The “More War, More Bloodshed” Edition

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Promised Podcast

Episode: "The ‘More War, More Bloodshed’ Edition"

Date: August 14, 2025
Host: TLV1 Studios
Participants: Noah Efron (A), Miriam Herschlag (B)

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Overview

This episode of The Promised Podcast grapples with Israel’s latest government decision to ramp up the war in Gaza, the resulting public backlash, and larger existential questions around conflict, unity, and protest in Israeli society. The hosts, with their signature blend of earnestness, cultural references, and dry wit, dissect the morality, logic, and fallout of these political choices, while reflecting on ways Israelis try to live and hope amidst darkness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Israeli Life, "Friends" Pop Culture, and Emotional Reality

• [00:33]–[06:58]
  • The episode opens with a characteristic mix of the serious and the whimsical. Noah describes the opening of a "Friends" pop-up in Tel Aviv, juxtaposing the show's escapist comfort with grim proximity to “Hostage Square.”
  • Miriam finds it notable how deeply "Friends" references have permeated Israeli culture, even among those who never actively watched it.
  • Noah shares a personal moment of waking on Shabbat Nachamu, hearing poet Nadav Halperin connect the Jewish love holiday of Tu B’Av and Shabbat Nachamu—a rare overlapping and a metaphor for private hope and national heartbreak.
  • Multiple cultural references—Rabbis, Isaiah, Coltrane, Kohelet, and philosophical reflections on Jerusalem as a city with a heart, not just a battleground.

Notable Quote

"[Isaiah] tries to speak to Jerusalem's heart, meaning that he thinks that that heart has not entirely gone bad, that even if it is not pure, there is still something there. The heart has not turned to stone." – Noah, quoting Nadav Halperin ([10:17])

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2. Main Topic 1: "More War, More Bloodshed" – The Government's Gaza Decision

• [17:54]–[46:05]

Cabinet’s Decision

• Details of the Plan ([23:25]):
  • Conquer Gaza City, aiming to force Hamas to surrender, release hostages, and pave way for a demilitarized, non-Hamas, non-PA civil government.
  • Hostages' families describe the plan as a "death sentence" for their loved ones.
  • The IDF Chief of Staff (Ayal Zamir) opposes the plan, proposing a more perimeter-based approach; his argument is that a direct assault increases the risk to hostages.
  • Global condemnation follows: Germany suspends weapons shipments, Australia recognizes Palestine, and numerous countries criticize or condemn the Israeli move.

Emotional and Moral Complexity

• Noah’s internal conflict:

  • Strongly against the logic of a ground campaign but feels compelled to be "all in" as a member of the collective.
  • Grapples with the abstraction of life and suffering in government decision-making:

    "It's really, really hard to think of... dozens and dozens of dead soldiers and hundreds or thousands of dead Gazans and God forbid, maybe 20 more dead hostages... and to get out of bed and say, 'yeah, I'm still in, because where else would I be?'" ([29:55])

• Miriam’s assessment:

  • Netanyahu operates as a "strategic thinker," seeing history and geopolitics on a grand scale.
  • The real cost—in lives, morality, and international standing—may be minimized for the sake of long-term regional realignment (such as Gulf alliances and disabling the Muslim Brotherhood).
  • Guest: “What could possibly go right in this kind of fighting?” ([36:05])
  • Calls out the "problem of evil" becoming normalized in public debate—when even decent people discuss “acceptable” civilian casualty ratios.

Notable Quotes

"One of the problems of evil is the way it splatters onto everyone... it becomes like a talking point argument. And normal people are having this conversation—and you suddenly hear things coming out of your mouth or out of the mouths of people who, you know to be perfectly fine, moral, upstanding humans..." – Miriam ([39:37])

“I don’t think the prime minister does much factor in the lives of Gazans, I think, for sure, but also not soldiers and hostages.” – Noah ([32:06])

Israel’s Public and Political Divide

• Stark polarization: Only a minority of the population supports the cabinet decision, but debate feels futile; the value of “human life” and “national security” exist on incompatible moral scales.
• Disillusionment with the perpetual cycle—the “no good choices, only bad ones.”

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3. Main Topic 2: "Shut It Down" – The Strike Debate

• [46:05]–[67:15]

The Call for Strike

• Hostages’ families call for a general strike to protest the government's latest decision: “Silence kills. The time has come to bring the country to a halt.”
• The largest union (Histadrut) declines to join, although many tech firms and local councils indicate support.
• Noah and Miriam discuss whether mass work stoppages, rather than demonstrations, are an appropriate and effective means of protest.

Efficacy, Legitimacy, and Class

• Noah argues a strike is unlikely to change government policy, but acknowledges expression of dissent is vital.

• Expresses discomfort with the subtext he hears: a socioeconomic, Ashkenazi, tech/university elite flexing economic muscle after losing political ground in Knesset.

  "We control the economy. You control the government, but we control the economy. And if you push us too far, we will shut that shit down." – Noah ([54:35])

• Miriam notes strikes can be a substitute for democratic recourse when elections are too distant and the government disregards public will and court oversight.

On Soldiers’ Conscience

• Miriam suggests one function of strikes/protests is to relieve soldiers of the burden of civil disobedience, keeping social dissent in the civilian realm instead of fracturing the army ([61:18]).

Participation Dilemmas

• The hosts themselves struggle with the ethics and morals of participating in the strike: Is it more meaningful than mass demonstrations? Is it dangerous for representing only a privileged “we”? Is it justified given the depth and urgency of crisis?

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4. Voda Country: “Things That Brought Us Solace or Delight”

• [68:15]–[81:14]

Miriam: The “Chance to Meet” Initiative

• A cross-border art and music project connecting Israelis and Gazans, collaborating digitally and in occasional meetings abroad.
• Songs, dance, clowning, and film made together—fighting “learned helplessness” through creative, human connection.

“But seeing people still daring to create together, across borders, across grief, reminds me that despair isn’t the only option.” – Miriam ([75:42])

Noah: Shapira’s Shade Project

• Neighborhood activists organize to demand more shade in Tel Aviv; logistical barriers (pipes, narrow streets) seem insurmountable.
• Noah connects them with young plant scientists innovating shallow-rooted vine solutions for shade.

  “Plants do amazing things. You just gotta work with them, you just gotta learn them, you just gotta find a way to communicate with them, to cooperate with them, to trust them.” – Yuval Godolter ([81:14])

• The story closes with hope: “There is always something to do.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Enduring in the Collective:

  “I’m part of this people that was attacked so horribly... And if this is what this people... has decided to do, then I’m part of that too. And the last thing that I’m going to say now or ever, I think is, ‘not in my name’. I’m part of this thing. That’s it.” – Noah ([29:55])

• On Protest’s Moral Weight:

  “Maybe it’s as close as we can get without an election or referendum to a public vote of no confidence.” – Miriam ([58:11])

• On Creative Resistance:

  “They are fighting their own war. A rebellion, really, against... learned helplessness... But seeing people still daring to create together... reminds me that despair isn’t the only option.” – Miriam ([75:42])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:33–06:58] — Opening, Friends Pop Up, Cultural commentary
• [06:58–17:54] — Personal reflection, Tub’Av and Shabbat Nachamu, “speaking to the heart of Jerusalem”
• [17:54–46:05] — Topic 1: Gaza assault decision, reactions, deep dives on morality and strategy
• [46:05–67:15] — Topic 2: Hostages’ families call for a strike, debate over efficacy, legitimacy, and public protest
• [68:15–81:14] — Voda Country: Sources of solace/hope
• [81:14–84:42] — Outro, World Lizard Day, humor

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Tone and Language

• Warmly intellectual, reflective, sometimes sardonic; deeply personal at points; not shy of expressing ambivalence, pain, or hope.
• Pop culture and highbrow references, philosophical digressions, and a willingness to let existential questions blend with the mundane.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a window into the Israeli experience at a moment of profound conflict—caught between collective trauma, political impasses, and the ever-present search for hope and solidarity. The hosts dissect both the large and small dilemmas facing Israeli society—whether in the morality of war, the modes of protest, or the comfort found in art, plants, or humor. Through it all, the message emerges: even amidst dread and darkness, “there is always something to do.”

