‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 6 Deep Dive and Theories: Can Saxon Reach Spiritual Enlightenment?

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: Deep Dive into ‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 6 – Can Saxon Reach Spiritual Enlightenment?

Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosted by Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney from The Ringer, the hosts embark on an in-depth analysis of ‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 6: "Denials." Released on March 26, 2025, this episode delves into the intricate character developments, thematic explorations, and unfolding drama within the series. The discussion not only breaks down the events of the episode but also ventures into compelling theories about the characters' trajectories, particularly focusing on whether Saxon can achieve spiritual enlightenment.

Episode Overview

Joanna Robinson opens the discussion by highlighting the episode’s significance, emphasizing that Episode 6 marked a turning point with the revelation of incestuous undertones between Saxon and Laki. Rob Mahoney expresses his excitement about the escalating drama, noting, “All of the fallout is falling out in real time. I'm loving where we are and the absolute shitshow that's happening basically across the board” ([03:10]).

Character Analysis

1. Saxon and Spiritual Enlightenment

   The primary focus of the episode revolves around Saxon’s journey towards spiritual enlightenment amidst the chaos. Joanna and Rob discuss Saxon’s potential transformation, questioning whether his recent experiences will lead him to a deeper understanding of himself:

   • Rob Mahoney: “Saxon sort of reading the book and they're just like this reversal of power and dominance…” ([25:55]).

   • Joanna Robinson: Explores the possibility of Saxon embracing Buddhist ideologies, drawing parallels to Siddhartha’s quest for enlightenment, and pondering whether Saxon will undergo a significant transformation or remain entrenched in his flawed behaviors.

2. Incest Theory Between Saxon and Laki

   A significant portion of the discussion centers on the controversial and disturbing revelation of a possible incestuous relationship between Saxon and his brother, Laki. The hosts debate the implications of this subplot:

   • Joanna Robinson: Highlights the murkiness surrounding consent and the imbalance in their relationship, stating, “...their dynamic is so perpetually unbalanced by the nature of their relationship” ([63:07]).

   • Rob Mahoney: Adds depth by analyzing Saxon’s internal struggles and the potential for his character to find redemption or further descent into darkness, mentioning, “Saxon is laying there, right? He is experiencing something, and he is present, and he is tripping out of his mind” ([52:42]).

3. Belinda's Predicament

   Belinda remains a focal point, with discussions revolving around her professional and personal turmoil:

   • Joanna Robinson: Expresses concern over Belinda’s potential downfall, referencing listener theories about her interactions with Ponchai and Greg Gary:

     “I would say it's more White Lotus for Portia to not say something. For people to say, that's none of my business...” ([10:02]).

   • Rob Mahoney: Considers the implications of Belinda accepting Ponchai’s offer to realize her professional dreams, contemplating the moral compromises she might face:

     “I don't mind that. I think, like, that could be an interesting way to resolve some of the threads within that character” ([09:45]).

4. Tim Ratliff's Struggle

   Tim Ratliff's character is examined in the context of his spiritual and existential crisis:

   • Joanna Robinson: Shares a listener’s perspective on Tim’s contemplation of emptiness and its potential destabilizing effects:

     “The monk's comment in the most recent episode of White Lotus got me thinking about some of the dangers that can come with learning about emptiness in translation...” ([19:22]).

   • Rob Mahoney: Reflects on Tim’s journey, highlighting his internal conflict and the philosophical depth his character brings to the narrative:

     “...to admit that everything that you're going through is small and that you yourself are a droplet” ([12:41]).

5. Laurie, Kate, and Jacqueline’s Dynamics

   The intricate relationships among the female characters are dissected, focusing on their unresolved conflicts and interpersonal tensions:

   • Joanna Robinson: Discusses the fallout from previous events and anticipates further confrontations:

     “Laurie is provoking reaction as much as anything... no one is getting out of this clean” ([54:36]).

   • Rob Mahoney: Analyzes Laurie's transformation into a chaotic agent of retribution, emphasizing the show's strength in portraying characters with flawed and complex motivations:

     “Everyone is misbehaving in their own ways... no escape” ([55:47]).

Thematic Explorations

1. Buddhism and Spirituality

   The hosts delve into the Buddhist themes interwoven throughout the episode, particularly focusing on concepts of emptiness and interdependence. They discuss how the show juxtaposes these philosophical ideas against the backdrop of contemporary American culture, exploring the potential psychological impacts on characters like Tim Ratliff.

2. Southern Gothic Influences

   Drawing parallels to Southern Gothic literature, Joanna and Rob explore how ‘The White Lotus’ incorporates elements such as familial legacy, hidden secrets, and moral decay. They reference literary giants like William Faulkner and Tennessee Williams, discussing how the show modernizes these archetypes within its narrative framework.

   • Rob Mahoney: Offers an insightful connection between the show’s storytelling and Southern Gothic traditions:

     “There is a revolutionary spirit, there's a frontierism that's a little bit different in Texas...” ([61:33]).

Future Theories and Speculations

Joanna and Rob speculate on upcoming plot developments, including potential shootouts, dinner parties, and character confrontations. They consider the pacing of the season and how earlier slow-building tensions might culminate in explosive resolutions.

• Rob Mahoney: Predicts that the escalating tensions will remain true to the show's nature, anticipating philosophical and emotional confrontations:

  “We're gonna get the heady, emotional stuff in basically every plotline...” ([44:34]).

• Joanna Robinson: Questions the logical progression of certain character actions, such as Belinda attending Greg Gary’s dinner party despite the underlying tensions:

  “Why would Saxon go? Why would Belinda go? Why would anyone go to Greg Gary's?” ([46:13]).

Notable Quotes

• Rob Mahoney at [03:10]:

  “All of the fallout is falling out in real time. I'm loving where we are and the absolute shitshow that's happening basically across the board.”

• Joanna Robinson at [19:22]:

  “The monk's comment in the most recent episode of White Lotus got me thinking about some of the dangers that can come with learning about emptiness in translation...”

• Rob Mahoney at [12:41]:

  “...to admit that everything that you're going through is small and that you yourself are a droplet.”

• Joanna Robinson at [54:36]:

  “Laurie is provoking reaction as much as anything... no one is getting out of this clean.”

Conclusion

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney provide a nuanced and comprehensive analysis of ‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 6. Their discussion highlights the show's intricate character development, thematic depth, and its ability to provoke thoughtful discourse on complex issues such as spirituality, identity, and moral ambiguity. By examining the characters' internal and external conflicts, the hosts offer listeners a deeper understanding of the narrative's progression and the potential paths forward for its multifaceted cast.

Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Joanna and Rob reflect on the show's ongoing exploration of human flaws and the inescapable nature of personal demons. They commend ‘The White Lotus’ for its bold storytelling and its commitment to portraying characters in their most unguarded and vulnerable states. The hosts eagerly anticipate future episodes, promising to continue their in-depth coverage and analysis of the unfolding drama.

Join the Conversation

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the hosts by sending their theories, thoughts, and reactions to monkeyshootoutmail.com or through the podcast's official channels. Whether it's breaking down twisty plotlines or delving into character psyches, The Prestige TV Podcast invites fans to stay connected and keep the conversation alive.

Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

It's starting to look like spring, and.

