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- [00:00]
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- [01:13]
Brett
I'm Brett.
- [01:14]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [01:15]
Brett
And we are the prosecut today on the Prosecutors. Strange shadows in the night. Televisions turning on and off. Objects moving without any apparent cause. A tale better told in October. No, something far, far more terrify. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my peachy co host, Alice Peachy.
- [02:17]
Alice
Hey. Bringing a little spring into this dark, dark winter and this dark, dark story.
- [02:22]
Brett
That was CMP's word for you. Peachy. Peachy keen.
- [02:28]
Alice
Okay. I love it. That was like, you guys know of my love of gummy candies, so I'm like. Because I'm a child, apparently you're supposed to lose that taste for, like, gummy candies as you get more refined and older and you like, you know, rich. Tastes like chocolate, which I also love. But one of my favorite gummies are peach rings, so I figured you were.
- [02:48]
Brett
Gonna talk about peach rings.
- [02:49]
Alice
Thank you. Thank you.
- [02:50]
Brett
I love gummies as well. I'm a fan. Just a gummy bears. Just the look.
- [02:54]
Alice
They're all good.
- [02:55]
Brett
Gummy bears.
- [02:57]
Alice
They're all good. They're truly, truly all good. But thank you for that little breath of fresh air before we dive into really one of the most horrific cases.
- [03:06]
Brett
Yeah.
- [03:07]
Alice
When we get into this, I know I've told this story on the podcast.
- [03:10]
Brett
Before, but you can tell again.
- [03:12]
Alice
I will tell it again because it's so horrific and it's so on point. But this experience of mine that you will hear about from law school touches right on what we're about to talk about. I did not die in my experience, but you see how close to kind of the edge you always are. So that's why this case really struck a chord with me, because it was a little too close to home.
- [03:35]
Brett
Well, this case is going to take us all the way back to June 1986. So Frank Bowen and his daughters, Tina and Karen, they began to notice some strange happenings at their home in Pepperell, Massachusetts. So it started out innocuous enough. Strange sounds throughout the evening, human shaped shadows on the wall. Which doesn't seem innocuous to me, by the way. Maybe innocuous wasn't the right word to use there. And someone repeatedly ding dong, ditching the home. But things only got stranger. Tina and Karen would pour a glass of milk and then find that it had been drank before they were even able to take a sip. The channels on the TV would change without the family members touching any sort of remote control or the television itself. Food and personal belongings began to go missing. Now, this was weird. Obviously, I've never experienced anything like this. But Frank, he was skeptical when his daughters came and told him about all these strange things that were happening. And I have a deal with my wife, because the one thing I've noticed about horror movies, horror novels and everything else is the significant other never believes it. They always doubt, and it always turns out that they're right. And then, you know, the other person's telling them, hey, this is happening, this strange thing's happening. And they're always like, oh, Susanna, it's fine. I'm sure it's nothing. It's all in your head. And then, sure enough, it turns out, it's like, you know, either the house is haunted by some ancient evil or some serial killer is after them or whatever. And if only they'd listened, they could have saved everybody. And usually the husband or wife who doesn't believe is one of the people who ends up dead. So anyway, so I deal with my wife always. If I ever tell you, you know, this crazy weird thing's happening, you have to believe it. So hopefully she'll stick to that anyways. But dad, he is skeptical. He does not believe he hears his daughters telling him this. And he thinks that they are still having a hard time coping with the death of their mother who had died Only a year prior. And this is perfectly logical. I can imagine thinking something like this. And that's, that's what he's saying. He's like, these weird things are all in the girls heads. Everybody processes grief differently. They're obviously doing that. They've suffered this tragedy. So I'm going to let them sort of, I'm going to indulge these fantasies they have, but there's nothing to it. But things continued to escalate. One day the phone lines to the house were cut. And at this point it became clear that something was really wrong. And the Bowens began to consider selling their home.
- [06:17]
Alice
Yeah, this is already starting out like a horror movie. It sounds like the haunting. It sounds like something just horrifically wrong. And it's gotten so bad that they're even thinking about leaving. So let's walk through what exactly they were experiencing. December 8, 1986. At 5:30pm, Tina and her sister Karen and their friend Kathleen and their father Frank all arrive home. But when they pull up, they immediately notice that the things in their house are not as they left it. The lights were all turned on. And strangely enough, as if out of a horror movie, all the radios and TVs were turned on in the home. So there was sound blaring. This was not something they had done. Frank Bowen was immediately suspicious. Good man.
- [07:03]
Brett
Like finally, finally died.
- [07:04]
Alice
Finally you had to have all the things turned on. And so he starts looking cautiously inside each room. I just have to say, if I roll up to my house and the lights were previously off and now they're on and it used to be silent and now things are blaring. I'm not going to go check what's happening. I don't want to find a ghost. I don't want to find a zombie. I don't want to find a serial killer. So just so you know, if that's the way you plan on killing me, bad choice because I'm just going to run away. That's not Frank, though. Frank is there with three young girls that he's in charge of. And he begins doing what we see in a lot of movies. He walks around slowly and he opens door after door. You do that because you expect to find something, right? Well, while he's doing this, he noticed that more things in the house are out of place. He notices, for example, that the basement toilet had been used. Okay, so maybe we're stepping outside the realm of not ghosts. Because ghosts, as I understand it, don't need to use the restroom. So Frank continues scanning the house. And he opens a closet towards the front of the house. And staring right back at him. This man was wearing a furry coat with his face painted and his hair sticking straight up. I guess this is exactly what you expect to see if you are cautiously going through your home where it's clear that someone has been through it. And one of the most horrifying things is facing him. Because not only is it a seemingly crazy person, it's a crazy person who's armed with a hatchet and a wrench that can do some serious harm.
- [08:36]
Brett
You talking about something straight out of a horror movie. I mean, it's not just there's somebody in the house, but, like, the face painted and the hair sticking straight up. I mean, I just. I don't know. Like, you talk about terrifying. I think I would just have a heart attack right there. I would just have a heart attack and drop dead. And I wouldn't. I mean, can you imagine?
- [08:54]
Alice
No, no, I really. I really actually can't imagine. You know, we've talked about the murder committed by the clown who rings the doorbell. And I told you that if a clown ra doorbell, I would run. You know, probably because of that story. But also here, this is horrifying on so many levels because this is clearly not just a home intrusion. You know, the turning the lights on, turning the radios on, being there long enough to have to use the bathroom. This means someone's been there for a while and they're lying in wait, basically expecting, if not leaving, a Hansel and Gretel like, trail of breadcrumbs to be found. And that's exactly what happens. He's found and he's not done yet.
- [09:32]
Brett
I gotta say, not to keep interrupting, but you made a good point earlier, and I just want to emphasize it. What exactly did Frank think he was going to find? Like, how did he think this was going to be?
- [09:41]
Alice
Like a bunny.
- [09:42]
Brett
Like a cute little bunny, Girls.
- [09:45]
Alice
The bunny just accidentally switched on all the lights and hit all the buttons to play the radios.
