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- [00:00]
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- [01:06]
Brett
Got me upset because this is someone's.
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Alice
Kid and someone knows she's gone.
- [01:11]
Brett
That takes a different approach.
- [01:12]
Alice
It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town.
- [01:17]
Brett
Focusing on the communities affected by life shattering crime. It made news throughout the entire region that these two people had been shot while they slept in such a safe community. To give a new perspective on the devastation crimes can cause.
- [01:33]
Alice
It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town.
- [01:38]
Brett
Featuring cases from quiet towns to bustling cities and interviewing the people closest to the case. My first thought was that it's an.
- [01:46]
Alice
Unusual location for us to have a homicide.
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Brett
Listen to the true crime podcast City Confidential and step beyond the yellow tape to learn just how far a crime can reach.
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Alice
There are certain cases in the history of Boston that I think sort of define the city. I think this is one of them.
- [02:02]
Brett
New episodes of the City Confidential podcast are available every Thursday. Available wherever you get your podcasts.
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Alice
I'm Brett. And I'm Alice and we are the Prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we conclude our look at the Karen Silkwood case. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my irradiated co host, Alice.
- [03:20]
Brett
Hi Brett. Just the type of energy we need after long days. But you know what if there's a case that really gets me fired up. It's this case. Because I don't think we've ever done a case like this where we are literally following the breadcrumbs to try and figure out what happened to Karen Silkwood.
- [03:39]
Alice
I gotta say, maybe you guys are all hating these cases, but I feel like this case and Aconcagua are some of the best we've done. I've really enjoyed them and I've really enjoyed this one. And you're right, like, I love this kind of story where you have this mystery and a viable conspiracy. And I just love it. I love doing this kind of stuff. So.
- [03:58]
Brett
Indeed. Indeed. I've been thinking about this ever since our first episode. Because I kind of hope, Lexi, if I die under mysterious circumstances, I hope I'm able to leave behind a trail of crumbs. Because, Brett, you're going to have to hold the bag. You're going to have to solve the mystery of my death.
- [04:13]
Alice
Yeah. If I die under mysterious circumstances, I want a world class famous actor to play me. Just like Karen Silkwood. If you want to watch the movie, it's called Silkwood. Yeah. I mean, the movie has Cher in it. Like the roommate got played by Cher. I mean, that's.
- [04:29]
Brett
She was just the roommate. She wasn't even Karen.
- [04:32]
Alice
I know, that's pretty awesome. So it is pretty awesome, you know, and it's funny. And we've talked about this a little bit in the last episode. This case and this story was so famous in the 70s and 80s. And it just goes to show how sort of the zeitgeist moves on. Right. Like, I bet in 1982, if you'd have said the name Karen Silkwood, everybody would have known he were talking about. But now I'm sure most of you listening to this, maybe not most of you, but a good number of you have never heard of this case. I had not heard of this case until we started covering it. And I consider myself pretty well versed in the world of conspiracy. So this has been exciting for me. Hopefully this is everybody out there listening is not like, what are you talking about? Everybody knows this story, you losers. But it's. It's a good one. And I hope you guys are enjoying it as much as we are.
- [05:20]
Brett
Yeah. And if you remember the last time we were looking at a series of just unexplainable contaminations by Karen Silkwood as she was in the midst of this fact gathering, document gathering expedition to basically show all the lax standards and kind of bad practices of her employer, Ker McGee. And last time, we kind of had a cliffhanger. Remember, Karen was the one who kept on getting contaminated. But when we left off last time. Two other people joined her in the contamination realm. Her roommate, Sherry, and her boyfriend. And so this is getting bigger than just Karen. If we're talking conspiracies. Like more and more people are getting harmed here, right? So let's go back to November 11, 1974. That point we now know that Karen, Sherry, Ellis, her roommate and her boyfriend are all contaminated. And so they are sent to Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory in New Mexico for further testing. And a series of tests were conducted on the trio. Ellis and Stephen's results showed that they had a small but insignificant amount of plutonium in their bodies. But Silkwood had roughly six to seven nanocuries of plutonium 239 in her lungs. Which was about half of the maximum permissible lung burden for workers. In other words, she had much, much more in her body. Than her boyfriend or roommate. It's alleged that while Karen and Ellis were at the facility. Kerr McGhee continued to search their apartment. Looking for the documents Karen had collected. Proving that they were violating numerous health and safety laws.
- [07:00]
Alice
And look, I think it's funny how this case. There's the legend of this case, and there's the reality. I think it's probably true that Kerr McGee was searching her apartment. But I think they were searching her apartment still trying to figure out how this happened. It is likely, almost certain. And in fact, even people who think there's something conspiratorial about her death. Believe that Kerr McGee didn't really know about the documents. Because if they had had reason to suspect that. They could have fired her pretty easily. And that would have been the natural thing to do. So it's probably unlikely that Kerr McGee was aware of this at the time. They're probably in her apartment looking for the source of the radiation. But you can see how, as this story goes. And given her mysterious death. People look back on things that happened. And they see it as part of the conspiracy. Now, maybe it is. If you think there's a conspiracy here. Then maybe they were doing that. But you can also see how that part of the story could develop naturally. From everything that's happening, Right?
- [07:59]
Brett
So the next day, November 12, 1974. Karen calls the Okaw officials in D.C. after she returns home. One thing I want to note about. When you're assessing whether it is the conspiracy theory. Because, look, if the facts point towards the conspiracy. I'm all there for It. So one thing to note here. Karen is being sent off to Los Alamos for testing. But she's alive, she's well. She's not expected to be at Los Alamos for a long period of time. So Ker McGee knows she's coming home and coming home soon. If I were Karen, the first thing I would look for would certainly be the documents, right? Like, that's my prized possession. If I have been away from my home, the first thing I'm going to do is make sure my documents are there. And if they're gone, then there's going to be hell to pay. I'm going to raise the alarm. Look, this goes even deeper. They sent me away, and now they're. They're looking for documents. So I note that because there's no expectations, Karen's going to be gone for, say, an extended period of time. When she comes home the next day, Karen calls the okaw officials in D.C. and she informs them that Kerr McGee did not get the documents she had gathered. So if they had been looking, they didn't find them or they didn't take them. And she was ready to turn these documents over to the New York Times. Oka informs Karen that New York Times reporter David Burnham would meet Karen at the Holiday Inn that was northwest at 8pm in Oklahoma City on November 13, the next day. So it's all set in motion. She comes back from testing. She has the documents. She says they never got them. I'm ready to turn these over. This is all moving quickly. The next day is when everything's going to be blown wide open for Kerr McGee. Right.
