‘Widow’s Bay’ Episodes 4-5: The Witching Hour

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast

Episode: ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episodes 4-5: The Witching Hour
Date: May 20, 2026
Hosts: Jordan Robinson & Rob Mahoney

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Episode Overview

Jordan Robinson and Rob Mahoney dive deep into Episodes 4 (“Beach Reads”) and 5 (“What to Expect on Your Trip”) of Widow’s Bay, celebrating the series’ masterful blend of horror tropes, character development, and mythological storytelling. They unpack the show’s standout creative choices, answer mailbag questions, and highlight how Widow’s Bay leverages communal anxieties and personal fears through genre storytelling—particularly witchcraft and loss of control. This episode is rich with analysis, horror history, and shout-outs to standout cast and crew moments, making it essential listening for fans of the series and anyone interested in the anatomy of prestige TV horror.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Episode 4 “Beach Reads” – The Witching Hour

Writer/Director Shout-outs

• Written by Mackenzie Dore (WandaVision alum); directed by Sam Donovan (of Severance)
• Hosts are thrilled by the infusion of horror and comedic elements from these creators

Patricia’s Party: Loneliness, Fear & Witch Tropes

• Central theme: Patricia’s deepest fear isn’t death but “dying and no one caring about it.” (13:08)
  • Quote, Katie Dippold via Jordan: “The thing that is scarier to her than the idea of dying is the idea of dying and no one caring about it. ... Even though the book is scary, there’s nothing scarier to Patricia than no one coming to her thing.” (12:51)
• The writers’ room structure each episode on a character’s unique fear using horror archetypes (e.g., “Jaws episode,” “Shining episode,” “drug trip episode”).
• Community and exclusion, expressed through Patricia’s attempts to connect and the mean-girl clique led by Chris.
  • Quote, Rob (15:02): “The wardrobe has hints of Carrie prom queen. She’s dressed throughout like Shelley Duvall in The Shining.”

Witchcraft Symbolism & Horror Homages

• Running motif of teeth in witchcraft and controlling spells (30:54)
• Mythological references: dragon’s teeth—sowing discord, warriors springing from the ground (31:23)
• Rich horror nods: Carrie, The Blair Witch Project, Yellowjackets, Wicker Man, True Detective, The Fog, Halloween (with “the night he came” tagline reference—20:25)

Best Scene/Visual Reveal

• Patricia’s spell goes awry: the haunting reveal in the bar, with guests mindless, animal remains in drinks, and Bashir’s delivery—“What the fuck are you doing?” (33:49).

2. Episode 5 “What to Expect on Your Trip” – Loss of Control & Drug Trip Tropes

Writer/Director Notes

• Written by Colton Dunn (Garrett on Superstore); directed by Andrew DeYoung, known for nuanced, trippy comedic work.

Tom’s Struggle with Control & Family Trauma

• Tom’s drug trip (courtesy of Todd O’Connor, local “shaman”) is a vessel for exploring his deepest fears—primarily, the lack of control over his son Evan’s safety and destiny.
  • Quote, Jordan: “Introducing Evan as a very humanizing thing for Tom... He cares so deeply about his son and is so protective.” (10:14)
• Flashbacks/memories: Tom’s pregnant wife’s medical emergency on the ferry (7:48) and ambiguous fate—mythos of the island (if you’re born there, you must remain there) deepened.
• Email theories float that the pregnant wife motif might be more central than “dead wife” clichés (6:28).

Classic Drug Trip Episodes & Visual Flair

• Hosts compile favorite “drug trip” episodes for comparison: Mad Men’s “The Crash,” Six Feet Under, BoJack Horseman, Avatar: The Last Airbender (“cactus juice”), Roseanne, Freaks & Geeks (43:02–45:07).
• Praise for unique visual & editing techniques:
  • Quote, Jordan: “The way the lights went down and came up to take you in and out of time was artistically really interesting.” (46:23)
• Comic highlight: Chris Fleming as Todd O’Connor (“shaman” with an iguana named Wanda); injects a quirky, out-of-town energy distinct from other characters (47:17).

Character Dynamics

• Tom’s strained relationship with Evan plays authentically—Evan’s rebellion, shame, and snark hit true-to-life father-son beats (51:19).
  • Quote, Rob: “He’s being like a real dick... but he knows enough to say, ‘hey, didn’t your friend just die?’” (51:19)
• Speculation abounds about the “off-Island girls” and their mysterious role—possible supernatural ties, maybe even the Sea Hag in disguise (69:50).

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Mailbag Highlights & Listener Theories

• Mint-chip ice cream: is it a pregnancy clue?
• “Dead wife” vs. “pregnant wife” show theories (6:24)
• Costume design praised: Patricia’s wardrobe invokes Shelley Duvall and Carrie (15:02)
• Horror references: Halloween tagline (“the night he came”), The Fog, Michael Myers’ “boogeyman” (20:25)
• Racial casting questions regarding Evan and potential show narrative implications (19:07)
• Ongoing debate: how many seasons should Widow’s Bay run? (21:03)
• Buffyverse Easter egg: Jerry’s actress was Pat on Buffy (“Dead Man’s Party”) (24:42)
• Listener “Babadooked-at-a-party” stories requested—embracing social awkwardness metaphors (17:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote / Moment | Attribution | | :---: | --- | --- | | 05:13 | “It is my fav. Episode of television this season. This. This year.” | Jordan Robinson | | 13:08 | “The thing that is scarier to her than the idea of dying is the idea of dying and no one caring about it.” | Katie Dippold (via Jordan) | | 15:02 | “[Patricia’s] wardrobe… has hints of Carrie prom queen. She’s dressed like Shelley Duvall in The Shining.” | Rob Mahoney | | 33:49 | The visual reveal of the spell’s aftermath, “What the fuck are you doing?” | Bashir (Kevin Carroll) | | 46:23 | “The way that the lights…went down and came up…. artistically, really interesting.” | Jordan Robinson | | 47:17 | “Chris Fleming as Todd O’Connor, shaman drug dealer—he’s so fun.” | Jordan Robinson | | 51:19 | “He’s being like a real dick… But he knows enough to say, like, ‘hey, didn’t your friend just die?’” | Rob Mahoney | | 58:05 | “Rhythm of the Night” needle-drop as incantation/dance party—“it does have a certain witchy power to it.” | Rob Mahoney | | 62:35 | “What is it that's so fundamentally creepy about people with their open maws?” | Rob Mahoney | | 64:05 | Lauren’s mute, vacant, possibly possessed state on Tom’s return—“the creepiest image the show has shown us so far.” | Rob Mahoney | | 68:34 | “We want those two crazy kids to work it out. Right, Evan.” | Jordan Robinson |

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Important Timestamps

• [03:32]: Creative team and tone for each episode
• [05:13-07:48]: High praise for Episode 4 and the “pregnant wife” theory
• [12:51-14:48]: Witch tropes, horror as emotional storytelling, community & loneliness
• [15:02-16:56]: Costume and set design as horror references
• [20:25-21:03]: Horror influences: The Fog, The Mist, Halloween tagline
• [30:54-32:39]: Witchcraft and teeth symbolism, Greek myth references
• [33:49-34:49]: Spell aftermath and practical magic confusion
• [35:00-36:00]: “Bottle episode” discussion—debunking the label
• [43:02-46:09]: Other TV trip episodes—drug episode trope analysis
• [47:17-48:42]: Chris Fleming’s Todd O’Connor; shaman culture
• [51:19-52:16]: Tom and Evan’s relationship; authentic teenage behavior
• [58:05-59:10]: Best comic/obvious jokes—“Rhythm of the Night,” “shoulders” in the drawing
• [62:35-65:24]: Most unsettling visual moments—open-mouthed, “body snatcher” references, magical object movement
• [64:05]: Scariest moment—Lauren’s vacant look post-childbirth
• [69:50-70:29]: Off-island girl/Supernatural theories

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Standout Easter Eggs & References

• Stephen King’s The Shining is hidden in the bookmobile (16:36)
• Carrie prom queen, The Shining wardrobe cues, Halloween tagline use
• “Babadook” tweet/internet meme—Patricia as party outcast (17:36)
• Body snatcher iconography and old-school horror body language (62:45)
• Buffy the Vampire Slayer—actor crossover reference: Jerry as “Pat” (24:42)

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Awards & Categories

• Best Lore Download: Sarah Westcott Warren’s creepy founding diary; “heartbeat cylinder”; mushroom “third eye” mythos (53:18)
• Favorite City Employee: Patricia; honorable mentions to Rosemary (scratchers!) and Dale (DJ, nightmarish visage) (53:34–56:16)
• Creepiest Haunt/Scare: Lauren’s mute state; Dale with “blacked out eyes”; open-mawed crowd (64:05, 56:15)
• Best Haunting Joke/Reference: “Rhythm of the Night” (58:05) and supernatural party scenes
• Favorite Throwaway Bit: Janitor’s “full belly” line to trash can; Dale’s zero RSVP delivery (59:22–59:56)
• Best Horror Movie Reference: Carrie and Shelley Duvall’s The Shining through Patricia’s look; boogeyman/Halloween lore
• Best Actor Moments: Matthew Rhys’ physical comedy on mushrooms (66:36)
• Rising Ship: Wick and Jer (“what’s old is new again!”) (67:27)

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Listener Participation Calls

• Share your “Babadooked-at-a-party” stories (18:39)
• Mailbag: Theories, costume/moment shout-outs, category suggestions

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Concluding Thoughts

Jordan and Rob emphasize how Widow’s Bay stands out for fusing horror homage with emotionally grounded character arcs, especially through its creative writers’ room. Episode 4 is celebrated as one of the best of the year—“a tonal tightrope, a masterclass in character” (05:40)—while Episode 5 rides the high of television’s best “trip” episodes. The hosts’ infectious enthusiasm, their insight into genre tropes, and thoughtful meta-commentary on TV storytelling make this a can’t-miss companion episode for Widow’s Bay fans.

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Note: Ad breaks, intros, and outros have been omitted. For the full immersive experience—including all jokes and horror references—listen starting at [01:17] and refer back to the above timestamps for favorite moments.

Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Jordan Robinson]

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[Jordan Robinson]

Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Jordan Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Jordan Robinson]

We're here. It's Widow's Bay Day, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean the hour is upon us.