- [09:49]
Brett
Like, you open enough doors, eventually you're going to find something behind one. And this is about as horrifying as it could be. But no matter what you found, it would not be a good thing.
- [09:57]
Alice
I mean, can I also point out one other thing? Let's say he didn't find anything. Let's say he opened every single door and it's. He finds nothing. I wouldn't stay there the night. I wouldn't be like, well, they clearly got away, but they got in my house in the first place. Someone Was here and be like, ladies, whoever was here has now left, Come in, and let's do our sleepover after all. Like, no, I'm not going to stay. Yeah, we checked all the closets. Not the attic, but, you know, the closets are good. Okay, well, the horror doesn't end there because it's not like he finds the intruder. And the intruder just, like, walks himself out and say, yeah, sorry, turn all the lights on. Your electric bill is going to be real high. No. The intruder calmly instructed Frank and the girls to go to the bedroom. And at this point, Frank does some quick thinking. He doesn't do what the intruder said. In fact, he slams the door and he wedges it shut behind him. Good thinking. Locking the intruder on the other side. So while he does this, that's about as far as his plan went. Because as soon as he locks him in, he's like, well, now I have an intruder who has a hatchet. So, you know, hatchet versus door Hatchet will eventually win. He has to come up with a plan. And while he's trying to come up with a plan, Tina Bowen panics and does what I was gonna do. She jumps out the window, and she runs as fast as she can to the neighbor's house to report what's going on. Thank goodness, by the way. Tina. Way to go, Tina. Because otherwise, help wasn't gonna be on the way.
- [11:22]
Brett
Tina has the gift of fear. Tina has.
- [11:23]
Alice
I have the gift of fear as well.
- [11:25]
Brett
Tina knows when it's time. There's a time to plan, and there's a time to jump out the window. And this was a time to jump out the window.
- [11:30]
Alice
So can I also say, she didn't take anyone with her. I know, hey, like my dad and sister, you know? Well, also, this is an every man for himself situation. If a man hatchets in my closet, I would say all four of you scatter.
- [11:43]
Brett
Right? So at this point, she's ran to the neighbor. The neighbor calls the police, and they are racing to the scene. They interview Tina as well as the neighbor, and Tina is telling them what's going on. She gives them the phone number to the home. They try calling, but of course, the calls are unanswered. At this point, they surround the home, making a plan on what they're going to do. You have a situation where a guy, you know, is armed and pretty clearly out of his mind, and you have these civilians who are there as well, and you don't know what the situation is. You don't know if he's gotten into that bedroom. If he's now taking them hostage, what the danger is, the police are not just going to start opening doors and closets and seeing what they find. So they surround the house. And as they're getting ready, they're also making a plan, just like Frank was earlier. Well, Frank now sees them and he is now calling to them from the second story window. So they managed to get up to the house. Frank lowers the two other girls down to them, and then he jumps down himself. So now all the civilians are out of the home. The police can enter the home, and the only danger is to them. They don't have to worry about the civilians. So they go in, they search the home, they search the surrounding area, they search the woods behind the house for any sign of the intruder, but they aren't able to find him. He has disappeared just as quickly as he appeared. He is now gone and they don't know where he went. So some point, you know, while the family's unlocked in this bedroom and Tina's running, it appears to them that he has escaped. So the sliding back door to the home was slightly open, and they found a hatchet and a wrench on the ground near the porch steps. And at this point they're like, okay, this is what happened. He slipped out through the sliding glass door. He left his weapons here. He's taken off before we can get to him. So no one knew who this was. It wasn't immediately obvious to the family or law enforcement. Obviously, this person had their face painted. They're dressed in a fur coat with their hair standing on end. Not easy to ID them. The physical description given by the Bowen family varied from person to person. You can imagine this is a high stress situation. They're all freaking out. They're describing it. They all saw the same guy, but they're all describing a different person. So this is not very helpful. There's not a whole lot of evidence to go off of. And it appears the intruder was not only wearing a fur coat, he was also wearing gloves. So the hatchet and the wrench had no fingerprints on them, so they couldn't use fingerprints to identify him. And the Bowens were told probably shouldn't stay at the house tonight, which some obvious advice from the police, but best advice you could give. And you know what? They agreed. So they decide, we're leaving the house. We're not going to stay at the house tonight. We don't know if the guy will come back. They go off to stay somewhere else.
- [14:31]
Alice
Two days pass, and on December 10th, Frank Bowen calls the Pepperell Police Department again. This time, when the police arrive, Frank tells them that when he got home to grab some of their family belongings because they had, remember, left the house and were staying away. I would stay away probably forever. I'd be like, I cede this house to you, painted man. But they are smartly not staying there. So he comes home to pick up some things, and he sees the intruder from two days prior in the window. Now he's inside the house. This time, Frank doesn't go in by himself. He calls the police. The police come inside and they are met with a horrifying sight. The police sees a knife stabbed into the wall of the house, and a message was written on the furniture in shaving cream. And it said, I am in your room. Literally the stuff of nightmares. Right? Another message was written on the wall in the kitchen, and it said, I'll be back with a photo of the Bowen daughters with a knife stabbed through it. And as if this is not horrifying enough, there are two glasses of champagne on the counter poured, but neither was drank. And a BB gun was found in the basement.
- [15:44]
Brett
I just.
- [15:45]
Alice
This. Doesn't this sound like a. Like a script? Like we're reading a script of a movie? It's like policeman walks in and sees.
- [15:53]
Brett
If you saw this in a horror movie, you'd be like, that's ridiculous. That's too much. You've gone too far. Script writers like the knife stabbed through the photo. Too much. And the I'll be back in your room. And the champagne, the two glasses of champagne.
- [16:09]
Alice
Like, who is it for? Is it for the girls? Is it for him when he kills each girl? Like, what is this? What's the symbolism?
- [16:15]
Brett
Yeah. Now, I mean, the BB gun is really not that big a deal, but everything else is just terrifying. And this is a true story. This, all this. I promise you, all this absolutely happened.
- [16:25]
Alice
Yeah, absolutely. And also note that this is two days later. So is this intruder just hanging out indefinitely until they come back to see these messages? Did he do these messages right after they had left the house on the 8th? Or did he just come back two days later and he happened. The fact that he's seen in the window, I don't think it was that much of a coincidence. I think what it shows is the intruder's been there the whole time. Right. Because for it to be a coincidence that he sees him when he just happens to drop by. He doesn't know when Frank's going to drop by to get his belongings. They've been gone for two days. So the fact that he even catches a sight of him, this intruder in the window, tells me that he's been just hanging around at their house. Like at this point, I cede house to you, painted man. That's it. I'm never coming back. But even more strangely, despite a clear intrusion, not only did Frank see someone through the window, there's knives stabbed through pictures of the Bowen girls, there's messages written in the house. The police can't find a sign of an intruder. This really puzzled investigators because all the doors were locked and there were no footprints in the snow leading away from the house to the house, anything like that. But the officers weren't giving up, which I'm glad because this is clearly a soon to be crime scene. It's definitely a crime scene because there's an intruder. And they searched the home again. This time they noticed that the toilet in the basement, remember that toilet that had been used two days prior when Frank came home, they noticed that there's a false wall behind it, built to hide the plumbing, but it also left a small triangular shaped space. The officers looked into that space and they found a pile of dirty clothes. But that's not all. They also see, terrifyingly, a man crouching in the corner. I don't know about you, but we're not going to have to pause the podcast now so that I can go check behind every toilet in my house.
