'The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 7 Deep Dive and Theories: Bad Con Artists

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast – Episode Summary Title: 'The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 7 Deep Dive and Theories: Bad Con Artists
Release Date: April 2, 2025
Host/Author: The Ringer
Participants: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney

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Introduction

In this episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosts Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney delve deep into the penultimate episode of The White Lotus Season 3, titled "Bad Con Artists." They explore various plot developments, character arcs, and listener theories, setting the stage for the highly anticipated finale.

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Recording Plans and Episode Focus

Joanna begins by announcing the upcoming coverage of the finale, mentioning that they will record their discussion promptly on Monday morning following the episode's release. Rob humorously suggests the podcast's email should be monkeyshootoutmail.com, referencing the chaotic events anticipated in the finale.

Notable Quote:

• Rob Mahoney [00:56]: "This week or next week, we should say, because the monkeys will be shooting out or getting shot at."

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Analysis of Episode 7: "Bad Con Artists"

Overall Impressions

Rob Mahoney expresses a lukewarm reaction to Episode 7, noting that while the episode contains strong character moments and performances, it feels like a setup for the finale rather than a standout episode on its own.

Notable Quote:

• Rob Mahoney [03:13]: "I liked it... but the penultimate episodes have felt very penultimate lately."

Character Discussions

1. Tim Ratliff:

   • Rob criticizes Tim as a "wet noodle," highlighting his lack of forward momentum and increasing suicidal ideation.
   • Rob Mahoney [04:02]: "Tim has been a wet noodle for weeks. Can't sit in a chair, can't put two sentences together."

2. Rick and Chelsea:

   • Joanna expresses dissatisfaction with Rick’s character development, feeling unsatisfied with his arc.
   • Joanna Robinson [03:58]: "I feel largely unsatisfied by what I have been presented with here."

3. Belinda:

   • Rob appreciates some plot movement with Belinda, specifically her negotiation with Greg Garrias over $100,000.
   • Rob Mahoney [04:16]: "We get the official kind of offer from Greg Garrias to what he can give her, which is $100,000."

4. Mook and Guy Talk:

   • Discussing the dynamic between Mook and Guy Talk, Rob feels both characters remain underdeveloped, with Mook being manipulated into changing her inherently gentle nature.
   • Rob Mahoney [05:53]: "I think Mallory's ambitious."

5. Laurie and Jacqueline:

   • Joanna and Rob critique Jacqueline’s portrayal, finding her less sympathetic compared to other characters.
   • Joanna Robinson [58:05]: "White Lotus is not a show that necessarily has characters like this have any kind of self-awareness."

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Listener Emails and Theories

Jessica’s Muay Thai Insight

Jessica, a trained Muay Thai fighter, draws parallels between Muay Thai rituals and the confrontations in the episode, emphasizing respect and preparation for conflict.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Robinson [07:03]: "Jessica is a trained Muay Thai fighter... paying respect."

Morgan’s Emmy Predictions

Morgan discusses potential Emmy nominations for The White Lotus cast, suggesting performances by actors like Isaacs, Goggins, Rockwell, and Schwarzenegger.

Notable Quote:

• Morgan [19:31]: "My predictions for nominations would be Isaacs, Goggins, Rockwell, and possibly Schwarzenegger."

Joanna’s Manic Pixie Dream Girl Query

Joanna addresses a listener’s concern about Chelsea and Mook fitting the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" trope, debating whether these characters are too reliant on others for their development.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Robinson [24:16]: "Can Chelsea and Mook beat the manic pixie dream girl allegations?"

Amber’s Legal Doctrine Insight

Amber, a lawyer and legal journalist, connects the show’s plot to the legal doctrine "fruit of the poisonous tree," questioning if Tim Ratliff can evade consequences due to illegal evidence collection.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Robinson [64:33]: "It's the fruit of the poisonous tree. This idea that if you obtain evidence illegally, anything you discover that comes from that first illegal act is tainted."

Listener Gch on Guy Talk’s Character Arc

Gch raises concerns about Guy Talk potentially betraying his pacifist nature in the finale, fearing it would undermine his established character traits.

Notable Quote:

• Rob Mahoney [55:12]: "I think he's going to shoot."

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Con Movie Discussion

Joanna and Rob indulge in a discussion about their favorite con movies, highlighting classics like Vertigo, The Sting, Catch Me If You Can, Matchstick Men, and The Brothers Bloom. They compare these films to the failed con attempt in The White Lotus, expressing disappointment that the show's con narrative didn't reach its full potential.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Robinson [36:10]: "Whenever someone asks me about you, Joe, I say heists and cons."

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Final Thoughts and Expectations for the Finale

The hosts express mixed feelings about the character developments and plot resolutions, particularly worrying about unresolved storylines and character betrayals. They ponder whether the finale will provide satisfying closures or leave lingering questions about character arcs and plot twists.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Robinson [35:43]: "Will anyone be satisfied with the White Lotus finale?"

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Conclusion

Joanna and Rob wrap up the episode by thanking their listeners, encouraging them to send in more theories and questions, and expressing anticipation for the finale. They also mention upcoming discussions on other shows like The Pit and potential future podcast content.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Robinson [67:01]: "We appreciate the whole team... We'll be back for our episode 8."

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Noteworthy Quotes with Timestamps

• Rob Mahoney [00:56]: "This week or next week... the monkeys will be involved."
• Rob Mahoney [03:13]: "I liked it... but the penultimate episodes have felt very penultimate lately."
• Joanna Robinson [07:03]: "Jessica is a trained Muay Thai fighter... paying respect."
• Morgan [19:31]: "My predictions for nominations would be Isaacs, Goggins, Rockwell, and possibly Schwarzenegger."
• Joanna Robinson [24:16]: "Can Chelsea and Mook beat the manic pixie dream girl allegations?"
• Rob Mahoney [55:12]: "I think he's going to shoot."
• Joanna Robinson [36:10]: "Whenever someone asks me about you, Joe, I say heists and cons."
• Joanna Robinson [35:43]: "Will anyone be satisfied with the White Lotus finale?"
• Joanna Robinson [67:01]: "We appreciate the whole team... We'll be back for our episode 8."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key discussions, character analyses, listener interactions, and the hosts' personal insights. Whether you're a fan of The White Lotus or new to the conversation, this summary provides a thorough overview of the podcast's deep dive into Season 3, Episode 7.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, here we are. Second to last episode of White Lotus. That is what we are here to discuss today. Before we get into that, couple things, programming stuff, I want to say that our White Lotus finale episode, I guess we haven't discussed with the powers that be when it's going up, but we will be recording it Monday morning. Usually we don't record till, like, Tuesday, so you have time to get your takes off your emails in. We're doing kind of right away after the finale on Monday morning. So if you. If you want to send us an email to. Where should they send it, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

Monkeyshootoutmail.com in particular, this week or next week, we should say, because the monkeys will be shooting out or getting shot at, the monkeys will be involved. I feel very confident about this, even.

[Joanna Robinson]

Though Michelle Monahan said on Jimmy Fallon that it was not the monkeys that did it.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is my first rodeo, Joe. You can't fool me. Michelle Monahan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Classic misdirect. Okay? Classic Monahan misdirect. Okay, so listen, that is what is happening with the White Lotus finale. As for the Pit, we are going to record an episode for each of the last two remaining episodes of the Pit this season. Rob and I are doing, like, a double record this week because I will be out next week. That's why we're recording Monday morning for White Lotus. That's why we're recording the Pit finale early. So we will not be able to get your Pit finale reactions, I guess, before we record the finale. That's just something to think about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, all the more reason again to get in your emails as quickly as possible. Uh, an NBA team made a baffling decision recently, and one of their stakeholders described it as urgency is one of our core principles. I have no idea what that means, but here on the Prestige TV podcast, urgency is one of our core principles. You simply must email us your White Lotus theories as quickly after the finale as possible so that we may talk about them on our podcast. And, of course, get us all your pit [e-mail] as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

I gotta say, the. The who's playing Pitfest emails, they're popping off came fast and furious this week, so I'm excited to talk about that with you about the Pit later this week. Also in the ether, we haven't fully decided what we're doing in the following weeks after White Lotus is done. After the Pit is done in the ether, our shows like your friends and neighbors on Apple, the Last of Us on hbo, which Mallory Rubin and I will certainly be covering in full on House of R. Definitely. But may get some treatment or another from Rob and yours truly on this feed. And Poker Face, the show, a show that started it all for us. Us. Rob has a season two. So these are things I'm sure that Justin Sales, who may or may not be listening to this right now, is like, why are you talking about what might be when we haven't discussed, like, discuss what will be. But just wanted to let you know we got some emails being like, are you covering Poker Face? Are you doing this? That's sort of what we're considering right now. Okay. White Lotus. Rob Mahoney, do you like this episode of Television?

