‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: Episode Summary Episode: ‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Release Date: March 17, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosted by The Ringer’s rotating cast including Bill Simmons, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin, the team delves deep into Season 3, Episode 5 of HBO’s acclaimed series The White Lotus. Titled “Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse,” this episode promises intense discussions, character analyses, and thematic explorations that cater to both avid fans and newcomers alike.

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Episode Recap

The hosts commence their analysis by highlighting what they consider the best scene of the season—a powerful monologue delivered by Sam Rockwell’s character. Bill Simmons emphasizes Rockwell's performance, stating, “Sam Rockwell legend coming in hot. [02:07] He's missed four episodes flying in Thailand. Go see his old friend Rick in Bangkok. In a hotel. Yep, they're just catching up. So what have you been up to? Well, I've been sober for 10 months.” The monologue, lasting approximately five minutes, is lauded as one of the most impeccably acted segments in the show’s history.

Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin echo this sentiment, praising the depth and vulnerability Rockwell brings to his role. They discuss how his character grapples with identity and desire, particularly through his interactions with Walton Goggins’ character.

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Key Themes and Discussions

1. Identity and Desire

   A central theme discussed is the exploration of identity and desire. Bill Simmons reflects on the existential questions the characters face: “What is desire? [03:02] What was the best moment of Sam Rockwell's career up until this episode?” The conversation delves into how characters like Rockwell’s Rick confront their inner turmoil and sense of self amidst external chaos.

2. Buddhism and Spirituality

   The hosts touch upon the incorporation of Buddhism into the narrative, noting its significance in shaping character arcs. Mallory Rubin mentions, “[13:00] This idea that the whole Sam Rockwell monologue is an attempt a lost person trying to figure out who they are, who am I? And where can I find that?” They explore how Buddhism serves as a backdrop for characters seeking enlightenment or solace.

3. Aging and Vanity

   Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin discuss the portrayal of aging, particularly through Jacqueline’s character. They analyze her quest for vitality and attention, suggesting that Mike White uses her storyline to comment on the societal pressures faced by aging individuals. Mallory remarks, “[15:28] She is potentially sabotaging her friendships, her marriage, core relationships in her life to feel that for a minute.”

4. Potential Character Deaths

   A significant portion of the discussion revolves around theories about character fates. Bill Simmons speculates on the possibility of a mass casualty event, comparing it to iconic TV moments from The Sopranos and Lost. Joanna Robinson proposes, “[08:19] I will say we can get to this later if we want to, but when he was like, I looked great, I. I was like, have we ever seen Sam Rockwell in drag before?”

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Character Analysis

1. Sam Rockwell’s Performance

   The podcast lauds Rockwell’s deep and nuanced portrayal, particularly his monologue that delves into his character’s past and motivations. Bill comments, “[02:53] My number one big takeaway is Sam Rockwell legend coming in hot.”

2. Walton Goggins’ Role

   Goggins’ character is highlighted for his complexity and the evolving relationship with Rockwell’s Rick. Joanna notes, “[08:19] I love this show. I'm still trying to figure out what it is Mike White is trying to do with this.”

3. Jacqueline’s Quest for Vitality

   Jacqueline is dissected as a representation of aging and the relentless pursuit of youth. Mallory Rubin adds, “[15:28] She is potentially sabotaging her friendships, her marriage, core relationships in her life to feel that for a minute.”

4. Tim Ratliff’s Desperation

   Tim Ratliff’s character arc is explored, particularly his struggle with impending jail time and his existential crisis. Bill Simmons remarks, “[52:10] We're putting him in this extremely vulnerable place in a way that makes me really invested in what happens next for him.”

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Theories and Speculations

The hosts engage in lively speculation about future plot developments:

1. Character Deaths

   Bill Simmons muses, “[08:50] I feel like everyone on the show could potentially die now,” drawing parallels with past seasons and other TV dramas.

2. Rick and Sam Rockwell’s Partnership

   They theorize about the intentions and future interactions between Rick and Rockwell’s character, pondering if Rockwell’s Rick will return for subsequent episodes.

3. Potential Shootout

   Joanna Robinson proposes a shootout scenario, “[67:30] Let's say it's a shootout.”

4. Belinda’s Involvement with Interpol

   Mallory Rubin suggests, “[67:34] What if Belinda gets in touch with Interpol?”

These theories build anticipation for the final episodes, with the hosts eagerly awaiting how these speculations unfold.

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Notable Quotes

Throughout the discussion, the hosts incorporate memorable quotes from the episode to underscore their points:

• Sam Rockwell’s Monologue:

  • Bill Simmons: “What is desire? [03:02] What was the best moment of Sam Rockwell's career up until this episode?”

• Character Reflections:

  • Mallory Rubin: “What is desire?” [03:02]
  • Joanna Robinson: “I am the drug.” [14:29]

• Thematic Emphasis:

  • Joanna Robinson: “What is desire?” [03:02]
  • Bill Simmons: “You have to think like the woman.” [03:14]

These quotes provide a glimpse into the characters’ internal struggles and the overarching themes of the season.

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Conclusion

The Prestige TV Podcast offers a comprehensive and insightful breakdown of The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 5. Through detailed analysis, engaging discussions, and compelling theories, the hosts unpack the intricate narrative and character developments that make the series resonate with audiences. As they wrap up, the anticipation for the final episodes is palpable, with fans eager to see how the myriad plot threads converge and conclude.

Notable Quotes Recap:

1. Sam Rockwell’s Impact:

   • Bill Simmons: “Sam Rockwell legend coming in hot. [02:07]”

2. Exploring Desire:

   • Bill Simmons: “What is desire? [03:02]”

3. Identity and Transformation:

   • Joanna Robinson: “I am the drug.” [14:29]

4. Potential Climactic Events:

   • Joanna Robinson: “Let’s say it’s a shootout.” [67:30]

These excerpts encapsulate the depth and intensity of the episode, highlighting the podcast’s commitment to delivering rich and engaging content.

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Stay Tuned

For those eager to dive deeper into The White Lotus and other top television shows, subscribe to The Prestige TV Podcast for weekly breakdowns, instant reactions, and in-depth analyses. Whether you’re binge-watching the latest episodes or eagerly awaiting new releases, The Prestige TV Podcast ensures you stay informed and entertained.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate.

[Mallory Rubin]

Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee.

[Joanna Robinson]

So when they heard that the new season of HBO's the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors. Thai iced coffee and Pina Colada flavored creamers.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now.

[Bill Simmons]

The Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. You can find it in video form on Spotify. You can find it on Ringer Dash TV on YouTube as well. This is our fifth one. We are past the halfway point. Joanna Robinson, Mally Rubin are here. You can listen to them on House of R. Yeah. As well. But more importantly, you can listen to them right now.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

And not only are we gonna break down episode five, we're gonna. We have answers for the prosthetic. Possibly. Maybe not. Penis in episode four, more penis talk. Your husband requested he had some commentary.

[Mallory Rubin]

On the last episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What was his text?

[Mallory Rubin]

A lot of dick talk. A lot of dick talk.

[Bill Simmons]

More dick talk is next. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. There's something buzzy in the air. Spring is coming. The mood is shifting and new journeys are beginning. Say goodbye to the winter blues and experience the revitalizing qualities of driving a Lincoln. Everything about a Lincoln is designed to invigorate our senses. And the Lincoln spring sales event. It's happening right now. Step outside and visit your local lincoln retailer or lincoln.com to find some seriously mood enhancing offers on current and past Lincoln models. Learn [e-mail] all right, episode five. Best episode of the season. Yes. Thumbs up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just sensational stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

A rollercoaster ride features quite possibly the best scene in the history of the show from a. Holy shit. We're doing this standpoint.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought you were gonna say in the history of television.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is that how you feel about the Sam Rockwell scene?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's how he feels about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Big takeaways. My number one is Sam Rockwell legend coming in hot. He's missed four episodes flying in Thailand. Go see his old friend Rick in Bangkok. In a hotel. Yep, they're just catching up. So what have you been up to? Well, I've been sober for 10 months. And then we are off. And it's a whole monologue. It's impeccably acted. Yeah, Goggins is perfect. The audience is Marion Goggins. Just like what is happening right now. And it goes for, like I don't know. Four minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's five minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Five minutes. And I think it's in the running for best scene in the history of the show.

[Mallory Rubin]

How did it make you feel? You know, you have often been known to say sex is a poetic act. It's a metaphor. What was it like to see yourself on television in this way?

[Bill Simmons]

It was finally somebody tapping into my inner monologues at all times.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing is, you know, once. Once you've had sex with thousands of women.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thousands of men.

[Bill Simmons]

What's next?

[Joanna Robinson]

To get her into her?

[Bill Simmons]

Now you have to think like the woman.

[Mallory Rubin]

You gotta sit down and ask yourself, what is desire?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. What is desire?

[Bill Simmons]

What was the best moment of Sam Rockwell's career up until this episode?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, he's an Oscar winner. He was nominated for Oscars two years in a row. Right. My personal, like, personal favorite would just.

[Joanna Robinson]

Be Moon, which is Moon's incredible love and think he's unbelievable. Also Box of Moonlight, which is like a really early Sam Rockwell that I really, really love. That's, like, really unhinged Sam Rockwell.