- [18:16]
Brett
Absolutely.
- [18:17]
Alice
Oh my gosh. So this man crouching in the corner actually doesn't put up a fight at all. He's found behind the toilet and he comes out on his own, without argument, not forced, and he's subsequently arrested. And this wasn't a man at all. It was a 16 year old boy named Daniel LaPlante and he had been intermittently living in the wall of the Bowens home for six months.
- [18:46]
Brett
I think now is the time for you to tell your story, Alice. Okay, you've told it before, but I've told it.
- [18:52]
Alice
I was listening.
- [18:52]
Brett
Some people don't listen to all the episodes. So.
- [18:57]
D
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- [19:49]
Alice
If you've been around for the past four and a half years, you've heard this story before, so I'll make it a shortened version. You can find the episode where I tell the full story. The reason I said that this story hits way, way, way too close to home is while this all sounds like a movie script, I've lived this and so I know it's not a movie script. So my first year of law school, those of you who heard us cover the horrifying story of a med student who was murdered there my first year that same semester, when everyone has curfews imposed by campus police because we can't find a murderer on the loose, and all of us are just kind of living in north eastern of the country where it's dark all the time, it's snowing all the time, there's a murder on the loose on campus. And my class is pretty small. There's only, you know, like a little over 100 people in my law school class. So you get to know everyone very well, especially the first semester. Everyone's hanging out at each other's homes and getting to know each other. There are five girls in my class, which is like 10% of my class, literally. They all live together in a house in East Rock, if you know New Haven. That's like the residential part of New Haven. Not apartment buildings, but old 100-year-old homes. This is where I live too, East Rock. And we went over there all the time for, you know, watch football or just baking cookies, having parties with our class. It was a good hangout place since so many of our classmates lived there. But I knew these girls well. They were my classes. And we'd all just met each other. We'd known each other for like a month at this point, so no one knew each other very well. But some of the girls who I got to know a little bit better than the other girls in the house started like gossiping a little bit about their roommates. They're like, I don't know who it is in our house, but every time I buy groceries, someone like, eats all of my groceries. They eat all my cereal, they drink all my milk, they eat my cheese. Kind of annoying because we're all on, you know, student loans and groceries are kind of expensive. And I heard this from Multiple of the girls, they're like, I don't know who keeps eating my bananas? Specifically bananas. Like, someone was pilfering all the bananas in that house. So one of the girls was, like, getting a lot of potassium. And this went on for about a month. Like, every time I went to a party at their house, someone would be talking about how annoying it was that one of the girls in the house was just not doing her share and eating everyone else's groceries and not contributing. Common roommate problem, right? Until one day we have class, and everyone has different hours of class, but because it's law school, you can come home in the middle of the day. One of the girls comes home at, like, 2:00. So after lunchtime. And yet again, she kind of sees, like, crumbs all over the kitchen. And someone's eaten lunch and just, like, left it there, which is annoying because we have a lot of rats and vermin problem in New Haven. And she hears something in the basement, but there's no rooms in the basement. Like, it's just an unfinished basement. No one's down there. No bedrooms are down there. And she hears something, and it's pretty loud. And so she kind of walks down there and she doesn't see anything because the lights don't work. Of course she comes back up. Whatever. She goes to class. Another day, another roommate comes home, and she hears something, too. She's like, who's down there? That's really weird. Like, none of us hang out down there. There's nothing down there. So she walks downstairs, looks around. Nothing there either. Very, very brave. Shall I say they are not like me. Fast forward like, another month. This is still in the first semester. They start having, like, a powwow as a. We need to have a house meeting. Whoever is, like, just leaving the kitchen filthy and eating everyone's food, you gotta stop. If we're gonna live together the whole year, like, let's just put it out in the open. And they all were like, wait, someone's eating your food? And all five of them realize that all of them had food that was being eaten, and it was none of them. And they. They think they can trust each other. They don't know, but they start seeing, like, trash just littered all over their house. And it was like a man was using it. It wasn't like, a woman stuff. And so they start investigating and they finally call the police. And what would you know? Someone had been living in their basement. A squatter, A man in his 20s. We call him Townies. He was not A student. He lived in town, and he'd been living in the basement for, like, years, because this house was rented out to students every year. So it turned over every single year. And there was no, like, continuity where you would figure out that someone was living down there. And he had been squatting for who knows how long and showered in their showers, used their bath products, ate all their food. I mean, went through their stuff, because they would talk about how their drawers, like, their underwear drawers, someone had sifted through them, which is kind of disconcerting. They just thought their roommates were looking for something. And this man just helped himself, and he slept there with five other girls, and none of them were murdered, by the freaking grace of God. So that happened my first semester alongside the murder. So I'm not cool with this story.
- [24:44]
Brett
Yeah, I mean, there's pretty much nothing more invasive than someone being in your house, digging through your stuff, eating your food. You're talking about losing any sense of security. You just want to, like, lock yourself in the closet with a gun all the time. And like you said, I mean, it's fortunate that nothing happened to those girls, and it's fortunate that nothing happened in this case. I mean, obviously, he had a hatchet at one point. And as we're gonna see it, certainly they are very lucky. I mean, this is a terrible story. We probably wouldn't be doing this story if this was as fascinating as this is. It's only gonna get worse. So the police, obviously, were very interested in, why is this guy doing this? Well, it would turn out. Remember, he's been there for six months. Well, it turns out that six months before that, Tina, the oldest daughter, had agreed to go on a date with Daniel LaPlante. Now, she did not like him. They did not hit it off. Tina has a good sense for a crazy person sitting across from her. Apparently, he gave her really bad vibes, rubbed her the wrong way, and he was very fixated on her mother's death. So they only went on one date. This was one date and done. But that was enough for Daniel at that point. He became absolutely obsessed. And this obsession led him to going to her home and living in the walls of her house for six months, watching her, watching her family, and doing all these incredibly bizarre things. And remember, back to that champagne. I think we know who the champagne was for now. It was for Tina. And it's just fortunate that they didn't go back. And it's fortunate that her dad saw him in the window, because I got to think if he'd have walked into that house not realizing what he was walking into. There's no telling what would have happened to him.
- [26:34]
Alice
I will say I was kind of raised. I always felt like if someone did the chivalrous thing and asked me on a date, I would say yes to one date. Because they went through all the effort. Even if I wasn't gonna, like, there was not gonna be hand holding or kissing, whatever. It's just like a nice thing. They did a nice thing. I will reciprocate. And then that's it. This makes me rethink everything about my childhood.
- [26:57]
Brett
Living in your walls. Who knows how many of those dates. Living in your walls. Probably even as we speak.
