'The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5 Deep Dive and Theories: Sam Rockwell and the Best TV Monologues Ever

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prestige TV Podcast Episode: 'The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5 Deep Dive and Theories: Sam Rockwell and the Best TV Monologues Ever
Release Date: March 19, 2025
Host: Joanna Robinson & Rob Mahoney
Produced by: The Ringer

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Introduction

In this episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosts Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney delve deep into Season 3, Episode 5 of HBO's "The White Lotus", titled "Full Moon Party." The discussion encompasses plot developments, character dynamics, thematic explorations, and viewer theories. Additionally, the hosts venture into a lively segment on memorable TV monologues, inviting listener contributions and expert insights.

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Episode Overview

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney kick off their analysis by highlighting the significant events that transpire during the Full Moon Party within the episode. They touch upon the chaotic interactions among guests and staff, setting the stage for deeper discussions.

Rob Mahoney:
"That's accurate. You know, many things happened at said full moon party and around it. There's a lot to get into."
[01:36]

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Character Analysis and Dynamics

Sam Rockwell's Character

A focal point of the episode is Sam Rockwell's character, whose performance garners mixed feelings from Rob. While his monologues are praised, Rob expresses a desire for more depth in other characters.

Rob Mahoney:
"I think it has the individual highlight of the entire season so far...I am starting to feel a little bit of a lull, and I find myself wanting other characters throughout this cast to get similarly emotive moments."
[04:51]

Locky and Saxon Brothers

The complex relationship between the Locky and Saxon brothers is scrutinized, especially their ambiguous romantic interaction at the yacht. Joanna and Rob discuss the implications of their actions and potential future developments.

Joanna Robinson:
"They did that kiss aggressively. Would you describe that as a makeout?"
[06:10]
Rob Mahoney:
"I think there's candidates...many, many horrible things could happen involving brothers."
[06:34]

Piper's Character Development

The episode also explores Piper's introspection and her contrasting lifestyle choices compared to her partying brothers. Joanna references a listener's interpretation, prompting Rob to share his thoughts on Piper's journey.

Rob Mahoney:
"Piper is still finding where she even fits into all that and what she believes and what like what she can even reasonably achieve."
[08:22]

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Themes and Thematic Monologues

Identity and Self-Actualization

A central theme is the exploration of identity, particularly through Lachlan's struggles and Sam Rockwell's philosophical monologue. The hosts dissect how characters grapple with self-perception and societal expectations.

Rob Mahoney:
"Some people in this world just want to be used... defining themselves by this story that his mom told him."
[51:28]

Queer Relationships and Representation

Rob and Joanna discuss the portrayal of queer relationships in the show, appreciating the complexity and messiness that "The White Lotus" brings to the table, contrasting it with more sanitized representations in mainstream media.

Rob Mahoney:
"I just want these characters to have the full complexion of sexual experience... something that feels weird."
[12:20]

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Listener Contributions and Expert Insights

Emails and Theories

Listeners contribute theories and interpretations, enriching the discussion. Notable emails include insights into Lachlan's character influenced by literature and the symbolic significance of songs and imagery used in the episode.

Joanna Robinson:
"Lee, wrote in to say one of the core aspects of Hunger is this figure of the wanderer... how Lachlan could 'get away' similar to Quinn in season one."
[13:05]

Expert Analysis on Monologues

The hosts read and analyze listener-submitted monologues, comparing them to iconic TV moments. They highlight how "The White Lotus" integrates philosophical dialogues within its narrative structure.

Rob Mahoney:
"It's a great monologue. It's incredibly well written."
[46:48]
Joanna Robinson:
"I was just missing that emotional investment to make it, like, a full home run for."
[46:45]

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Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Rob Mahoney on Sam Rockwell's Monologue:
   "I will take a big, juicy Sam Rockwell monologue wherever and whenever I can get it."
   [04:51]

2. Joanna Robinson on Identity Themes:
   "Identity is a prison, rich man, poor man sort of thing inside of the show."
   [53:15]

3. Rob Mahoney on Episode Highlights:
   "This episode, it feels like it's just sort of like, give us people that we recognize an extreme comedy version of them."
   [23:28]

4. Joanna on Piper's Transformation:
   "Piper is cloistering herself in a way that is preventing her from living a normal 20-something life."
   [07:50]

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The Best TV Monologues Ever

In a dedicated segment, Joanna and Rob compile a list of iconic TV monologues, drawing from various beloved series. They reflect on what makes a monologue impactful, emphasizing the importance of character investment and emotional resonance.

Joanna Robinson:
"For me, a great TV monologue is not just, like, beautiful writing or thematically resonant. It is a character moment."
[46:22]

Rob Mahoney:
"I think white lotus gets accused of this sometimes. I'm missing that emotional investment to make it, like, a full home run for."
[46:45]

Highlighted Monologues Include:

• Nora Durst in The Leftovers
• Jaime Lannister in Game of Thrones
• Carmi’s monologue in The Bear
• Chuck’s courtroom meltdown in Better Call Saul
• Don Draper’s "Carousel" speech in Mad Men
• Fleabag’s Confessional

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Concluding Thoughts

Joanna and Rob wrap up the episode by expressing their anticipation for future developments in "The White Lotus" and the enduring impact of Sam Rockwell's performance. They emphasize the show's ability to blend dark humor with deep character studies, leaving listeners eager for the next installment.

Rob Mahoney:
"The writing is on the wall. It all makes sense as to how he would end up on the sidelines in Thailand and they would just tap him in for a great scene."
[45:29]

Joanna Robinson:
"All right, what else do you want to talk about? What's on your list to talk about?"
[31:11]

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Key Takeaways

• "The White Lotus" continues to explore complex character dynamics and thematic depth, particularly around identity and personal struggles.
• Sam Rockwell's character delivers a standout monologue that serves as both a thematic statement and a pivotal character moment, though opinions vary on its emotional impact.
• The show effectively incorporates listener theories and expert insights, enriching the overall analysis.
• The segment on TV monologues underscores the importance of character-driven moments that resonate emotionally with audiences.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the core discussions and analyses presented in the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors. Flavors Thai Iced Coffee and Pina Colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're here to talk to you about White Lotus Season 3, Episode 5 Full Moon Party. Right? Is that right?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's accurate. You know, many things happened at said full moon party and around it. There's a lot to get into.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a lot to get into. I just want to let you know that there's a lot to get into in television these days. And so I just want to let folks know. Seamless transition, right, Rob? I just want to let people know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right into the depths of our personal despair, because that is the natural transition point.

[Joanna Robinson]

I want people know what's going on in the Prestige feed right now. Obviously, as we've mentioned many weeks in a row now we're double dipping on White Lotus. So there's Sunday night. Bill, Mal and Joanna. You can't skip past this. This. There's new information on here. Sunday, Bill, Mal, Joanna, instant reaction to White Lotus later in the week. Rob. Joanna, this podcast, podcast, the. The deep dive into White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, they know about that one. They're currently listening to it.

[Joanna Robinson]

The one you currently listen to. Adolescence Emergency pod drop for a four episode Netflix series. Adolescent dropped over the weekend. And Rob and I dropped an episode about that yesterday. If you're listening to this on Wednesday, we dropped it on Tuesday. It's in the feed. You can listen to that also this week. Rob, today, if you're listening to this Wednesday Morning Fresh as it drops into your feed, as you should in a few hours. In a few scant hours, Rob and I will be doing a live Q and a sort of like lunchtime severance pre finale extravaganza where you can find us on Ringer TV on Spot On. Nope, let me do that again. You can find us on Ringer TV on YouTube and that is where we will be taking your questions and you know, just talking about what we think is gonna come in the finale for severance and how we think the season is going and all of that. Rob, anything you want to say with the live mailbag Q A thing?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say, I would say just that there's still time to get your questions and theories into us in advance of that Q and A. Of course you can stop by, drop them in the chat. You can also email [e-mail] or for severance specifically pineapplebobbingmail.com and of course, as we know for White Lotus, specifically monkeyshootoutmail.com is that enough cross traffic email? Am I creating a jam here, Jo?

