← The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
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- [00:06]
Bill Burnett
As a chef, I know flavor doesn't
- [00:08]
Scott Galloway
begin in the kitchen, it begins on the land. And West Home's Nature Led Australian Wagyu
- [00:13]
Robert Armstrong
is a story written in the landscape of Northern Australia.
- [00:19]
Scott Galloway
Cooking is storytelling and West Home Wagyu carries a story of Northern Australia itself. Raw, powerful and deeply authentic. It's a testament to the passion and
- [00:29]
Bill Burnett
care raised in the rhythm of Northern Australia.
- [00:32]
Scott Galloway
I'm chef Meilin from 88 Club in Los Angeles and I invite you to visit westhome.com maitland to learn more and taste a story only Westholm Nature Led Australian Wagyu can tell. That's W-E-S-T-H-O-L-M-E.com M-E-I-L-I-N this episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find
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Bill Burnett
the right people with the right skills.
- [00:59]
Robert Armstrong
Skills fast.
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Bill Burnett
It's a simple way to make sure
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Scott Galloway
your listing is the first candidate.
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Bill Burnett
C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs
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Scott Galloway
have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed.
- [01:12]
Bill Burnett
Get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:18]
Scott Galloway
Episode 241241 is the country code belonging to Gabon, a country in West Africa. In 1941, the Japanese Navy launched a surprise attack on the United States fleet at Pearl harbor, and M and Ms. Were created exclusively for US Deployed overseas. When my kids bring their Halloween candy home, I don't hide it and then eat it when they're asleep. I eat it in front of them slowly. Total power move. Go, go, go. Welcome to the 241st episode of the Prop G Pod. In today's episode, we speak with Bill Burnett, the co author of the New York Times best selling Designing youg Life and the co director of the Life Design Lab at Stanford University. We discussed with Bill the attributes of design thinking, understanding your talent, and what to do when you feel stuck. Okay, what's happening? Well, the big news is obviously the implosion of Silicon Valley bank.
- [02:18]
Robert Armstrong
Text messages were starting to go around. It became chatter and as the days went on, screenshots in about 40 hours, essentially collapsing and losing more than 40 billion in deposits.
- [02:27]
Scott Galloway
Really, in the blink of a We broke this down in a special episode of our Market show which you can find linked in our show notes. To cover this unfolding even further, we're bringing in Financial Times US Financial commentator Robert Armstrong. Robert, where does this podcast find you?
- [02:42]
Robert Armstrong
Brooklyn, New York.
- [02:43]
Scott Galloway
Brooklyn. Nice. Let's bust right into it. In your recent analysis you wrote that Silicon Valley Bank's collapse is a profitability problem rather than a threat to solvency in the style of the 2008 crisis. What did you mean by that?
- [02:58]
Robert Armstrong
I meant that Silicon Valley bank fell down because its balance sheet was extremely poorly managed. So as you know, Scott, banks do two things. They get money from people and they give money from people. And the trick to making money as a bank is to earn more on the money that you give than on the money you get. And Silicon Valley got into a situation where during the good times they bought a lot of bonds at low yields. And then the bad times came, they had all these low yielding bonds and all of a sudden the money they were getting, their funding, their deposits was becoming more expensive. So they were threatened with becoming an unprofitable bank.
- [03:52]
Scott Galloway
There's a general feeling across people who know, including yourself, that the risk of contagion here is a lot low, lower than it was 15 years ago. Why is that?
- [04:03]
Robert Armstrong
Well, in this particular case, the key point is that Silicon Valley bank was extraordinarily badly managed from a risk point of view. And its peer banks, including the peer banks that have seen their stock prices get badly beaten up, just don't have the same problems to the same degree. The same concentration of highly flighty business deposits, the same domination of the asset side of the balance sheet by low yield long term government bonds. This bank was an outlier. That's point number one. Point number two is that the post 2008 crisis regulations have kind of worked. Banks are in general in America are quite well capitalized and quite liquid. So that's better. The fact that a bank failed here shows you that the regulatory regime is not perfect. Maybe no regulators, regulatory regime can be, but we're better off than we were, systemically speaking.
- [05:08]
Scott Galloway
People reference that the CEO of Silicon Valley bank lobbied Congress for a rollback in certain aspects of the Dodd Frank regulation for banks that had less than $250 billion in assets claiming that they were different. Can you tell us exactly what the regulation was that they rolled back? And if they had not rolled it back, would it have prevented this type of run on the bank or this liquidity Crisis?