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

Com. This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and pina colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now. Foreign welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we are only podcasting for like three hours total this week. Thereabouts. Rob. Together, anyway. Yeah, together. Together. And this is one of those shows that we're podcasting this week. It is White Lotus. And we're here to talk to you about all that went down in episode six, Denials.

[Rob Mahoney]

A lot went down, a lot went up. I went back down again. It was rhythmic.

[Joanna Robinson]

We also, of course, wrapping up severance on this feed. We've got an episode, a mailbag Q and A episode, as well as an interview with the showrunner, Dan Erickson. And then Rob and I will be checking back in to the pit. A lot of, if you haven't, if you weren't already watching the pit, hopefully the word of mouth around episode 12.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Got you into it because episode 12 was extraordinary television. And we'll be covering 12 and 13 this week on a little double dip, as we like to do with the Pit, and then maybe weekly going forward.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not arguing with it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Adolescence is another thing, of course, that we covered on this feed. Also, Bill Simmons. Ever heard of him? Sean Fantasy and I covered the first couple episodes of the studio. We'll be dropping the feed this week. So there's a lot going on on the Prestige feed. What a bustling time for television. And for this feed, White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've heard of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Big picture reaction to this episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob Mahoney, Very eventful. I enjoyed it. If enjoyed is quite the right word. I will say, like anyone who is worried about the pacing of this show, what you have now said is that you just wanted us to get to the incest faster. So it is finally here. We have arrived. All of the fallout is falling out in real time. I'm, I'm loving where we are and the absolute shit show that's happening basically across the board.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I float a phrase by you that was offered by one of our listeners, Adam, on Twitter?

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

In response to the episode that Mal and Bill and I recorded that dropped yesterday.

[Rob Mahoney]

Please do.

[Joanna Robinson]

He said, I'm really disappointed that the term quote brotherly tug was not incorporated into the Prestige TV podcast, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

A real missed opportunity. I had circled trying to make a tugboat joke during this podcast at somewhere. But, you know, now that it's out there, now that the tug puns are just front and center, I feel cheap coming back to it. So let's just say all of your tug puns are welcome. If you want to email [e-mail] or prestigetvpotify.com with whatever tug related humor you found in this episode, I would be open to it. Joe, I don't know about you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Always, always ready for a tug joke. Thanks so much, Rob. You can stop emailing us about visual references and severance though. We have already recorded that pod.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's too late. We've already opened. We've opened that barrel of monkeys and they will never go back in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. I kind of want to start with a prompt that actually the official podcast started with this week that I thought was kind of brilliant. Here we are, we've got two episodes left after this. Episode six, who is in the most trouble?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Post episode six, Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's Guy Talk. He's getting too. He's getting so many wins right now. Like, everything is really coming up Guy Talk. Mook is excited for their date. He got the gun back. He. He pulled the drawer. First try, first pick, immediately finds the gun. Everything is working out. He gets that out of that room. Not a second to spare once he gets to the range. Turns out Guy Talk is a crack shot, a natural with the pistol. All these things going right for any character on White Lotus starts to make me a little bit nervous. And I don't, I don't say that in a way where I think it's Guy Talk floating in the water, but I do think maybe he gets in a shootout with a bunch of monkeys and bad things start happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm wondering if it's like, is it the Russians? Like the Russians who we think robbed the boutique and Guy Talk, who is going to, like, recognize them at the fights or something like that. That's. That's a possibility We've always been wondering about. Who's in the most trouble. I know I just asked that. I'm gonna offer up the flip side as my personal answer, which is like, who do I think is most primed to get the most out of this experience?

[Rob Mahoney]

Joe, that is explicitly not the prompt. Who do you think is in the most trouble?

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's see. I think Piper is in the most danger of having her. Her worldview rocked by her inability to spend the night at a monastery, also.

[Rob Mahoney]

By whatever I fear is going to happen with her and her brother now in this room.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, are you worried about. About Laki at the meditation center?

[Rob Mahoney]

I just think, structurally speaking, this whole season has been setting up this, like, picking sides thing for Lachie in which he's kind of torn between his two siblings and seems a little bit unclear about what he wants in life, sexually and otherwise. I'm just terrified that, like, look, guys, you're in a monastery. You need to behave yourselves.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hands to yourselves. So to. Would you like to go back to the beginning of the season when Saxon is like, people with. With genitals should. Siblings with genitals should not share rooms together.

[Rob Mahoney]

As I said, he had a point. He had a point. You know, I want to circle back.

[Joanna Robinson]

To Saxon because he's actually, like, the figure I'm kind of most captivated by in this very moment. Never thought I'd say that. Cool, cool, cool. Who I think it is. Belinda's in danger.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Belinda's. Belinda's in a tough spot, I'd say a tough spot kind of writing and otherwise. Like, her threads are not the most repulsive. Like, she's got this constant thing with Greg going on that's just been stagnant for a long time. I don't really know what this season of White Lotus is trying to do with the Greg Belinda continuity.

[Joanna Robinson]

Belinda's in trouble. But also, I would. I would say it's. It would be extremely grim for, like, Belinda's story arc to be get screwed over by Tanya in season one and murdered by Greg Gary in season three. Like, that is just unrelentingly grim.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, what do you think about this second offer from Ponchai to make all of her professional dreams come true?

[Joanna Robinson]

Dangerous. Look, it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a certain morning after tact that I have not heard before. Like, what. What if I just manifested everything that you want in life immediately?

[Joanna Robinson]

Listen, if he wanted to, he would rob. If he wanted to he would and he does. Yes. I am quite worried about this. Our listener, Shannon, says, uh, as soon as he spoke those words, I immediately suspected he might be the one to die. Because God forbid we let Belinda be happy. And I don't think Greg Gary is going to try to kill her. Um, also, Will wrote in. A couple people wrote in saying they don't think Greg Gary is going to try to kill Belinda. They think that he's going to try to bribe her.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Into silence. Is that your read as well on what's going on?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's clear that he needs the COVID of this social event for one of those two things. It's either, like, rock solid alibis so that if he. He or someone else does kill Belinda or try to kill Belinda, that he won't be found culpable for it. But also, what other pretense would there be for her to possibly talk to him? And I think his pitch overall of like, I know we've had one conversation and it was you tacitly accusing me of murder, but do you want to come to my house for a dinner party? Was maybe, like, not the most founded. Like, I just don't understand quite what the appeal is for Belinda at that point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I don't know what's going to get her to go to that party. Couldn't be me.

[Rob Mahoney]

But unless Zion really wants to go, I guess.

[Joanna Robinson]

But here I can see a very white lotus ending. Being a white. Very white lotus ending is moral compromise. Right. Okay, so if Belinda, who we consider to be this sort of very forthright, moral compass kind of character, if she ends the season taking hush money and opening up her spa with. With Ponchai and, like, that's. That's where it ends for her.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't mind that. I think, like, that could be an interesting way to resolve some of the threads within that character.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I remember when we started this season and Greg Gary shows up, Mallory's like, does that mean Portia, who was the assistant character in season two, didn't say anything, didn't go to the airport and say, like, all, you know, all this stuff was happening with my boss, and I have suspicions.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Given that great Gary is wanted for questioning, it's still possible that Portia said something. But I would say it's more White Lotus for Portia to not say something.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

For people to say, that's none of my business, and it doesn't help my bottom line, so I'm not going to stick my neck out for you.