[Jordan Robinson]

We're here to talk about episodes four and five. We're pretty, we're feeling pretty good about the way we're covering Widow's Bay. But if I have any regrets, it's that we didn't get to do an instant episode 4 reaction podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

We should have been in here the second the episode ended with like my

[Jordan Robinson]

little sort of stick figures.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just, I assume you have them at home.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean, I don't leave home without them. Actually they're in the car right now. Which stuff. Okay, so episode four, Beach Reads. Episode five, what to expect on your trip. That's what we're going to be talking about today day. If you were not aware, we're covering Euphoria week to week. We are Weird energy on a Sunday night. We come into the studio, we watch it live and then we record fairly shortly thereafter. So I would recommend, even if you're not watching Euphoria. Yeah, maybe tune into those podcasts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Cuz we basically have Patricia's party energy.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. Just our mouths hanging open in a spooky way. So that's something we're doing. We're also doing a couples or teen show look back episodes. So we covered Skins UK Season 1, Episode 1. Had a great time with it. A lot of people were very excited that we covered it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was very excited that we're covering it.

[Jordan Robinson]

I would say small but focal audience were, like, super stoked that we covered skins Season 1, Series 1, Episode 1.

[Rob Mahoney]

So aren't those our people? Small but very passionate about something.

[Jordan Robinson]

We have already recorded our Friday Night Lights episode which will be running next week.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

And then after that, we will be checking in on 5 and 6, 6 and 7, rather, because they're air. It's a double drop.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

So if you're a Widow's Bay head and you didn't know this, they're doing a double drop for six and seven, we think, though we're not sure. We think we're going to be doing week to week after that. But you folks at home, email us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let your voices be heard. How can they email us prestigetvpotify.com leave a comment spam those comments.

[Jordan Robinson]

Just keep that YouTube episode running in the background of whatever you're doing to keep the views up. And we'll keep checking in on Widow's Bay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hit the Instagram likes. Share with your friends. We're outsourcing.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not our responsibility.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's your job to keep the views up, though. The views were, like, higher than we thought they'd be.

[Rob Mahoney]

So people are digging the show.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. Widows Bay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, how could they not?

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay, so episode four, Beach Reads, was written by Mackenzie Dore of fucking WandaVision fame. Let's fucking go. The Darkhold is here. I'm thrilled. WandaVision, I love you always. And then directed by Sam Donovan, a severance director, among other things. And then episode five, what to Expect on youn Trip, was written by Colton Dunn, who had a brief role in Parks and Recreation. I know him best for playing Garrett on Superstore, a show that I actually like, really enjoyed. And he's a comedy writer as well. So he wrote that episode. And then directed by Andrew DeYoung, who We've talked about is, I thought a comedy director. You corrected me. That. That is not really the vibe of his work in general.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's complicated.

[Jordan Robinson]

Did episode five feel tonally in line with what you've seen from Andrew DeYoung, Chair Company, among other things that you've seen from him before?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it has the same whiff of, like, maybe not conspiracy, but broader suspicion as you're tripping out of your mind and you don't know what's going on or who you can trust and all those elements. But honestly, somehow this felt less insidious than the chair company did. So, you know, there are levels to

[Jordan Robinson]

all this stuff, even when he's staring into sort of like a blackened door. The abyss gazing. Our guy Tom laughs. Gazing into the abyss. Hearing, like, distorted sounds coming from it. And you're like, this is child's play compared to the chair company.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, capitalism is a hell of a thing.

[Jordan Robinson]

We got a lot of Widows bay emails, prestige tvotify.com. so we're gonna hit a brief meal mailbag. We're gonna check in on each individual episode. Our Fresh. Fresh as a Daisy takes on episode four that everyone is, like, still clamoring for.

[Rob Mahoney]

And you joke, but people are clamoring for. I would say specifically your takes on four.

[Jordan Robinson]

It was four. Me.

[Rob Mahoney]

You are seen and known in this moment.

[Jordan Robinson]

It is my fav. Episode of television this season. This. This year. This year.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would certainly put it up against anything that we've covered, anything that I've seen so far.

[Jordan Robinson]

I love Night of the Seven Kingdoms as like a season of television this year. I thought it was extraordinary. We, of course, loved, enjoyed covering the pit together, but as like, an episode, an isolated episode of television that I'm gonna remember for a long time. It's gonna be the witch stuff. Go. Episode of Widow's Bay, episode four. I just thought it was extraordinary.

[Rob Mahoney]

We love to see it. We love to see it done right. Like, I mean, we'll get into it in detail with the episode, but it's just a tonal tightrope, a masterclass in character. It's just such a great episode.

[Jordan Robinson]

So good. All right. Jesse wrote in, and I love a theory. Jesse really came through. Jesse wrote in to say I should have sent this before episode four came out because it would have been more impressive, but. Oh, well, it seems to me like they haven't shown Bashir's wife yet because she's going to be revealed to be pregnant. And the urgency to move off the island is because if they wait too long and the child is born there, they're stuck. Their quest for mid chocolate chip ice cream is definitely a hint in this direction. So in episode four on. On the radio or whatever, she's like, bring home some mint chip. He's like, I'm on it. This did not ping for me because mint chip ice cream is actually like my. One of my number one, like, go to flavors. I love mint and chocolate together.

[Rob Mahoney]

I support you.

[Jordan Robinson]

You don't. I know you don't. I know you hate mint and chocolate together.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm glad you can have that and I can have the good flavors.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay, great. Anyway, it didn't. It didn't ping. For me, as sort of, it's not like, bring me pickles and ice cream and I'm like, that's a pregnant lady. But for some people, they're like mint chip or ice cream. A specific ice cream request at all. Pregnancy coated. This is a brilliant idea. My theory was she's dead. I far prefer she's alive but pregnant. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, you are constantly on dead wife watch.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, it's Nolan season. That's what I'm saying.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like you've been conditioned to look forward in every corner. This does make more sense to me and it certainly facilitates, you know, the talk of Bashir and his wife trying to move and get off the island. And it sure seems like, especially in five, we're kind of navigating some of that same territory with Tom and his wife too. Who, I mean, are we to assume, this was my assumption, that when they are on the ferry where Tom's wife first starts, like going blind and having these complications, that they're going to the mainland, Right?

[Jordan Robinson]

Yes, absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that's you gotta get the fuck

[Jordan Robinson]

out of here, presuming you weren't born there. So, like, let's talk about this the very end of episode five, right? We get these visions of, or memories of Tom and his very pregnant wife on the ferry. I don't think the ferry goes anywhere but the mainland would be my guess. I mean, it could be an island hopping ferry. As long as you stay on the islands, you're fine. But they're at a certain, like to, to use lost parlance, a certain heading. Right, yes, that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Where's the fuselage Here?

[Jordan Robinson]

Right, exactly. I. So the, the theory, the legend we got earlier in the season was if you go to the mainland, you die.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

So they didn't make it all the way there. Tom is screaming for the ferry to be turned around. So it seems like she went blind on the ferry.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

Turned it around, had the baby on the island.

[Rob Mahoney]

They said the baby was found fine.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right. But I think she had him on the island.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, eventually, yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think they're back on the island. Like, turn the ferry around.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

They're back on the island. The story was she died in childbirth. Right. Complications from childbirth. But she's alive, though, unwell, after the baby is born?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I guess, like, are we to assume that the baby has been born or is it just the baby is doing fine? As a check.

[Jordan Robinson]

I don't think she's pregnant anymore as she's sitting in that bed.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm going to be honest with You. The visual of her sitting in that bed was so terrifying to me, I did not take a second look at it. So we have to investigate the tape to see. I mean, just our favorite game here of, like, which woman is showing at which point in which show.

[Jordan Robinson]

We love to body check women. That's our favorite thing to do.

[Rob Mahoney]

Famously fertile ground for discussion.

[Jordan Robinson]

Absolutely. So my interpretation was she had the baby back on the island, but she's not clearly not well.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right. But we don't know what happened, and it doesn't seem to be the same story that we've heard. As is. As is often the case on Widow's Bay. You hear one thing, you see another, Whatever. If you take certain mushrooms. Anyway, point being, if Bashir, the sheriff's wife, is pregnant, this introduces different stakes to his story, you know, because I. I love this premise about. You know, especially in episode five, which is all about Tom and his discomfort with lack of control. Right, right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Again, who could possibly relate?

[Jordan Robinson]

It couldn't be us. I do fear, like, hallucinogenics, because of

[Rob Mahoney]

course, we do that.

[Jordan Robinson]

Lack of control, Are you kidding me? There are other drugs where I'm like, sure, that's fine, but hallucinogenics, I'm like, I'm not in control. I'm not driving the bus.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, a fun, buzzy, heightened state. Sure.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Complete lack of control and perception and literally understanding of where you are in place and time. That's gonna be a no for me.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's not for Rob and Joanna, that's for sure. Anyway. But. So he's preoccupied throughout that episode with Evan. Right. So introducing Evan as. It's a very humanizing thing for Tom. Right. Tom is in many ways a tough character. You know, is rude is all these other things, but he cares so deeply about his son.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

And is so protective of his son and so fearful for his son. Praying to a God, he doesn't even know if it exists to protect his son. And so introducing this idea of this danger. He doesn't know how dangerous it is out there is what Tom says. So this danger for Evan, a kid born on this island, has never left this island because Tom is so. Because this thing happened with his wife, and Tom is so afraid it's gonna happen to his son. So what is that going to do to a character like Bashir who has a pregnant wife? Yes. And that's really potentially very interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I also love the way both of these episodes are really delving into all of the mythology and the creepy stuff happening on the island, but in like the stories we tell kind of way. Right. All of Patricia's arc and story in episode four is so much about like she is so sure, or at least telling people that she's so sure that she was visited by the boogeyman. We can.

[Jordan Robinson]

I believepatricia.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm at the point where I believe her. But also I wouldn't be surprised if we get a reveal where it was a classmate playing a prank. Like somebody was breaking into her house as a mean bit Patricia. But regardless, it's about like the stories you are telling out in the community, who you're telling them to, what the costs of those things are. And so for Tom and Bashir, you would think if something as intense and scary as what seems to happen to Tom's wife actually happened, someone like Bashir would know about it. But also that's maybe the kind of story you keep very tight, very quiet, all to yourself. If Bashir and his wife have all of the facts, they should be operating with a much greater sense of urgency.