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess as the house of our duo, we would have to say Justin Hammer, one of the genuine bright spots.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also Galaxy Quest.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible in Galaxy Quest. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He was one of those hot young actor. Watch out for this guy. This guy. You're gonna be hearing from this dude. And then had this. And it never quite happened, but then it happened in a totally different, better way, which is he's, like, beloved. But I wouldn't say he's not like an A lister.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. He has an A. Supporting actor Oscar. Mike White, once again mining the supporting actor field for.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he goes on Wiki and just looks at the supporting catego just like, oh, this guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who's next? But, yeah, I think this is a perfect casting because you can definitely, like Sam Rockwell and Won Goggins, feel like they're just pals.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we mentioned before that Sam Rockwell. That Leslie Bibb is his partner. So it's just like couples that film in Thailand together, stay together. Question mark. I don't know. What a fun family excursion for them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Chamomile tea and pajamas at the pool party, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we'll dive into Sam later when we get there in the recap part. But holy shit. I just feels like the Emmy is like, there's just no way. I don't know. We don't know if he's coming back. I don't know how many guest actor episodes.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think even if he's in the rest of the season, he can go for the guest actor, which is the easier one to get, and it's what he should go for.

[Mallory Rubin]

It definitely seems like he's coming back because Rick asked him to keep the next night free.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think if I had to guess role play, I don't know. I would say he's in, like, two, three. But he's not coming back to the White Lotus with them. Like, he's like, this is. The character stays in Bangkok.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So if Rick's coming back to the White Lotus, I don't think he's coming with them.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I feel like we're gonna see him in episode six, when Rick executes his con or attempts to and confronts Hollinger.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he plays the direct. He gets to play the director.

[Mallory Rubin]

He plays the director, and that's it. And then Rick goes back and finds Chelsea in whatever state that she is in after everything that happened on the yacht.

[Bill Simmons]

Really rarely on TV anymore do you have a scene out of nowhere where you're just completely captivated. I think it's harder and harder to pull off because there's so much tv. We've seen so many variations of the same thing. Like, I remember that you never watched Sopranos yet, but, like, when Carmela and Tony actually had their fight when she confronted him, and for four minutes, it was. You're just frozen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God. What's happening? It just doesn't. Lost had a couple great ones. Like the. I mean, the best one ever when. When Jack with the beard. We have to go back. And that was like. That was another one where you're like, I'm not going to put the same Rockwell monologue on, like, that kind of level, but it's pretty close.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's up there. No, I mean it. And also, just visually, a very, very cool shot. I was just talking to our Palm fantasy in the hall about, like, the visuals of White Lotus this season. And I think this episode in particular.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did he mention anything about color grading?

[Joanna Robinson]

He didn't, but, you know, I could tell that he wanted to. No, but, like, all of the color, the neons, the, like, flashing lights in the full moon party and the pool party. I don't know what their light system was at the pool party, but it looked amazing. But in that scene, in the Goggins Rockwell scene, there's, like, this wide shot where they're all sort of, like, doubled exposure on top of each other on the mirror.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was really cool.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really cool shot. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you know the second? Because you You. You had both.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I knew he was coming. I just didn't know how.

[Mallory Rubin]

But we didn't know. And like, before that, though, we had talked earlier in the season. Someone will show up in the middle of the season. There will be that little, like, bit of garnish that you had. You didn't know. And we knew because of two prior seasons of White Lotus to expect something, but we had no idea what shape it would take inside of the season. And then when we had the Rick phone call, we're like, who could that be? But the second that you saw him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, when Goggins goes down to the lobby and it's Sam Rockwell right away, do you know that you're in for the night of your ride?

[Bill Simmons]

Because Sam Rockwell's not just going to Bangkok to mail in an episode of.

[Joanna Robinson]

White Lotus to be like, here's your gun. Bye. Like, that's not what this is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Another. Another Chekhov's gun has entered the chat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah. Really nice leather duffel.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if Joanna knows this, but I used to be a writer.

[Mallory Rubin]

How are the fingers? The fingers still work.

[Bill Simmons]

Fingers. Barely used to be a writer, but I love myself. A long, well written, well acted monologue is still one of my favorites. Like, this reminded me a little. There's this really weird late 90s movie called you'd Friends and Neighbors.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

With Ben Stiller, Jason Patrick. Jason Patrick has this crazy monologue about having sex with somebody in high school. And it's like five minutes long. And it was the same kind of thing. He's telling it to be Stiller. I won't spoil it. But he goes through this whole thing, and Ben Stiller is just. Just like, frozen, like, can't believe what's happening and goes through, but it doesn't. It's really hard to pull off.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say we can get to this later if we want to, but when he was like, I looked great, I. I was like, have we ever seen Sam Rockwell in drag before? And I couldn't find anything. But Walton Goggins, of course, like, very famously was in drag for his appearance on Sons of Anarchy. Played this great character, Venus Van Damme. Looked amazing, actually. And I was just like, sam, I would like you to put your money where your mouth is.

[Mallory Rubin]

You looked incredible episodes last.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would like to see the evidence.

[Bill Simmons]

So we'll get to Sam later. But he was the number one big takeaway. I have three more.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like everyone on the show could potentially die now. I'm not crossing off One person.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I float a theory by you?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, Rob and I were talking about this. About in previous seasons of White Lotus with Armand and Tanya. We never have a character who dies who has like, strong emotional attachments to other characters. Because you don't want to end the White Lotus season on, like a grieving family. That's not something they've ever done before. Right. You've never had anyone at the airport montage at the end, like, actively majorly grieving. So will he do something different this season? Maybe. But like, that's if. If the Ratliff. Any of the Ratliffs died, if Ricker Chelsea died, that would be such a. Like a bummer note to end a season that is usually sort of like tragic comics.

[Bill Simmons]

So when. When the first two seasons ended, the first one, Jake Lacey's in the airport.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And Shane is there. And Rachel comes back.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And the second one is they're running in the water. Water. Because there's a dead body.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which is near the end of the opening.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking, like what they gave away in the thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Daphne.

[Bill Simmons]

This one, it's mid shooting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So we don't know how much is left. I feel. That's why I feel like everybody's in the table. So you get hit by a stray bullet.

[Joanna Robinson]

You think everyone dies at the end.

[Bill Simmons]

Of the season or one person. But I'm just not even like Piper. I wouldn't rule out. You just never know.

[Mallory Rubin]

There was that, like, very ominous cut diaper.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was weird.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's what made me think of it. Debauchery.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was such a weird cut to her.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But was it weird?

[Mallory Rubin]

But I think. You know what's interesting, and this is ultimately the sign of a really well conceived and structured and executed season, is that I think you're both right. Like, it feels five eighths of the way through that everybody could be involved as an impetus.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

In what happens. And potentially die or be harmed in some way. In some way. And it also because, like, all of those possibilities feel like they've been appropriately set up. And then also, like, at the end of the day, probably the damage will be contained to a few people. Even if it is a shootout that is caused by someone getting spooked by a monkey or a lizard. Though I think what you're saying does, like, still make. We've probably talked about this the most throughout the season. Like the guy talk corner of the story or the valentine. The valentine corner of the story. The most ripe for, like, the contained damage.

[Joanna Robinson]

If a Russian dies or Greg Gary.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dies or Greg, that's the other thing. And that's like increasingly to bring Gary slash Greg Greg Gary back. I was thinking about this, watching this episode, like sometimes with White Lotus. I don't mean this as a insult. I actually mean this as a compliment. It actually is like the thing that you think it's gonna be, right 100%. And that's part of what's interesting about it. It's not really about the twist or the shock. Like throughout season two. I mean, throughout season one, we're watching Armand spiral and we're watching Shane and Armand on a collision course. And then throughout season two, the number of moments where there was some reason to parse whether Tanya was headed towards some doom or Greg was the cowboy or this and that. It's like it all was pointing toward the place it went.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but you're making an old school sports mistake. You're taking a very small sample size and projecting.

[Mallory Rubin]

We've only had two other seasons.

[Bill Simmons]

He might just zag and be like, I'm taking out your favorite character in this season.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. So he could truly surprise us by doing something actually distinct from what our expectation now is. Or maybe that is part of the commentary of the show.

[Bill Simmons]

This was the first episode where I was like, it's going to be Piper. He's setting us up. She's found. She's the only one that has found the right level of.

[Mallory Rubin]

Piper will be meditating free from her.

[Bill Simmons]

Family bullshit and getting shot by a stray bullet.

[Joanna Robinson]

I disagree with both of you. I think Piper is going to decide. She wants a life of privilege. She's gonna fall back in with her family. That's what happens on White Lotus.

[Bill Simmons]

She doesn't wanna be a Buddhist.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's not always what happens on White Lotus. Quinn left. He ran away at the airport and he went and frolicked in the ocean.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he didn't see start as the rebel, Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

The rebel used to.

[Bill Simmons]

Quinn lost his iPad.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. He couldn't.

[Bill Simmons]

IPad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Laughlin lost his iPad.

[Bill Simmons]

So that was my second two more theme. Well, third theme. The Buddhism. Buddhism really kicked in this episode. And there's a religious. Yeah, yeah, something happening now.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who else?