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Alice
And this is a really important point in the timeline. And it also points to a contradiction in the timeline. Last episode, we told you that there is a report that on November 1, she had had this conversation with Oka and said, hey, I got the documents. I'm ready to talk to the New York times. That was 11 days before this. That report is a solo report from one source. Most of the reports that I've read, including in the FBI file, which we'll link to and you should read if you get the opportunity. It was released pursuant to a public records request, a FOIA request. It has a lot of information in it that, frankly, I think most people don't ever read. When you hear people discuss this case, and I'm really talking about the FBI file, so I would advise you to check it out. Most of the information is that this is when the call happens. November 12th. This is when she says, I've got the documents, I'm ready to turn them over. It doesn't really make sense that if she had all the documents. That we would have waited 11 days over a week. Given how serious this is, given the danger she considers herself to be under. It doesn't really make sense that she would have had them all back in November 1st. So I think that one source is probably inaccurate. So I think this is really when the event happens. When she says to the union, I have the documents. I'm ready to turn them over. I'm ready to go public. And this is the day before everything is going to happen. So you can see how this conspiracy can now really be in motion. She has made an outsider aware of what she has. And then she's ready to go forward. And then we're going to go to November 13th. So on November 13th, Karen returns to work. Now she is reassigned to a different portion of the plant. With different duties. So as to no longer do radiation work. She's been contaminated multiple times. She's gone off to Los Alamos. She has a pretty heavy plutonium contamination. So they're trying to keep her away from that. And she participates in some union negotiations. There's a union negotiation setting that day. She meets with the AEC inspectors concerning her own contamination. Because the fact that she is contaminated, whatever you think Kermage is doing, they can't cover this up. The fact that she's contaminated means there's going to be an inspection. There's going to be an investigation. The Atomic Energy Commission is now there at Kermagee. Looking in to what happened. So at 5:30, and this is after work, Karen meets with OKA members. The hub Cafe in Crescent City, Oklahoma. And she's debriefing them on earlier negotiating sessions. Remember, the situation with the union is precarious. They're also negotiating a new contract. The union has just survived a no confidence vote. It's a very difficult situation for the union. While she's there, she drinks iced tea. And she gives a brief presentation. Several people at the meeting recalled that Karen had a manila folder that had documents in it. Some describe them as Kerr McGee documents. Others describe them as notes. She has taken notes in a notebook, that sort of thing. The speculation is that whatever was in that folder. Is what she was intending to bring to Burnham. Who was the New York Times reporter, later that evening. Now, whatever the case, she was very emotional. Some attendees said she was crying. Some of them said that she seemed like she was in no condition to drive. She told one person who was there that she had gotten enough contamination to kill her. And in fact, she said, someone is trying to kill me. That's what she said to people who were at this meeting.
- [13:18]
Brett
So at 7:10, Karen leaves the Hub Cafe in her 1973 white Honda Civic with those documents in hand. And she gets on Route 74 and heads towards Oklahoma City, which is roughly 30 miles away. Sometime about 7:20 to 7:30. So just about 10 to 20 minutes after she leaves the cafe, Karen's only about seven miles from Crescent when her car went from the right lane of the highway across to the left off the road and onto the shoulder. When she does this, she hits a ditch and smashes head on into a concrete wall of a culvert. This accident, as you can imagine, is fatal. It crumples the front end of her car. If you see a picture of her car, it's hard to look at because of just how devastating it is to her car. There's really no way, I think anyone could have survived it. And the car was found laying on its left side. So driver side. At 8:00pm, Oklahoma State Highway Patrol are notified of this crash, which is about half an hour afterwards. So, you know, you would probably have to depend on someone else to call that in. But it's not immediate that the highway patrol are notified, and it takes them about another 15 minutes before highway patrol arrives on scene. So by this point, it's probably about 45 minutes or so after the crash. And when they arrived, they noted that Karen's legs were broken, there was dried blood on her face, and she appeared to be dead already when they got there. Despite there being marks on her bumper indicating that she may have been hit from behind and forced off the road, they determined that this was likely a single car crash resulting from Karen falling asleep at the wheel. An ambulance arrived around 8:30pm so 15 minutes after highway patrol gets there, and the ambulance transports Karen to Logan County Hospital where it's confirmed and pronounced that she is in fact dead. Meanwhile, Karen's boyfriend Drew and the New York Times reporter David Burnham were waiting for her at the Holiday Inn in Oklahoma City. Based on when she left, they expected her to arrive by 8:00pm and they kept waiting and waiting, and by 9:00 they knew something was wrong when Karen didn't show up. So they started calling around and one of the union leaders informed them that Karen had gotten into an accident and she had died. What a terrible way to find out that your girlfriend has died, by the way. Like that. Really, by them just trying to figure out what's happening. So when Burnham and Karen's boyfriend Drew hears this, they get into Burnham's car and they drive to the site of the crash. But when they get there, it was peculiar because the accident scene had already been cleaned up and all that was left. The only sign that Karen was even there was one of her paychecks laying in the mud. Karen's car had already been towed away, and that folder of documents that she had in hand ready to turn over to the New York Times. Well, it's never been recovered.
- [16:30]
Alice
And obviously, I think you can already see the conspiracy starts to form, Right? So she had these documents with her. She gets into an accident, and now the documents are gone. There are scratches on the back of her bumper. So the theory is someone followed her, they hit her in the back of the bumper, they forced her to crash. She crashed and died. They took the opportunity to remove the documents. They then left, and you have a one car accident and a tragic fatality. That is the story that a lot of people have believed and that has driven this whole case since her death. So November 14, there's an autopsy performed at University Hospital in Oklahoma City, and blood tests are done, and they reveal some interesting things. So she had 0.35 milligrams of methylqualone, which is quaaludes, per 100 milliliters of blood at the time of her death, and another 50 milligrams of undissolved methylqualone in her stomach. So the amount in her blood alone was twice what was necessary to induce some pretty severe drowsiness. It's about 1.5 times the therapeutic dose, which also. I mean, the whole point of this is to relax you and make you go to sleep, right? So she's got more than enough to do that. She's got twice as much as you would need to make you fall asleep. And that doesn't include the am in her stomach. 0.5 grams is considered a toxic amount of Quaaludes. So the fact that she's got so much in her. Her stomach and in her blood, this is a lot, right? I mean, she's pretty close to having a toxic dose. And in fact, if what was in her stomach had entered her blood, maybe she does have a toxic dose. Now, she had been on it a while, gonna build up some tolerance, so obviously it's gonna affect you a little differently. But this is a lot. This is a lot of Quaaludes in her body. She also had a blood alcohol level of around 0.02. This is not a ton of alcohol. And in fact, it's low enough. It could be an error in testing, but we know that when she was at this event, there was no alcohol. She was drinking iced tea. No one at the union meeting had alcohol. There was no alcohol present and there was no alcohol nearby. There's nowhere to get alcohol. So I don't know what's going on here. Like I said, possible that this is just a mistake. And while if she did have a little bit of alcohol in her system, that would have exacerbated the effect of the Quaaludes, which she did have a prescription for. She wasn't abusing these, but it's a pretty low amount. I think it's probably an error. Frankly, people been trying to figure it out for a long time. I think it's probably just an error. She was not wearing a seatbelt, which contributed to her death. Though we just put a picture of the car on the screen for people who are watching it. This is a terrible accident. I mean, essentially the entire front part of this car is pushed into the driver's compartment. She would not have survived this. It didn't really matter if she was wearing a seatbelt. In fact, in some strange way, if she'd been thrown from the car, she might have had more of a chance to survive than being in that car when she had that impact. So her autopsy revealed that she did have, and this is probably no surprise given what we have learned so far, dangerously high levels of plutonium, really throughout her system, in her lungs, in her blood, everywhere. She has plutonium all through her.