[Rob Mahoney]

We also know from the talented Mr. Ripley that the Italian authorities on these matters. It's possible to run circles around them. You know, it's, it's, it's not impossible.

[Joanna Robinson]

The documentary, the Talented Mr.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just take it as fact. All versions, novel, series, movie, Otherwise, all. All points of fact.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, who is best poised for enlightenment? I have three candidates. Okay, top three. It's none of the fancy cougars, I regret to tell you.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're not really on the cusp of a breakthrough.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wouldn't say it is Rick, who we've been talking about all season. It is Tim, who is a slightly more recent development and it is coming out of left field. Saxon.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look at that.

[Joanna Robinson]

White men. There's hope for you to be found on HBO Sunday night. Who do you think of the three of them, who do you think is most likely to go home with an expanded worldview, expanded mind?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think Tim would be my pick at this point in time. And it has been a little bit more of a recent momentum. But first of all, shout out to everyone who flagged for us right out of the gate that Tim was given, quote, family Annihilator vibes.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know. And we were like, what are you talking? We were like, we don't even really know this phrase. We don't respond to it. And lo and behold, lo and behold.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is just visualizing murdering himself and then himself and Victoria presumably. And I, based on the, like, what's coming up next episode preview. We see if this stuff bothers you, just jump ahead if you don't want to know. But like, we see a vision of him in a blood splattered shirt that I'm just going to interpret as yet another vision that he's had of him killing one of the kids or all of the kids and not him actually murdering anybody in episode seven.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some real bait for the close trailer watchers. Truly, all of these Tim Ratliff visions.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, but yeah, the idea of identity as a prisoner would hit a certain way with a guy facing literal jail time. And he seems to have his moments in terms of contemplating his future existence in terms of being told maybe for the first time that death is, is in a way a kind of like homecoming and is a release from some of the stresses of this mortal coil. If he takes those lessons incorrectly, he ends up murdering his family. If he takes them in the fate they are presented, then maybe he finds a kind of enlightenment. So who's to say where he ends up?

[Joanna Robinson]

Joe, this is the moment on the podcast where I play a couple clips from you, but as Far as I know, we're still not doing clips on these ringer pods, so I have two TV speeches that I would like to read to you. This is, is, and is not related to our TV monologues question from last week, and we got a lot of emails from people about ones that we missed.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you have any great regrets in terms of ones that we did not hit?

[Joanna Robinson]

I would say the umbrella would be the Wire for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just. Just a huge, colossal oversight on our part with. From a very monologue show. Like, there's maybe eight or nine different exceptional candidates. You can make a top 10 from the wire alone.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, no, I. I've been collecting all of. Yeah, you guys send a ton of emails about this. I've been collecting all of them, so thank you for that. But this comes per your conversation about Tim, the Tim. The scene between Tim and this monk was maybe my favorite white lotus scene ever. Question mark? I really loved it. This is from the Good Place, the finale of the Good Place.

[Rob Mahoney]

There we go.

[Joanna Robinson]

From my guy Chidi, talking about the end of your life. And he says, picture a wave in the ocean. You can see it, measure it, its height, the way the sunlight refracts when it passes through. And it's there, and you can see it, and you know what it is? It's a wave. And then it crashes in the shore and it's gone, but the water is still there. The wave was just a different way for the water to be for a little while. You know, it's one of the conception of death for Buddhists. The wave returns to the ocean, where it came from and where it's supposed to be. And so Chidi's speech, their speech is short. To Eleanor, about the end of your life in the Good Place is one of those TV moments where I was like, this is actually radically changed the way that I think about the end of life. And TV can have that power, you know? And it's just Chidi again, as he cites gear, talking about Buddhist ideology, but Buddhist ideology that I had not been exposed to. And so to hear this monk then talk about being a drop of water, sort of returning back into the ocean. And the visuals that we get with that. And then this speech from Midnight Mass, this is. This is going to be a little long. Bear with me. It's one of the best, like, pieces of writing I've ever heard in my entire life. This is from a character as they're dying, and she says, I am the energy firing the neurons, and I'm returning just by remembering. I'M returning home. And it's like a drop of water falling back into the ocean of which it's always been a part. All things apart. You, me, and my little girl and my mother and my father and everyone who's ever been. Every planet, every animal, every atom, every start, every galaxy, all of it. More galaxies in the universe than grains of sand on the beach. And that's what we're talking about when we say God, the cosmos and its infinite dreams. We are the cosmos dreaming of itself. It's simply a dream that I think is my life every time. But I'll forget this. I always do. I always forget my dreams. But now, in the split second, in the moment I remember, the instant I remember, I comprehend everything at once. There is no time. There is no death. Life is a dream. It's a wish made again and again and again and again and again and on into eternity. And I am all of it. I am everything. I am all I am that I am. Midnight Mass. Go watch it. Great show. So this idea that's been kicking around, a lot of different TV writers, heads of this Buddhist idea of we are a drop of water back into the ocean. We are a wave crashing on the shore. Whatever the case may be and the way in which it is used, especially in those two examples of characters on the brink of death, death chosen death, whatever, as a comfort, as a sort of uplift. This is a way to think about death, and this is a way that you, the viewer, can watch the death of a beloved character and not feel devastated by it, but instead feel hopeful about what that means for, you know, this. This sort of peaceful future for. For these various characters, especially in the case of Midnight Mass, characters who have experienced a lot of, like, torment and grief. What do you want to say about this concept as it's executed in the show here?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think I would just reiterate that, like, in those contexts, I think having that sort of scale and that understanding of you are a very small place in a very large universe and an infinite timeline that stretches in all possible directions, that can be such a comforting thought for so many different people. And seeing yourself as, you know, as the Monk lays out this sort of, like, lost connection that so many people, specifically young people, have with nature and within. They're chasing after these pleasures and they are running from pain and they're losing sight of what is actually happening here. This broader ecosystem that you are tapped into and you're a part of, whether you like it or not. But for people like Tim and people like Victoria, the. What are they gonna think and say at the club crowd?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Their identity is anchored in such a different and ultimately, like, less material place. Right. It's like. It's so subjective. It is going to, like, be breezed around by the wind. And so the idea of that character specifically having to confront the vastness of existence and his ultimately very, very small place in it, I think can both simultaneously be the relief from the expectations that he's talked about previously. As far as, like, from the day he was born, you know, he was the grandson of a governor, he was the son of a great businessman. He gets to kind of wash away some of that in being a droplet for maybe the first time in his conception. Yeah, but that's a really jarring thought and one that completely rewires your sense of identity. And so you get this ultimately, like, much more tethered place within the universe itself and a broader understanding of what your very ultimate, like, very small trials have to do with anything else, which is not much. But in doing so, you have to admit that everything that you're going through is small and that you yourself are a droplet. And I don't know if Tim's ready for that yet. I don't know if Victoria is ready for that. She certainly doesn't seem to be. But I look forward to their journey with it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's interesting because we got this email from our listener Emily, who sort of premised her point of view and the fact that she's white American. Her parents are white American, but she was born Buddhist because they converted before she was born. So she was raised Buddhist. Buys Buddhist Paris. But talking about the way in which these. These I. These Buddhist ideologies about being but a drop of water in a larger ocean run. So counter to the American, white American, capitalist American idea of the individual. Yes, the importance of the individual. So what she wrote in her email, she said. The monk's comment in the most recent episode of White Lotus got me thinking about some of the dangers that can come with learning about emptiness in translation while being part of American culture. The monk in the episode is explaining that everything is interdependent and that there is no independent self. But it can easily be misconstrued to seem that one's existence doesn't matter in a way that can lead to suicidal ideation. I think the show was leading us to think about it in that direction from Timothy Ratliff's perspective. When I was a kid, somebody in my parents Sangha Buddhist community died by suicide. And for what I understand it was related to when they were studying about emptiness. It can be destabilizing concept to learn about, especially for someone who is otherwise fully immersed in hyper individualist American culture where the importance of self comes above all else. So thinking about Tim Ratliff as we meet him, as, as. As we walk into this. This space where he's like surveying it and feeling like King, just like, I've done everything right in this world and here's my beautiful family and here's this expensive villa that we can afford the best. And Pam, I have no time for your ideas about what spiritual activities I might pursue. I just want to go to the gym and be on my phone. And that's what I want from this trip. And so he hasn't really been to.