Transcript

[A]

Today is day 678 which are 95 weeks and 5 days of the captivity of still 50 hostages living and dead in Gaza.

This is TLV1. This episode may contain explicit language.

Welcome to the Promise Podcast brought to you on TLV1, the voice of the city that this week saw the grand opening of the much anticipated Friends Pop up store at the Azraeli Market in Sirona, right next to the most excellent, most hip Shufre shoe store. Which Friends Pop Up Place includes, as you would expect, selfie ready photo op spots so you can post to your instouche a pin of you relaxing in a full scale replica of the sofa relaxed upon so often by Ross and Rachel, Chandler and Joey and Monica and Phoebe. And you will also find an actual coffee shop where you can get actual coffee inspired by the coffee and fare at Central Perk, the fabled third place of the Friends series having all the qualities. Sociologist Ray Oldenfeld says that a third place after your home, that's your first place. After your work, that's your second place. These traits being that it is open and inviting, comfortable and informal, convenient, unpretentious, has regulars, is a place mostly of conversation, wherein laughter is frequent. Which list of qualities makes you wonder of Central Perk? Could it be any more of a third place? But I digress. And the Friends Pop up place in Sirona has got, of course because the people at Sirona are not made of stone, A gift shop filled chockablock with Friends merch, which merch includes but is not limited to Central Perk T shirts in various styles, how youw Doing T shirts and journals, Central Perk and Friends mugs, a friend's baseball cap embroidered with a plucked turkey fitted with a fez and comically oversized sunglasses. That image taken from season five episode eight, the One with all the Thanksgivings in which Joey puts a turkey carcass on his head to scare Chandler, but then Joey can't get the turkey off his head. Oh Joey Tribbiani never change. And there are books of Friends stick and a Central Perk welcome mat and a friend's pencil case. In short, you can meet all your needs for friends opportunities and for friend Xenalia. There at the coffee shop you will find Phoebe's grandmother's chocolate chip cookies from season seven, episode three, the One With Phoebe's Cookies. And there is Chandler's stolen New York cheesecake, quote unquote. That of course from season seven episode 11, the one with all the Cheesecakes. Then there is Rachel Green's English trifle from season six episode 11 the one where Ross got High and and this one is maybe the farthest fetched of them all. You will find in the coffee shop. Roglach Inspired by Season 3 Episode 3 the One with the Jam Because Joey loves jam. What's not to like?

[B]

Custard, good.

[A]

Jam, good. Meat, good.

And if I can use this opportunity to speak personally for just a moment from the heart, I would just say that no one told me that life was gonna be this way. It's like we're always stuck in second gear and it hasn't been our day, our week, our month, or even our year. But this, Friends pop up. It is there for us. And arguably nothing captures the deliriously weird and weirdly delirious spirit of this city we love so well. Tel Aviv Biafo. Better than making the 10 minute walk from hostage Square right off the art museum to a facsimile of a fictional coffee shop fictionally just around the corner from Washington Square park to experience fellowship with beloved if fictional characters. Because life here, if it had a title of the sort preferred by the show, Life Here would be called the One with Everything from Everywhere and All At Once. With us today in TLV1's newest satellite studio in the Bizarron neighborhood of the city is a woman who, like Phoebe, is whimsical and warm with a knack for finding poetry in the odd corners of life. And like Chandler, can bring down a room with a perfectly timed line she could not. And like Monica, she does what she does with intensity, precision and care. And like Ross, she never loses faith in love itself. And she has Rachel's charisma. And like Joey, she is blessed with an unguarded generosity of spirit and an ability to make you or anyone at any time feel at home. Obviously. And I think you know this, that woman could only be Miriam Herzlag. Miriam Herzlag is the OPS and blogs editor of the Times of Israel, creating and presiding over the biggest and most profound forum of Jewish discourse and debate since the Talmud is codified. Miriam was in the past the anchor of the Israel Broadcast Authority English Language Television News and an editor and anchor for the Israel Broadcast Authority English Language Radio News. Miriam, as I always say. But it has never been more apropos than today. How you doing?

[B]

I'm okay. It's interesting to me because I pretty much missed the 10 year run at the time of Friends and it's been off the air for 21 years, I think, and didn't really sit down and catch up too much. And yet I believe I may have caught every single reference, and I do not know how I know them, but I do.

[A]

It is very much in the air for me. My own children watched, I think, every single episode of the Thing, and probably more than once. So I heard it all from the kitchen. Now, as for me, my name is Noah Ephron and I don't mean to boast, but the two movies that I am at the moment most eager to see are Freakier Friday and Spinal Tap 2. And please do not take me to be bragging. God knows my folks taught me better than that. But I think that I am one of those people who, as they get older, still say terribly au courant about culture, not just attending with stunted nostalgia only to art that moved me when I was young and everything was new, but also remaining keenly attuned to the sequels and the reboots of the art that moved me when I was young and everything was new. And I think that for me, that has made all the difference. Today we got two topics of such extreme and potent originality that our lawyers have insisted that we copyright them. But first we have this matter that we are following with alert interest and great concern as part of an occasional series we like to call the Promise Podcast, Ponders, Comfort, Coltrane, Kohelet, Kabbalah, and the Cardiology of the commonplace.

It was 5:30 in the morning on Friday and I was hazy with sleep and codeine that igal my doctor prescribed for whatever I did to my back. He said, look, I went to the Sackler School of Medicine, and like all students who studied at Sackler, I signed a contract that I would prescribe opioids to all my patients every day. Now, hazy with sleep and codeine, I turned on the radio with the thought the news will shake me awake. I turned on Rechet Bet, which fills its mornings with actualiya items of the day. And what there was was a young poet named Nadav Halperin, and what he was saying was that Shabbat would start in just a few hours, and that Shabbat on this day last Friday was two things. It was two Beav and it was Shabbat Nachamu to be Av, the 15th day of the month of Av is the holiday of love. It has been ever since the Mishnah. It comes at the start of the grape harvest. And in the Mishnah in the Tractate of Ta' enit, or Fast Days, it says at chapter four, beginning at verse eight that Rabban Shimon Ben Gamliel says that on Tuba Av the daughters of Jerusalem go out dressed in white and dance in the vineyards. The white dress is borrowed, so that the people who came to see and fall in love with the dancing woman could not know from how fine her dress which of the daughters grew up having all they needed and wanted, and which of the daughters grew up wanting and needing so much that they would never have on that day anyway. Tuba, the day when people danced and people fell in love. You could not tell by looking who had and who did not. You could fall in love with the dancer, but not with the dowry. Shabbat Nachamu is the first Shabbat after the three weeks and after Tisha Bavaria, a time of mourning over the destructions of the temples and the exiles of Israel. On Shabbat Nachamu the mourning is over and the Book of Isaiah is read for the Haftarah, a portion that starts with the words Nachamu, Nachamu ami. Take comfort, take comfort, my people. After weeks of lament, this is the start of weeks of consolation. And the two things, Tub and Shabbat nachamu, they never fall far from one another. Both come soon after Tisha B'Av. But it only happens maybe one time in every 10 that tuba and Shabbat Nachamu fall on exactly the same day, like they did last Shabbat. Like Nadav Halpern was talking about, the next time this will happen is on July 29, 2045, and after that it will happen on July 25, 2048, and after that, on August 10, 2052. And so it is that when fuzzy on sleep and codeine last, I hear the poet Nadav Halperin. What I hear him saying is this.

