Trump vs. Democracy: Two Historians’ Perspectives

The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway

Introduction

In the episode titled "Trump vs Democracy: Two Historians’ Perspectives," host Kara Swisher engages with historians Dr. Lindsey Shervinsky and Dr. Timothy Naftali to dissect the implications of Donald Trump's presidency on American democracy. The discussion delves into historical parallels, authoritarian tendencies, and the resilience of democratic institutions in the face of unprecedented challenges.

Initial Reactions to Trump's Victory

The conversation begins with immediate reactions to Trump's election outcome.

• Tim Naftali expresses surprise: “I’m really surprised. I think that I have to completely rethink everything I knew about how elections work and what matters.” (05:33)

• Lindsey Shervinsky shares a less surprised stance, having anticipated the normalization of Trump within half the country: “I wasn’t as surprised because I had sadly come to the understanding that January 6th didn’t matter for half the country.” (06:32)

Historical Parallels and Structural Weaknesses

Swisher prompts the historians to compare the current political climate with that of the 1790s.

• Naftali highlights parallels such as intense partisanship and foreign interference, noting the key difference lies in the fragility of institutions and the shared sense of national survival in the 1790s: “And I think the election of 1800...most people stepped back from the brink.” (08:45)

• He also warns against complacency in modern times: “We know from looking at other nations, republics don’t always survive.” (10:48)

Authoritarian Tendencies of Trump

The discussion shifts to Trump's actions and rhetoric that mirror authoritarian behaviors.

• Lindsey draws parallels between Trump and historical figures like Andrew Jackson and Richard Nixon, emphasizing Trump’s lack of restraint: “Donald Trump has made it clear that he doesn’t want any guardrails...he wants to use the instruments of the federal government to hurt his enemies.” (14:30)

• Naftali adds that Trump's violations of norms and lack of shame set him apart from predecessors like Nixon: “With Donald Trump, we have someone who has no shame, explicit, and doesn’t care about presidential norms.” (37:24)

Comparisons with Past Presidents: Washington and Nixon

Swisher engages the historians in a comparative analysis of George Washington and Richard Nixon with Trump.

• Naftali discusses Washington's limited constitutional framework and his reliance on cabinet advisors to prevent authoritarianism: “The delegates at the Constitutional Convention...trusted him to make good decisions...he surrounded himself with people who had different types of expertise.” (14:48)

• Lindsey examines Nixon's abuses of power, such as the Plumbers unit and attempts to undermine political opponents, contrasting them with Trump's more overt intentions: “Nixon wanted to do much more damage than he was able to get away with...But with Donald Trump, we have someone who has no shame, explicit, and doesn’t care about presidential norms.” (29:06)

Impact on American Democracy

The historians assess the potential long-term effects of Trump's presidency on democratic institutions.

• Naftali expresses concern over the unprecedented threats to election integrity and the potential misuse of presidential powers: “Our infrastructure is great. It’s just this question that so much of our system, especially the presidency, what.” (21:25)

• Lindsey warns of President Trump's potential to reshape the presidency into a tool for personal vendettas, undermining constitutional safeguards: “He is making clear, has made clear to us that he will define the interests of the United States and that the office will be a means by which to achieve those personal interests.” (22:26)

Audience Question: The State of Lying in Politics

An audience member, Bill Adair, poses a question about what Washington and Nixon would say about the current climate of deceit in politics.

• Naftali believes Washington would be horrified by presidential immunity from prosecution: “I can be pretty confident that they would be horrified at the notion that a president would not be held accountable for their actions.” (28:02)

• Lindsey suggests Nixon would view Trump as a clever but problematic figure, envious of the modern media ecosystem that amplifies his disinformation: “Richard Nixon would consider Donald Trump an unintelligent man, but a very clever man and would be envious of the media ecosystem in which Trump lives.” (46:41)

Cult of Personality and Support Base

The discussion explores how Trump cultivates a cult of personality and maintains unwavering support.

• Naftali compares Trump’s ability to create an alternative reality with historical figures, highlighting how Trump aligns followers' perceptions with his own narratives: “He has convinced a lot of people that whatever they're seeing isn't happening. What he says is what is happening.” (47:26)

• Lindsey contrasts Nixon’s limited and less emotionally charged support base with Trump’s deep emotional loyalty, which limits corrective actions against him: “Trump's base never shrank to the extent that Nixon's did after Watergate.” (48:27)

Potential for Abuse of Power

The historians discuss the likelihood of Trump abusing presidential powers if re-elected.

• Lindsey raises concerns about Trump’s intentions to use government instruments against political rivals and the implications of Supreme Court rulings granting presidential immunity: “Without those guardrails, the President has enormous power to do damage.” (32:28)

• Naftali emphasizes the importance of accountability mechanisms: “We just have to keep trying because the most pernicious thing will be if we do give up hope.” (58:27)

Conclusions and Recommendations

In closing, the historians offer strategies to counter authoritarian tendencies and preserve democratic norms.

• Lindsey advises civilians to exercise their civil rights and resist the normalization of authoritarian tactics: “Remember your civil rights. Exercise your civil rights, be who you want it to be...Don't let Trump stand in your way of enjoying the full benefits of the Constitution.” (56:41)

• Naftali reinforces the need for continued accountability and vigilance against the erosion of democratic institutions: “The best and most long lasting way to combat authoritarianism is through accountability...We have to keep trying to hold people to account.” (56:41)

Notable Quotes

• Tim Naftali on election surprise: “I’m really surprised. I think that I have to completely rethink everything I knew about how elections work and what matters.” (05:33)

• Lindsey Shervinsky on normalization of Trump: “The fact that Donald Trump remained not just a viable candidate, but a powerful and successful candidate on the national level told us a lot about ourselves.” (08:11)

• Tim Naftali on institutional complacency: “We know from looking at other nations, republics don’t always survive.” (10:48)

• Lindsey Shervinsky on Trump's use of government: “He is making clear, has made clear to us that he will define the interests of the United States and that the office will be a means by which to achieve those personal interests.” (22:26)

• Lindsey Shervinsky on mitigating authoritarianism: “Don’t let Trump stand in your way of enjoying the full benefits of the Constitution.” (56:41)

Conclusion

Kara Swisher's conversation with Dr. Lindsey Shervinsky and Dr. Timothy Naftali provides a deeply insightful examination of the challenges posed by Donald Trump's presidency to American democracy. By drawing historical parallels and highlighting the erosion of democratic norms, the episode underscores the critical need for vigilance, accountability, and active civic engagement to safeguard democratic institutions against authoritarian threats.