[Rob Mahoney]

The gym lately, I got to say. He had like one hard treadmill run.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. A lot of showers, a lot of outdoors.

[Rob Mahoney]

His heart rate's been up one way or the other. So I understand.

[Joanna Robinson]

A lot of pacing, you know, he's putting in. He's putting his steps.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're right. You're right. He's getting the steps in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so. So is it too late for Tim Ratliff? Maybe. But what about your friend and mine, Saxon?

[Rob Mahoney]

Because I think he would embrace some nothingness right now. Today AT T Mobile, I'm joined by.

[Joanna Robinson]

A special co anchor. What up, everybody?

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

Respect.

[Rob Mahoney]

We up out of here. See how you can save on wireless.

[Joanna Robinson]

And streaming versus the other big guys.

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

One of our listeners pointed out, and this is like a really great reminder, Jack pointed out that in the story of the. Of the Buddha who, Who was called Siddhartha before he became the Buddha, like he was a prince, an indulged, pampered prince, who after a life of. But more specifically a very intensive night of debauchery. Please email me monkeyshoot gmail.com if I'm getting this all wrong, but I don't think. Think so anyway. But maybe has goes and sits under a tree until he understands enlightenment and lives an aesthetic lifestyle and all this sort of stuff like that. So, like, I'm not saying that Saxon is going to go meditate under a tree and, and learn the whole errors of his ways, but is there a way in which we leave this trip, we come here with Piper being the one who's just like, I've got it all together. I'm reading books about identity. I'm going to go to a monastery, blah, blah. And we're like, saxon's the biggest piece of shit we've ever met in our entire life. He's disgusting. And then on the boat home, it's Saxon sort of reading the book and, and trying to figure out something out about his life and. And Piper who's like, well, monastery life is not for me. Do you know what I mean? Is that. Is that, is that interesting to you in a sort of journey that White Lotus might explore?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's absolutely interesting to me. I think it's sort of an extension of if we want to kind of put the incest aside for a moment, some of the dynamic flipping that's happening between him and Laki, right? This whole idea of everything that he is teaching Laki is about approaching life as a predator, right? Approaching life knowing that other people want to be used. But what if it turns out that, like, Saxon has a part of him that, because of his own direction list, is yearning to be used. And I think there's a read on basically every conversation he has with Chelsea where he is desperate for her to use him and then offended when she will not. That kind of contributes to this idea. Like, he even referred to himself in episode five as a blank page, which is not the flex that you think it is necessarily, if you're Saxon. But I think speaks to this idea that he is soulless in the way that she prescribes. There is an emptiness to him that is yearning to be filled. And maybe only now, having gone through quite a trip with his brother, quite a tugboat voyage, is he finally ready to come out on the other side, ready to read a book or ready to consider himself in a context other than being, you know, daddy's boy at the office.

[Joanna Robinson]

That moment where she says, you're soulless, I think it's just such an opportunity. And maybe I'm just, like, hoping for too much from, like, a shitty dude like Saxon, but, like, he seemed genuinely to be able to receive that. And the way she said it, too.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Was not unkindly, but just sort of matter of fact, you're soulless.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's a. It's a little unkindly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know how that doesn't come off somewhat unkindly, but she says it.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, like, kind of just matter of factly, I guess.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, totally. And it's so clear to Chelsea who Saxon is and how little he has to offer her.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And so is. Is there. Is there growth opportunities here for Saxon other than the. The mad, sick gains that he can get crushing that protein powder? You know, I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that part's going well, though. Like, he's pounding. He's pounding the protein shakes. Everyone hates the sound of the blender, but he will not be deterred.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, let's talk about the ladies, shall we? Laurie, Kate, Jacqueline, absolute fallout from the night before. With love and respect to a number of our listeners who wrote in wanting to make sure that I clocked wish books, Jacqueline and Lori are reading poolside. Rest assured, Rob Mahoney is really the. The better, more diligent freeze framer among the two of us. But if it's a book cover, I am.

[Rob Mahoney]

Character cracks a book, I'm ready. Joe's. Joe, is your gal. Like this. This is your zone.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jacqueline's reading Barbra Streisand's biography, which is just perfect for her. And by the way, great read. Uh, if. And a great listen to great audiobook experience. But her book came out the same month my book came out, and I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Remember, like, oh, so your rivals, you and Barb.

[Joanna Robinson]

Barb. Barb has me handily beat. Don't even worry about the egot queen. She's unbothered. Um, but she. My co author, was reading. Was, like, reading her book, and he was just, like, would come to the like, as we're on book tour. He's like, okay, this is the latest thing I learned from Barbara Stranson. This is the crazy she was up to. So great read. Lori's reading Modern Lovers by Emma Straub. And what I love about this. So Modern Lovers, it was just like a rom com sort of vacation read. Makes sense to me. A little less calm than Rom, but it's. It's about a group of former band mates from the 1980s and their children living in Brooklyn. And it's about sort of like what they were like when they were younger and they were bandmates and how they're living now as adults and, you know, did everyone who was in love with everyone then wind up with the right people now? How are their children? How are they all relating to each other? The very. The years of history and how it can burden your adult relationship or support and inform your adult relationship in the past and the present, coming back and forth. So that is like a very perfect as Lori's like, whoever chains really. Or like, it's always been like this with Jacqueline. She always does this. Here she is doing it to me again.

[Rob Mahoney]

Those 10th grade wounds are still really coming out. And I, I get it. Like, there's some things like, that you never forget. And I think this is what's sort of baked into this lifelong friendship, so to speak. Of what? You know, whatever relationship these ladies have to each other, you never forget those things, you know, like, it's always in the back of your head and it's sort of informing and rolling into the next thing, but it's never totally washed away.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is interesting to me, Rob, because I know that you're. You're friends with, like, you're still friends with the people you grew up with, right? Like, those are like the people that you are close friends with. I do not keep friends.

