← The Promised Podcast
The Promised Podcast
The “No Guide to the Perplexed” Edition
01:31:09
Allison Kaplan Sommer, Linda Gradstein and Noah Efron discuss (1) Hunger in Gaza, and (2) French, English and Canadian plans to recognize the state of Palestine in September. Plus, Tisha B’Av in the Land of Israel, lifeguards in Tel Aviv, and...
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- [00:01]
A
Today is day 664, which are 93 weeks and five days of the captivity of now 50 hostages, living and dead in Gaza.
- [00:14]
This is TLV1. This episode may contain explicit language.
- [00:27]
Foreign.
- [00:32]
Welcome to the Promise podcast brought to you on TLV1, the voice of the city that is home to the Jerusalem beach, A beach dedicated to our unfortunately landlocked sisters and brothers who live in the holy city and nation's capital. Which Jerusalem beach is the site of a lovely, well appointed lifeguard stand on stilts. Which lovely, well appointed lifeguard stand on stilts is now the new workplace of 24 year old Tamar Milisov, who just days ago became the first woman lifeguard in the city's 102 year history of having lifeguards to protect and serve the people of the city as well as the many, many visitors to the city. A tradition of lifeguardery that started with the legendary Avraham Lieberson, who first set up the operation in 1923 and oversaw it for 30 odd years teaching in the off season at Gymnasia Herzaliyah, where in the event my chavura meets on Shabb and holidays. Though it was in a different building way back then. And it was Abraham Lieberson who hired Shlomo Al Kasoff. He was the third lifeguard in the city's history, a man named David Ehrlich was the second. And Shlomo Al Kasov was the first deaf lifeguard in the city's history and thus he was the first first in the history of Tel Aviv lifeguardery. He could not hear people cry out, but he famously could feel or sense when a swimmer was in distress and needed his help. Shlomo Al Kasof was beloved. He was a carpenter in the off season and he invented a sort of float or board that looks rather like a flat kayak with no holes for a passenger. It is sanded and sealed all around and hollow inside. Light and buoyant, it looks like if you stuck a straw in the side of a surfboard and blew hard until it inflated. The thing is called a hasaka and it is still in use on the beaches to this day. Shlomo Al Kasof was struck by tragedy when his wife Tziporah, who was also deaf, and their three year old girl Yael were killed on September 9, 1940 when Italian warplanes bombed Tel Aviv. Though even after that he continued his life's work of keeping swimmers safe on the beach. And lifeguards are the stuff of Heroic stories of daring do in Tel Aviv. And they were also for some years, though no longer, the most highly paid public employees in the city, earning for a time more than the mayor, an anomalous result of a remarkably advantageous contract that they signed with the city early on that allowed seniority pay to continued to accrue without limitation. Who knew that the lifeguard hired in the 1920s would still be guarding lives in the 1960s and even 1970s? And though new lifeguards no longer make more than the mayor, it remains a profession of great, even Hasselhoffian mystique, which until a couple of weeks ago was always a male mystique. Until Tamar Milisov broke the glass shoreline, aced her exams, amazed everyone with her performance in a demanding training program, and earned her place in the Jerusalem beach lifeguard stand. Tamar Malisov said this week, quote I always loved the sea, but as a child I didn't think it could become my profession. When you go to the beach in Israel, you only see male lifeguards. But one day I realized that this is what I wanted to do. I just woke up one fine day and said to myself, this is my calling. When there is a female lifeguard on duty on the tower, women on the beach feel safer. There are cases of harassment. We see it from the tower and we intervene and help. This is not a classic lifeguard guard duty, but it is definitely part of our job, end quote. For all that, Tamar Malisov says that people are always still surprised to see her up in the lifeguard stand, quote the first time I made an announcement over the loudspeaker from the tower, the whole beach stood still and watched, end quote. That said, Tamar Milisoff said, among those standing still and watching were young girls who understood at once that this can be their future too, if they want it. And arguably nothing captures the we'll get to the right place, if not at first, then eventually spirit of this city we love so well. Tel Aviv Jaffo Better than looking up, your eyes shielded from the sun by the salute of your hand over your brow as you look at the lifeguard tower. And in the spot where for 100 years you and everyone who came before you has seen only men, men, men, some legendary you see there a woman whose pages in the storied history of the city's life Gartery is only this summer starting to be written. With us in the great underground vault that is the Serenity studio at Lesser Ory street is a woman whose lovely prose, like the Very best lifeguards around the world and throughout history, embodies certain unmistakable lifeguardish virtues, what the Germans call retug, schwimmer haftigscheid te genden. That's one word, obviously virtues or tegenden that include courage, vigilance, calm under pressure, life and death, responsibility, teamwork, communication, judgment, and quick wits. Obviously, that woman could only be Alison Kaplan Sommer. Alison has written for Politico, the New Republic, Foreign, the Jerusalem Post, the jta, the Forward, and many other of your very best papers and magazines. She's a columnist with Haaretz. You have seen her on i24 television and Al Jazeera TV, and you have heard her on NPR, PRI and the BBC and of course, the Haaretz podcast that she hosts very often. Two times in a single week. People. Alison holds a B' Nai B World Center Award for journalism, recognizing excellence in diaspora reportage, and a Simon Rockau award for excellence in covering Zionism, Aliyah and Israel. Alison, you were gone. And we won't hide it. We miss you. How you doing?
- [06:18]
B
I'm doing good. I learned something now I always thought was a straight translation from. From English to Hebrew of surfboard. Because of all the beach Boise like Israeli songs referring to the Hasa. So, okay. Surf, surf, surfboard. So you just explained that it is a unique object that is not exactly a surfboard neither. It doesn't either sound like a SAP. You know, the. The boards that everyone plays on. So.
- [06:42]
A
Absolutely.
- [06:43]
B
Thank you for the. For the education.
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A
And I invented right here in Tel Aviv.
- [06:46]
B
Exactly. I also enjoyed the invention of the word Hassel.
- [06:51]
A
I'm sure I did not invent that. So many things are Hasselhoffian in this world.
- [06:56]
B
So does that make the first female lifeguard Pamelean?
- [07:02]
A
Presumably, yes. One has to assume. Now also with us today from tlv, one's oldest satellite studio in Jerusalem, for which the Jerusalem beach is both named and for which it was constructed. And we are so happy about the fact that she is with us is a woman who embodies not just the virtues of the lifegu like Alison, but also the virtues of the beach itself. What the Germans call strand wesen haftischkeit gunden, or the virtues inherent in the essential beachiness of the beach, such as power and calm and patience and expansiveness and radical openness and whimsy and sunniness, of course, and balance and great powers of transformation. Every day you are with her feels like a new and good day. Obviously, that woman could be none other than Linda Gradstein. Linda Gradstein has long covered Israel, first for MP and most recently for the Voice of America. Linda is also a lecturer in journalism at NYU Tel Aviv and the Hebrew University. And not too long ago at NYU Abu Dhabi, Linda has won an Overseas Press Club Award and an Alfred I. Dupont Award for Excellence in Broadcast Journalism. Linda, by the way, happy birthday. Happy birthday to you. Wait one second. Happy birthday to you Happy birthday to you Happy birthday, dear Linda Happy birthday to you.
- [08:36]
That was me singing, obviously. How you doing?
- [08:39]
C
I'm doing fine, thank you. And I actually have a connection to the Jerusalem beach in Tel Aviv, which is that years ago, my son Nitanel befriended one of the lifeguards there, a lovely guy named Yariv, who apparently is still there. And Yariv would. I would drive him on Fridays. We'd go to the beach. Yariv would let Nathanael take out a surfboard and the Hasakah would let him shower and hang out in that lovely little lifeguard hut that you spoke about. Would set up a little. A nice chaise lounge, a very comfortable one for me in the shade of the lifeguard.
- [09:17]
Hut. And actually, actually last year, Nitanel was out on the Hasakah after the lifeguard, the time, you know, after 5:00 clock or 6:00 clock or whenever it is that the lifeguards go home, and there was somebody drowning and he and another man helped bring this person in. Somebody came in and said, my boyfriend's drowning. And he went out on the Hasakah with this other guy. And they brought this guy in. He had been, I don't know, caught in a riptide. I don't know exactly what happened, but it was after six o' clock in the evening and the guy was open.
