, it's people she might actually enjoy a little bit more.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think she would have preferred the second round of the boat trip, but probably not once they get to the full moon party. But Victoria at the full moon party.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I would have loved to see that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. What can she replace her lorazepam with? You know what I mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

Victoria in sweaty withdrawal at the full moon party. That's a great episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Victoria and Jacqueline both have this just, like, really brittle, like this really thin shell that can so easily be broken of privilege. Just sort of. Jacqueline is so used to. You think about all this all the time. When you think about, like, extremely successful people in, like, let's say, Los Angeles, where I currently am of. There's a way in which you were just surrounded and inoculated from, like, actual real life. And, you know, on the. On the official podcast, they were talking about the fact that, like, maybe Jacqueline has just simply not seen Loose Skin in the last decade because of, like, the life she lives in Hollywood. But yeah, this idea of just sort of like, I. I walk, I float through life in this bubble of privilege that I've created for myself via fame or money or whatever it is, and how soft and unprepared they are for any kind of challenge to that, which I think is interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, and with that just like such a tailored existence, not just in terms of the people you're surrounded with, but being able to do exactly the thing that you want to do and know exactly where you need to go to do it or delegate that to an assistant or a PA or whatever. It's like she's not a person who's had to make a lot of decisions for herself, probably, or like, actually go out and get things done for herself in a long time. And so this idea that her attempts to have party girl fun are foiled by basically just like a bad recommendation for Valentin, to be honest with you, she's like a really angry response to it. And I will say with the fancies overall and specifically with Jacqueline, you're seeing the sasses on Front street right now. Like, it is. It is coming at. The passive aggression is coming up through her pores. And we're starting to see some real things happen between them. And I think a clearer dividing line between Jacqueline and the other two women than we've ever seen before in terms of how they are looking at her and how she is treating them in this, which is very much. I am on vacation with my girlfriends. They are the tag alongs on my journey to find us the appropriate party.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because Lori and Kate were like, we're fine with this pool.

[Rob Mahoney]

They seem. They were enjoying their drinks.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Enjoying the summer.

[Joanna Robinson]

We got our books, we got our drinks. Like, who cares? Yeah. Jacqueline is really interesting. I think that is. It's all a powder keg. Right. But especially Jacqueline when. When we met her and they go to the villa. I mean, we knew it was from the. The start. When they get to the villa and she's talking to Kate and Lori in the first episode, she's like, do you like your rooms? We can take. I would sleep in a tree. I don't really care. I'm not fussy. I'm fine, like, with whatever. I'm just happy to be here. I don't need any pampering. I'm so. I'm such a cool girl. And then to see her shriek and run from water guns was like, deeply satisfying, honestly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also deeply satisfying to see the kids parked outside the storefront waiting for them to come back out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you agree with the Internet that seems to think that Valentin has set them up for that, that he was like, this will fuck with them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. Payback for being ordered around, like, bossed around, perhaps.

[Rob Mahoney]

I could see that. I honestly didn't read into it that way.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think he was More just like, I gotta go find my. My criminal cohorts so I can keep these, these women entertained.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. This is a place where you can spend a little bit of time if you are any kind of normal person on vacation and have enjoy the scene, enjoy the festivities. But clearly I see it more as, like, his inability to read them and what they're after. Right. Like him sending them to the wrong party in the first place. Him dropping them at, you know, in the middle of this, like, market doesn't seem to understand what they're actually after or who these people actually are. And they, I mean, Jacqueline especially seems quite offended by that too hot, too.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cold party with some criminals. Just. Right, perhaps.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're definitely not criminals.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. They definitely didn't rob the boutique in a previous episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

No chance. No chance.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. All right.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will say, Joe, I want to give you all due credit because when we do see these certainly not robber friends of Valentin's, guy in the giant golden eagle shirt and guy with the snake tattoo that goes all the way to somewhere, I'm not exactly sure where, what the manifestation of that is. I kind of hope we get to see it. Now, you can't tease us with the snake tattoo and then not reveal it.

