Li Jia Zhang (2:54)

Right, okay. The Chinese zodiac runs on a 12 year lunar cycle with each year associated with animals like rat, ox, dragon. So I think what makes the Chinese zodiac more interesting and richer it is that it combines with five elements, the five essential elements like wood, fire, earth, metal and water. This creates a six year cycle. So this year is the Fire Horse known as Bing Wu. It appears, as I said, every six years.

Alice Han (3:34)

And what are the characteristics of the Fire Horse year? Doing some reading. You read a lot about how it's a year of volatility, turbulence, but also boldness in action. How would you characterize Fire Horse years and babies that are born in the year of the Fire Horse?

Li Jia Zhang (3:50)

So according to the Chinese traditional belief, the Fire Horse has long been associated with turbulence and dramatic change. You know, fire can mean energy renewal, but also it can mean destruction. So quite a lot of people now in China now are in breath for some turbulence ahead and hopefully some drastic or dramatic changes.

Alice Han (4:18)

It's very interesting. I have more questions related to that, but I want to take it back to everyday Chinese people. You know, growing up Chinese in Australia, my parents would put up the upside down Fu sign, the prosperity sign, and they'd have the Chun Lian as well, the spring couplets. But maybe tell us how everyday Chinese people celebrate the New Year and what will make this new year different.

Li Jia Zhang (4:40)

Do you think I should. First of all, I should say that the Chinese New Year is the most important festival in the whole year, especially the reunion dinner on the New Year's Eve. So that's a time for the family have dinner together, which is why people will travel all over. You know, many Chinese people now don't leave their hometowns. They will before the Chinese New Year. They will try to rush back home to have this. So, yes, so it's the most important festival and it's a festival for the family, family reunion. So when I was young, I really lived for the Chinese New Year. As you said, you mentioned about the symbol. The symbol is the character Fu, which means both happiness and fortune. So you put it upside down, which means Fu Dao, the happiness has arrived. Yeah.

Alice Han (5:40)

Related to that, I'm seeing in social media, people have pictures of Draco Malfoy, the Harry Potter character, because in Chinese his name is Ma Fu, which is good fortune and horse, those characters. I've seen pictures of it quite viral in China, of upside down Malfoys on people's doors, which is, I think a contemporary interpretation of the Chinese New Year. I wanted to ask You. For the Chinese who live outside of China, are there different ways in which they celebrate the New Year?

Li Jia Zhang (6:12)

There are different ways. Our fundamental ways are the same. You know, the reunion dinner, the cooking, the feast. Yes, I think fundamentally things are the same, except that when you live abroad, it's a little bit harder to get the ingredients. When I was growing up, I really lived for the Chinese New Year because that was the only time we as children could have enjoyed the meat and other good food without restriction. And Alice, I guess you are too young. As I was growing up in China, China was still very, very poor. And everything was rationed. All the basic goods, for example meat, rice, eggs, cooking oil, everything was rationed. We could probably eat meat three or four times every month and each time we could have only tiny amount. But before the Chinese New Year, the work unit Dan Wei, my mother worked for Stado Enterprise, would allocate some good food like ham, eggs to workers. So that was the time we could have enjoyed lots of good food. So I always, always looked forward to the Chinese New Year.

Alice Han (7:36)

It's interesting you say that my mother has similar memories. You know, when she was nine years old, she would line up at the rationing queues to get your little apportionment or ration of meat and rice for the day. And I just remember her being only just nine years old by herself, going to and queuing up for food. This was a time I believe it would have been still the 70s. But that shows you how much China has changed.

Li Jia Zhang (8:00)

Yes, I think of the New Year, the Trinity at the Spring Festival was so enjoyable. We were so looking forward to it, but also because we have to make a contribution. And I was a child, I remember since I was very young, my parents would send me to go out to queuing up for hours. We had to get up really early, queue up for hours, just for a few vegetables. So you see how China has changed.

Alice Han (8:32)

Yeah. My mother would guilt trip me anytime I didn't wake up on time. And she said as a nine year old, she'd have to wake up at 4am or 5am and queue for hours to even get access to food.