[Jordan Robinson]

Already gone.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jordan Robinson]

Provided that neither of them were born on the island, which I don't think we know that information.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I don't think we know either, to your point.

[Jordan Robinson]

And I. And I will go back to the mailbag. But I really loved this interview that Katie Dippold gave the wrap about episode four. Just about how they came up concept for the episode and. And it really unlocks something for me about like the way in which they're thinking about these fun horror tropes and how they relate to these char. These like fully fleshed out characters that they've created here. Right. So she says one of the writers had this idea of a self help book that goes wrong and it started a conversation about what are Patricia's fears. One thing I always think about with Patricia is the thing that is scarier to her than the idea of dying is the idea of dying and no one caring about it. That brought in the one thing we always try to do when we're using these horror tropes, which is tell a story about a character who is feeling very real human emotions. The conversation became what if she had a party? And we got really into the stress of throwing a party and not knowing if anyone's gonna show up. I've experienced that myself. That's Katie, but also Joanna. I've experienced that. Is that fear. Everyone in the room has experienced that or something similar. So we just went from there and really tried as much as possible. To stick to that. Even though the book is scary, there's nothing scary to Patricia in that episode. Then no one coming to her thing. Sidebar. I can't remember if I've talked to you about this. I know I talked to someone about this on a podcast, but my friend in college used to call it a Little Man Tate party. In the film Little Man Tate with Jodie Foster, she throws this elaborate birthday party for her son, and nobody shows up. And so my friend Sarah in college would always be like, what if it's a Little Man Tate party? What if no one shows up? That's never happened to me. But it's like, it is true. That's a real fear. But this idea of, like, okay, as the writers in this incredible writers room are plotting out the season and they're like, let's do a Jaws episode. Let's do a Shining episode. Let's do this. Applying that idea of, like, what is Patricia's greatest fear to episode five. What is Tom's greatest fear? Lack of control.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

So let's do a drug trip episode and put him out of control, I think is a really fun skeleton key to unlock the rest of the season as we go through these.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very much so, yeah. Interlocking all of that mythology and the trope stuff with the character beats. And I think specifically for Patricia in something like Becoming an Accidental Witch, where a lot of witch stories, it's a dream. I mean, we all can aspire to it. But I feel like a lot of witch stories and specifically a lot of modern witch stories are about community. Right. It's about covens. It's about, like, how do you connect with, you know, your Sisters of the Dark Arts? And this is so much a story about loneliness and about desperation and, like, she's kind of turning to this stuff accidentally because she's, like, been shut out by her entire community.

[Jordan Robinson]

Thank you so much for talking about witches, Rob. It means a lot to me, personally.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love nothing more.

[Jordan Robinson]

But if you think of something like Anya, Taylor, Joy, and the Va va va Vince. Right. Like, that. That film is about. It is about finding another community, but about feeling on the outside of the community that you live in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, but spoiler alert. There is a community to be.

[Jordan Robinson]

There is a community to be found. At the end of the day, it's naked, it flies. It's great. But, like, which is rule. But, yeah. It's about being an outsider, being misunderstood, being, you know, all of these things.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, sir. We got very derailed from the mailbag.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's okay, we're back. Sarah has a great email about Patricia's wardrobe. Right. She says, I just wanted to note that while there are many obvious nods to Stephen King throughout, was I the only one who thought a punch bowl full of pig's blood might be hidden in the rafters during Patricia's toast?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

One slightly more subtle connection to King was Patricia's wardrobe. Top notch tank top and great pattern clashing combos. I particularly love the culottes and red cardigan. She shouts out the costume designer Alex Bovard is no accident. That as well as hints of Carrie prom queen. She's dressed throughout like Shelley Duvall in the Shining.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

Shelley had such iconic style and Kato Flynn has a similar offbeat beauty. Wardrobe often gets overlooked, but I think they're doing fantastic work here. Thank you, Sarah for that email. But I love, I love that calling out that Patricia's wardrobe specifically, like, you know, this is a, this is a quirky island full of quirky people. But everyone looks like they're dressed relatively, I would say, with the exception of some of Evan's friends who kind of look like they could be from the 70s or whatever.

[Rob Mahoney]

As is our time.

[Jordan Robinson]

Kada Flynn, like, as Patricia is very Shelley duvall, like late 1970s coded in her work. It's a great show and it's, it's a really good.

[Rob Mahoney]

And the Carrie comp is right there.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean the tiara is there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tiara. And just kind of like the mean girl energy permeating around Patricia. Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

First of all, shout out the Paddy Wagon, which is the name of her bookmobile, which is incredible.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not to put you on the spot, but as a book lover yourself, do you have a name based pun that you would embrace if you were to drive your own wagon?

[Jordan Robinson]

I need a week to think about it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would love to hear.

[Jordan Robinson]

I will come back.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would love to hear recommendations to prestigetvpotify.com this is, I would say, your one true calling.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, if I had a bookmobile and was a witch, this is my dream.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can I tell you? There's nothing stopping you.

[Jordan Robinson]

And a bonfire on the beach and potentially vengeance on my enemies. Come on.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, that's really the icing on the cake.

[Jordan Robinson]

Come on. Okay. In the Patty Wagon bookmobile donation box, along with the grimoire that finds its way, there is a copy of a Stephen King book. They don't show the title, it just says Stephen King. But it is a copy of the Shining because I did look up which book it was.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, I mean, you impress me every day. Jo. Just truly incredible detective work.

[Jordan Robinson]

That was some real freeze frame Mahoney work, I thought.

[Rob Mahoney]

But this is the thing. Once we get into novel book spines, I just simply don't have the point of reference. Now you show me a shelf of DVDs. True Detective Night country, and you're like,

[Jordan Robinson]

why are they watching Ferris Bueller over and over again? I have some questions.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've sorted through some bins in my time.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's true. It's true. We got a couple emails of people asking, you know, you brought up the great Katie Dippold Babadook tweet, which she was on the ScriptNotes podcast and they asked her about it. So shout out Craig Mason and John August doing the great journalism work. But how much is that Babadook tweet present in your mind when you're watching something like episode four? Watching Patricia a party, I didn't even

[Rob Mahoney]

quite put it together in that way. What's so great about the Babadook tweet is at some point in our lives, we are all the Babadook. Right. Like, we are all the babadook in the wrong room. And so it's just Patricia's turn.

[Jordan Robinson]

When have you been the most babadook at a party?

[Rob Mahoney]

Right now, man. I gotta really think about that one. It's not an overdressed, underdressed situation. I think it's just you're bringing the wrong energy to this setting.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

So there has to be a time.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean, here's a vision I have of a. Of a moment where Rob is the Babadin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Please.

[Jordan Robinson]

You go to, like, watch movies with some friends or something like that. Not, not like your friends that you have your Leonardo DiCaprio marathon with, but like some other new friends or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Fringe friends. Prospective friends.

[Jordan Robinson]

Prospective friends. They're not paying attention to the movie.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh.

[Jordan Robinson]

And you're like, heartbreaking. Why are we chattering when a movie's on? That's my idea of.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's very tough.

[Jordan Robinson]

You just like instantly get a hat on your head because you've babadooked yourself.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, that was me trying to show some friends Wet Hot American Summer.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe my favorite comedy of all time. And like the pin drop silence in that room. I was like, oh, no.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, no.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've really babadooked it.

[Jordan Robinson]

Do you want to get stories from our listeners when they babadooked it?

[Rob Mahoney]

Please.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay. Prestige tvpotify.com if you've ever baba duked it at a party.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not if when you did. We know you have. We've all done it.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay. Jillian wrote in with a question that that was sort of like, bopping around in my head, which is that the actor Kingston Rumi Southwick, who plays Evan, who we already said we, like, really love, he is a biracial actor. The actors playing his parents are white. In Presumed Innocent, the show that we saw him in previously on Apple, he was the child of Ruth Negga and Jake Gyllenhaal. So like a biracial kid with, you

[Rob Mahoney]

know, the sibling of Chase Infinity.

[Jordan Robinson]

The sibling of Chase Infinity. So, like, he's here playing the son of two very white people aggressively. Is. Is there something, you know, like, I don't think you get whiter than Welsh. And I say that as a person of Welsh extraction, honestly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very true.

[Jordan Robinson]

So, you know, Gillian was sort of cooking some theories around this. I. I have been burned by these kinds of theories in my Westworld days. I don't think it's necessarily the right track to go down, but it did, like, sort of raise a question mark in my. In my mind. And perhaps, you know, the show is just sort of like, we don't care.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it's certainly a thing to flag, I think the greater mystery around his birth, the incredibly weird circumstances surrounding it.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's up for grabs, and we're going to be talking about it for potentially weeks to come.

[Jordan Robinson]

Sophie wrote in, and a couple people wrote in to note that we did not reference John Carpenter's the Fog when talking about influences. But I do want to, and I don't get credit for this because I didn't say it into a microphone, but I do want to say I did text Rob to. When we were floating back and forth. Some inspos for this. I said, it's John Carpenter's the Fog meets Stephen King's the Mist. That was a joke I made, but I didn't say it into a microphone, so it doesn't count.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, yeah, so it wasn't a joke. It's just what the show is.

[Jordan Robinson]

It is. It is. But, yeah, John Carpenter's the Fog is. Is very much top of mind here. And then Sophie also wrote in. Sophie is a real horror movie expert. Wrote in to say, as an aside of my favorite, with throwaway reference to a horror movie is our girl Patricia's reference to the bogeyman. One of the things that people in the town of Haddonfield call Michael Myers. So, like, we were sort of already noting this, this Halloween reference, but she says when Patricia talked about the boogeyman, she says she refers to her experiences as, quote, the night he came, which is almost the exact tagline of the movie Halloween, which is the night he came home, is the tagline for Halloween. So that's. That's totally went over my head.

[Rob Mahoney]

Great guy.

[Jordan Robinson]

Great shout. Great shout. John wrote in to ask us the larger question of how long should a show run? I think that's just something I want to continue thinking about as we go through this season. You and I were asking this question after the first three episodes of, like, how many seasons of Widow's Bay do we want? There's a part of me that wants it to run forever, but then there's another part of me of, like, if it's, you know, if there's mysteries to be solved on an island, Carlton Cus and Damon Lindelof can tell you there's a limit to that of how many mysteries you can have on a haunted island.