- [05:31]
Robert Armstrong
So in 2018 there was a bill that rolled back certain aspects of the Dodd Frank post crisis regulation for kind of medium sized American banks. And it meant that those banks would face less frequent stress tests, have somewhat less stringent liquidity and capital requirements, and would not have to have what they call living will, a resolution plan. That the very biggest banks have to do. What living wills are supposed to do is make sure that when a bank falls over it does not create a systemic problem. I don't think rolling back those rules for mid sized banks was a good idea. I'm not sure it was material in this case. This kind of talk that it all comes down to that bill I think is evidence of the first rule of financial crises, which is that it is the fault of someone who belongs to the other political party. And although that rule is never broken and we'll be reading a lot about it, I'm not sure in this case it would have made a difference because in my view the failure, the key failures at Silicon Valley bank were first the management of Silicon Valley bank, failing balance sheet risk control 101 risk management and two, the supervisors as opposed to the regulator. So there's two aspects to regulating banks. There's making rules for what they can do and there's somebody getting on the phone and calling the bank and making sure it's doing the right stuff. So I see this as a failure of management and a failure of supervision rather than regulation per se.
- [07:34]
Scott Galloway
There's also, and this might fall under the umbrella that you just outlined of looking for someone to blame that doesn't share your political values. But there's a class of individuals who are exceptionally loud on Twitter and I'm going to refer to them not as venture capitalists but as venture catastroph. And it's this catastrophe of oh, China is pulling ahead in AI because we're being overregulated and our system, our venture system runs so much better and has such greater lubrication and so much more horsepower when it's not hamstrung by the idiots in Washington. And then there's this panic where arsonists screaming fire. I mean literally at the top of their lungs taking to Twitter and saying lines around the banks, kind of all caps hysteria. And then when there begins a run on the bank, it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy there. Where's the government? And there's just a certain amount of resentment and I feel some of it that you're not being especially good citizens here, that you're finding soft tissue in the system that you claim is terrible. And then you're an arsonist who figures out a way to start a fire and then you're just screaming where is the fire department? Am I being hyperbolic here?
- [08:52]
Robert Armstrong
No. There is no more satisfying irony in the world than watching a part time libertarian scream for help and it is clear that this is what has happened here. As soon as it became clear that this bank was in trouble, everybody in Silicon Valley became a believer in the government and its responsibilities to support and basically backstop industry.
- [09:31]
Scott Galloway
What do you think happens here? Your sense is that this is. I'm going to use the pandemic as an analogy that when a lot of different people get some sort of natural immunity, the contagion gets blocked, it infects one person, it goes to the second signature bank and then it hits a block, it hits a Charles Schwab or someone else that quite frankly just has the liquidity, has done all sorts of stress tests because of Dodd Frank and just quite frankly is just much more bulletproof. Is that a fair analogy and assessment of what might happen or what is not happening here?
- [10:05]
Robert Armstrong
I think that is true up to a certain point. The difficult point in situations like this is in any banking system, no matter how well designed, you are doing what they call maturity transformation. You are taking short term deposits and turning them into long term loans. And that is powerful magic. And in the best regulated banking system, if you inject enough panic, the infection just runs out of control. So this goes back to your earlier point that there is a test of the sort of responsibility of everyone involved. It depends on a lot of people not yelling fire in a crowded theater and being sensible. And I think there are legitimate questions about how these kind of panic dynamics are different now than they might have been in an era when our communications technology was different. So it is important to recognize that there will always be banking scares and that there is no conceivable regulatory regime that closes off every possibility of severe stress in the banking system. We're dealing with powerful forces that can be moderated but not eliminated here.
- [11:35]
Scott Galloway
And wasn't at the end of the day, the remedy just to lift the cap on fdic. And if that's the case, is that a structural change we have coming, that the $250,000 limit is sort of means something until it doesn't?
- [11:50]
Robert Armstrong
Yes. But I would note first that that's always been true, that when push comes to shove in a banking crisis, the government does one damn thing or another to protect uninsured depositors. The prospect of all business depositors having their money stuck in a banking system is just too damn scary. So either by, as in 2008, arranging a forced marriage with another bank, or changing this rule, or changing that rule, or buying assets from banks to make them more liqu liquid, something is always done. And whether that becomes now explicit. That's an open question, but part of what you're talking about here is moral hazard. A lot of people worry that if we bail out uninsured depositors, depositors, they'll become careless and they will become risk prone and they'll put their money in banks that aren't really stable. I'm not sure how much we need to worry about that, actually. I think banks are risk averse primarily because the boss doesn't want to get fired. And in this case, the boss got fired and the whole executive team got fired. Their stock options are now worthless. All the shareholders got wiped out. The bondholders got wiped out. That's a pretty powerful thing, force even in the absence of depositors being at risk.
- [13:27]
Scott Galloway
Robert Armstrong is the FT's US financial commentator and writes the Unhedged Newsletter. He joins us from his home in Brooklyn, New York. Robert, thanks so much. Really enjoyed this conversation.