- [19:51]
Brett
Real quick question. I feel like I should know this. This has escaped me. What are the effects of plutonium on your body? I know people have asked this. What are the effects both physically but also mentally in terms of having these high levels? I don't think we do studies of this on people because it would be inhumane to expose people to this high level of plutonium. But do you know, I feel like.
- [20:12]
Alice
You know, thankfully Chernobyl happens.
- [20:15]
Brett
Thankfully.
- [20:16]
Alice
Goodness, Grace, I don't know if we're gonna say that's thankful or not, but. So Chernobyl gave us a lot of information on the of radiation on the body and as well as a few accidents that happen beforehand. The demon core that we mentioned before, and the thing that is terrifying about radiation, number one, the long term effect of plutonium is cancer. You know, if you have plutonium in your system, if you're exposed to radiation, you're much more likely to have cancer later on in your life, though. One thing that's interesting, if you've listened to Radioactive, which is the ABC special, they. They totally go in that this is a conspiracy. That is their position. And I respect them for laying that out from the beginning, but also say they did a lot of investigation which revealed some stuff that cuts against their theory. One of those was they talked to an expert at the time. It was actually believed that plutonium was much more dangerous. It's very dangerous, but much more dangerous than even it is that the cancer risk was much higher. And in fact, the amount of exposure she had had probably would have only had a moderate increase in her cancer risk. Acute radiation sickness, which she did not have and she was not exposed to enough radiation to have it is terrifying because once you are exposed to a fatal dose of radiation, you are dead. Your body hasn't caught up to the fact yet, but you are dead. You don't know it, you feel fine. There's no sort of mental effects, nothing like that. But what has essentially happened is your bone marrow is dead and you can no longer reproduce cells. So your body almost rots around you while you're still alive. And death is horrific. It's a terrible way to die. Your skin just sort of sloughs off, you bleed out. It's awful. But A plus is at least you know, your mind remains perfectly fine to experience all this. So in short, the effect on her physically, mentally would have been negligible to the extent anything's going on with her, causing her to be drowsy, for instance, or to have this. This accident, or maybe to be experiencing some paranoia, whether justified or not, would not have been caused by the plutonium. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds.
- [22:54]
Brett
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- [24:24]
Alice
And kids also get unlimited talk and text with Gab messenger, the first messaging and video calling app designed with kids. Safety is the top priority. And that's the thing about Gab. It's all about keeping your kids safe. And it doesn't just keep kids informed. Gab messenger blocks high risk messages and content with nudity from ever reaching your child's phone in the first place. In fact, Gab's phones and watches are built with smart filtration that proactively blocks harmful content before ever reaching your child. Like Alice, I have young kids. My daughter, this Christmas, she said, daddy, can I get one of those watches that does everything? And I knew exactly what she was talking about. And frankly, my thought was, no, there's no way you can. But that's the great thing about Gab is it makes these products, including watches, that do everything, that don't do everything, and that certainly don't allow your kids to access all the things you don't want them to see. Protecting your kids has never been easier. For the best deals, sign up to Gab today. No contract required@gab.com prosecutors that's gab gabb.com prosecutors gab.com prosecutors terms and conditions apply.
- [25:49]
Brett
And that is really interesting because I think that is another aspect of the conspiracy that people think is like, whatever's happening to her. There's multiple potential conspiracies happening. But what we don't think is happening is that the amount of contamination is causing her to believe these things are happening. Something else might be, but the mental effects are not coming from the plutonium itself. And also then goes to kind of question why? And we'll get more into this in the theories why, if someone was trying to poison you, they use plutonium when the effects are basically just death. But later on, not necessarily immediately. So you don't cut someone off right away like, say, a car accident would. Car accident shuts you up immediately. Right, because it ends your life immediately. Whereas plutonium takes a lot longer and leaves a pretty long trail because of the. It's hard to get rid of plutonium. Hence all the contamination. Decontamination, recontamination. Right. You can see exactly where the contamination is going or coming. Because of that radioactive footprint.
- [26:53]
Alice
Okay? So, November 20, 1974, the OCAW, which is the union. Files a complaint with Washington, D.C. office of the United States Justice Department. Demanding that there be an investigation. Into what they call a bizarre plutonium contamination. And the violent death of Karen Silkwood. So they are all in. They think whatever happened, there needs to be an investigation. And they get one. November 21st, the FBI begins to investigate. The potential wrongdoings. Of Kerr McGee against Karen Silkwood. And as I said, you can now access that FBI report and read it. It's very interesting. So now we're in December of 1974. So about a month after Karen had taken the test. Remember, she had all those tests about the level of plutonium. Remember, she had done those samples, the urine samples, the fecal sample. She'd actually spilled some of the urine sample. Which was the theory about how her apartment was so contaminated. Because essentially she had plutonium all throughout her body. She takes a urine sample, she spills the urine. The urine has plutonium in it. Now, plutonium is all over the bathroom. It then gets transferred all over the apartment. So she had turned those samples in. It takes a while to do that kind of work. To find out exactly what those results are going to be. So in December, they get the results back. They're the results from the urine and fecal samples. And they are astonishing, stunning to anyone who sees them. They are extremely contaminated. So much so that looking at the sample, you could see the plutonium with the naked eye in these samples. Now, it was difficult, if not impossible, to imagine. How this level of plutonium could have passed through Karen's body. Which led to a conclusion which no one could really explain. And that's that Karen's test had been salted. So essentially, someone had added plutonium. That had not passed through her body to the test. And the question was, who would have done that? Did Karen sort of spike her own kits to try and expose Kermagee? Did someone within the company spike them to try and Scare Karen into quitting or to intimidate her? Was it someone else altogether? Karen's urine was also found to contain uranium 205. Now, why is this weird? Well, so there are lots of different isotopes of uranium. There's a lot of different isotopes of plutonium, and they're used for different functions. Uranium 205 was an isotope that was not associated with any of the work that Karen was doing at the facility. So there didn't seem to be any way she could have come into Contact with Uranium 205. Which only led to more speculation that this was an intentional act. That either someone had contaminated her or had contaminated the test on purpose.