There is, I think, something so Precise about the 15th day of AV being a day in which, on the one hand, private people go out in search of the love of their life, and on the other hand, it is also a time of national unity. That is to say, we want love to find a way, even though it is at odds with worldly realpolitik. And it seems like something that you are forced to leave outside the window of public life and diplomatic calculations. Despite all that, we still want love to be something which is part both of the private sphere and the public sphere. And if we are talking to the public, this portion's Haftarah, the first of the great haftarot of consolation, the prophet Isaiah, who also prophesied for us destruction and who was the great critic of what happened in Jerusalem. As far as he was concerned, those who went to the temple in a Jerusalem rife with corruption before the first temple was destroyed were trampling the court of the house of God. And yet now the same Isaiah comes to console us. Take comfort, take comfort, my people, your God will say, and how much today do we need someone to say to us, Take comfort, take comfort, my people, in this time, in our time. And then Isaiah said, these words, speak to the heart of Jerusalem and call unto her the heart of Jerusalem. Jerusalem, the city, meaning the multitudes of the city, the people of the city, the culture of the city. This is not some faceless thing we look at through the eyes of technocrats, but Jerusalem, it has a heart. Me, it always reminds me of Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlaw who says, every single thing has a heart, and the entire world, it has a heart. That is a bombshell of a thing to say. Every single thing has a heart. In the sacred texts, the heart is the center, it is the middle, and it is in fact, the seat of our knowledge. But as Jewish thought grew longer and deeper, the heart became the place of our most gentle, subtle emotions. And what Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlav is telling us is, even in a world that seems coarse, you can find the source of your pain, the place of your longing, you can find that gentle place. Isaiah tries to speak to the heart of Jerusalem. You can speak to the heart. There's another thing, though, in that statement. Speak to the heart of Jerusalem. I already said that. This is the same Isaiah who said harsh things about Jerusalem. It is a place of bloodshed. It is a place of corruption. And despite all that, he tries to speak to Jerusalem's heart, meaning that he thinks that that heart has not entirely gone bad, that even if it is not pure, there is still something there. The heart has not turned to stone. Isaiah believes that in the world of humans, even when it seems like things have gone hard, you need to know to seek out the heart. After the wars and after the worst possible things, and after the most terrible sins, our sins, there is still a heart to speak to. End quote. And I am still hazy with sleep and Codeine. I know the radio is meant to be playing the news, and I can't quite dope out what it is that I'm hearing and why it feels like a dream. And I'm still in bed and it is still dark. And then the song Nachamu Take Comfort, it comes on.

And after that, Nadav Halperin is back, and he says.

We are in a world with what? To long for a world of voices beseeching us and wouldst that we knew how to answer them. And I want to end with a poem. And it's strange to call it that, because in truth it is just verses from Qohelet, the book of Ecclesiastes. But Pinchas Sade, the great poet, novelist and anthologist of Hasidic folktales, published the collection he called Ahavah Love. And if you look at the COVID it looks like what it says is Pinchas Ahava Sada. He chose to put in the collection these verses from the book of Qohelet, to set them out on the page like they were a poem. Because in the book of Qohelet, with all its feeling that human existence is pointless, what is left, as far as Kohelet can see, on the one hand, there is existential despair. But if there is something that cuts the existential despair, the pain of the existential despair, it is love. I will read the words of Qohelet that were laid out like a poem by Pinchasadeh. And after I read them, I will leave you to the wondrous sounds of the saxophone of the one and only John Coltrane, his song like someone in love. And now the poem Pinchas Sade called With a woman whom you loved from Kohelet. Because those who are alive know that they will die, and the dead, they know nothing, and they no longer benefit from what they do, for their memory is forgotten. Their loves and their hatreds and their jealousies too, these are all already lost, and they no longer have a part in all that is done under the sun. You though, go and eat your bread with joy and drink your wine with a full heart. God wants these things that you do. May you always wear white, and may there be oil to anoint your head. Enjoy life with a woman you love. All your days of mere breath given to you under the sun, all your days of breathing, this is your share in life and of the efforts you make under the sun. End quote. And after that, what comes on the radio is this.

And as I listened to all of this, the sunroof, I used to love turning on the radio first thing in the morning. What all happened here in the world while I was asleep? And now I hate turning on the radio first thing in the morning. What all happened here in the world while I was asleep? And I don't know what happened to the news on last Friday morning? It felt like a dream. Norman Maclean wrote, at sunrise everything is luminous but not clear. And it was all luminous Shimon Ben Gamliel and Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlaw and Emmanuel Levinas and Kohelet and Coltrane and and the beating heart of Jerusalem and the graphic layout of the COVID of a 40 year old book that made love the middle name of the poet Pinchas Sadeh. And most of all, the world of voices beseeching us, beseeching us, beseeching us. And like Nadav Halperin said, wouldst that we knew how to answer them.

Today, two topics up for discussion. The first topic More war, more bloodshed, as this week the Diplomatic and Security Cabinet, at the urging of the Prime Minister, decided to conquer Gaza City in a move aimed at causing Hamas to lay down its guns, return all the hostages, hand over control over a demilitarized Gaza Strip to a civil government not under their leadership or that of the Palestinian Authority, and leaving the ID at outposts in the Strip that give them oversight over security. Estimates are that the new offensive, which the IDF chief of staff opposes, will take at least six months and will cost lives of Gazans, of Israeli soldiers and of hostages. We will ask what is the logic behind so woeful a decision? And the second topic, shut it down. As in response to the Cabinet decision to conquer Gaza City, some hostage family groups call for a general strike, which the country's biggest union declines to join, but for which lots of companies and organizations, universities and such, have expressed their support, my social media has filled with pro strike memes saying we are shutting Israel down and we will wonder what it means to try to shut down the country in response to a Cabinet decision about how to fight the war and whether or not this is a wise idea. And for our most unreasonably generous Patreon supporters, in our extra special special extra discussion, the link to which you can find in our show Notes on your podcast app or at patreon.com promisepodcast on the world Wide Web. We will talk about an essay by former Labor Party speaker of the Knesset Avramborg called Jews Rebel now, in which he writes that Israel is today the purveyor of, quote, a cultural mutation that dares to call itself Judaism. To stand with them is to follow a separ, separatist supremacist culture, a world where non Jews are reviled and Jews are chosen and exalted. Now is the time to walk out of the city as Yohanan Ben Zakay did, and rekindle a Judaism of morality and humanity. Here is how we can begin. We need 1 million Jews less than 10% of the global Jewish population to file a joint appeal in the International Court of Justice in the Hague, a collective legal complaint against the State of Israel for crimes against humanity committed in our name and under the false banner of our Jewish identity. In our appeal we shall declare we will not allow the State of Israel, which systematically inflicts violence upon a civilian population, to speak in our name. We will not allow Judaism to be a cover for crimes. We will hear the most ancient call, where art Thou? And will respond like Leonard Cohen responding Hineni, I am ready my Lord, end quote. For the record, by the way, and I did the research even before Leonard Cohen said Hineni, there is actual written record of Abraham saying exactly the same thing, though there is no record of him having anything to do with tea and oranges that come all the way from China, which of course we will discuss in this extra segment. But before we get to any of that, please listen to this.

That song is Shir Hafrecha, the old Ofra chaza song from 1979 written by Tzvika Pik that has been covered literally 30 times since then. And most interestingly, just this month in what yout Heard by Eden Ben Zaken. Picking up where we left off last week, we will this week be playing brand new versions of songs from the 1970s and 1980s over the course of the show. But now it is time for first discussion. So Miriam, the government just took the brave and creative decision to keep fighting this time until we defeat Hamas for realsies kiss our pinkies to the sky.