- [13:38]
Robert Armstrong
Real pleasure. Scott
- [13:42]
Scott Galloway
we'll be right back for our conversation with Bill Burnett. Support for the show comes from LinkedIn. It's a shame when the best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong audience. Like imagine running an ad for cataract surgery on Saturday morning cartoons. Or running a promo for this show on a video about Roblox or something. No offense to our Gen Alpha listeners, but that would be a waste of anyone's ad budget. So when you want to reach the right professionals, you can use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers according to their data. That's where it stands apart from other ad bots. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. All so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. That's why LinkedIn Ads boasts one of the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks.
- [14:33]
Robert Armstrong
Seriously, all of them.
- [14:34]
Scott Galloway
Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com Scott that's LinkedIn.com Scott Terms and conditions apply. Support for the show comes from Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. Nutrafil now offers hair growth supplements tailored to men at every age because the root causes of hair thinning change over time and your routine should too. Nutrafol men for ages 18 to 49 can help improve hair growth and achieve thicker, fuller hair in three to six months. And their new product Nutrafol Men 50 plus is the first and only hair growth product specifically formulated for men 50 and older. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. You can order online, no prescription needed. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair growth journey. Start Nutrafil today and make the hat optional. Visit nutrafil.com and enter promo code PROVCHI for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrful is the best selling hair growth supplement brand@nutrafol.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code Prof. G that's nutrafol.com promo code Prof. G. Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Bill Burnett, the co author of the New York Times bestselling Designing youg Life and the co director of the Life Design Lab at Stanford University. Professor Burnett, what does this podcast find you?
- [16:19]
Bill Burnett
I'm at my office at Stanford.
- [16:21]
Scott Galloway
Oh, nice.
- [16:22]
Bill Burnett
This morning.
- [16:22]
Scott Galloway
Yeah. So how do people become better design thinkers?
- [16:27]
Bill Burnett
Oh, that's a really good question. You know, this thing we call design thinking now, we used to call it just human centered design. And we've been doing this at Stanford for, I don't know, a long time, since 1963 when we started this program. The way you do it is you just change your mindset. You start thinking like a designer. So there's five mindsets. Curiosity. Rather than being a skeptic, be curious. Because if we're talking about the future, there's no data anyway. So let's just get curious and check it out. That's where the energy for our change comes from. And then we frame the problem. You probably know that famous Peter Drucker quote, there's nothing quite so useless as doing something very well that never needed to be done in the first place, right? So change the problem. Because most people are working on the wrong problem. And then radical collaboration. The problems and the interesting solutions are out in the world. Talk to people, bias to action. Because again, if there's no data about the future, just let's go do some stuff. Let's build some stuff. And then prototyping, that's the building. We investigate the world by building things and seeing what people do with them. So if you get curious, radically collaborate, Reframe your problems. Build lots of prototypes. You're doing design thinking and you distinguish
- [17:38]
Scott Galloway
between work view and life view. Say more.
- [17:41]
Bill Burnett
So in the classic diagram of design thinking, you start with empathy. In the case of designing your life, you Start with first empathy for yourself. Who are you? What do you want? What do you want out of work? What do you want out of life? And then empathy for the world. Because just because you want to do something doesn't mean the world cares, right? That doesn't mean the world's going to let you do it. So we have people write a work view, 250 words, 500 words on what's your theory of work? Why do we work? What's work for? And then a life view, which is literally 250 to 500 words on what's the meaning of life? What's your organizing principle? Why are we here? It might be a spiritual thing, might be a secular thing, but whatever it is. And then the really important thing is that research shows that when you have a coherent life view and work view, when the two match, you are able to experience your life as being more meaningful, more coherent. You're just. You're more in the groove. And so what we ask people to do is make these things explicit, and then they read them out to each other. We put people in little groups of three, because when you speak it, you sort of claim it, right? I mean, and then you hear yourself speaking it and you hear other people's reaction to it. And that forms what we call your compass. So now I know why I'm working. I know what works for in my bigger picture of what's life for. And that gives people a place to start.
- [19:00]
Scott Galloway
Give me an example of that.
- [19:02]
Bill Burnett
So I'm working with a bunch of young students now in the Designing youg Life class. They're typically seniors. And someone will say, well, I think I work to make money, but I also work because I want to have some impact and meaning in my life. And then maybe their life view is, I think I value family, I value community, I value the people in my life. And I want to do. And I want to be a good human. So those are pretty coherent, right? I want to be a good human. And work is in the service to others and making money and finding meaning. Although I got to tell you, everybody, this whole idea that work is going to be meaningful is a pretty new idea. My grandparents were immigrants from Germany. My dad got their family out of Germany in 1930. My grandfather got the family out of Germany in 1933. Because there was this guy named Hitler who just got elected. And you know, his thing was like, I'll take any job. He had sixth grade education.