- [29:55]
Brett
Which is so bizarre because it was pretty obvious that it was spiked. This couldn't pass through her body and then originate in her fecal or urine samples. It seems that whoever did this wasn't playing the long game. Because when the test came back and you could quite literally see the plutonium with the naked eye, you would know that someone had spiked it. So what was the purpose? Like, in other words, whoever did it would be found out. I think this is a really interesting thing, because maybe the person didn't have to play a long game. But why not, right? That's kind of the question here. So despite all of the crazy, very unexplainable things we've just talked about. Several months later, in April of 1975. So what is that? About five months after her death, the FBI investigations closed. Done. Allegedly, the FBI had a series of meetings with Kerr McGee and closed the investigation. Without really looking into the true cause of the plutonium poisoning and ultimately Karen's death. So we've worked a lot with agents and files and whatnot. And some of you may be thinking, well, maybe it was just closed to the outside and whatnot. When you close a file, it means you're done. Now, you don't have to always make public when you close a file. So maybe things are going on that we don't know of. But in terms of when agencies close a file, what that means is we are no longer pursuing anything within this. Because there has either been no evidence to further the investigation. Or there's no crime or something like that. But it's not like we'll put it on hold because we've heard of other cases. Like when the FBI publicly announced that they closed the DB Cooper case, for example. They had it open for, like, decades, right? And they can still have it open. They can also reopen it. But you don't usually close a case because that's an affirmative thing that you do for a case. If you have a cold case, you can just leave it open indefinitely. So this is an interesting move because this is only five months after her death that they decide to close the case, as opposed to maybe 50 years later. You can understand why they close a case.
- [31:57]
Alice
Now, let me say this. We have described this the way it is always described in coverage of this case. This is not true. It was something you could say back in the 80s and 90s, and it sounded spooky, right? But now that we have the file, you can read the file. They absolutely investigated this. And whether you think they came to the right conclusion or not, you can read the file. You can read all the people they talk to. You can read the Accident Recreationist. I don't know if that's what we call them. Reconstructionist. You can read all the various things they did. You can read the files between the U.S. attorney and the FBI. Whether or not you agree with them, it is not the case that the FBI talked to somebody at Kerr McGee and then closed the file. In fact, they talked to a lot of people that Karen knew. In fact, a lot of the things we have mentioned come from the file, including interviews with people who were at that meeting that night. And their description of her are in that file. Whenever we do these cases, we have a website, prosecutors, podcast.com. i know a lot of you never go there, but we always put a lot of the links to the various things that we used as research for these cases. And one of them we will link to is the FBI file. Go read it. You know, it's several hundred pages, but it's not incredibly long file and you can learn something. It looks just like the files we still get from the FBI for our cases. So it's worth reading and it's worth checking out.
- [33:22]
Brett
As we always say, go to the primary sources. Right? Because you're right. When you search this case, that's all I see. They never investigated or they didn't investigate. But it's nice to be able to see what was actually done. Now this brings us to November 1975. The U.S. senate announces that they're going to launch an investigation into Karen Silkwood's death. Now, this investigation, by the way, I also hope that if I die a mysterious death, I get the US Senate involved to open an investigation. Now, this investigation is apparently shut down after a secret meeting between a senator and the chairman of the board at Kerr McGee. So this is not looking great, or it's looking great. For your conspiracy theory. Right. The U.S. senate's like, I don't like what's happened in terms of if the prosecutor and the investigators are corrupt or part of this conspiracy. We're going to look into this. But then here comes the board chairman of Kerr McGee, the employer. And all of a sudden the investigation's closed. So then this brings us to December 1975. Kerr McGee announces that they'll be closing the Cimarron site. This is the site where Karen was working. So if we're talking about a cover up, that's quite the COVID up to just close it all down, walk away.
- [34:38]
Alice
And I just want to raise one other possibility. We're gonna talk about theories, but I don't think we have this as a theory. And it's not something I've ever heard anybody mention. But the presumption is always that Kerr McGee is the one who killed Karen. I think people should consider the fact that if she were murdered, could have been a co worker, because not everyone would have agreed with what she was doing. And a lot of people would have seen the danger of what she was doing that would result in exactly this. The closing of the site, the loss of good jobs. Plenty of people working at that site didn't like the union. And you could imagine that she would draw a lot of attention from those people. So something to think about when you're thinking through the case.
- [35:16]
Brett
So about A year later, November 1976, Karen's family files a federal lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma. So federal court charging the Kerr McGee Corporation with liability for Karen Silkwood's contamination and charging Ker McGee, Security Chief James Redding and his associates with a Civil Rights act conspiracy that was meant to violate Karen's Silkwood's civil rights. So even if no criminal case was brought, her family files a civil lawsuit against the company.
- [35:49]
Alice
And this was obviously a really big deal. It was a case that was followed nationally. There was a lot of reporting on it. It was something that people were really into for all the reasons you could imagine. And it was a blockbuster trial. And when it ended in 1979, the jury found Kerr McGee liable. And they actually awarded the estate, Karen's estate, $10.5 million, which was a lot of money in 1979, for personal injury and punitive damages. Now what's interesting about this, there were a lot of different charges leveled against Kerr McGee. Kerr McGee survived all of what you might consider the conspiratorial aspects of this. But what they didn't survive Was the fact that plutonium got off of that property. The fact that plutonium was found at Karen's apartment and in her body. Was, frankly enough, under the sort of the statutes and the way torts work. The fact that Kerr McGee had not. They had a duty as a company that produced this kind of material. To keep that material out of the public and on the property. And they had failed at that duty. However it happened, whatever you think happened, they had failed. As we talked about, they had no security in this place. You could have walked out with a bag full of plutonium if you wanted to. So the jury actually found forum Kerr McGee. On a lot of sort of the civil rights violations and all that stuff. But as far as letting that plutonium off the plant. They found against them and awarded Silkwood a lot of money. However, this decision would not stand. The federal Court of Appeals in Denver, Colorado. That's the 10th Circuit. Would essentially reverse. What they really did was they drastically reduced the damage award to $5,000. Which was the value of the personal property. That Karen had lost in the cleanup of the apartment. They reversed the rest of the trial court's rulings and the jury's rulings. And sent it back for another trial. So, you know, a lot of these civil suits, they can go on for a long time. In 1986, a full seven years after the first trial ended. The civil suit was on the verge of being retried. When Kerr McGee decided. The better part of valor is to walk away here. And they actually settled out of court with the estate for $1.3 million. So a tenth of what they had been on the hook for before. And frankly, probably just enough to pay the lawyers. Not a lot of money actually went to Karen's estate, Though, really, it wasn't about that for the family. They wanted someone to take responsibility for what had happened. And as we said, In 1983, there was a movie based on Karen Silkwood's story. And that movie was called Silkwood. And Meryl Streep played Karen. As I said, Cher played her roommate. So if you're looking for a movie to watch, that would be a good one. And that pretty much brings the story to an end. It sat cold since 1986 when that civil suit was finished. Though her family has never stopped fighting to find out what happened to Karen. And that's going to bring us to theories in this case.
