The Promised Podcast: “Gaza: Yesterday & Tomorrow” Edition

Date: August 6, 2025
Host: Noah Efron
Co-Hosts: Linda Gradstein, Gilad Halpern
Produced by: TLV1 Studios
(Transcript starts at content/ 00:00)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the enduring and evolving impact of the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza—20 years on—including its psychological, political, and security reverberations in Israeli society and its links to current events, like the October 7 attacks and judicial reform debates. The hosts also dissect the recent UN “High-Level International Conference for the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine and the Implementation of the Two State Solution,” examining what, if anything, its declarations could mean for Israelis and Palestinians. Throughout, the episode interweaves personal anecdotes, cultural references, and a heartfelt remembrance of the influential Israeli artist David Tartakover.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tribute to Graphic Artist David Tartakover

[09:04–32:57]

• Tartakover's Legacy: Noah Efron pays an emotional tribute to Israel's preeminent graphic artist, David Tartakover, who recently passed away. Tartakover’s art chronicled Israel’s modern political journey—its elation, its despair, its protest movements.
  • Iconic imagery discussed:
    • Peace Now (Shalom Achshav) Poster (1978): Merges religious and secular symbolism. "In his 'Peace Now' poster… Tartakover married religious and secular, traditional and revolutionary, establishment and subversive..." (16:13, Noah)
    • 1986 “Shoah” Poster: Features an aleph-turned-swastika echoing fears of cultural annihilation.
    • Mother (“Ima”): A photo juxtaposing a soldier and an elderly Palestinian woman, emphasizing shared humanity.
    • Rabin Assassination Poster (1997): “We will not forget, we will not forgive”—recently adapted for the aftermath of October 7.
  • Personal Reflection: “For years now, David Tartakover has given us bold images, mostly of despair.... But what he used his art to convey... became more and more about decay and corruption and loss... I spent this week looking at David Tartakover’s books... and I came to see that he was something different, something more than I had ever seen before.” (28:06, Noah)
  • Overall message: Tartakover’s love for Israel was inextricable from his worry for its future—his works were public acts of moral testimony.

2. 20 Years Since the Gaza Disengagement: Reflecting on Trauma, Process, and Legacy

[38:20–73:54]

a. Historical Background

[38:20–46:46]

• Summary:
  • August 2005: Israel unilaterally evacuates 21 Jewish communities in Gaza and four in the West Bank, forcibly uprooting ~9,000 settlers.
  • The operation, lasting about three weeks, was hastily planned and poorly coordinated, with minimal public consultation and internal debate.
  • Immediate trauma for both settlers and the soldiers enforcing the evacuation; many scenes of pain, protest, and bitter national division.
• Political process:
  • Ariel Sharon initiated the disengagement amid claims "there is no Palestinian partner" for peace talks.
  • The Knesset approved the plan despite opposition, after Sharon reshuffled his cabinet and bypassed calls for a public referendum.
  • “Approval of the plan progressed erratically… There were the party referendums, there were Knesset votes, there were coalitions falling apart.” (38:48, Linda)

b. Personal Stories and Emotional Fallout

[56:31–61:17]

• Linda’s Fieldwork:
  • Linda recounts covering the withdrawal, fasting on Tisha B’Av, and staying with a Gush Katif family.
  • “They said, ‘We’re not going to fight the soldiers’... The parents... were lovely, salt of the earth type people... The mother stopped the kids breaking windows, saying, ‘maybe we’re wrong. If it would lead to peace, I’d rather see a Palestinian family live here.’” (59:28, Linda)
  • The trauma for families was long-lasting, with many never recovering.
• Impact on Soldiers:
  • Psychological scars among the IDF—some soldiers, tasked with evicting families, broke down or even attempted suicide.
  • “There were 19- and 20-year-olds whose job was to take a mother breastfeeding her baby and drag her out of her house...” (62:48, Noah)

c. Political & Societal Consequences

[63:50–72:36]

• Breeding Distrust:
  • Many right-wing and religious Israelis felt betrayed by their government and institutions, eroding trust in Israeli democracy and the judiciary.
  • "It was a moment when a big portion of Israeli society... lost such faith as it had in its institutions." (69:33, Noah)
• Emergence of Radicalism:
  • Rise of “noar hagvaot”—youths now involved in West Bank violence—can be traced to the alienation and anger of this period.
• Retrospective Evaluations:
  • Questions remain: Was disengagement a “strategic disaster," as Gilad notes, or a courageous, necessary move?
  • Ongoing debate if the evacuation enabled the rise of Hamas; or, as Gilad argues, “the illusion that [Israel] could just switch the lock and throw away the key” to Gaza proved false (65:10).
  • "Had there been some sort of negotiated process in which the Palestinian Authority... could have taken over, it might have been different. But it was on purpose. That's what Israel was trying to avoid." (56:30, Linda & Gilad)
  • Many on the left "overlooked the genuine pain and suffering of the people who were being evacuated" for the sake of their desired outcome. (54:15, Noah)
• Link to Present Divides:
  • Disengagement seen as a root for today's deep schisms: in attitudes toward democracy, the “deep state,” and the judiciary, and arguably the template for the 2023-25 judicial reform controversy.
  • “Without this, we would not have the judicial reform that we have now.” (69:33, Noah)