- [27:04]
Alice
Again, I need to go check all of my toilets right now. I don't say yes anymore. That I'm married. For any of you who are about to leave. A one star review.
- [27:14]
Brett
Daniel was charged with the obvious. Breaking and entering a dwelling, Four counts of kidnapping. Because, remember, he moved them from the one room to another. And that's all it takes for kidnapping. Kidnapping is very simple. You force someone through the use of force or intimidation to move from one place to another. Doesn't have to be very far. In this case, it was literally from, I guess, the foyer where the closet was to the bedroom. That's enough. He's charged with kidnapping, Four counts of armed assault, larceny, and malicious destruction of property. So he's got some pretty hefty charges against him. Now let's talk a little bit about daniel. Daniel was born May 15, 1970, in Townsend, Massachusetts. His family life was not a happy one. They were very poor. The home was dilapidated. There was junk everywhere. There were old cars littering the lawn. And Daniel would later claim that he was sexually and psychologically abused by several people in his life, including his father and his psychiatrist, who he had gone to to attempt to deal with some of these issues. That person took advantage of him and also abused him. School was no better for him. He attended St. Bernard's High School in fitchburg, Massachusetts. He was described there as a loner and not particularly friendly. By the age of 15, he had turned to criminal behavior and he began to break into various neighbors homes, Steal valuables and sell them just to get by. Now he is pretty young, and because of his young age, he is held in a juvenile detention center Leading up to his trial. But about 10 months after his arrest, the case was transferred from juvenile court to Lowell superior court. And I guess the intention was they're going to treat him more like he's an adult. But unfortunately, this change is going to lead to a decision that's going to have very bad consequences.
- [29:08]
Alice
Very, very bad consequences. Because on October 9, 1987, now that he's in Superior Corps, what do we typically talk about? Bail. Right. If you're gonna get bail, what's it gonna be set at? And if you can meet bail? And this judge decides, probably not in small part, that Daniel's relatively young at this point. He was very young when all these things happened. And while all of the charges are very serious, nothing, quote, unquote, terrible happened. Right. The kidnapping was relatively minor. No one got hurt. And so he decides to set Bailey for Daniel out at $10,000. Now, his mom gets a second mortgage on their home to cover the bail money. And as a result, because he's made bail, Daniel is released on October 9, 1987. Now, when you're out on bail, it means you are out pending your next hearing. So he's expected back in court a couple months later on December 11, 1987. I think you already know where this is going. Things are going to happen before December 11th. October 14th, 1987. Just about five days after he's released on bail, sometime between noon and 2:15pm Daniel breaks into the home of the Pindell family, located at 38 Elm Street, Pepperell, Massachusetts. While in their home, he steals two Ruger.22 caliber guns and their holsters, as well as a large sum of cash. This is getting serious. He first of all breaks into a home and now is stealing cash and guns. Before, he just had a hatchet. Now we have a gun. Three weeks later, Daniel's stepfather locates one of the stolen guns in Daniel's laundry basket. Now, when confronted about this, Daniel claims that he'd actually gotten this gun a year prior when he came upon it. He doesn't confess that he has just stolen this gun, and his parents just, I guess, believe him because they don't find a second gun, and they kind of leave it there.
- [31:18]
Brett
I feel like Daniel didn't have a whole lot of structure, family attention. Yeah.
- [31:23]
Alice
Like, if you found your child's gun in their dirty laundry basket, even if you told me you got it a year earlier, still stolen, still not your gun. Still. Why do you have a gun? And why are you hiding in the crazy stuff? You definitely can't have a gun. Like, there's lots of red flags.
- [31:41]
Brett
A lot of red flags going up. But unfortunately, as Al said, found one gun. They didn't know about the other one, and they didn't find the other one. So Daniel still has a gun. Fast forward to November 16, 1987. So we're now to points. Less than a month after he's been released on bail, he takes that gun and he breaks into the home of Andrew and Priscilla Gustafson. While he's there, he steals multiple items from the house, including a cordless telephone, two cable television boxes, a cable television remote, and some coins from a Liberty silver dollar collection. Now, this is pretty much a continuation of what he's done in the past. The living in the walls of the home was a little bit of an aberration. He has been someone who has broke into houses. He has been someone who has stolen from houses. One problem with burglary is a lot of times we don't take it as seriously as we should. It's seen as sort of a low level crime. Even though if you've ever been burglarized, you know how just invasive you know, that is. I mean, the fact someone breaking into your house, it's not as bad as someone living in your house, but it's pretty awful. But we don't really take it that seriously. A lot of times, though, burglars are the people who eventually elevate to worse crimes. And we're going to see that here.
- [33:00]
Alice
Yeah. And based on what he's stealing so far, it seems like pretty common burglary items. Right? Like, it seems like he's truly burglarizing these homes to steal things of value. Gun valuable, large sum of cash valuable at this point in the 1980s. If you watch Saved by the Bell, a cordless phone is a very coveted item. Cable boxes, things that he can basically sell and make some money off of. So he's taking things of value. This is important because we've covered other types of cases where something goes horribly wrong. And we note that, for example, the Oconee Lake murders, we note that while someone has clearly come into the home, there's nothing seemingly of value missing. And that's important because what's the purpose of them coming in? Was it to commit an act of violence or was it to steal? So far, what we see of him taking seems to point him in the direction of breaking in for the purposes of taking things of value so that he can, I don't know, continue to live his life of leisure without having to work.
- [34:01]
Brett
And you have to imagine as Daniel was walking around the Gustafson house, that he recognized that their family could not have been more different than his own. They were living a happy life in Townsend. Andrew and Priscilla were Happily married, they had two children together, Abigail who was 7, and William who was 5. And Priscilla was newly pregnant with their third child. Andrew worked in real estate and Priscilla was a preschool teacher at the Townsend Cooperative Preschool. The family was well liked and very friendly. Pillars of the community. Pretty much the perfect family. Everything you could want in life they had. Daniel, he leaves the home, he takes some of the stolen items and he ends up hiding them in his brother Steven's tool cabinet.
- [34:50]
Alice
So this brings us to late November. He's been out for almost two months. At this point, Daniel asks his brother Stephen LaPlante and his friend Michael Pulaski for some bullets. Now, he claims he just wanted to make a large bullet from all these smaller bullets to sell, which is the.
- [35:07]
Brett
Dumbest thing I've ever heard, by the way. It's not typically how it works, by the way.