[Bill Simmons]

We had snake fire, tsunamis. Now we're in. All right. The concept of choice faith. What do you believe in? We're now moving into that. There's a lot of big ass themes being juggled.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah. This idea that the whole Sam Rockwell monologue is an attempt a lost person trying to figure out who they are, who am I? And where can I find that? Can I find it? Having sex with thousands of women dressing up differently or Buddhism and sobriety, I guess. And then Tim Ratliff, who's praying to his Christian God at the end of this episode, wants to know what should I do? Which is like a callback to what Saxon said earlier, where there's like two kinds of people in this world, and they're people who just want to be told what to do. And so, like, who am I? What should I do? These are the big questions. These are what we search for answers for inside of spirituality.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, and then.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Saxon, they take away his choice because he does drugs, which is the one.

[Mallory Rubin]

He ended up on the other side of that guidance.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't need drugs. I don't need.

[Joanna Robinson]

I am the drug.

[Bill Simmons]

But so they take away his choice, and then he starts acting pretty goofy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wow. I mean, if that's the word you want to use.

[Bill Simmons]

My daughter Zoe, who I watched for the second time last night with.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I asked her what. What drug it was, cuz I know nothing. And she's like, oh, that's ecstasy. Why did you know that? So fat. I got mad at her. She's like, dad, you know, I don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do the little candy in the baggie party drive.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know what's going on. Buddhism. Then the last theme. Aging actress, vanity. I think Mike White's trying to something with that Jacqueline character about somebody who's on the tail end of her run as, like a desired actress. And that this has been the last two episodes, right. They're at the old hotel. I'm not old yet. They're on the dance floor and there's the women checking them out, dancing. And she's like, look at me, I still got it. And then at the end, I'm gonna be the one that has sex with Valentin. Like, yeah, there's something he's trying to do with that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, yeah, just Jacqueline being a person who needs to feel vital, young, have attention, but this is something. You think he's trying to say something bigger with that?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think he's. By the way, I have no inside info, but he's definitely worked with different types of actresses, right? He's had a couple older actresses that he's worked with. I just wonder, like, if there's some extra juice on that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that those points are all part of the same text, though. And even though this season is set in Thailand and Buddhism is a central, actual, active aspect of the text like it's not subtext. That's been there since the beginning minute one of the show and has been a through line across all three seasons. Like, what role does desire play in your life? And what decisions do you make when you're guided by desire and you're ruled by desire? And then what decisions do you make if you feel like you have to rebel against that? Like, the Jacqueline thing is of a piece with that entirely. It's how she, the thing she desires.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is to be desire.

[Mallory Rubin]

To be desired. Right. Is to be an object of other people's desire. And so she is potentially sabotaging her friendships, her marriage, core relationships in her life to feel that for a minute.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think also, I really agree with you. And I think also this idea that at the White Lotus, when you're at the White Lotus, you have achieved so much luxury, you have had so many desires in your life fulfilled. Every desire you could possibly want is probably fulfilled. And how existential, how lost are you when that happens to you? How lost are so many of these privileged people? And so for Jacqueline, who has so much to just need that much more, or for Sam Rockwell to have like his way through Bangkok and he's just like, and yet I need more. I feel hollow. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the White Lotus, recurring theme. If it looks good on the surface, it's probably not. Things aren't going great. We're going to take a break and come back and go through the episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Mallory Rubin]

Brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, the worst security guard. I mean, at least in recent history. I don't know if I'm willing to go. Worst security guard of all time.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love guy talk. Terrible at his job.

[Bill Simmons]

Terrible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Should not be working this job. Really stupid interview. But, like, who's in the booth, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Terrible. So you take, like, a couple minutes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Leaves the booth over and over again. Smart enough to actually go through the video, see who does it. And there's Tim Ratliff coming out with a gun. And then does this weird thing where he's stalking the dinner table for a while, but doesn't have the super subtle. Doesn't have the balls to say, like, yo, man, give me my gun back.

[Mallory Rubin]

I cannot find something. I think you have it. And Tim's like, nope.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just walk straight out on the one hand. Doesn't have the balls on the other hand. At the White Lotus. Like, we hear from Fabian later when he's talking to Belinda. You have to be, like, super. So delicate with these people. So I think he was trying to give Tim the opportunity to just, like, leave the gun on the counter and walk away, and we can all pretend that this never happened. You know, like, that kind of handling.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he gave him the opportunity. But then when the opportunity wasn't taken, there's another move at that point. Hey, I need the gun back, dude.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or just, like, fess up. Go tell Fabian. Go tell your boss. Like, I'm sorry I lost the gun. And this is the theme risk.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mook.

[Mallory Rubin]

But that's exactly it. Like, this is the theme. And this is why he continues to be such a strong candidate for being involved in something tragic at the end. Like, he is in such a dire straight in this stretch of the episode, and yet when Mook walks by and smiles at him, he kind of can't help but get swept up in her beauty. No, I can't blame him.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel the same way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, the shift change comes, and the guy replacing him is like, anything I should know? It's like, nope. And we get it. He's invested in upward forward mobility to impress Mook. And so he's not going to reveal something that leads to him being fired and jeopardizes his courtship, but that's going to probably lead to somebody getting killed.

[Bill Simmons]

Anything I should know? Yeah. The guy in room 507 stole our new gun.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory, I know you related to several people inside of this episode, and I'm so excited.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shocking fashion.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you really?

[Bill Simmons]

What does that mean? I can't wait to find out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you relate to Fabian when he said, I have antacid if your stomach upset? I get digestion issue when I'm nervous. I did.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I was like, my guy also thinks every podcast should be sponsored by Imodium.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mayday.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so this was the only episode. I think that's a same night two episode, which we talked about last time. So we're still at dinner with Piper and the parents, and she tells them the Thailand plan. Poor Tim is just zonked out. She might as well tell him, like, I landed on Mars last night. He would not be listening. But our girl Parker Posey, who's not on. What's the pill? Laprasam.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lorazepam.

[Bill Simmons]

Lorazepam.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's gonna have to drink herself to sleep.

[Bill Simmons]

Just gonna. She's boozing it up. She's more lively than ever with.

[Joanna Robinson]

Apparently, withdrawals from Lorazipam are, like, intensive and kind of immediate. So I don't know what's gonna happen to Vicky over the next couple days, because she was, like, chewing those things down. By the way, I also found out that apparently lorazepam is sweet and just dissolves on your tongue so we don't have to worry about Tim taking them dry.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're just a sweet little candy.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'd like to apologize to Tim Ritter for that and that alone.

[Bill Simmons]

Only that poison fruit, though. Still poisonous.

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible Parker Posey stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Best scene of the whole season, I think, so far.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which one? The table scene or back at the villa?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, you combine them together, she's just.

[Joanna Robinson]

Charles Manson wrote books. Bill Clinton wrote books. Hillary Clinton wrote five books. The list goes. That just absolutely killed me. No, but, like, everything she's. I mean, like, all of her.

[Bill Simmons]

She thinks they're in Taiwan. Yeah, that was a revelation.

[Mallory Rubin]

Insane.

[Joanna Robinson]

But when. When Piper says okay a lot. Okay. Lol. Lied to you. I'm not here for my.

[Mallory Rubin]

For.

[Joanna Robinson]

For my thesis. I'm here to check out thesis. There's no book club. She says the reason I wanted to come here was to check it out, and I did, and I really like it. Piper, you. You briefly walked through Pathetic. The monastery once.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You mean.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you mean you checked it out and you like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Literally the equivalent of watching one Instagram reel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

You could end up with a completely different set of values than the ones we gave you. She was awesome.

[Joanna Robinson]

Shelter Girls like you are constantly getting brainwashed and turned out right. Someone needs to take Vicki's, like, the Netflix documentaries away from Vicki.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

How about look at the Catholics Organized cults and deviant sex can go hand in hand. Mike White. Just slinging.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was gonna say that's a class.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, it sounds like Vicki should have a podcast.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mike White. Son of a. Son of a preacher. But, like, you know, the Catholics, I guess, are open season.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great combination. This was really like the. The Vicky experience in miniature because she is, you know, ultimately really embarrassing herself in multiple respects. Like, revealing yet again that she doesn't actually know anything about her own child, doesn't know anything about her own child, that she is a practicing Buddhist, that this is something that's important to her, why it would be important to her. She is just revealing.

[Joanna Robinson]

You want to live in Taiwan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Prejudice after prejudice, like, total ignorant person. And yet we kind of can't stop, like, laughing in a fit of hysterics as we watch this performance because it is such a finely tuned and perfectly calibrated bit of social commentary.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also. Yeah, I think the. I think the one extra layer of that is that I think also she's right. That's what I think is also true about Vicky here. Not that they're in Taiwan, obviously, and not that you can't explore Buddhism or whatever, but the fact that Piper has not put enough thought into this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the best Piper word? Was it guru?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

Or was it. What was the other one? She said?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's tough, crowded field.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Buddhist. I do feel like sometimes with these shows, the actor takes, like, three to four episodes to really nail the character completely. Now she has it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you been enjoying the. The clip of Parker Posey from, like, it's Good Morning America.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw that she was talking about how much fun she has.

[Joanna Robinson]

No Buddhism. Yeah, it's great. It's great stuff. I think everyone has come all the way back around on all of the accent work on this.