[Rob Mahoney]

Those people are out.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't. I'm. And that's. That's like a different psychological issue. But, like, I. I have like, just a very few people who have. Who have, like, known me that long. So for you, like. But you also strike me as like a very, like, low drama person in general. So, like, is this something that feels ever dramatic to you or is it something that just feels like, incredibly comforting to be around people who have known you for that long? You know what I mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think for many people, the drama fizzles out, right? It's like, that's the part. The very visceral, like, how you felt when you were 15 years old. That part gets muted and Muted and muted over time. But then when you see the echoes, supposedly from people who have grown and change, and these are, you know, 30 years from those events. Yeah, I think that's where it starts, like, really sticking out in people's brains. Right. That's where, like, neurons start firing off of, like, is this person as evolved as I thought they were? Is our relationship as evolved as I thought it was? Is this under the bridge at all? Or are these waters just continuing to rage and this is just what it's going to be for the rest of our lives? So I think it is the. It's the circular nature of those things when it happens that makes it so acutely notable and painful.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think that, like, Laurie is not someone who has ever struck us as, like, particularly sedate or under control.

[Rob Mahoney]

Given the sedate maybe, but assisted the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sablunk guzzling that we've been witnessing from day one. That being said, I like what you're saying about this sort of, like, visceral, like, memory of. Of, you know, previous wrongs from Jacqueline have just enervated, like, just. Just. She is off out of control in a way that I love to see.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, she cares about the Valentine stuff, but she doesn't really care about the Valentine's. I mean, that's where it's like, Laurie is kind of telling the truth when she says, like, I am just curious. But also she's speaking from a. What she's really mad about is that guy from when they were 15. That's what actually is bothering her. And you can never change that guy and what happened. You can only hope that you have some closures for it. And clearly from these three women, these are not women who practice a lot of closure, who actually circle up and do the work and talk things through. They're all at such different frequencies in terms of their conflict resolution. You can imagine that they've never actually worked through any of their stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think also, yes, absolutely. And also for Lori, I feel for her so much because it's not just whatever happened with Valentin or whatever is reminding her of 10th grade. It's also like she was. She was really feeling herself the night before.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she was just really like, I'm doing it. I look great on this dance floor. I look great with my top off in this pool. Everyone, Everyone thinks I'm great. I've gone through the shitty divorce. My child likes to throw things, you know, or whatever it is. She's a hitter, you know, and. But. But I still got it and then to feel foolish, to feel made a fool of that, like, perhaps was everyone just laughing at me behind my back and plotting this other thing the whole time. I really feel for her. Kate. Okay, this is. I know you haven't had a chance to listen to the conversation that Mal Bill and I had, but, like, we had a slight disagreement here about, like, what we thought Kate was exactly up to in this moment. So what. How are you reading Kate's delivery of the news to Laurie and then her, like, retreat into. Well, I just thought you would think it was funny.

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually do kind of take her at face value with some of that. I think she thought she was participating in relatively harmless gossip.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. This is what we've been doing this whole time.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's what we've been doing this whole time. It's what me and my Austin friends do together. Like, it's just a little bit of chatter behind the scenes, and then we're all gonna go about our day, and maybe we'll exchange a knowing glance as we have throughout this trip. I don't think. I really don't think she understood what this was gonna do to Laurie. And maybe that is a misdiagnosis of the entire history of that dynamic between Jacqueline and Laurie and whatever happened way back when. Maybe it's just a misunderstanding of what kind of person Laurie is and the fact that she is not one to play with the kinds of niceties that are so important to Kate. Like, Kate is a. We have to keep this boat steady to get through this trip at all costs. We will not rock it in any conceivable direction. And she seems most put out by the fact that Laurie would indicate at all that the information came from Kate. Like, that's where she is hurt in sort of this new triangulation of pain. And I love that after setting up every permutation of two women against the other over the first five episodes of the series, now it's every fancy for themself, you know, like, there. There is no. There is no one to turn to but their own insecurities. I love that that's where this dynamic has ended up.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, every fancy for herself. And I do not envy them what they've got going on here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Nope.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is this going to come to. Like, how is this going to culminate? Is this. Is this the kind of thing that it's like, it's going to come to blows or we're just gonna. The shot back home on the boat is them instead of them sort of gathered together, giggling happily it's them on, like, three different parts of the boat in isolation from each other, provided all of them make it onto the boat alive.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I mean, Lori seems like she could be a fighter. I could. I could see her being a couple glasses deep and getting. Getting a little physical. I could see that her, like, kickboxing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Moves that she keeps showing us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Like, I bet Jacqueline's done, like, some action movie training, but maybe is not as. She's not as attuned to having, like, to being in a fight with real hands as you might want to be. If Laurie's coming at you, Kate is not participating in any of that. Or if she did, it would take, like, a different kind of explosion and agitation of that character that we've never really seen before. Right. Like, she is, to a certain extent, unflappable. You can come at her for her church, you can come at her for voting history, and she is going to bless your heart and move on and keep the peace. Like, I think it would be. It would be really interesting if we see something different from that character, but she would really have to be pushed there.

[Joanna Robinson]

I want to go back to the boys. I'm sorry, I know you thought we were done with talking about Saxon and Laki, but I have to address something that. Two things. Okay. So one is I've seen this theory floating around. I've. We got emails about it. I've seen it on social media. This idea that, like, Lachlan spit the drugs out. This is when the freeze framers come to, like, bite themselves in the ass. Honestly, that Lachlan spit the drugs out and was not at all impaired.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

In the night. And just sort of made a very purposeful move on his brother. I think the episode, whatever it is you think you saw in the spitting in, the spitting out or not of the. Of the drugs in the previous episode. I think his. The way in which the memory comes back to him at the meditation center, I think negates that no matter what. But I will also say inside of White Lotus, unlike, say, Severance, where, like, you can be forgiven for some of your wild speculations, because that's. That's what Severance is courting to a certain degree.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

White Lotus to my memory, is not really a gotcha show. It's not really a, like, ooh, if you pay, Pay. Pay close, close, close attention. We sort of tricked you in this moment and we're gonna reveal that later. That's not something White Lotus to my memory has ever done. So I think you're barking up the wrong tree if that's. If that's what you're trying to pursue. But I do think what's very clear for both Lachlan and Saxon and, and we did get some emails about this is like, this is a clear case of, like, no one's in. In a place where they can consent inside of this evening. You know, and like, everyone is impaired. All judgment is impaired. I would say that, like, Saxon was definitely. I don't know. I don't know. Can you take. Well, I don't know. I don't wanna. I don't want to get too gnarly into the idea of consent, but, like, no one was able to give consent inside of the situation. This is a horror.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, like, I think it's fun to make some jokes about it, but it is also a horrible situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, you know, it is a horrible situation. I think it's incredibly murky. I will say this. I think when they wake up in the morning, I think both Saxon and Locky have some memory of what happened and it is kind of coming to them in stages. And I agree with you. Lockheed has sort of the maybe putting all the pieces eureka moment when he's trying to silently meditate and quiet his monkey mind. And that monkey mind is in full effect and will not be silenced at that particular point in time. Very weird moment to be thinking about jerking off your brother, to say the least. But I think when they wake up and they're finally kind of meeting church.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what I mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

This is the thing. There's a time and a place.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

When they meet on the yacht deck the morning after and Saxon's drinking his coffee and Laki's coming up from the bedroom, it feels like Laki is looking for affirmation from Saxon that, like, this was okay. Like, we are okay. Like we're kind. Like he's looking for Saxon to kind of break the ice about it. And Saxon is, I think, ready to never speak of this ever again to anyone, under any circumstances. And where he's most riled up in the episode is when mostly Chelsea and Chloe start bringing it up and maybe maybe needling him a little bit on it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. On the Locky front, it's Sam Navola's performance in that morning after moment is like, very interesting to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm tempted to say it's almost like a subconscious, like, subconscious power shift, you know, Mal and I were both particularly struck by the fact that they're Wearing each other's swimming trunks.