3. The UN Two-State Solution Conference: Real Substance or Recycled Rhetoric?

[75:00–90:17]

a. Summary of the Conference and Statement

[75:16–81:59]

• The event: 20 states and organizations (including the Arab League, EU, France, and Saudi Arabia) convene to re-commit to a two-state solution.
• Main points:
  • Ceasefire, release of all hostages, exchange of prisoners, total Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and Hamas to relinquish control to the PA.
  • Commitments to economic aid, peacekeeping, and combating incitement in school curricula.
  • Israel is urged to halt all settlement activity and violence.
  • "[T]aking tangible, time bound and irreversible steps... for the establishment of an independent, sovereign, economically viable and democratic state of Palestine living side by side in peace and security with Israel..." (76:29, Outcome Document; summarized by Noah)

b. Analysis & Skepticism

[81:59–90:17]

• Feasibility Doubts:
  • “Is the two-state solution even viable at this point? … I’m really not sure. You have 500,000 Israelis living in the West Bank… are you going to move them?” (82:00, Linda)
  • International diplomacy often feels disconnected from realities on the ground in both societies.
  • “The international community has not been helpful in terms of this war… most Israelis and Palestinians don’t really take the international community all that seriously.” (83:27, Linda)
  • Both the Israeli government and Hamas would hate these proposals—Hamas especially, being ideologically opposed to a two-state outcome. “For Hamas, this is their worst nightmare if this were to come to pass.” (85:40, Noah)
• Hope in the Horizon:
  • Gilad notes that, despite the plan’s current “surreality,” such unified international positions matter for the future, particularly with generational shifts in US and European politics.
  • “Having some sort of political horizon has a value in and of itself.” (90:17, Gilad)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tartakover’s Art and Israeli Identity:

  • “Tartakover’s story is the story of Israel’s left: a story of growing tired and angry and disillusioned and convinced that all there is left for us to do is not to forget and not to forgive. But I was wrong about David Tartakover… In the end, he was a person who loved this place so much, he could not bear to see it changed or lost.” (29:40, Noah)

• On Disengagement Trauma:

  • “The mother stopped the kids breaking windows, saying, ‘Look, we think this is a bad government decision, but maybe we're wrong. And if it would lead to peace, I would rather see a Palestinian family in this house than for you to destroy it.’” (59:28, Linda)
  • “There was a soldier... who committed suicide, leaving a note: ‘I never knew the world could be such an ugly place.’” (62:48, Noah)

• On the Limits of International Diplomacy:

  • “The diplomatic, the international community has not been very helpful... most Israelis and Palestinians don’t really take the international community all that seriously.” (83:27, Linda)
  • “All we are saying is give peace a chance. But it seems like at this moment, we need to say something more.” (86:43, Noah)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:33–04:37] – Opening, Tel Aviv city council debate on Tisha B’Av, host introductions
• [09:04–32:57] – Tribute to David Tartakover
• [38:20–73:54] – 20th Anniversary of the Disengagement: Facts, legacy, trauma, and reflection
• [75:00–90:17] – UN Two-State Solution Conference analysis
• [92:43–105:33] – “What a Country!” segment: personal anecdotes about film festivals and Tisha B’Av gatherings

“What a Country!”: Personal Touches

[92:43–105:33]

• Gilad reminisces about Jerusalem’s film festival: a return to old passions and “a faint but welcome sign of normality in troubled times.” (95:50, Gilad)
• Linda’s Tisha B’Av experience: Reading Eicha overlooking Jerusalem, her family surrounded by the Muslim call to prayer—a moment of tension, then reflection and hope for coexistence.
  • “Instead of thinking about it as something scary, I’m going to think about it as something amazing... could we learn to have respect for their history and their sources? And of course, vice versa.” (99:20, Linda)
• Noah at Hostage Square on Tisha B’Av: Thousands reading Eicha, crossing boundaries of belief, tradition, and tribe.
  • “There is no single belief or song that all of us share, only the wish to be sitting on the ground in this place, with these people.” (105:11, Noah)

Summary Takeaways

• The Gaza Disengagement remains an open wound in Israeli history, shaping not just left/right politics but affecting the entire social fabric.
• The 2025 UN conference on Palestine highlights a global desire to turn the page—even as reality, on the ground, seems unmoved.
• The episode’s stories—of loss, anger, hope, protest, art, and gathering in the face of despair—reflect the podcast’s larger theme: loving a place that constantly challenges you, even as it sometimes “makes your blood boil.”

For those who haven’t listened:
This episode offers a rare combination of news analysis, personal storytelling, and deep cultural reflection—crystallizing what makes Israeli public life so agonizing, dynamic, and enduring.