[Rob Mahoney]

I liked it. Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will say I don't know what's going on with these shows that we've been covering, Joe, but the penultimate episodes have felt very penultimate lately.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me how.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think just a lot of fits and starts of people moving around and then stopping in place and idling there in an emotional position until the rest of the plot threads can sort of catch up to our climactic moments, I would assume in the finale. So I think what I didn't like about this episode in particular, and there are many great character moments, it's always funny, it's always well acted, it's always well presented.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

It left me with a feeling of, okay, well, the finale really has to hit. And that just means that this episode to me, didn't really do its job. It set the stage for the season, maybe. But as a self contained episode of television, not my favorite thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are there any characters in particular for whom you're feeling that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Tim has been a wet noodle for weeks. Just like, can't sit in a chair, can't put two sentences together. I have no idea what the forward momentum of his plot is supposed to be other than increasingly elaborate suicidal ideation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mm.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's kind of been in one place. Guy Talk and Mook have been stationary for a long time and in this episode have a version of a conversation they basically had like four episodes ago. So I don't really know what's going on with them. Belinda at least gets some movement on her plotline. We get the official kind of offer from Greg Garrias to what he can give her, which is $100,000. I want to get into the negotiation tactics that you and Mallory and Bill talked about on the Sunday pod. As far as how much you should be asking for in these circumstances. But that's at least some plot movement in what otherwise I would say has been a pretty stale part of the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would also. I agree with a lot of. Well, I have some mook and Gaitok asterisks to your take there, but I will say that for me, it's Rick. For me, even though this is supposed to be sort of the big Rick climax to the buildup, I feel to use White Lotus, like, largely unsatisfied by what I have been presented with here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, that's almost a total different category because this is a. This is a Rick episode. I would say this is a Rick episode, and this is a fancies episode first and foremost. Those are the sort of two driving plot lines. Yeah, Rick gets a lot to theoretically do. He gets his own sort of big confrontation monologue moment. And I can't say that I am feeling a lot coming out of it. I can't say that I'm feeling that sort of resolve and closure that you're describing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. And so to your point that you started with, which is they really have to crush in the finale. I'm feeling really unsatisfied with Rick. There is a possibility that something happens in the finale where I'm like, wow, this is. This feels great.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Whatever. You know, I. I was wrong to judge it at 7. I should have waited for 8 to sort of see where it was all going. I want to go back to something that you mentioned. I mean, let's. Let's talk about Belinda. Why not? This was an episode of a lot of transactional conversations. Right? We're trading. We're Greg, Greg, Greg, Gary, Belinda Talk about money or Alexi and Lori talking about money.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, they sure are.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're talking about exchange of knowledge. If we're Chelsea and Saxon, there's a lot of sort of. And this always happens towards the end of a White Lotus episode. Is someone asking for money or someone trying to buy something. This is like a. A very common. This is what it's all about sort of White Lotus thing. We got a really interesting email from our listener, Jessica. I said this before, but something that I love about doing this podcast with you, Rob, is the number of, like, unexpected experts that will weigh in. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jessica is a trained Muay Thai fighter.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's fucking go. First of all, great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible, Fantastic. So she wrote. I just heard a different podcast reference. The beginning scenes of the Muay Thai fight as a prayer. It's called a Y Crew Rem Moy. It is usually shortened to Y Crew. It serves to pay respect to your teacher. Slash, coach. Can be a protecting measure, can be used to intimidate your opponent and also helps prepare the body for the fight. It's usually done after you walk the ring counterclockwise to seal the ring. It's interesting to intercut that with the scenes of people squaring up with their own personal opponents because they're doing all those things but paying respect. So this idea of sort of these confrontations coming to a head. What do I want from you? What does Greg, Gary want from Belinda to pay her off and shut her up? What does he want from Saxon? Yeah, a kinky little sex arrangement.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, maybe I don't know how to read that one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Admittedly, John, I will say that John Grace on the official podcast says that he does believe that that is great. Gary's kink. So that is true.

[Rob Mahoney]

I believe that the kink is real.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the motivations for prompting the kink and the ask to me felt more like I need to give Chloe something to do so I can take care of this Belinda business and so we can have a pretense for having this party that is not, let me cover up a murder.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. I don't, I don't. I don't mind that. I do. Yeah. I want to get back to that. Okay, let's, let's, let's talk about, first of all, anything, any thoughts about Jessica, our trade fighter and her email. And then secondly, oh, what do you want to say about the Belinda negotiating dollar price tag conversation that Bill and Mallory and I had?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do love the context of that sort of introduction to the Muay Thai fight, which is an interstitial, like, through line, through at least the first half of the half of the episode. And I think is sort of underlining this confrontation we have, not just in terms of all these transactions and people trying to get people on their side, bribe them, enlighten them, et cetera, but this, like, very human paradox that is at this season of White Lotus in this episode, in particular of spirituality and violence and the way that they interact and the way that they coexist, including in setting the stage for a fight like this. There's a lot of characters who are trying to figure out where they stand and what violent acts they're willing to participate in or not, or in some ways enacting their own kinds of violence. But I think for where we are right now, I like that sort of stage setting, finale wise. The transactional nature of this episode I find a little less interesting. I find those elements to be a little more. Okay, let me give you this bit of exposition. So then we know what's happening in the finale so that we kind of move the links of the chain of the plot along a little bit. And no more am I disappointed in that than Zion's arrival on the show, who's a character. We open the show with him, right. Like this idea of him in peril, him trying to navigate this crazy situation with all this gunfire, crawling through the water. It's a really evocative thing. He shows up on the show and his main role, it feels like, is to be one a character that we plausibly believe actually has Belinda's best interest at heart. Okay. And then also just to kind of like push back on her paranoias and fears. Like, he's basically like a wall that she's arguing with versus an actual character.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not paranoia if it's real.

[Rob Mahoney]

Less paranoia. But I think she has very well founded fears and she's trying to navigate them. And he's a counterpoint for a lot of that fear. And trying to say, actually, let me meet your fear with a certain kind of practicality. Like, if you don't go to this dinner party, he's just going to keep trying to approach you. If you don't take this money, he's just going to come after you with violence and say, I understand the need for that kind of theoretical framework, but to get it from a character we don't know and don't have any relationship to and have barely seen on screen and took like five episodes to show up, that feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything you want to say about Belinda negotiating?

[Rob Mahoney]

Mallory's ambitious.

[Joanna Robinson]

What did she say? Cool mill.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think her. I think her opening was don't settle for anything less than a million dollars. Which sounds to me in this situation with. And look, I would not prop myself self up as a successful negotiator. That sounds like a good way to get killed, in my opinion.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you think about what Bill? I think Bill and I were saying like 500. 500,000.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, this is where I'm especially not a good negotiator. I try to wiggle up from 100 a little bit, but I don't even know if I'd make it to 5. I'm being honest with you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. All right. On the. On the official podcast, they made the great point where they're like, why not just take that money? However much is offering and then turn him over anyway. Like how the money.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's. Then he's just going to say that he gave you the money and then you are accessory to murder.

[Joanna Robinson]

I guess it depends how the money is traced to you. I suppose that's true. Fair enough.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, you need it. We need a duffel bag.