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I mean, we've not created a special email for adolescents. We've spared the people that. So that's a one off pod.

[Rob Mahoney]

I simply will not, given the subject matter of that show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct. And also, so then our Severance finale coverage, the Robin Joanna Severance finale pod, is dropping Thursday night. If all goes according to plan, some of us, including me, will be covering the studio in this fiend and then we'll have, you know, some severance wrap up next week as well. So I don't know if that was as coherent as it might have been, but there's a lot going on and I don't know. Here's what I think you should do. Subscribe to the POD and just click on every single episode and listen to all of them. Why not do that?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a great idea. This is not the week for coherence, Joe. This is the week to take some party drugs, to get out there under the full moon and to live our.

[Joanna Robinson]

Best life and just party out. Okay, Rob, I have already had a chance to tell people what I think about this episode with Bill and Mallon Sunday. What did you, Rob Mahoney, think of episode five of White Lotus?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it has the individual highlight of the entire season so far, and I have kind of mixed feelings about where that highlight is coming from relative to the rest of the story. You know, it feels a little bit wrong that I know more more about Sam Rockwell's character from five Minutes than basically any other character in the field of play through five episodes. And so I don't know how to process all that because I will take a big, juicy Sam Rockwell monologue wherever and whenever I can get it. But I am starting to feel a little bit of a lull, and I find myself wanting other characters throughout this cast to get similarly emotive moments. I want them to have their big, juicy monologues.

[Joanna Robinson]

So who in this episode could have, you know, use that screen time for their own juicy monologue?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we are. We are destined toward one of the fancies. Maybe Laurie specifically. Entering into monologue territory. I'm going to say the partiers are not quite in the right state of mind to be overly verbose at this point in time, but one could be coming from at least one of the two brothers who may or may not have made out on a yacht throughout this episode. So I think there's candidates.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm saying may or may not, as if you. You're like, well, building a legal case against them, allegedly. We saw them make out, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

They did that kiss aggressively. Would you describe that as a makeout?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, fine. A share to smooch, Definitely.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, smooch is the initial approach, and then the circle back for a. Definitely a more aggressive play. I just. I don't know if it crossed the line into make out. I don't know what tongues may or may not have been involved the duration. I think there's, like, a very strict legal definition of makeout, and this did not quite meet the criteria.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. Well, definitely not. It definitely doesn't rise to Hook Up.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's no doubt. At least not from what we've seen. I think that's what's most worrying about. All the yacht encounters that night is still ongoing. We have no idea what's about to transpire as we bleed into episode six. Maybe it's a flash forward and we never actually see it, but we see the aftermath of it. Many, many horrible things could happen involving brothers. And I continue to be incredibly concerned about the entire family dynamic, brothers included.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Okay. I have a good question for you about a scene that Mal, Mallory and I both flagged and we weren't sure we really understood. And I'm curious for your take on it. As the brothers are partying, there is like, a quick but lingering flash to Piper back home. Yes, Piper back in the room. All right. And, you know, we've got the. The fancies are out partying, and then Bringing the party back to their villa. We've got the Full Moon boat partiers and then we've got Piper, Belinda. A few other people are like having their own sort of moments and experiences back in inside of the safe walls of the White Lotus. What's your interpretation of that flash to Piper? What do you think the show is trying to say with that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it felt foreboding.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought so, a little bit. But I mean, it could be as simple as a contrast piece right of the pipe. The life that Piper is choosing for herself, or believes she's choosing for herself, juxtaposed against here's what her brothers are up to, here's what the other hotel guests are getting up to Rally. She is cloistering herself in a way that is preventing her from living a normal 20something life. And I know we've talked about it before, Joe, but I am definitely still of the opinion that she is going to circle back to that life by the end of the series.

[Joanna Robinson]

Normal? I mean, by what definition of normal? So this, this is what I wanted to come back to because I was listening to the official pod, which is co hosted by Gia Tolentino, who is like a brilliant writer, journalist, wonderful person, also much more of a party girl than I've ever been. So, like, her take on things was like the. The boys are out there living the thing that Piper is sort of studying to achieve, that the boys are achieving by going out, leaving the walls of the White Lotus, pursuing pleasure, pursuing joy. Whereas Piper's like, I need to study for a year to figure out what it is I want or I need or I care about. And as the like lifelong Kate in her PJs at the pool party or Piper doesn't go on, on the drug orgy boat myself, I was like, is it? But I mean, I don't know, what do you think of that interpretation?

[Rob Mahoney]

I kind of like it in the sense that like a chemically altered kind of like self actualization, like, I would pay money to worry as little as Saxon worries in life. To navigate life that way seems very freeing, seems very liberating. And so I agree in the sense of there is a big philosophical clash between Lachlan and Saxon at the heart of this episode as far as like, the using people versus, like, what is the purpose of a life and kind of how it fits into the grand scheme of the universe. And I actually think Sam Rockwell's big monologue is almost sort of a refutation into that debate and we can get to that later. But Piper is in so many ways, like to circle this conversation. She's still finding where she even fits into all that and what she believes and what like what she can even reasonably achieve with not just the means that she has, which we know are significant given her family, but is she actually going to invest spiritually in this quest that she has set out to. To invest in?

[Joanna Robinson]

She's invested intellectually, but is she going to be able to sort of put the rest, for instance, side of it?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. You mentioned to me that you want to talk about something that I raised with Bill and Mal about the not yet a make out, definitely more than a smooch moment between Lockheed and Saxon. This idea that Mike White has, you know, in it was an interview he gave. I mean, I think he said it a few different times, but the one that I sort of sourced was from last season. And he was talking about this idea of making queer sex transgressive, that it was something that was interesting to him as a queer creator, that that was something that he was interested in. I will just say before I really want to hear what you say you think about this, but we recorded Bill and Mel and I recorded that before we were able to sort of see people's reactions to this. And I have seen some reactions of like, can we just have like a straightforward queer relationship in a White Lotus season or at least male queer relationship because you know, there's definitely some, some stuff going on in season two for the ladies anyway. So what do you want to say about this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say that none of the relationships in White Lotus are very straightforward. And that's what I love about this show. And we're at a point in media right now overall where for very well meaning purposes, I think a lot of the queer love we see on screen is very swee. Right. Like that. That is the overall gesture, I would say, of the direction that in terms of portraying those relationships there's a, a very sanitized version of a queer relationship that we see a lot in kind of a rom com sort of setting. I think that is wonderful and I'm glad it exists. I also want some stuff that feels weird. I also want kind of the full complexion of sexual experience for these characters. Like I think about a series like Looking, which was on HBO about a decade ago. And I, I love Looking and I don't know that it would exist if it were kind of brought to market today. I think some, some elements of that show which are not radical but are messy in the way their relationships are messy would be kind of.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, it didn't even. It didn't even thrive the way it should have when it originally aired.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very true.