[B]

Yeah. The Prime Minister's office tweeted this just before five in the morning on Friday, quote the Security Cabinet has approved the Prime Minister's proposal to defeat Hamas. The IDF will prepare to take over Gaza City while providing humanitarian aid outside the area of the fighting. The Cabinet adopted by a majority vote this is still the tweet. These five principles for ending the war 1 disarming of Hamas 2 return of all the hostages, living and dead alike 3 demilitarization of the Gaza Strip 4 Israeli security control of the Gaza Strip and 5 creation of a civil government that is administered by neither Hamas nor the Palestinian Authority. An absolute majority of the Cabinet ministers determined that the alternative plan that was presented to the Cabinet would not achieve the defeat of Hamas or the return of the hostages, end quote. That ostensibly ineffective alternative plan that was presented to the Cabinet was presented by IDF Chief of Staff Ayal Zamir. His plan was for the IDF to withdraw to a perimeter of the Gaza Strip while keeping intact several security corridors through which the army could act if Hamas tried to reconstitute itself, rearm and rebuild its tunnel system. In a leaked quote from the cabinet meeting, Zamir reportedly suggested the ministers remove the return of the hostages from the list of battle aims, his point being that conquering Gaza City would lead to the deaths of the hostages. In a press conference days after the Cabinet decision, Prime Minister Netanyahu said, our goal is not to occupy Gaza. Our goal is to free Gaza, free it from Hamas terrorists. The war can end tomorrow if Hamas lays down its arms and releases all the remaining hostages. But given Hamas's refusal to lay down its arms, Israel has no choice but to finish the job and complete the defeat of Hamas. The prime minister said that his plan to defeat Hamas is to dismantle the two remaining Hamas strongholds in Gaza City and the central camps, starting by first enabling the civilian population to safely leave the combat areas to designated safe zones. In these safe zones, they'll be given ample food, water and medical care. With civilians secure in safe zones, the IDF can then route out Hamas. Netanyahu described Gaza City as as the last true fortress left to Hamas in Gaza and said that once you collapse that center of gravity, Hamas would fall apart. As for who would replace Hamas running Gaza, the prime minister said it would not be Israel and it would also not be the Palestinian Authority, which according to Netanyahu wants, like Hamas, only to destroy Israel. The prime minister instructed the IDF to prepare to conquer Gaza City. Estimates are that the preparation for the assault on the city will take a month or two, and that the operation itself itself will take about half a year. Most reactions to the prime minister's plan for Gaza have been negative, starting with relatives of the hostages, the hostages and missing persons. Family. Forum called the decision a death sentence. A Nav Tsungaoker, whose son Matan was kidnapped on October 7 from his girlfriend's home in Kibbutz near Oz, and who has been held hostage in Gaza ever since, slammed the plan at this week's demonstration.

This past Thursday, the Cabinet sealed the fate of the hostages. Those who are alive will be murdered and those who are dead will disappear forever. This is not a diplomacy and security cabinet. It is the Cabinet of death. If you conquer parts of the strip and hostages are murdered, your hands, Mr. Prime Minister, will be covered with the blood of our hostages and soldiers inside Gaza. Palestinians responded to the cabinet decision with a kind of resigned despair. There's an Associated Press video from a DP tent camp in Gaza City. Addressing Netanyahu, a Man named Assad, AKA Mustafa, says, kill all you want. You've been at it for two years. You've killed children, the elderly. You've killed all of Gaza and you haven't benefited. Hamas warned that his decision to occupy Gaza would amount to, quote, sacrificing the hostages. Leaders around the world were critical of Prime Minister Netanyahu's plan to conquer what is now unconquered in Gaza. Antonio Costa, President of the European Council, said the decision undermines fundamental principles of international law and universal values. German Chancellor Friedrich Merz announced Germany was halting the shipment of all military equipment to Israel. Australia said it would recognize a Palestinian state. There was condemnation from France, the uk, China, Egypt, Turkey and lots of other places that matter. And back in Israel, lots of criticism. Opposition head Yair Lapid, in a press conference directly after the Prime Minister's press conference, said that owing to the cabinet decision, the hostages will die, soldiers will die, the economy will fall apart and our international standing will collapse. Criticism of Prime Minister Netanyahu's plans also came from his far right wing coalition partners. Finance Minister and head of the Religious Zionism party Bazalel Smotrich announced that he had lost faith in the Prime Minister's commitment to vanquishing Hamas and resettling Gaza with Jews. Reports leaked from the cabinet meeting are that Smotrich suggested to the Prime Minister that if the plan under consideration was the best he could do, maybe it was time for new elections. Noah, what should we make of all this? Why do you think Prime Minister Netanyahu has so firmly decided to keep fighting Hamas instead of ending this awful war?

[A]

Oh, Miriam, this is an especially hard moment for me. And can I just say this one thing? From the beginning, I never thought that strafing with planes and marching through Gaza, blowing up buildings and killing all sorts of people was going to get us anywhere good. I didn't think this on the 8th of October and not since. But what I said back then and what ever since is I'm all in. This is what we are doing now. And I'm not going to criticize it because, well, first of all, what do I know? And because even more, I'm part of this people that was attacked so horribly, so brutally, and where so many people were hurt and killed. And if this is what this people that I'm part of, this collective has decided to do, then I'm part of that too. And the last thing that I'm going to say now or ever, I think is not in my name, I'm part of this thing. That's it. I mean, I go to the demonstrations and say, stop the war now. Bring back the hostages now. But until that happens, I'm part of this whole thing. I'm part of this war. I'm part of the we that is fighting this war. And the decision that you described this week, after all, well, it's still the same. I'm still part of this thing. But this week, the decision that you described, it has been the hardest ever, I think, since the first shock of all those horrible people being killed on October 7th. I'm still here because it's the only place I can be. It's the only place I'll ever be. But it is really hard. It is really, really hard to think of, to imagine what are they talking about six more months and dozens and dozens of dead soldiers and hundreds or thousands of dead Gazans and God forbid, maybe 20 more dead hostages. And to think of all of that and to get out of bed in the morning and to say, like I say, yeah, I'm still in, because where else would I be? It's really, really hard. And having said all that, no, I.

[B]

Don'T think I've ever heard you talk that way. Way.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Yeah. Well, I mean, from the beginning.

I never said that I support the ground, that I think the ground war is a good idea, because I never did, but I always completely supported it. But having said that, you asked why Prime Minister Netanyahu decided to do all that you described. And I think the answer is just what he said, because he thinks maybe if we evacuate the million odd gaz from the areas that we really haven't crushed before, Gaza City and Shati and Jabalya and Nusayrat and all those camps around, and then if we pound what's left to dust like we've done in so many other places and kill or capture whatever fighters are left, then maybe Netanyahu thinks there will be nothing left of Hamas and then maybe it'll be possible to declare victory and move on to whatever comes next. And I think if you don't much factor in the lives of Gazans or the lives of soldiers and the lives of hostages or Israel standing in the world, then that is a position that makes some sense. And who knows, it could actually produce a future that 25 years down the road or even 10 or even five is in some way better for Israel. And I don't think the prime minister does much factor in the lives of Gazans, I think, for sure, but also not soldiers and hostages. He's gotten very, very close almost to saying that and people to saying, look, this is bigger than the lives of any particular people. I think he cares about those people. I think he wants to save them. But they're clearly not the most important thing. And once you say that none of those people, not the Gazans, not the hostages, not the soldiers, they're not the most important thing, I can see how you can get to the decision that he gets to, which is that we're just going to erase Hamas to the last person, no matter what. I also think that Netanyahu hopes that Gaza is going to fold before they get hunted down in Gaza City and in Jabalya, though I imagine that he, like me, knows that that probably is not going to happen. But I think that that's what he's thinking. His cost benefit analysis doesn't really see the cost of all those people dying as being so great that you can't do it. What do you think?

[B]

I think. I think it's probably useful to bring out that division between tactical and strategic thinking. And whatever we can say else about Benjamin Netanyahu in terms of his goals of keeping himself in power, I think we can reliably say that he views himself as a strategic thinker and that what he's seeing is sort of imagine that you're the, you're the chief of staff and you have your eyes exactly on the soldiers and their materiel and what they can do and what an alley looks like and whether a D9 can actually knock down a building. And that's your, you know, that's the aperture through which you are seeing this conflict with some horror. And then you switch that whole view around to someone like Netanyahu, who is looking at this from a regional and historic sweep kind of viewpoint. And he's seeing that he has managed to topple or to allow the toppling or enable the toppling of the Syrian regime and to decapitate Hezbollah in Lebanon and to severely hamper and delay the aid.