[Rob Mahoney]

I didn't even clock that on the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Other side of this that, like, Saxon and his beleaguered state pulls on his brother's swim trunks and they're just like a little too. They're like, not quite fastened at the top. They're just like a little too small for him. And then Locky's sort of slightly swimming in his brother's trunks, and it's just sort of like this reversal of power and dominance and. And all this other stuff. And I think that's sort of in the mix without any intentionality.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Behind it, you know, we did get that Lachlan line of like, someday I'm gonna take you down in the previous episode. But I don't think any of this was like a targeted. Any kind.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I think there is the thing in the air that we've been talking around all season, which is like, there is a infatuation and attraction and interest in his brother that has been there. You know, like, you're not checking out your brother and watching him go off into the bathroom to jerk off if there's not like some level of intrigue.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But as far as, like, a targeted thing where he's spitting out drugs and manipulating his brother, I just don't think it's ultimately that malicious. I think it is coming from a more instinctive, animalistic kind of place. Right. It is. It is coming from a. A similarly altered place where he is also on something. He is, like, following his particular bliss, maybe not as mindfully as he should be. As far as where that should take him. And I have to say, just from a manual dexterity standpoint, very impressive what he's able to pull off under those circumstances. There's a lot happening. There's a lot of balancing of different tempos. And for an alleged novice, Laki seems to have some natural aptitude.

[Joanna Robinson]

It seems like some real left brain, right brain, sort of. Yeah. Cross communication stuff is going on.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know if I'm impressed, but I. It's notable you're impressed.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's okay. You can say so in a, like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rub your stomach, pat your head kind of way. Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. What about Rick and Chelsea? Or more specifically Rick, I suppose, since we've been talking a bit about Chelsea. But Rick.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a pretty Rick light episode, which makes sense given that, like, half of the runtime of the previous one was Walton Goggins reaction shots. But he's kind of just putting things in motion.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's your take on Rick showing up to a con without one single solitary title from this woman's filmography in his back pocket in order to execute the con.

[Rob Mahoney]

Irresponsible.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is my main sticking point.

[Rob Mahoney]

Complete irresponsibility. It takes. It takes one search. You can't. You can't throw out what you can't read. A plot summary.

[Joanna Robinson]

For comedy's sake. I understand, but, like, I mean, I guess what I'm given to understand is that if this is the kind of thing Rick does, which is the implication as he's talking to Frank, that this is the kind of thing they've done before. Is it. Is he just really bad at it? You know, is he a really bad con man? I don't know, but, like, he's done. No. No research. And then also. And this is, you know, this is Bill's question, and I'm not sure where I fall on this, but do you think Sita is buying it? I do. I think she's all the way in based on, like, the vulnerability of her vanity. But, like, Rick is so bad at this that it's, like, starting to stretch credulity that she would just invite this person into her home based on what the. Exactly. You know, So I think it's starting.

[Rob Mahoney]

To stretch credulity, and I think she's starting to be put out a little bit by the imposition of, you made me come all the way to this restaurant to not have a meeting, and now you want to come to my house for a drink. Like, there's. There's a level of kind of decorum and hospitality that she is willing to participate in for the sake of getting this job, and at some point, it's going to run out. I think for now, she's going along for the ride enough to say, like, I at least want to meet this guy and see what's going on. But she doesn't strike me as oblivious to the fact that Rick is bad at this.

[Joanna Robinson]

In terms of, like, the way this season is pacing out in terms of this, like, build to this episode. Do you think. Do you think in your experience with White Lotus, this is a thing that is just going to build and build and build and build? Obviously, we're headed towards some kind of shootout of some kind, monkeys or otherwise. Is this the kind of thing where people have been complaining for the first half of the season that nothing was happening but when. But they'll only remember on the other side of the season that there was this, like, boat encounter at the very least, not to mention whatever's gonna happen at the shootout. And do you think, like, in a binge scenario, the slowness of the first half of the season wouldn't bother people at all? You know what I mean? Like, my working theory has been that people don't remember what the cadence of White Lotus season is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so, like, are we on a normal track or, you know, we've added an episode? Are we, like, you know, stretching out a bit to fill our runtime? What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it will mostly feel like a White Lotus season by the end of it. And I think ultimately, like, it's just. It's just a factor of the kind of action that we see on screen in White Lotus, which is you're going to remember the incest and not the absence of incest. And so you may have a vague recollection in your mind that, like, oh, I remember thinking that that season was kind of slow, but not really being able to articulate why other than that. And so that feeling can last. But I think ultimately we have the stuff with the rat lifts just really kind of starting to pop off. I would say the stuff with the fancy's just kind of starting to heat up. As far as the real kind of tensions between all three of them simultaneously, we've been building, of course, to Rick and his dad in this ultimate confrontation. And we get not the first sight of Scott Glenn on the show, but the first sound of his gravelly voice. And I'm sure, knowing Scott Glenn and the way he performs, another deeply philosophical conversation to come, as he ought to do in basically every show he appears in. And so it's like, we're gonna get the heady, emotional stuff in basically every plotline that exists right now, to say nothing of whatever happens with Belinda and Greg and all that mess and the dinner party that. I want to say this from Saxon's point of view. If you do participate in a threesome with your brother and another woman, and that woman invites you and your parents to a dinner party, do not go to the dinner party. Why would you ever do that?

[Joanna Robinson]

Why would Saxon go? Why would Belinda go? Why would anyone go to Greg Gary's? And yet, do you not feel certain that they're all gonna go?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, they're gonna go, all right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tim now is on board. He's like, yeah, I've. I've been. I've been wrestling with the enormity of existence in my small place in it all day. I would love some more d'oeuvres at this point.

[Joanna Robinson]

So Piper and Locky are going to spend the night at the monastery together. Tim and Victoria. It's going to be. Everything's not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look, if your dad accidentally creates a couple portmanteau nickname for you, I just think bad things are going to happen. I don't see that going well.

[Joanna Robinson]

If Tim and Victoria and Locky. Sorry. And Saxon and Belinda and Zion are going to Greg, Gary's and Chelsea.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wait, is. Is Harp. Do you think Belinda's gonna make it? Because she's also gotten this competitive invite from Fabian to come watch her watch him perform.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, that's my question. Like, I'm trying to figure out where everyone's gonna be next week.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think Belinda's at the party? Do you think Zion goes to the party alone?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's possible they split up and she goes to Greg's and Zion stays. In part. I don't know if you clocked this or if I'm just misreading it. Zion was given Fabian a bit of a look.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, why didn't you see it?