[Joanna Robinson]

I remember my colleague at the time at Vanny Fair, Richard Lawson, wrote this great piece about how, like, we let looking down by not like engaging with it the way that he really wanted people to. So, yeah, I thought that was interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just want these characters to. I want something more than your red, white and royal blues and your heart stoppers. And I feel like that's overall the kind of momentum of what queer love looks on screen in a lot of cases right now. Your Love Simons, which again, are great. I also want stilted and messy because queer sex is sex and that sex is a power dynamic. That sex is an exchange between two people who are constantly jostling for something. And I think in some cases it should be provocative.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think you mean it's a poetic act. I believe it is also a poetic act of Sam Rockwell. I think this is a good segue into an email we got from a listener about Hunger, the book that Lachlan Locky was reading last week that we brushed against on the Pod last week. But one of our listeners, Lee, wrote in to say one of the core aspects of Hunger is this figure of the wanderer, someone who is adrift and in many ways simply responding to immediate events without having a clear sense of direction. In one of Sam Navola's interviews, if I recall correctly, he characterizes Lachlan as adrift and directionless. And this book choice seems to emphasize that. As for the quote, darkness within, in Hampson's novel, this is more kind of insanity rather than any kind of evil. However, I'm on Incest Watch 2025, so I'm super interested in the character's tendency to misunderstand human connection as romantic. He becomes obsessed in. In the book, he becomes obsessed with a woman who doesn't know he is who he is. At one point, he routinely puts people off with his intensity. Maybe this is also meant to be saying something about Saxon. Interestingly, the main character in Hunger boards a boat at the end of the book, heading away from what he knows into an uncertain future. So maybe Lachlan could, quote, get away in a similar way to Quinn in season one. I'm not too sure about this, especially given, given people's tendencies to stay put in White Lotus. I'll be looking out for that as well. So what is your interpretation? Sam Navola has been giving some interviews sort of about, like where he thinks Lachlan's head is inside of this exchange, but I found his performance really interesting. And I think to me it read, you know, with the lighting, the hellish lighting and all this other stuff like this, but it read is somewhat sinister. How did, how did that performance read to you?

[Rob Mahoney]

I didn't get quite sinister, but definitely assertive in a way that we're just not used to seeing from Lockyer. Right. This whole idea that he would never have the upper hand with Saxon in any other phase of their relationship, but when kind of chemically equalized by their circumstances, now all of a sudden there is enough chaos happening that he can seize a moment he's at least been thinking about in some context for a long time. Joe, another thing I thought that you mentioned on the Sunday pod that I thought was really well observed was this idea of, does Laki want to be with Saxon? Does he want to be Saxon? Does he kind of have contempt for Saxon? I think he's working through a lot of conflicting emotions as to who this person is in his life because he fills a lot of different voids at this point in time.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that. Thank you so much for liking that. And I think one of our listeners, Brian, drew a connection between that idea and Sam Rockwell's monologue, which is sort of like, do I want to fuck an Asian woman or do I want to be an Asian woman? Like what you know? Or do I want to be the person watching me want get like, like all this sort of stuff, identity as a prison and this idea of sort of breaking out of any of those prisons. But, but this idea from the start, the earliest episode one, Lachlan Saxon vibes are off moment, felt like a do I want to be this person? Am I admiring this person's physique because I want it to be my own physique, or am I admiring it because I sexually desire it? And it seems to me with Lachi's sort of like people pleasing body language that we, that we got to earlier in the season, his uncertainty, his. Him being pulled between the, the women in his family and the men in his family, like all the sort of back and forth, this fluidity of gender identity question, I think all of that is really in play and interesting inside of a culture that at least from like a tourist POV of Thailand is a place for sexual exploration and gender exploration.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. And again, there's so much like juxtaposing of masculine, feminine in all of these episodes. But I would say especially in this one, and it's not just the Sam Rockwell monologue. I would even say everything that's going on with the fancies, which is very much a. I don't know what. Do you have a preferred alternative to bros before hoes? Joe, like, what is the counterpoint? I've heard the chicks before dicks. I've heard sisters before misters. Do you have a preference of this specific?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I mean, I think chicks before dicks is pretty good. I wish I had like, a rhyming one ready that rhymes with like, fancies or. Mallory started calling him the Cougs Fancies before Mancy's.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the idea of going on a girls trip and undermining one of your friends and scooping out basically a guy from practically underneath her is undermined or underhanded. Not just in a very Jacqueline way, but in a very masculine, feminine, like, adversarial kind of way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I think it's interesting. We did. We also got an email from our listener Matt about. He was the question. The. The. The subject line of the email is so evocative, which is like, who are the sharks? Meaning, like, in these tapestries that we see in the. In the opening credits, like, we see all these predators. And so this question of, like, Saxon as a predator when we see him in the pool at the beginning of the. The season versus prey. Don't take advantage of me is what he says as he, like, takes these drugs and stuff. Like, this Jacqueline is as clearly a predator. But, like, how will that predator, you know, are we. Are we underestimating what kind of predator Lori could be? Yeah, we get. We get a section in this episode where Laurie is talking to Valentin and Alexi in the pool and she's talking about what a hot shit lawyer she is. And like, you know, what a big deal she is. And. And there's. There's a moment in that that makes me so sad because Carrie Coon was talking about this in the official podcast. This idea of, like, the storyline of the fancies is like, these women who have all made choices, and it's the perfect. The perfect way for you to second guess your choices is to hang out with a woman who is in your demographic, came from exactly where you came from. You have known your whole life. She made one choice, you made another. Laurie as someone who is disappointed in where her life has turned out according to Carrie Coon, which bums me out because I was hoping that Laurie felt like she was doing fine, but I guess she doesn't. Um, and so you thought by the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bottle of chard a day, she thought she was doing fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just. Rooting for you always, Laurie. Any. Any Carrie Coon character, I'm rooting for you. But, like, that. That Valentine and Alexi were, like, laughing about her paying alimony, and she's like, ahaha. And I was just like, fuck them, you know? And, like, I just want Laurie to be fully in her power.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I don't know what's gonna happen if. If she find.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is she gonna find out that she's gonna find out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

She was so close. Like, this is as close as we've seen her to being in her power, right? To really letting loose, to having her moment, to getting some validation and some attention that I think she. She. She kind of desperately needs at this point in time, but in a really positive way that she created for herself. And to have Jacqueline, who never for a second was gonna let one of her friends have something that she wanted, swoop in. It's. It's so gross. But it's gross in a way that I like all the ways that I love this dynamic. I love. I love that Kate is in full pajama set, waiting on the sidelines just to go to sleep. I love that Jacqueline does what she does because, like, that feels so true to that character. And I'm just. I am waiting for Laurie's moment to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Go back to your. Like, who? What? Like, what juicy monologue do I want to see? I want to see a juicy Laurie monologue, like, telling Jaclyn about herself. You know what I mean? And, like, the thing about what Jacqueline does, it is so vile and so recognizable as behavior that we have seen versions of in people that we know. And this is the thing that White Lotus does better than anyone else, which is just sort of like, give us people that we recognize an extreme comedy version of them. But, like, we know these people, you know? And I don't think anyone. I mean, I don't know that I know anyone who's kissed their brother, smooched and more. Plus their brother.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe they just haven't talked about it. You know, what. What happens in Thailand stays in Thailand, or so I've been told.

[Joanna Robinson]

I doubt that that's going to be the case, but. But we'll see. Did you see that literary legend Joyce Carol Oates put up a tweet about White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

What did she say?