Of Iran and other proxies. And this is an absolute transformative, regionally, geopolitically transformative moment. He sees himself as part of history, and he sees, in the long run, if not the near run, a possibility of.

An alliance with, with the Gulf countries who will say what you're doing in Gaza is terrible, but who perhaps really want to see what he's doing come through, as would Egypt, which will complain about the treatment of Palestinians. But as we know, Egypt never cared about Palestinians and would not like to see Hamas be able to declare victory, which would be a victory for the Muslim Brotherhood and very destabilized, additionally destabilizing to the Egyptian government, which is already tottering and similar issues for Jordan. So that's, I think, how he's seeing it. And I don't think he, I agree with you that he does, you know, would like very much, especially an Entebbe style rescue operation. I will say one of the more cynical things we hear is this idea that Israel rescued 200 of the kidnapped hostages when of course we know that many of them were not exactly rescued and the deaths of quite a number of them can be attributed to Israeli actions. So there's a lot of cynicism in how this is described. But I just think if you step back and ask, I'm not sure right now a urban guerrilla warfare with high rise, these buildings, even if they do manage to evacuate say half of those million people in Gaza City. This is not a question of what could possibly go wrong. It's like what could possibly go right in this kind of fighting. And I'm with you on the horror of what this would mean for Israel in terms of a cost that's human, moral, political, financial, very much reputational.

[A]

One of the.

Tragedies, I guess maybe at the margins of all the bigger tragedies of all this is given what you just described, it's an issue that almost can't really be talked about constructively or debated. It's like there are these two completely different worlds and worldviews. There's different scales of time and there's different evaluations of what a human life is worth and what is important. And it just means that you have whomever it's, I think a pretty small minority of Israelis, maybe 20, 25% who support this decision of the cabinet. But you have this group of people who see the world one way and then you have a group of people who see the world in the other way. Where we're looking at what's happening now and the lives of the people who have names that we know.

And about the deaths that we're seeing on our social media in Gaza all the time.

That bother us, do we want to be the author of that? And the world pulling out and people like Avram Borg saying that to be a Jew today is to, you know, is to put Israel on trial in an international court. And we, you know, so that this other group of which I'm a, you know, I'm one of them, sees these things in a completely different way. And then there's Just like it can't. There's nothing to discuss, it seems.

[B]

Well, one thing you can say about, you know, the Israeli scene is that we will not stop discussing it. But one of the things I think everyone agrees on is that the set of choices presented to us also on October 8th and now were always a very bad set of choices. And the other thing I think that's really important to say is that one of the problems of evil is the way it splatters onto everyone. And one of the qualities of evil is for it to become quotidian and just normal conversation to discuss whether or not to withhold food from Gaza, for example. And it becomes like a talking point argument. And normal people are having this conversation and you suddenly hear things coming out of your mouth or out of the mouths of people who, you know to be perfectly fine, moral, upstanding humans. And they're talking about, well, is it okay to kill 80,000 or is it okay, what's an acceptable non combatant combatant ratio, death ratio? And we all get involved in these conversations.

And I think these are necessary. I mean, this is what happens. We cannot be outside of that. And so I don't have the feeling that you have that it was never a good idea to go into Gaza. I don't see that we had any choice but to invade Gaza. On some level, I did think it would be like the other Gaza wars and it would end in two months. And I remember at the time someone interviewed me and I made the mistake of being allowed to ask sort of military strategy questions and try to respond, which is just, you know, I'm really not my expertise. But I was asked, well, isn't this going to be Israel's Vietnam? And I remember thinking like, well, what a crazy thing, you know, what, what do you mean? And this is two years ago, right? Almost two years ago. And I'm thinking like, no, of course not. I mean, you know, Vietnam. And I think of all the. I'm very literal and sometimes, oh, that was completely different. And they're, you know, far away, they're not our neighbors. And. And it's all very small. It's tiny compared to these other conflicts. It's not Chechnya and Russia.

And here we are really on the verge of where the Vietnam comparison starts to become salient, where you get into the mud again. Tunnel warfare, guerrilla warfare, urban warfare.

And also the problem of asymmetrical warfare, where all Hamas has to do is kind of survive. All they have to do is not wave a white flag in order to be victorious in order to go down in the history of the Palestinian people as the great victors against the giant Goliath. And so as much as you stamp with your Goliath foot, which we do have, it is such a, a seems to be such a no immediate win situation at least certainly from the tactical point of view.

[A]

Yeah, I wish that I believed that what we are going to do in Gaza City is fight house to house, street to street combat. What I think we're going to do is make Gaza City look like Rafiach, just give people time to leave and then I think the city will be reduced to rolling.

[B]

It'll be done as a bombing a Dresden mostly.

[A]

But again, what do I know? I'll just end by saying.

For me, what you described as what's worse about the worst thing about evil or one of the terrible things about evil is that it ends up splattering upon all of us. As you said to me, that's the great consolation of living through an event where there are only terrible choices, where you have no choice but to do something that is terrible is that it's all of us, it's not them.

And I am somehow morally pure. It's me. And I find in that a consolation. I find as though that makes me feel as though I have a voice and I find as though it makes me feel as though I like everyone will have what to do when this is all over and standing to do it because I'm splattered with whatever we've done done as much as as anyone. Yep. Now listen to this.

That song is high. Another ofrahaza song from back in the day this past week put out by Omer Adam, who is my favorite singer, I think from North Carolina maybe except for Nina Simone. Nina Simone and Omer Adam. They're my favorite singers from North Carolina. And it raises a question why all these songs from the 70s and 80s at this moment. But we'll leave that aside. And now it is time for our second topic which we are calling Shut it down. And here is why. Groups representing families of the hostages in Gaza held a press conference at Hostage Square this week where they called for a one day general strike next Sunday that will gum up as many things as possible. Hospitals and clinics, buses and trains, stores, restaurants, childcare and daycare and day camps, the works. The purpose would be to protest the government's decision that we just talked about to expand the war into Gaza City and to extend it by months and months. At the press conference, leaders of the group like Reute Reicht Edri, whose boy Ido Edri was murdered at Nova Festival, said, quote, silence kills. The time has come to bring the country to a halt. We will all pause next Sunday and say, enough. Stop the war, Return the hostages, end quote. The purpose of the strike, the organizers say, is, quote, to save the lives of the hostages and prevent further families from joining the bereaved, end quote. Of course, the fact that groups representing families of the hostages have called for the strike does not in itself guarantee that the strike will take place. The Histadrut, a federation of labor organizations, the huge umbrella union of 800,000 workers, which last year called a one day general strike to press Prime Minister Netanyahu to sign a ceasefire and hostage exchange agreement with Hamas and then was taken to court and rebuked in the court for doing that, has so far refused to join the call to go on strike. What's more, the biggest of all the groups representing the loved ones of the abducted Israelis, the Hostages and Missing families forum, they have not yet decided if they would join the strike. And mostly I think that they are staying mum about that. That said, important groups are already in on the strike. A protest group that calls itself the High Tech Forum endorsed the strike. Big high tech companies like WIX and Fiverr and not quite so big high tech companies like Natural Intelligence and Mint Media, Fireblocks, Big id, Papaya Global, Ramping, and I could go on and on and on saying similarly seemingly random sounding syllables. And don't get me started on the acronyms like nfx. They are joining the strike. All these companies and many more have said that they will let their employees decide whether or not to work without asking anyone to use up vacation days if they don't. Essentially giving people the day off if they want to join the strike. In city halls around the country, discussions are being discussed about whether or not to give give municipal employees the day off out of respect for the strike. The overarching organization of municipal employees said that they were not endorsing the strike, but that they understood that some of their members would participate in the strike. As we record, there is no way to know how much the strike will or will not be felt. But there is maybe a more fundamental question here. I argued about it last night with Susan for some time. Is it the right thing to do to try to bring the country to a halt, even just for a day? Or what some hope will become a day or two days a week from now forward to protest a cabinet decision about how to fight the war in Gaza and whether and when to end it. Even among the groups of loved ones, of hostages, there is no consensus on on this point. Miriam, what do you think that I ought to think about this?