[Rob Mahoney]

But also multiple seasons of 22 episodes,

[Jordan Robinson]

to be honest with you. And then if we're sort of riffing on horror movie tropes, how many of those do we have to go through? There's a ton of horror movies, but in terms of, like, those tropes, how many of those exist? You know, it's true. Do we move away from sort of the, like, trope of the week idea as it goes forward or, you know, these are questions for Kitty Dippold and her writers. But, you know, a question for us is, what's too much of a good thing?

[Rob Mahoney]

I know.

[Jordan Robinson]

Or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think these days we're inundated with so much of anything that is even remotely good that I'm already a finality oriented person, despite the fact that we covered TV for a living. So the deafness with which this show is dealing with its characters feels so tight and controlled, and it feels like they just have their finger on the pulse of this exact story. I'm a little scared once we get past the confines of this individual season and story into what a season two could be. But also, if you've earned that trust, you've earned that trust.

[Jordan Robinson]

And we don't know if there's going to be, say, a Dale episode or a Rosemary episode this season, but I could see that being something we do in a season two.

[Rob Mahoney]

We can only hope and pray there's a Rosemary episode.

[Jordan Robinson]

I'm pulling for my guy, Dale. I love him so much. All right, check, check.

[Rob Mahoney]

One, two, one, two, one, two, three. Check, check.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's a surprising complicated system. He doesn't have Spotify Premium the way

[Rob Mahoney]

after Patricia Scolds him and then he starts whispering it into the microphone.

[Jordan Robinson]

Can we get Dale hooked up with a Spotify Premium membership is literally the

[Rob Mahoney]

least we could do?

[Jordan Robinson]

I think so. Let's call the Swedes. Get them on the case. We mentioned we're New Jersey in our previous episode. Our listener Beth wrote in to say we drove our car to a legendary spot in North New Jersey where if you put your car in neutral, it goes slowly in reverse on its own, like you're being, quote, pulled by a ghost. It really works and is freaky the ledges that a family of farmers were killed in a car crash and they haunt the area. I have to presume, though Beth did not note this, that you're not on any kind of incline. The idea is you're. You're presumably parked flat and all of a sudden if your car's in neutral, it will be pulled slowly backwards. Could not be me. I will not be doing that. No. Would you do that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's totally fine. I'm not going into the Boogeyman house. But a spooky magnetism.

[Jordan Robinson]

What if an off island girl would be impressed by you doing so?

[Rob Mahoney]

Something to think about, you know, it could be negotiated, but. So are you out on anything even remotely spooky like the Winchester Mystery House?

[Jordan Robinson]

I went to the Winchester Mystery House multiple times.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. What is your mileage as far as

[Jordan Robinson]

that experience when I was little, it scared the shit out of. And then do you remember that they made a movie about it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually didn't know that.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh yeah. With Helen Mirren, Jason Clark. They did the junket at the Winchester Mystery House. I went and the only thing that could get me back to the Winchester Mystery House after being scared shitless about it as a child was the prospect of interviewing Helen Mirren, which I did inside the Winchester Mystery House.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's really the only place to interview a dame.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. My hair was purple at the time. And she said she liked my hair. I don't think she did. I don't think she did. She was just like.

[Rob Mahoney]

It was just the thing you said.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think she was shocked and alarmed by it. I like your hair in a way

[Rob Mahoney]

that I think she did not like my hair.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's okay. Dame Helen.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not choose to take her at her word.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay, great. Believe a dame when she says something. Our listener Lily wrote in. I didn't mention this, but I did know this. As a fellow Buffy fan, Lily said I couldn't not point out that the actress who plays Jerry also played Pat Joyce's empanada baking friend from book club in Dead Man's Party. A true icon, Pat. A legend in this very patchy Season 2 episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Rob Mahoney]

What are you saying? By patchy, you mean unimpeachable haunted exotic mask?

[Jordan Robinson]

Is. Is. Is not my favorite trope that Buffy has ever used.

[Rob Mahoney]

I got bad news for you about Buffy in general. It's not. Not the last time that will be explored. And then all the more exciting with the Buffy connection. The fact that Jerry is now, like, one of the Scoobies.

[Jordan Robinson]

She and Rick have a. A history.

[Rob Mahoney]

They really do. And she is a, like, Smithsonian level.

[Jordan Robinson]

She put the gloves on.

[Rob Mahoney]

Conservator.

[Jordan Robinson]

She put the gloves on. And she's a math teacher, I guess. So she's.

[Rob Mahoney]

You really can do it all.

[Jordan Robinson]

You can on this island.

[Rob Mahoney]

You have to do it all.

[Jordan Robinson]

You have to do it all. All right, last question from our listener singer. Are we shipping Patricia and Tom?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not.

[Jordan Robinson]

Patricia did have a slightly weird energy when she's like, oh, you picked up a woman. Oh, interesting. And part of that was the sort of, like, really funny, like, age stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

But was there some energy from Patricia about that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there definitely could be. I appreciate their bond nonetheless.

[Jordan Robinson]

Follow question. They're leashed to each other inside of this episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's a lot happening.

[Jordan Robinson]

I love how over Tom's, like, drug trip shit. Patricia constantly, like, anytime we check back in with her, she's like, yes, Tom, very good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Use your crayons.

[Jordan Robinson]

Use your crayons, Tom. I'm kind of into it. I'm gonna keep my eye on. I'm not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not into it. But I will say the warmth regardless of when they find Patricia at the end of four and just like.

[Jordan Robinson]

And they're like, come join us.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're gonna need you. We need you. It's a powerful thing to be needed.

[Jordan Robinson]

I got very emotional about that. One of our listeners wrote in saying they wanted my Blair Witch story. So I'll just say it into a microphone, which is that when the Blair Witch Project came out, a friend of mine, still my friend to this day, invited me over to his house, made pesto burgers, like, on the grill. And then I had a sobe, which was a white flavor, which is pina colada. And then we went to go watch the Blair Wish Project, and I got tremendously ill. And in the Chili's afterwards, I vomited in the bathroom.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, wait, so you also went to Chili's?

[Jordan Robinson]

That was not my. That was not. I wanted to go home.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, got you.

[Jordan Robinson]

Because I was ill. But my friends who I were with were like, let's go hang out out at Chili's. And I was like. And then I went into the bathroom, threw up, and I came out. I was like, I just threw up the bathroom. And they're like, okay, well, we ordered you a shake. I was like, cool story. I'm going home.

[Rob Mahoney]

I will not be drinking that delicious chocolate shake. And for the record, that was not judgment. This is a pro Chili's podcast, of course, but you listed four great tastes that do not taste great together. The Blair Witch, a pina colada Sobey, a pesto burger, and potentially a Chili's milkshake.

[Jordan Robinson]

I have not had a pesto burger since. I don't even know if it's ever.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not a thing.

[Jordan Robinson]

I've not had it since a white. So I don't think I've had a Sobey since that ended my relationship with Sobeys.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think a lot of the. I don't think a lot of, like, the living world has had a. So I don't think so.

[Jordan Robinson]

He's made it out of the 90s, and that's okay. And I am fearful of Shaky Cam horror movies ever since.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

But anyway, that's my Blair Witch. And then we ran into a guy we went to middle school with in the lobby, and he told us he saw a dead guy under a bridge once. That's a story. That. That's my Blair Wish story.

[Rob Mahoney]

What a day for you.

[Jordan Robinson]

It was a day. It was a real day.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did you think it was the Shaky Cam specifically that kind of upset your sister?

[Jordan Robinson]

Absolutely. It wasn't the horror. It was just like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I was thinking it was just the Pesto Burger and Sobey complex.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, perhaps if I had gone in without that unholy combination in me, I would have had a better time.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you would have eaten the same thing but gone to see Must Love Dogs, it would have been fine.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, that. That's ill inducing of its own in its own way.

[Rob Mahoney]

Could be.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know what I mean? I think if I were ever to see a Shaky Cam thing again, and I've made it my mission not to, I would go in with a completely empty snot. It would be like water and saltines for that day. Treat it like a boat trip. That's how I say you should treat.

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[Jordan Robinson]

is brought to you by America's Cookout Classics Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer.

[Rob Mahoney]

This summer we're celebrating 250 years of American cookouts with all the classics, Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer.

[Jordan Robinson]

Rob, what's your ideal cookout scenario?

[Rob Mahoney]

First of all, I want you on the Ox. I trust you with that sacred responsibility to pick our music. I'm going to have to man the grill and I'm going to need like a copious amount of condiments. I need every possible fixin imaginable.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, make sure to top your burger with only the best Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. And you know it's not a cookout without Heinz ketchup and mustard.

[Rob Mahoney]

Different vibes, same ingredients. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer. Shop at your local retailer.

[Jordan Robinson]

Let's get into episode four, Beach Reads. Can I talk to you about teeth in Witchcraft and Mythology?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would be disappointed if you didn't.

[Jordan Robinson]

Teeth have been an ongoing thing, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

There were teeth mysteriously on the island when the original settlers got there. We had the tooth game in the hotel episode. Teeth are. Listen, I'm not a witch, though I wish I was. In witchcraft in general, one can use fingernail clippings, hair, whatever, to sort of, like, do a spell to control someone. So teeth is one of the, like, sort of key, iconic things that you can use to control someone.

[Rob Mahoney]

Does seem harder to get than the other things.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, that's what the pliers are for in the teeth game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Aren't they just.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay. And then in terms of mythology, and I often am Jason and the Argonauts, or Cadmus in sort of Greek mythology, there's the story of sewing dragon teeth in a field. Do you ever learn this story? No. Okay, so Jason of Jason the Argonauts fame, was given dragon teeth and told to sew them into the ground. And if he did, extremely strong and powerful warriors would pop up out of the ground for every tooth you planted.

[Rob Mahoney]

A powerful warrior, one to one, tooth

[Jordan Robinson]

to warrior, exactly as you would expect and hope. They're scary, they're violent. In both the Cadmus story and the Jason story, the solution to not get killed by them is to throw a rock in the middle of them and they each think that someone else threw the rock in the first place. And then they all kill each other.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Jordan Robinson]

And so then.

[Rob Mahoney]

So these guys are dumb.

[Jordan Robinson]

They're dumb and they're strong. So the phrase to sow dragon's teeth means to do something that has. That will cause a fight right in the first place. Does any of that have anything to do with this show? I don't know. But I thought while we're talking about witches, I might as well talk about mythology.

[Rob Mahoney]

We got witches, we got teeth. There could be powerful but dumb warriors in episodes to come.