- [09:52]
A
Wow.
- [09:53]
C
Yeah.
- [09:53]
A
One thing about that lifeguard stand on the Jerusalem beach, which I had a chance to see, because every year have this open apartment open Tel Aviv Day, where you can go visit fancy apartments and stuff. And they opened that. It's like a little apartment in there. It's beautiful.
- [10:09]
C
Oh, yeah, it's really nice.
- [10:10]
A
It's got carpet, it's got sofas, it's got places. It's got a shower and a bathroom. It's a whole thing. If that thing was in, like, downtown Manhattan, you would rent it for like $7,000 a month.
- [10:21]
C
It's true. And so Nita Nail would, like, he'd be like, oh, mom, you don't need, you know, if you need to go to the bathroom, just come up to our place. That's what he called it when he. So he was. It was just. And so literally for like months every week we would go and it was just such a nice thing and he's still in touch with Yariv. Isn't that cool?
- [10:38]
A
That is cool. And last question about this was the fact that it was the Jerusalem beach and you were living in Jerusalem. Was that relevant to this story? Was it random? Could it have been any beach? Or did you go to it because it was the Jerusalem beach in Jerusalem?
- [10:50]
B
No.
- [10:50]
A
No.
- [10:50]
C
Well, he had already been there before and had befriended Yariv because he wanted to learn to surf and he didn't want to pay to rent a surfboard. So somehow he had already met him. So I think it was random.
- [11:03]
A
Now as for me, my name is Noah Efron and I do not mean to boast, but this past week I was under the weather and while I was, the facial recognition on my phone stopped recognizing my face, which I am pretty sure is not because I looked better. Problem was I think that I don't have gargoyle recognition installed on my phone. And please believe me when I say that I am not bracket heavens, my folks taught me better than that. But I very long ago took the precaution of never much linking my self worth to how I look. Even in high school, when I was a DJ at our school radio station, I had a show called the Voice of the Revolution that played protest music. My friend Mark Golub told me that I had a face for radio. And now I think the fact that I was never gonna get by on my looks helps a little when even my phone is telling me I ain't looking my best. And who is this troll trying to use Noah's phone? Today we got two topics of such great import and value that we have literally insured them at Lloyd's of London. But first, we have this matter that we are following with alert, interest and great concern as part of an occasional series we like to call the Promise Podcast candidly concatenates Kant's moral law within and starry heavens above and of course the 9th of AV. I have just rhymed heavens above and 9th of AV.
- [12:21]
Just days after the Old City of Jerusalem was taken in the Six Day War in June 1967, members of a group called the Movement for the Judaism of the Torah, a group of mostly scholars, university sorts, and rabbis and writers and also some activists met in the city to talk through the pressing matter of how halacha, Jewish law needed now to be changed. Renewed was the word they used in light of the many great successes of the state of Israel, really, in light of the very fact of the State of Israel, and especially in light of what had just happened weeks before in the. The movement for the Judaism of the Torah was started one year before in 1966, by Ephraim Orbach, the great Hebrew University professor of Talmud, winner of the Israel Prize, later the head of the Israel Academy of Arts and Sciences, who had himself been ordained at the remarkable Yeshiva in Breslau that had been created more than a century before in 1854, by Rav Zakharya Frankel as part of what he called the Movement for Positive Historical Judaism, which movement and SHIVA were all about creating a moderate, modern, this worldly third way sort of Yiddishkeit and the movement for the Judaism of the Torah that Ephraim Orbach started with other like thinking scholars and rabbis and writers and activists. It aimed to close the, quote, gap between the people and the Torah and the gap between halacha and political, economic and social reality. End quote. Which is to say that it aimed to close the gap between Yiddishkeit and life itself, between the shul and the street. When Ephraim Orbach's group met in Jerusalem, one of the first things they talked about, maybe because it was summer and the date was upon them, was Tisha B'Av. What was traditionally read and said on the holiday, with its description of Jerusalem as a quote, mournful, ruined, wretched and desolate city, had all at once come to seem wrong, anachronistic. Mayor Teddy Kollick had just called to form what he called the Jerusalem Committee, inviting some of the world's great planners, architects, artists, historians, theologians and philosophers, including architects Louis Kahn, Diana Roundtree, Philip Johnson, Isamu Noguchi and Buckminster Fuller, and sculptor Jacques Lifschitz, Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, and historian, sociologist and philosopher Lewis Mumford. All of these people he had called to come to Jerusalem to help plan the city's quote, unquote, reunification, stitching together of old and new, of holy and profane, of stolid and ethereal. And there was nothing mournful, ruined, wretched or desolate about this moment, or about the city at this moment in which you could feel a throb of energy that felt at once ancient and modern. The problem the movement for Judaism and the Torah tried to solve in 1967 was the opposite of the problem faced by the exiles by the river of Babylon in Tilim Psalms 137, after the brutes who carried them away to captivity and required of them a song. And they wept and hanged their harps on the willows, saying, how can we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? And they said, if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth. And now, before Tisha B' Av, in the summer of 1967, Ephraim Orbach and everyone else, they were here in Jerusalem, which was rising around them, and the calendar itself required of them keening and grieving. And they asked themselves, how can we sing songs of lamentation? How can we taste ash on our tongues? When, as Naomi Shemer wrote that same summer, adding a celebratory verse to her song, Jerusalem of Gold, we have returned to the cisterns, to the market and the square, and from the caves in the rock a thousand suns glow again, again. How can we wail the movement of Judaism, of the Torah people asked when the wailing wall was once again in our hands. It was a challenge worthy of a psalmist.
- [16:45]
First thing, Ephraim Orbach's group rewrote a traditional Tisha B'Av prayer, making it about not consolation, but compassion, changing nachem to rachem and shifting the traditional prayer from the present tense to the past, changing, for instance, the city that is destroyed and in waste to the city that was destroyed and laid in waste. But no longer was the implication of the change. Ephraim Orbach's question of what to do about Tisha B'Av in an age of Zionism was one that people had asked for a long time. On Wednesday evening, July 12, 1905, hundreds from the Jewish community in Yafothis was four years before Tel Aviv was officially established. Hundreds gathered on Herzl street to dedicate a new school, the first high school to offer instruction only in Hebrew.
- [17:39]
And the evening started with this solemn.
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On the 10th day of the Month of Consolation, Av. In the 1841st year since the destruction of the Temple, and in the 12th year since the First Zionist Congress, a cornerstone is being laid for a Hebrew gymnasium in Yahoo.