[Joanna Robinson]

I love how active Joyce Carol Oates is on social media. It's really funny.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't. She's a little too online. We're all a little too online, but, Joyce, you don't have to do this like we do.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, that's why. Because she's Joyce Carol Oates, and she has no business doing any of this, and she does it anyway.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just want better for her. I want her to be on a yacht somewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

She says, I highly recommend the White Lotus for lonely persons who fantasize how wonderful it would be to, one, be in a romantic relationship with someone, to be in an affluent family with three mostly grown children. Three, have two close girlfriends whom you've known forever and love. After 10 minutes of white Lotus, you are weeping with relief that you are not. You are. You are alone and not with these literally unbearable people. So, yeah, this one goes out to people who live their life in isolation. White Lotus is for you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will say I find them quite bearable at this distance. These are not people you want in your life in close proximity. But the thing about Jacqueline that's so interesting to me is I am obviously not a part of these sorts of female friendships, but not as of yet. But life is long. There is something about her and just her desperate desire to win that transcends, I think, any sort of relationship. And it's like she clearly has a main character syndrome thing happening in which everyone is an accessory to her story that you see all over the place. But how competitive she is, you know, even with just, like, making eyes at these, like, younger Russian ladies across the room. And it's like, I have to beat them. Not just my friends, not just everyone back home, not just everyone who might be vying for my husband's attention and affections. I have to beat these ladies, too. I am constantly in battle.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love the contrast between the way she's dancing and the way that Laurie's dancing. Let's leave Kate aside for a moment and say that, like, the way that Jacqueline is just. It's a performance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Everything she's done the entire series, basically.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lori is performing, but, like. But then there are also just moments where Laurie is just, like, wild and out for herself.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, she's like two Shia labeoufs. Beyond just being able to perform, like, she's in a zone.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. And I just. I. There's something pure about that for me. But honestly, everyone on White Lotus disappoints me eventually. So, Lori, I'm rooting for you, but I'm sure you piss me off at some point. Do you want to hear? We got. We got a couple emails that I'm gonna call the section. Let's hear from the experts. Would you like to. To check in With a few of our expert listeners.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob, I'm all about education. I'm. I'm wondering what areas of expertise we're going to dig into. I mean, party drugs are obviously on the table. What else would they. I mean, clearly any kind of, like, local festival scene. Anything going on with the Full Moon I'd be curious to hear about.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

What else? What else are we hearing?

[Joanna Robinson]

As we mentioned last week, we got a couple emails from listeners who have been to the Full Moon party. It's pretty cool. Sam, area of expertise, Southern mainline clergy person, is how they.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Themselves. The clergy is weighing in on White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And weighing in specifically on the. I think it's a. It's a hymn. Right. The hymn that Tim sings late in the episode. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very, very normally to himself, muttering along as his daughter's trying to have a conversation with him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Solo. Solo falsetto. That drives your daughter out of the room totally fine. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

So Tim calls himself a. Says he was a choir boy. And this Sam, our clergy person, says, well, they're definitely not Catholic. Right. Which is usually where you find a choir boy. So probably Anglican. Right. And Sam says the Christmas Eve solo sung by a choir boy in the Anglican church is the first verse of Once in Royal David's City. Tim, though, sings, lo, how a rose air blooming during the episode. The tune may just fit the mood of the episode better, but thematically, this song has a greater focus on the lineage connecting David to Jesus. Tim has a lot of focus on his own lineage and the future of his line throughout the season. He also made us like the flower imagery of the song matching the white lotus. And I. I just thought that was really interesting like this. The specificity, the layers of specificity is probably true of the particular kind of Christianity that Victoria and Tim have practiced, especially with everything that Victoria has to say inside of this episode, including about Catholics, which. Exactly.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have to. You know, again, she's not wrong. Victoria's right about a lot of stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tough affair. Sam says the way Victoria speaks. She was almost certainly raised the evangelical, probably Southern Baptist. Her fear and revulsion of both Buddhism and Catholicism, along with the Clintons, points to that. It's interesting that these two parents raised a Buddhist and two hedonists. So that is the. That is the clergy weighing in. But I just.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love the one aspiring hedonist. We should say Locky's still early in his journey.

[Joanna Robinson]

He initiated the smooch, I think. I think he's also. He took that party drug pretty quickly. You think this is Locky's. He did hit of ecstasy.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a great question.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's a high school senior, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I kind of think maybe it is just because in so many ways he does model Saxon. And I could see him to this point being a certain kind of straight edge. Obviously, Saxton himself is not exactly straight edge. He just takes other kinds of drugs. But I could see him kind of holding out on this front until this moment where it's like, not only am I on vacation, do I have this rare fest like festival opportunity, but he's also trying to score with these two ladies right in front of him. And so he's trying to be part of the party.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our second and last expert that we're hearing from is Jake, a magician. My name is Jake and I'm a professional magician. So these last two episodes have really caught my eye. As someone who has adamantly stayed away from using tricks to try to pick up girls, it's refreshing to see magic potentially getting someone laid for once. Lachlan's tricks that he performed in episode four are complex and take a lot of practice and forethought to accomplish. Sneaking a playing card into someone's purse on a yacht is a dangerous game that I would never even attempt. The number prediction is impossible even with existing magician methods. But I'm willing to spend my disbelief all in service of Lachlan getting some. These were not merely party tricks. Lachlan has been training for months for this moment and ultimately succeeded, although it only led to him kissing his brother so far. Only on Sunday will it be revealed if magic tricks can actually get you laid. So that is from Jake a magician. I loved the incredible. The professional insight from Jake the magician and the religious insight from. From a clergy person.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love, I love them equally. They. They're equally valuable in my life, I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

So.

[Rob Mahoney]

Joe, were you surprised at all by Chloe being as into Locky as she was like that. Something about his whole vibe.

[Joanna Robinson]

The little magician.

[Rob Mahoney]

The little. The little magician really spoke to her.

[Joanna Robinson]

She likes them young. Their heart, Their hearts.

[Rob Mahoney]

She likes him quivering like a little.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like a little bunny rabbit. She's a shark and he's the prey, you know, so she thinks. But I don't know. Don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're gonna find out. I. I will say I do think it was in his way, actually like a little bit generous of Saxon, who has been trying to put his arm around Chloe for days now and trying to get close to her for days, that when she does seem to express interest in his brother, he's just like bowing out, like letting. Letting Lachlan take the spotlight. Not a great guy, but as far as wingman go, you could do worse than your brother.

[Joanna Robinson]

You. I think that's because he thinks that he can land Chelsea.

[Rob Mahoney]

He. He at least wants to try. Yeah, but he's certainly turned on by the prospect of trying and her not being interested.

[Joanna Robinson]

Gross, gross behavior. This season, a new hot deal has arrived at Metro. $25 a line for four lines. With all the data you need and four free Samsung Galaxy A15.5G phones, getting Metro's best deals is easy. No ID required, no activation fees. Get a new number or keep your own. It's up to you. That's four lines for 25 a line, plus four free phones. Visit a store or go online today only at Metro Buy T Mobile when you join Metro plus tax for a limited time and subject to change. Max one offer per account. Daredevil is born again on Disney plus.

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Exactly what kind of a lawyer are you? A really good one.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Rob Mahoney]

If you step out of line, I will be there.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's tax season, and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now, here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, what else do you want to talk about? What's. What's on your list to talk about? Do you want to talk about Duke basketball? Do we? Do you want to do? Now that we're in expert territory, we have our very own expert on this podcast, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, this is where you've already overstepped, because I am not by any means a college basketball expert.

[Joanna Robinson]

But. But you know that you're miles ahead of most people. You. You deal in basketball in general?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. I mean, of course, 10,000ft. I understand the parameters of college baske. I. Look, I could. We can talk about Duke if you want to talk about Duke.

[Joanna Robinson]

Quickly. This.