Li Jia Zhang (8:41)

Yes, same here.

Alice Han (8:44)

Yeah. So times have changed. Let's take it a little bit in the direction of superstitions. I think people in the west look at the zodiac and wonder to what extent they're like horoscopes in Western culture. Do everyday people in China believe that this is superstition or is it part of the cultural tradition? Does it influence the way in which they make financial Decisions or get into marriages or have babies.

Li Jia Zhang (9:09)

I think it's an interesting question. The Chinese would say, don't believe it. You cannot believe it. Totally. Yeah. So I think when people making financial decisions, they will probably take into consideration. For example, for me, if I want to have a risky investment, thinking this year, Fire Horse, maybe a turbulent year, probably I wouldn't do that.

Alice Han (9:35)

Yeah, Some people who are investing will probably listen to that and maybe take that into account. But it's good to know. What about in terms of marriage and having children, is this a good year to be getting into both endeavors?

Li Jia Zhang (9:48)

Probably not the best year.

Alice Han (9:50)

And why is that?

Li Jia Zhang (9:51)

Yes, because this year is. I think some people will try to. Not everybody, but some people will probably will try to avoid wedding and such because things are unpredictable. Marriage is already a difficult enterprise to run. So you want to have a good, stable starting point.

Alice Han (10:16)

But then the next year, the Goat year is also considered unlucky as well. Right?

Li Jia Zhang (10:21)

A little bit. But for the Fire Horse, if something happens, supposedly quite dramatic.

Alice Han (10:27)

Very interesting. Let's talk about history. What I found so interesting is 1966 was the last time we had a Fire Horse year. This was the start of the Cultural Revolution, which was one of the most turbulent periods in Chinese history, lasted almost a decade. Tell us a little bit about how Chinese history has been impacted by the Fire Horse years and whether or not people in China believe there is a connection between historical political instability and the Fire Horse years.

Li Jia Zhang (10:54)

I've noticed that there have been quite a lot of discussion on social media about this upcoming year of Fire Horse. And quite a lot of people have pointed out that 60 years ago, the camps around the Fire Horse, Bing Wu Nian comes around every six years. Last time was a Cultural Revolution, a mad political movement launched by Chairman Mao. It lasted for 10 years. During that time, millions of people have injured some, many died and the family broken up. The economy was pushed to the brink of collapse. So it was a total disaster. And then the six years before that, 1906 just happened to be another extremely turbulent year. That was end of the Qing Dynasty was standing on its last leg. And in that year, apart from the political tension, China suffered terrible floods. Some 25 million people were believed to have died. So I'm taking this into consideration. So quite a lot of people now feel a bit wary about this coming year.

Alice Han (12:10)

Very, very interesting. Well, we're going to take a quick break to stay with us.

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Alice Han (15:10)

Welcome back. China's birth rate has been in decline for years, despite the end of the one child policy and government incentives to have more children. But zodiac years do matter. Some years see baby booms, especially dragon years. The horse is associated with strength and prosperity, and the fire horse with ambition and dynamism. Now, Lijia, we talked briefly about whether or not it was a good time to marry or have children in the year of the fire horse. But what's interesting to me is the way in which, and I certainly experienced it growing up. Parents engineer the births of their children based around auspicious years. And I know growing up that a dragon is considered to be very lucky, unfortunate.

Li Jia Zhang (15:52)

I was born a dragon year. I'm a dragon lady.

Alice Han (15:55)

You are a dragon lady. I'm sure that that wasn't a coincidence and certainly it's part of your success. But tell us a little bit about why parents in China care so much about auspicious zodiac years and which years are considered auspicious?

Li Jia Zhang (16:12)

Well, just simply because the older generation, they take the traditional biv more seriously and the younger generation are less so, I guess. And also I think in China, family is extremely important. And parents always, they bring up the children. They also feel they are entitled to have a say in their children's life. I mean, the west is much less so now I live in London. I certainly wouldn't dare to tell my children to do this or that. Like the way my mother was, you know, used to hustle me to get married and so on.