- [19:56]
Scott Galloway
It was work to survive.
- [19:57]
Bill Burnett
Yeah, work to survive. Work to put a roof over our head. Work to send the kids to school. His kids went to the community college. I went to Stanford. My daughter's getting a PhD in stem cell technologies, you know, UCSF. So it's the classic immigrant story. But nowadays the kids all want impact and they want meaning. And I'm like, you know, you might not want to get your meaning where you get your money.
- [20:17]
Scott Galloway
I just want to pause there because I think it's a really important point, and I find that sometimes it's a bit of an indulgence. And when they say they want meaning in the work, sometimes I find just. And I know this is crass, they want the work to be more fun than what oftentimes work is, especially early in your career, that this notion that they should feel some sort of meaning, which is Latin for I want it to be less stressful and less, like, bureaucratic, less bullshit. And I know I sound boomerish here. This notion that you can have balance in your life, I've never bought it. You can have it all at once. You can have it all. You just can't have it all at once. It's a certain amount of balance requires a certain amount of lack of balance. At some point, is there some sort of. Is a younger generation a bit more entitled or are their expectations unrealistic?
- [21:07]
Bill Burnett
I don't know if they're entitled, but I think psychologists have this principle called the hedonic treadmill. It used to be money. I got to have more money, get a little more, and then it's good for a while, then I got to have some more. I got to have some more, right? And now I think money, meaning is maybe the new money. It's a sadonic treadmill. But, I mean, there's nothing wrong with saying, hey, look, I want to go to work, and I want to know what I'm working on and what I'm working for. That's fine. That's not entitled. That's reasonable. And managers are doing a shitty job of connecting the dots between, hey, you're the junior analyst. You're making the spreadsheets for the partner, so shut up and do your work. Or, hey, let me tell you why this is important. Because if we have good data, we can make better decisions. If we organize the data well, the partner can just move fast. So we had the big quit. 47 million people quit in 2021. About the same number quit in 2022. People are pretty unhappy at their jobs. The Gallup Engagement Survey has never had more than 30, 32% engaged workers in the US so it's not a new problem that people find their jobs meaningless. It's a management problem because you can make any job significant and feel like it has impact. And I think we do a terrible job at doing it. And this generation is a little more demanding. They value novelty over mastery. They're talking to me about, well, I want to have an impact. Well, you've only been in the job a year and you don't really know what you're doing yet. So dig in and learn how to do the job. Well, once you have mastery over this junior analyst position or this junior designer position, you get more responsibility and you start to move into, into, you know, bigger and bigger, more responsible roles. And those roles, you know, have more, more impact because you're moving the needle on how much money we make or, you know, how many customers we serve. So, you know, dig on mastery. But I think if. I don't know about entitlement, but this generation seems to like to change. Like I did something for a little while, I got bored, I quit my job, I went to another company. I did the same thing. I had a student who did this five times. You know, five completely successful jobs in, you know, five years. And I'm going, what are you doing? She goes, well, you know, it's just not that interesting. I said, well, it's not that interesting because you don't really. You never get to the second part. You never get to the second project.
- [23:20]
Scott Galloway
So if mastery is a goal, I think of mastery, two components would be grit and perseverance and time spent trying to master that. And also just natural talent. And I find that most young people fall into the trap of thinking they've been told, follow your passion. And I've always been, follow your talent. And your job in your 20s or one of your jobs is to figure out what just naturally talented at. Do you have a process or a way of distilling that down to a set of behaviors for getting to that answer sooner rather than later?
- [23:52]
Bill Burnett
Yeah, I think so. And you know, this whole follow your passion thing, Dave Evans, the guy I wrote the books with, and I are kind of the anti passion guys. We're research based, we teach the class. It's got lots of exercises in it, but it's Stanford, so I can't just make shit up. I've got it based on the research. So right across the campus is the center for the Study of Adolescence and a guy named Bill Damon, who's a big researcher in this space, he wrote a book called Path to Purpose. He said look, only 20% of people have any single year, single identifiable passion. 80% of the people, when you ask them that question, go, I don't know, or I got five of them. What do you want to talk about first? So it's a stupid question, because 8 out of 10 people are going to answer, I don't know. And actually, like you, I think we're all in favor of people working passionately and working with grit. But you don't have to know your passion in advance to figure out what you want to do with your life. And so, yeah, you do a work for you in a lifeview. That's your compass. And then you engage your curiosity to figure out, where are my talents. And talent is interesting because I think it does exist. But I also think that talent plus the 10,000 hours is what gets you to mastery and to a state where you can see around the corners and you're doing work that nobody else can do. So if you can identify something that you're naturally drawn to and whatever the circuits in your brains are that happen to sort of process that kind of information better than others, then you're on the right path. I think it's like, get curious, talk to people, try stuff, and then tell your story. That's the whole book in a nutshell. Get curious because that's the thing that, you know, take your curiosity for a walk. There's stuff in the world that's interesting. Go find it, then talk to people and talk. You know, this is maybe information interviewing. We call it prototype conversations, prototype experiences. Go out and talk to people. You know, William Gibson, a science fiction writer, he said, the future is already here. It's just unevenly distributed, you know, so, like, there's somebody doing what you think you're interested in doing. Just go talk to them. It's like time travel. They're 10 years down the road in your career. If you talk to them and something in your body lights up, that's a really good sign that maybe this is something of interest to you. Do a ride along, do a shadow somebody for a day. Make up a little project and do it, and then, you know, find somebody to talk to with it and then tell your story. Because as you tell your story about this journey, other people come in and say, oh, you know who you should talk to? You should talk to this guy Scott Galloway, or you should talk to this guy Dave Evans. Our experience is five, six cycles of that. And all of a sudden you found yourself in a really interesting place in the work world or in your personal life and you're hanging out with people that are in your tribe.