[Rob Mahoney]

We can talk about what it means for a Duke Alum to put a gun to their temple, because this is very powerful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so our listener Elise wrote in, and she says, I was at the game yesterday when Cooper Flag got hurt. Right. We're gonna talk about that in a second. If that doesn't mean anything to you listening at home, I kid you not. When he slipped, the families all around me screamed, cooper no. In the thickest Carolinian accent I've ever heard. And welp, now I'm a believer. From the NC frontlines, the Duke UNC frontline. These Posey Isaac accents are legit. So if you are not into basketball, college or otherwise, you may not know why. The image of Jason Isaacs in a Duke T shirt with a gun to his head has been sort of popping up all around the Internet. But this is a very, like, meme, heavy meme. Friendly White Lotus always produces tremendous memes. And this is something that Parker Posey was talking about on the official podcast. This idea that, like, we live in this memetic world where Mike White has created this perfect show that has the, like, who done it out aspect for the sort of Reddit detective junkies, has this sort of character study, comedy of manner stuff for the, like, Jane Austen, Dickens, you know, whatever fans, the Chekhov fans, if you will. And then the memes for. For the folks. For the people.

[Rob Mahoney]

For the folks. And so for the people with brain rot who are just, you know, look, we're all trying to do better.

[Joanna Robinson]

Check it in for Judy. So who's Cooper Flag and why should we care, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, whether you care is totally up to you. Cooper Flagg is probably going to be the next great NBA player, almost certainly going to be the number one pick in the NBA draft this summer. He had a pretty gnarly ankle injury recently. And I will say, I assume, since this email was sent, actually seems to be on the mend quite quickly and probably will be participating very soon in the NCAA tournament. But this meme is basically evergreen. Duke is a prohibitive favorite in the tournament. I would say the overwhelming favorite. And yet a lot of things happen when Duke is involved. This is a team that is not, not opposed and not averse to just randomly blowing a game in the middle of the tournament, randomly destroying a run in real time. And so the moment for that meme is coming. And I salute everyone out there who's just saving it down, ready, ready to spring into action whenever something involving Duke happens. Because, look, basketball and otherwise, Duke is never not in the news. So it's.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's fraud. It's A fraud school. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's going to be the gift that keeps on giving, I think. Thank. Thank you to Jason Isaacs for bringing it right to our door in the most literal fashion possible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do a quick. And I did not ask you to prepare for this, so I'm sorry to put you on the spot. Quick ranking of the top four memes produced from this season of White Lotus, because I believe it. The. The contenders are.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Walton Goggins reaction. Face to the Sam Rockwell monologue. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

The best part about that one is it is basically the same in video as it is in still shot. Like, he is just frozen in place for minutes at a time. And it's incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Leslie Bibb fake smile.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Full squint.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Parker Posey sort of like, her hand. Like, she's also squinting, like, hands up. Sort of like blissed out on Lorazepam wearing, like, a moo moo sort of situation. Or Parker Posey's reaction to the dudes on the yacht. Either one of those. And then Tim Ratliff in a Duke T shirt with a gun.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think at this moment in time, Goggins is the most powerful. We've all been through this together, and we're all kind of in that particular foxhole watching this episode, so it just feels like it's bringing us all into one place.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like the one that's gonna last Endure is Leslie Bibb.

[Rob Mahoney]

I agree. This is exactly what I was thinking. That one will live on the Internet forever. It just has infinite utility. It's perfect fodder to throw into the dumb Internet argument that you kind of want to get out of and back away from. And look who among us is not subject to those.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like it's going to be. I would like to see it replace Homer slowly backing into a head.

[Rob Mahoney]

It is the Southern version of that. Very much so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about Belinda and Fabian for a second.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because Fabian really disappointed me. We got it. We got an email from a listener who was. Who was talking about. Who sent us a clip from Babylon Berlin, a show that I did not watch. But the actor plays. Fabian was on and sings beautifully on that show. And so they were saying, like, maybe we'll get to see him sing, like, as it sort of been. He's been sort of raising it here and there because here he sang on Babylon Berlin, and it was wonderful and beautiful. Fabian, I was rooting for you, but now I am. I cannot. I can root for you no longer, given your repulsive Reaction to Belinda here and one of our other listeners, Alicia, wrote in saying, and this is something I meant to raise earlier, but there were these questions like, why isn't Belinda acting faster? Why isn't she Googling Greg faster? Why isn't she being more confrontational? Why, you know, why is she taking her time in terms of, like, reporting this, digging into this blah, blah. And I. I do think there's something to be said because Mike White is interested in sort of like definite social dynamics of. Of black women feeling like they're not believed in. Given in any given scenario. And so to watch this. This woman, you know, who Fabian is, like, you should be flattered by the attention of this. Of this psychopath, this rich, white psychopath, you know, is. Is, you know, Mike White, I think, tries not. And he has given interviews about this because he doesn't have a writer's room, and it's just him, a white guy writing about this stuff. He hesitant to dip his toe too much into sort of speaking from a position that he has not lived himself. A way to solve that, Mike White, is to have a writer's room. I believe strongly in writers rooms. But that's okay. You do you. But what do you. Do you think of the Belinda Fabian interaction? How are you feeling about that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it strikes me as just a. A very, again, recognizable version of feckless compliance. This sort of like, don't ask questions, don't overstep. It's taking customer service. And I mean, what is White Lotus if not on some level, a show about the customer, like the service industry and taking it to these ridiculous, luxurious extremes where the first rule is not do no harm. It is do not. Do you, like, do not disturb the guests under any possible circumstances. And so I think we need to open up the conversation. You know, Guy Talk's been getting a lot of grief about being bad at his job, and he is quite bad at his job. Fabian is also aggressively bad at his job, though.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, Guy Talk continues to be not great at his job.

[Rob Mahoney]

Terrible. But Fabian not. He doesn't even know the owner of the hotel's name, like, how to pronounce it correctly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, listen, who is getting employee of the month and why is it Pam? Why is it definitely Pam?

[Rob Mahoney]

Pam seems to really get it. She understands how to back slowly out of a room. She understands how to gather the phones, but also, you know, make herself scarce.

[Joanna Robinson]

Valentin and Pornchai seem to be like, you know, having. I don't know if we could say that Pornchai is having sex on the job. Valentin definitely is having sex on the job. Pornchiser is like, fraternizing with a fellow staff member, which I don't know. But when he.

[Rob Mahoney]

Establishment, you know, look, no judgments there. And I think Mooka is also doing a great job. You know, there are people at the White Lotus who are like, okay, you understand your role in this entire dynamic. Ponchi is an interesting part of that. I don't know if. Because ultimately he's not just a colleague, but he's kind of responsible for Belinda, kind of showing her around. And look, I am showing her around, Ralph. He certainly is. Look, I'm happy for both of those kids. I'm glad they finally figured it out. I'm glad Belinda ultimately has something to do that is not just worry and be antsy about Greg. Like, I think this, overall, this plot thread has been so slow moving because half of it has been Belinda by herself, worrying that no one is going to believe her. Part of it is her trying to explain the situation first to Ponchi, who's just kind of, like, listening. Just kind of tuned in and listening, but makes no gesture whatsoever as to what she should do or whether he even, like, fully understands the gravity of the situation. And then, of course, Fabian, like, shooting her down for absolutely no reason other than he just doesn't want to be bothered and doesn't want to bother the guests.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fabian, I'm just, like, enormously disappointed in you. We've been talking all season about this idea of, like, and. And White Lotus says this all the time. This idea of, like, doubling, in the case of the fancies, tripling these mirrors through which you can sort of better understand characters. Something that I thought it was really interesting that one of our listeners, Jefferson, wrote in about was the unexpected, but probably we should have expected it. Tim and Rick parallels, when we meet them in episode one on the boat, they're fighting over, like, having a cigarette on the deck of the boat. And it's like, these two couldn't be more different. He's a family man and he's a potential con man. You know, like all this sort of stuff like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

But can we wind back to that, that fight for a second? Because I. I gotta say, I think I'm Team Rick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. They're outside.

[Rob Mahoney]

Fair game.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You, as the person who doesn't want to be in the smoke line, are also free to move. You and your family can move to the front of the boat. In some cases, I would say the front of the boat is an even better seat. So what are you doing back here?