[Mallory Rubin]

I actually sometimes find it most amusing to listen to her just with, like, Norma. Like, the way she just said have no purpose, because she's drawing it out over, like, 45 seconds, even though it's three words, since that's the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, at the end of that whole thing when we got back to the villa, and she says, you could do everything right, and then some moment can upend everything and doesn't realize that poor Tim's listening to that, going, oh, you don't know how right you are, sister, because we are. I am about to go to jail unless I shoot myself at the end of this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, he's gonna have a tough time later in bed when he Hears what she has to say about facing the feedback back home. You know, she says, people are going.

[Joanna Robinson]

To say we're bad parents. And he goes, I want to worry about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, just wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a lot of other things to worry about that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have a team question for you guys. Did you. Obviously he's in his haze, right. He's in this cloud for. For so many different reasons. The. On the heels of the phone call, learning he's going to go to jail, the drugs, all of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

But did you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Were you expecting at all, like, that he would actually say, piper, I support you. You should move abroad and live your life away from the blowback of my impending shame that he would actually welcome a member of his family. And I was kind of expecting that a little bit, though I don't. Not fully, because the other part of this is, like, it's one more defeat where he has to, like, yet again, grapple with the fact that his family is just shattering around him. His legacy is shattering around something that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Something that Jason Isaac said on the official podcast he was talking about. First of all, Piper is his favorite child, clearly is Tim's favorite. That he. That she can do no wrong. That anything she wants. She's like the princess. She can have whatever she wants. Which is, by the way, what Saxon accused her of earlier.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then also that, like, all of this is. He's like, she's not staying here. Saxon's not going back to the office. Like, none. None of. And nothing is happening for them in the future as far as Tim is concerned right now. But here's my question for you. And Rob and I did talk about this on a show like White Lotus where there's never consequences for the extremely rich. Do you think there's a possibility that this whole thing hounding Tim just, like, blows over before the season's over?

[Bill Simmons]

Good question. But, no, I don't. I think that. I think that's. It's too. They're too far down the road with it. They wouldn't be like, oh, it turns out Kenny Nguyen was like. It was full of. And you're off the hook now. I can't imagine they would do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. I just, like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mike White just, like, really likes to let rich people off the hook as a commentary for the fact that rich people get off the hook all the time. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you know, it's a good theory, though. I like it to, like, watch him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Spin out for a week, and then.

[Mallory Rubin]

To me, totally imbalances.

[Bill Simmons]

They Cut a deal.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he doesn't, typically, because he doesn't have his phone. Like, that's actually part of why that feels possible.

[Joanna Robinson]

He doesn't have the latest update that, like, everything's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's got a gun to his temple. If Vicky hadn't opened the door. Is he alive? Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Good thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Makes it through the next couple days, finds out he's okay, and goes back to the same life of privilege and getting away with white collar crime.

[Bill Simmons]

Speaking. Jason Isaacs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. It's time to say what you've been waiting for.

[Bill Simmons]

Episode four, the penis. We had a big debate in episode four about stunt or real. I'm always in this. I think they go stunt every time or some sort of fluff. You said real and Mal said real.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What? Some of your deep dive research, some emails. What did you hear? We did hear from some listeners.

[Joanna Robinson]

We heard from a lot of listeners that occasionally, apparently most men in the UK are not circumcised. So we got a lot of email saying.

[Bill Simmons]

So that helps the real case.

[Joanna Robinson]

No stunt case.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Oh, interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

However, Mallory is a counter move, which.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is Jason Isaacs is a Jewish man. And so being circumcised to me is part of the proof that that is actually his dick.

[Bill Simmons]

That's all you have? What do you mean, a week of research? That's the only thing Jason Isaacs is Jewish.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's in response to that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Specifically to her.

[Bill Simmons]

I have the answer.

[Joanna Robinson]

You had the answer.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so the episode has aired.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just want to say really quickly.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was responding to Joanna's point on circumstances.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just want to say really quickly, thank you for that. I just want to say really quickly, the amount of restraint that we have shown for the sake of content, not asking you right away what the answer was. It said, reveal it on the pod.

[Bill Simmons]

Our texting has been, like, barren of any details. What'd you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

We're, like, really close to do it here. The interviews off of episode four are out, and so I would say we know the answer simply because not a single interview has included the line, it was a prosthetic, which everybody says when they wear a prosthetic. So it's real. That's my deductive reasoning.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's the answer?

[Bill Simmons]

So because they didn't mention that it was actually him, you think it's real?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think because they didn't mention that it was a prosthetic, it's real.

[Bill Simmons]

Any last thoughts before I tell you the answer?

[Joanna Robinson]

I still say it's real prosthetic. Okay. Yeah, devastating G is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks. Thanks for doing that research, though, Bill. I really appreciate you.

[Bill Simmons]

I told you they came to the bottom.

[Mallory Rubin]

What does that go big or go home quote mean?

[Joanna Robinson]

Then what is that about? It's not prosthetic every season, right? It was prosthetic for Steve and Steve's on. Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

The lack of balls were to the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you really were. However, Vlad. Vlad in this episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's gotta be real.

[Mallory Rubin]

That thing for sure was swinging.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's all around. That was real.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's gotta be real.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the whole package.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is that. Is everyone current on Shoresy Season 4? What is that? Technically, the helicoptering. Helicoptering is a big plot in Shoresy Season 4. Or do you have to be holding your dick and swinging it for it to be helicoptering?

[Bill Simmons]

What's helicoptering?

[Mallory Rubin]

This is what I'm asking.

[Joanna Robinson]

Vlad is doing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Helicopter or do you actually have to hold your dick?

[Joanna Robinson]

I cannot wait to see what your husband texts you about this episode. And my question question is, is next week finally gonna be the episode where Mallory doesn't make hand gestures?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, it depends on what, you know, the show gives us to work.

[Bill Simmons]

We played all the hits of this episode. We had. We have that long Sam Rockwell story.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

We had nudity in the pool on both sides.

[Mallory Rubin]

We sure did.

[Bill Simmons]

We had brothers kissing. Like, this show is really going for it.

[Mallory Rubin]

We were gonna get another dick at the end in the Jacqueline sex scene, but we didn't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not yet.

[Bill Simmons]

It seemed like when. Yeah, we can get to that. But, yeah, it seemed like they were setting up for the wide shot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he, like, looked down right before he took off his pants, and I was like. To get another dick. But alas.

[Bill Simmons]

Speaking of the fancies, condolences. Yeah, sorry. Sorry about you and Jason. I know you're leaving the dream.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hey, I support everybody making the choice that they think is right for them. Good for him.

[Bill Simmons]

So the fancy cougars were out with the Russians.

[Mallory Rubin]

Boy, were they.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the great things about this episode is not knowing where it was going to go. And because it's the white Lotus, your mind is racing to, like, all the possible terrible ways that could go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And actually none of them went that way.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it went exactly how we said from the beginning, which is that Jacqueline was going to push Valentine on Laurie and then fuck him herself.

[Mallory Rubin]

A number of episode one predictions for Fruit here in episode five. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the guy from Game of Thrones? What was his part?

[Mallory Rubin]

The Magnar.

[Bill Simmons]

Then Magnar Fenn said, my parents are dead, and My sister's a bitch.

[Mallory Rubin]

That really made me laugh. Honestly, he's really great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm really obsessed with your, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just by the same accent.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can we hear you doing exercise with tires? Exercise with tires. They're all like, oh, yeah. We were dancers. And Kate's like, I played softball. And he's like, I did flip tires. Exercise with tires.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, CrossFit.

[Bill Simmons]

Should we. Should we dance?

[Mallory Rubin]

She's.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacqueline's just dying to get out there and strut her stuff. She just wants to get attention from anyone.

[Mallory Rubin]

That I would drop dead.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Carrie Coons? Dancing was great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Readable.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, really, like, 10 out of 10 die.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have. Okay. I have multiple things about this. First of all, I think underrated greatness, actually is Leslie Bibbs terrible dancing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

The face, Kate.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great stuff. Carrie Coon, great dancer. There are some moves that were a little like Julia Stiles saved the last dance. Little, like, top that teen witch, you know, a little like white girl hip hop.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Like. But overall, fish hooking him in and then kicking him. That was wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Great stuff. Really good scene.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Electric. Did you guys think when Jacqueline was looking at the. The three women watching that she was like, I. They know I'm famous. It's not just that they think I'm hot and I look great.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, they know I'm famous, and they want.

[Mallory Rubin]

They want. She wanted this to get back to Harrison.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, she felt judged by them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. She's like, I'm here, not you guys.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's like, yeah. No, she was like. They were. They were, like, looking and, like, laughing and stuff like that. It was very much like Jacqueline at the retiree pool is the way those girls were looking at her.

[Bill Simmons]

And look at that older lady dancing with the Russians.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like, look at those old women dancing with those guys.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so she just.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So she just, like, mirrored herself on Alexi and on and grabbed Valentin to be like, I'm hot and I deserve to be out here. That was my interpretation of what that was.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the Russians bought them shots. And watching it the first time, it's like, this is. I was thinking.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. I also thought there might be something in the shots, especially when they were like, pressure.

[Bill Simmons]

When Carrie Coon does the second one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then I was like, oh, my God, she's gonna actually, like, yeah. But nothing.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then they toasted to Shia LaBeouf and they.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the three Russian ladies came over and started with all the guys, and they Decided to go back to the villa.