Alice Han (17:00)

And which years do you think are considered lucky years? We obviously established that Dragon year is a very lucky year. You're a dragon. Are there other years? I'm a rooster. Personally, I feel like that's a mixed bag. But are there other years that particularly lucky?

Li Jia Zhang (17:14)

Yes, I think of all the animal years are mixed back. For example, the dragon year can be really powerful. This person, very strong, powerful. But they also can be destructive. I hope that's not my case. I think Dragon year probably is the best one. But people always find something positive to say about each animal year. People born different animal year.

Alice Han (17:41)

So I'm consuming a lot of Chinese zodiac information through social media, I have to admit, through douyin and Instagram. And what's interesting to me is that the sort of conflicting narratives about whether or not fire horse years are good for women. So some people say that daughters who are born in the fire horse year is considered too strong and unlucky in Marriage. Other people are saying that fire horse years are good for females. Career development. Women really progress in fire horse years. I've been sharing this a lot with my female friends to encourage them in their careers. Tell me about the stigma or the stereotypes of fire horse women and whether or not fire horse years are in fact good for women.

Li Jia Zhang (18:19)

I think in China, as in the rest of the world, some men just don't like a woman with a strong personality.

Alice Han (18:28)

It's a universal thing, unfortunately.

Li Jia Zhang (18:30)

Yeah. So a woman born by horse, a year of dragons, supposed to have strong personality that can potentially put some people off, put some men off.

Alice Han (18:42)

So one other thing related to the government's incentives to try to have, you know, women to have more children. And we've talked about this previously. You know, you grew up in China and you probably witnessed some of the one child policy, but you've also grown up in the West. How do you think about this birth issue in China? You know, there's so many different ways to look at it. Marriage rates are declining, fertility rates are declining. How do you see this issue?

Li Jia Zhang (19:07)

I'm glad you asked the question because that's the issue I'm very interested in. In fact, when I went to China last year, I interviewed tons of people with the idea to write a book about a changing attitude towards marriage and motherhood. As you know that the birth rate is decline, the rate of marriage is declined and divorce is rising. I think that pattern actually fits into the pattern of the developed country. Generally speaking, when a society develops, when women get a good education, good jobs, the fertility rate goes down because women want to live their lives, they want to live life on their own terms. And I think this is particularly driven by urban educated women. They do not see marriage or motherhood as the necessary ingredients for a happy, fulfilling life. They want to do their own things, they want to travel, they want to be free and they want to pursue their career. And particularly in China, as you know, China is not particularly for married women. There's still a lot of discrimination against married women in workplace, which is why you see that the birth rate is declined. I think many ways the economy is the best contraception.

Alice Han (20:31)

The economy is the best contraception. I'm going to have to use that line. That's a great line.

Li Jia Zhang (20:35)

Feel free.

Alice Han (20:37)

Well, yeah. On that note, you know, I think people in the west are very curious about what feminism looks like or female empowerment looks like. Can you tell us a little bit about how that's evolved over time? Certainly women have gotten richer, they're having better Careers. But I also think that what's interesting to me to see when I look at the trajectories of women in business in China compared to say Korea or Japan, in China we see the highest number of female self made billionaires. Now obviously you have to factor in the size of the population, but it seems like there's a lot of social, cultural support for females in business.

Li Jia Zhang (21:14)

Yes, absolutely. Half of the world's self made women, the top ten half of them come from China. So that's the area that women can show their strengths because that area depends less on other people. So I think Chinese women are brilliant, very enterprising. I think today, today's young woman, they are far more assertive compared to the older generation. They want to live their life to the full. They want to live the life on their own terms. And they're also willing to put down their feet. And sometimes they flatly reject their parents request for them to get married. Sometimes they found some tricks. For example, have you heard this new business for renting boyfriend or girlfriend?

Alice Han (22:03)

I've heard about this, yes.