[Joanna Robinson]

The fact that Rick and that Tim, inside of this episode, we heard about it a bit when he was on the boat and talking about his lineage, the governor of Carol, North Carolina and like all that sort of stuff like that. Right. But like inside of this episode, we get this, this, this pressure. You're asking for juicy monologues from some of our main characters. I would say. I wouldn't call this like a monologue, but like a juicy moment from Tim Ratliff talking about the pressure that's been on him his whole life and talking about the shadow of his father over him. And of course, Rick has been talking with the shadow of his father over him. And our listener pointed out that Rick's got a gun and Tim's got a gun. These are the only two characters. Sorry, guy talk. These are the only two characters right now on the show who have guns.

[Rob Mahoney]

Two daddy's boys with guns. What could possibly go wrong?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's justified time, I think. My daddy. Anyway, so what do you think of them as mirrors? Is that. Is that interesting to you?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I've been waiting for it all season for them to be in close proximity again since that kind of first episode argument.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they've really just had those sorts of moments. Right. I think Rick kind of passed by him when. When. Yeah, well, that's on the boat when. When Tim was out making one of his panicked, like harried phone calls, passed by him and made quip. But they need to be in the same space for an extended period of time. And I'll say if I have kind of a general disappointment in where we are five episodes deep into the season of White Lotus, there's isn't as much cross contamination as I would want other than the people who are currently on the yacht. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like you really want to have talk to each other.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sorry, who's that? No, please.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think Chelsea, for all of her like annoyance with Saxon or whatever, I want Piper and Chelsea to have a conversation. I think Piper would have a much better holiday and Chelsea would be less annoyed by the absence of Rick. I think. I feel like they would be good for each other. Piper and Chelsea. I'm rooting for it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'll say this. I think Piper needs a Chelsea in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Her life more, more, more benefit to Piper than to Chelsea. But I think it would spare Chelsea from having to like talk to Saxon. So, you know, there's always that.

[Rob Mahoney]

So the perfect part about the Ratliff kids is that they are all kind of tough hangs in their own way, and I really don't want to spend time with any of them. And as usual, Chelsea is the best hang on the show. And she's. She's going through it a little bit more this week. She's clearly feeling Rick's absence. She's trying to process her own place in the world, her own place in her relationship, her own place in this foursome that is apparently manifesting right in front of her. I'm worried for Chelsea, as usual.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. All I want from. I mean, these brothers, I don't want anything more to happen. But if something more happens between these brothers, that's its own thing. And I'm not that emotionally invested in it. I need Chelsea to stay out of it, whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, for Rick, I'm rooting for these kids.

[Rob Mahoney]

I go back and forth on whether I'm rooting for them as a. Pairing them as a relationship.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like her child, her 50 year old child. Rob. What could be wrong with that dynamic? What are you talking about?

[Rob Mahoney]

It all seems very healthy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you want to talk about the Sam Rockwell monologue? We've been talking around it. Do you want to talk about it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we have to. But talking around it is kind of fair for this show because the show, this whole episode, feels like it's kind of talking around it at a certain point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, and I think what's also interesting, you know, Bill was quite enamored with his monologue. We talked about it a ton on Sunday. People in general seem quite enamored. And it is a big moment. You know, we did the sort of like, Oscar guest star guessing game. And then after we record that episode, you did go home and watch the screener, and you were like, sam Rockwell didn't see it coming.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I'm so mad I didn't know. The Leslie Bibb connection. Or else it's. The writing is on the wall. Right. It all makes sense as to how he would end up on the sidelines in Thailand and they would just tap him in for a great scene.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pour one out for your idea of Eddie Redmayne at the Full Moon Festival, though. I thought that was an incredible idea. But Sam Rockwell, Oscar winner, shows up to do the scene, and it seems like, do more. Because Rick's like, I'm gonna need you for this con I have to pull. Right. Like he said, he has a director friend. So, like, it seems like they're gonna go full. Full con, buddy. Calm job. Which is a great.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Premise for anything.

[Rob Mahoney]

How. How Rockwell. Do you think Rockwell is gonna go when playing a director? Because this is a man who knows how to ham it up.

[Joanna Robinson]

True. That's a great point. But this is chamomile tea, Frank. So I don't know if he's as at a different point in his life.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's not making See how they Run anymore. You know, like, he's just trying to chill out and get a good night's sleep.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I think that, like, I feel mixed on this monologue. I think it's an incredible moment, a great TV moment. But to your point, and I had this in my notes before. Before you were talking about this. But, like, it's a. It's not a character monologue. It's a theme monologue. It's a monologue. That's the theme of White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, I mean, it is a character monologue. It's just a character.

[Joanna Robinson]

We don't have any attachment to investment in Frank. Yeah, zero.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I mean, I have more now.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I have 5% investment in Frank. But, like, you know, it's. I, I. When. When I think about great TV monologues, and this is something we want to talk about in a second, which is like, Rob and I have tried to limit ourselves to a few, but we've rounded up, like, our. What are the best TV monologues of all time? Does this rank? You know, all that sort of stuff like that? For me, a great TV monologue is not just, like, beautiful writing or thematically resonant. It is a character moment. And that may not prove to be true of everything that I have put together here today. But this is, like, something I was thinking about that I was. I was like, why isn't this striking me as one of the greatest TV moments of all time, the way that it is striking other people? And I think I'm just missing. And White Lotus gets accused of this sometimes. I'm missing that emotional investment to. To make it, like a full home run for.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what I mean? What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what that's where I would say it is. It is a great monologue. It's incredibly well written. I do want to engage in the ideas because I think they're interesting on their own terms. And it is not unwelcome to have a character outside the story come in to sort of give a thesis statement time. And, you know, in certain kinds of fiction and certain kinds of narrative, I understand the appeal of that, but, yeah, I'm with you. That I want it to mean more, because I want the character it's coming from to mean more to me. And so even when I'm thinking about things in the world of White Lotus, which I think can be quite personal and I think can come from a place of, if not heart, at least, like, a really complex emotional center, to me, the gold standard for, like, a White Lotus monologue is more like some of what we get from Daphne in season two in terms of, like, her big speech about having the trainer and, like, finding a fulfillment in life. And it's like, it's this. A great White Lotus monologue to me is both very, like, penetrative, but also still mysterious and muddled in the way that the show is often mysterious and muddled. And so this is some of those things, but it can't be actually penetrative because we don't care about the character it's coming from other than we care about Sam Rockwell. And so what are we to do with all of these ideas, but no bucket to put it in that makes any sense to us.

[Joanna Robinson]