[Mallory Rubin]

Genuinely scary moment from Alexi in that stretch. That was alarming.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kate wants to go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Deeply relate.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think we should just go to bed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Time to go to bed. Mallory and I were like, that's us. And she's. She's lodging her objections. She's like, should we just call it a night? Like, haven't we done enough? And Jacqueline doesn't even dignify this with a response or a conversation because Jacqueline's like, this is my vacation and you're just my sidekicks. So whatever I want to have happen is what's going to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Kate's a really good character because may or may not know a couple Kates. Sure. There for the fun, but not 100%.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There to have a great time, but not really. Are we. Are we make sure we're getting home at a decent hour. It's in the back of their head the whole time. And they. They don't want to miss anything. But they're also not going to unleash.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. PJs at the pool party.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, she literally says later, like, we're old ladies. And Jacqueline is, of course, appalled and horrified. And that's the exact idea that she's rebelling against.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jacqueline, who is, like, passed out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wakes herself up to be like, shut the fuck up.

[Mallory Rubin]

We are off against the pool chase. She, like, barely could keep her eyes open when she was about to have sex, which was obviously quite disturbing. That was alarming.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they go back to the villa.

[Mallory Rubin]

They sure do.

[Bill Simmons]

And actually hold that because it ties into the. What's happening on the boat. We'll go to.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll go to quite an edited sequence.

[Bill Simmons]

Cutting back before we go to Bunda. The Russians as a threesome. I feel like this could have gone wrong from a writing standpoint, from a casting standpoint, but I actually really enjoyed the Russians. I don't know, are they dangerous? Are they not? Did they commit the robbery? They probably did. Are they going to be in some crazy Muay Thai fight tomorrow and somebody's eyeball is going to get yanked out? Maybe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I think they said it was their friend. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So there's another member of the group still, which is interesting. And obviously they have this larger social circle there because of the three women who come up to the table to yell at them. So, yeah, I think Vlad is really the key there because Val and Alexi are just a little too. It's. You couldn't really, even for a second, stop thinking that they were working Them and Vlad, in some ways is the scariest. Like, he's the muscle. I mean, they all have great muscles, but, like, he was just such effective comic relief.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That it was impossible not to enjoy those scenes. And the. The out, like the odd man out in each of the trios.

[Joanna Robinson]

The fact that Vlad and Kate are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, paired was a great touch.

[Joanna Robinson]

First of all, I want to say Alexi, I'm really disappointed because I think he promised us that snake tattoo went all the way down.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's a liar.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, you know, now we know their word is trash, false advertising, barely anywhere. But as you mentioned, their muscles. I looked it up. Julian, who plays Alexi. Julian Kostoff holds over 60 medals as a professional swimmer, including a bronze medal at the Balkan Games 2007. And then Arnas, who plays Valentine. WB I. I would watch the Balkan Games. That sounds interesting to me. And Arnas, who plays Valentine is. Is a boxer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Going to Belinda quickly. It's been a rough bullen the season.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you think so?

[Bill Simmons]

Got kind of one potential. She tells. She finally tells Fabian about Greg Gary.

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved this.

[Bill Simmons]

Actually, the guy that's asking about me, I know him. Big mistake. I think we've set up Fabian as some sort of a villain. Correct.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think he's just like, this is okay. We met all those criminals on the yacht and their young girlfriends. This idea that this is a haven for criminal activity. People who are criminals who are escaping the repercussions come.

[Bill Simmons]

He just knows the game and he doesn't. It's almost like he doesn't want to know.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like, yeah, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, it's interesting because I took it as he's. He's in the Greg Gary pair. No, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think he's just like. He just doesn't want anything to be ruffled. He's like, you might be mistaken. We shouldn't be gossiping about guests. P S. He's not a guest, but okay. Fabian.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some of the guests have colorful past. Right. So it's just like. But then he ends it with, I think you'll survive. I think it's like that kind of.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel better now that she'll survive.

[Joanna Robinson]

Insidious evil where he's not like a villain villain. He just wants everything to be calm and does not want to ruffle anything.

[Bill Simmons]

That's like gossip.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Well, like, he does not look too closely. He told Guy Talk last episode, like, your job is to protect the hotel. So this is his version of that. Right. It's about the. Like, what it. When he. His greeting to the guests was the most effusive. Like, this is the finest hotel in the world that we had seen through three seasons. And we heard when he sat down with Citela, like, this kind of thing was not encouraged in my home. This is like a haven of some sort for him that is distinct from where he came before. And it struck me as, like, very contrary to last season. Like, we have three really distinct versions of the hotel manager. And last season, like, if we think about the response.

[Bill Simmons]

I like the shitting in the suitcase.

[Joanna Robinson]

Everyone is in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everyone is in. Is in Armand shadow for sure. But, like, when Lucia and Mia penetrated the hotel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Phrasing. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

In Sicily.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was like, this is an affront to decency and dignity. So Fabian is in the exact opposite. He's like, this is actually a kind of a haven for depravity. Come here with your sins and be who you are. And we will. Will protect that. It's nice to get different versions of that.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you think. You think he's being set up for. What's your Fabian theory?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just raising a flag.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if Greg Gary, you know, he looks out for him a little bit, and I don't know, something didn't sit right with me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Doesn't help that this guy recently played a notorious film Nazi. Right. Doesn't help. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know that part. I also thought we need some sort of bad person who works for the hotel this season. There's somebody in there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Valentine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Valentine is just leading a crime room into the hotel. I think we have that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

Or just maybe he likes to have fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could be. Could be.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he's just a good butler. Let's take care of his clients.

[Mallory Rubin]

He went in, like, the span of mere hours, I believe, across those two episodes from being like, I can't leave at all to, like, yeah, sure, not only will we take you to the club, but we'll definitely come back and, like, our pool and in the room.

[Bill Simmons]

Wasn't he the one that did the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the energy. Healing energy.

[Bill Simmons]

He's an energy healer.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is something I do. I thought that fantastic also. Basically, you love Valentine.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's your guy.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a lot of good qualities.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's grown on me as well. I thought that Fabio was basically acting like a pimp. That, to me, was the much more sinister thing. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's just basically taking a liking to you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He's like, kind of saying to Belinda, like, this rich loser who has a really hot girlfriend. Like maybe wants to you. And she's like, he wants to kill me. And Fabian is like, no, no, no. Like, yeah, rich, high profile guy. Go for it.

[Joanna Robinson]

They think he kills his wife. I'll send you a link.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was a great line. Please do. Because I'm having a hard time following. I like. I actually like that it's like a meta commentary on this show is supposed to be standalone each season and now we're three seasons into one plot line carrying across. And it like, is it actually something that is a touch convoluted?

[Joanna Robinson]

But I also just love when she was like, blah, blah, Greg. And he's like, Gary.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, later, Belinda's guy comes to a room orange.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

She's an iguana banner dresser. And they end up having sex. Which we do not see.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I would rank her plot as the least interesting out of all the pots.

[Joanna Robinson]

But on a scale of 1 to 10, how is there might be a murderer after me? There is a giant lizard in my lifetime.

[Bill Simmons]

Any.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anytime there's a giant lizard in my villa. And my son won't be here tomorrow as like a pickup line.

[Mallory Rubin]

I say the night me tonight because my son's coming tomorrow. Is definitely a move.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's kind of a weird one, but it's a move. I did find her stumbling super nervous. Like, do you. This is consent. Do you guys do that here? We just started. Very charming.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think they're very sweet. I just think. I think if you're. If you're. If you're struggling out there. Maybe there's a murderer after me. Will you stay the night? Could be a move to try.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you at least cuddle? Let's go to the boat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great. Finally.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just brothers being brothers. Brothers.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a little secret. Locky. They just want to be used.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Some life advice from Saxon.

[Mallory Rubin]

Awesome Life advice that young Lockhee is going to use on Saxon in mere moments.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So mirror Chloe loves young guys.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Innocent look and how they shake little rabbits.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was great.

[Bill Simmons]

She likes to see their little heart pounding out of their chest.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's a riot.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's great. I'm a fresh breeze, baby.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mere hours before he's gonna smooch his brother.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would say his brother smooched him.

[Joanna Robinson]

He didn't break the kiss.

[Mallory Rubin]

He seemed very right away.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, you're jumping ahead with the Chloe piece. The Chloe piece. Because we like to take little pieces that we can take. Maybe for the final episode when shit goes down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When I was Modeling. All the girls who were romantic ended up broke or brokenhearted. Dot, dot, dot. Or worse.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's worse?

[Bill Simmons]

So what does that mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Another death? Well, it's two.

[Bill Simmons]

So what does she know? Cuz she's like, I feel like Gary killed his, could kill me, killed his wife. She mentioned that last episode, he could kill me.

[Joanna Robinson]

But this, that line was about Chelsea. She was like, you're romantic. Every model that I knew was a romantic ended up wound up broke or broken.

[Bill Simmons]

Piece together her puzzle of. She met this guy on, on Dubai, Tinder. She, she knows he might have killed his. Might have killed his wife. That's in play.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She worked in a business where people ended up dead and, and Greg, Gary used to have sex with her a lot.