[Joanna Robinson]

We have to see it.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I would like to consult the text logs, Joe, because you and I were texting with our guy Jacoby, I think, like two weeks ago, about Valentin and some of the characterization here. And specifically, one thing you brought up was that he really should be named Alexei. By type, by look, this isn't Alexi. And I have to tell you, Alexei has now arrived. He's simply Valentin's right hand man and not Valentin himself. So I'll do credit for you for spotting the Alexi from a mile away.

[Joanna Robinson]

I lived with a Ukrainian whose name was Alexander, who went by Sasha, and his friend was Alexander who went by Kusha, I think it was. And then like he had like four friends named Alexander. Like, they were all named Alexander or Alexi or something like that. So, yeah, it was. Or Igor of Vlad or whatever. Okay. Welcome to a segment I'm calling Joanna Justifies her English degree.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love this for you. I love the way, I love the way you're wielding your educational background, really.

[Joanna Robinson]

Putting it to work, AKA Rob. Well, actually, one of these books is nonfiction. Rob does not like fiction. Let's see how he does with some nonfiction. Okay, let's talk about what some books that people are reading. Belinda is reading a book that I believe Reddit has misidentified. And I Have correctly identified. But this is what Reddit, you're.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, actuallying.

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, actually years.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're very close. Reddit thinks this book that Belinda is reading right at her, like, sort of private pool, right before she does some Googling, is a book called Surrounded by Narcissists. Colon, how to effectively recognize, avoid and defend yourself against toxic people, parentheses, and not lose your mind. Bracket. The Surrounded by Idiot series and bracket by Thomas Erickson.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which sounds like a hilarious, great book to put into Belinda's hands. This is a white. This is. That book is a white cover with these sort of, like, colored circles in the front. What I think she's actually reading is Surrounded by Psychopaths, how to protect yourself from being manipulated and exploited in business, parentheses and in life. The Surrounded by Idiot series by Thomas Erickson. It is the same cover, but it is black, not white. And so I think it is actually another book in the Surrounded by Idiots series. But Belinda reading Surrounded by Psychopaths, colon, How to protect yourself from being manipulated and exploited in business is, like, exactly what we think Belinda might read after her whole Tanya experience. Right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

And also surrounded by Psychopaths. Is Greg Gary a psychopath. Should I go, you know, Google him? All of that. That being said, I think everyone at the White Lotus could do with reading Surrounded by Narcissists. I say that without having read any of.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, you don't know what's in there. I'd be careful, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. The Surrounded by Idiot series does not seem like one I really want to like. Thomas Erickson seems like a real smug piece of shit, but, you know, any inoculation, so do many people at the.

[Rob Mahoney]

White Lotus, in fairness.

[Joanna Robinson]

Any. Any. Any inoculation we can do against narcissists or psychopaths, we want to do. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

This was the nonfiction tome you were referring to.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was any. Anything that you. Nonfiction. You don't read Self help, though.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is not my. My variety. No, not my genre.

[Joanna Robinson]

You like history. What are we.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, long form nonfiction. John McPhee kind of stuff. That's my zone.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Lachlan is reading a book called Hunger by Newt Homson, a pro Nazi guy. Cool story. Great. Cool. Very cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

All that iPad time really paying off.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, that's why he's reading a book. I was like, why is Lockheed reading a book? Because they took his iPad. Great point. Okay. And I'm actually. I have to wonder if this is perhaps Piper's book, because not that piker like, that Piper would read a Pro Nazi. The book isn't pronouncing just the piece of shit authors, but, like, it just does not seem like something a high school senior would have lying around on vacation. But anyway. The novel recounts the adventures of a starving young man whose sense of reality is given away to a delusionary existence on the darker side of a modern metropolis. While he vainly tries to maintain an outer shell of respect ability, his mental and physical decay are recounted in detail. His ordeal, enhanced by his inability or unwillingness to pursue a professional career which he deems unfit for someone of his abilities, is pictured in a series of encounters which Homsyn himself described as, quote, a series of analyses. In terms of how we can apply this to Lachlan, if. If that's how intentional they're being with the books, which I feel like they usually are on White Lotus. Just this idea of, like, the outer shell of respectability and the darkness that lies within, like, is there. I mean, I don't know how you feel about close, close, close magic. Close up magic.