- [39:09]
Brett
So we've talked about some of these theories throughout. I don't think any of those were spoilers. Because you can see how strange. So Many facets of this case are so strange that you can't help but think, who was out to get Karen. So there are three main lines of thinking when it comes to the plutonium poisoning and ultimately the death of Karen Silkwood. A, Karen's plutonium poisoning was accidental, and her subsequent car accident was also accidental. In other words, accident upon accident. Coincidences, not some massive conspiracy. B, Karen was intentionally poisoning herself with plutonium to expose Kermagee, and the car accident was either accidental or someone at Kermagee was at fault. C, the plutonium and Karen's death were both planned and executed by Kerr McGee and as Brett mentioned earlier, by Kerr McGee or maybe a Kerr McGee employee, even if it's not the whole company conspiring to kill her. So theory A is the most digestible theory to many people because it lacks any sort of conspiracy. That's the accident on accident theory. It's likely that the safety measures at Kermagee was extremely lackadaisical. And there's evidence to support that. I mean, what we do know is the plant ultimately shut down in 1975 after Karen died for quality issues. So there certainly seemed to be something happening there that was less than a quality work. So it's not crazy to believe that someone who was routinely working with plutonium, Karen, would accidentally be poisoned by it if the safety precautions weren't up to scratch. But this still doesn't really account for the plutonium in Silkwood's apartment or for her relatively low exposure of. Her relatively low levels of exposure when she was tested at Los Alamos, but then the high levels in her urine and stool sample when the evidence came back after her autopsy. So Karen's subsequent car accident could have also been an accident. That's possible. We know of car accidents happening all the time. We know that she had tranquilizers in her system, the Quaaludes, the really almost deadly amount of Quaaludes in her body, actually. And we know that she'd been under a lot of stress lately. Remember, she was working insane hours, clocking out at 1am clocking back in before 8am because of how high stress the work was at this time. And she was driving at night when the accident happened. So it's not hard to believe that she could have just fallen asleep at the wheel. And in fact, several people at the union meeting reported concerns that Karen was in no condition to drive after she left. And in fact, this was not Karen's first car wreck. She'd actually wrecked her car once before on October 31st of that year. So pretty relatively recently she just had a car accident.
- [41:56]
Alice
And that car accident's important because she essentially spun around. And crashed the rear of her car into like a wall. So she had damaged the bumper of her car before this accident. And you can imagine how that makes it very difficult to determine. Whether the damage on the back of her car. Was caused by another car running into her. Or if it was left over from the prior accident.
- [42:20]
Brett
And by the way, I think. I don't know how good of a drive Karen was. But because of how close in time this was. I think that kind of might lend some support. To all those quaaludes in her system. If it was affecting her ability to be a good driver, that sort of thing. It would set some precedent for her bad driving. Right. If it was so close in time. During the stressful work season. And not just work season, but union season season as well. The union was not liked. She was on a mission to collect all these documents. To bring her employer's bad acts to light.
- [42:51]
Alice
So that brings us to theory B. Which is the self contamination theory. So supporters of this theory believe that Karen was so intent on exposing Kerr McGee. That she poisoned herself in order to further the cause. This was the position of Kerr McGee. And lawyers argued that Karen stole plutonium from the plant. And took it home to contaminate herself. One of the defense attorneys argued that she was emotionally unstable. And possibly had been affected by the use of tranquilizers. She had been involved in this bitter fight between her union and the company. And she was set to prove that the plant was dangerous. And she was willing to do whatever it took to accomplish that. Even if it meant making herself ill. The FBI also questioned her reliability. From one of their reports. In that file we talked about. Various items were recovered from Silkwood's apartment in a contaminated state. These items are being stored in a safe place at the Crescent facility. Inasmuch as they are hot with radiation. These items include two roaches. Partially smoked marijuana cigarettes. And several inches of marijuana plant. Also recovered at her apartment, but not hot. Is what appears to be a narcotics kit. Which included a syringe, two needles, small vial and a larger vial. Also obtained at the apartment was a list of what appears to be a separate budget for, I think her boyfriend. The name is blocked out in Karen. One of the budget entries is for an item dope. With the maximum amount indicated for this entry under Karen's name of $300. There are indications that Karen had contact with several juveniles. In the immediate Crescent area. And reportedly supplied those juveniles with drugs. And had reportedly also indicated to these persons. That she had diverted a quantity of nuclear material. Further inquiry is being made by the Atomic Energy Commission and Kerr McGee in this regard. So there is sort of this speculation by the FBI based on things they found. That maybe she wasn't just using quaaludes. She was also using other drugs and harder drugs. Now, I will note none of those drugs were found in her system when the autopsy was performed. These juveniles, we don't know who they are. Who knows if what they're saying is true. Also, if Karen was smoking some marijuana at the time, she wouldn't have been the only person. It was the 70s. So I don't know how significant this is. But at the time, the FBI, you know, was on the sort of, you know, marijuana is the devil thing. So it's not surprising that seeing marijuana at her apartment, apparently she's spending about $300 on it. Would lead them to question her reliability. And this has been something that has sort of hung over this case since. So if you believe this theory, you would have to believe that Karen knowingly exposed herself to enough plutonium. That cancer was pretty much guaranteed, at least based on what she understood at the time. Karen, you know, her family insisted, look, no way this happened near the end of her time at Kermage. She just wanted to be done. She was scared. She wanted to leave the company. She wanted to go home. Her plan was to turn over the documents to the New York Times and then quit her job. That's what she wanted to do. If you listen to radioactive, there are tapes of her discussing with the union person exactly this plan. That when she was done, she was leaving. You know, maybe Kermagee has to close the facility behind her, but she was done. And even if you believe that she knowingly contaminated herself, that's only part of the story. There's still the issue of her death. Did she accidentally drive off the road, or was something more sinister at play? Kerr McGee's lawyer had alleged that Karen is using these tranquilizers. There was more than enough tranquilizer in her body at the time to make her drowsy. He had the alcohol. I mean, who knows what all is going on? So she probably just fell asleep at the wheel, drove her car off the road, and her death was all a big accident. But there are a few issues with this. Number one, it doesn't explain skid marks on the road and damage to the bu that indicate she may have been hit from behind. It also doesn't explain where the documents Karen had been, had, had, and in fact had been seen to have with her went. Where did they go after the accident? And finally, the timing would be so incredibly convenient for Kerr McGee that she would just so happen to die in an accident on the way to expose everything she had learned to the New York Times.