[Mallory Rubin]

And now three times a day, now he's a fucking monk. Well, I think this works yet again on both levels. It's like another death harbinger for Chelsea. We've had one, at least one every single episode. But also Chelsea, who we love, we get the amazing. He's like my child, he's 50. Replies Baby Yoda. It's like he's 50. But the Chelsea responding to broken, brokenhearted with what's worse, that actually does tell us something about her. What's worse than being broke? Like she is now accustomed to a certain lifestyle, right? So losing Rick is losing that lifestyle. And that is not something that she wants to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, that's, that's not my take on Chelsea at all. You think she's materialistic?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think of her that way. That's why it struck me because it's like even Chelsea, that's why I thought she was a character who we think of as kind of like, yeah, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Didn'T take the money thing either. I thought it was more like that was like her identity was being with.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rick, I think brokenhearted or worse. And she was like, what's worse? What's worse than being brokenhearted?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure, there's that. But like, I think it's interesting that Chelsea feels really separate from that. Like she's pure, she's driven by love and connection. And yet, like when we get all of the Villator, she's the one who's like, we should always live like this. Like, even Chelsea has been corrupted by tasting the lifestyle.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's definitely.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Van calls her Hot Tooth Lady.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think it's true that everyone in White Lotus is susceptible to that. I just think, I really do think that Chelsea's motivation is like this hippie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I'm not saying that's her motivation. I'm saying that, like, even somebody who's not motivated by that is swept up in it at a certain point.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Saxon gives us it's better to go for what you want in life and get rejected than have the shot, not take it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is a little similar to the Wayne Gretzky I was gonna say.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's a Gretzky.

[Bill Simmons]

What's that one?

[Mallory Rubin]

The very sporty.

[Joanna Robinson]

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. That's a sports quote.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure is.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I knew it. Just wanted everyone to know.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Lachie says, this is when they're paired off, two and two. What if this life is just a test to see if we can become better people?

[Joanna Robinson]

That's Buddhism.

[Bill Simmons]

And Saxon goes, what?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

I was horrified by that favorite moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was great.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's the sort of my understanding. Please do email me if I get Buddhism wrong. But, like, the idea of Buddhism is every life, you purify yourself towards nirvana. So the idea is like, each time, sort of like Quantum Leap, you're trying to be a better. Like, each time, you're trying to be a better person.

[Bill Simmons]

On paper, probably the best sales job for a religion. Just keep living your life and trying to get better.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Keep coming back.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's like I just want to come back as a cat once I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Think I have one life. That's it. Just one.

[Bill Simmons]

One life for Mouth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's. Here's what I thought was, like, the most. There's a lot of telling. Three.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, three.

[Joanna Robinson]

And which one are you?

[Bill Simmons]

But I think you just become like, a plant.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which one do you want?

[Mallory Rubin]

That sounds kind of nice.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like I'm on the second one.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like I'm also on my second.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

One more to go.

[Bill Simmons]

One more. That's it. Trying to make the best out of this one.

[Joanna Robinson]

One day I'm gonna take you down, is what Lachlan says to Saxon.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And there's something in their dynamic that is just sort of like he is attracted to his brother. I think we've known that since episode one in its own way. But also, like, hates his brother. Do you know, like, that that's in the mix, this idea of, like, I want to be you, I want to have sex with you, possibly. And also, it's a very white lotus sort of like Jackie Shauna thing. And also just like, I hate you. You're constantly tormenting me at the same time, you know, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that, like, very shortly after that, Saxon's response, because that was like, the nominally about the beer, right? Who it's, oh, I need you to, like, pace yourself. Let them get mad.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm a senior bro.

[Bill Simmons]

Let them get all sloppy.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then shortly thereafter, Lockie, like, immediately takes the pill from Chloe and Saxon is horrified. And you have one beat where you think, well, it is technically his job as the older brother to be, like, protecting him, make sure he's safe. But really, there are two things in the mix there. One, he, Locky, is just not listening to the. He's not following through on the plan that Saxon just said. But more broadly then, Saxon just has to confront time and time again across this episode, like, Lockie's his own person. He operates outside of Saxon's control. And not only does he operate outside of his control, he is preparing to conquer Saxon. Like, to turn this around on him completely, to be the one who is in control of the situation in a way that Saxon is not prepared for.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you have siblings?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was gonna ask a creepy question about it.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just I don't know any. Any brother combo that would even go within 2% of the. This.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why this. This. This felt. I'll just do this now. This felt like a whiff unrealistic to me. But this is Mike White's White Lotus. Just the whole thing, like, it's just. I don't know where this is going, but I did, like, quotes like, saxon doesn't do drugs. I am the drug. Woo. I love third person. Saxon was there running out of ways to make him a complete douche. And they're like, third person could work.

[Joanna Robinson]

Big dog on the space cat. Space cat is the name of the boat, but he, of course, is the big dog.

[Bill Simmons]

What did you find how it cost.

[Joanna Robinson]

160K a week to charter the space cat?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we get a drunk drugs montage. We get all the naked Russians in the pool with the fancies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

We get the brothers dancing with Chelsea and Chloe. It's starting to feel mating ritualist. I wrote down, like, it just. There's clothes, we're underwater in the pool.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just spinning out of control sort of thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Carrie Coon goes topless. It really seemed like she was going to take on two guys in a scene in a room. That did not happen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Should have hooked with them instead.

[Joanna Robinson]

She wanted them instead. She wanted to tell them what a badass lawyer she is. Yeah, that was amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if they Love that. And then the brothers are getting with something. Yeah. Yeah. She said, oh. When she's talking to the Russians. I did get worried, like, we were going to a dark place for a second. Like her and the two guys. Yeah. It's like, oh, man. What? But it was fine. She went to bed, went to scratch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Her ass while jacking her dude.

[Joanna Robinson]

Before she went to scratch her ass and snore a little bit.

[Mallory Rubin]

The dance.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was like, feeling herself so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very sad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really sucks. Jacqueline sucks.

[Mallory Rubin]

She does.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we have the late night boat ride. It feels like there's a swimming disaster for a second.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, John's like, oh, my God, did somebody hit their head? That doesn't happen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Chelsea's talking about bad things happening to her. Chloe's ready to have a foursome.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Should we all just.

[Bill Simmons]

And then. And then we have a little kiss contest. The brothers kiss. So what.

[Joanna Robinson]

What are.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the ramifications of this going to be the do the thing where we were the next day. We don't remember. It happened.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is this where the night ends? That's my question.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, didn't seem like it was over. Right. I think that Lockie. It was Saxon, like, rubbing his hands in his eyes. He's bleary eyed. He's confused. He's like, speaking of what's happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lack of consent. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is happening? The girls are laughing, but Saxon looked genuinely disturbed by what was unfolding. Is that because he's like, wait, this is not okay. Or is that because he's like, what am I feeling? But the single most striking shot in the entire episode to me is Lachie's face after that because he's just, like, experiencing a moment of not only desire, but, like, power.

[Joanna Robinson]

He feels proud. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like, I took the thing I want. You've been telling me to. And I did. And it was really fucked up and weird. I would like to ask you guys where this falls. We'll keep it just to HBO Sunday nights on your HBO Sunday night incest power rankings.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God. I mean, is it friggin Jamie?

[Mallory Rubin]

Jamie Cersei spot doggy style.

[Bill Simmons]

This has to be one.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's number one. Where would you put this? Comparing?

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's one, two, and three.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I mean, at least two.

[Mallory Rubin]

What about Jimmy and his mom?

[Bill Simmons]

I guess the 1300s were different, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure. It's true. Jimmy and his mom, boardwalk. That's tough to match.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is the research. Baller was doing this last week, Googling HBO Incest. Model.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't have to Google any of it. Octavia and Octavian on Rome. That's a great one. Obviously Thrones and trying to think, did.

[Bill Simmons]

They do anything on Curb the List.

[Mallory Rubin]

Of Thrones and House of the Dragon alone? You know, we could. We could get dozens deep. Obviously Daemon and Rhaenyra did this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Even.

[Mallory Rubin]

This doesn't even really crack the top five. Doesn't even crack the top 10.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a kiss that lasted long enough to make me uncomfortable, but it wasn't like they weren't sucking face for like 20 seconds.

[Mallory Rubin]

But lucky goes back in for the line.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was genuine.

[Bill Simmons]

Just long enough to be weird.

[Joanna Robinson]

I usually hate these exercises, but I will say this. If the genders are switched in this scene, this is like one of the most horrific things. If. If a girl was like rubbing her eyes and drugged out of her mind and there were two guys on the couch laughing and sort of like cheering it on and stuff like that. That is horrifying. This is horrifying. Like, it's. It's like. And. And I like that. I don't like it, but I like that a character like Saxon, a character. Schwarzenegger is great. A character I hate. I hate this guy. They're putting him in this extremely vulnerable place in a way that, like, makes me really invested in what happens next for him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Even, like, he got peer pressured into doing drugs. Like, he didn't want to do the drugs. He did. We have everything. You know, we. We had the moment earlier in the season where Tim was like, I don't do drugs. And sections like, me neither. And Piper's like, dude, you crush Adderall all the time. He's like, just to be. Do work. Just to be good at my job. We're seeing what's happening with Tim. Like these. These men say they don't do this thing and then they become swept up in a very alarming way and something that they're quite susceptible to. So there was just a lot of, like, stuff in the episode where Saxon and not a character we had any empathy before previously is like in this deeply vulnerable place. I thought in terms of where we cut off and like that point about not knowing what comes next. These are not incest examples. To be clear. These are not incest examples.

[Bill Simmons]

But coming up next.