[Rob Mahoney]

It seems to be working. I want to give him credit for.

[Joanna Robinson]

The darker side lurking inside of the shell of respectability that is Lachlan Ratliff. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think the shell of respectability is what Piper is bringing to him a lot of the time. Right. It's this idea of like a certain kind of conversational decency, a blanching, things that Saxon and Victoria say, for example. And the darkness that is increasingly winning is Saxon putting a beer in his hands and having him exercise and do some of that close up magic for the ladies. And they, they really do seem to be enjoying it. You know, I'm not saying there's not a dark underbelly to close up magic in general. Clearly there is, but Lachlan seems to be killing it with that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love magicians. I'm pro a magician. I don't have like a spicy magician. Take last but not least back to Victoria and her duvet on wading into the ocean. Our listener, Lauren wrote in about the a book that most people read in high school, Kate Chapin's Awakening. It's a story, short story, and this is what Lauren wrote. Lauren wrote the main character in that book taking her own life at the end. Sorry, spoilers for the Awakening. Taking her own life at the end by walking out in the sea after experiencing, quote, an awakening. Will Posey's character experience a similar awakening once her lorazepam runs out and she wakes up to her husband's situation? Will the result be similarly Tragic. Now, again, I don't think that, like, we're gonna see Victoria standing on the edge of the ocean in, like, episode three and then literally walk into the ocean at the end of this season. That all feels a bit too telegraphed for what a White Lotus season usually likes to do. But I think, you know, in terms of metaphorical oceans, metaphorical drowning, that's certainly something that could be on the cards.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Any thoughts about that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I agree with you that it's a little too overt. That's what's always so hard with White Lotus is the line between Clue and such overt red herring ism.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that one almost. It feels too obvious. It feels too above board. Everything. I feel like that's going to be leading up to. To the extent that anyone is dead, which, again, we don't know that anyone is at all, will not be somebody who is overtly talking about death and dying so much over the course of the scene. That's going to be my guess. But again, who knows what happens?

[Joanna Robinson]

I've got two more sort of, like, prompts for you. I prepped you on. Before we get to those. Anything else you want to make sure that we talk about on the Saxon.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Locky front now that they're. They're shipping off to the party?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why do I feel like these two are one party drug away from doing something super weird?

[Joanna Robinson]

Because that's been the vibe all season.

[Rob Mahoney]

The. The incest just keeps getting escalated and escalated and escalated, and I'm just imagining, you know, true to the bacchanalia, true to the debauchery that could potentially happen at the Full Moon party, some giant group ordeal in which they are both somehow involved and end up getting challengers into this thing. I just. I'm concerned, Joe. I'm not looking forward to it, but I just see bad things ahead for these two.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I gotta say, Rob, I really, I. I love podcasting with all the people at the Ringer, but I. The way that you say, like, group ordeal in this, like, true sort of Texas gentleman. It is.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a hooten nanny. It's a true hootenanny.

[Joanna Robinson]

The way that Mallory Rubin talks about things is, like, it's. It's pretty delightful. Yes. Some group ordeal feels like it could. Could very. We're just like, yeah, you're right. One party drug away. Anything else you want to talk about?

[Rob Mahoney]

Just one quick shout out to Chelsea for a lethally effective cry pout.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think that I fully understood the power of Amy Lou's teeth specifically, and what it would bring to the pout situation. But it's a level of escalation that's just not even fair. And you understand why Rick is effectively powerless against it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I say one thing on the. That's a great. That's great shout. Can I say one thing on the Piper front? Sarah Catherine Hook, who plays Piper, said that this was her favorite episode of the season.