- [35:12]
Alice
You don't usually make your own bullets. And like a bigger bullet isn't more valuable than smaller bullets. Bullets, you just look, he's out on bail for a pretty horrific crime of, you know, kidnapping by hatchet and continually, you know, living in someone's home, those these sorts of things. And he's been found with a stolen gun that he claims is not, you know, illicit or whatever. And then he asked for a bunch of bullets, but he's like, don't worry, I'm not gonna do anything. I'm just gonna melt them down and make one big bullet. So his friend Michael Poloski gives him a number of.22 caliber bullets from a carton that he owned, I guess not asking questions about it. On December 1, 1987, Daniel LaPlante breaks into the Gustafsson home for a second time. This time he doesn't just have that.22 caliber firearm that he stole previously. This time it's loaded with the bullets that Pulaski gave him. Priscilla and her five year old son William returned home that afternoon after she picked him up from the babysitter around 1pm and Daniel was already in the home. And he hears them enter the home. And while he debates jumping out a window, he ultimately decides not to do so and instead stay in the home. So while he's in the home, you gotta have a plan. If you're not gonna run, what are you gonna do? There's really one other thing. You're not gonna wait it out because you're. Their chance to escape has passed. So instead, Daniel confronts Priscilla and the five year old William. While brandishing the loaded.22 firearm. He orders the two of them into the bedroom. Does this sound familiar, by the way? This is what happened to the Bowens where he puts William in the closet and he tied Priscilla to the bed. He would later tell police that this was all he planned to do. He was just gonna put William in the closet, tie Priscilla to the bed and he was going to leave. I have my serious doubts that that was all he was going to do because he could have just forced them into the bedroom, tell them to count to a thousand and run out the door. That's not what he did. Instead he does something utterly, utterly horrific. So there's one of the most disconcerting things is of course having your home broken into. I have heard that this crime that we're about to talk about is even worse than death. And once he ties Priscilla to the bed, he rapes her. And he doesn't stop there. At 17 years old, Daniel finishes raping Priscilla and then shoots her in the head twice, killing her. And you know that Priscilla is pregnant with their third child at the time of her death. And if this wasn't enough, if he came for sex, if he came for murder, he didn't stop there. William's been in the closet. He doesn't just leave William there. He's a five year old boy, he saw nothing, whatever, let him go. He doesn't do that. Instead he takes William to the bathroom upstairs and he drowns him in the bathtub.
- [38:04]
Brett
But Daniel isn't finished. He's now leaving the home. And as he's doing so, Priscilla's seven year old daughter Abigail returns home from school. He coerces Abigail into the downstairs bathroom where he drowns her too. She fought back and she suffered blunt force trauma when this occurred. So then he returns home and he attends his niece's birthday party as if nothing ever happened.
- [38:36]
Alice
How could you go to your niece's birthday party when you've just killed someone who's so like your niece with your bare hands? And not just by. I mean drowning is horrific, but to include that blunt force trauma as well. I mean this is a triple murder. And then he goes to a child's birthday party.
- [38:54]
Brett
So at this point, Andrew Gustafsson, he returns home from work around 5:30pm and he immediately knows something is wrong because he doesn't hear what you hear when you have a wife and two young children running around. There's no sound, there's no giggling, there's none of that. The household is silent and no one responds when he calls out. Then he finds Priscilla's body. She was laying face down on their Bed with a pillowcase over her head and obvious gunshot wounds. He calls the police immediately. He does not look for his children because he knows what he's going to find. And he would later tell police that he could not bear to find them dead. Massachusetts State Police arrive on the scene and they do find the bodies of the Gustafson children. They collect several important pieces of information and evidence from the scene. The pillowcase that was covering Priscilla's head, body fluids on the bedspread, part of a condom on the floor, which goes to what Alice said earlier. This was always his intention. He went there intending to do this. This wasn't something that just happened. He was prepared. A knotted brown sock, several makeshift ligatures, and there was additional evidence outside, including a pillow with two spent cartridges inside. So most likely he had put the gun, I guess, in the pillow and the cartridges had been ejected into the pillow, and when he dropped the pillow, still have the cartridges. So the police have a lot of evidence to work with in finding out who committed this horrible crime.
- [40:25]
Alice
So we've been following Daniel for a couple months now, and things have escalated very quickly. So going into the next morning, around 1:00am, December 2, when the police chief is searching the perimeter of the Gustafson home, he comes across several footprints in the flower bed and around the house to an area where a Name, places sign was noticeably missing. They bring in tracking dogs and they use the scent from that pillow found at the scene to look for Daniel. These dogs immediately catch a scent and they take off running towards the woods, but they lose the scent at a creek, which often happens when you introduce water. So that afternoon in the same day, another tracking dog is brought in. And just like before, he takes off running into the woods. The dog leads law enforcement into a pile of clothing and other items on the ground. And the dog finds a blue and white flannel shirt wrapped around a pair of soaking wet work gloves and a name plate bearing the Gustafson name, just like what was missing from the home. This is really dark in a lot of ways, right? He has inflicted the worst kind of evil onto this family, annihilated an entire family and left the head of the household, the man with no wife and no children. And devastatingly, his unborn child is gone as well. And he takes their family plate. I mean, that is just. This is more than just a senseless act of violence. This is not just being caught in the act of burglarizing. We know that because he chose to stay. This is not just being obsessed with someone. This is very personal and very deeply psychological that he takes their nameplate but then tosses it as well, as opposed to keeping it. Now, the dog doesn't stop there. The dog followed the scent further, using the flannel shirt that it found. And this takes him three to four feet from Daniel laplant's home. The two homes were located only a half mile from each other and separated by a small stretch of woods. To imagine that your killer lives just half a mile away, but to live such a different life is chilling. State Police track down LaPlante to the Townsend Public Library, where he is being tutored, of all things. So he shows up for his tutoring lesson. A lot of things you can see happening here. Triple murder goes to a niece's birthday party, being hunted down at a tutoring session at the library. Now, he remains calm when he's confronted while the police speak to him. And he told them that he'd been home watching music videos on MTV all day on the day of the murders. So this is his alibi. He said the only time he left was when he went to try and get a chainsaw out of the shed to cut some wood, but the shed was locked, so he abandoned that plan. Later that evening, he went to his niece's birthday party with his mom. As the interview went on, though, LaPlant's calm composure begins to crumble. He becomes jumpy and sweaty, but he didn't stray from his recollection of staying inside all day watching music videos. Police left after gathering LaPlante's statement, but stopped by his house later that day to speak with him again. Daniel's mother would not let them speak to him without an attorney present.
- [43:48]
Brett
And I just want to say this is sort of an interesting story about probable cause, too, because obviously the police are pretty convinced that Daniel is involved in this crime. Right? I mean, the dog led them right to him, but they don't arrest him. They don't. Yeah, they probably don't have enough to get a search warrant, right? I mean, there are some people who think you can get a search warrant just because you decide you want one. They have some pretty strong evidence, but they don't have anything yet that's going to be able to get them to a point where they could search his home, for instance. And they got a lot of evidence, and they're hoping they can match it to something, but they really need something else. And so they want to keep talking to Daniel because they're hoping he will say something or he will do something that will Give them that probable cause they need. So his mom's like, look, I know my rights. I know my son's rights. He's a minor. So really, you know, even talking to him at the library was probably a little bit of a. But they get down there, and mom's like, no, without a attorney, you're not gonna talk to him again. Well, they come back a third time. They're hoping third time's a charm, right? So they stopped by the residence one more time to try and get him to speak with them. And when they knock on the door, they see Daniel jump off the back deck and run into the woods. So there you go. Boom.