- [47:21]
Brett
Finally, Theory C is the most conspiratorial of all. Kerr McGee intentionally poisoned Karen and caused her accident and therefore her death. Because Karen was a whistleblower, obviously. I mean, there was a movie made about this. You hear all these strange facets of this case. It's not that many leaps to get to a conspiracy and to see why there may be support for such a theory. Karen, we know, had been extremely outspoken, spoken about the issues at Kerr McGee. Remember, it's not like she'd been a long time employee there. She basically gets to Kermagee and starts making her moves in the union within like the first few months. She'd only been there for what, a couple years? And she is making quite the ruckus for being an employee here. And she had gone to the AEC with accusations about the company, and she had taken up the task of collecting evidence to expose this nuclear giant, this nuclear giant that was going to change the world for the better. Right? This was a huge deal and she was doing actions that could take it down. So perhaps Kermage intentionally poisoned her with plutonium to scare her off, you know, to say, stop it now or something worse is going to happen. And they could have been hoping that this would scare her enough to. For her to quit her job and then they would be done with her. Remove the problem. No one kind of causing ruckus with the union trying to collect all these documents. But even though they kept contaminating her, that just didn't work. She was tenacious. She kept coming back. And so they had to resort to a more extreme way to get rid of her. So someone at the company made sure that Karen would never make it to the New York Times meeting. They hit her from behind, ensuring that she would drive off of the road. According to abc, in addition to the skid marks on the road and the damage to her bumper, there's evidence to suggest she may not have been asleep when the accident occurred. So ABC News reported, her steering wheel bent and broken, could indicate that Silkwood braced her arms as the impact occurred. Inconsistent with someone being unconscious at the time of the accident. The FBI would later speculate that the tow truck that pulled Karen's car out of the ditch had actually caused the damage to her bumper. This theory was supported by the lack of paint transfer on her car. And this theory was bolstered by the location of the damage to the bumper. Which was so low on the bumper that any car involved would have had to be lower than the Honda itself. Which, if you've seen a Honda Civic, it's a relatively small car. It's not an suv, It's a sedan. And so it had to be a car that was even lower to the ground than the Honda Civic. They further speculated that skid marks such that they existed. Were from previous accidents. We already talked about how she did get in an accident just on October 31st. They further said in the official report from crime scene investigators. That cast doubt on the existence of skid marks at all. So maybe that's actually just been something that's been said into the story. So much that we accept as true. But maybe there actually weren't even skid marks. So if Kermicke caused the accident. They would have had to have the opportunity to remove, or at least ensure Someone removed the documents Karen had compiled. Before anyone else could get their hands on them. Again, if you look at the picture of the car, it's pretty mangled. It's a mangled metal mess. So you'd have to think they somehow knew where the documents were going to be. And were able to extract them from that mangled mess. After the accident, before the police, the ambulance, the tow truck, everyone came. The most difficult part of this theory to believe, though. Is the number of people. Who would have had to have been involved to make it work. Some people alleged that the Oklahoma Highway Patrol were a part of the conspiracy. And made sure that Kerr McGee was notified of the accident first. Giving them time to remove the documents. Additionally, there are accusations that the FBI investigation was effectively shut down. Because they were in cahoots with Kerr McGee. And same with that congressional hearing. Though this seems crazy, it's not impossible to believe. Especially when you're talking about a powerful nuclear corporation. That does involve the federal government. So if you ever were to have, like, people in high places be in a conspiracy. You can imagine why it would be, say, for nuclear power. That has more implications Than just some private business trying to make money. It has national security concerns. It has national dominance concerns as well. But you'd also have to believe that basically, Karen Silkwood, Just a couple years earlier. A stay at home mother of three. Is now the target of a massive murder conspiracy. Involving the most high up in the government as well as one of the largest corporations in the country.
- [52:23]
Alice
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- [53:31]
Brett
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- [55:28]
Alice
Air Doctor was voted best air purifier by Newsweek. So it's no surprise that 98% of Air Doctor customers agree their homes air feels cleaner, safer and healthier. Unlike other purifiers, Air Doctor captures invisible particles a hundred times smaller than standard HEPA filters. Head to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code prosecutors to get up to $300 off today. Air Doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee plus a 3 year warranty and $84 value free. Get this exclusive podcast only offer now at airdoctorpro.com air d o c t o r pro.com using promo code Prosecutors okay, so I think that brings us to our theories of the case and I'll go ahead and start. So I think obviously at first glance the Occam's razor theory here is this was an accident. She fell asleep, she got in a wreck, she died. That's not what I actually think happened. And I want to go through sort of why that is and sort of walk you through my own theory of what happened here. First of all, let's look at the evidence both for she was awake and murdered and she fell asleep. Because what is striking about this case is how much evidence there is for both and how do we reconcile that? So let's start with awakened murdered. So there was a small amount of damage to the bumper, the bumper was damaged and that was indicative, many people thought of someone struck her in the back and forced her off the road to her death. Now, as we said earlier, there was no evidence on the ground of braking. So remember, she goes from the right lane across the left lane into the grass and the mud and she drives for the length of a football field before striking the culvert. So she is driving for quite a period of time on the grass. So you don't see a lot of evidence of braking. And it seemed like that the car hit the culvert at less than highway speed. So the no braking might be an argument for oh, she was asleep because she didn't brake. But when you look at how the accident happened, it seems like she wasn't going at highway speed when she struck it. And the only way that she could have been going about 20 miles less than highway speed was if she did hit the brakes at some point, which would indicate that she was awake before this happened. As we said earlier, she had these injuries to her arm and the way the steering wheel was damaged that indicated that she was awake embracing when she hit the culvert. Generally speaking, if you fall asleep, you tend to go to the right. So imagine the average person, I don't know whether she was left handed or right handed. Most people are right handed. You're right hand dominant. If you fall asleep, typically the last thing you do as you're falling asleep is you fall to the right and you jerk the car to the right and your car goes off the right. That's typically what happens when someone falls asleep in a car. Obviously if you're left handed, it might be different. Like I said, I don't know if she was left handed, but typically you see someone go to the right. But the other thing that's interesting about this is because of the way this accident happened, you would expect that if she had gone to sleep, given where this was, and you would have to look to see this. But this is what investigators say, that if she had just fallen asleep and drifted off the road, even if she went to the left, even if she went over the left lane, she would have gone into the grass and missed the culvert. She would have just drifted off into the culvert. Eventually she would have ran into something else or she would have woken up. The other thing that's interesting about this going to the left thing, most roads are built such that there is a rise in the middle of them, even if it's slight because the rain then washes off the road. Right. Well, once again, if you go to sleep, you would think the most natural thing would be to go to the right because you're going downhill. So this is all an indication that she was awake. Something happened, she wasn't asleep. There was something else going on here. Moreover, there was no attempt to move the car off a straight line. It did just that. It went in a straight line which indicated the car was under some sort of control. Right. Like you would think if she was asleep, you know, the car would have gone sort of like whatever way it would have gone, it wouldn't have just gone straight into this culvert. There was another sign of control. At the very last moment, the car turned to the right, indicating that someone was in control of the vehicle at at least the last minute. And the papers that she intended to give to the New York Times were missing. And the papers that were in the car weren't muddy, which is unusual because witnesses would testify there was a lot of mud on the ground and that they had seen some papers on the ground and a police officer had actually picked those up and put them back in the car. And they would have thought they would have been muddy, but the papers they eventually found weren't muddy. So these are all sort of indications of something weird going on here. And that's a lot, right? I mean, that's a lot of evidence that she's awake when this happens, which would indicate that she was hit from behind. But let's look at the evidence. She fell asleep. So she did have a large amount of Quaaludes