Li Jia Zhang (22:06)

So the Chinese New Year time. So anyway, children were, they live in Beijing, big cities in Beijing, Shanghai. And then they go to their hometown for the spring festival and they are supposed to bring their girlfriends or boyfriends so they don't have one. So sometime to fool their parents, they will rent. They will rent a girlfriend or a boyfriend to go home to shoe their parents.

Alice Han (22:32)

Oh wow. Yeah, I could see that happening. And in a way that can't be disrupted by AI because they physically need to bring back somebody to their hometown. That's very interesting. You also see this trope in Chinese social media. And I also hear this amongst my Guimi, my friends, my good friends in China of successful older women professionally dating much younger men.

Li Jia Zhang (22:53)

Yeah, Xiao Xiorou.

Alice Han (22:55)

Yes, exactly. Have you been following this?

Li Jia Zhang (22:58)

Yes. So you know, some young men, still older women as more experienced, more interesting, they have a lot more to offer. And also they probably have more money. The guys don't have all the pressure to pay for them. Some of them probably will enjoy some free meals.

Alice Han (23:20)

Yes, it certainly changes this culture of Dan and Zhuy in China. You know, chauvinism which did exist. If you look back to a really pre revolutionary, pre CCP China, Chinese culture was very patriarchal. And yet I feel now there's quite a strong female element to Chinese society. At least I see this personally.

Li Jia Zhang (23:43)

Yes, I have found the whole thing so interesting. So officially a feminist movement has died, supposedly, you know, because all the online media forms I used to have lots of, I still do have lots of feminist friends. And there were family school. I went to the China's first family school. I was graduated of China's first family school. And then Richard Anderson voiced the feminist. The online platform was shut down. Lots of feminist related NGOs were shut down. So the Chinese authorities really don't allow, don't like feminist movement and they blame the Western influence. But the daily feminism exists everywhere and it is growing. Women found interesting ways to push for gender equality. They form informal discussion groups and they help each other. So yes. So ultimately feminist movements has not died in China, it is growing.

Alice Han (24:51)

Well that just reminds me so much of how in China there's always a way to go around regulations. When people had the private tutoring crackdown, I heard stories that wealthy families were bringing in PhD nannies, PhD Bamu to come and teach their children and be effectively a governess or a home tutor. And similarly with the gaming crackdown, young underage kids were just using their grandparents ID on their faces to log into the gaming console. You know, people think that top down and regulatory crackdown can be quite harsh, but oftentimes there is a way in which people obviate the rules.

Li Jia Zhang (25:29)

Yes, that's China for you. There's always a way to get around it.

Alice Han (25:33)

Interesting. All right, we're going to take one last quick break, so stay with us.

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Alice Han (29:01)

Welcome back. The Chinese New Year is the largest annual human migration on earth. This year, China expects a record 9.5 billion passenger trips during the 40 day Spring Festival period, higher than last year's 9.02 billion. Rail travel alone is expected to hit 540 million trips. Aviation, 95 million. And for the first time, the official holiday has been extended to nine days, in part to boost domestic consumption. Li Zha, have you actually been in one of these huge trips to go back to your hometown? Where did you grow up in China?

Li Jia Zhang (29:37)

I grew up in Nanjing. Not far from your hometown, Shanghai? Yes, I grew up there on the banks of the Yangtze River.

Alice Han (29:44)

So did you have to commute at all to go back? Or did you live where your parents lived to go back to New Year's festival later?

Li Jia Zhang (29:52)

I lived in Beijing and I did once, Yes, a couple of times I joined the Chunyu. It was regarded as the largest annual human migration as millions of people who lived away from the hometown rushed back. Yeah, it was just packed and I had friends who helped me to buy tickets. Otherwise very difficult to secure a seat. And the people there ride the motorbikes for 10 hours or something just to get home. Yes, get home. Yes, that still happens. But also people now team up. There are different apps they can team up. I need to go home. From Beijing to Nanjing, for example, anybody wants to join me, so they'll take a chance to drive.