[Jordan Robinson]

I can only hope. You know, it's July 1st. That's what we know from the invite. The Evite that Patricia sent out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Obsessively refreshing, sad.

[Jordan Robinson]

Really tough. Really tough to watch, honestly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

July 1st. And then it's one day later in episode five, so it's July. So I guess they're doing July 2nd fireworks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I guess it depends on maybe. Maybe it's like a weekend thing.

[Jordan Robinson]

Sure, yeah. It's the Friday or the Saturday, and the fourth is on a Monday. And who wants to do fireworks on a Monday? Yeah, I guess. Or maybe they plan to do it all weekend.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do we have any confirmation that it's not a few Days later, we do,

[Jordan Robinson]

because unfortunately, I was hoping it was the fourth. Bashir said to Patricia, there's some people who woke up in the ocean last night, and they have some questions.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, yeah, maybe that was just recreational, you know? And they're blaming Patricia yet again.

[Jordan Robinson]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, yeah, I mean, you spike the punch one time.

[Jordan Robinson]

One time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let your. All of your friends and, like, neighbors get overrun by the Necronomicon one time, and this is what happens.

[Jordan Robinson]

I do have some questions for, like, how this spell works, because obviously Rosemary sees right through it, you know, the whole time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, she was getting the ingredients, but

[Jordan Robinson]

when you get the. When we get the reveal. Honestly, one of the best reveals that has ever happened in all of television.

[Rob Mahoney]

Exquisite.

[Jordan Robinson]

Even though, you know that, like, something's going wrong, of course, and a spell is being cast and all this sort of the. The visual reveal, the Kevin Carroll as

[Rob Mahoney]

Bashir's delivery of, what the fuck are you doing?

[Jordan Robinson]

So good. So outstanding. But when she goes out into the. Into the bar and sees sort of the wreckage of the party and there's, like, like, little cups turned over with, like, a little bit of fur and scalp in them. Yeah, I'm just sort of like. Cause I was like, okay. As soon as they drink the punch, yes, the spell is cast, but presumably it's cast before that, because presumably you would not drink the punch if you saw a bit of a woodland critter floating in it in the first place. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, this is where I think, you know, the little centerpieces on the tables or something like that could come into play. Right. There is a general bewitching that has already happened before they ever drink the punch, for sure.

[Jordan Robinson]

Playlist. Who knows? Who knows what spellwork has.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is how we do it. Ad supported Y. Yeah, that's a bewitching song.

[Jordan Robinson]

This is not a bottle episode. I'm seeing this phrase tossed around on the Internet. Not a bottle episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not what that means.

[Jordan Robinson]

What is a bottle episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it has to be one location primarily. I guess every episode of Widow's Bay is kind of a bottle episode in the sense that they're on the island.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think if everything took place in the bar.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, that would be a bottle episode.

[Jordan Robinson]

That would be a bottle episode. But I mean, the, like, first of all, this connect. Like, this is Patricia's larger story. You know, there are rep. Repercussions for it. In episode five, like, Bashir is still, like, this is an ongoing investigation into what happened here. And the episode ends with, like, the death of another character. You know what I mean? Like, this is. It's a Patricia focused episode, but it's not a bottle episode. And I don't think it's like a side quest in any way. I think this is just all the larger woven tapestry of the island and its history. The boogeyman is definitely coming back into play at some point. So it's just not a bottle episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

No. I would say the best bottle episodes, yes, are a self contained adventure, but have like good character repercussions that transcend, but not necessarily plot repercussions. And as you said, there are way too many very important things happening.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And the fact that this episode is an undercurrent where it's basically us checking in with what Patricia has been doing while the other part of this story has been going on distinctly not a bottle.

[Jordan Robinson]

That also makes me really excited about episode five to see sort of like what exactly Patricia and Wick were up to while Tom was indisposed, as it were. Die in a fire, Chris. She almost did, but Die in a fire Chris sucks. Right. Chris is the main mean girl. At the same time, I didn't appreciate in the bar this sort of humanizing moment of like, she's like, all of my friends died. So like, she's a mean girl. She's like horrible to Patricia in an outsized, like, bully kind of way in a. Aren't we all adults here? Why are we still acting like we're sexy? But we introduce. And again, inside of like a 30 minute episode, we introduce some dimensionality to this character, this Chris character at the

[Rob Mahoney]

same time and to the social dynamics of the island as a whole.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right, right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just this idea that it's not that it's this group of women is so cliquey that no one can break in. Like, we see this woman who just moved to town and she's like just kind of ushered in and a part of the group now. It is so much about this history and about the idea that, I mean, that part of Chris is totally understandable if you were surrounded by that kind of tragedy, especially at a young age. The idea that somebody would be like, trying to benefit from it for attention of all things would be so distasteful and so enraging that you would. I mean, I think it'd be hard not to carry that with you for a really long time, but she does that and then is just like making constant mean comments about Patricia. I think all of the ways this episode kind of very subtly seeds how much on the outside looking in Patricia Is with basically everybody in this group, even something as simple as, like, can you take the photo of me and all my friends? We're all drinking white, but you can totally open that red.

[Jordan Robinson]

Like, please don't open that cabinet.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I'm like, of course not.

[Jordan Robinson]

The cabinet full of wine glasses. What the fuck are you doing?

[Rob Mahoney]

God forbid. Yeah. There's just so many ways in which we're told and shown that Patricia is not welcome here. Doesn't feel like she's of this group, even though she potentially could have been once upon a time.

[Jordan Robinson]

We also, we called out Kato Flynn is like an incredible performer in the first three episodes, but just like her body language throughout all. Like when she shows up with the wine in the first place to the party, and she's just like, immediately awkward and out of place and then just everything thereafter. Her dancing, incredible. So good. And then I just wanted to shout out sort of the connective tissue between the episodes. Because as much as these feel like the hotel episode, the Sea Hag episode, et cetera, the Bachelorette party is here. If you go back to episode three, when Tom is asking about Patricia and Dale says she's pretty caught up in her cocktail hour, that's a fun line on rewatch or watching Patricia leave the voicemail that we heard Tom listen to in episode three, you know, it's just like all sort of woven together in a really, really nice way. Pour one out for the hussies. Toby Huss character is dead. I know. Makes me really sad. It's too soon. Way too soon.

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to come back to him a little bit in the categories, too.

[Jordan Robinson]

Anything else you want to say influences here? Carrie Blair Witch Project. Yellow jackets, for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Of course.

[Jordan Robinson]

True Detective Season 1, Wicker Man, Green Man, Legends, et cetera, et cetera. Anything else that you want to call out?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I just. All of the witch stuff is so fun and specifically the idea of, like, the punch as potion, the toast as incantation. Like, it's just seeded so well.

[Jordan Robinson]

But also toast, as in you're gonna like, roast these. Like, light them on fire.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Again, like, as a laugh per minute exercise, it's a little delayed because everything that's happening with Patricia is so intense. But then once the reveal comes and you see exactly what's been happening in the kitchen, with which, if we just want to break it down, I mean, there are multiple blackbirds on that cutting board. Actually rewind before that. The way that Patricia is cutting what we're shown as strawberries is already quite upsetting. Then it's revealed to be a blackbird. At least one. I think there's, like, multiple carcasses there.

[Jordan Robinson]

Squirrels and other woodlands.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's some kind of white, furry creature.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, this is what you freeze framed on. Not the Stephen King title, but, like, the animal corpse.

[Rob Mahoney]

I need to see the corpses. I need to see what's going on. It looks like there's maybe even, like, a nest of little blackbirds involved. Also a mortar and pestle of just, like, bones and spooky roots of a kind that I'm not into, but it's part of the craft.

[Jordan Robinson]

I have a question for Chef Rob. Do you have a mortar and pestle?

[Rob Mahoney]

Of course I do.

[Jordan Robinson]

And what do you. What's your favorite thing to use it for?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, here's the thing.

[Jordan Robinson]

Are you a garlic masher person?

[Rob Mahoney]

Economically, it just takes a lot of time.

[Jordan Robinson]

It does.

[Rob Mahoney]

So this is the. This is the problem. Mortar and pesto is the ideal way to make pesto. For example, for a pesto burger that will make you very sick. Like, it's just so time intensive. It's like, why would I not food process this?

[Jordan Robinson]

Sure. You have it as it's decorative.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's decorative. I would say. Like, it's good for guac in particular. That, I think, is the best actual practical application for mortar and pestle. Or crushing spices.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. Or witch stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

How many bones have been in your mortar and pestle?

[Jordan Robinson]

0.

[Rob Mahoney]

0.

[Jordan Robinson]

So far. We see the corpses that you have cataloged and quantified. There is also, like, a. I don't know what you call it, like, a deli. Sort of, like, buzzsaw situation. What is that?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah, it looks like a meat

[Jordan Robinson]

slicer, a meat sl. Like, but the serrated edges was just, like, dripping with blood. So what did we slice?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, again, how are you supposed to get through that bone with just, like, a dulled kitchen knife from the salty whale.

[Jordan Robinson]

She's just, like, chopping like this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't chop. Don't chop your strawberries that way. Don't do it.

[Jordan Robinson]

All right. Anything else you want to say about episode four before we get to five?

[Rob Mahoney]

I just fucking loved it.

[Jordan Robinson]

It was so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I will, you know, to revisit the part about Patricia's story. I don't know how to make heads or tales of that just yet. As far as what's true or what's not, I almost don't exactly care or think that we need to know. It's like, the idea that she believes it's true and other people don't is enough. Tension for me.

[Jordan Robinson]

You think we're. But okay, yes. Whether or not she's telling the truth, I could see that being not revealed. But we're definitely getting a Bogeyman episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't you think there's a lot of Boogeyman references. I mean, we visited the house.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, we saw the house. I was just looking at the episode titles for the rest of the season. I don't have anything that, like your baggage. Emergency Shelter. We hope you enjoyed your time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Emergency Shelter certainly sounds like maybe the cement chair door situation underneath. What could. Well, it's underneath the salty whale. We know that.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

So it's not underneath the Boogeyman house, But I was gonna ask, do you think there's any bit of truth to the story among the teens about, like, this Boogeyman guy couldn't even be killed? They had to, like, put him into some kind of cement prison slash grave.