[B]

Noah, you should think that this strike might be just what the doctor ordered. And you should also.

Consider the possibility that it could be a terrible idea, which is why we should discuss it. Look, I think the question is, what is it about this moment?

You started by saying in our last conversation that this had a qualitative.

Difference. And we've had months and months of awfulness, including in March a decision.

To stop aid to Gaza. We had what sparked the last strike, which was the slaughter of the six Beautiful Ones in the tunnel, including Hirsch. And days later there was a strike.

And so what is it about.

This moment? And I do think it's a clear inflection point in terms of the military plan. And I also think it's somewhat of an inflection point in terms of the public discourse coming from people who know what they're talking about.

I do give a lot of weight to the fact that there is.

From those coming out of the military establishment that are now free, they've retired and they're free to talk. There is a video going around with just one after the other saying this is.

A terrible idea with no win. And I think even without listening to the experts, if you look at the goals of this war, you know, the idea that we can disarm Hamas in this way by force, the idea that the return of the hostages, I think it's just self evident that that is not a real goal. And Eyel Zamir, according to leaks anyway, as we mentioned, you know, said take it off the table if you want to do this. Don't you know.

This is my action plan and I'm going to fail. These are contradictory.

And just even this fantasy of some other unspecified body taking control of the Gaza Strip, that isn't Palestinians.

Or isn't the two, isn't Hamas, of course, but isn't the PA.

And who is it and who's doing this international running of the strip. And then at the meantime hearing someone like Smotrich, with his incredible influence, outsized influence, saying, yeah, this is really about resettling Gaza. So there's also a sort of sense of being tricked and hoodwinked. So for all these reasons, I think it's entirely justifiable. I would ask the question of whether the pragmatic side, I think it's interesting. What did you make, Noah, of the histidutes, saying that that this wasn't going to be effective, like, as a. As a reason not to have it.

[A]

I think that it's clear that it's not going to be effective. I don't think that there's any scenario in anyone's minds, including the most avid organizer of this, that it's going to happen. And that even if it were to happen and then become something that we did for one or two days a week, or even if it were just going to develop into a general strike, that it would change the government decision. Partly because the government, by its nature would refuse to respond to that kind of pressure, I think, and partly because I think the government has decided so. I think in that way it would be ineffective.

[B]

But just in terms of the most recent time I can remember that there was somewhat of an impact.

Of this kind of a strike, actually was during the judicial initial overhaul. I think that that did put brakes on what happened, but it hasn't. I think you're absolutely right. It's not. It isn't effective. Yeah.

[A]

Are you talking about the firing of Gallant and the threat to have a strike?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which was. Got a little bit muddy there. But I think that that definitely that had an impact. Yeah. I'm just trying to think when it is effective.

[A]

But.

Even if you're willing to accept that it's not going to have an impact, that in and of itself doesn't seem to me to be a reason not to do it. I mean, I go to every demonstration at Hostage Square. Not because I think that any decision maker is paying attention with an open mind to how many people turn up in Hostage Square, but rather because it's the thing to do. It's important that these other voices be out there. So I would say I would support it. And by the way, if it was a demonstration of. If it was, let's get 2 million people in the street on one day like they did at the end of the social protests. And it will be a big statement that I would be all in. And I would be enthusiastic about trying to persuade other people to go, too. My problem, and this is what I was trying to tell Susan, is with a strike itself, because I feel as though there is a subtext to a strike. And then in some people I've seen, it's not a subtext. They say it right out that we. I'll get back in a moment to who we is. We control the economy. You control the government, but we control the economy. And if you push us too far, then we will shut that shit down. And the Slogan of the strike is we are shutting down Israel Otzrim at Yisrael. We are stopping Israel from, from functioning. And I think that the, the we there are the, probably the, the, the, the leaders of the protests against the war and in favor of the hostages and, and a portion, a big portion maybe of the 60, 70, 80% of the people who support that. But I think that sociologically the we is also like. And this is a continuation of the judicial protests. The we is like, we the leaders of industry, we the entrepreneurs who founded high tech companies, we the people who sit on all the important international committees, we the representatives of international companies like, like Google and like Facebook here in Israel, we all agree.

[B]

So you're saying, you're describing socioeconomic elites is what you're saying?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that, that, I think. And because there is, because there is an overlap, far from a perfect overlap, but there is some kind of overlap that you can see with your own eyes at the demonstrations between like, you know, the old Ashkenazi lefty sorts and the people who are turning up to support the hostages. There's some overlap there. In the judicial reform protest, it was even more obvious, you know, you just almost didn't see people wearing a kippah, for instance. So that old secular elite is saying, we're gonna shut this fucker down because we still control that. Also the universities, by the way, I.

[B]

Was gonna say for bargain, I'm universities. Which sort of helps make your case though also. And I don't know the geographical breakdown. 70 local councils. There are 250 something local councils in Israel. So 70 have declared participation in the strike. And I think at least at the level of saying, you know, we're not going to dock pay if you decide to participate. I think that's been the general thing. And the Histadrood also.

Advised its member organization to do that. So it's not sure we know this about the opposition. And at the same time we also know in polling, look, this is as close as we can get. Maybe just this is a thought, maybe I'm going to try out that it's as close as we can get without an election or a referendum to a public vote of no confidence. Right.

The tools are limited and, and we don't like this. Right. We think that the way to guide the country is through democratic decision making and elections which happen at greater intervals than perhaps we can tolerate, given the pace and the direness of the decisions that are being made in the direction that in which we are going in. So we really are stuck. And I think one of the problems is the lack of goodwill that we can look theoretically at the structure of how decision making should really be happening in a democracy. But when you ignore what you understand to be the public will and when you dis the courts, which this government has done, and you basically throw out all of the sort of practices of goodwill that should be going that oil.

The machinery of the interactions between these bodies and when you just go roughshod through all of these decisions with a bunch of people who speak in messianic and non negotiable terms, I think that is we are really being pushed into this kind of way of handling how you make your opinion heard and how you show some strength behind that opinion. And I also want to say, look, we're talking about a very large call up of the reserves who are really very, very stretched at a time, of course, when there's the whole other story about not recruiting or not drafting a segment of the population. But I will say that one thing a strike does is it relieves the soldiers and the reserve soldiers a little bit from the requirement to have to do what they may ultimately have to do, which I think that is, but.

[A]

I don't understand how.

[B]

So I think that the soldiers, look, they're being told to go in and with the knowledge, you can't unknow that Ayal Zamir thinks this is going to kill the hostages. And I know that, I don't know what recent polling or questions, but I know that certainly a large number of the soldiers, their dream, what fuels them, them or has been rescuing the hostages. And you're saying okay, now no, that thing, that is the dream when they fall asleep at night, that's the fantasy that they have. Despite what the world says about Israeli soldiers, that's what they want. They want to suddenly realize that the person in a hijab is actually.

A hostage being smuggled from apartment to apartment. And they're going to be the ones that is because that's what their dream is. And now they are being told, no, not only is that not the goal, what you're going to do is going to kill these people that you have come to know. And just on that score alone and other scores about just the exhaustion, the unfairness of it and the muddlement of this kind of and the level of killing of non combatants that will be involved in this kind of operation. I can see that there will be a segment that will really reconsider whether they show up for, for duty. And that's a big problem. And so it is also on the public to take that role from the soldiers and be the ones to make that case and not have to make that into something that splits the army.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with everything that you said, but it still leaves me with the question of whether strike is the right way to do it, because there's.