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, as you know, Fabian comes by their table at breakfast and invites Belinda.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's just like, it's. On the one hand, it could be a kind of skepticism. On the other hand, like, there's a read on that performance where he's kind of looking at Fabian like a piece of meat a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, interesting. And.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's kind of. It's kind of clocking him in a way. I have no idea if that's the case or not. But there is a lingering shot of Zion's reaction that seemed notable.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love when Fabian's like, are you feeling better? And she's like, not really.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not a bit. But we're gonna move on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not really. Yeah, I guess I read that more of like, I'm judging you for your behavior unless I want to see you sing a beautiful ballad. But I'm delighted to be proven wrong.

[Rob Mahoney]

Zion just seems open minded in general, I will say. He takes walking in on his mom. He's pretty cool about the whole thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stride in stride, and then guy talk and mook. And perhaps Laurie and Kate and Jacqueline are going to the fight.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Laurie's flipped on this pretty hard, and it seems like she didn't want to go in the morning. But then when it became clear that it could be used as a way to needle Jacqueline, now all of a sudden, she really wants to go and to put them all in the same place again. I think they will probably end up there just because I don't Know where else the fancies would end up? I guess they could just stay at the hotel. But it does feel like we're kind of gravitating toward. They did seem to appreciate Suritala's performance, so maybe they just like a live show. There is a thing, too, as we were talking about, you know, Rick and Suri, La's like, incredulity or lack thereof about his story and her desperation as an actress. Like, we get Laurie invoking very specifically this idea with Jacqueline this week of, like, she is an aging actress who only gets her validation from male attention. And there's. There is something, you know, like, Sritala has been very eager to make that comparison with Jacqueline of, like, oh, we are both performers together. And I think putting them on a continuum in that way where it's like, you see the increasing desperation for women in that position and the increasing desperation in people in that line of work over time, I think puts Jacqueline in such a fascinating place as she's sort of navigating all this stuff. Cause I wonder if there was a world where if she doesn't get the call from her husband Harrison, at the beginning of this episode where she's maybe more open with the girls about Valentine, where it is, like, a thing they can talk about and is. Is maybe even funny or that she's not denying it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, that's the thing is, like, it's all gonna bother Laurie no matter what.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

But if Jacqueline shows up and she's like, I was feeling so insecure, I couldn't get a hold of Harrison. Like, there's a way in which they're not allowed to show weakness to each other because they've got this, like, competitive thing going on. So, like, they talk about each other's weaknesses without sort of, like, bringing each other their vulnerabilities to each other. But if Jacqueline had showed up at breakfast and she's like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I know you guys were vibing. I just was feeling so desperate, you know, blah, blah. Would Laurie still be pissed? Yes. Would it be as, like, volcanic as it is? No. Because, you know, Jacqueline lying about it as a viewer, Jacqueline lying about it is so much almost worse than her doing it.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, it is volcanic, too, but it's like, we're not even at the magma stage yet. We're just, like, venting out hot air. It's just, like, very. There's a lot of antagonism happening, but it's not truly explosive in the way that I Think it's gonna get truly explosive.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Okay. Run for the hills. The magma's coming. Anything else you want to talk about? Oh, my lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think I want to dig back into Saxon just a little bit more because. Sorry, I don't know what that means in this context. I don't know that I want to know. But this idea that he's been proposing throughout the season of, like, he's been talking about Piper as someone who sort of hides away from the world and hides away from her problems. And as soon as Chelsea and Chloe start talking to him about the fact that he had a threesome with his brother, which, first of all, as soon as Chloe brings it up, we get the reaction shot where Saxon looks to Chelsea for her reaction. Do not look. You do not want to see what Amy Lou has in store for you in that moment. Even though for us was wonderful. But as soon as they start giving him a hard time, he's like, I'm going back to my room. Like, I'm going back to hide. Hide away now from the problems that are kind of out here. And I think, like, Patrick Schwarzenegger is so great in this episode at basically being, like, in perpetual gag reflex mode. Like, he just cannot get out from under that visceral feeling, that, like, very physical reaction to what has happened. And I think it's a physical reaction to obviously being in a weird, incestuous situation with your brother in a way you didn't anticipate. But also this whole idea of, like, as we're dealing with concepts of identity, like, he is not the older brother in control giving the younger brother advice anymore. He's the guy sitting on the side. Here's the thing. Sometimes in life, you're the person. You know what? I was gonna. I was gonna say you're the person getting jerked off for doing the jerking. I'm gonna put it this way. Lachlan has the agency in that sexual exchange.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sometimes you're driving the tugboat, and sometimes you're merely a pastor.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's exactly what I mean to say. Thank you for the save, Joe. But, yeah, like, Saxon is laying there, right? He is experiencing something, and he is present, and he is tripping out of his mind. Lockie is in command in a totally different way that I don't think Saxon understands how to wrap his head around.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think it's interesting to think about all these people and where they are in terms of, like, their identity versus where we found them at the beginning. And that's why I'm talking about all these, like, sort of of mirror flips on the. On the boat ride home. Like, that's something that the White Lotus is always interested in. And I think something like Jacqueline and Lori and Kate thinking about Lori is like, you know, you identified this in the first couple episodes. Yes, they were all gossiping about each other, but it was very much like Jacqueline and Kate and Lord and Lori was what sort of the first couple episodes felt like. Yes, they were complimenting each other about how good they look and they're like, oh, Lori, you're also here, sort of stuff. So Lori's place is supposed to be. I'm grateful. I'm just grateful to be here with my two friends who are more polished than I am. Again, this is nothing to do with how hot we think Carrie Coon actually is. My friends who are more polished than I am, maybe I have a bit more money than I do. So I'm just supposed to be here and be grateful. And I don't care. I almost sleep where I'll sleep in the, you know, next to the monkeys. Like, I don't care. It's fine to like you, Jacqueline. Yeah, I'm not gonna just be, like, meek and go along with what, you know, like Jacqueline. Jacqueline is a person who's like, gets to be the gracious, giving host to this person who is, like being attacked, kind of rightly so, by her friend. I mean, who the cares if she has sex with Valentin? But, like, the way she did it is the problem.

[Rob Mahoney]

And the lying about it is a problem.

[Joanna Robinson]