- [45:02]
Alice
Consciousness of guilt.
- [45:04]
Brett
Yes, consciousness of guilt. Now you got that extra line you need to put in the search for it. And that's what they do. They see this incredibly suspicious behavior. They immediately go back to the magistrate. They put everything they have. They add the fact that he ran, and they get a search Warrant for the LaPlante family home. And the evidence they find inside the home is damning. There are bullet casings that match the stolen gun which was used to kill Priscilla. And there are bullets. They find the bullets, which are the same type of bullets used to kill Priscilla with some more bullet casings as well that they're going to be able to match to the gun and to the murder. They also find a cordless phone and a cable box which match the one stolen from the Gustafsson home. In November this point, the warrant is issued for the arrest of Daniel laplant for three counts of first degree murder. And a manhunt was underway.
- [46:00]
Alice
Next day, December 3rd, one of the detectives searching for Daniel pulled into the driveway of a home in Pepperell to turn around. When the resident of that home, Mrs. McGovern, flags him down, she asked that he accompany her inside because she was just getting home, and she saw everything that had been going on with the manhunt. So she was understandably nervous. The detective agrees to go in with her. And when he got inside the home, he heard a large bang upstairs. Way to go, Mrs. McGovern, by the way. Way to go with your gut feeling that something is off. And she.
- [46:37]
Brett
To do this, this would have been easy for him to roll his eyes and be like, whatever, lady. Everybody's nervous. But he didn't do that. He went in with her.
- [46:43]
Alice
And this was truly like a guardian angel was looking out for Mrs. McGovern, because, remember, this police officer was only there to turn around. This was not a whatsoever for him. So after hearing this large Bang. The detective entered the upstairs and he saw a shotgun leaning against the wall. And this time he also sees someone escaping from the window. The person escaping was Daniel, but he had gotten away and managed to steal yet another gun. This is not the last that the Pepperell residents will be terrorized because another Pepperell resident, Jonathan Lang, called the police to inform them that Daniel tried to get him to open the door so Daniel could enter the residence. But he smartly refused to do so. Shortly following this, this manhunt is getting very hot. At this point, Pamela Michaela arrived home to find Daniel LaPlante inside with a gun. Like, Daniel is not taking a chill pill and hiding out. He is like going from home to home to home. I truly believe that this would have just been a massive killing spree if he's not stopped. This is the trajectory of what's happening so far. So when Pamela gets home, sees Daniel with a gun. Daniel told her that he needed her to drive him to Fitchburg because he only had. This is like, we're not gonna laugh because this is horrible. He only has a learner's permit. Really? He commits like these massive murders and he's like, I can't drive, I can't break the law. I only have a learner's permit. What?
- [48:12]
Brett
I. I just, you know, this is the thing, we talk about this sometimes, these criminals, the weirdest stuff. Like this is the kind of thing that if this weren't so cut and dry, like some innocence person would be like, obviously Daniel didn't do it. He wouldn't even drive without a learner's permit. What kind of murderer doesn't is concerned about a learner's permit. I mean, that's, this is clear evidence that he is not someone who would do something like this. No, people, this is exactly the kind of, of just bizarre behavior that you see all the time. And it just blows your mind.
- [48:45]
Alice
The only thing I can think of, because this is so ridiculous. And you're right, you do see this sometimes where they're like, well, gotta stop at the red light. I'm like, really? You already murdered all these people. A manhunt's after you. You're gonna stop at the red light. Like that's where you draw the line for breaking the law. I bet what actually happened, because remember, Daniel is still a 17 year old boy who probably has some pride. I bet you he doesn't even have a learner's permit. I bet you he doesn't know how to drive. That's the problem. So he can't get himself anywhere, or he knows he's gonna get behind a wheel and he's gonn and all over the place because, honestly, the adults in his life kind of stink. I bet no one's taught him how to drive, so I. I will give him that much. I think he definitely told Pamela, I have a learner's permit. But I think the problem is he can't get away without someone to help him. And so what is Pamela to do? There's this crazed person with a gun and says, you need to drive me somewhere. She agrees to drive him, but when she saw her uncle while she was driving, she jumps out of the car. Smart. You should do this. If you are held hostage in a car situation, you have the opportunity to jump out of the car. Do it because you don't want to be taken to a remote location and have terrible things happen to you. Now, thank goodness her uncle was there. So her uncle brings Pamela home and contacts the police. Daniel continued on in Pamela's orange van until he was eventually found and arrested in a lumberyard in Ayer. So Daniel was found hiding in a dumpster, and he was taken into custody and booked. Can I just say, after, like, what a string? Clearly, there was no plan, right? These triple murders, this manhunt, and ultimately there's no standoff. He's just hiding in a dumpster and he's taken into custody and booked into jail. He had a gun in his underwear and a bullet in his sneaker. I think he was ready for a standoff if forced into one. But what a horrific couple of days before they stopped him.
- [50:37]
Brett
So this point, Daniel's gonna plead not guilty to all counts of first degree murder. And he was ordered to undergo 20 days of psychiatric evaluation at Bridgewater State Hospital, which I would expect. I mean, at this point, he's either he's either an absolute monster or he's out of his mind. I think it's basically what people are thinking, like, we need to figure that out is even competent to stand trial is going to be a question that's going to happen in this case. So police obtained a second search warrant for his home. Later on, his brother Stephen LaPlante and friend Michael Pawlowski, they would find the murder weapon in the glove compartment of an abandoned vehicle on Daniel's property. Remember, there's all those cars, and this is pretty clearly what the second search warrant was for. They were looking for that murder weapon. They couldn't quite find the murder weapon. Well, they eventually do find it. He has hidden it in the glove compartment. I just want to say this goes to. We talk about the insanity defense. Like, he clearly he thought this through. He planned for the murder, and he's attempting to cover it up by hiding the gun. I think that would be something that was important. He is eventually indicted on 28 counts. Four charges related to the murder, a handful related to the Bowen family. Remember? I mean, as horrible as what happened to them was, that was like a blessing compared to the stuff he's going to do later. And then of course, all these other things he's done, like kidnapping this other lady, all the break ins, everything. And a judge ruled he would have to be tried for the murders first. That's not that unusual, because if you try somebody for triple homicide, you find him guilty of that, you're probably just gonna go ahead and find him guilty of, like, breaking and entering. Probably not even gonna really think about that if you're the jury. So basically, we're gonna separate those out. He's gonna be tried for the murders, and then if the state decides to go ahead and try him for those, he'll be tried for the other charges as well.