- [18:04]
To understand why the 10th of AV was chosen and not the 9th, it helps to see that the date of the destruction of the Temple was a matter of some debate. You can read about it in the Talmud, the Bavli tractate Tanit page 29A. Because in the Book of Kings it says that the Temple was laid waste on the 7th of AV. And in the Book of Jeremiah it says on the 10th of AV, which in the end, the rabbis harmonized by saying, on the 7th, 7th the temple was breached, on the 9th it was defiled, and on the 10th it was burned. In Midrash Echaraba it tells how in the year the temple was destroyed, a Jew was plowing his field. On the 9th of AV, when his beast of burden let out a terrible bitter moan. A man, not a Jew, said to the farmer, jew, stop plowing, Let easy on your animal, for your temple temple has just been destroyed. This because the man understood the language of the beasts. The next day the animal let out another terrible bitter moan, and the man said, jew, go back to your plow, because the Messiah of the Jews has just been born. The 10th of AV was chosen as the day to lay the cornerstone of the first Hebrew gymnasium as a symbol of how 12 years after the first Zionist Congress, the Messiah was being brought, now in the form of a school teaching the literature of the Jews and the language of the Jews. It is for a similar reason that Chai Agnon, the great writer, chose Tisha B' ava as his official birthday when he doctored his documents to avoid being drafted into the Russian army. Making himself younger, that's what kept him out of uniform and also putting himself symbolically at the front of a movement in literature and culture that was trading the lamentations of the past for a new messianic future. In his story the Knights of the Messiah, Shai Agnon wrote from the words of the chosen ones among the sacred poets. I hear that they have already begun assembling the limbs of the Messiah. This was Agnon's life work. Assembling the limbs of the Messiah from words, words, words. In 1934, the great Zionist writer and activist Burl Katzenelson wrote in the socialist daily newspaper that he edited the var, an angry piece full of pique that he called destruction and detachment. It started, quote, I heard that one of the youth movements has arranged to take its members for a summer camp on the Same Night Tisha B'Av, on which Israel mourns its destruction, its enslavement and the rebellion of its exile. It is inconceivable that someone did this deliberately. It is inconceivable that the counselors of the pioneering youth who educate towards a life of fulfillment, that is to say, towards freedom from exile and repair of the gashes and the defects in us owing to its destruction. It is conceivable that they did while being aware of what they were doing. End quote. Of course, Burl Katz and Nelson went on, if they did this without being aware that is only worse. The movement of rebuilding will be unable to do anything now if the people of Israel do not keep in their hearts the holiness of the memory of destruction, if Israel does not know how to mourn for the destruction on a memorial day for all those who died before us and quote, this tension over Tisha B', av, what is this day dedicated to remembering destruction in a time and place dedicated to building, building, building. This question has been part of the story of Zionism since there has been Zionism. A 1926 Tisha B'Av appeal to American Jews by the Jewish National Fund said, quote, bring your bricks towards the great structure now being built. Built. Help redeem the land of Israel from grief over the desolation. Onward to the joy of restoration. The Next year's Tisha B'Av appeal came just 27 days after a terrible earthquake that devastated the land of Israel, killing hundreds of people, destroying thousands and thousands of homes and public buildings, and making the Western Wall too dangerous to visit. There is a photograph of the destruction in Jerusalem that shows two men in kaftans with long beards, one in a big black skull cap sitting on a pile of rubble, the other in a big black hat standing within the wreckage. Today the picture brings to mind, unbidden and inescapably, those many, many, many pictures of people sitting and standing amidst the rubble of what was not long ago their home in Gaza, shake to the core the indifference and aid in the speedy building up of Palestine. That is what the JNF appeal said in that year 98 years ago. So many other appeals of other organizations say today about Gaza. The triumphalist Zionist view of the Tisha B'Av of lamentation and mourning being over, no longer needed. That view never fully took hold here, while in 1939 the Tel Aviv revisionist daily Hamashkif, the paper where Jabotinsky published what he had to say about the this and that of the day to day back to then, could still write in 1939 in its front page editorial about Tisha B'Av that quote from a day of fasting, lamentation and mourning. This day, Tisha B' Av has become a day of rejoicing and a call for the multitudes to join our struggle for freedom and independence. End quote. But in the years that came right after that, all the papers talked only about how the day had gone back to being a day of fasting, lamentation and mourning as news of what Hitler was doing became impossible to ignore. In 1942, the paper Hazman had in its Front page editorial about Tisha B' Av that for the 1872 years since the destruction of the Second Temple, there had never been as bitter a Tisha B'Av that so reminded one of the original dark days of the destruction of the temple as the Tisha Baav that year in 1942, this dark identification with the Tisha Bav of destruction and lamentation, it came back too, in those bereft months after the Yom Kippur poor war, as people woke up one morning after another to life without their loved ones killed in the war and struggled to understand how their government had failed to see that an attack was coming and to protect them from it. Haolam Hazeh printed in 1974, ahead of the day, an article called Tisha B'Av. Probably it was written by Uri Avneri, the prolific editor of the paper, but it is unsigned. It starts, quote the bank was closed. Tisha B'Av, it said on the glass door. Tisha B'Av closed nothing. Two thousand years ago, give or take, the temple was destroyed and today the bank is closed. The feeling here, it is bad. There is something of the atmosphere of the destruction of the temple in the air. There will be a war, a holy war. Nation against nation, knitted kippah against red Kaffir. There were crusaders, there were Turks, there was a this is a land that devours its inhabitants. Who knows where in the future the banks will close for us? Who knows, maybe we won't even get that. Maybe just in the history books you will be able to find a short chapter the State of Israel 1948 to who knows when.
- [25:29]
That article was published, one year after Rav Shlomo Goren, then newly appointed Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel, having served before as Chief Rabbi of the IDF during the he went up to the Temple Mount, Al Haram al Sharif, on Tisha Baav and among the holiest of holy mosques. There he blew a shofar, a harbinger to some future rebuilding on the site of a third Temple. The back and forth of the thing from triumphalism to disconsolation, from the future is here to we have no future. The back and forth of it is maybe the most constant thing about Tisha BAV here in the holy Holy Land than the epoch of Zionism. On November 22, 1970, Teddy Connick got a letter from Lewis Mumford, who is my own personal favorite of all the people the mayor invited to be on his Jerusalem committee. A secular Jew from Flushing who went to Stuyvesant and City College and The New School, an acolyte of the great Scottish polymath, anthropologist designer Patrick Geddes, who planned my neighborhood and lots of others in Tel Aviv, and who wrote books about technology that gave shape to the way that I think about things, books that I still read and press other people who study with me to read, even though some of them were written almost 100 years ago, when technology was a whole different thing than it is today. Lewis Mumford did not like the plans he saw coming out of Jerusalem for Jerusalem, and he wrote to Teddy Kollick, to fulfill its mission, Jerusalem must become not a national capital, but a world capital whose extraterritorial status will be protected and cherished not by this or that self appointed military guardian, but by all the people of the world, people who are sick with longing for peace and security. That the present power structures of national states and expanding empires do not even remotely promise to denationalize and depoliticize Jerusalem is, I submit, the first practical step toward preparing a long term plan for Jerusalem's future and the world's. Despite all present divisions and antagonisms, some now more fiercely visible than ever, even within Jerusalem, the structure of the city, its topography, its soil, its ancient walls, its historic sites, make Jerusalem in its presence and person, a potential source of unity. This view of the terms for Jerusalem's elevation and unification is not, I insist, a desertion of ancient promises, still less a council of despair. Rather, it is a call to fresh thought and action, released from imprisonment to past errors, past feuds, past animosity. This may be one of those singular moments when the great physicist Clerk Maxwell once wrote, when an insignificant force exerted at a propitious moment may affect an enormous change which would otherwise be beyond human possibility. These moments do not occur often. End quote. Lewis Mumford was telling Teddy, do not take the lamentations of the past past to be just Jewish lamentations. Do not take the promise of building a new future to be a promise of building just a Jewish future. Now is a moment, a rare propitious moment, when it is possible for a different sort of lamentation and a different sort of rebirth. And it would be too pretty for me to say that we are now at one of these moments.
- [29:00]
C
And.
- [29:00]
A
And yet what the last hundred and something years of Tisha B'Av show, maybe most of all, is that the lamentation and desolation and destruction on the one hand, and the hope and the rebuilding on the other, they go together. The one never really replaces the other. This year on Tisha BAV in just a few days, as I speak these words, we will not be able to read Eicha Lamentations as in chapter two, verses 11 and 12. My eyes were warm out with tears, my innards roiled when babes and infants grew faint in the squares of the city to their mothers they say, where is grain and wine? As they faint like the slain in the squares of the city. We will not be able to read Echa without seeing those pictures from Gaza in our minds, just as we cannot read Echa without seeing those pictures from a Jerusalem a century ago after the earth earthquake and those Pictures from Poland 80 years ago and those pictures of caskets back from Sinai 52 years ago and those pictures from Sabran Chatila 43 years ago and those pictures from Raim and Be' Eri and Far Aza just 664 days ago. And at the same time we cannot read Eija Lamentations without knowing that buildings and lives can be rebuilt in Gaza for Gazans and here for us. And we have seen this over and over again. It is the story of our lives here. Our beasts cry out and then they cry out again and we can only continue to plow.