[Joanna Robinson]

We do our. An offshore account or something. In addition to this transactional stuff. Wrapped up in the transactional confrontational penultimate episode. There's like a. There's a lot of tests for characters. Rick is tested on whether or not he's going to do a murder. Frank is tested on his sobriety. Chelsea is tested on whether or not she's going to a Schwarzenegger. Like, there's just a lot of tests being put forward. And Piper is tested about whether or not she can spend the night. One single solitary night.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Monastery with a leaky faucet. Can you imagine a drip? Rob, you were the one who was worried about a sort of sibling sexual assignation at the monastery. How did you feel when Piper sat down on Lachlan's bed in her. In her night. In her nightie, where you scared.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was very scared. Shirtless. Lachlan is an intimidating thing at this point in the season. Very relieved that the story did not exactly turn that way. And I think it did turn in a way that I do find interesting. This idea of Piper as a figure who thought she wanted one thing and is forced to confront the fact that if she actually wanted to go to the monastery for the purposes of self improvement, she would probably have no reason to object to Lachlan also wanting to do the same thing. And in fact, might even be supportive of it because it would be on the same grounds that are leading her there. The fact that she pushes back and it's just like a strong, like, visceral reaction to the idea of her brother stealing her thing, I think tells us a lot. I think we'll see if it tells Piper a lot about herself. That's the big question mark for me.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's interesting on this sort of like. I think that's a great take. I think what you're saying and what Mallory's saying makes a lot of sense to me. I was like, confused when I was watching it, but now I think I'm much clearer on it. And I think that on the transactional front. Have you. Have you clicked into max.comhbo, max.com whatever the URL is for?

[Rob Mahoney]

I've been involved. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you gotten the pot? The white Lotus pop up. That is that they're currently serving.

[Rob Mahoney]

No. What are they serving?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, welcome to Zazlav's America where you know, of course we here on the Prestige are, are supporting coffee White Lotus brand as a coffee mate. And also there's a pop up ad that says the White Lotus who will be forever changed is a pop up poll. The White Lotus will be forever changed by their unhinged Thailand trip. Your prediction will inspire your next watch and don't miss a season finale. Blah, blah. So you can pick the rat lifts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rick and Chelsea, Jack, Lori and Kate or Belinda and Zion. You've got four, four picks here, right? Four groups.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can I add a fifth one to the poll?

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jason Isaacs himself, who in interviews has been talking about how the experience of making the show was a harrowing interpersonal experience in which there was apparently much drama. And I would love to hear about it, but I suspect we will not there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really. I mean, I've heard that from a lot of people that there was like a ton of conflict and drama and then yet also they're all posting these very like chummy photos on their Instagram from behind the scenes.

[Rob Mahoney]

So his, his posting style of as an actual dad of these people is just delightful.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really enjoyed it being the Jason Isaacs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, see, I haven't been up on this. I haven't been up on his social media presence.

[Joanna Robinson]

He and Tom Felton who played Draco Malfoy, like call each other dad and son and have done since they made Harry Potter and they're just like constantly on each other's Instagram just being fucking adorable.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just so sweet for a bunch of murderous fascists, you know, Isn't it nice?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so to go back to this pop up, if you click on any of these options, Max will then tell you what you should watch based on what you clicked, what you should watch.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

I like this based on what you clicked.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So if you click on Rick and Chelsea, which is of course my first click, they're like, we hear you. Like Walton Goggins. Have you tried Righteous gemstones?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. You click on the rat lifts. They're like Patrick Schwarzenegger family rich family, Carolinian murder the Staircase.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

We think you'll enjoy it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Uh, Belinda and Zion, they're. I, I don't. The, the connection is very loose, but they're basically like, hey, Mike White made another show for us. It's called Enlightened. We think you might like it. So that's the Belinda and Zion option.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, what that makes me think is that maybe Belinda will not take the money like in enlightened a show among other things about like a kind of whistleblowing and a kind of like pursuit of a sort of justice within the context of also channeling your own self improvement. Maybe that is the Belinda story.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love this. Rob is finding spoilers inside of. I'm trying any con inside of hbo. Max. Last but not least, and this just really cracked me up. Jacqueline, Laurie and Kate the fancies. Click on that. The pop up says we hear you like older fashioned women. Would you like to watch? And just like that, the Sex in the City sequel series.

[Rob Mahoney]

You couldn't even point him to the original. It's got, it's got to be the new content.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean the ladies are just not old enough in the original I guess anyway, so that is, that is. Sorry, I guess I'm doing HBO's advertising work for them, but I just thought that was really funny. Okay. Yesterday our pal, our colleague Jo me filled me in on the Duke shirt controversy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, do you want to let listeners at home who were as sheltered as I was from this know what the Duke shirt controversy is around White Lotus.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's just say an institution as Pearl clutchy as Duke does not appreciate when you put someone on screen holding a gun to their head wearing a very prominently featured Duke T shirt and have issued a sternly worded statement how they condemn the images on the show, how they are so serious about, you know, the prevention of self harm in the world and that their brain could not possibly be associated with such a thing. It's just a preposterous situation all around Joe, for a guy wearing a T shirt of his, his alma mater.

[Joanna Robinson]

And they're also, I mean, you know, they're admonishing the show, but also engaging directly in what we were talking about earlier in terms of like this being a March Madness meme. Oh yeah, they're like, we understand that March Madness can get competitive, but come on guys, don't use this meme. Okay, so I bring that up because we had an email from our listener Robert who said. And then I had to go back and re watch the scene. Do you think they edited the Duke shirt out of the dream sequence? In episode 7 I noticed Tim had a white shirt and not his Duke shirt on like in episode six. So if you go back to the end of episode seven when Tim is once more in his family Annihilator era, he's wearing the Duke shirt as he's thinking about it. But when we get to the part where he actually has the gun, he is wearing this sort of like white, almost like pinkish. Like a white washed with some reds. Pinkish white undershirts. And I was looking, I was like, could they have gone in and sort of digitally altered? And I'm like, easily. They could have.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

We've never seen a T shirt on him as far as I can tell. So just something to think about in our. In our creepy little CGI AI Era. What you can change with a click of a. Of a mouse.

[Rob Mahoney]

They can take that scene from us, Joe, but they can't take the memes. No, they'll have to rip them out of our cold, dead, keyboarding hands, and they.

[Joanna Robinson]

They shall not have it. Okay, last but not least, sort of. Before we get into the. The main. Just one last sort of email roundup thing. I want to say that our listener, Morgan, which is my sister's name, but no relation, wrote in an interesting sort of Emmy chicken, which I know is not like necessarily why people listen to this podcast, but we have been talking about it a lot throughout the season of sort of the Emmy likelihood of various actors. And I think we sort of just been using it as a way of like to say, whose performance are we enjoying?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

What character do we think is being, you know, given the most centralized treatment?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think also too not enjoying, but enjoying for sure. But in addition to that, whose performance is gonna kind of stand the test of time as far as what we remember from the season? Who feels like a signature feature of season three of White Lotus?

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think, I think it's interesting to think about because, like, given that I just went through this sort of like HBO Max pop up ad thing, the way that White Lotus hits those double quadrants of like, sort of shamelessly merchandised this season and also clear Emmy fodder is. Is one of its geniuses. I don't think there's another show out there that hits those two beats as well as it does. But Morgan pointed out that actually in the past we were talking about lead versus supporting. Morgan pointed out that White Lotus actors all go into the supporting category since this is an ensemble cast. So in the past, you know, Jennifer Coolidge won both of her. Both of her Emmys in the supporting category. Murray Bartlett won his in the supporting category. Nobody won for season two in the male supporting category because Matthew McFadden won for Succession, et cetera.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. And White Lotus does usually apply as a drama, correct?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. Yeah, it's a drama.