- [52:23]
Alice
Well, okay. So they go to trial pretty quickly. I mean, you've heard the evidence. It's pretty strong here. Daniel's trial begins in October of 1988. And at this point, he's 18 years old and he's being tried as an adult. And frankly, his crimes are so serious that I could see a judge would say he'd be tried as an adult even if he were 17. The prosecution laid out the evidence to the jury. Hair, blood, and saliva samples were all obtained from Daniel. And Daniel was determined to be a tight type a secretor which matched the evidence on the scene. Fibers from the flannel shirt that the dogs found in the woods were also found to match fibers on the shirt that Daniel was wearing on the day of the murders, as well as in various places at the scene of the murders. In other words, this is very, very strong evidence tying him to the murders. In fact, a strand of hair on one of Daniel's socks was shown to belong to Abigail Gustafson. Remember, unfortunately, she sounds like she fought back and he had to use blunt force. This is so sad that it clearly was a pretty violent struggle because her hand ends up on one of his socks. Finally, the shoe print outside the home matched the shoes Daniel was wearing at the time of his arrest. Not to mention the tracking dogs led investigators right to Daniel's doorstep. I mean, this is as strong as it gets. So some of you may be wondering, why did he go to trial? Well, Daniel's defense team implied that Daniel was insane. Remember, insanity is a defense that you have to present. It doesn't keep you from going to trial. But they only imply it because they don't call any witnesses of their own or present their own case. Daniel also did not testify in his own defense. So his team simply suggested in cross examination of the prosecution's witnesses that there were other suspects even suggesting that Daniel's brother could have done it. But Daniel was the easiest to pin that crime on.
- [54:20]
Brett
And there's a situation where there's no downside to going to trial unless he wants to plead guilty to sort of alleviate his own mind, the burden of what he's done. Right. We talked about this some of the Richard Allen case. If it's not a death penalty case, and if you plead guilty, it's life without parole, you might as well roll the dice, right? It seems like that's basically what happened here. He rolled the dice, but his defense knew this is basically a slow guilty plea. There's no defense we can put on. So let's just try and poke holes and maybe we'll get lucky with the jury. But on October 26, 1988, the jury found Daniel guilty on all counts. Massachusetts does not have the death penalty, and so he was sentenced to three consecutive life sentences without parole. And not surprisingly, he was never tried for the charges related to tormenting the Bowen family or any additional charges, because once again, he has been convicted. He's going to be in prison for the rest of his life. The Commonwealth decides not worth pursuing those, and they let him go. That's fairly common. In 1993, his appeal was denied, and that should have been the end of it. But then the Supreme Court, in its infinite wisdom, bans life without parole sentences for juveniles. And this made some convicted killers eligible for parole after only 15 years. And I say banned life without parole sentences, not actually. They banned automatic life without parole sentences. So basically, you had to conduct some sort of. There has to be some showing that this is a particularly egregious crime that's worthy of a life without parole for a juvenile. Juveniles can get life without parole, but it's not automatic in the way it would be for an adult.
- [56:02]
Alice
So that's what happens for LaPlante. Basically, his sentence gets a second second look. And on March 23, 2017, Middlesex Superior Court Judge Helene Kazanjian formally re sentenced LaPlant to the maximum possible punishment, three consecutive life sentences, with the opportunity for parole after 45 years from the date of his conviction. So what this just means is they had to relook at the sentence. It wasn't automatic, and it's still just as horrific as the day day he was convicted. So he gets the same sentence, but he is able to get parole after 45 years. Now, this was partially based on a forensic psychiatrist evaluation of Le Plant, which found that he was not remorseful for his crimes. I say not remorseful in just the horrificness of all of this. Like, there was so little regard for life that he would have, I think, kept on killing if given the opportunity. And the only reason he hasn't killed again is that the manhunt ensued immediately after, and he was basically apprehended just days after the murders happened in March of 2019. LaPlante's attorneys first appealed Daniel's case for early parole eligibility in March, citing previous court rulings that say juveniles convicted of murder should be given a meaningful opportunity to re engage with society. In this case, I think Daniel's re engagement with society would probably be in the form of committing more murders. But his attorneys cited the change in state law that allows juveniles convicted of murder with extreme cruelty and atrocity to ask for parole after they've been behind bars for a minimum of 30 years. Again, the whole not remorseful thing, we're not talking about someone who's like 12. He was really on the cusp of 18. He was already out on bond at the time. He was stealing guns. His crime is truly not one that really draws on the sympathy strings of someone's heart.
- [57:56]
Brett
And look, I believe in parole, but can we start prioritizing victims and protecting society and not like, why do you have a law specifically cites crimes of extreme cruelty and atrocity as ones you're going to allow on a parole? Extreme cruelty and atrocity should be the ones that don't get parole. Those should be the people who die in prison. That's what should happen to Daniel. He should die in prison. Prison. But, you know, whatever. They're citing this. This law, fortunately, and I think this speaks to just how horrible Daniel's crimes were that the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, which is not exactly known to be tough on crime.
- [58:40]
Alice
Pretty pro criminal defendant.
- [58:42]
Brett
Pretty, pretty pro. However you want to put that, they are it. Well, they denied LaPlante's request for early eligibility for parole. Justice David Lowey wrote the court decision, and he provided the following rationale. The defendant sentence is proportional, both of the crimes he committed and to his particular characteristics as an offender. Yes, it is. Ultimately, the resentencing judge concluded that although the defendant has shown signs of improved behavior in recent years, his prognosis for rehabilitation in the future is guarded. You can say that again. Again. Daniel is currently being held at the Massachusetts Correctional Institute in Norfolk. He will be eligible for parole in 2033. So in eight years, those of you living in Massachusetts, prepare yourselves for his possibility of parole. Though we can hope he'll never get parole. He will be 62 years old at that time.
- [59:36]
Alice
So there's really no mystery about this case. It was, I think, open and shut from the beginning. But I think it is a fascinating view into a very short amount of time in which the crimes escalated so quickly. And you can clearly see where Daniel's trajectory was going. It was only going to become more and more violent and more and more horrific. The justice system worked swiftly in this case, and I think by doing so, both the police finding him quickly and then him being convicted, and the judges who were asked to revisit his sentences and his petitions for. For parole did the right things, which is to look at the specific case and not just treat him as a, quote, unquote, juvenile. Like, you know, juvenile is just thrown around as if that absolves all sins. There are some who truly have committed such atrocities that they need to be removed from society so as to prevent additional murders. I think each of these people, each of these judges, prosecutors, who touched this case case knew what they had on their hands, and they knew if they were the one to let Daniel out like that first judge was who let him out on $10,000 bail, blood would be on their hands because he had proven he would do that. I don't think everyone is beyond rehabilitation, but I think in this case, you have to look at the individual. And this individual truly had a deep disregard for life and the ability to execute swiftly with absolutely no hesitation, and would do so again had he been. Had he not been stopped. So I will say the one good thing out of this is more people did not die because of the judicial system working the way it should.