[Rob Mahoney]

The one we just saw.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And I was just like really surprised by that because she has a great scene with Tim on the boat. I really like that scene. And something that Jason Isaac talks about on the official pod was that like, Piper was definitely Tim's favorite kid and that he like his son.

[Rob Mahoney]

We got that from the gentle caress of her face as he's breathing like a dying rhinoceros. Like, it's.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a weird vibe, you know, whatever anyway, that she's a daddy's girl, that he loves her most of all, all this sort of stuff like that. But like, if that's Sarah's, like, I don't know, I don't know why. Maybe she was like, it was just fun to be on the boat or whatever. Or it was fun to be around everyone. But I was like, I would. I hope Piper has like a bit more of an exciting episode than this one on the cards. Or is her vibe just like sort of subdued for the rest of the season? You know, I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think she will. Yeah. I mean, what's weird about that is you often hear that shooting for TV and film on and around boats is very complex and very annoying. Not a pleasant experience for the people involved. And so on the one hand, yes, you're on a yacht, but you're shooting on a yacht, which is not quite the same thing. Maybe she enjoyed it just cause she gets to vibe out. She doesn't have a lot to do this episode. And so she just gets to hang out, sip on a drink and not be concerned. Not be concerned with the angles and the boom mics for this particular part of the proceedings.

[Joanna Robinson]

We've talked about a wet bump on this pod before, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Have we?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's usually for background actors, but this idea that if you do a scene and you get wet during that scene, you get a little bit extra money. It's called a wet bump. It's just.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think we have talked about this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I talked about a lot when I did the tv, when I did the podcast on Lost. We talked about the wet bump a lot because they are constantly soaked on that show.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, these in that case, Michelle Monand, Carrie Coon. Leslie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Get your wet bump.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bumping through the roof this episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Get your wet bump. All right. Belinda's Googling Tanya. Freeze frame. Mahoney strikes again. Was prepared for my question when I, when I, when I texted it to you earlier today. They're making a Tanya biopic.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's in the works. The rights have been acquired.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is my. Okay, so my question was like earlier I was thinking, if they kill Greg Garry, then that's the end of the Tanya, Greg, Belinda sort of saga. Right. If Season 4 a la Scream 3, Scream 2.

[Rob Mahoney]

Spoilers for the entire Scream series, I.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess, is about the make like a movie about the victim of an earlier season. Then we keep Tanya's spirit alive. Yes, they're making a Tanya biopic. Who plays her? Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

I ended with three answers. Okay, one, Jennifer Tilly. Maybe I'm just being Jennifer biased here, but I feel like, I feel like she could really pull off the Coolidge element pretty effectively.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wonderful.

[Rob Mahoney]

Two, Katherine Hahn. Going full ham mode. I could also see that the other one, I think is a bit more of a reach given the roles that she likes to play. But I've seen such incredible range from Melanie Lynskey that I could see her playing up in a way that she doesn't often have an opportunity to do. And being a proper Tanya McQuad voice.

[Joanna Robinson]

And all that is such a wonderful roster. And bless your heart for picking age appropriate actresses. Here's what I think is going to happen.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, sorry. Sydney Sweeney was the fourth one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ariana Grande. Ariana Grande, who does a killer Jennifer Coolidge impression, famously gets a taste of that Oscar buzz for Wicked. And it's like, I'm going to go full Oscar. I'm going to play this doomed heiress and do a whole impression and she's going to be like fully 20 years younger, 30 years younger perhaps than she actually is. But that's Hollywood, baby. That's Hollywood, baby.

[Rob Mahoney]

So she could at least be part of the origin story like the prologue, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

The flash, all the flashback sequences at minimum.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, maybe it's just called Young Tanya.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why have we not gotten Young Tanya? You know, these are the spin offs we deserve.