- [26:40]
Scott Galloway
Part of the problem is we don't have a common vocabulary and you need to be able to. So talent. People understand the term. But have you thought about and has there been. Has anyone distilled it down to like, these are the seven types of talent.
- [26:55]
Bill Burnett
I'm not fond of assessments because I think it puts people in boxes, but the one we use is the from. It comes from what's called the Clifton strength finder. But now it's Gallup bought it, so they call it the strength finder. And what strength finder is, is sort of 35 things that Gallup has isolated that.
- [27:13]
Scott Galloway
35?
- [27:14]
Bill Burnett
Yeah, 35. And then you do the test and they give you your top five.
- [27:17]
Scott Galloway
Right, I got it.
- [27:18]
Bill Burnett
I'll give you top five. And there are things like strategists, imagination, a maximizer, which they use kind of crazy words. But a maximizer is a person who just likes to optimize systems. A strategist is a person who thinks in big picture. An ideator is a person who's really good at generating options. And so we do that in class. The kids get their five signature strengths, they call it, and they break it down according to a certain. Certain things. It doesn't say, oh, if you're really good at coming up with ideas and you're a strategizer and a maximizer, you should be an investment banker. It doesn't say that, but at least it gives you a sense of compared to other people. The reason I'm the person in the group that tends to get things organized and get things done, or the reason I'm the person in the group who tends to come up with the idea that nobody else thought of is because it's a talent and they call a strength a talent. Plus what you work on. So talents is underlying. But if you don't work on it, if you don't practice it and make it better, it ain't a strength. But it's backed up. Gallup does lots of statistics. It's backed up by a couple of million data points of what works. And it's all about the. It's not like Myers, Briggs, I'm an intj, anything like that. It's very much about what are the things that make people successful at what work.
- [28:43]
Scott Galloway
We'll be right back. Support for the show comes from Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. Nutrafol now offers hair growth supplements tailored to men at every age because the root cause of hair thinning change over time and your routine should as well. Nutruful men for ages 18 to 49 can help improve hair growth and achieve thicker fuller hair in three to six months and their new product Nutrafol Men 50 plus is the first and only hair growth product specifically formulated for men 50 and older. You can feel great about what you're putting into your body. Since Nutrafol hair growth supplements are backed by peer reviewed studies and NSF Content Certified the gold standard in third party certification for supplements. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. You can order online, no prescription needed. Plus with a Nutrafol subscription you can save up to 20% and get added perfect to support your hair growth journey. Start Nutrafil today and make the hat optional. Visit nutrafil.com and enter promo code Prof. G for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement brand@nutrafol.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code prop g that's nutrafol.com promo code prop. G. Support for the show comes from Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by one and a half million people. Nutrafol now offers hair growth supplements tailored to men at every age because the root cause of hair thinning change over time and your routine should as well. Nutriful men for ages 18 to 49 can help improve hair growth and achieve thicker fuller hair in three to six months and their new product Nutraful Men 50 plus is the first and only hair growth product specifically formulated for men 50 and older, you can feel great about what you're putting into your body. Since Nutrafol hair growth supplements are backed by peer reviewed studies and NSF Content certified the gold standard in third party certification for supplements. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. You can order online, no prescription needed. Plus with a Nutrafol subscription you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair growth journey. Start Nutrafol today and make the hat optional. Visit neutral.com and enter promo code Prof. G for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement brand@nutrafol.com spelled n n u t r a f o l.com, promo code Prof. G that's nutrafol.com, promo code Prof. G. I got introduced to a group called Second act. And it was. I think it's called Second Act. And it was all these incredibly successful professionals who worked at Goldman for 20 years, got laid off or decided to leave. They wake up to 42 and they're like, I don't know what I want to do. I just don't. I just know I don't want to be an investment banker any longer. And I feel blessed because I figured that out after two years, not 20. And I was also blessed with. I was not very good at it, so there was no temptation to stay in it. What advice do you have to people who feel like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm getting stuck? A, how do you know when you're stuck? And B, what's a means of catalyzing or getting through the mud, if you will?