- [61:13]
Brett
And we talked about before, a lot of times, criminal behavior, people age out of it. So your criminal active years are not unlike your working years. You know, your 20s to your late 50s, is really when you see people commit most crimes. And so for a lot of things, you can get people past that, you feel like they probably are not a danger to society. I think whatever is in him and whatever it was that drove him to do this, whether it's just a Real darkness in his heart or some sort of mental illness. Whatever it is, it's still there and it will always be there. So I think he will always be a threat then. I don't care how old he is. You know, you can fire a gun at any age and that's how he has killed before and I think he would kill again. This story is a terrible one if you just can't get enough of it. True Crime all the Time did some coverage of this Dark Down East. There's a lot of articles about it. There have been several, you know, one hour shows that do different crimes every week. Have done some pretty good shows on this as well. So there's stuff out there, but it is a terrible crime. And it's wild because it starts off with just this utterly bizarre incident where he's living in the walls of somebody's home and you just wish that someone had recognized just how deviant that kind of behavior was. And this was not a person who needed to be out on bail if he'd done something like that. Because my first thought, if I had been that family, I mean, I would have gotten out of the state because my first thought would have been, he's coming back for us. He didn't do that. But he did target another family and he wiped them out.
- [62:47]
Alice
And this is hard. We don't know a lot about his family. But the person or the people who could have noticed this deviant behavior, other than the Bowens, who he was found living in their home, home would be his family. He's 16 years old, he's a juvenile. Where's your kid for six months that you don't notice he's not living with you or not where he's supposed to be. I think obviously this is indicative of the kind of home he was living in. But you know, we, we talk about all the time, how do you turn crime around? How do you make a meaningful difference on recidivism rates? How do you meaningfully stop these horrific crimes? How do you weed out or, or stop the breeding of monsters in our society? Ultimately, I think there are going to be people who we don't understand. They may have the perfect family and they turn out just fine. But I think, sorry guys, if, if you came here for parenting advice, you're not going to like it. Gentle parenting ain't going to do it. Like, especially kids like Daniel who showed deviant behavior pretty early on. You needed some structure. Maybe some of that structure could have come in the form of, of knowing where your son lived. For six months or something like that, or knowing that it was beyond your control. But my first thought is, man, if the police came looking for my child, I understand their rights. As a lawyer, I understand that you're supposed to speak with a lawyer. But if I knew I had, like, a killer on my hands and I could prevent more lives from being lost, I'd be like, take them. Talk to them now. Like, let's. Let's just stop the horror. But a lot of sadness here for all the people affected for, oh, my goodness, a family who was literally annihilated for no reason. We don't really know the reason. It wasn't random. He broke in there twice. He lived half a mile from them. You know, your imagination can run wild. Why he targeted that specific family may have been because they were a happy family. I think this is a very, very helpful view into the minds of certain criminals and why these long sentences sometimes just have to exist.
- [64:48]
Brett
No, I think you're. I think you're absolutely right about that. And look, we would love to hear your thoughts on this case. Shoot us an email. Prosecutors, podmail.comsecutors pod for our social media. If you have had someone living in the walls of your house, let us hear the story. It'll freak Alice out. All the better. You see, Alice, there's that door behind you. Who knows what's behind.
- [65:10]
Alice
No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not October. You don't get to do that outside of October.
- [65:17]
Brett
Thanks. I don't. I'm not entirely sure I should start keeping track of who recommends cases for us, but whoever recommended that case. I mean, wow, that one is a dark one. Alice, do you have a second or. You need to go. I don't want to keep you if you need to go.
- [65:33]
Alice
Yeah, sure. Let's answer our question.
- [65:35]
Brett
Well, I'm gonna do something slightly different today. So you guys probably recall the William A. List episode we did at the end of last year. We got, like, a really incredible response that episode. And one thing that we got was a lot of people who sent their own stories into us, and we're fine with us sharing them with you because they wanted more people who have been victimized, who've been victims, to know that they're not alone and that it is possible to get justice. So we have several of these. But I was going to read one of those emails we received to you guys, and obviously, I won't name the person, but this person says, I saw your comment on the post about the above episode. The A List episode and I wanted to reach out because I have a story I want to share. I'm in the uk, so parts of it will be different to how things work in the us but having spent the last eight months going through a police investigation into events that happened over 25 years ago, I have things I'd like to show. It's a really common story and that it involves a teacher and the rest I expect you can guess. The file has just been given to the Crown Prosecutor to decide if charges can be brought against him. In the period leading up to me deciding to make a report to the police, I searched for stories of people who had done the same and only found one that resulted in a successful prosecution. The journey is an incredibly lonely one at times and I believe the more stories that are out there the better. Because even if someone doesn't want to make a report, hearing other experiences is so incredibly validating. Just knowing that similar things have happened to other people is powerful and can be helpful in starting to see the level of manipulation, planning and skill that underpin the crimes themselves. Wishing you both a very Merry Christmas and a joyful and peaceful New Year. So want to thank that person for sharing that, want to share it with you because I think what she says is absolutely true. You are not alone. There are other people who've gone through it before and it is possible to come out the other side and even to find justice.
- [67:39]
Alice
Yeah. Thank you to that person for writing and so many of you for writing your stories and also those of you who work in the field of child exploitation for giving us your perspective from where you work. Those of you. I know a lot of people probably skipped the William A List episode because they didn't want to hear such a horrific story. I will say for what a horrific subject. It is an incredibly bright light because you are hearing really the story from the perspective of a former victim turned someone who got justice decades later. And you can hear more about this story also on Jason Blair's podcast. He just had an episode come out about the A List case as well with an interview. I think you'd really enjoy it. Again, very dark subject, but I think these are important stories to tell because true crime isn't just for, you know, entertainment consumption. It is also to give voice to victims. And many people, sometimes they just need to hear that it's been done before and that it's possible. And I think that's what the A List case can really offer you people here.
- [68:44]
Brett
And as people share their stories, we'll be sure to share them with you and just know that you're not alone. There are people out there who want to help. We want to help. And you can get through this. Okay, guys. Well, this has been a heavy episode, but, you know, that's what y'all come for, I guess. Weirdos. We'll be back next week with a new case. Maybe one maybe, you know, maybe we'll do, like, maybe not a child murder. Maybe we'll do a mystery next week, one that doesn't exactly. Doesn't involve child murder. So those of you, you know, next week won't be the West Memphis Three. I'm just gonna tell you that. Okay, well, we'll be back next week with something. Who knows what. But until then, again, I'm Brett.
- [69:28]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [69:29]
Brett
And we are the prosecutors. Well, this case is going to take us all the way back to June 1986. So Frank Bowen and his daughters, Tina and Karen, they began to notice some strange happenings at their home in Pepperell, Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Let me try that again. Some strange happenings at their home.
- [70:14]
Alice
Let me finish laughing first.
- [70:16]
Brett
In Pepperoni, Massachusetts. It's like my words just didn't want to come out. It was like, the words.
- [70:22]
Alice
It was so good, though. Massachusetts. I thought that was, like, the dialect that Bostonians do. And you were, like, trying to be all Bostonian.
- [71:25]
Brett
There you go. I was trying to. I was trying to get into that. You know, I'm trying to just put on my Boston, but that's probably not. It's always nice to go back to Massachusetts. I am very happy. Happy. Somebody asked if I was using Peachy because we're going to Georgia. You're the one who's. The words connect.
- [71:40]
Alice
I'm sorry, I'm the pun. Punific one.
- [71:44]
Brett
My words are actually about you. They're not about the case.