And there's not even because, you know, he's giving it. Giving the monologue to Rick, a character I am emotionally invested in. But Rick's response is, like, memeable and comic. But I don't know what this revelation, if this is shifting anything inside of Rick the way that, like, you know, some of his sessions with Amrita back at the White Lotus certainly was shifting something inside of him. Those were big sort of emotional tectonic plates moving around inside of Rick.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Whereas this is more like amused wonderment and vague support. You know, what I mean is sort of what it seemed like now, I could be wrong, and it could be that, like, whatever crossroads Rick is headed towards with Jim Hollinger, that when it comes to do I do a murder or do I not? He is thinking about his friend who's talking about the larger idea of identity, which is also what Amrita was talking about. So it's possible that this will have that. But in the moment, every shift to Goggins faces a comedy shift and not a, like, emotional shift.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think for now, it is, and you would hope in the ultimate payoff it is more than that. And if you want to start connecting the dots of what this could actually mean to someone like Rick, I would say it's this. To me, at this point in the story, what Frank is saying is more in conversation with maybe what Saxon and Locky are talking about. Right. This idea of, like, some people in this world just want to be used. And Frank has been that guy, he has been the user and he has seen through it and he has fucked his way to enlightenment and he has, he has found at the end of the day, like, what does it cost the person doing the using if that is all that you do? And you can start replacing some of the nouns in there and some of the verbs in there. And take it from Rick's perspective, or almost any character in the season of White Lotus of what does it do to you when you're putting all these other people in your life to help contextualize your own identity when you were using those people to triangulate who you are. Right. Like, Rick is defining himself by this story that his mom told him about who his dad may or may not be. And that's, that's the only way he has. Can really understand his place in the world. And you could say the same thing about Jacqueline with her friends. You could say the same thing about Tim Ratliff and all the people at the club and sort of the pillar of the community identity that he's constructed for himself. All of these people are using in their own ways.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's not just using. It's just like this is. That's a natural human approach, I would say, especially in a, in a, in a. Let's say, like the fish tank that is White Lotus. When you go on vacation to a place like this and which is all about status and displaying some. A front of some kind, you are constantly evaluating yourself against the people you're traveling with or the other guests who are chowing down on dragon fruit at the next table. You know what I mean? So like it?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, have you seen the price of dragon fruit? It's ridiculous.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything near eggs? Did you see that? So our, our pal Mallory Rubin sent us a text last night. I don't know what his time. About the price of hard boiled eggs at Erewhon.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, specifically and in very Mallory style, it seemed like doordashing or Uber eating herself some hard boiled eggs from Erwan.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think she was ordering something. She was door dashing something else from Erewhan.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was like, take a. Get a load of these hard boiled eggs from Erewhan. Did you know that? Did you see that Jacqueline was carrying an Erewhan tote bag in a previous episode? It all comes back together.

[Rob Mahoney]

Does not surprise me one bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's. It's using people, but it's also just like a status. It's like, how do I understand myself if not in contrast to someone else? Um, how do I lachlan understand myself, if not in contrast to my stronger, taller older brother or my more intellectually engaged older sister.

[Rob Mahoney]

But is. Isn't this what Frank's doing at the end of the day too? It's like, am I the middle aged white guy or am I the Asian woman that I'm trying to have sex with? Like where, where am I, where do I end in this other person begin?

[Joanna Robinson]

And who's to say we aren't the enlightened space? Not putting that label on yourself or that box around yourself. Identity is a prison, rich man, poor man sort of thing inside of the. Inside of the show. Yeah, I think, I think Rick, Rick, not Rick comparing himself to Chelsea. Like the way in which Rick comparing himself to a snake trapped. Trapped in a cage. And certainly Rick comparing himself to this like fairy tale of a do gooder father. And what will it mean when that if you're, if most of your identity is constructed around or in comparison to or in the shadow of something that winds up to not be true, you know, what does that do to you for you? Does it liberate you or does it, you know, damn you. I don't know, Joe.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think it's going to liberate him. Unfortunately.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you snake just let him out of the cage, it'll be fine.

[Rob Mahoney]

But even the snakes are just part of the snake show.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're all in the snake show together, Rob. All right, Gigi, want to hit me with some of your favorite TV monologues?

[Rob Mahoney]

This was a very easy prompt. Just find the greatest TV monologues of.

[Joanna Robinson]

All time and I gave you like a couple hours notice. Yeah, I think you and I had like separate but equal meltdowns around this because, like I thought this would be a fun, breezy idea. And then you and I both got a. Got stuck in. There's too many options. What do you want to start with?

[Rob Mahoney]

I have a very normal 10 item list for your prompt. How about this? I'm going to start. I'm going to try to start with things that I think you might also have. I think you might also have Nora Durst in the season three finale of the Leftovers explaining her journey to the other side.

[Joanna Robinson]

My assumption is that you would have Nora Durst in this. In the. This is the game I play with Mallory on House.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you have Kevin?

[Joanna Robinson]

I did. Kevin from the finale. You.

[Rob Mahoney]

You have Kevin.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. Talking about like, like, that's how I found you, Nora. I refused to believe you were gone. That, that always gets me. I'm always crying at that point in the. In the finale.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, what else might you have? Do you have Jaime Lannister on how he became the King Slayer in Game of Thrones?

[Joanna Robinson]

Obviously. Obviously.

[Rob Mahoney]

I didn't know if you'd go Tyrion. Like, there's a lot of Game of Thrones to choose from. Just like there's a lot of leftovers to choose from.

[Joanna Robinson]

To choose from. But Jaime Lannister in the episode Kiss by Fire in the bathtub with Brienne talking about burn them all is of course, Jamie. My name is Jamie. Of course, my Game of Thrones 1. Do you have. This is like Game of Go Fish. Do you, Rob, have Anya in the Buffy Vampire Slayer episode, the body talking about death and her not understanding it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I considered it. I don't consider it to be a true monologue so much as an outburst. It's like, it's almost not long enough to be monologue territory to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's on the shorter side.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's legend shit from maybe my favorite character in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So, of course, it holds a very special place in my heart. I went a different Whedon direction, though. Do you have any other Joss Whedon stuff? This one I don't think would make many other lists, but is very important to me, which is in the angel episode Epiphany, angel has this big understanding of, like, identifying your place in the universe based on these, like, big omens and, like, prophecy and understanding that. And he has this big speech about how if nothing we do matters, like capital M matters in an omen prophecy sense, that all that matters is what we do. And it kind of puts into. Puts a very grand, like demons and vampires level show into a very boots on the ground, like, how do we help literally a single person this week kind of show in a way that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I appreciate to the list. David Boreanas. I didn't expect to find you here. And yet here you are. Rob, we haven't talked about the show, but do you have anything from the Star wars show andor you know, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don'T, but that's just an oversight on my part, I'm guessing. Do you have the Fiona Shaw hologram speech?

[Joanna Robinson]

That one's incredible. There's also the Andy Serkis speech. One way out, but I've got Stellan scars. Our speech, of course. I think about this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Living in the shadows, et cetera, et.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cetera is my sacrifice. I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything that is one of the best things I've ever seen on television and or outstanding.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're about to get more andor. I'm so excited about it. I'm going to go for more low hanging fruit. How about Breaking Bad? I am the one who knocks.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was on my long list but I was hoping you would have it so I don't have it again.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just checking them off. How about Mad Men Nostalgia obviously.

[Joanna Robinson]

Obviously I haven't.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is one. I have like an art print of of this full text in addition to like a mock up. I mean it's look, it's a beautiful speech. Nostalgia and the pain of an old wound.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you have it like on your dorm wall? Like is that. How long have you had it?

[Rob Mahoney]

This has been in the. It's not quite dorm wall but like first apartment past dorm wall.

[Joanna Robinson]

The most embarrassing in retrospect poster you. Or like the most prototypically college poster you had up when you were in college.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did I have the like a. Like a. The photo still shot of Muhammad Ali maybe. I'm trying to remember. There definitely was something purchased from like the campus poster store. But I will say I did bring a lot of my own stuff. I did bring a lot. I happened upon like a great vintage poster store here in Dallas that it since shut down and brought a lot of stuff with me that was more like the departed Kill Bill star. Well I like Tarantino for sure at that point in time I think maybe some oldboy in there. So it's definitely college zoned but not quite campus poster store.

[Joanna Robinson]

The. The train spotting choose life monologue art print.

[Rob Mahoney]

Gotta do it. Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Saying that's my most basic. Yeah, the, the. The. This device isn't a spaceship. It's a time machine. It goes backwards and forwards. The carousel speech from Mad Men. Perfect television.

[Rob Mahoney]

Another great one as character. Right? Like this. This speech being a personal revelation for Don Draper as he is delivering it is what makes it so good.