Alice Han (30:41)

It's the ride sharing economy. Yeah, that's great. And so Chinese New Year is always about returning home, spending time with family. How do you think about this idea of massive amounts of Chinese people migrating long distances to go back home? What does that say about the way in which China has urbanized and changed? Because historically you would live closer to home. Really? From the 80s onwards, people start proliferating, moving for university, for jobs. How do you think about that? Sociological movement, really, from the 80s onwards.

Li Jia Zhang (31:15)

So ever since the reform opening up, people were allowed to move from one place to another. So there's no democracy as such, but the personal freedom has increased a great deal. So people were allowed to move away from their hometown and settle whenever where they could find opportunity. So yes. So China has become more mobile. When the reform started, 70% of the Chinese lived in the countryside. Now it's about, you know, just through a few generations, industrialization has taken place, urbanization. Now probably 70% of people live in the city.

Alice Han (32:02)

You know, I've been following this idea of, you know, the new generation in China, Gen Z, wanting to take it easier. You know, you Hear a lot. Even in the west, this concept of Tangping, you know, lying flat.

Li Jia Zhang (32:12)

Yeah.

Alice Han (32:12)

And some people are deciding they want to move back to the lower tier cities where their parents or grandparents are from and live an easier life where rent and house prices are a little bit lower and they can do local jobs as opposed to really struggling and working hard in the tier one cities. Is that something that you've noticed in your travels back and forth to China?

Li Jia Zhang (32:32)

Of course, it's difficult not to notice that in the Tangping, a character played by the famous actress, he just lies flat there. The reason for that is that social mobility has stagnated. When the reform opening up happened, suddenly there's lots huge amount of opportunity. If you work hard, willing to try, start a new business, more likely you'll be successful. But today, if they even go to university, it's not guaranteed you may find a job. The youth unemployment is very, very high. So the social mobility has narrowed great deal and almost stagnated. So no matter how hard you try, you're probably not going to go far. So that's why some people just decided they had enough. They just pumping, just lying flat, just decide not to try hard. Some of them move back home or some just move back with their parents even. There are some extreme cases that. Have you heard this term called rat? Rat this rat clan. Rats. People live like a rat. They don't stay up late and watching, playing computer game or playing on their phone. And they sleep during the day. They rent a tiny, tiny place. One woman even kind of documented her life as a rat.

Alice Han (34:09)

So they're living sort of nocturnal lives and in small confined spaces. Not working.

Li Jia Zhang (34:15)

Yeah, sometimes in the basement. Just the tiny space. Yeah.

Alice Han (34:18)

Interesting.

Li Jia Zhang (34:19)

So life can be really hard for some young, today's young people. But overall I would say that life has become a great deal easier. Like for example, I remember the Chinese New Year finally. And then my grandma chopping minced, making minced, minced pork. But today you can just buy ready made mince. You can buy ready made dumpling wraps. Yeah, it's easier if you want to make dumpling. But unfortunately so many families don't bother to make the reunion dinner anymore. They go to restaurant, like my sister.

Alice Han (34:56)

They are going to restaurant, they go.

Li Jia Zhang (34:58)

To restaurant, they book a restaurant, they have a 10 course feast or whatever.

Alice Han (35:05)

That's interesting to me because culturally at least growing up it was always something you had at home, the New Year's feast. And my mother would always sort of judge, I shouldn't say this, but my mother would always judge non Chinese people for going out and eating out in restaurants. She didn't consider that to be very familial. So she always said that it's better to do it at home. So that's interesting. It's changed, the culture's changed.

Li Jia Zhang (35:29)

It's also family time. You make the effort. Each person, you know, like we kids, we helped. We got up and buy vegetables. My grandmother stayed up a whole night, cook all the dishes, and you sit down and you enjoy the food together. But that tradition is now dying, it seems, and particularly in big cities, and people cannot be bothered anymore. Just go to. And also another factor is that I mentioned I lived for the Chinese New Year because it's the only time we could eat. And also we could have a hong bao, the Chinese lucky money. And also there will be fireworks.