The lying about it is the problem.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, what I love about the fancies in this episode is that they're all wrong in their own ways and they're all misbehaving in their own ways. Even Laurie, who I think we are naturally inclined to feel for, given the way last episode kind of unfolded. And she was having such a great time, as you said. She was in her power and really feeling herself. But she turns into a straight up shit stirring chaos agent in this episode. She is provoking reaction as much as anything. Like she's. It's a kind of like retribution in revenge, but it's not like a very clear cut one. And so it results in her just, like, lashing out in a bunch of different directions at once sometimes. Kate is taking fire for, you know, not being, quote, unquote honest, even though I wouldn't say Laurie herself is being 100% honest throughout this episode. Jacqueline is obviously pretty wounded by a lot of the things that Laurie is saying, even though there's some truth to it. But attacking your friends in that particular way, when maybe you should have resolved those things 30 years ago, also has something to do with you. So no one is getting out of this clean. And this is. This is often what is, to me, the best parts of White Lotus is when everyone has their hands dirty, everyone has shit all over them, and there's just like, no. There's no escape. Right. It's like the only way through is to either clean this up or you just have to wear it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And like, the hope is that whatever shit you're going through on the other side, you come out with a better understanding of what you want or who you are in some way. And again, what is usually the case on White Lotus is that it will be true for a few people.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And not true for most people. So who's to say? Anything else you want to say about this episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do want to talk about Victoria, who doesn't have a ton to do in this episode. But I will say the. The permascowl that Parker Posey is delivering and of course, the long vowel sounds are just working overtime as usual. Her read on Piper continues to fascinate me. And this sort of proposal that she brings to the table of, like, I've seen how these. Exactly that of having seen the lodgings at the monastery, challenging her daughter to sleep here for literally one night. And overall, after she proposes that. And Piper has to go talk to some of the monks about those accommodations, the look of just like deer in the headlights terror on Piper's face when she turns around, I think is quite telling. And the fact that she only finds some relief when Lachlan says he will also come. She's not ready for this. This girl is just not ready for the life that she's trying to embark on. And I think ultimately White Lotus has a lot to say about, you know, like, as it engages with pretty directly in this episode, the spiritual malaise of younger people who are so desperate to find something. And Piper is engaging in that idea more openly than, I would say, any of the younger characters we've ever had on White Lotus. Right. There's people who. Who are kind of like, have all of the privilege in the world and don't know what to do with it and don't know what direction to point their life. She thinks she knows. It's just unfortunate that it seems to be that she might be very, very wrong about what it is that she's actually ready for.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that and you and I sort of Clocked that several episodes ago when she was just sort of like, looking around and was just sort of like, yep, this is the place for me. I can tell.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is the one.

[Joanna Robinson]

I can tell. On the. On the. On the pleasure seekers finding only pain front that we heard from this monk inside of this episode. Again, I would circle back to someone like Saxon who's like, running after pleasure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

In this full moon party scenario, this sort of, like, lotus eater pleasure seeker mode and finding extreme psychic pain on the other side of it in terms of not just the physical pain of the hangover, but the psychic pain of, like, what the. What the did I do? What boundary did I cross that, you know, they're never gonna. They're never gonna want to hear this back at Duke, you know, the fragrance aren't gonna want to know. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

They might want to hear about it. I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And something I didn't get into much when I was talking to Bill and Malibut this episode because I never love to bore them with Literature Corner. Um, is incest as this staple of, like, Southern Gothic storytelling. Classic Southern Gothic storytelling.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

That it shows up in. I don't know. You've already come out against some of our. Our profound, most famous novelists, such as Charles Dickens. Anything. Do you have anything to say about Faulkner? William Faulkner?

[Rob Mahoney]

See, this is where you've stumbled into the right place. Joe Faulkner is my guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

An overly flowery kind of prose. Who am I to turn that away? You know, I think over on the, like, Hemingway, Faulkner spectrum, I'm probably, like, 70. Faulkner 30. Hemingway, ultimately, I find Hemingway, like, maybe a little too sparse for my particular.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, he's Very, very short, declarative sentences. All right, so William Faulkner, Sound of the Fury, a classic incest tale for the ages. Tennessee Williams, Glass Menagerie, Suddenly Last Summer, Streetcar on, not Streetcar necessarily, but, like, those stories often. There's often like a bomb hitting hidden somewhere in the family's background. And whether or not it's homosexuality or incest, those are like, the two things that Tennessee Williams likes to go for. And like, Mike Will, you know, Mike White's like, why not Both sort of the. The vibe here and then. I know you love you like a UK TV series, but were you ever a Gavin and Stacy watcher?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I don't. I don't think I really know Gavin and Stacy at all. What's the deal there?

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, we don't need to go into it, but there's this, like, long running bid on Gavin and Stacy from Rob Bryden, who's a great comedian about this, like, fishing trip that this uncle and nephew went on. And just like, nobody wants to talk about what happened on the. Whatever happened on the fishing trip, nobody wants to talk about it. The uncle and the nephew don't want to be in the same room together. They don't want to talk about it. There's like, occasional hints about it that it was like, awfully cold. What are we gonna do? Like, all this sort of stuff like that. It's just this like, like multi season fishing trip joke that just sort of lingers in the background of that. Of that great UK sitcom. And I was thinking about that a lot when I was watching this. But, yeah, like, this idea of, like, are our most Southern storytellers and the idea of incest. Much smarter people than me can email [e-mail] if you understand why that has been such a part of that kind of literature. But given that Mike White has like, ripped these archetypes, you know, given that Victoria is like the most Blench Dubois sort of like, you know, Southern flower that we could possibly find, like, what is he engaging with there when he goes in this particular direction?

[Rob Mahoney]

I had to offer a layman guess as a, As a native Southerner myself, sure, I would say.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you're. Don't you think that, like, Texan Southerner is different from.

[Rob Mahoney]

It is definitely. You know, there's a, There's a revolutionary spirit, there's a frontierism that's a little bit different in Texas.

[Joanna Robinson]

Your. Your classic fondness for beans.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, it's like, again, there's a lot going on here. It's a very diverse place. But as far as these, like, Southern empires go, I think what you're running into is this, like, very specific intersection in the storytelling between these huge familial structures in which it's not just the ties that bind us as fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, siblings, like across. Across the family tree, but these are like an investment in legacy, right? Like, there is a. There is a. Something that we are participating in that is bigger than us and thus where we have something to lose in this case, like with the Ratliffs family fortune, disgrace, all of that. And so it's like you have these very well articulated familial structures and a suggestion from the people who are in them that that's important to them. Whether it is or not, your mileage may vary versus this, like, Kate level obsession with decorum. Right? Like nicety, politeness. And so it's this idea of you have to project in a very specific way. You have a very messy family, and how do you reconcile those things? And usually the skeletons end up popping out of the closet whether you want them to or not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Love it. Love that interpretation. Great stuff from you, Rob Mahoney. All right. Anything else? Any other nuanced incest takes you want to share with us?

[Rob Mahoney]

I just can't believe we're here. Like, I would say it's one thing for incest to be like Front street commentary in Game of Thrones, in Fantasy Fair, you know, like, it's just, at this point, not that big of a deal for a character on one of those shows to go to bed and wake up dreaming of going down on his mom. That's just, like, part of the fabric of those stories. But this is, like, ostensibly close to real life people. And I feel like it's always a very different thing when you trip out of genre into, like, as we talked about, like, kind of sexually transgressive ideas and portrayals on screen. And even as we're trying to diagnose in this episode, like, the consent of it is so murky. Their dynamic is so perpetually unbalanced by the nature of their relationship. And we're out here, and Mike White is like, if you're watching this show, you're gonna have to talk about this, and you're gonna have to engage with these ideas, and you're gonna watch these characters go through extraordinarily uncomfortable circumstances afterwards. And if I have one great regret about this episode, it's that we don't have to see Saxon and Laki go back to the same bedroom at the end of it, at the end of the night, because Laki is off with Piper. And so for now, they at least have some space from each other where they have to, like, process their own shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great point. Great point. Well made. All right, well, this has been a very special episode of.

[Rob Mahoney]

It sure has.

[Joanna Robinson]

Joe Podcast of White Lotus. What a time to be alive. We'll be back with our pit coverage. Incredible stuff happening over on the Pit. Really recommend. And thank you, Rahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

What a pleasure. What a treat. What a delight to speak to you about this episode of television. Thanks to John Richter, Justin Sales, and Kai Grady for this work on this episode as well. I will be back later this week, and until then, bye.