[Rob Mahoney]

You could see it and that makes it maybe harder for the Parker posies of this cast to, like, really filter through who are, I would say, mostly a comedic performance.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, you would think that. But Jennifer Coolidge is like, that's a great point. You know, uncut comedy. So I think that. And then the other element is we've been talking about whether or not Sam Rockwell belongs in the guest category of the supporting category. And I was sort of making those. He should be a guest. Guest actor based on the fact that I did not think that Frank was gonna linger as long as he has, I guess. But he. If he shows up even for a second in the finale, he will be over the threshold for guest actor and would have to show up in the supporting category. So this is you. If you're in 50% of the episodes of the season, you have to. You don't qualify for guest actor. So Morgan says, based on this, my predictions for nominations would be Isaacs, Goggins, Rockwell, and possibly Schwarzenegger. And male supporting Posey Wood, Rothwell, and potentially all three of the fancies in supporting, female. And White Lotus has run the board on this before, so, you know, it wouldn't be the first time. Uh, and she said, as good as Rockwell has been, it seems a little unfair if he won any over any of the core cast members. So I guess of all of those options, if you were. If you Rob Mahoney without having seen the benefit of seeing the finale, we're playing the role of the TV Academy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, boy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who do you give the Emmy to? Supporting.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel most compelled by the fancies.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think those are great performances. I think they're pretty well realized and sometimes infuriating characters. The trick with that might be how do you separate them? And do they. Do they sort of split the vote not only to kind of get on the ballot in the first place, but say, if two of the three are on, like, as finalists for supporting actress, like, who do you actually pick between them? I think. I think that would be excruciatingly hard and maybe would prevent them from actually winning. But if I were to pick one sort of standout part of the show, to me, it's still that excellent. I mean, how are you feeling about it, though, Joe? Like, who. Who would you say is. Is. Would you put forward to the Academy?

[Joanna Robinson]

I've been saying Isaac's all season, but to your point, I think I've finally reached my threshold of. He's been idling in the same gear for too many episodes. Like, I almost wonder if it would have been worth having Tim Ratliff in King of the Castle mode for two, three episodes. You know, like, you know, so that we. Then. In this descent, we're not lingering as long. In this one sort of descent mode. If. If we. And we also have a better sense of what we lost of him. As though we understand. Because he's an archetype, we understand who that person is. So I'm tempted to go Schwarzenegger, which, like, I just really never thought I would be here. But I. And I really want it to be someone like Goggins, but this is just not. He's not Gogginsing as hard as he can unless he does so in the finale. On the. You saying you're most sort of enchanted by the three fancies by the complicated nature of those characters?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wanted to pose a question that we got from our listener, Joanna. No relation to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you keep saying that. It just makes me more and more suspicious. The nepotism allegations and now the self question submitting allegations are gonna come in stronger than ever.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not me, but Joe. I'm just gonna sum up Joanna's email. And she basically said, can Chelsea and Mook beat the manic pixie dream girl allegations? Yeah, this is how I'm summing this up. Okay, so see, this is a question.

[Rob Mahoney]

From Joanna to Joanna because we need to talk about Chelsea and Rick and we need to have an honest dialogue about the nature of their relationship.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really understand this. I had a conversation with a friend of mine this morning because obviously, like, Mallory and I were disagreeing about this on Sunday, and I read this email where Joanna laid out the ways in which both Chelsea and Mook. I would say in this episode, Mook less so because Mook has, like, ambitions and desires that are. She might be looking for a dude to sort of, like, help her on her way there. Yes, but it's not about. She's not there to make guy talks life.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guy talk, in fact, might be bending himself or breaking his own personal beliefs to, you know, service her ambition, to service her wants and desires.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's an. That's an underdeveloped character in Mook. But I also think guy talk is a pretty underdeveloped character overall. It's just that she doesn't have a lot going for her other than, as you say, expressing what she wants, which is not personality, wise guy talk.

[Joanna Robinson]

She wants in a sort of Little Mermaid sense, more. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like sort of thing bits and bobs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who's this? And what's it, Gloria?

[Rob Mahoney]

Who's this and what's. Thank you. Who's. What's its glory? You know, I'm sorry. My apologies to Ariel down there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay? She accepts your apology. So, Chelsea, however, this is the allegation from the Joanna, who is not me, which is that every conversation we've had with Chelsea, almost every conversation has been about Rick, who's like her child, who she just wants to help. It's not good, Joe.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not what you want to hear.

[Joanna Robinson]

All this sort of stuff. And Mallory on Sunday was like, what the are we doing here? Essentially, And I was trying to talk to someone about this morning about. This is. This is. So. This is something I would so usually agree with Mallory, agree with this listener, Joanna, about who is not me, all this other stuff. And, like, why am I rooting for Rick and Chelsea? And my friend. My friend. Her summation was, you're just Goggins. Like, you. You can't help but root for Walton Goggins. You are conditioned to do so. This comes goes back to me rooting for, like, Boyd and Ava, even though I shouldn't be. You know, like, I just. I. It's in my bones to root for Walton Goggins. And so I'm rooting for Rick and Chelsea, even though. Yeah. I mean, this idea that Chelsea has no backstory. Mook and Chelsea have no backstory. That is largely true. Chelsea says stuff like, horrible things have happened to me. You don't see me complaining about it. I think she said that in episode five. I would like to know what those things are. What is Chelsea's story? How, like, she talks about meeting Rick and. And getting his whole life story. But what's the deal with Chelsea? Why is she the way she is? I do like that. The point that our listener was making inside of this email, this meta Pixie dream girl email, was just sort of like, if Rick's story goes away, Chelsea goes away. That's not true because she's also in Saxon story. But she's in Saxon's story.

[Rob Mahoney]

She sure is. Who would be there to pan back and forth between Chloe and Saxon as they talk about this elaborate sexual encounter that they're trying to arrange?

[Joanna Robinson]

If you're not watching this on video, you really miss Rob's excellent Amy Lou Wood impression of her. Sort of, like, wide eyes. But Chelsea, I would argue, is even more in the Manny Pixie dream girl role with Saxon, where she's like, here's some. Here are some books.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, like, educate yourself, be free.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you Want to listen to the Shins? Here, take my headphones.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, exactly. Do you want to talk all night and then drive and meet each other and watch the sunrise like. So, Rob, what do you got to say about Chelsea Mook? Manic pixie, dream girl? Any of this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say, for one, everything that we're saying about why Rick as a character and his place in the relationship with Chelsea doesn't work for us except for Walton Goggins may be an argument for what we were just talking about in terms of Goggins selling this thing above and beyond what's on the page. I don't think Rick is a particularly well realized character to this point in the story. And we're going to get into more of kind of the culmination, at least what feels like the culmination of his story to this point. But Goggins does sell it, and he is likable and he is someone who we want to see and kind of want to spend time with, even when he's a bit of a sourpuss. As far as this character goes, we have to give that to him. As far as that piece of this puzzle, I also, I want to push back a little bit on the idea of the backstory element with characters like Chelsea and Mook, because I agree, like, look, I would love to know what Chelsea's life is like. I think that would be a great bit of dialogue. I think that would be some great scenes, whatever you want to do with it. But this idea that you need backstory to build character, I just don't agree with fundamentally. And so this, I think you can very easily separate the lore of who we know these people to be with, what makes them interesting and evocative on screen and kind of like the personality and the agency that they show in their actions. And Chelsea, to me, her problem is less that we don't know her backstory and more that she's literally waiting for Rick to show up and calling him at every opportunity and is, like, is heartbroken by, overall, the fact that he won't return her messages and that he won't kind of meet her halfway and that her acknowledging this sort of like, pain and hope dynamic between them, but not acknowledging that that's a problem makes me really feel for that character, but it doesn't give that character a ton to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

In the meantime, I would love even an even stronger pushback from Chloe being like, what are we doing here, Chelsea? Why are you doing this? Yeah, that's a great point. You don't need to have a monologue about your origins and stuff like that, to be a compelling character. Who wants more? I would just love to hear what Chelsea talks about. Astrology, but in the context of Rick. Or Chelsea talks about this, that, and the traveling, but in the context of Rick. So what is, what is Chelsea outside of that context? Would have been a really fun thing to explore. But we only have one more episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I mean, as far as this season, dealing with identity, though, that is a salient point. Right. The fact that Chelsea only really identifies herself through Rick and who she is to him. And that's, I understand from a screenwriting like 10,000 Foot, like, this is a female character on television. Perspective problem.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But also, I think is showing what that character thinks of herself. And apparently it's quite little as far as her as a self determined, individual person.

[Joanna Robinson]

I hope that's true. I hope that that's something that. But like, it doesn't seem to me like the show is looking at Chelsea like through the lens of critique the way it's looking at someone like Saxon who says to his dad, I'm nothing if I'm not like your son. Everything I am is wrapped up in you. Like, the show is clearly showing us that being like, don't do that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

With Chelsea, like, I don't know that the show is seeing this as a toxic dynamic in any sort of way, but I mean, we'll see what happens in the finale.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I think what gives me hope on that is the stuff like her calling Rick her child and, and I think overall her talking about, like, he's just so sad and I need to make him better. Like that. That feels self aware to a point where I really do hope that we get some follow up on that.