[Joanna Robinson]

At the end of the speech he's showing photos of and what I love about watching that pitch spoilers for Mad Men. But he's like showing photos of his family of Betty and even, even when we watch that we're like it's not as pretty as this picture. But going all the way through Mad Men and knowing where he winds up with his family at the end of that show. That scene hits even harder on Rewatch. What else do you have?

[Rob Mahoney]

Every time Al Swearengen opens his mouth in Deadwood, you cannot make me choose between them. Many times he's just, like, talking at someone. Often like a sex worker who may or may not be servicing him as he gives one of these monologues. So legend shit across Deadwood, but especially from elsewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

Engine on the legend shit beat. I will submit to the jury Chuck's courtroom meltdown from Better Call Saul where he says, oh, yeah, chanery. He defecated through a sunroof, and I saved him. What a sick joke. I have to say on. I love Better Call Saul. I think it's wonderful television. Chuck McGill, incredible stuff from him in that. But what I love about speaking of, like, the meme culture that we live in, if you go on any Reddit TV board, someone at some point will either say chicanery or what a sick joke like this monologue is, like, lives forever in the television Reddit subreddits. All right, what else do you have?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a beautiful thing. I. I would not be me if I did not include Jed Bartlett talking with God in the west wing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Two cathedrals.

[Rob Mahoney]

Two cathedrals. The real ones. No, I mean, maybe the most acclaimed and beloved episode of that show. So for. For good reason.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you have any Doctor who?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't. Which. Which doctor did you go?

[Joanna Robinson]

I went with 11. The Pandora opens.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I almost. Did you do any Friday Night Lights?

[Rob Mahoney]

It almost feels like cheating. I think if you're going to do one, it's the pre championship game. Like, every man is going to lose at a point in his life kind of speech.

[Joanna Robinson]

A Doctor who speech and a Coach Taylor speech. I agree. Kind of feels a little bit like cheating, but here we are. What else you have?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think if I was going to choose a Doctor who speech, it would be. I want to say it's David Tennant's, like, introduction episode where he ends up aping, like, half of the Lion King as he's. As he's going on his speech. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful turn. BoJack Horseman. BoJack's eulogy for his mom slash reckoning with generational trauma. Light and cheery stuff from the Netflix animation suite, as always.

[Joanna Robinson]

Speaking of Netflix and light and cheery, are you a Flanagan head? Have you watched any of the Mike Flanagan properties?

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually have just, like, not made it to it for some reason.

[Joanna Robinson]

Midnight Mass, which I rewatch every year at Halloween, is. Is a, like, monologue topia of just deep thoughts. And there is one that a character gives as she's dying and actually she's talking about like Buddhist ideas in terms of like what it means to die, which I think is very relevant to White Lotus. But a Flanagan monologue has to be in the mix somewhere for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like we're hitting all of the major players in the monologuing scene. Really.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have two more. What else do you have?

[Rob Mahoney]

I have kind of two more, but they're from one series. And I mostly kind of split the baby on this one for Fleabag. I couldn't decide between the season one confessional for Fleabag herself or the hot priest's wedding sermon in season two, which I think is just beautiful. So it depends on the day, it depends on my level of dread and how much I want to engage with the optimism and hope in the universe. But either one, depending on your flavor.

[Joanna Robinson]

I went with Confessional. Fleabag. Confessional.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's. That's a cry for help.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jill. Last but not least, and I'm okay that I'm the only one that Carmi's seven minute monologue from the Bear season one finale. And to go back to this sort of like character centric thing, this is Carmi talking about his brother and talking about what his brother meant to him. And this is where we get the sort of like let it rip sort of catchphrase and, and what, however you feel about where the bear has journeyed on its, on its run. Re watching that monologue. Seven minutes, most of which is one shot, one just push on Jeremy Allen White's face. There's like one small cut to a closer shot. But it's mostly, I would say five minute of just an actor talking at the camera about his brother and what. And, and what living in the shadow of his brother has meant to him and stuff like that. So like Carme's. Yeah, like that. When I, I remember watching the Bear season one and there's like obviously like the oner episode and stuff like that, but I remember watching this monologue and being like this is really something in terms of like the confidence to just let an actor who is not even an Oscar winner, Sam Rockwell, because Jeremy Allen White, you know, was just Lip from Shameless at the time. Right. Like to let that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they found their own Oscar winning guest stars. You know, they figured it out that the little engine that could, that is.

[Joanna Robinson]

The bear they started with. They were, they were an out of nowhere show.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true. It's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

Carmi Monologue. And I think about it all the time. So those are some of our. We had a couple hours to think about top TV monologues. I.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's impossible.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I want to. I want to sort of honorable mention. Our producer, Justin Sales, wanted to get Sopranos in there. And since Rob and I canonically, famously have not seen the Sopranos, It's a season four Sopranos monologue. Economic downturn, time immemorial. These are the. These are the words that Justin said to me that I needed to represent for Sopranos on the pot. So there you go.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would love to hear what other people's favorite monologues are at prestigetvpotify.com monkeyshootout gmail.com I would say, especially if your favorite monologue comes before the, quote, unquote, golden age of prestige TV, if you have, like, a pre 2005 monologue that really speaks to you, I would love to know what it is.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's our oldest is. West Wing is like our oldest one, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, West Wing. I mean, the angel one was season two. I can't remember that might be early 2000s.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. All right, so we did mostly, mostly White Lotus with a little side of TV monologues throughout history that we've enjoyed. I don't know. I'll be curious to see, but I don't know that the Sam Rockwell monologue will linger with me the way that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Those have, but it will not.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will say this. I have just come to visit my parents. One of the first things my mother said to me was, whoever writes White Lotus needs to be arrested in regard to this specific monologue. So I think it's registering the people in different ways. I do find it to be tremendously memorable. And I think I'm gonna remember certainly the Goggins reaction shots. Certainly. If not the philosophical core of the argument, certainly the shock value of having it land in the middle of the season. And that's kind of. I will say the downside of having it is this season has needed that sort of juice quite badly. And to get it in a way that sparks contrast with everything around it, I think does end up hurting White Lotus a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I mean, episode five, coming in the middle of the season with this monologue and two brothers doing more than smooching, less than making out is definitely. A lot of people are kind of enervated by it, like, you know, excited to see what happens next.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're revving up. I hope they are not revving up. I hope they are cooling down. Put the. Put those boys in a cold shower. Not together. Not together.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where is Kate to say? Time to go to bed, everyone. Rob, does your mom listen to this podcast?

[Rob Mahoney]

I hope not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Me too, but maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hi, Mom. Hi, Mom. If you do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hello, Rob's mom. Anything else you want to say about White Lotus or anything else before we go?

[Rob Mahoney]

I just was really personally hurt by the fact that we breeze our way into Bangkok, and in a version of the show, I would very much love to see just like Rick palling around town. Great. We're just like one shot down the street of all this beautiful street food, and we don't get one. One lingering, loving shot of some. Some wonderful Thai street food. What are we doing here?

[Joanna Robinson]

Doing here? What are we doing here?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm here. I am here for my version of luxury, which is not, you know, the yoga retreat within the White Lotus. I. I want street meat. You know, I want. I want food that is so natively, incandescently hot that I could not possibly eat it. But I will try. That's what I want.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, well, that does it for us. I'm Joanna Robinson. That's street meat. Mahoney. Is that. Is that.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not. That's not a thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's going to catch on.

[Rob Mahoney]

Simply not a thing, so.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I would like to thank Justin Sales for his Sopranos input, among many other things. John Richter for all of his great work on the video front end. Donny Beachum for, you know, doing. Doing the edits, making a sound as doing his best with what we put out there in the content sphere. And we will see you later today for a live severance Q and A mailbag. If we're wearing different clothes, don't worry about it. What is time? We'll see you soon.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bye.