Alice Han (36:09)

Well, tell us a little bit about that, because maybe not everyone knows, but there are a lot of traditions related to New Year's. I remember as a kid, it was one of my favorite times of the year because I would get money from all my relatives. I'd get cash in the little hong bao, the red envelope. And as a kid, that's kind of what you live for, to replenish your piggy bank. What are some of the traditions in Chinese New Year that are very unique to China?

Li Jia Zhang (36:33)

So that's the. The New year money, New Year lucky money. So often parents will stuff a few coins and put in a red envelope. Because red is a very auspicious color in China. It can supposedly drive away the evil spirit. So the parents will put the New Year lucky money in a red envelope and stuff it under the children's pillow. Bring the children good luck. I loved it. I mean, it was not very much. It's just one or two coins, but it just made me so happy. And also, there's fireworks. So on the New Year's Eve, that's the time for the Chinese reunion dinner at 12 midnight. That's the time to set off fireworks and firecrackers. Oh, my goodness. You should have seen. Have you ever seen it, Alice?

Alice Han (37:27)

Not in person, no. Actually, I mean, in Australia, we never really. I think our neighbors would be annoyed if we launched firecrackers. But I've seen firecrackers in China.

Li Jia Zhang (37:35)

Yeah. As we were growing up. So every year we looked forward to it. And that was just so dramatic. Just imagine millions of family set off firecrackers, fireworks. Same time, the noise was deafening, the sky was on fire. And we just thought, as children, we just thought of something Immense monument was happening, like in the New Year was blasted into existence. That was so exciting.

Alice Han (38:05)

So what was the meaning of the firecrackers in Chinese culture? Why?

Li Jia Zhang (38:09)

Yes, the firecrackers. So according to the legend, you set off firecrackers to welcome the new year. And the loud noise is to drive away the evil spirit, the mythical monster called Mien, as the year. So that's why you let off fireworks, to drive away the evil spirit and welcome the arrival of a new year. So if I think about the Chinese New Year, I remember two sounds. One is the fireworks. Another one is my grandmother chopping with her minced meat.

Alice Han (38:45)

For the dumplings.

Li Jia Zhang (38:46)

For the dumplings, yeah.

Alice Han (38:47)

And what other foods do you have on your menu? I know growing up there were a lot of noodles. There was always a fish dish.

Li Jia Zhang (38:53)

Yeah, there's always a fish dish. Because fish in Chinese is yu, which means surplus. I'm hoping that everything will be in abundance. There will be surplus leftover. So that's fish. Yes. So if you actually don't eat the fish during the New Year dinner, so my grandmother will bring the dish. So see, this is fish. And then she'll put away for later. So if you eat it, there won't be any surplus. So that's a fish dish, but not eaten immediately. And then there are always dumplings, because the shape of a dumpling vaguely resembles the gold ingots of the olden days. So the dumpling resembles, represents wealth. And also there's another essential food is tangyuan, the sweet dumpling filled with sweet sesame or with red beans paste. So those are the essentials.

Alice Han (39:54)

That was my favorite. The tangyuan is always my favorite. You can also have savory ones with meat. Pork meat is also very good. And then there's another. My mother used to always say it's like every year you're growing.

Li Jia Zhang (40:07)

Yes. Sticky. The sticky rice cake. Rice cake.

Alice Han (40:10)

Sticky rice cake, yeah. So much delicious food to have, I think, in the coming days, certainly, as we celebrate the Lunar New Year. Well, thank you so much, Lijia, for your time. And certainly I know you'll be making delicious food and dumplings. I certainly will be. But thank you so much for your time.

Li Jia Zhang (40:25)

My pleasure.

Alice Han (40:27)

All right, that's all for this very special episode to celebrate the China Lunar New Year. Thank you for listening to China Decode. This is a production of Prof. G Media. Our producers are David Toledo, Eric Janikis and Ness Smith Savadoff. Thank you to Kathryn Dillon, Drew Burrow Burrows, Billy Bennett, Dan Shalan, William Flynn, Jesse Millwood, Gil Espinoza, James Patton and Isabel Kinsel for production help every week. Make sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode. Talk to you again next week.