[B]

Something irreducible rather than a huge demonstration.

[A]

If they were to get 2 million people in the street, then it would have an impact that will be as great as the strike or greater. I think that the reason, the rationale for the strike is in fact we do have access to more levers of control in the economy than just our numbers itself would suggest. So.

Let us demonstrate that we have some power in this country, even though you politicians on the right wing have completely denied, like you were saying, Miriam, to share any power in between elections in the way that we would have expected to happen and that we demand happens in light of this war and all the unexpected things that happened when we last, last went to the polls and voted. So I think. But the question of. But that's exactly the question is like, is it the right thing and is it legitimate to say, okay, we have this power and we are going to flex it? Like for me, I mean, nobody at the, for the universities, it's pretty abstract because there are some summer courses, but I'm the end of a sabbatical. And also it's summer, right? So nobody much is at the universities.

[B]

But also, by the way, the tech companies, lots of people are on vacation.

[A]

But yes, it's true. But if the universities were to say at a time when, you know, everyone is studying, we are shutting this stuff down and a third of the students, you know, don't disagree with the point of view of the university and agree with the point of view of the government, it would feel as though maybe there's something, something, maybe the power that we have because the universities, save for Bar Ilan, and even Bar Ilan to a degree and save for Ariel, the universities are all controlled by the left. So.

There'S something that makes me worried about saying, okay, we don't have power in the Knesset, but we do have power on campus, so we're going to use that. We don't have power in the Knesset, but we do have power, have power at the stock exchange, so we're going to use that.

And really maybe, I mean, what Susan was saying is.

Basically, as I understood her, she was saying that's too fancy a distinction to be making. And I think she Was also saying we're beyond that. Like, fuck it. We've got to do anything that we can and we pick up anything that we find around us to bang on whatever there is to bang on that might help. And that's what this strike is. And I see how that could be be right. I have a general overarching rule about such things where it turns out, I've learned from decades of experience that Susan is right about these things, but it still makes me nervous. It doesn't feel like the best. I myself am not eager to participate in a strike where I'm very eager to participate in a demonstration.

[B]

So what are you gonna do on Sunday?

[A]

Our municipality, I think, like all municipalities are on vacation. So the question of support is a purely symbolic question because everyone, no one is working, I think, in any of the municipalities around the country on Sunday. So.

[B]

So you're gonna have to be really creative about how to strike on Sunday. I'm looking forward to hearing your what a country all about it.

[A]

I mean, I don't know if I would. If I was working hard in some place that was, you know, I'm sure I wouldn't break the strike. If the university was going and I had classes, I'm sure they would all be canceled, including mine. But I don't know if this is where I will join any demonstration that I believe in. And I don't know if I would join this or not. I really do not know. Susan is, though. She's canceling her clinic and she's gonna be out on the street, I think, throwing firebombs and getting beat, beaten by billy clubs, by police, smashing store windows. It's Susan's way. She does it on. On you most Sundays, I think. Now listen to this.

She.

[B]

Sh.

[A]

That song is Od mi pagesh, the old Ari Geinstein song performed here lately by the Nahal Oz choir. All the songs you heard on the show today can be found on YouTube and the first two songs can be found in all the other usual places as well. Now it is time for our Voda country segment. This is the part of the show in which each of us us describe something that maybe brought us solace as we wended our way through our worlds over the last little while needing solace maybe more this week than some other weeks. Or possibly surprised and amused, delighted and enchanted and sorceled. There could be even flugdes as we did that very same wending. Miriam, what is your way to country?

[B]

I'm going for solace this time. My mood has been Bleak, I'm not gonna lie. But one ray of light. I drove up to Ein Kerem in Jerusalem to visit my daughter Tuesday evening and we strolled on the trails behind her house and walked in the village a bit. Ein Karam is really quaint. And talked and enjoyed a supper together. And she happened to mention that a friend had come over that day for a kind of co working arrangement, each with her own laptop, working on her own project, and said the friend was doing some work involving a project with people in Gaza. And when I woke up in the morning, that's yesterday, I was. Was pretty despondent and I thought that's what I want to hear about someone doing something with Gazans. Not symbols or numbers or talking points, something that connects on a human level. So I asked for some deets about what this Gaza thing is that her friend was working on. And here's the deal. It's an initiative called Chance to Meet, or in Hebrew, sikui le mifgash, or in Arabic for satun lilika e. And since 2019, it has been quietly connecting artists and activists from Gaza and Israel to collaborate on art projects, musical productions, dance video and the like. So this, for example.

There's beatbox in that mix that's, you know, using your mouth as a drum set. And a Palestinian beatboxer recorded that track in a tent in Gaza and then sent it to a music producer in Jerusalem who did the layered mix. And they've been using all the ways that digital tools let you connect and collaborate. But more recently, there have also been in person collaborations in Europe. Tal Shalom is a dancer, choreographer, musician and peace activist from Jerusalem. She's the mad genius behind this initiative. She met up with an artist from Gaza she'd been in touch with by phone and Zoom for years. And they spent a five day marathon in a recording studio and produced a complex Arabic, Hebrew, Muslim, Jewish piece called Auladna Our Children. It's five and a half minutes, so I'm going to start the clip in the middle.

Sa.

[A]

Sh.

Sa.

[B]

In December, Tal Shalom brought that clip to a three day gathering called Woodstock for Peace in the Aravah Desert. And she went up on stage and brought her Palestinian partner with her by phone. They do all kinds of artistic ventures. There's a clown act, an Israeli performer called Hadar Sharir paired up with Abdullah Abu Shaban, a medical clown from Gaza who discovered his artistic calling when he was a cancer patient in Israel. They put together an immersive experience that involves a film and sending phone, text, dialogue to the audience, it's called Take Care and it's actually playing today as part of the Israel Festival. And this stuff is not simple. There's a documentary about chance to meet that was years in the making and is now discreetly available in underground word of mouth locations. I saw the trailer, and in it you see a gathering of older kibbutz peaceniks who used to meet in an abandoned factory between Kibbutz Be' eri and the Gaza border. They would connect in zoom calls with Gazans who were willing to engage with them and dream of peace together. That was 2019. And who knows how many of those good Israelis were killed or kidnapped in October 2023. And who knows how many other peace activists stepped away due to profound disillusionment and broken hearts and broken trust. But the ones who are in it, the Tal Shaloms trying to make this whimsical and deeply serious art, they know all the bad things. They knew the Vivian Silvers who championed peace and were murdered, and they lost friends on the kibbutzim and at the festival and in the war. They've also witnessed the deaths of acquaintances in Gaza and even close friends there. They probably wouldn't appreciate a military metaphor, but they are fighting their own war. A rebellion, really, against what an article I recently read called learned helplessness. A clinical state that happens when you're constantly hit with with aversive stimuli that are beyond your control and you stop believing you can have any impact. And surely that's what I've been feeling too, that creeping helplessness. But seeing people still daring to create together, across borders, across grief, reminds me that despair isn't the only option.

[A]

Yeah, that's beautiful. If not the sound of the future, certainly a sound of a future.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

So there is a problem with shade in Tel Aviv. Maybe you noticed there's a problem with shade in cities all over the world. And climate change is making the problem bigger and more important all the time. And the city took a decision to plant 10,000 trees a year until we planted 100,000 altogether. But what do you do in the places where you really can't plant plant trees, either because the sidewalks and the streets are too narrow, or because under the sidewalks and the streets there are layers atop layers of pipes and wires and cables. There's the water and the gas and the Internet and the telephones and the electricity. And any tree big enough to eventually give shade would be sure to gum up the tangle of stuff that's already buried underground. All those pipes and stuff it's a big problem and it's a hard one. And a bunch of people from a very cool, very mixed, not at all well heeled neighborhood in Shapira, which is where your girl lives, right, Miriam? In Shapira, yes.

[B]

She has lived there a lot.