[Mallory Rubin]

But the. Because we don't know, like, do they end up sleeping together? Does something happen after?

[Bill Simmons]

I think they're so fucked up that it ends there.

[Joanna Robinson]

A little bit of a.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like E2 Mama Tombie and. Or like Challengers Aspect to it, right. Where you're just like, again, remove the incest from it. In theory, somebody. It's that sexual situation is supposed to be about somebody else. And then, oh, a thousand percent.

[Joanna Robinson]

The question is, end up being the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ones who gravitate towards.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's my main question, because I actually have no doubt in my mind that some upsetting combination of people are about to have sex on this boat. Boat. Schwarzenegger posted a great thing on Twitter where it's like, him and Sam Navolo, who plays Lachlan, it's just the two of them. He's like, what could happen on what. What bad could happen on a boat? The question. Actually, my question right now, is Chelsea involved? Because I would like Chelsea to not be involved. You know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

So it could be one of those White Lotus things where there's just an immense amount of regret nine hours later because of the decisions that are about.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, I. I would like no one to be involved. I would clearly not like brothers. I want everyone to go to bed or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

But, like, let's go to bed.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Kate was right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kate is always not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe not about the election.

[Bill Simmons]

Tomorrow's a new day. Got a big movie tie fight tomorrow.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I think that, like, Chelsea. Chelsea calling Rick and him not picking up, and then Rick calling Chelsea and her not picking up. That shot is so good when, like, it's the phone and then, like, throw his, like, legs in the air and stuff like that. But, like, is Chelsea going to do something she regrets on this boat?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think so, ultimately, because at the end of the day, Chelsea, when she said. When they had the funny but alarming classic White Lotus conversation about, well, you think he'd kill you. No. Oh, Gary would kill me. What did Chelsea say? She's like, I just actually would feel really bad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you know, Exactly. Well, that's like, that's why the stakes are high.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And. But she feels diff. Really different. And a reason that draws us to her from Jacqueline, where Jacqueline's like, I feel betrayed, so now I will hurt this person. Harrison.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, don't. We need a moral.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's not Chelsea.

[Bill Simmons]

We need a moral compass in every season. Right. It feels like Chelsea's the moral compass. Season one, it was the Daddario character.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mike White thinks it's. No, definitely not.

[Bill Simmons]

Who was it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Probably Quinn.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mike White thinks it's Belinda this season. That's what he says.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was it?

[Bill Simmons]

I like Dadario.

[Mallory Rubin]

She goes back to her husband who she didn't love.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I felt Bad for her until she went back to she knew, but.

[Bill Simmons]

She knew right from wrong for most of the episodes and then kind of begrudgingly ended up in this life that she didn't want to begin with.

[Joanna Robinson]

But then I, like, lose, then I lose my life. That'd be Chelsea, maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, yeah, I. They're all complex.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's take a break because we got to hit Sam Rockwell. This episode is brought to you by Hookah. I've got to talk to you guys about the Bondi 9, the new daily trainer from Hookah. The Bondi 9 delivers peak plushness for everyday miles. Overhauled from top to bottom, they've increased the stack height and added a new premium foam midsole to deliver that soft, resilient ride that's become synonymous with the Bondi. And look, I walk a lot. I walk all around la. You need good shoes for that. These are perfect, Everybody. Bondi. Visit hooka.comh o k a.com to learn more about the Bondi 9. All right, our guy, Sam Rockwell, who moved to Thailand because he had think for Asian girls and became insatiable and then questioned desire. What is desire? I could fuck a million women and never be satisfied. Maybe what I want is to be one of those Asian girls. And we just go and we go and we go and we go and we keep going.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yep, I am her. And I am fucking me.

[Bill Simmons]

Guys would rail the out of me. I'd hire an Asian girl. I'd look in her eyes and say, I am her. I'm me. But then he ends the whole monologue and he goes, hey, we have. We all have our Achilles heels.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yep.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Goggins is like, still miss that man.

[Bill Simmons]

Wild.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Incredible stuff from Goggins.

[Bill Simmons]

So is this it for Rockwell or we see him again?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I think definitely back.

[Joanna Robinson]

Definitely back.

[Bill Simmons]

Gives him the bag with the gun.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah. Has to play. The director needs him to come back.

[Bill Simmons]

To play a role.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which. So what do you think play a role means?

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, so when he was. Yeah, when he was talking to Sitala back when he was originally, he's like, I got a friend who's a director.

[Mallory Rubin]

In Bangkok to gain access to her husband, Jim Hollinger, who definitely he believes killed his dad. But.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he mentions how he got into Buddhism. One thing I was thinking about with this show is people assuming different identities.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a weird season. It's a weird thing about this season. You have Greg, Gary, you have this guy talking about it. You have Rick, who's about to Go one way or the other. You have Locky trying to figure out his identity.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

You have Jason Isaacs, whose identity is about to end.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, no, no, but he lost his identity because, like, his identity was, I'm a big swinging dick. I'm, like, the provider. I'm the dad. I'm. I'm a leader at the club. I'm a pillar of the community. I got lineage. And now I'm nothing poor. I'm broke.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was what was so sad about him trying to compel Saxon to turn over his phone by being like, we can figure out how to provide something more. And having to confront that. Like, he didn't actually feel like he had that. But that book. We talked about this last week. But that book that Piper is reading, and that comes back into play in this episode so memorably, like, here is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Identity is a prison.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so Zion's coming.

[Mallory Rubin]

No man is spared this prison.

[Bill Simmons]

Zion's coming. In episode six, I would assume Linda's son.

[Mallory Rubin]

Y.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's. And then we see him in one of those therapy sessions beginning.

[Joanna Robinson]

She said. She said, just come on in. That's what she said. She said, just come straight to the villa.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she has a overnight guest.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah, but he. How. How long's the flight from Maui to Thailand?

[Bill Simmons]

A thousand hours. I mean, that just seems like that would be the longest flight ever.

[Mallory Rubin]

Take him a while to get there, I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, no, actually, Is there any way to Thailand that's not. 20 hours? This is one of the many reasons I'll never. No. Never find out.

[Mallory Rubin]

One day and one hour, according to Google.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you think Sam Rockwell and our guy Rick. Like, what's. What do you think? The whole background of those con men.

[Joanna Robinson]

They used to party together. Yeah, he used to party wild.

[Bill Simmons]

Where do you think they lived?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no, no, no. Home base. Citizens just bounce around.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Texas, California.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, where did they start?

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't go to Australia. Had to leave the States.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, the west and the south their way around. Yeah. A couple different countries.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no question. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But it felt like they hadn't seen each other for a few years.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So what do you think Rick's W2 form was for the last 10 years?

[Mallory Rubin]

This and that. This and that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Yeah. So, Sam Rock. Sam Rockwell's Californian. And I just. I was just curious. Walton Goggins, Southern boy.

[Bill Simmons]

Anything else we wanted to say about Sam Rockwell? Anything Mike White was trying to do with that monologue that I might have missed?

[Joanna Robinson]

Shock and dismay. And like, not dismay, but, like, shock people. Shock people with two brothers kissing. Shock people with this monologue from Sam Rockwell. And I'm still trying to figure out, like, I love this show. I'm still trying to figure out what it is Mike White is trying to do with this. Like, he's given interviews about it, but, like, this idea that he wants to make queer sex transgressive and shocking, I. I still don't fully understand what his motivation is behind it, but that is something that he want. He wants to. Just like he. What do you call it? Borderline edge Lord mentality is what he called it about himself. And so I just think that's.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, don't you think part of that ties in with how he came up with this whole idea when he was in, like, a fever dream in Thailand?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But maybe this whole season, like just that crazy fever. Fever.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the. Well, I'm sure he'll talk about it more after the season, or maybe not. But, like the. The fever dream part of it feels like all of the particular trappings of how to interrogate the core themes that he's been interested in since day one. So I think that's actually what's interesting to me about the Rick and Frank conversation moving forward is like, what impact does. What all what he just heard have on Rick. You know, the nature of desire in their circumstances is very different, but Rick is also a character who's being driven by desire. Right. Like vengeance is a type of desire, the desire to avenge your family, to enact and exact revenge on the person you think has wronged you. Does what he hear, coupled with the conversations he's had with Chelsea, coupled with the sessions that he had with Amrita, balance him and pull him back when he's staring down the barrel of the gun, looking into Jim Hollinger's eyes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And also this question of identity and who am I? Am I. Am I the son of a vague, do Gooder? Like this sort of thing? Am I the son of Jim Hollinger or something that he might discover when. When he comes face to face with him? Or can I choose to be something else? Which is what Amrita was like, suggesting to him is like, you could break this karmic cycle. You don't have to do this right now.

[Bill Simmons]

No. And we think Scott Glenn is his dad.

[Joanna Robinson]

I definitely think that's true.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then at the end, Tim's writing a suicide note with the gun on the desk. Did you think he was going to do it? I actually did.

[Joanna Robinson]

I Don't know, it's like it's episode five and it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, this is what we talked about last week. Like exactly this. Like that he would attempt it but. Or start to attempt it or. But something would. Would halt him, which is, you know, exactly what happens.