- [31:47]
Bill Burnett
You're right. You got lucky. Because if for whatever reason you weren't as good as your peers at investment banking, you got a really clear signal, hey, maybe this is 100%.
- [31:56]
Scott Galloway
Fast failure is a gift.
- [31:57]
Bill Burnett
Yeah, fast failure is a gift. And you know, the folks I talked to who were 45 and now burned out and pissed off and they don't want to be an investment banker anymore, they just happen to be really smart, so they were good at it. But the curse of being really smart is they didn't get a lot of signals from the marketplace about stuff they couldn't do because pretty much, if they worked really hard, they probably could do almost anything. So there is a curse in being too smart for your own good. I think people get stuck. That's the whole basis of our students get stuck. People get stuck in mid career. They get stuck when they. People are retiring, in some cases earlier, and they have a much longer health span, they're going to be healthy for another 20, 25 years. That's a whole nother career. You can't just go golfing for 25 years. So this is a big problem. But so how do you know your stock? Well, you take an assessment the last 12 months, you've come to work and you had to drag your ass out of bed every Monday morning, and there's nothing you're not curious about you're doing anymore because you've just been doing it for so long that it isn't interesting. So the stuck feeling is like numb. Like your brain's numb, your head's numb, your heart's numb. So it takes a little bit of work to identify it. But once you've identified it, then the mindsets of curiosity, reframing come into play. And so you get curious, you start talking to people and you try different things and then you tell your story. It's an empirical process. It's the difference between navigation and wayfinding. If I'm navigating, if I know I'm currently sitting at Stanford, if I want to go home to my house in the dog patch, I know exactly how to do that. I enter the address in my GPS, it takes me up 280 and I'm there. I know the beginning and the end point. That's navigation. Wayfinding is I know where I am, I don't know where I want to go. I have a vague target. One of the interesting studies on this is hunters in northern Norway and Lapland and way up north, you know, they leave the village as a group, they go to a certain place, they don't know where the animals, where the caribou are, but they have some ideas, they have some heuristics for how they go to the next step and they look for some tracks and they find something and the path is left, right, up, down, forward, back. You know, they finally find the animals because they're good hunters. They kill a caribou and then they navigate back to, you know, they dress the animal, bring it home. That's straightforward. So the shortest path between the animal and home is a straight line. The shortest path between the hunters and the animal is literally the shortest distance is this circuitous route. But they use their tacit knowledge and tracks and signs in the environment. So that's what you do when you're trying to find a new gig, a new thing to do, a new thing that'll turn you on. So just accepting that you're, that you're done is sometimes really hard to do. And it is. The shortest distance to your future is to start the journey to the next step, collect some data, run some prototypes, see what you find. Go left, go right based on the data, get to the next point and some introspection, some discernment, and you'll get there. You will absolutely get there.
- [35:05]
Scott Galloway
So when you're trying to figure out your talent and kind of this design thinking as it relates to your work, and I love this exercise of figuring out, trying to articulate why do we work or why do you work, what is your life for? And then the answers, those two things kind of form a compass. And your five part process, I think is really actionable. Have you thought about applying this notion of design thinking to creating stronger relationships or more enduring Relationships. Should you be going through the same similar process around the key relationships in your life?
- [35:40]
Bill Burnett
When we wrote the first book, we realized very early on that the book, it's called designing your life, it's not always designing our lives together. I mean, no man is an island, right? And it was interesting. We were at a book signing and this couple came up and they said, thank you so much for saving our marriage. And we said, what are you talking about? And they said, well, now, we used to fight over my career, her career, blah, blah, blah. But now we do Odyssey plans together. And it's really cool because we generate all these ideas of things we could do that aren't a trade off. They're a yes. And we're like, oh, shit, we totally screwed up. We didn't include that in the book. And I think I know that. The same idea, empathy. Redefine the problem. Come up with lots of ideas. Try stuff. All of these techniques are brilliant when applied to building your community, finding mentors, creating sustainable relationships. Back to my grandfather, who came to America with no education and took any job he could take. He literally worked at the sewage factory shoveling stuff from one tank to another, you know, for 50 cents a day at one point. But he had a meaningful life because he had his community and he had his church. He was a man of faith, and he and my grandmother, you know, had the people at the church. Life wasn't easy, but he had community and he had relationships. You know, the Harvard study, the Grant study, and the Harvard Study of Adult Development, that's wrapped up. Robert Waldinger wrote a book on this. It's like, what's the number one thing that predicts longevity, that predicts health, that predicts actually wealth and it's relationships. So you got to dig into that and you got to double down. And that's what I really worry about my students, because this is the loneliest generation we've educated. It's the most anxious and screwed in a lot of ways. Psychologically challenged generation. The most medicated number, you know, I don't know, something like 60, 70% of the students at Stanford are on some kind of medication for their anxiety.