[A]

Yeah, it's a hip neighborhood, so that's how cool it is. A bunch of people from there got organized with meetings and petitions about the need for more shade. And they came to a meeting of the Environment and Sustainability Committee at City hall and people from the city who are trying to figure out the whole shade thing. They said, look, it's not easy. They told about the pipes and the cables and the wires, and they said, we're working on it. And the week after that, at my chavorah on Shabbat morning, a woman came up to me and said, do you remember me from that meeting? And I said, oh yeah. And she said, I'm Yara Peretz, I'm Matan's sister. And Mattan is one of the beloved people and one of the beloved families in our chabara. He just came back from a year in Canada. And the woman, her name is Ya'. Ara. Like I said, she said something like. Like kind of felt like we were being handled at that committee meeting, just lip service. And so it was decided that we would meet up again, me and this group from Shapira at City hall. And we did. And they made their points, which were all good. And after they left, there was a conversation with a guy in the city who does the shade. And he said, look, that problem with the infrastructure with the pipes and the wires and stuff, it is a real problem. It's like a problem without a solution. And I said that I'd been at some startup Nation thing, a demo day or hackathon or something, and there'd been this startup there that said, this is what they do. They got vines and climbing plants that have shallow roots, so you can plant them in a kind of concrete planter that takes the place of the curbstone, and they grow to cover some frame thing that you put up that stretches over the sidewalk, and they give shade with no digging, and they grow in just like a few months. And the guy from the city said, look, you, you give me a good solution, one that's safe and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and I'll do it, or at least I'll look into it. And my Mira dug up the information about the startup that I'd seen and I whatsapped one of the founders of the company, her name is Yuval Godolter. And I wrote that I saw her and her prototype at this demo day or hackathon or whatever it was. And we were looking for a way to get shade on the sidewalks in tight crowd neighborhoods like Shapira. And I don't know if the thing that they demoed could do that or not, but I thought it was worth a try. And maybe two minutes passed after I sent that WhatsApp, when I get a WhatsApp back with all sorts of exclamation points and a lot of eager enthusiasm. And so there was a meeting set for Monday just a couple of days ago. And when they came, the two founders of the company, that's Yuval Godolter, that woman, and Nahorai Bracha. It turns out that their students, Yuval Gedoter just started her doctorate just now. And Norai Bracha, he's gonna be starting his doctorate. He just finished his master's. And the two of them, they came and they're in T shirts and they're in sandals. They look, well, in the best cases, they look like 20 something grad students, but they basically look like they just came off the Israel Trail and we're in City hall and I don't know, this is kind of an opportunity maybe, maybe, maybe for them to show what they can do and kind of a. A big city, maybe, maybe, maybe on kind of a big scale, maybe, maybe, maybe, like it could matter. And they looked like they just came in off the quad or like I said, off the Israel Trail. And the last thing that ever crossed their mind was that maybe they should try to impress me and the other people in the meeting, not with how they looked and not with how they talked. It was like Akhla and Sababa. From the very beginning to the very end, though, they got with them a third person. Her name is Roeet Leit. She's maybe a decade older. She's like the adult in the startup company. Her architecture degree has long ago been framed and put on the wall. And Yuval Godolter, she opens her laptop and she sets it on the windowsill of my office. And so we're all looking at this PowerPoint presentation on this little laptop. And she makes this astonish. They make this astonishing presentation. They say, we get why people say there is no solution for this place or that in this neighborhood or that. But man, there is always something to do. There is always something to do. After the presentation is over and we're discussing this further, I ask Yuval Godolter about her Ph.D. and she says.

[B]

I.

[A]

Work in a hot house, I live plants all the time. I am trying to find some for the salination of soil, something practical that every farmer without science background can use in his fields. The key is halophytes, plants that love salt. They have the innate ability to store salts. So what I'm trying to do is learn how to work with them to manipulate these plants so they will take salt from the soil and then store it up and thereby desalinate the ground. There's no genetic engineering involved. They use use the mechanisms they use when they are exposed to pathogens. So what I do is I spark in them, simulated pathogenesis and in response they just absorb the salt from the soil. End quote. So plants, Yuval Godolter goes on and says, plants do amazing things. You just gotta work with them, you just gotta learn them, you just gotta find a way to communicate with them, to cooperate with them, to trust them. And it pricks my heart this 20 something scientist in sandals and a T shirt, already an expert at forming coalitions with plants. Sure, absolutely sure. She's absolutely sure that there is always something to do. So as I speak now, tomorrow at 10, we got this field trip planned in Shapira with Yuval and Norai and Roeet and Yara and other people from that group with the petitions. And I do not know what, if anything will come of it, but Yuval, Gadolta and the others, they all got me. Believin. There is always something to do. And that brings us to the end of our show. Thanks to Itai Shalem, our station manager, without whom there'd be none of this. Thanks to Achi Bolin, my favorite band from Kibbutzkeva. They give us the music at the start and the end of our show. Thank you so much Miriam. Thank you Natalie. We'd like to thank all of our Patreon supporters for your generosity and support. It keeps the show going, it keeps the station going, it keeps us moved and grateful and in your debt. And we'd like to thank all of you out there for taking the time to listen and actually like us on Facebook, Facebook and drop us a line. We are eventually going to answer. After you do that, go to Apple Podcasts and give us a five star review. Maybe one that starts with this. Unlike Sydney Sweeney, the Promise podcast does not wish to suggest tacitly or explicitly that we are in any way biologically and hereditarily superior to you and or the other podcasts that you quote unquote, listen to if anything, we are known in the industry as an unter Winter Podcast. Finish that any way you want. But before you do that, remember that today as we record on August 14th we celebrate world Lizard Day so stipulated according to the report of the generally considered authoritative for such matters Central Asia Climate information portal website by American herpetologist John Hunter way back in 2004 to raise awareness of and sympathy for and love for those members of the order of School Squatmata, the superorder of Lepidosauria in the class of Reptilia, which order of Squatmata contains 7,000 species ranging in size from the adorable Bruchacea micra, a sort of chameleon that never grows much more than a single inch long and is often much shorter than that all the way up to the Komodo Dragon.

Is your Komodo dragon?

Yes, there he is one of eight.

With so many species he took the town by storm with his.

Which Komodo dragon can grow to 3 meters or 10ft in length and hundreds of kilos in weight? And that's just the most obvious reasons that lizards are so floridly diverse that I heard the Trump administration is considering suing the whole damn phylum of Chordata. There are lizards that change colors like your chameleons. There are lizards that can fly or glide like your Dracos. There are venomous lizards like your Gila monsters. There are lizards that walk on water like Basilisk lizards. Yes, lizards are amazing. But then we knew that from the get go. And I guess I do not need to tell you that I adore World Lizard Day. It is probably my favorite day of the entire year, you know, because they so often look so much like dinosaurs. And of course because of the jokes like what do you call a lizard at an open mic? A stand up chameleon. What is every lizard's favorite movie? Probably the Sorrow and the Pity. But for the sake of the joke, the Lizard of Oz. What do lizards put down on their kitchen floor? Reptiles. And a man walks into a bar with a lizard on his shoulder and says to the bartender, a pint for me and a gin and tonic for Tiny here. And the bartender says sure, but why do you call him Tiny? And the man says, cause he's minute. Minute. And even though, as I say, this World Lizard Day is barely halfway over, still I know that soon it will be entirely gone. Like mosasaurs, who before they went extinct could grow to 17 meters in length, almost 60ft, and to 20 tons in weight. Weight, which was great until that damn asteroid hit the Yucatan 66 million years ago and the mosasaurs packed it in, not to return for a long, long time. Like when a lab in Harvard decides to de extinct them. But I digress. Not so the Promised Podcast. We will be back for you next week and every week, reminding you that while lizards are without a doubt enchanting animals, not every slimy thing that skulks around sewers and drains and makes your skin crawl when you see it out of the corner of your eye is charming. On this the Promise podcast.