in her body, far more than necessary to cause severe drowsiness in most people. And in fact, a lot in her stomach that was undigested, which indicates that she had been taking them shortly before her death to the extent that if that had been digested, the level in her blood might have even been at toxic levels. That's a lot. And the kind of thing that would make you think maybe someone could fall asleep. She hadn't been sleeping. That's why she was on the Quaaludes. She was incredibly stressed out. She was incredibly paranoid and concerned she couldn't go to sleep. That's why she'd been given the Quaaludes in the first place, which means she was in a pretty bad place physically and mentally when she was in that car. The people at the meeting had been concerned that she was not fit to drive. In fact, they had offered to drive her home because they were so worried about her. There are no skid marks on the road. You hear that? There were skid marks. Sometimes that appears to be a rumor. Everyone, the witnesses, the highway patrol, the FBI, even people who think that she. Something mysterious happened to her. The New York Times reporter, they just don't report these skid marks. So it just doesn't seem like there are skid marks. Now, why is that important? Someone hits you from behind, they force you off the road, you slam on the brakes, you're suddenly moved off your straight line to go to the left. There's going to be skid marks. You're going to leave something behind, and there's nothing there. And as we said, there's no evidence of heavy braking once the car went off the road. Now, this can go either way, as we said earlier. But think about it. If you had just been hit from behind and forced off the road, what are you going to do? You're going to slam on the brakes. And so you would expect to see a bunch of torn up ground as you're slamming on the brakes to try and stop. And we don't see that. And there was no attempt to move that car off a straight line after it went off the road. You would think if someone had hit you from behind, you would be spinning the wheel, you would be turning, you'd be losing control. Once again, you would see all this evidence. So this is all evidence that she fell asleep. And the problem with all this is it's so contradictory. You see this evidence that she was awake. You see this evidence that she was asleep. And how do you reconcile this? Well, I think you reconcile it the same way you reconcile the unusual aspects about her radiation poisoning. How is it possible that she could have those levels of radiation when she wasn't contaminated, when she left the plant, when there's no evidence of contamination in the places she worked, when you see radiation from isotopes that weren't even in the area she was working, and you see them in her apartment when her roommate and her boyfriend, who were both at the apartment, didn't have any radiation. And then you see the salted samples that come back. Plutonium that could not have gone through her body. And you think, how is this possible? And you might say, well, Kermagee, they're trying to scare her. They're trying to freak her out. They're trying to make her think she's contaminated. That makes no sense. The last thing Kerr McGee would want is an employee with that level of plutonium in their body, because it confirms everything Kieran had been saying. The thing that makes the most sense about the plutonium contamination is that Kieran did it to herself. That she thought, the one way I can prove this is happening is to do this, to salt my own samples to show exactly what's going on here. And when she did that, Kerr McGee immediately knew what was going on and they confronted her about it. And after they confronted her, she called the New York Times and said, hey, I'm ready to meet with you. I have all the documents. And Karen, who was under immense pressure, who was a low level employee who probably could not have gotten these documents even if she wanted to, there was only one thing she could do. And I think this was an intentional accident. But it wasn't someone else who did it. It was Karen. I Think Karen chose to drive off the road that night into the culvert. I think this is essentially a suicide. I think it is a similar case to the one we talked about with the lawyer from Guatemala, Rodrigo Marzano. Someone who was so passionate and believed so deeply in what they were doing that eventually they would take their own life. I think the only way you can reconcile what happened to Karen, the fact that she's under control when she drives off that road, the fact that she drives over a football field in a straight line towards a culvert, only turning at the last moment, bracing herself against the steering wheel before she is in a wreck, indicates to me that this was intentional. I don't think she had any documents. I don't think she could prove this. I think the only way out for her at that point was to do something like this. So never seen that theory before. It's going to be controversial, but that's what I think happened. I think at the end of the day, Kieran took her own life.
- [66:02]
Brett
I mean, it makes a lot of sense because of all the unexplainable things that we've looked at in terms of the trail crumbs, right? The crumbs of contamination. It makes no sense. I couldn't put two and two together how she could be decontaminated. And if you remember the way she gets contaminated, there's recontamination from when she clocks back in. So that would make sense if there really was a hole in that glove box, that she would get contaminated again. But it's when she starts getting contaminated, when she leaves and comes back, there should be no plutonium outside of the plant. But when she comes back, she's been decontaminated. And she clocked out as decontaminated and comes back after going to a meeting, after going home as contaminated. That's where it doesn't make any sense. And I understand why people would think, of course, the company she's pursuing to take down or at least to expose for bad practices would have a motive, right, to do something to her. But not in this way, really think about everything that would go wrong for Kermicke. If the person who was trying to expose them, their bad practices is the one contaminated, that's the last person you want contaminated. And because of the things we said earlier, this would absolutely draw the ire of investigations and whatnot. And in fact, it did, right? There was a congressional investigation that opened and then quickly closed, probably, I think, because they saw documents, maybe from the lawyers, maybe from the FBI report in terms of Showing pretty definitively what was happening, or at least that the contamination could not have come from within the plant. But let me put a slightly softer bent on what may have been going through Karen's mind, because Karen obviously is not here to defend herself with this theory. I think in her mind there was no way out. That's why I asked all those questions about the plutonium's effects on the brain. The plutonium wasn't affecting her brain. I think her brain was already in a very desperate place when she started contaminating herself with plutonium. I mean, she is contaminating herself at levels that will be life altering, potentially life ending, certainly life ending at some point. So when she reached the level, when she reached the point of even thinking up contaminating herself, I think her mind had already gone to dark, dark places that she couldn't pull herself back from. Whether it was from the Quaaludes, whether it was from, remember where she is at the time of her life. Just two years earlier, she had been a stay at home mother with her three young children. Young, young kids. I mean, so young that I think they were around age that they could, they probably can't really remember their mother. That's how young they were. It doesn't matter your life situation, whether you wanted kids or not. There is, and she certainly did. She stayed at home with them. Two years later, all of a sudden she is in a new city, divorced, without her three children who had been her entire life two years earlier. Put on top of that, she's still young. She had been on this trajectory of immense academic success that got cut short with her marriage and then quick successive pregnancies and becoming a stay at home mother. All of this with a whiplash of going back to it. But not at the levels that she was previously on track for. She was previously on track to be the ones leading this type of research, not just a low level employee. And when she gets there, she wants to be a part of something bigger. That's her whole life. That was the profile that her people who knew her had built around her. Right. So she has this emotional personal life shift that I, you know, I can only describe as whiplash for anybody under regular circumstances. Then you add on top of that the work pressures, the not sleeping, which having currently being in the stage of no sleeping with a newborn certainly changes your mind. You don't need external factors to make you act even crazier. Not sleeping is a form of torture, as we know. And then adding the Quaaludes on top, which do have mental and physical effects on her. I think at this point, before she even does the first contamination, she is in a dark place and she doesn't think there's any way out. I think when she starts going down that road of contamination, she may not have seen it clearly, but there was kind of only one path. You don't really turn back from that. Especially when I do think she knows that Kermagee found them out. And I do think she truly believes in what she was. Was collecting. I truly believe that she thought there were. There was something bigger than her. That Kermagee was endangering other people's lives. But she, like you said, she wasn't even high enough levels to be able to access the documents that could probably prove this, if they existed at all. And so in some ways it was like whether she thought of it that way or not, in her mind, it may have been stress, but also I am simply showing the world what I know they are doing, but I cannot prove. And so in some ways, I think she thought of herself, this may be too fantastical, but somewhat like a sacrificial lamb. But I don't know that she ultimately thought this would lead to such a violent death.