[Jordan Robinson]

Some real Michael Myers shit right there. Boogeyman. We await your arrival with great glee. All right, so what to expect on your trip? Episode 5? We've already talked about sort of this, like, Tom not in control thing. Evan saying, one of these days I'm gonna leave, and I'm never, ever coming back. And that, of course, is Tom's number one fear, which is that Evan leaves and dies, never, ever comes back. Not just leaves, but, like, his life is over. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, as we're kind of teased here with everything that happened to his wife or suggested did. Like, maybe there's things that are worse than death involved, too. Maybe death is just one of the outcomes.

[Jordan Robinson]

Potentially never, ever coming back. Like, like, mentally.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

Abrupt subject change. Inspiration. So something that I posited to you mere minutes before we started recording is like, should we check in on some other classic drug trip episodes of television? I had some time to prepare for this. You had mere minutes. What did you come up with that you wanted to talk about?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, as I made the list, I was like, I love all of these episodes.

[Jordan Robinson]

I know. It's a great trope.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a great one. The first one that came to mind for me was Six Feet under, where Ruth takes lsd. And specifically, it's another, like, tightly wound. You would never expect this person to let their guard down. Matriarch in that story. Absolutely. Tripping balls. Wonderful. BoJack Horseman might be the saddest trip episode that I've ever seen. Mad Men, I mean, Roger Sterling tripping out again. Heavy mirror involvement going on there in a way that I appreciate, but maybe the singular one from my Experience is there's a whole episode of Cowboy Bebop in which the entire cast eats mushrooms, including Ein the Corgi, and are just off on their respective journeys over the course of the episode. Unbelievable.

[Jordan Robinson]

Tv on the. On the animated front, the Cactus Juice episode of Avatar the Last Airbender. Incredibly good. It'll quench you. Nothing's quenchier. So Roger's LSD trip on Mad Men is a really good shot. That season five, episode six, Faraway Places. But season six, episode eight of Mad Men is the crash when they all take speed in the office. And I rewatched it, and I actually think of all sort of the drug trade episodes that I checked in on this morning, briefly. That one seemed to me to be the closest. Don Draper, like, Matthew Reese's acting and Don Draper's acting is, like, very similar.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

The auditory hallucinations, the, like, sounds of, like, laughter and gibbering and, like, stuff like that is there. It's a great episode. Kenny Cosgrove, like, tap dancing on a broken foot. Like, you know, what could be better? But, like, yeah, the amphetamine episode of Mad Men is a real one. There's a very famous and really for a good reason episode of Roseanne where Roseanne and Dan and Jackie all smoke weed and they lock themselves in the bathroom and they're just like. It's very, very funny. Freaks and Geeks, of course, has a great Lindsay Gets High episode. Would you count the Watchmen nostalgia episode? I don't know if I would, but I was thinking about it in terms of that sort of like. Like, surreal losing time, jumping through time. It's a supernatural drug. But, like, I was gonna say, it's

[Rob Mahoney]

already kind of that sort of show.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Again with that, like, very subjective, very loopy orientation. Like, I. Yeah, it feels more of a piece with just the rest of Watchmen, to be honest with you.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's true. Spaced, one of my favorite shows of all time, actually.

[Rob Mahoney]

Never seen Space.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, you'd really.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I'm very familiar with its reputation.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. But, like, they're. They're watching Star Wars. They're stoned out of their mind. And then Simon Pegg's character is like. And they're like, what? What? And he's like, I just remembered I've got Jaffa Cakes in my pocket. Incredible stone moment. But the thing that I was thinking about the most, and this is because of its, like, the overlap of this show and its DNA with Parks and Recreation, is the flu episode of Parks and Rec, when Leslie is like, Trying to go about her day with terrible flu, including one of these, like, sort of town meeting, you know, sort of moments. So I. I was thinking about Leslie Knope a lot in this episode. Also in, like, the movie front, like, thinking about, like. Like something like Mandy, you know, like a horror movie that is. Is very, like, drug focus, I think, often about Mandy or, like, the Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent. Like, the whole Nick Cage oeuvre.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why not?

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, it's all. It's all.

[Rob Mahoney]

Whether he's literally or just kind of metaphorically taking drugs is always happening at basically every point in time.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, did you have a favorite? My favorite sort of. Not just the cutting in and out of time, which I thought was so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

But the way that the lights, like, went down and came up on various sequences to sort of take you in and out of time, I thought was so artistically, like, really interesting. What did you. What did you like?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's the kind of thing, too, where other. When other shows attempt to do these sorts of time jumps, it can feel clunky in the edit.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it really does take, like, a very particular kind of touch to make it feel organic, to make it feel germane to the story, to make it feel like, again, that you are in for an artistic process and not just like, hey, we're trying to do David lynch or whatever. It's like. Like, this did feel so cohesive in a way that I think it's just, like, cinematically very impressive.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. All of the buttons into. I don't know if you can button into a scene, but all of the. All of the lines into the scene, like, stop yelling at. Yeah. The unbuttoning. Stop yelling at me, Tom. Or, like, just give me a name. Or, like, you know, whatever the case may be. I thought that was really, really good. Chris Fleming is here. Chris Fleming. Are you a Chris Fleming fan?

[Rob Mahoney]

I wasn't too familiar before this episode, but I've gone a little down the rabbit hole.

[Jordan Robinson]

He's so fun here as Todd o', Connor, shaman drug dealer. I love that reveal when Patricia's like, Todd o'. Connor. He's like, hey, Patty, Chris Loving's really funny. I think he's a great comedian. I don't think I've ever seen him act before. And not that this was like, Chekhov or anything like that, but I thought he was really good. And it reminded me a lot again, of Parks and Rec, when you would bring in people that I knew for comedy to do these fun, quirky characters. I really hope we see Todd again, you know, and his lizard. Is that a lizard?

[Rob Mahoney]

There's an iguana.

[Jordan Robinson]

Iguana, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

She has wondered. She has wondered. 50.

[Jordan Robinson]

I thought he was so funny. I thought he was really good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's the thing. He is very funny and, like, in a vacuum. I really like those scenes. I would say of all the actors and characters we've seen so far, he felt the least of Widow's Bay to me. There was something about it that was like. And it's drawn and structured to be like, this is a distinct hallucinogenic experience throughout this episode. But something about his energy was just, like, a little different. Not in an unwelcome way, but distinct from the other townspeople, maybe deliberately.

[Jordan Robinson]

Follow up question. Have you met anyone who calls himself a shaman?

[Rob Mahoney]

Not enough. Other than you.

[Jordan Robinson]

I've never once referred to myself as a shaman. Nor would I.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you're a big shaman on this podcast, literally, what are you

[Jordan Robinson]

in the Bay Area tech capital of the world, where a bunch of white dudes walk around calling themselves shaman in order to serve you Ayahuasca. Like, I've met so many white guys named Todd who are. I am a shaman. Come have an ayahuasca ceremony in my rec room. Like, it's. It's a peril of the North Bay, I should say.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have not partaken, but, I mean, nor have I. Speaking to our issues of control.

[Jordan Robinson]

I'm not doing ayahuasca.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no, no. But I would love to be somebody's spirit guide or just, you know, a hand to hold on their journey, you know?

[Jordan Robinson]

Would you do a better job than Patricia?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would hope. I would hope and pray.

[Jordan Robinson]

Don't open the door.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't open the door. They. I mean, they just abandoned Tom so quickly at every opportunity.

[Jordan Robinson]

Patricia at least had the excuse of, like, shooting. She's, like, wanted for questioning. You know what I mean? Like, she cannot say no to that. But, like, leaving him with Dale, presumably not telling Dale what's going on.

[Rob Mahoney]

Dale has no idea, and he's very worried for understandable reasons.

[Jordan Robinson]

When he screams, it's really good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why can't Tom just go home? He's sick today, you know? Is that out of the realm of possibility?

[Jordan Robinson]

That's why they put him in the car with Rosemary. But again, I would not put him in a car with Rosemary.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I don't think anyone put him in the car with Rosemary.

[Jordan Robinson]

Really?

[Rob Mahoney]

Cause it takes. If I remember correctly, it takes place after. Not to step on our future segments, but my favorite bit of physical comedy From Matthew Rhys, which is the slow way he slinks across the wall and then bolts out the front door.

[Jordan Robinson]

But Patricia's still tethered to him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are they literally tethered at that point in time?

[Jordan Robinson]

He just jerked out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe he separated. I don't know.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, I think he jerks her out, and she's like, we're too busy. Put him in a car with Rosemary and take him home. But that's not what I would do with Tom if I were in charge.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just assumed he popped up in the middle of the road, and Rosemary's like, okay, here, here, let me take you home.

[Jordan Robinson]

I also want to shout out Patricia before they go over to Todd Oconnors shaman den. And can I just say that his. I forget what he called it.

[Rob Mahoney]

The, like, the peace Center.

[Jordan Robinson]

Peace Center.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's fudgeing. Perfect.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's what, like, every rec room that a white guy named Todd who's, like, come to Ayahuasca at my house. Like, that's what it looks.

[Rob Mahoney]

A single lava lamp, one magic guy, and a mattress with some loose blankets and an iguana.

[Jordan Robinson]

When Tom blows the phone call to him and they have Patricia do it, and she essentially does the Han Solo, like, we're all fine here. How are you?

[Rob Mahoney]

Fore conversation, anyway.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, really funny. Really good. Anything else? You want to shut up before we get to our categories again?

[Rob Mahoney]

I really like this episode. I think it just has the unfortunate placement of coming after four. Yeah. And so I love a trip episode, as we discussed. In general, I love what this means for Tom and kind of like the weird, creepy, dark places we explore as a result of it. And it's. I mean, it's certainly setting up a lot of pretty dark roads we can go down over the rest of the season.

[Jordan Robinson]

I thought the fight with Evan was really good. Like, that's a real fight that they're having inside of this episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's being like, a real dick. Evan, this is an age where you just have the hardest time seeing outside yourself in general. But he knows that. Like, he knows enough to say, like, hey, didn't your friend just die? But also is being like, a real asshole to his dad specifically.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's the only line delivery from this actor that I'm like. I would have had him say it slightly more sympathetically because him being, like, a real shit and being like, is this how the phone's work? Perfect. And really funny.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very funny.

[Jordan Robinson]

But, like, wasn't he your friend, like, said with, like, a little bit of a grin was very weird. That being said, you're trying to impress an off island girl.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

And I have some theories about these off island girls, by the way, but you're trying to impress an off island girl and your dad comes up and does the. This.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe I spoke too soon about the physical comedy because that.