- [30:44]
Today, two topics. Topic 1 no guide to the perplexed as Gazans reach new heights, heights or depths of misery and tragedy as more of them are forced to try to survive on less food and a great cry rises around the world and Israel starts airdropping supplies and stops bombing and shooting during daylight hours to allow the UN and others to join the Gaza Humanitarian foundation and trying to get meals into stomachs of civilians. As all this is happening, we will try to figure out what we are seeing and what we ought to make of it as Israelis and as human people and discussion 2. Payday, where pay is spelt P A I X which as Mademoiselle Cohen taught me years ago, is French for peace. Get it? Payday. It works on so many levels, as French President Emmanuel Macron announced this week that come September, the French Republic will officially recognize the state of Palestine. As I know I do not need to tell you. Am I Emmanuel Macron anagrams to clamor? Amen, men. Though we will wonder whether this is what we ought to do, especially given the confusing fact that Emmanuel Macron also anagrams to calm men enamour as I know I do not need to tell you. Of course it also anagrams to men mourn a camel. So we are through the looking glass here, people, and for our most unreasonably generous patreon supporters in our extra special, special extra discussion, the link to which you can find in our show Notes on your podcast or at patreon.com promisepodcast on the world Wide Web. We will talk like everyone else about the conversation between Peter Beinart and Jon Stewart on the Daily show about Israel and Zionism and Judaism and Palestine and genocide. A Word of Warning before you listen to the conversation that we are talking about, you might want to turn off on your phone any of that arrogance detection software that you might have. Because while I was listening, my Smugometer went off repeatedly, as when Peter Beinhardt drew parallels between between his views and Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. S it literally caught fire. But before we get to any of that, please listen to this.
- [34:06]
Sam.
- [34:31]
That song is.
- [34:34]
Performed by Rona Canaan, a song for Tisha B', Av, and we will have new takes on old lamentations over the course of the show. And now it is time for our first discussion. So Alison, how should we understand what we are seeing and hearing of the suffering and misery and worse these days in Gaza?
- [34:52]
B
Well, under any circumstances it's hard to comprehend, and under these it's almost impossible to undertake. Understand, no matter where you're listening to us from, you've almost certainly seen the pictures and read the headlines and articles about Gaza. The pictures probably show a gaunt and hazard child or baby, maybe a gaunt and haggard mother. And the headlines and articles describe how hundreds of thousands of Gazans have been so short on food for long enough now that dozens have already died of malnutrition and thousands more may die over the next days and weeks. The articles may or may not use the word genocide to describe the causes of hunger and misery, and may or may not suggest that it is Israel's aim and unstated policy to starve Gazans until Hamas surrenders or until they perish. In my Hair podcast this week, I spoke to my Hairtz colleague Naram Zbedat. She's been in constant touch with lots of people in Gaza. We have several correspondents who that's basically what they do, talk to people in Gaza all day. She's been talking to people since the war started and Naram conveyed of what they are saying and feeling now. So if you want to hear the stories from the ground directly, not mediated by journalists that you normally get, feel free to tune in. Because it's so terribly important and because it is so terrible, it's hard to know exactly how to talk about what's going on in Gaza or even how to think about it, the starvation crisis seems to have developed, like Hemingway said, gradually, then all at once. Already only three days after October 7, a Tufts law professor named Tom Dannenbaum condemned Israel for the war crime of mass starvation in Gaza one month after the war started, just after the first Israeli soldiers crossed over the border, a magazine called the New Humanitarian warned of, quote, the slow death of starvation overtaking Gaza. Two months after the war started, the UN announced that one in four people in Gaza face extreme hunger from which they might soon die. But the early reports of mass starvation and the year and a half of such reports that followed were wrong. As the New York Times put it, though there have been food shortages in Gaza since Israel restricted aid supplies soon after the war began, the situation has never been as dire as it is now. The current crisis began in early March when Israel cut off all food supplies to the enclave. These supplies mostly came through the UN and other aid organizations. Israeli officials say that much of the aid ended up in Hamas's hands, owing both to a too chummy relationship the aid organizations had with the militant group and owing to the the fact that Hamas soldiers hijacked trucks of food that they then sold off to raise money to keep fighting Israel. The Times and others dispute this Israeli version of events, saying there is no good evidence that this is true. In any case, Israel, working with the Americans after weeks of no aid going into Gaza, set up a new NGO called the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, which set up three massive aid distribution centers that have delivered 90 million meals to Gazans over the past month and and a half, but have also been the sites of the shooting and stabbing deaths of hundreds of Palestinians who came to get food. Most of those killings by the idf, although according to Israel, some by Hamas men and members of competing Gazan clans or criminal groups.
- [38:11]
Concentrating all of the aid distribution in three sites, in contrast to the many dozens of smaller distribution sites the UN had set up, means that the centers brought great mobs of people seeking food, crowds which by their nature were harder to control, more volatile and hence scarier for soldiers who ended up firing upon them with awful frequency. So maybe you've noticed how I've been saying very often, quote, according to Israel, or quote, according to the un, or quote according to the Times. And that reflects something fundamental and frustrating about all this stuff. Journalist Maddie Friedman, in a much discussed essay called Is Gaza Starving Searching for the Truth in an Information War? Wrote that it is close to impossible to know today what is really happening in Gaza and why. He writes that, quote, nearly no trustworthy sources regarding reality in Gaza. Certainly not the Gaza Health Ministry, which answers to Hamas or Palestinian reporters intimidated by Hamas or the international organizations like the UN refugee agency unwra, embroiled in various forms of collaboration with Hamas. The international press isn't the answer. But neither can we Israelis trust our own government which has regularly misled the public about the war's progress. And we can't trust much of the information from the army, which regularly spins information overtly or by omission. Prime Minister Netanyahu said this week that, quote, there is no policy of starvation in Gaza and there is no starvation in Gaza. We have enabled humanitarian aid through the duration of the war to enter Gaza, otherwise there would be no Gazans. But even the Prime Minister seems to realize that few people are persuaded by his assurances. Even US President Donald Trump, who just said, quote, based on television, those children look very hungry. And maybe he himself is not convinced as this week Israel started air dropping food into Gaza and instituted a 10 hour per day ceasefire for humanitarian aid groups to give out food and press the UN to step up its food deliveries to Gazans the old fashioned way. Linda, like I said, it is really hard to know how to talk about what's going on in Gaza or even how to think about it. But you have built a career on talking and thinking about Israel and the Middle East. So what do you think we should be understanding from what we're seeing and hearing? What do you think we should be doing about what we're seeing and hearing? We in all three states senses we Israel, we as individual Israelis and we as in we are the world.
- [40:54]
C
First of all, I think it's important to say that Israel is in total control of Gaza right now. Israel controls something like 75% of Gaza and therefore Israel is responsible for what happens in Gaza. And the fact that there is is malnutrition, perhaps famine, starvation, which is what it seems to, is simply not acceptable that under the control of a Jewish country. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who say it's completely the fault of Hamas, that if Hamas wasn't stealing the aid, this wouldn't be happening. And first of all, just as a side note, the aid is still being stolen. The UN yesterday said that 85% of its trucks were looted. It's not clear if it was by Hamas or by other armed gangs. And so the aid is still not getting to the people who need to get to. So as you said, Alison, this isn't the first time that we've heard These claims of famine and starvation. However, this time feels different. It seems different. It's very hard to know, as Monty Friedman said. And in addition, the international press is still not allowed to enter enter Gaza 21 months after this conflict started. So it's very hard to sort of verify it. And all you can do is go by what humanitarian organizations are saying and those who were on the ground, doctors who have been volunteering in Gaza, hospitals. It seems like it has reached kind of a tipping point and the situation is very bad. And the fact that basically Netanyahu totally switched course, which means he basically is putting in effect these 10 hour cease fires and giving lots of aid for absolutely no return. So it seems that either he's sensitive to international pressure, he realizes that the situation as it is is not tenable. The figures that I saw say something like 100 Palestinians have died of starvation since the conflict began and that's apparently going to increase. Physicians for Human Rights came out with a new report which they called a genocide, which you can agree with or not agree agree with, but also said that because of malnutrition, that the health system is simply not functioning in Gaza and that, you know, especially children's bodies are so weakened by the lack of food that they're dying from causes that they shouldn't be dying from if, if they were healthier. So I think what we need to do, first of all, we Israel, I mean, I think we as individual Israelis and we the world, it's basically the same thing, get lots and lots of food into Gaza. The problem is the Gaza Humanitarian foundation has simply not been able to work. Hundreds Hamas says more than a thousand people were killed trying to access aid. So something's not working. Before the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, when the UN was in charge of the distribution, it seems that people were getting access to the aid. So I think that one of the demands of Hamas in this current round of ceasefire talks, which is kind of on hold, has been to, you know, to regain control over the food distribution. But to me, the issue of starving children in Gaza is not a political issue. Whether or not you think that the. You know what I've heard from my more right wing friends as well, There are no innocent people in Gaza. They all support Hamas. I personally don't believe that's true. But whether or not that's true, it is simply not acceptable what's going on. And we have to get massive amounts of aid in there. It's all at the border. Some of it is actually, actually inside Gaza. But the UN doesn't have safe routes to get it to its warehouses. Israel has to do everything possible to make sure this ends.