[Joanna Robinson]

Me Tanya, Me Kama Tanya, me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Kind of. I feel like McQuad is so such a great word, though. We need McQuad in there somewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, it's like McBain. Okay, last but not least, and this is a game only for Rob Mahoney. Because it has unfortunately been spoiled for me. Robin, I want to issue like, I guess a very mild spoiler warning there. This isn't, I don't think actually a spoiler, but if you are like hot, hot, hot spoiler averse, you can bail out of the pod now. We can thank Donnie Beacham, John Richter and Justin Sales for their work on the pod. So you make sure to hear that acknowledgment.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Piece out. But we're about to talk about something that is not like a plot point from an upcoming episode, but something that is sort of out there in the air and we want to talk about about it. So even warned a thing that happens on White Lotus, Rob, is that like midway through the season, often a new character, new actor enters the mix. Tom Hollander in season two, Molly Shannon in season one. In an. In an article in USA Today, it was revealed that a big guest star is coming on on the show. We will see them in the next episode, Episode five. And USA Today revealed that it is an Oscar winning performer. No, not gendered actor, actress, Oscar winning Oscar winner next episode. And, and, and HBO has like, kept a lid on who this is. They have not. They asked press who had screeners to not talk about it, stuff like that. So this is all the information we have. Episode five, Oscar winner. So Rob Mahoney. Yes, we've already had Kiwi Kwan, but that's not who we're talking about. We had a Laura Dern voice cameo in a previous season. Which Oscar winner do you think is coming to White Lotus next and which role do you guess or would you like to see them play?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna take you on a long walk, too. I've got four tiers of guessing slash, not guessing that's going to happen here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yes. All right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tier one. The person I hope, with all due respect, that we do not get, Jamie Lee Curtis. It's been done. We've seen it. The Bear. Great. Love it. Let's, let's move. Let's move on. Let's get some other people in the mix to. If only Jessica Chastain or Tilda Swinton were on this show. Who I think would be wonderful fits for the White Lotus universe. I think maybe a little too starry for the kinds of performers we usually get in these roles. So I'm going to say that they're probably not going to happen. Some other possibilities that I'm going to throw on the board, but I don't think are quite fitting the bill of what I'm looking For Brendan Fraser, who I think would make sense in sort of timeline. Makes sense in sort of like the kinds of roles that he might be up for. J.K. simmons, who I think could be wonderful in all sorts of roles. Criminal, interpol, guest at the hotel. Otherwise, I think Mahershala Ali would be awesome on this show and also is the kind of like, like chameleonic performer where I could see him doing any variety of things in terms of how a guest star would show up. But my, my actual guess is Eddie Redmayne as a raver going full Burning man mode at the moon party. I just think he has that juice in him and maybe that's like a little Jupiter Ascending whisper shouting dynamic play going on there. But I could see that him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, Eddie Redmayne with the party drugs at the full moon.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the, that's the official Rob Boney guests on the guest star. So I guess we'll check back in a week and see how we did.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's great. All right. That is my attempt at a neutral response to your guesses, but I enjoyed all of them equally as severance would want me to. We'll be back later this week with severance for sure. The pit question mark. When? We don't know. But we are recording an episode this week about the Pit. So you can either stop or actually start your emails. PrestigTV, Spotify.com prestige TV, Spotify.com with your pith thoughts. We want to hear them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Your pith thoughts. There's some, there's a pun there.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what? I'm gonna abandon ship on that one. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna zaggy, zaggy up. I'm gonna zaggy that thing straight out of here.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, especially if you're David Jacoby, who sent us, I don't know, 100 text messages about the Pit. So keep them coming, Jacoby. You're the best place. Severance emails, pineapple bobbing at gmail dot com. If you guys are on the edge of your seats about it. The AirPods did go to a good home. Our hard working video producer John Richter got the AirPods to give to his wife. So hell yeah, they went to a good, good home. And that's it. Rob Mahoney, you're the best. And I'll see you two more times. But then after that, I'll see you at the full moon party. Okay, wait, Bye.