[Joanna Robinson]

We shall see. I have not seen the finale, so I don't know. We'll all be watching it together live on Sunday. But Jim Hollinger, let's talk about the Goggins of it all.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we meet Scott Glenn as Jim Hollinger. Scott Glenn, an actor we love who's been in a million things, the leftovers, Urban cowboy, et cetera, et cetera. Jim Hollinger is old and frail. That's part of this. And there is a compelling story to be told of this, of this sort of like boogeyman you've built up in your head and you meet enemies just like an old frail dude and you're like, oh, no, I let this, this figure in my head dictate my actions for so long. And he's Just an old dude. Like, you're nothing. You're nobody. What the. So that's. Could be satisfying. There was just some sort of miss for me in this confrontation. Like. And in terms of. Again, they were talking about this in the official podcast. I thought this was an interesting take. If this is a test for Rick, if this is a. Can you find the path inside of yourself that does not involve you pulling the trigger on this guy? Can you free yourself from your identity of a wronged son who needs vengeance?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can you choose a life of peace and whatever and Chelsea, etc, etc, can you do that? Then? Wouldn't it be more compelling if Jim Hollinger were actually a juicier foe inside of that scene? If there were more of a temptation, you know, whereas just sort of like Jim Holland, it's like, go.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not much of a foe. Yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Give. Give us nothing. Which is what again? And that's not a Scott Glenn critique, because that's a. That's a great actor who we've liked in everything, without a doubt, Bad Monkey and Beyond. But, like, it's given nothing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Giving plus one is what it's giving. Like, he shows up, he sits there, he has the drink, he, I guess, cordons off with Rick here to have this conversation to ostensibly clear off her Sitala, to continue talking to a very fraudulent director whose, I would say, work in the scene is questionable to say the least. But, yeah, he doesn't have a lot to do. He doesn't have a lot to offer. And again, it's like, I understand from a storytelling perspective the merits of exactly what you laid out, Joe. Like the inherent way that we build up things that let us down in terms of the importance that they play in our life. And it makes sense that Rick would fall into that mold. But when you put it on screen, that is going to feel like anticlimax, because it is anticlimax. And so you have to find some other way to make it meaningful or some other way to make it resonant. And that's where I felt like this fell short. If. If we got this, the confrontation between Rick and Hollinger in the office, and it goes exactly the way it does, but the follow up on it was a little bit different. And some of the subsequent conversations between, you know, like Rockwell and Goggins, for example, play out a little differently. I think I could be sold on it. I think there's room there to kind of flesh out what that means other than sort of like, shrug, I guess I got closure. Let's Go to the strip club.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And maybe, like, an ambiguous smile. Like, I just. I needed a little more than that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Again, this is why I'm waiting for the finale. Like, it's possible that there's something in the finale that will make it all feel like a resolution that makes sense to me. What do you make of Mallory's question of whether or not this is going to follow Rick back to the White Lotus? Levy goes back to the White Lotus to meet up with Chelsea. Are the Hollinger bodyguards going to follow him there? You know, what's. What's the consequences? Or are we done with that storyline? He did it. He's done. You know, they left the house. They didn't really, like, hurt. They tipped over his chair. He's fine. Like, you know, I mean, he's frail. He just got out of the hospital, so maybe he's not, like, for sure, but, like.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it was a very, like, juvenile response. I don't even know what to do in this situation. I'm just going to push over your chair.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Do you think we see more of this in the. In the finale?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not usually this kind of person, but I think we kind of have to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, the logical jump of, you just had this whole, like, con executed against you for purposes that you don't fully understand, and this guy showed up and held a gun to your head, and you're just not going to follow up on that at all. And I say that not just in terms of following Rick back to the White Lotus and getting Chelsea involved and all those things, but they're just hanging out on the town in Bangkok after, like, speeding away by boat as quickly as they possibly could. I think you got to get out of town.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think you got to call Chelsea, say, pack the bags.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, we're out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Me in Bangkok. You know what I mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, yeah, yeah, bring her to Bangkok. That works, too. But you got to get out of.

[Joanna Robinson]

The White Lotus, the resort where you've, like, had a confrontation with the owner. I'm like, really? Okay, so this goes back to another main issue I have, and I did, like a lot of this episode. But here's my main disappointment. As you know, I love a con. I love. I love a heist, and I love a con.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Those are the two things. Whenever someone asks me about you, Joe, I say heists and cons. That's her area.

[Joanna Robinson]

It could be a blend of the two. Whatever you prefer. But the promise of Walton Goggins and Sam Rockwell as con artists in a White Guy con artists in Bangkok.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is so delicious to me. To watch this con be executed so shoddily was genuinely crushing to me. Is it, is it funny? To a certain degree. But I actually think there's a better chance for comedy in a, in a more competently done con than, than what we saw. So something that I texted you about this morning earlier was like, hey, can you be ready to talk about sort of your favorite con movies? Are you a con movie aficionado? What, what do you enjoy about them? Etc? So what do you want, where do you want to start? Rob, honey. And talking about con stories on. On film that you've enjoyed in the past?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna start obviously, and we're just going to get it out of the way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Vertigo, amazing con story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Rob Mahoney]

One has to be represented. I would say a non traditional con story overall in that you may not even see it coming. And it's so good. I am a little reluctant to spoil a 70 year old movie. That's how, that's how good. Vertigo is not just one of the best con movies, but I think does something that con movies rarely do, which is give you the okay, so what happens next, like after the big reveal, what happens to the core characters? What psychological state does it leave them in? It's not just a little coda where you see kind of the next six months of their lives or a little flash forward. I would say the meat. And ultimately what's so twisted and fucked up about Vertigo is so much of what happens next. And that's a part of that kind of story that I love seeing on screen.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's an excellent, truly excellent pick. And I think that like one of the joys of a con movie is when the con artist is conning themselves. Like when they, when they are fooling themselves about something and when we, the audience are being cons by what we're watching when we are.

[Rob Mahoney]

When there's not that way with disclaimers sometimes.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Sting.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Newman and Redford classic.

[Rob Mahoney]

But that's the sort of like cad dynamic that I think we're hoping for from something like this White Lotus pairing and just did not, did not quite get there.

[Joanna Robinson]

We love a cad. The thing about like Newman and like the thing about Rockwell and Goggins is like, yeah, this is a pairing that I would happily see across many different properties. They have that just that kind of vibe that works so well together. They're actual lifelong friends. So the same way in which we would happily see Newman and Redford in a number of, of stories together. I would happily see Goggins and Rockwell. I just need them to be more competent at their next criminal enterprise.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not only are they lifelong friends. Joe, someone emailed us earlier this season with a screenshot from the wonderful Walton Goggins Architectural Digest video. He takes you through his. His carefully constructed home. Yeah, well, I guess not carefully constructed because it's like a vintage property, including like a little like speakeasy room, basically, in which he asks all his friends to sign it. And there's a screenshot of Sam Rockwell's signature in the speakeasy room. So, I mean, clearly old pals. Clearly not. This is not the first time that they've been drinking buddies together.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you want to say next? Which other con movie?