- [44:52]
Well.
- [44:52]
A
It obviously can't be true that everyone in Gaza is a Hamas supporters because that's not the way that the humans work. And we know that that is a really lamentable talking point of someone. And I think that you're right. While it is, while Matthew Friedman is definitely right that it is impossible to know fully what is going on right now and what has gone on to lead up to where we are right now with confidence, it really is unknowable to us. There are more than enough reasons to be pretty damn confident that there is this crisis of food and medicine and housing, frankly, in Gaza going on right now. The signs are all the signs that you said. The very fact that Netanyahu has acted really so kind of surprisingly decisively about this issue just in the last week.
- [46:00]
Is sign enough. The reports of doctors who are working in Gaza, including international doctors, that's enough. And also about something like this, you have to adopt some kind of precautionary principle. Even if you don't accept what to me seems to be obvious evidence, then you have to say if it might be happening and who cannot say it might be happening, then Gaza should be blanketed with food so that, at least that is not an issue. So, so yeah, there's, there seems to be no question about that. I think that I, I disagree with you about the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, which has served 90 million meals over the last month, which is, you know, a meal per, a meal and a half per person per day in Gaza. That's not nothing. And, and I think that the idea behind the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, which is to say we, we do not trust these international organizations, not either purposefully or inadvertently helping Hamas. We do not trust that they are not doing that. So we will set up an alternative. That idea on paper seems to be a good idea and the implementation to me seems to be partially successful and partially, tragically unsuccessful in that by its nature right now, it does bring together together mobs all the time. I mean, it, it's designed to have mobs and it's designed to be protected by IDF soldiers who, who have no capacity to really protect the mobs and protect the Gaza, the, the, the Gaza Humanitarian foundation people from the mobs and protect everyone from Hamas. It's just impossible. So, so like there, there are huge important flaws there, but I wouldn't immediately call it a failure. And then the last thing I'll say is just. You began. Linda by saying, well, Israel is obviously responsible for this. And I would say there are at least two importantly different meanings of the word responsible. One is that Israel. It is incumbent upon Israel. Israel to do its part to find a solution to this. And the other is that Israel caused this problem single handedly. And I accept the first definition. I think that Israel is there. Like David Horowitz wrote in a very, I think, moving and important editorial that he wrote this past week about how Israel has taken the responsibility for Gaza upon itself. He wrote critically thinking that that is a result of a series of hapless mistakes that Israel has made. I think that in that sense, Israel has to. Israel is the only one who can see that there is a solution that works, put in place immediately, that feeds these people. But the saying that Israel is responsible in the sense that Israel single handedly caused this, I think is not, not true because.
- [49:30]
C
Thank you for the clarification. I meant it the way that you just said it.
- [49:33]
B
She didn't say single handedly. She didn't use the word single handedly.
- [49:36]
C
No, no, but I also, I, I meant that Israel is responsible for fixing the problem. Now as the party in control of Gaza. I was not talking about what caused it.
- [49:43]
A
Allison, what do you say?
- [49:44]
C
I really wasn't.
- [49:45]
B
Oh, God, you. No, you bring out the wild eyed lefty in me. What can I, what can I say? The Gaza Humanitarian foundation is a complete and total failure and disaster. You don't.
- [49:57]
A
90 million meals.
- [49:58]
B
90 million meals that you set up at three locations far away from where the actual hungry women and children are. You make people take gigantic treks, go in big crowds, you throw boxes of food at them. That's a great success.
- [50:12]
A
No, I'm not saying it's a great success. I'm saying that it's not a total failure.
- [50:15]
B
That sounds like a total failure to me. Especially when people are 90 million in the process.
- [50:21]
A
One meal per day per every single person in Gaza is not a total failure.
- [50:26]
B
Distributed in a way that you don't. Distribute in a way that you, you don't know who they're getting to, how they're getting to it. Whether it's successful or not, we have no idea.
- [50:35]
A
I just think that. I just think that we're past the point of saying total failure because 90 million meals is meaningful.
- [50:43]
B
Is meaningful. And the price being people, you know, losing their lives and risking. I mean, the stories are horrible. I am biased by the fact that people I know and trust at Haaretz get on the phone and get on the Internet every single day and talk to actual people in Gaza. They're not talking to Hamas and they're not talking to the Israeli government and they're not, they are talking to people in Gaza. And we know that there's a whole spectrum between starving to death and you know, being, you know, happy and satisfied and having a full belly. And I think that, you know, there are far, far too many thousands of people on the sp that spectrum towards the starving plate. You may not be starving to death, but you've lost your job, you've lost your income, you've lost your home and you have no way of getting good access to the humanitarian distribution. You're hungry. I mean, things are terrible there.
- [51:36]
A
Absolutely.
- [51:38]
I just think that we will be better off when we stop talking in terms of total failure, total disaster. Total. Because 90 million meals is significant. Because one meal a day for every single person in Gaza is significant.
- [51:55]
B
I don't really care about the semantics and the splitting hairs between oh, they didn't starve to death and we said there was starvation and now there's starvation. You know, I'm sort of done with that and I think, you know, I would have spoken.
- [52:06]
A
No, that's not what I'm saying either. I'm not saying there's anything acceptable about this situation now. I'm just saying that part of the.
- [52:13]
B
Solution, Israel isn't single handedly and we're not totally, we are totally responsible. If you'd asked me a year and a half ago, I would have been on the same page with you probably. But we have now gone through months, years of Israel not coming to the table with any kind of workable, logical solution. We've essentially, we're not really fighting anybody there. We're sitting there and we're continuing to blow up tunnels and blow up houses and put our soldiers at risk and you know, close off Gaza from the world. Matti Friedman complaining about no accurate reporting from, from Gaza. We're not letting any international journalists in to report independently what's going on. So yeah, we do have to take Hamas's word for it. And the idea, part of his point.
- [52:55]
A
Was that the international, the international press is unreliable. So let's, how can they be reliable.
- [53:00]
B
If they can't go there and look with their own eyes at what's going on?
- [53:03]
A
It's not, he's, it's, he's saying that it's inherently biased. It's not so that letting them in would not be a solution to the motif Friedman problem.
- [53:12]
B
Why don't we let them in and See what happens.
- [53:15]
A
Remember what Mati Friedman argued in his article is that, you know, as a whistleblower against the ap, that there. That he saw personally the way in which articles were edited to the. To meet the demands of Hamas in the international press. So that's his argument.
- [53:32]
B
I'm not gonna get into a pro or anti Mati Friedman discuss because that's, you know, I think, not relevant. I think what is relevant is, you know, saying that we can't get accurate information on one hand and, you know, disputing what the international press reports on one hand, no matter how they get their information. And on the other, when they say, no, we want to go into Gaza and we want to look with our own eyes and see and report saying, well, let's not let them in for two years, because even when they go in that we're going to get inaccurate information anyway.
- [54:04]
C
So, you know, I have a friend in Gaza and I have been in touch with her since the beginning. Her name is Yara Mahmoud. I think I've mentioned her before.
- [54:13]
And she has been displaced. She's with her mother. It's just her and her mother. And her mother has had all these health problems. And I actually asked her yesterday, is any aid getting to you? And she said, absolutely nothing so far. She said, a kilo of flour is 70 shekel, which has gone down a little bit from what it was, but nobody has any money. And every couple of weeks she writes me and says, I hate to ask you again, but I really have nothing to eat. And I don't know, as a journalist, you discover you have a pretty good bullshit meter. And I think she's telling the truth. And she said, it's embarrassing to me to have to ask you. I have nothing to eat. And basically. So she's buying, Buying the aid that's being stolen from the trucks.