[Jordan Robinson]

All the way around the outside of the car.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

I would. I would say fuck you to my dad if. If I were like stewing in that mortification.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you knew he was grieving. If you knew his. His. Maybe his only friend just died.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Jordan Robinson]

If I'm a teenager and I'm embarrassed. Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's fair.

[Jordan Robinson]

There's nothing stronger than burning shame. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by Weathertech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weathertech floor liners in the summer. Unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those Weathertech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today.

[Jordan Robinson]

See what I mean? All right, well, let's go to our categories which will allow us to talk even a little bit more about these episodes before we head out of here. Best bit of lore. Got a lot of lore again. These are like incredibly short, funny, dense episodes while. And we're getting lore downloads as we go. What did we learn that you thought was most interesting?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's got to be Sarah Westcott Warren's creepy diary. And I mean Jeffrey just plugging it right back in. Torn page and all incredible work. But you and I have been talking about. Are we gonna get a full on flashback episode with how much like the founders have been mentioned? Maybe even more than the boogeyman. It seems like we're gonna get some glimpse of that life in that past eventually.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think we saw. So the opening of episode five.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

Is a grubby man in what looks to me like period clothing in the woods scrabbling for. That's not Toby Huss like scrabbling for

[Rob Mahoney]

some mushrooms in the snow.

[Jordan Robinson]

In the snow.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't eat the spooky mushrooms.

[Jordan Robinson]

Or if you want LASIK for your third eye, eat the spooky mushrooms.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. It doesn't seem worth it.

[Jordan Robinson]

I wouldn't do it. But I would be interested in someone else doing it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

Already wide open. I'm good on the mushroom front.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, it's not going back through the footage. I think that's Hamish Linklater, who I. Who is in this season and based on portraiture, I believe is playing the founder, Richard Warren. So, like, the next episode is called Our History. I would not be surprised if it takes us into a flashback episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

It certainly seems like it. I mean, we already have, you know, the weird cylinder around his neck. What do you think is going to be?

[Jordan Robinson]

It's heartbeats in the cylinder my husband wears around his neck. And then when she's like, but he's here, so. Jk lol. I'm going to bed. Really funny heartbeats in the cylinder. Are they going to dig him up?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, that's the implication from Wick. That's what Wick wants to do for sure. Let's just dig up this grave. Let's get in that cylinder. Let's see what's going on.

[Jordan Robinson]

The idea of the true sight with the mushrooms, I also want to shout out in the spell book, once its true face is revealed, the sea hag is in there. So, like, I'm glad we broke the spell by burning the book. But also, was there good information in that book that we could have used before?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, you want to use it for good?

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean, I'll. It'll be fine, Rob. I'm very responsible, not at all emotionally vulnerable to manipulation. I'll be fine.

[Rob Mahoney]

The last segment of this podcast is you outlining what you like and don't like about yourself.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's one line for like, and it's 10 lines for don't like, don't worry about it. And then the boogeyman intel. Anything else you want to say on the lore?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's the biggest stuff for me is mostly what's going on with the diary and what it's positioning for us as far as, like, grave robbing goes.

[Jordan Robinson]

Favorite city employee.

[Rob Mahoney]

How is it not Patricia literally every week.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, but if it's not Patricia.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think if it's not Patricia, it has to be Rosemary.

[Jordan Robinson]

Tell me why it's Rosemary this week for you.

[Rob Mahoney]

She wants to be supportive, but she has a few qualms.

[Jordan Robinson]

She's a scratcher lady. Like, nothing could be more true than Rosemary loves a scratcher. I love that, like, Tom caused horrible damage inside the gas station.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's banned for life.

[Jordan Robinson]

She said something about driving the car again. So the way in which the car is, like, at an angle and the door is wide open and stuff like, that seems like it was Tom based, but she's still gonna get her scratcher time in, like, not to be deterred.

[Rob Mahoney]

The money's not gonna win itself.

[Jordan Robinson]

Exactly. I'm gonna give it to Dale. Shout out, dale for the DJing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

And then, I mean, spoiler alert for my, like, favorite spook or haunt or scare fright. Dale with the blacked out eyes, the mismatched audio, and I think that Jeff Hiller has an incredible face, and I think he did something, like, super weird with his tongue to make him look, like, especially horrifying.

[Rob Mahoney]

It wasn't even mismatched audio. It was like he was doing a weird tongue thing, but also just, like, not speaking at all.

[Jordan Robinson]

Haunting.

[Rob Mahoney]

Horrifying.

[Jordan Robinson]

Horrifying. So I'm giving it to dale. Between the DJing and that, those two

[Rob Mahoney]

characters, I think just in terms of temperament and personality, they've had very limited screen time over the course of this season. But when you think about who would be going along for the ride, as Patricia is like, get me these dead crows. And also, here's 900 songs with which to DJ this party. It's like Dale is just like, go along to get along enough to want to partake in it. And Rosemary is just kind of like, gruff and mildly annoyed enough that she would do it anyway.

[Jordan Robinson]

But also, she's like, she knows the sea hag lore. Like, Rosemary knows a lot. Is like, locked Tom in that room.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, she knows a lot.

[Rob Mahoney]

Getting that crawl space.

[Jordan Robinson]

She's seen a lot. She cannot. Cannot phase her. No, she's just seen too much. So if you put a. A headdress on with some antlers, the

[Rob Mahoney]

headpiece reveal is so good. Wonderful.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's so good when you rewatch and she's like, I'd consider. Headpiece is like what she says to refer to the tiara. And it's just a perfect word choice because, like, I was like, yeah, get that dumb fucking tiara off your head.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, especially when Chris and the mean girls are, like, mocking her. I was like, what does she have on her head?

[Jordan Robinson]

It's a tiara.

[Rob Mahoney]

Turns out it's not. Well, it is a vocabulary. Just a little more antlered than you might expect.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's a little more yellow jacket, antler queen stuff. Okay. Favorite obvious joke.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's the rhythm of the night.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean, the way it comes back in on that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on. It comes back for the credits. Like, it is an incredible choice. And honestly, like, does have a certain witchy power to it.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, it's a bop.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's an absolute bop. I don't know what, like Corona and all of them were channeling when they wrote it and created in the first place. But it has. It has a certain power. It has a certain, like, you think

[Jordan Robinson]

there were bone fragments in their mortar and pestle when they wrote that song.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the entire wave of like Euro house music that permeated the United States specifically and the 90s all feels mythical to me.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think also. Yeah, it's like got that chanting quality. The same way that earlier he plays let's Dance. David Bowie, right? So like, you know, which is just like an invocation of kind. David Bowie could have been a witch. I would support it probably was Patricia. For me, Patricia's circling her shoulders first in the drawing in the book.

[Rob Mahoney]

Straight to the shoulders.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's like, what is that a posture? I need to like, you know, work on my posture. Is that a posture comment? I don't know. And then she just circles like nine other things. But it's just like starting with the shoulders is really funny to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, we all have things we hate about ourselves, but specifically people who have been so locked in on their shoulders. Or I'll hear people be like, oh, my God, I hate my calves. I'm like, I mean, no offense.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, it's often because someone has said something to you once ever. It's probably Chris and like forever. Like, my earlobes are larger than other people's earlobes. Oh, no. Okay. Favorite throwaway joke.

[Rob Mahoney]

This one's a real throwaway, but it made me laugh a lot. And it's when the janitor comes into city hall during Tom's trip and says, oh, somebody's got a full belly. You had a lot of tea today. To the trash can.

[Jordan Robinson]

So funny.

[Rob Mahoney]

It doesn't apologize. Just like, it's like, oh, are you okay? I didn't know. I didn't know you were here.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, really funny. Really, really good. This is less of like a throwaway joke and I guess more of like a delivery. But again, shout out, Dale. Shout out Jeff Hilton. When Patricia asks how many RSVPs are. And he hands her a piece of paper and she's like, there are zero. You could have just said zero. And he just says very faintly, I didn't want to. I didn't want to.

[Rob Mahoney]

People pleaser. Dale doing his best, even in a dark moment. I have like 50 honorable mentions for this.

[Jordan Robinson]

I also, hit me, please.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's ridiculous. I think the illustrations in the self help book about the perfect Party was all like the people having the time of their lives, dressed in exquisite cocktail attire and then there's a giant pile of cocaine on the table. Well, you know, it's what facilitates these things. The shoulders, of course, the speed with which Patricia shoves her fingers straight down Tom's throat when he wants to purge the mushrooms. Like no hesitation whatsoever. This is why you need a Patricia in your life. You need that person in your corner.

[Jordan Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

What else do you have, Joe?

[Jordan Robinson]

Lucy Fors is the name of the author of the book. There's also four corners. Like a little illustration of the four corners on the front of the, of the book when it's in self help mode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Even just out with the old, in with the youth. I would love to see the whiteboard of alternative self help books that they

[Jordan Robinson]

came up with in episode five when they're. When Tom checks in on the funeral and you're just hearing this guy tell this anecdote. And afterwards someone says, just a reminder, it's not mandatory that you speak. It's not similarly sort of off camera when Patricia's trying to get people to stay at the party and she's like, I'm sure the Doctor has some fun, like medical stories. And he's like, I'm off the clock. And then Ruth chimes in. She's like, I have one. It started in the point.

[Rob Mahoney]

I also, I also wrote this down. Ruth again is just batting a thousand. Every time she pops up, every time she be like, yeah, I'm going home at three. I'm sorry.

[Jordan Robinson]

Ruth Rosemary Dale. Like, what a crew. Iconic.

[Rob Mahoney]

The only other one I had was when Patricia is crying in the kitchen and someone busts in and she turns it into a fake yawn to try to hide her crying.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's some like, next level babadooking, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is it?

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. To cover your cry with a, with a yawn.

[Rob Mahoney]

What should you cover it with? What's the appropriate thing?

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, she's right at the fridge. I would do just like whip the door of the fridge open and like Mrs. Doubtfire my way through it. You know what I mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just imagining her with the full antler regalia attempting to do the Kryon and this woman's like, what would you

[Jordan Robinson]

have wanted to get? Like a full sort of flash through the. I mean, like thinking about it would have been funny, I guess. The whole town is wired for video surveillance. Interesting. But like the reveal of Patricia sitting at that cctv. Yeah, yeah. Sitting at the table reading the grimoire until like four in the morning or whatever. But like to see the grimoire in her hands or to see the antlers, you know, like to. To rewatch the episode, we should say, just in case people are like, you missed it. Or. We didn't. We didn't. During the dance in the bar, there's like in the mirror and then one shot of everyone standing there with their mouth open. I just wanted to say it so people were like, did you miss this? We did not miss that.