[Rob Mahoney]

This is low hanging fruit, but Catch Me if youf Can, I think has to be represented in this conversation. I have seen it more times than I could actually count. It is among my most, like, YouTube revisited movies. In particular the scene in which Leo dupes his way out of a room with Tom Hanks by like throwing his wallet. You know, caught in the act, red handed and finds a way out of the room back to the car, manipulating a blind man in the process. But who's counting? I just think Leo is a perfect con man in many different movies, many different roles. Hanks, though, is just a perfect mark. And in particular in that movie, the idea that he's I would say, like more relentless than he is clever. He just like wants to keep running into the wall over and over. And every time he does, he's a little bit smarter and a little bit more plugged in on what's happening. But ultimately you need someone who's not so smart. They're going to solve the mystery in 30 minutes. But is so believable and I think ultimately so likable that you. You want to see them ultimately get through it. And so I just love that pairing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cash if youf can is one of my favorite movies of all time. I think it might be my. It's like my second favorite Spielberg movie, but it's right up there.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's amazing. I mean, it's a incredible movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think what I love most about the con aspect of that is like how much Frank Abagnale Jr. Is played by Leonardo DiCaprio, how much his own personal psychology, emotional damage, like all this sort of stuff is wrapped in like, why does the con artist Khan is like a. Is. Is a chief idea there. Tom Hanks as Frank Hanratty. Who is this, like America's dad Figure, sort of like chasing down this wayward boy. One of my favorite moments. I mean, you were forging documents. We're getting girls to play Pan Am, you know, flight attendants to sort of make our way to arts and crafts.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Catch Me if youf can are incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

My favorite, though, is the revelation when. When Hanratty's at the diner and his waiter's like. Like, oh, those are the names of the Flash. That's Barry. You know, Barry Allen. That's the Flash. And he's like, ah, he's giving me comic book names. The hell? So, yeah, great one. I will say that was on my list. I will say Also, the early 2000s, great time for Carnos movies. Sam Rockwell, Nicholas Cage, Alison Loman. Matchstick Men. Matchstick Men, a movie about con artists in which the con artists are, you know, again, I don't want to, like, ruin all the twists and turns of con artist movies, but are being conned where, once again, the emotional vulnerability of a con artist is wrapped up in why he and the audience are sucked into a story that they're being sold inside of that movie. I love that movie, Magic Men.

[Rob Mahoney]

So Magic Men is wonderful. And yeah, I think, again, what's so painful about the Rockwell Goggins pairing is we've seen Rockwell do it. We've seen Goggins do it. We know the juice that they have in these exact sorts of scenarios. And these dudes can't even be a single thing. They're just bumbling their way, not even leading the meeting, not even guiding the conversation. Just sort of like, along for the ride.

[Joanna Robinson]

One pre conversation about what the plan was. Not a single one.

[Rob Mahoney]

This guy doesn't even know what movies he directed. That is a problem.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was the only part that like. But the fake movie titles that he came up with were delightful.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, they're great.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was great. But the rest is just a mess.

[Rob Mahoney]

The jump from the executor to the notary, I just want to say, is a truly inspired bit of wordplay, and I appreciate it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. The Executor. The Executor and the Notary. Okay. Any other con movies you want to shout out?

[Rob Mahoney]

One that we have a mutual admiration for. Joe, and that's 2008, the Brothers Bloom.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's my number one.

[Rob Mahoney]

My number one as well. I think straight up, just one of my favorite movies of the 2000s as a decade.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct.

[Rob Mahoney]

Gorgeous, charming movie. It does two things that we've already kind of circled around. One of them that I really love about con movies. One is you gotta create the spiral of cons that is so dense and so expansive that we have no idea where the con ends and where the truth begins. And the way you do that is with what you were talking about in Matchstick Men, where it's like you're pitting con man against con man, and in this case, brother against brother. It's like, who would possibly know better to see through all the bullshit then the person who knows you maybe most intimately in the world knows all your tricks. And I think paying it off as emotionally as the Brothers Bloom does is really where it shines and really what makes that movie better than the sum of its parts. Like, it is not just a con movie, but it is a fucking great con movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Rian Johnson. This is Adrien Brody, Mark Ruffalo, Rachel Weisz, and Rinko Kikuchi. And a criminally underwatched movie.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's. It starts with, like Mark Ruffalo says a couple times, the day I con you is the day I die is like, one of my favorite lines from that movie. But also, it starts with this opening monologue, a rhyming opening for a love.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look, it was 2008, all right? This is a movie that came out of 2008. There are a lot of vests involved. Yes, it does.

[Joanna Robinson]

It can get.

[Rob Mahoney]

It can get quite twee at times.

[Joanna Robinson]

It is not untwee. It is.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, certainly not.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Ricky J's great opening rhyming monologue that he gives where he says, as far as con man stories go, I think I've heard them all of Grifters, Ropers, Pharaoh Fixers, Tales drawn long and tall. But if one bears a bookmark in the confidence man's tome, it would be that of Penelope and the Brothers Bloom, which doesn't rhyme with tone, but that's okay. Bloom, Grifters, Ropers, Pharaoh, fixers. We also. I just want to quickly shout out, and this is. This has gone along longer than I should have let it, but this is just, like, genuinely one of my favorite things to talk about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Disagree. Let's do another 40 on the brothers Bloom. We haven't even talked about Rachel Vice yet. Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

She skateboards, guys.

[Rob Mahoney]

She.

[Joanna Robinson]

She makes pinhole cameras. She's wonderful. The Grifters, obviously, a classic. And then the thing that started my love story with con movies, one of my favorite movies from my childhood, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with Michael Caine, Steve Martin, Glenn Headley. Just great shit. And again, there's just, like always, a turn inside of con movie where there's just like another con waiting for you around the corner. I know this is not a con show. I'm just saying the opportunity was there and they just whiffed on it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, what if the ultimate con, Joe, is the con we perform on ourselves, the way in which we trick ourselves into believing we are something other than what we are?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true. A question a pal of mine asked me this morning is if I thought Frank's easy tumble from sobriety after this long monologue that we got in a previous episode, the. The his way through Thailand and then turning to Buddhism and sobriety and. And what that brought to him. She was asking me if I thought that was a commentary on the fragility of white Buddhism. Like tourist Buddhism. Like the fact that Frank was like, just so easily ready, like at the first sight of trouble, just ready to throw that out the window.

[Rob Mahoney]

And then I'm a little nervous in one meeting and now I need a whiskey.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then it's just like an orgiastic sort of descent into madness. Any. You know, I talked a little bit on. On Sunday's episode about this quote from Alan Watts that Rick gives to Jim when he talks about, you know, knowing when to stop this. And Alan Watts is this icon of white Buddhism in the San Francisco Bay area and in the world of white Buddhism in general. Any thoughts about, like, Frank in that vein or anything that they're trying to say about this idea of. In contrast to this monk who gives us. Drops even more sort of wisdom on us in this episode. Piper as sort of a white tourist Buddhist. Like any. Any of that inside of this season or this episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will first say invoking knowing when to stop in a show that has maybe gone on an episode or two too long is a little rich fair. That said, yeah, I do think it is a direct call out of that sort of like tourist spirituality. And I would say even more broadly than that, even take out, you know, the white or the American or the tourist element of that. Just sort of the fragility of this path to enlightenment overall, which is even if you enter into it with the best or most desperate of intentions, you are actually motivated by self improvement. You are actually trying to get into, you know, connection with a higher power, connection with a broader humanity, connection with whatever it is that is binding us all. Sometimes it is that fragile. And I think as. As we're kind of charting the courses of who is making dramatic progress in character over the course of like four days at a luxury resort like Saxon, case in point, this is a Long, Long, Long Road, my Friend, and a couple of books is a good starting point. A little flirtatious meditation. You do you. Ultimately, this is a hard, hard path to walk and one that requires an incredible amount of monastic responsibility and dedication. And so, yeah, I think anyone could fall off of that path. Anyone could fall out of that particular rhythm of life. But as we're trying to figure out who makes it out of this season of White Lotus in any way improved, I think the answer is any of them could fall off at any conceivable moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you make of Rick's smile at the end of this episode? What's your read on it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. And I'm more confused after reading what Walton Goggins thought of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tell me.

[Rob Mahoney]

So he did an interview with the Hollywood Reporter where he was talking about that scene and kind of the arc overall for Rick this season in a way that, frankly, makes me think that we have seen the bulk of what Rick is going to go through. The fact that this interview is coming out, this is his quote. It took me six months and seven hours of this experience to smile, to really smile. It's not joy, but there's contentment or peace. For a moment, I get that he's talking about, like, the production of the show, right? And this is a character who has been quite dour.