- [37:38]
Scott Galloway
60 to 70%?
- [37:40]
Bill Burnett
Yeah, because this is, you know, I heard you talk about this is the generation of boys who got, you know, diagnosed as ADHD because they were, what, they couldn't sit in a chair for six hours a day when they were nine. And so they're all, you know, they all got their Adderalls and their whatevers. It's funny, you know, When I was a college student, all the drugs were fun.
- [38:01]
Scott Galloway
No, you listen to Led Zeppelin after doing the drugs. We did.
- [38:04]
Bill Burnett
Yeah. And then nowadays all the drugs are for performance to be better at something that's so fun.
- [38:11]
Scott Galloway
And how has your work impacted your role as a husband and a father? Are there certain things when your kids were teenagers or acting as their dad and giving them advice? What can you advise other dads on?
- [38:27]
Bill Burnett
Yeah, you know, one, boys are girls.
- [38:31]
Scott Galloway
Is this the cobblers? Kids have no shoes?
- [38:32]
Bill Burnett
No, no. Boys are different than girls. My son was a lot more challenging than my daughters. But, you know, we, you know, my wife is actually an entrepreneur now in a business. Went to the dark side, got an mba, but she was also a designer at one point in her life. And so we just thought, you know, the most important thing is social, emotional learning. And the most important thing is the, that the kids know that they preserve their creativity even through the, you know, through school, which kind of just teaches conformity. And they say they want creativity, but they just want kids to sit up and shut. Sit down and shut up and do their work. Right. You know, and I'm a sort of reformed toy designer. I did Star wars toys and other toys in the early part of my career. And then I realized these toys are just turning our kids into consumers. And so our thing was like, you don't get toys, but you get all the hot melt and, you know, and exactly the knives you want. Our kids work cutting stuff out with X Actos at 4 and 5. And if you cut yourself, you learn not to do that. If you burn yourself with a hot melt gun, you learn not to do that. So we just focused on their creativity and their social and emotional learning and they've all turned out great. Now, were there lots of challenges to the teenage years? Sure, but that's what they're supposed to do. I mean, at one point I remember talking to my wife, I said, boy, if we do this really, really well, they're going to say the reward is, they say, thanks, mom and dad, I'm out of here. I'm good. So we just focused. We've said we won't be in the room where they have to make a hard decision. Am I going to put that pill in my mouth and am I going to, in my son's case, break into that school room and so just try to teach them to make the right decision when we're not there. And so we taught them a lot of design and they're very creative kids. The rest of it, they did on their own, they were just wonderful. I love them. That's my biggest accomplishment.
- [40:26]
Scott Galloway
And just circling back to the corporate world. And my guess is you're going to agree with this thesis. One observation I've had is that when VCs, I work with a lot of VCs, and I'll be in the room during a pitch and you used to ask who's the tech guy or gal on the team? And then they'd ask thoughtful questions to try and make sure there was a there there. I increasingly believe and find that they're going to ask who's the design person that the chief designer, whatever you want to call this person, the chief creative officer, is now no longer gets just a cool office where they can put up stickers and bring weird posters. They're actually on the executive floor now. It does feel as if founder of Airbnb, CEO of Snap, that design has been elevated as kind of a core competence of successful companies.
- [41:13]
Bill Burnett
I think it's absolutely true. In fact, one of our lecturers sometimes is a woman named Irene Au, and she's the design partner at Kosovo Ventures, and her job is to help the startups that they've invested in to understand how to use design as a strategic power. And you mentioned Snapchat. So I don't know until what it was 2014, 15. One of my advisees, Evan Spiegel, walked in my office and said, hey, what if everybody's trying to make perks pictures permanent on the Internet? What if we made them disappear? And I said, evan, that's a stupid idea. Why would anybody want their pictures to disappear? And that's Evan and that's Snapchat and we still do some work together. It's kind of fun. But, yeah, I think you're right. What people have looked at is the example of Apple, the example of Harley Davidson, the example of why are Apple's hardware margins 50% and everybody else in the business barely ekes out a margin at all? Because you will pay more for an Apple product. Why? Because it's not just the product, it's the design. It's the whole integration. And people misunderstand. They think Apple products are just designed to look nice, but there's actually three layers to it. And so, you know, yeah, I think design has David Kelly, our senior guy here that started the D school and started ideo, he says designers used to be at the kids table, you know, for dinner, but now they're with the grown ups.