- [55:03]
But she has no alternative. She said, I can't. I asked her, why don't you go to one of these GHF centers? And she said, it's not safe. She said, I simply don't feel like it's safe to go.
- [55:14]
A
Yeah, all of that sounds completely true and completely in line with everything that we've seen. Absolutely. And again, I don't. I don't want to be in the position of.
- [55:29]
And I'm not in the position of making it seem as though there's anything okay about the circumstances in Gaza. My only point is that there is a terrible, in both senses of the word arrogance to saying that Israel is completely responsible, because obviously all of this is in Hamas interest. And Hamas is doing what it can to promote this as well, in all sorts of ways. Ways. And so it is terrible arrogance because it leads to terrible results to say this is all Israel's problem and Israel.
- [56:05]
This is caused entirely by Israel and Israel alone can solve it. And all international pressure must be brought singularly only on Israel instead of also on Hamas. I think that, I don't think you're doing anyone any favors.
- [56:20]
B
But if Israel pursued a policy of cutting off humanitarian aid to Gaza, how is Israel not responsible for the situation?
- [56:31]
A
Israel has a whole shit ton of responsibility for the situation. Absolutely. But this, this aspect of what's going on, like so many others, is this complicated mixture of the fact that, that there's a confluence of Israel's interest and Hamas's interest in making the people of Gaza suffer. That is terrible. And I think all aspects of that are worth paying attention to if it's.
- [57:05]
B
But Israel has the power to fix it and Hamas does not have the power to fix it. Therefore I would say the responsibility lies on Israel to fix it.
- [57:12]
C
And I would say, Noah, that it goes also back to an issue of not Israel not being willing to talk about anything in terms of the day after, not being willing to come to any sort of agreement with the PA about who's gonna be in charge of Gaza afterwards. But I do agree with you at the same time that these chaotic scenes that we're seeing, you know, some of it is Hamas. I mean, there are Hamas gunmen who are trying to get people killed because it's in their interest. So they're sort of stirring things up at these gaol. So I agree with you that the responsibility is on both sides. But I think if you flood enough aid to go in so much so that even if there's looting and even if Hamas is stealing part of the aid, at least it's getting to the people who want it and at the same time to seriously pursue some kind of longer term peace agreement and at least a temporary ceasefire. So, you know, and there's, I just wanna make one more point which is that another of these folks photos that the New York Times ran has been discredited now. And so that's, you know, I think that adds to this as not as a child not suffering from starvation. So for those who don't believe it's happening, they say, well look, you know, the international press is just making things up as they do all the time, so that discredits us as well, which is part of the problem.
- [58:39]
A
Now listen to this.
- [58:42]
B
Sahin.
- [59:08]
C
Sa.
- [59:35]
B
Kishamshi.
- [60:15]
A
That song is Al Narutb by Sapir Gizbar. Another lamentation ahead of Tisha Baav. And now it is time for our second discussion. So, Linda, a Palestinian state in September.
- [60:28]
C
Oh, I don't know.
- [60:30]
Hard to tell. And it's hard to tell what that means, you know, because the President of the Republic of France, Emmanuel Macron, simultaneously tweeted this week four versions of the same tweet in French, English, Arabic and Hebrew. The tweet said, among other things, quote, I have decided that France will recognize the state of Palestine. I will make this solemn announcement before the United Nations General assembly this coming September. The urgent priority today is to end the war in Gaza and to bring relief to the civilian population. Peace is possible. We need an immediate ceasefire, the release of all hostages and massive humanitarian aid for the people of Gaza. We must also ensure the demilitarization of Hamas, secure and rebuild Gaza. And finally, we must build the state of Palestine, guarantee its violence viability and ensure that by accepting its demilitarization and fully recognizing Israel, it contributes to the security of all in the region. There is no alternative. In light of the commitments made to me by the President of the Palestinian Authority, I have written to him to express my determination to move forward. It is urgent to implement the only viable solution to fulfill the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people, end all forms of terrorism and violence, and enable Israel and all this region's countries to live in peace and security. Included in the tweet is an image of a two page letter that President Macron sent to President Abbas, covering much the same ground as the text of the tweet, but adding that the Palestinian president has agreed that Hamas will be disarmed and will withdraw from the governance of Gaza and to presidential general elections in 2020 and to the immediate release of the hostages held by Hamas. And it wasn't just Macron. Just a few days later, British Prime Minister Keir Sturmer said that the UK would recognize a Palestinian state in September unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the war and humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Stirmer also said that Israel must recommit to a viable peace process. And that was followed by Canada and Australia and other other countries. Now, Sturmer's announcement wasn't a promise, more like a threat and a way to pressure Israel to end the war in Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu shot back, saying the move rewards Hamas's monstrous terrorism. As for President Macron, the tenor of his message was one of general positivity, but that is not how his pre recognition of a Palestinian state was received here. Prime Minister Netanyahu said, quote, we condemn President Macron's decision to recognize a Palestinian state right next to Trump Tel Aviv in light of the massacre of October 7th. A step like that is a reward for terror that creates the danger of setting up another Iranian proxy like what happened in Gaza. A Palestinian state in these conditions will be a base for attacks to destroy Israel, not to live next to it in peace. Let us be clear. The Palestinians do not seek a state alongside Israel. They seek a state to replace Israel. Foreign Minister Gidon Sar said that a Palestinian state will be a Hamas state, just like the withdrawal from Gaza 20 years ago led to its control by Hamas. Even Benny Gantz, one of the leaders of the opposition, called President Macron's announcement an empty and fanciful declaration which serves extremists instead of moderates. In contrast, the editors of Haaretz published a cry to embrace President Macron's plan entitled Macron is right about the two states. They said flatly, macron is right. Only a two state solution in which a Palestinian state is established will enable a normal life for the two nations living between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. There is some sleight of hand in this statement, as President Macron did not just say that we need a two state solution. He said that a two state solution is viable in September, which is something the editors of Haaretz themselves probably do not see is realistic. Alison, I know that you have champagne and caviar with the editors of Haaretz every day. So you are the best person I could possibly ask. What should we make of President Macron's single handed try at creating a Palestinian state and a two state solution? Is it crazy or is it so crazy it just might work?
- [64:52]
B
I mean, I don't know how much I take it seriously as a serious proposal. What it is supposed to be is a serious threat. I think that the Macron, along with all of these Western leaders death desperately, desperately look at what's happening in Gaza and they want to do something and nothing that they've tried has moved the needle with Netanyahu so far, especially since he has Donald Trump in his corner. And I think they are trying to think of a threat of something that's going to change the direction in which the Israeli government is moving and therefore they've pulled out this threat of recognizing a Palestinian state which they know is, is really anathema to him. So I mean, I don't know if it's a workable solution. I don't even know if it's worth discussing, if it's a workable solution that the world pushes and recognizes and all of the major powers recognize the non existent Palestinian state, just like the United nations has taken steps to do. I don't think that's actually going to change the reality on the ground. I think what's most important is what, whether that is going to be a lever to actually make Netanyahu and his government feel like they've crossed some sort of line with the international community and something has to be done. I don't know how effective it's going to be. And I honestly, if you ask me is it a workable plan, I say no.
- [66:18]
A
First of all, if President Macron has powers of incantation and if him saying this could make it true, what he's suggesting I think would obviously be a really good thing for Israel.
- [66:32]
B
There's something, or we all do. Yeah.
- [66:34]
A
It's not just the two state solution. It's very particularly a two state solution that I think that most Israelis would embrace, though not our ruling government, because it calls for elections right away for Hamas not to be part of those elections. It calls for a demilitarian, militarized state within the west bank and Gaza. And it's very similar to the plan that Ehud Olmert and Abbas had negotiated in 2009 that Abbas then pocket vetoed. He took the maps and then stopped. He basically ghosted the Israelis after that.
- [67:16]
And in fact, what Macron is suggesting is even less advantageous to the Palestinians than the plan that Olmert agreed to in 2009. So it would be a great thing if it could happen. But like you said, Alison, one important question is could it happen? And I think that.