[Joanna Robinson]

He talked about how hard it was for him as an actor. He would just, like, separate himself from the cast and go just like, brood and smoke and stuff like that. Like. Well, actually, I don't know if he smokes. I think he does anyway, brood and just sort of stare off in the distance and not talk to anyone.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, yeah, this is a man, as an actor, who is the life of the party and has the biggest, toothiest grin in the world. And to deprive us of that is a crime in and of itself. But to decrime Goggins himself of that sort of the joviality that is such a key part of his performance, I think is a great challenge for him as an actor. And I get why he wanted to try that and why he's playing the part that way, and ultimately why Rick is kind of constructed and rounded out the way he is. But to say that this is a man who found, like, a level of contentment or peace, I wouldn't say that was my read on the scene. Overall, I think there was a relief in I have done the thing I wanted to do, which is confront Jim Hollinger. It didn't go the way I thought. But ultimately, I think what Rick needed, whether he was aware of it or not, was not to shoot Jim Hollinger, not to threaten him, not to hold a gun to his head, not to exact some kind of, like, revenge in a very traditional sense. But, like, this is a dude who needed to be heard and needed. This guy, needed to leave a mark on this man in the way that he thinks he left one on him. So there's a relief in that. But to say that Rick, in this moment, has found, like, contentment or peace, I just don't see the arc that is leading us there.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree with Goggins, but I have a caveat. To me, Rick did look at peace in that scene. It was just sort of like there's this party going on around him, and he's like, I don't need any. I mean, he's had. And I talked to Bill and Mallory about this. They kind of disagree with me. But, like, he's had some drinks, but he's not, like, smoking meth or whatever it is that, you know, and. And, like, the girls are offering him hard drugs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that a meth party? That doesn't look like a meth party.

[Joanna Robinson]

What was the pipe that. That Frank was smoking from?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I have no idea what they were smoking.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think meth pipe party. But, like, he was smoking.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Meth seems like a different vibe than what they're trying to cultivate.

[Joanna Robinson]

Crack. I mean, I don't know what it was, but it wasn't. It wasn't a standard. I don't know what a standard drug.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come to the Prestige TV podcast for all of your recreational drug tips. We. We've got you.

[Joanna Robinson]

We've got you covered for sure. But I think. I think he was just like, I don't need any of this. This is not something I need or want. I am content. I've put that to bed, and I'm content to just go back to Chelsea and live happily ever after. Now, again, that might be me projecting a happy ending.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the thing that I'm worried about. Can you read what he said about peace for a moment? What did he say?

[Rob Mahoney]

He said, it's not joy, but there's contentment or peace for a moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

For a moment. Makes me worried about Rick in the finale.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

I hadn't. I hadn't seen that quote. That makes me worried. Okay, cool, cool, cool. All right. In terms of worry for the finale, let's talk about guy talk for a second. And this is something that we've been wondering about. All season, which is. Is Guy Talk who has been urged by Mook from the beginning of the season to sort of man up, be. Be a bigger, bolder you. The gun was introduced.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not even be a bigger boulder you be someone else.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Don't be you. You is not who I want. I want something else. Okay. Straight up, our listener who signed their email gch said, don't forget Guy Talk was an unbelievable shooter. When they were in the went to the range with his boss. He even complimented him. And Abby says, poor Guy Talk is just a gentle soul who can't stomach violence of any kind. And Mook for some reason, is trying to turn him into someone he isn't. There's scene where he expresses aversion to violence. She said, I thought you were more ambitious than that. Was frankly disturbing and manipulative and I'm worried for him. Okay, so I don't know about manipulative, but definitely disturbing and definitely. I, I just wanted to get your take on this. This to me feels like a real flip on your early season read where you were like, poor Mook is being pursued by this quote, capital N, capital G, Nice guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she just wants to be left alone. And I, I understood where you were coming from because that is definitely an archetype that I always like us to be on the lookout for. But the end of the season, here we are and we're like, poor Guy Talk. Don't like, like let Moot go. Like love and respect to her. Let her want what she wants. That's fine. What she wants isn't you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't change who you are inherently. A friend of mine was texting me after the, after this week's episode and she was like, I love Guy Talk as this sort of counter depiction of masculinity, that masculinity can do all kinds of different things. And for Guy Talk, it's this pacifist, gentle sort of thing. And she's like, I like that in the context of all the archetypes that we're talking about here. And I was like, yeah, but I'm worried.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Then the finale, he's going to betray that. For in pursuit of this thing that he wants, which is the, the beautiful, lovely, beguiling Mook, like who, who can blame him? But that's crushing. If he is involved in the shootout at the end of the season, it will be a massive betrayal of his, like, most closely held core principle. And so do do you want. And we talked about this a little bit on Sunday, but like, do you want a finale where Guy Talk does shoot, does do the thing that Mook thinks that he should do that is natural to do. Do you want a finale where Guy Talk ops out of the shootout and chooses his own core principles over Mook's expectations of him? What seems most interesting to you, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Would prefer for that character for him not to shoot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That said, he is going to shoot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like it is. It is going to be one of the tension points of the finale. I would say, in part because Guy Talk and Mook's story can't go anywhere else. This is the only direction that their relationship has been going and that their scenes and dialogue together have been going. And so this character who is constitutionally opposed to violence and spiritually opposed to violence, it's not him and it's not the person he wants to be in the context of a broader world, is going to participate in something that by experience earlier in this season, he has been taught he's quite good at. And that makes me incredibly nervous. I think the foreboding part and the sort of like the lead in of Guy Talk going to the gun range and being exceptionally accurate his first time out is not that he's gonna shoot someone correctly in the finale. It's that he's going to go in with the confidence of somebody who shot really well at the gun range in a live non target practice situation in which monkeys may be involved. And from there, who knows what could happen. Like, I do think Guy Talk is a person pulling the trigger. Are there more guns involved? Are there more victims invol? I don't exactly know, but I think he's. Shots are going to be fired and Guy Talk is going to be pulling the trigger.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our listener Joe asked, any chance the gunshots are a red herring, meaning, yes, there will be a shootout, but any chance that the body that's floating in the water has nothing to do with the bullets flying at the end of the season?

[Rob Mahoney]

What if they're just watching the notary really, really loud? Someone just. Someone cranked up the subwoofer and you know, they're just watching some great action set pieces. You know, Statham went off in that thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

It sounded more like the executor to me than it did the notary. Just. Just by listening, but sure, that's really funny. Okay, I have one more sort of question I want to ask you before I do that. I realized that I didn't have on my list to talk to you about anything to do with Laurie. This is a huge Laurie Episode Carrie Coon episode talking about con men. Alexi, I think, did a little bit of a better job, actually than Frank and Rick, but just, like, really fumbled it at the end. Did not do his due diligent research on Lori to know whether or not she was the fancy that he should be pursuing. If. If he had this dollar amount in mind.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was told, like, straight up at the pool that she's this hotshot lawyer, that she's playing payimony. Right. Like she's got some money.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

In fact, probably enough, if she needed to, to move around. Exactly. $10,000 in US cash if she wanted to. She probably could for this guy she just met and had sex with one time and his poor, poor, probably fictional mother. At least for her probably fictional problems.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. You shouldn't do that. Clearly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right, of course. Anything else you want to say about Laurie or her escape or the as expected pile of jewelry from the boutique smash and grab or anything else?

[Rob Mahoney]

I share Mallory's opinion that we didn't need the flashbacks regarding guy talk or Laurie and the robbery. And I feel often just kind of insulted when we do get those things, so. Trust us, it's only been a couple episodes. We can remember it. It's fine. Overall, with Laurie's story, I think the stuff with her at the fight while fun and lively. And overall, her relationship with Alexia, I enjoyed those scenes. To me, it's so much more about still her. With Jacqueline and Kate and their twisting dynamic at dinner together. A couple of bottles of rose and who knows how many at that time, like, they're. They're pouring them fast. It's just a wonder to me that these three people, despite how much they had in common growing up, as far as, like, geographically, demographically, coming from such similar places, have so, so, so little in common as far as, like, who they are as people.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think there's a possibility for Jacqueline and Laurie to bond over sexual mistakes they've made with a Russian on this trip?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what? After. I was just saying they don't have a lot in common. They certainly do have a lot in common. If Valentin asks for exactly $10,000 in US cash, then. Then they have something to come together.