- [42:37]
Scott Galloway
Bill Burnett is a designer, educator, and an adjunct professor at Stanford University. He is also the co author of the New York Times bestseller Designing youg Life and the co director of the Life Design Lab at Stanford University and executive director of the Design Program where he manages the undergraduate and graduate programs. He joins us from his office at Stanford University. I really enjoyed the bill. Congratulations on your success and the impact you're having. I keep seeing your name and people referring to your good work more and more.
- [43:08]
Bill Burnett
Well, thank you very much. And again, it's a privilege. I love your. I love the work you're doing. I think you are a truth teller. And then we need more of that.
- [43:25]
Scott Galloway
Outdoor of happiness. This was a super interesting weekend and it revealed a lot about different parties. I thought I was involved and when I say this weekend, the Silicon Valley bank implosion, I was directly involved or am directly involved, either on the board of an investor in or the founder of a company that does banking with Silicon Valley Bank. Prof. G Does their banking with Silicon Valley Bank. And we had more than the $250,000 FDIC limit. My EdTech company, Section 4, had dramatically more than the $250,000 limit. Another company I'm involved in had tens of millions. Another one, I think almost 10 million. And there were a range of behaviors and first off, as much shit as venture capitalists get. The venture capitalists I work with, specifically General Catalyst, who's backed everything I've ever done, were just calm and said, don't worry, we'll figure this out. Don't worry about things like payroll. Tell the CEO that we'll absolutely figure this out. They were kind of there. They were also part of that letter that said we backed Silicon Valley Bank. And in general, the majority of the VCs I spoke to were very supportive. The CEOs immediately kind of jumped to action and tried to figure out liquidity and what it meant. There was definitely a difference, though. The young CEOs had their hair on fire. They'd never seen this before. And there was more of a. I don't want to call it a panic, but they just hadn't experienced something like this before. And my view was, and I only took money out. And let me be clear, I was the dumb one. I was only part of one company that got their money out because I was not panicked and maybe I should have been. And had the government not stepped in, I'd be hating myself right now. And one of the things that happens when you get older is you develop perspective. What does that mean? That is you have a wider lens, the aperture is broader, and that is You've been through a lot of this stuff, and you realize that I thought in 2008 that was it, that the economy was coming to an end. And guess what? It didn't. In 2000, when the dot bomb crisis wiped out every one of my companies, I thought, that's it. My career's over. No one's ever gonna invest in me. I'm gonna be a pariah. People are gonna be angry. That was not true either. There's been all sorts of times when I thought this was it. This is the end of the on the flip side, in 1999, when red envelope was supposed to go public, and I thought, by this time next year, I'll have a gulf stream. That was not true. In 2007, when I thought, I'm a master of the universe advising hedge funds and I'm going to make hundreds of millions of dollars as an activist investor, that was not true either. And that is. And again, it all comes back to the same place. And this has been such a huge source of comfort and perspective for me. And it's the following. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, and it should impact your life on both sides of the spectrum. When you're killing it, when you've been promoted, when things are going well for you, you're making money, your stocks are going up. Recognize a lot of it isn't your fault, and be humble and be grateful and maybe even diversify a little bit. Because recognize a lot of it is luck. And I find luck over the long term is perfectly asymmetrical. And you will at some point face bad luck and you should prepare for it. Life isn't about what happens to you. Life is about how you react to what happens to you. And I think part of being masculine, and again, I don't think masculinity is the domain of any one gender. But part of being masculine is remaining calm when shit gets real. Recognizing that as bad as something might seem in real time, it likely isn't as bad as we think. And in a few years from now, and definitely when you're near the end, you're going to look back and you're not going to be upset about what happened. You're going to be upset at how upset you were. Be the steady hand, calm other people. Be good to yourself. Be forgiving to yourself. Also be humble. Nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Edition associate producer, and Drew Burroughs is our technical director. If you like what you heard, please follow, download and subscribe. Thank you for listening to the Prophet Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for no Mercy, no Malice as read by George Hahn and on Monday with our weekly market show. Compliance risk lives in every employee. Email disclaimers get removed, brand elements get edited, legal text disappears and nobody notices until the email is already sent. That's regulatory exposure. That's reputational damage multiplied across thousands of emails every single day. Exclaimer eliminates the risk with centralized email signature management, fully controlled, fully compliant and fully automated. Visit exclaimer.com to try for free. Today it's mushrooms with me, Matty Matheson. You know what's better than thinking about dinner too hard not stop that and just choose mushrooms. Five minutes.
- [48:27]
Bill Burnett
Done.
- [48:28]
Scott Galloway
Dinner's that easy and you feel like a genius? It's not magic, it's mushrooms. Stop stressing@mushroomcouncil.com.