- [67:36]
Here there's probably a pretty broad agreement that it will take a lot of work to get to a point and a lot of time probably to get to a point where such a thing is possible. That said, I like this. I like this as an approach to, like you were saying, Alison, to pressuring the Israeli government to withdraw from Gaza. And I like this as an approach to what the next step ought to be. In general, I think that when Saudi Arabia joins in this call, as it might, then.
- [68:14]
I think that it's good to have this out there where this particular proposal, I think it was very clever on Macron's part. I will just add, how is it going to backfire? It is going to backfire because within Israel on the right, there is going to be a call that the reaction to this should be some form of annexation of the West Bank. There's something, it's like Newton's second law of an equal and opposite reaction. I suspect that that reaction is going to. To be coming and that Israel could, in one form or another, do. And that would be terrible. I mean, it would be undoable and it would ultimately be undone, but it would be a terrible next step. Linda, what do you think about all of this?
- [68:59]
C
So, first of all, there are already 147 countries that recognize Palestine. Palestine is an observer at the United Nations. There's Palestinian teams in the Olympics already. So I'm not sure what this does, other than the fact that it's coming from France and Britain and Canada.
- [69:21]
Does give it a certain push. At the same time, I also think that I am not totally pessimistic about the future. I don't know that I'm optimistic. But I think that eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later, the war in Gaza is going to end. There will be some kind of rebuilding of Gaza. There will have to be some sort of, sort of governance in place that will not include Hamas. So a lot of what Macron is talking about is going to happen anyway. And I think there was just this conference about a Palestinian state this week or last week in which they also called for Hamas to be disarmed, for all of the hostages to be released. This is the international community. So I think what it's doing is reflecting so certain international consensus about what should happen here that I agree with you both, Noah and Allison, that I think these are kind of good things for eventual, for long term, Israel. What I think is a little bit dangerous is the kind of diplomatic pressure and the diplomatic how Israel has sort of lost world support. And I think in the long term, that could potentially, potentially be very dangerous. But I agree that in the long term, I mean, there are two peoples living in this very small piece of land and neither of them is going away. So I agree with you that what Macron says makes sense to me.
- [70:50]
B
I mean, just the fact that he's doing it and just the fact that all of these other leaders, Great Britain, Canada, are jumping on the bandwagon is, you know, just in itself this, like, terrible sign of what we've come to diplomatically and strategically. It just shows what a complete failure the pursuing this policy has been.
- [71:11]
A
And because they're doing it unilaterally, because they're doing it against Israel's wishes and because it, it seems to be actually fairly sensitive to Israel's needs.
- [71:23]
B
Oh, because it just shows that Israel has so backed away from having any kind of serious conversation with any element of the international community on the what what Linda said on the day after, on the end game on any sort of a vision for the future of Gaza, when we don't present any vision, when we don't have any direction, when we're just scrambling and by we, I mean Netanyahu's government, we scrambling to survive politically from day to day and try to satisfy our far right wing and try to satisfy the international community when it's all that kind of improvisation without a plan, leading nowhere, sticking us in the terrible mud that we're in. And again, not sitting down with any international partners for a solution, but then again, really needing these international partners when let's say Iran decides to attack us strategically, it's terrible that we're not that we're not in any kind of cooperative relationship with them regarding a diplomatic solution. I mean, it's just a sign of how badly what a complete abject failure and absence of strategy that we have in this entire, entire situation.
- [72:35]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that Benjamin Netanyahu's analysis is that the world divides up into Trump and everyone else and he is on the side of Trump and he is talking just to Donald Trump, who is frankly not saying much back and is not a man of vision about the Middle east in any case.
- [73:00]
B
And not the most reliable guy in the world either.
- [73:02]
A
Right. Yeah. Now listen to this.
- [73:27]
Sam.
- [74:16]
Satisfaction by Shuli Rand, Shai Tsabari and Ravid Kahlani Another lamentation for these days. I like a lamentation that you can make out to and now it is time for our But a Country segment. This is the part of the show in which each of us describes something that maybe brought us some solace as we wended our way through our worlds over the last little while. Or possibly surprised and amused, delighted and enchanted and soresaled or could be even fluged us as we did that self Same wending Linda what is your what a Country?
- [75:13]
C
Well, for the first time on this podcast I am going to use the what a Country to recommend a book. I often talk about food and wine and this book is called Perfect Enemy by Alex Sinclair. And for full disclosure, I met Alex and his wife Perry recently and when I was at Lemud in Australia and New South Zealand and the book was actually written in 2023. It was published so before everything that's happened in the war. And I love good literature. I like Mo. I'm in a very shishi Book club where I'm the stupidest person in the book club. And we read lots of. We read both classics and other stuff. I personally really like literature, literary fiction, and this book is none of those. This book is a thriller actually, and it starts with. I'm just going to read you the first sentence from the back. In a covert laboratory under the streets of Tel Aviv, Akiva Cohen, an Israeli scientist, clones Hitler from old samples of his DNA. Akiva wants to change the world for the good, but he is betrayed by those who want to use this new Hitler for unimaginable.
- [76:32]
And the book is really fun. And even though it's fun and I became quite invested in the characters, it also has a lot to say about revenge, which is obviously appropriate.
- [76:46]
For us these days. It has a lot to say about terrorism, about relationships between Arabs and Jews, about Israeli politics, about the Knesset. And it's the kind of book that you can kind of, you know, it's a page turner. And I quickly began invested in the characters. I found them quite realistic and it's sort of a Michael Crichton type thriller. And you know, first the idea of having a perfect enemy I thought was kind of interesting too, and I just would, I really enjoyed it. And it's always fun to read something that's different there. By the way, as I'm sitting here looking at my very, very crowded bookshelves, there is a Japanese for owning books that you're probably never going to read but that give you a lot of pleasure. So I'm a big book collector and I love books. But this is just a really, really fun book and I would urge everyone to read it.
- [77:49]
A
Hear, hear. Alison, what is your widow country?
- [77:51]
B
Oh, it's a good time for a fun book, isn't it, Noah? It is, it is definitely. So on Tuesday I met a friend's father, Shiva in Ramatgan, and everyone's phone starts blaring. People look at their phones and they practically shrug. Oh, it's the Houthis just throwing a missile at us. The Mahmoud, the protected room at the house where the Shiva happened was so small that like not everyone could jam into it. Luckily, my friend's son is an officer in the Picuta Orif in the home front command. So he effectively commanded the whole Shiva to go into the stairwell, to go into the stairs, and no one missed a beat. They kept talking, they kept chatting, and then they go back into the house. So it is literally crazy, crazy, crazy how normalized all this stuff is. Barely makes our news and, and doesn't make the international news at all, as at every turn, you know, this drags on. We can't forget about the hostages and their family. You know, we in the media do news and news is what is new. And the fact that the hostages are still there and still suffering isn't really news. I was very touched by a teenage sister of a hostage, Gaia gilboa Dalal. The 16 year old sister of hostage Guy Gilboa Dalal. I thought it was interesting that parents named their kids Guy and Gaia. Anyway, she was on television talking about what it's like to be a teenager living like this for two years, another with another teenage sister of a hostage. And I was touched by the one sided WhatsApp text conversation she has with her brother. You know, back in the old days, a girl like her would be keeping a diary, maybe to share with her brother when he returned. And instead she sends him on a ra regular basis, WhatsApp messages, photos of cool things she's seen. She keeps her dialogue and connection going with him in hopes that he's going to return and that she can show him everything. The, the whole WhatsApp conversation. And I really thought that was really beautiful how she keeps that connection going in the mind with her brother. And finally in the scattershot. What a country. I really want to put a word in marking the passing of actor Alona Bootboul, who was officially my first Israeli celebrity crush. Natalie Port level Noah. He's exactly my age, it turns out, and when I was a hormone laden young woman in Israel for the first time, he starred in these two classic Lebanon war films. One's called One of Us and the other is Shtetz B Ot Mitzidon, two fingers from Sidon. In both case, he was a young, sexy, fiery Israeli soldier. He was never conventionally handsome, but he was super attractive. And it was that intensity that served him well, especially when later in life he launched a very late bloomer Hollywood career specializing in playing bad guy Middle Eastern terrorists or bad guy Russian agents. He has one of those faces that can go Ashkenazi or Sardi, can go Middle east or Eastern European. And we were all very proud of him when we saw him in films like Munich and and the Dark Knight Rises. He also interestingly became the face of alternative family life when he went on television recently with his wife Sheer. And they talked about their relationship as what they called pim, a word that's a mashup of separated and divorced. They were still married, permanently separated but not divorced, living in the same home with their children, but leaving living these separate but harmonious lives. And it was a real coming out of the closet, a very brave step in our relatively conventional society to talk about that publicly. So Alona Bhutbul was brave and brash and full of life in many ways. Sadly, he's gone now. He was just honored in a memorial ceremony, in fact, today at the Habima Theater. And, yeah, he was my crush. And may his memory be a blessing.
