Podcast Summary

The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway

Episode: Ukraine and America’s Credibility Crisis — with Anne Applebaum
Date: December 4, 2025
Guest: Anne Applebaum (Pulitzer Prize-winning historian, staff writer at The Atlantic)

Episode Overview

This episode features Scott Galloway in conversation with Anne Applebaum. Together, they examine the current state of the war in Ukraine, the controversial U.S.-Russia "peace plan" negotiations, America’s mounting credibility crisis on the world stage, and the creeping dangers of kleptocracy and corruption seeping into U.S. governance. The discussion also explores shifting power dynamics in Europe, Russia’s internal realities, and how the war is accelerating larger historical trends.

Key Discussion Points

1. The State of Play: U.S.-Russia “Peace” Negotiations

(08:34–11:54)

• Background on Negotiations:
  Recent backchannel talks have involved U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff, Trump family associates, and Russian state figures like Kirill Dmitriev (head of Russia’s sovereign wealth fund).
• Primary Interests:
  These talks seem driven less by urgent interest in ending the war or ensuring Ukraine’s sovereignty than by “the creation of a possible new set of American and Russian business deals,” including mineral exploration and oil/gas projects.
• Corrupt Undertones:
  Applebaum finds this arrangement unprecedented: “I can't find an exact precedent in American history before where something this high stakes ... was being conducted by essentially business people whose main interest was business deals.” (10:56)

2. America’s Corruption and International Credibility

(11:54–20:45)

• Correlation with Recent U.S. Actions:
  Applebaum and Galloway agree that U.S. foreign policy (and even legal processes like presidential pardons) appear increasingly for sale.
• Global Perception:
  Europeans, according to Applebaum, are “shocked and surprised that even at this level, that it would be that corrupt.” (12:27)
• Decline of Accountability:
  Anne notes, “I don't know of an exact historical parallel … when you have this kind of corruption ... it results in some kind of collapse or disaster or war, and it’s after the collapse ... that you have the moment of reckoning.” (15:40)
• Contrast to Ukraine:
  Ukraine, despite being at war, is actively investigating internal corruption, with popular support for anti-corruption efforts. Applebaum asks if Americans could even imagine similar oversight now.

3. The “Capitulation” Peace Plan

(24:17–31:08)

• What’s at Stake:
  The proposed peace plan involves U.S. recognition of broad Russian occupation of Ukrainian territories—including some still held by Ukraine—and barring Ukraine from NATO membership “ever.”
• Ukrainian Perspective:
  The plan is unacceptable to Kyiv and the broader Ukrainian public; it’s seen as a forced surrender, not a genuine settlement.
• Political Impossibility:
  “President Zelenskyy could not stay in office and just turn over this piece of land.” (26:12)
• Comparison to Korea:
  Real, lasting peace would require strong guarantees and continued Western support, as in South Korea—not the abandonment suggested by this plan.

4. Europe’s Response and Shifting Alliances

(31:08–39:35)

• Europe Steps Up:
  With U.S. backing waning, European countries (especially those close to Ukraine) have intensified military and economic support, with nations like Denmark, Norway, and Germany undergoing real transformations.
• Strategic Awakening:
  Applebaum describes a “big change in Europe and European strategic thinking ... and the big realization that Europe has made a huge mistake in allowing the U.S. to dominate new technology.” (35:54–38:39)
• Decoupling from the U.S.:
  The dynamic many Americans miss: “The U.S. is not going to be able to dictate what happens in Ukraine ... they certainly won’t be able to dictate a bad solution.” (39:35)

5. The Rise of Kleptocracy and Lawlessness

(44:11–48:49)

• Kleptocracy Tracker:
  Applebaum tracks a mounting list of regulatory rollbacks and pardon-for-donation scandals, warning of an atmosphere where “you can do all these things with impunity.”
• American Complacency:
  “We're so used to our system running on autopilot ... and once the critical mass is reached and that's no longer true, then it's going to be very hard to fix.” (48:05)

6. Impact on American Politics and the Midterms

(48:49–50:45)

• Potential Fallout:
  Sustained war and failed “peace” negotiations sold as grifts could negatively affect U.S. public perception, especially if Americans see national interest repeatedly sacrificed to enrich those close to power.