[Joanna Robinson]

If Lori's like, Jacqueline, I'm sorry I judge you so, so harshly. I mean, she should judge Jacqueline for plenty of things. I'm not defending Jacqueline. Jacqueline sucks. But if she's like, you know, I made a big fucking mistake with Lexi, you made a big fucking mistake with Valentin. Like, let's just call it a day. And. And move on from here. Do you think that's a possibility for them?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the difference is, like, who was the mistake at the expense of. And Jack, look, Jacqueline's mistake. She's. She's a married woman. Doesn't seem like that was exactly in. In the rules in the term agreement as far as, like her sleeping with random Russians on vacation. She keeps it a secret for a reason. Right. Like she is embarrassed of this idea and does not want to tell the other women about it. And the fact that she is hiding it tells you that she knows on some level that what she did is messed up. Laurie is trying to have a good time, and I think has a good time in a largely college debaucherous kind of way, gets involved with a man she probably should not have gotten involved in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who is she really hurting? Except for his girlfriend, I guess, but.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I would say she gets more hurt than the girlfriend does. If we're talking about characters who chose violence in this episode, Alexi's girlfriend just wailing on.

[Joanna Robinson]

People support it. I support it. Yeah. I don't. Yeah, absolutely true. It's not the same. What they've done is not the same. And Jacqueline, certainly. I really. If there's going to be any kind of reconciliation, I need Jacqueline to acknowledge what she did at Laurie's expense.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And White Lotus is not a show that necessarily has characters like this have any kind of self awareness. So, you know, I'm not. I'm not saying I'm holding my breath for it.

[Rob Mahoney]

The only reason I might be a little bit is that as of now, episode seven, Jacquelyn is so unlikable in this episode. And they have loved to do the Revolving Door, or I guess more of a conveyor belt in terms of who is kind of front and center, who is getting put on blast between these three women, who is sort of the target of the other two. We haven't really seen anyone be the sustained source of ire. And I think Jacqueline will have some moment in the finale that endears us to her a little bit more. Maybe it's a reconciliation, maybe it's something else. But ultimately there's this fundamental tension between her and Laurie that I don't think a lot of conversation can fix, which is Laurie is. Even by her friend's diagnosis, which I think is largely correct. A like, go with the flow type. I don't think she's playing the victim or like, has an endemic kind of worry as a result of that. I think maybe they're a little bit harsh in their characterization of Laurie's life. But it's clear that she has not seized the reins and the control of everything in her life to a degree that she could have.

[Joanna Robinson]

I might agree with you. Except I think what's interesting, in an interview that Carrie Coon gave to Vanity Fair, she was sort of talking about this as maybe an eye opening experience for Laurie of like, hey, maybe I do make self destructive decisions. Do you know? But see, that's the thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think they're self destructive decisions. I think they're like non decisions that end up in damage.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, it's. It's not that she is going down the wrong road. It's that someone says, hey, do you want to go down this way? And she just kind of shrugs and goes along with it. And then now, 15 years later, she's divorced.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something I like about this podcast, Rob, is that we listen and we don't judge. We support people.

[Rob Mahoney]

Except Jacqueline sometimes. Like, it's. It's again, hard not to judge Jacqueline in this episode, I would say, especially because I don't know whether this is a me thing or a show thing, but I do feel a little more sympathetic to Laurie's perspective. I do feel, I do feel more sympathetic not just to what has happened to her at the White Lotus, but kind of who that person is and the decisions that they make.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of course.

[Rob Mahoney]

Whereas Jacquelyn is the kind of person who sees like, she's so assertive in a way that probably was key to her becoming a success, a successful actress in the first place, but also leads her to see, like every. Every bit of empty space is an opportunity, including getting in with Valentin when the time serves.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think the thing that's true of us as, and we're not, you and I are not a monolith. We see things differently. But like, as TV viewers or as consumers of story, it's most interesting to us when characters show some sort of vulnerability. So when did Saxon become an interesting character? To me, when he became a more vulnerable character. When he also.

[Rob Mahoney]

When he became more Chelsea's type, If we're gonna be honest about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, well, but like, that goes hand in hand when he starts to grow a little baby soul inside of him, when he has some vulnerability, when he has some introspection, when he has some self reflection.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jacqueline right now is doubling down on no introspective and no introspection, no self reflection. There is this like, I really hated her whole, like, people whisper about me wherever I go. I really didn't need it for my friends. Like, that's not true. Vulnerability. And I'll just. I'll be the bad guys. I'm used to it. That's not actual self reflection and vulnerability. But she. There is potential for her to have that in the finale, and if she does, I would like to see that from her right now. She sucks and I don't like her. And with love and respect to Michelle Monahan. Okay, last but not least, if there's.

[Rob Mahoney]

A way back for Saxon, there's a way back for Jacqueline, is what I'm saying. And also, Joanna, who would you be if not someone who is endeared to a previously irredeemable character with a baby soul growing inside them? This is. This is your zone.

[Joanna Robinson]

It really is. Okay. That's true. Wow. Right. Right down the middle. Okay. Amber wrote in to say we've gotten version of this email throughout the season, but this is the first time I'm taking it seriously.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

With love and respect to all the other versions we've gotten. Amber says, I'm a lawyer slash legal journalist, and I couldn't stop thinking about the legal doctrine that you've probably heard of, the fruit of the poisonous tree. Basically, it is the one where if you obtain evidence illegally, anything that you discover that comes from that first illegal act is tainted and can't be used in court. So we've been getting emails about this all season when we're like, hey, there's a literal fruit of the poisonous tree at the Ratliff compound. And people are like, have you heard of this doctrine? But I don't, and forgive me if I missed it, but I don't think in previous emails they made such a connection between that to this idea of Tim Ratliff getting off scot free. So this idea, it's not just like fruit of the poisonous tree for fruit of the poisonous tree sake, it's fruit of the poisonous tree. This idea that if you obtain evidence illegally, anything you discover that comes from that first illegal act is tainted and can't be used in court. If that is what gets Tim Ratliff out of the absolute morass that he has found himself in, if he gets his phone back and is like, oh, hey, the first. The first step they took in this investigation was illegal. So the whole thing is tossed out. Then you get to go home and you don't need to tell anyone that you dreamt about murdering your family for a couple days in Thailand. Nobody ever needs to know that. Tim. Again, I. I said this on the Sunday Pot. But it really does feel to me like Tim Ratliff is the kind of character for whom there will be no actual consequences if he manages to just not murder anyone between now and the boat ride home.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you think he's capable of that? Well, he doesn't have the gun anymore, so that helps.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like he's not going to jail. I feel like that's true.

[Rob Mahoney]

So yeah, I, I do, I do agree with you. It does feel like that might be where we've, where we're headed. I do wonder how that's going to leave people watching this show. If the summation of Tim Ratliff's story all season is nothing. Right. It is self perpetuating anxiety and a drug addled stupor for seven straight episodes leading in nothing. I think that's a fair part of an ensemble story. But it's an ensemble story that we have dedicated quite a bit of time to. This is not just like a running background thread. This is a key element that many other characters are hinging on.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a great point. Will anyone be satisfied with the White Lotus finale?

[Rob Mahoney]

Tune in and find out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tune in and find out. All right, so we'll be back on Monday next week to talk about White Lotus episode eight. I had a great.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have to say one more thing and it is a moment of very sincere thanks for something I have been clamoring for, begging for from the White Lotus this season. Guy talking mook.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you for giving us some street food. Thank you for taking us on a proper date. Like, why are you gonna take me to one of the great street food areas of the entire world? And look, it wasn't necessarily in Bangkok. I don't think they're in Bangkok. I don't know where they're on their date. But at least thank you for indulging me this little bit with some proper noodles. Like it was the least you could do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you love a noodle. Okay, thank. Thank you to White Lotus for making all of Rob's Anthony Bourdain dreams come true. We appreciate you as always. We'll be back for our episode 8. Like I said, we're recording on Monday, so you want to get those emails into monkeyshootout gmail.com. don't listen to anything Michelle Monahan says. Thanks to the whole crew on the episode today. We got CT here, Justin Sales, we've got Donnie Beachum on the edit. We are. We appreciate the whole team. My time in LA is wrapping up. I'm moving out of the void. Soon, but it's been a delight. How do I feel about Leaving the Void?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, specifically leaving the Void.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm overjoyed. I, you know, love podcasting with you in person, Rob, but doing it over zoom from a weird little black box is. Is its own. Its own little experiment. No, but it's. It's. It's been really fun to be in la, actually. It's been really, really fun. And I will. We'll see you guys later for the pit. Okay. That's how this episode ends. Bye. It.