- [81:39]
A
Yeah. Hmm, Sad. So I was on the plane coming home, and I got a cup of wine, and the guy next to me, he also got a cup of wine. And we put our pretty full cups of wine on our tray tables, which were of a sort that once you folded them down, could be slid forward or back on a glide of some sort. And the man next to me had his tray slid a little bit forward, and he had his wine a little bit forward on the tray. And you probably see where I'm going with this. All at once, the woman in front of him abruptly reclined her seat back into the most reclining position, which was surprisingly reclined. I think it was like 35 or 40 degrees back. And it happened all at once, without any warning. Trach and the seat back caught the plastic cup on its way down, bending it, spilling some of the wine forward. But then I guess the compressed plastic of the cup was at some tension, and it sprung back, sending the cup of wine careering thwap into the chest of the fellow sitting next to me and then onto his lap. It was all very dramatic. And then there was one of those short moments that feel like a long moment that will be familiar to anyone who has ever had a very little kid. It's that moment just after they go down hard, flat on their face. Boom. And after the boom, there's this interval of strange silence and calm before the whale comes. And then, in our case, we had the trach of the table and then the thwop of the cup. And I look at the fellow sitting next to me, and he looks at me, and we're like, did that really happen? And there is wine everywhere. It is like if Charles Manson was your sommelier. And no one has a clue about what just happened, save for the two of us. Not the woman in front of us who's just trying to sleep, not anyone. And the guy next to me holds his arms out in front of him and wine is siphoning off them, and he shakes his arms like a dog, and he's. He looks at me and he just starts to laugh. And I laugh. And then I get up and find a flight attendant in the event, the woman who just a minute before had given us the wine. And she comes over really fast, and she looks at the man, and she does two things that endear her to me forever. First, she says, oi, lo. Oh, no. And it may be because that's what my own girl says in situations like this. I melt a little. Oi lo. And then she just starts to laugh. And the guy sitting next to me, he is laughing, and I am laughing, and the flight attendant is standing in the aisle, she is laughing. And that goes on for what feels like a long time. And the flight attendant says, I'll go get something. I'll go get something. And she runs, literally runs up the aisle to the galley. And when she comes back, in just seconds, in each hand, she is holding a big stack of Napkins, like maybe 250 napkins in each hand. And she says to the guy, this is what I think, that he takes a stack of napkins, and I take a stack of napkins, and I'm wiping the armrest and his tray table, and he's blotting his shirt and his pants and the cushion on the seat that he's sitting on, and I say, it must be so sticky. And he says, oh, yeah, it is sticky, all right. And the flight attendant comes back with a couple of blankets, and she says, cover the cushions with these. And the guy does. And she asks the guy what happened? And he tells her, and then he says, well, I learned one important lesson today. Always slide your tray table towards yourself. And the flight attendant says, I guess so now. And the woman in the seat in front of us, she is sleeping by now. And no one has a harsh word for her, and no one has a harsh word for anyone. It's just some shit that went down. There is an affable fatalism to it all and an appreciation for the slapstick of it. And I remember a conversation between two men that I once overheard working out in the gym. One guy says, hey, I haven't seen you here for a long time. And the other guy says, yeah, my leg's been messed up. I even had to have an operation. And the first guy said, oh, that's terrible, man. And. And the other one says, it's even worse than that. I had the operation, but the doctor, he made a mistake, and he operated on the wrong leg. And I had to go through weeks of recovery on that leg before they did the operation on the right leg, because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to get around even on crutches, because I would have had two legs that had just been operated on. And the first guy said, oh man, what a story. What did you do about the doctor? And the second guy, he looks up, completely uncomprehending and says, what do you mean, what did I do about the doctor? And the first guy said, well, you know, he operated on the wrong leg. And the second guy, finally getting it, says, yeah, but it was an honest. And the first guy says, yeah, what are you gonna do? I guess. And I am just like lifting weights nearby overhearing this. And I think first I have just heard the least American conversation that I have ever heard. And next I think, I guess that is what 50 generations of pogroms and such will do to you. The fatalism, it gets into the DNA, but there's this affability to it, a slap on the back. It'll be a good story. What difference does it make in the long run to it? And I have never found this particular trait anywhere. It might be in other places as well, but I've never seen it anywhere. And even though I am myself sticky with secondary splash zone red wine, or I guess especially when I'm sticky with secondary splash zone red wine, it's just another thing that I love about these people in this place.
- [86:51]
And that brings us to the end of our show. Thanks to Itai Shelham, our station manager, without which there would be none of this. Thanks to Achibo Lim, my favorite band from Kibbutzkeva. They give us some music at the start and the end of our show. Thank you, Alison. Thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Linda. We would like to thank all of our Patreon supporters for your generosity and support. It keeps the show going, keeps the station going. It keeps us moved and grateful and in your debt. And we'd like to thank all of you out there for taking the time to listen and ask you to like us on Facebook and drop us a line. We are eventually going to answer. If we don't drop us the line again, we're sorry, we will eventually answer. After you do that, go to Apple Podcasts and give us a five star review. Maybe one that starts with this. The most common word used in Germany to describe the impulse to listen to the Promise podcast is Trots horung svatsenation Bedorfnisch, which is of course untranslatable, but might best be rendered as a knee to listen, driven by some sick fascination, despite knowing better. That's the word that most everyone out there in Mittel Europa uses to describe the thing, though it is also sometimes referred to as Eichmann Rascia or Eichmann's Revenge. Da da da. Finish that any way you want. But before you do that, remember that today as we record on July 31, we celebrate international Lifeguard Appreciation Day. So stipulated way back in 2020 by Ellis & Associates or Ena, arguably the world's best quot risk management and aquatics company, identifying issues surrounding aquatic safety and continually creating new safety driven programs geared towards accident prevention and accountability. End quote. ENA has 550 clients in 42 countries, your water parks, your water slides, your log flumes, your wave pools and all other such water based entertainment establishments, helping them develop safety systems, training lifeguards, evaluating structures for safety and general yar ness, all with the one overriding goal of quote unquote zero drowning. And so you can see why it was ENA that pioneered International Lifeguard Appreciation Day, which you can celebrate as you learn from the site www.internationallifeguardappreciationday.com by thanking your neighborhood water park, gym or club lifeguard simply. Simply by telling them thank you for all you do. The best way to show your appreciation to a lifeguard is to follow facility rules, keep an eye on your children or weak swimmers, and willingly follow lifeguard instructions like no duh. And I love International Lifeguard Appreciation Day. It's probably my favorite day of the entire year because lifeguards are like God hovering above, mostly unseen, save for when they are needed and they sweep swoop into action. At these moments they are arguably less like God who does not so much swoop into action and they save you from everything from bumps to the head to strong currents to riptides. And I love the day because of Tamar Milisov expanding the horizons for girls and everyone else on the Jerusalem beach just by being who she is, where she is and doing what she does. Lifeguards rock. And yet, even though International Lifeguard Appreciation Day is not yet halfway over and as I speak already I have a knot in my stomach because I feel like before I know it it will be over. Like when six in the evening rolls around, then it's quitting time and that last announcement comes on the beach saying that from now until 7 in the morning we are on our own, the lifeguards gone, leaving us alone and vulnerable for way, way too long. Not so the Promise podcast. We will be back for you next week and every week reminding you that while it is some people's job to keep you from drowning. Drowning in water. It seems to be other people's jobs to make sure that you continue week to week splashing and flailing your arms to feel like you are drowning in angst. On this the Promise podcast.