[Rob Mahoney]

What is it that's so fundamentally creepy about people with their open maws? You know, it's just. It's scary in a way I can't articulate and I don't really know why.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's like, to me, it goes back to like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. That's like a body snatcher. Like the point in the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, very. The faculty too, where it's like all the tentacly things coming out.

[Jordan Robinson]

Honestly, you're with us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Always. Always, always.

[Jordan Robinson]

All right, Favorite horror movie reference, slash Easter egg for this.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's sort of the subversion of our expectations around Reverend Bright, where when he's introduced into the story, specifically as Tom's friend, it's like, I think one of two things is gonna happen. Either he will be the one to give Wick and Tom and their crew the download on, like, either severely or maniacally, what is happening on the island. Here's the history, here's what I have discovered. Or he will perform at least one exorcism. But no, he gets the chance to do none of those things at a commission. Another terrifying visual of him having hung himself or just be hung on the back of the door.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it just the idea that it makes you wonder, like, what could this man have possibly seen that would lead him to this end? Maybe even enough to want to take some spooky mushrooms yourself just to find out.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. What do you see down that well?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't want to know what he saw down the well.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think it's going to come back for me. I have nothing better than our listeners suggestion of Patricia's wardrobe. I think the Carrie Shelley Duvall, sort of like invocation there. All right. Best haunt. Scare, spook or fright. I already said it was Dale with his blacked out eyes and unsynced voice or not synced at all. What do you have for me?

[Rob Mahoney]

It is whatever is happening with Lauren and that very brief visual we get of her after she's been brought in and seen by the doctor. Maybe still with child, maybe Evan's already been born. But it's like her sitting on the bed mute and vacant and kind of possessed at the same time is just like.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think her head is just like a slight horror movie angle.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was shocked to see that this actress, Meredith Casey, who I think is also a comedian, does not have an extensive acting history because she has, like, popped up again in a hallucinogenic dead wife sort of way, mostly to date. But this is a physical performance even in that split second. That I think is just the creepiest image that the show has shown us so far. Very tough, very impressive, very scary. I am terrified of everything that it portends.

[Jordan Robinson]

We did ask for a listener suggestion for categories, and though I did a not officially like, add any, our listener faith suggested creepiest blink and you'll miss it moment.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's probably the reflections, I would think.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right? I was thinking it was reflections, but also in episode four, when Patricia first brings the book home, she puts it on her bedside table and she puts her mug of tea on top of it. And then she goes to, like, do something, and when she. And it's just like, all one shot. And when she comes back into frame, the mug of tea is no longer on top of the book in a sort of like, read me kind of way. The book is like, get this mug of tea out.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not a coaster.

[Jordan Robinson]

I'm not a coaster. Read me. I thought that was a really cool moment.

[Rob Mahoney]

I also like her reading the book at the picnic table and all the bikes colliding around her.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. The bikes breaking out. New England's best kept secret. A moment where you thought, huh, Would it actually be nice to live here?

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, so the circumstances were not ideal.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the bonfire on the beach, that could have been really nice. That could have been a really nice time.

[Jordan Robinson]

I really.

[Rob Mahoney]

Cocktails at Patricia's.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

A nice little dance and hang and then off to the beach for a bonfire.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a wonderful night.

[Jordan Robinson]

I have a marketing note for Patricia.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Jordan Robinson]

If you are not, no fault of your own, perhaps the most popular person

[Rob Mahoney]

on the island, don't put it on the invite.

[Jordan Robinson]

Don't say cocktails with Patricia.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

Just say suntel cocktails. Like, you know, come have some drinks on us. The. The town.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Jordan Robinson]

Free drinks. Sure. It's animal blood. But, like, I wouldn't say cocktails with Patricia.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

When Chris is like, you be the municipal event.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, here's the thing. Who are you fooling? Like, they know that she works at city Hall. They know that she would be involved. Could be.

[Jordan Robinson]

Drinks with Dale is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is. I mean, with all due respect to Dale, is Dale any more popular than Patricia is? Yeah, maybe.

[Jordan Robinson]

So the Reese piece. Something about Matthew Rhys that you want to shout out here. Comedy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Episode five is ridiculous. A ridiculous showcase for Matthew Reese trying

[Jordan Robinson]

to make himself vomit when he can't. He's just like, it's really funny.

[Rob Mahoney]

Really incredible. I mean, he's basically like Charlie Chaplin in this episode. Like the physical comedy beats like the wide eyed, like wonder and terror at everything happening around him. The absolutely possessed way that he lunges for his loafer in the convenience store. As Amber is the color of your

[Jordan Robinson]

energy plays which comes back at the closing credits. I love that amber is the color of your energy plays. Yeah, the way he looks into the car. Say goodnight to little miss was really funny. His clapping during the meeting with the townspeople was so strange. I was like, try to analyze, like, why does this look so strange? He's just incredible.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's a master.

[Jordan Robinson]

The root of the matter. What is Steven Root doing this episode that you want to.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Wick and Jer.

[Jordan Robinson]

Little history kept me out too late.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, they had something going on and maybe what's old is new again. You know, I think. I think they could have it. Especially if Jer is going to be part of the gang and helping them investigate some spooky artifacts. Honestly, I love seeing a version of Wick that is still kooky and driven and weird.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But him getting to be like Spirit Detective Wick. Different side of him. That I really appreciated.

[Jordan Robinson]

I will say Wick and Jer shot to the top of my ship. Like if Patricia and Tom are on the shipping list, for me, it's like Wick and Jared.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who else is on the list?

[Jordan Robinson]

Like Evan and the off island girl who might be also the Sea Hag. I don't know. Like, I don't know. Who are these off island girls? Who are they?

[Rob Mahoney]

They're just off island girls.

[Jordan Robinson]

They could be.

[Rob Mahoney]

But like Joe, not every girl is a hag.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean, something to aspire to.

[Rob Mahoney]

So the shipping list. I mean, yeah, there's Tom and Patricia. We addressed that. I think a lot of people probably will be invested in that one. Tom's face and the Sea Hag potentially returning. Who's to say what those kids could get up to?

[Jordan Robinson]

Tom and his dead ghost wife.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, anything is possible on this island. She could return in many terrifying forms.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And we're rooting for them.

[Jordan Robinson]

We are. We want those two crazy kids to work it out. Right, Evan. Here's what I'll say about Evan. Yeah. And. And you were right to call out that, like. Wasn't he your friend? The press a button. What's the system? Delivery was like, really funny about the phone.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incredibly funny.

[Jordan Robinson]

But when. When Tom says, I see you calculating how much you can get away with. Which this actor had to convey with just a look. And he really did.

[Rob Mahoney]

He does.

[Jordan Robinson]

He really, really nailed it. I just think he's fantastic. I think he's so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

His physical comedic performance has been great all season. He also did the exact thing that I remember doing when I was a kid and went into my dad's. I open every drawer and we found in one of my dad's drawers, like, a couple of candy bars. And we're like, he has a candy drawer in here.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, you say we. It's you and your brother.

[Rob Mahoney]

Me and my brother both going through it simultaneously. That's the kind of bit of family lore you just never let down.

[Jordan Robinson]

I went through everything in my parents closet, like, constantly.

[Rob Mahoney]

How could you not? You just got to see what's going on in there. But we're omitting what is the clear Evan contribution of these episodes. While I'm walking away, can I just yell, fuck you, pig for the girls? Because here, Joe, on this podcast, we always say, fuck you, pig for the girls.

[Jordan Robinson]

We really do. We do. But she's being like, no, the fuck you cannot. Kevin Carroll's really good on this show. All right, theory. My only theory is these off island girls. I'm looking askance, really.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, a single girl shows up in the story, and it must be her fault.

[Jordan Robinson]

Who are they? I think it's their fault. But who are they?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true. They don't seem to have parents. They don't have any reason that they've explained for being there. I mean, granted, well, they're here for the holiday.

[Jordan Robinson]

Granted that it's only been two days. Like, when I thought it was like a week. You know what I mean? When I thought it was like the first and the fourth or something like that, I'm like, how long are these girls here on this island? But if it's just been a couple days, like, okay, I think it's only

[Rob Mahoney]

been a couple of days. And we live in a world now where this is the new Martha's Vineyard. People are just showing up.

[Jordan Robinson]

If it was just infuriating in the fireworks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. If it was just old Widow's Bay.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

The off island girls are not showing up. But they're showing up here for the fireworks, and those fireworks are going to happen.

[Jordan Robinson]

And they did. And they did. All right. Anything else you want to say about Widow's Bay?

[Rob Mahoney]

Just one more thing, Joe. The sacred geometry of outlining your hand on a piece of paper. A great recurring gag in episode five. And specifically, I would say how seriously Patricia ponders the drawing in the first place really made it for me.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, also then just the cut to the fact that Tom was doing the same thing. Right. Also, it made me think of you because very recently you invoked hand turkeys.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did. Would you like to explain why?

[Jordan Robinson]

Would you like to explain why?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would. I was wearing, you know, a warm colored orange shirt on this couch, was surrounded by these very tasteful pillows that are here at Spotify Studios. And I was looking a little like a hand turkey with my plumage. So, you know, it's just. It's been in the ether over here.

[Jordan Robinson]

Sometimes you're the babadook, sometimes you're the hand turkey. You know, these are the realities.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you to Mary, Chief and Carpenter for supporting this episode.

[Jordan Robinson]

All right, well, that is it for episodes four and five of Widow's Bay. We'll be back for Euphoria. We'll be back with Friday Night Lights and more Widows Bay. Thank you to Dev Ronaldo, Jacob Cornette, to everyone at Sycamore Studios, to Kai Grady from afar. He's in Texas. And.

[Rob Mahoney]

And thank you to the many blackbirds who died to make this episode possible.

[Jordan Robinson]

And thank you to the witches. And thank you to you, Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you, Joe.

[Jordan Robinson]

In that order. Bye,

[Rob Mahoney]

Foreign.

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[Rob Mahoney]

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[Rob Mahoney]

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