[Bill Simmons]

You haven't been acting like yourself, Tim. Oh really? He hasn't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thanks for checking in.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been a fucking maniac for three years.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it gives us that moment earlier in the season of him being driven to that point of. Of supreme desperation, feeling like he had no other path forward. And then now three episodes to potentially make a different decision. But also that gun is in that room.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's also really interesting that like he. Both he and Chelsea have this. Like Chelsea has a speech to Chloe where she's like, Rick is always walking around like a sad sack. Like everything. You know, she's like, bad things have happened to me. You don't see me walking around complaining about it. First of all, we don't know anything about Chelsea's life at all.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

So like, what did happen to her? And also she's throwing herself a little bit of a pity party in that moment while she's saying, yeah, you don't see me complaining. And all she's complaining right now. And then you. And then we see Tim here at the end of the episode be like, I've had all this pressure on me this my whole life. There's never been a minute where I haven't been expected to, you know, achieve.

[Bill Simmons]

From day one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, from day one. And it's just sort of like my guy, this lack of self awareness running around.

[Mallory Rubin]

But he is.

[Bill Simmons]

Grandfather was a governor in North Carolina.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. He's like from this like proud line of Carolinian greats. And it was interesting to hear Vicki describe him as a boy scout last episode to Piper, you know, you don't know how lucky you are. And then to hear him say to Piper this episode, like, I literally was an altar boy.

[Joanna Robinson]

And to have sings beautifully.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then we get to hear that hymn again in the end credits. But yeah, like that the characters are also different, but the fact that they are all grappling with that question of who am I? Who do I. Who has the world made me feel I have to be? And then are any of them actually able to rebel against that?

[Bill Simmons]

You left out one question. Please God, tell me what to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

What should I do?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that gun being in that room still makes me really nervous. Like, I do not feel like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because you're like A monkey's gonna come in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I'm like, is Saxon gonna shoot Locky? Like, is Saxon gonna find that gun and be like, what did you do to me? Like, that feels completely poison smoothie out. It's poison smoothie still in the poison Mason until the moment the final credits. But, like, you know, we are only five episodes in. Five episodes is a lot. But mere five hours ago, we were like, lacky this beautiful innocent in the center of this family tug of war.

[Bill Simmons]

Dating into the Apatow family in real life. This guy has it all together.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, this is the theme of the. A lot of the visions we've seen in the opening credits of, like, vulnerable animals actually becoming, like, sort of predators, which I think is interesting. And then the predator becoming the prey. So if you think about, like, Saxon in his sort of, like, alpha predator mode at the beginning of the season, and then like, he's just stumbling around bleary eyed, saying, don't take advantage of me inside of this episode. I think that's really interesting and upsetting and I. I am very nervous. Was. Can I run one theory by you that I think is interesting?

[Bill Simmons]

We're at the point of the pod. We're ready for it. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you ready?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. It's a shootout.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's say it's not monkeys. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Monkeys fighting over poison smoothies.

[Joanna Robinson]

What if Belinda gets in touch with Interpol? I don't know how, but, like, calls the authorities on Greg. Gary.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tim thinks the authorities are there for him. The feds are there for him. Rick thinks the authorities are there for him because of whatever happens in Bangkok.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So at least three different rooms. Think the police is there for them.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And we have like a Tarantino shootout.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And Fabian tells Hollinger's guards to shoot the interpolations because he's like, protect the hotel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Protect the hotel.

[Mallory Rubin]

That actually, to me, like, one thing that I didn't think totally tracked in this episode. Belinda going to Fabian for help.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Her.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, like, you can go call the cops on your own. Right. She doesn't actually need him to do that for her.

[Bill Simmons]

So.

[Mallory Rubin]

But like, delaying her maybe doing that until we're closer to the event.

[Bill Simmons]

18 hours to Google them. Like, it might take her five weeks to call the cops.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. But I think that that supports the. The Joe's theory. Because if she delays and it takes her a day or two to work up the courage to do that, or she does it next episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Really good theory, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like a day. Another day or two for them. To show up.

[Joanna Robinson]

My theory is a theory that's floating around. But I like this idea of the authorities take credit for it.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

I like the theory that the authorities show up and there's so many different people who could be like, oh shit, Right. The feds are here.

[Bill Simmons]

Not to mention like the Russians could be there too.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep. All the expats on the yacht.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Russians could be like, oh no, the cops are here because we smashed and grabbed the boutique.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, here's what we have just for next episode. The gun. What's going to happen to it? Is it going to stay in the room?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Is the night on the boat still going? Did it end? What are people gonna say to each other next day? Yeah, we know we have some sort of Muay Thai fight event that people are going to go to that the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fancies are going to.

[Bill Simmons]

We know that we might have a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Bunch of the hotel and Mook are going to.

[Bill Simmons]

So a bunch of stuff there.

[Mallory Rubin]

So we think Gaitok will spot the robbers there.

[Bill Simmons]

Then we know the fancies. There's gonna be some sort of what happened last night. Or could have the Valentin leaving her room and the other one sees it. We could be in secret cat fight mode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, what is it? Triangle of trust.

[Bill Simmons]

Trust triangle's done.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. How are we gonna find out? Will she see it? Will she see the text?

[Bill Simmons]

She's gonna finish scratching her ass.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, see him leave in the morning.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, see him leave. We have the brothers hashing out whatever the hell happened with them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We have Belinda versus Greg Gary. And then we're in Bangkok and the magic moment with Rick and Scott Glenn we've been waiting for potentially Sam Rockwell coming back.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have Vicki and Tim going to.

[Joanna Robinson]

The monastery with Piper.

[Mallory Rubin]

They've told her they would go the next day.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I didn't even think about that one. So we have seven things in the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Air right now, but him, on the heels of praying to God for guidance, is about to head into a monastery. Like, what impact might that have?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm really excited about this. We talked about this earlier. This idea of like is really Rick open to some sort of spiritual awakening. Is Tim open to some spiritual awakening?

[Bill Simmons]

Cuz the the therapist was getting to him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, but like, is Tim Ratliff the last person on our list? Well, actually, Saxon's my last, but he was like the second to last person on my list of someone who might have a spiritual awakening at the White Lotus. Is he about to have some sort of moment?

[Bill Simmons]

So Saxon's your Number one least redeemable White Lotus character?

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's your number one then?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Gary who did a murder? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Tiny was pretty annoying though. I don't know. I think. Can I make the case for Greg? Gary? No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who's your least redeemable White Lotus character?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so if Saxon got violated on the boat, that's.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I'm feeling for him right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I mean, both of them were completely fucked up, right? My guess is they're going to wake up in the morning and do the. What happened last night? Maybe Lock, you remember a little more. I think Saxon doesn't even remember what happened.

[Mallory Rubin]

He might pretend he doesn't because he's ashamed. But he will remember. There have to be. There has to be fallout. He's got to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Chloe are right there with the twirling.

[Mallory Rubin]

The twirling evil mustache with her strand of hair. To your point about the Predator and the prey, the fact that like, it's not just that Locky became the Predator, it's that Saxon handed him all the tools and like has to confront that now. And he, like Lockheed, has become the person that Saxon wanted him to be. But Saxon is the one who suffering.

[Bill Simmons]

Cocktails and he needed ecstasy and molly and nine other things. I don't know if it's gonna last. My guess is Lock is going to be completely mortified the next day.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think so. I think this is an awakening for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think he's on drugs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Grim, Mallory. Quite grim.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not like incest is my thing every single day of the week, but I.

[Joanna Robinson]

Think he's just my thing.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's crazy fucked up.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm going for what I want. Like people are here to use me. Hopefully not. Or for. For me to use them. Like, hopefully not. Hopefully he's still like, you know what? I could go to just NC State after all. I still can make that choice.

[Joanna Robinson]

My thing on this is like. Like if. If they go further than this, if we get a challengers or an it sort of situation, there is no coming that is with you for the rest of your life. Because those two things you mentioned, I really hope are not brothers.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're. They're transgressive in their own right. But it's not two brothers.

[Mallory Rubin]

Friends.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very close friends.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. So what are you most excited about for the last episode, for our next episode before we go? I'm most excited for Rick and Sam Rockwell in Bangkok doing whatever they're gonna do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do magic men.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm also excited for fight night. I think those are my two.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fight night's a really good call, I think. I love a con personally, so whatever that's gonna be. And I love Scott Glenn, so, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I am really excited about that too. I, I just am. I think I'm most invested in the Ratliff storyline at this point. Wow. Yeah, I just.

[Joanna Robinson]

What happens on the boat, that's what you want to know. Well, I'm dying for a monastery tour.

[Mallory Rubin]

I, I, I, I tell you guys, we step back and I tell the two of you, we will see Parker Posey's Victoria Ratliff enter a monastery in Phuket, Thailand, next.

[Bill Simmons]

That sound amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

That sounds great.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're. And you say, you say, I'm prepared for the best hour TV of my life.

[Bill Simmons]

Are we going to get to hear her say Phuket? What's it called?

[Mallory Rubin]

She will for sure say something.

[Bill Simmons]

She'll have five things.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think then she would have to know they were in Thailand in order to say that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Taiwan.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. It's going to be a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Can't wait. Prestige TV podcast. Mallory, Joanna, pleasure as always. Thanks to everybody behind the scenes. Don't forget, you can watch this as a video podcast every week on Spotify. And what is it? Ringer Dash TV is our YouTube channel. I hope you guys are wrong about the foursome. I hope we're done. I hope everyone's asleep. We will find out next week. Wrap it up on the White Lotus recap.