7. Business-First Diplomacy: The Dangers of Oligarchy

(50:45–54:57)

• Modeling After Russia:
  “That is literally the Russian system … where all of government and all of foreign policy is really just designed to benefit this kind of ownership class.” (51:42–52:21)
• Worldwide Trends:
  Applebaum’s recent book, Autocracy Inc., explores how autocracies blur the lines between politics and business, and she argues the U.S. is now “pushing in that direction.”

8. Winners and Losers in a Changing Europe

(54:57–59:31)

• Europe’s New Power Centers:
  Applebaum sees countries like Poland as rising powers due to their support for Ukraine, while the UK faces economic headwinds from Brexit.
• Strategic Realignment:
  Alliances are shifting; “We need to have much stronger country-to-country links that don't depend on some assumption of permanent American presence in Europe.” (57:30)

9. Inside Russia: Mindset and Resilience

(59:31–62:31)

• No Real Public Opinion:
  “It’s genuinely impossible to measure something called public opinion in Russia, because this is a country in which to be against the war is illegal.” (60:11)
• Russian Endurance:
  Russians may be “exhausted” but the state is willing to endure immense losses; this is a core national trait and a strategic asset.

10. Ukraine’s Innovation and the War Economy

(62:31–66:37)

• Shifting Ukrainian Strategy:
  Ukraine’s new focus is on targeting Russian economic infrastructure with drones, not just military targets.
  “They’re now so far ahead of everybody else ... everybody’s going there to learn how they’re doing it, including Americans.” (66:02–66:37)

11. “Where Would You Live?”: Young Professionals and Opportunity

(65:28–67:05)

• Applebaum would advise a young professional to explore Poland or even Ukraine’s drone industry, rather than Russia.
• She fondly regards London as “still the greatest city in the world.” (67:02)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I can't find an exact precedent in American history before where something this high stakes ... was being conducted by essentially business people whose main interest was business deals.”
  — Anne Applebaum (10:56)

• “Ukraine, even now, is investigating corruption. Can you imagine that here?”
  — Anne Applebaum (18:25)

• “The world online is a pretty small world. ... I used to get upset ... on Twitter. When I logged off ... it just didn’t matter.”
  — Scott Galloway (05:34)

• “The plan is essentially asking Ukraine to give away territory Russia couldn’t capture in battle—and somehow that’s peace?”
  — Anne Applebaum (26:03)

• “We are really very much at risk of government for the ownership class ... It’s a kind of state where political power and economic power are the same thing.”
  — Anne Applebaum (53:02, condensed)

• “Wars don’t change history, they accelerate it.”
  — Scott Galloway (54:57)

• “The country where I see the most innovation ... is there [Ukraine].”
  — Anne Applebaum (66:02)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 08:34 — U.S.-Russia negotiation background and business motives
• 12:09 — Global view of American corruption & credibility
• 15:40 — Is there any historical parallel for this situation?
• 18:19 — Contrast: Ukraine fights corruption as part of national identity
• 24:36 — What’s actually in the “peace”/capitulation plan?
• 31:08 — State of public support in Ukraine and Europe
• 35:54 — Europe’s transformation, new defense and tech thinking
• 39:35 — Has the U.S. completely lost leverage in Ukraine?
• 44:21 — The Kleptocracy Tracker and risks for U.S. norms
• 50:45 — Diplomacy replaced by private capital networks
• 54:57 — Historical acceleration: who are Europe’s winners and losers?
• 59:45 — Russia’s opaque internal mindset
• 62:31 — Ukrainian strategy: target Russian infrastructure and economy
• 65:28 — Where should a young professional with mobility live/work?
• 67:05 — Closing thoughts on Ukraine’s postwar potential

Conclusion

In a far-reaching conversation, Scott Galloway and Anne Applebaum dissect the unprecedented melding of private interests and official diplomacy in current U.S.-Russia-Ukraine dealings, explore how European powers are recalibrating in response, and warn of the corrosive creep of kleptocracy. Applebaum highlights Ukraine’s innovation and resilience, describes Europe’s awakening, and offers sharp perspective on how quickly institutions can be eroded—and how hard it is to fight back once complacency sets in. The episode is a sober, sometimes alarming, but ultimately insightful look at how global credibility and collective resistance are shaped in real time.