- [71:12]
Alice
No, look, I think she was absolutely committed to the cause and she believed in it. And I think she. She totally thought that Kerr McGee was cutting corners. And they may very well have. This is not a defense of Kerr McGee. And she was probably very worried about her co workers and their health. And she thought they were being exposed to things. And she talked about that. And they had already gone to Washington with all these concerns. And Washington tells them we need some documentation. You're going to have to get something from the company to prove this. And just think about this. This is something nobody ever asks. How exactly would she have done that? That she's a low level person. It's not like she's an executive. She's not even the kind of low level person, like a secretary or something who might be able to get it. How is she going to get this? And she's the one tasked with doing it. She's the one with all the pressure on her to somehow produce this evidence. Guys, I don't know about you, but this was a cold winter. And I gotta tell you, the one thing that warmed me up was a nice bottle of wine. Problem is, I don't know anything about wine. I know it comes in a bottle. I know some of it's white, I know some of it's red. And that's about it. But that's why I am a member of First Leaf. With First Leaf, not only do I get to enjoy personalized wine just for me, but I get to have fantastic bottles on hand to share with friends and family. And First Leaf is great at picking out wines based on my preferences. You fill out this little survey, you tell them how adventurous you want to be and they are going to send you wines you are going to enjoy. And that includes special occasion wines like sparkling wines. And getting started with First Leaf is a breeze. You answer those few quick questions about your wine preferences, they put together an amazing assortment of top notch wines. Wines it comes to you and then you get to rate the ones you like so that every time you get a shipment of First Leaf wine, it's better every single time.
- [73:13]
Brett
Guys. I personally love Malbec and I felt like I knew everything about Malbec but I told First Leaf sure pick out some Malbecs for me. And they picked out some of their fine wines in the Malbec section that I've never heard of before and they blew away my dinner party. Truly some of of the best wine that I've had. And even better yet, I got to impress all of my guests with all of my wine knowledge which came from First Leaf. And one of the best parts about First Leaf is that if you get a bottle that you don't absolutely love, it's not a problem because first leaf has a 100% satisfaction guarantee. So make every cozy night in special with wines from First Leaf that you know you'll love. Go to try firstleaf.com prosecute to sign up and you'll get your first six hand picked bottles for just $44.95. That's T R Y F I R S T l e a f.com prosecute try firstleaf.com prosecute homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home.
- [74:39]
Alice
And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent so when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in1place.homes.com. we've done your homework.
- [75:11]
Brett
And remember, you know, putting yourself back there. Of course, those of us on the outside, not in the midst of. Of whatever she was going through, can say, of course you could just pull out and be like, you did it. You definitely did it. But I can't find. But you're too good. You're a. A massive nuclear company who has the backing of, you know, high level federal officials. You've obviously been able to hide the documentation that you can say that. We know that from the outside. But remember what she's facing. People don't like her around her. If she fails at this, not only may she lose her job, she's brought in the New York Times, she's brought in Okaw union officials from D. She's brought in, she's kind of sounded the big alarm that can't be unrung, right? She's like, here it is. She's not only going to lose her job, but everyone around her. She had to start her entire life over at age 26, in a new town, new co workers, new friends, new boyfriend, new roommate, everything. And she would stand to lose everything yet again in a span of two years. I mean, hopefully none of you have had to face losing everything in your life in the blink of an eye, but it seems like she'd already gone through that and facing down kind of this next path of potentially losing everything yet again within two years of just having lost everything. I can imagine how she got to such a dark place mentally and emotionally that led her down this path.
- [76:33]
Alice
And think about the samples. Ker McGee was always pretty convinced that she had. She had contaminated herself when she went home because she had no contamination when she left. And then all of a sudden, her apartment's contaminated. So they were. They thought she'd stolen some plutonium because of their lax security procedures and done this. Think about the samples themselves. Okay, like, maybe you think now that's ridiculous. They were poisoning her for some reason. Okay, fine, they were poisoning her. But think about the samples. Who would salt samples with so much plutonium that you could see it. Someone who doesn't really understand plutonium would do that. The Kermagee people, the experts, the people in the lab, they immediately recognized, that's ridiculous. You can't do that. That's absurd. That didn't go through her system. Somebody did that. They put it in there. Who would have done that? She would not have necessarily known that. That's the kind of thing you do when you don't really understand plutonium. It's not the way, if you're Kerr McGee in this sophisticated conspiracy, that you would do this. You wouldn't even bother to do that because you've already contaminated her. Right? Like, you've accomplished your mission. Mission. You wouldn't do that. You would understand that's not a mistake you would make if you're Kermagee. But the mistake was made. So somebody did that. Somebody did something that was so obviously false. That they knew immediately it was false and reported that it was false. I mean, Kermagee didn't say, wow. You know, it's hard to even imagine why Kermagee would do this. Since they're trying to prove that they're safe, but assume they did it on purpose. They didn't say, man, she must have really been incompetent because. Because only somebody who really didn't know what they were doing. Would have so much plutonium in their system. You can literally see it in their samples. They didn't say that. They said, this is absurd. Somebody salted these samples. Somebody tampered with these samples. There's no way this is what you would get. You have to explain that. If you think that Karen wasn't attempting to sort of put some weight on the scales. To prove to everyone that Carmagee was truly incompetent in how they were protecting workers.
- [78:33]
Brett
And remember that rumor that she said? And then someone apparently called into the radio station. Saying that someone had stolen plutonium. And we had said when we mentioned that fact, whether it was true or not, whether she had heard the rumor or not. Where she had heard the rumor is how would she know about it? And there was no evidence ever of it. And it very well may be that she knew that much plutonium was stolen because she was the one who took it. That would give her the access to be able to do all of this contamination outside of Kermigi conspiring. And remember another time in the timeline of contamination. Where it seems like someone may not have exactly known how plutonium contamination works. Double backs is when her roommate and her boyfriend are tested and they're not contaminated, Then, lo and behold, what happens? They're immediately contaminated. Later that day, it was almost like someone gave her the answer. Like, well, two plus two doesn't add up here. So what happened? And so she goes and fixes it, and all of a sudden, they're contaminated. You would think that sleeping next to her the night before is what would contaminate her boyfriend. Not after he'd gone to work and she had gone to work and tested contaminated, that later on he would be found contaminated. Kind of all these strange. Not strange. It makes sense if it's intentional, but that doesn't appear to be the touch transfer contamination that you would expect would have happened.
- [79:51]
Alice
And then there's the Quaaludes. So, you know, people try and argue away the Quaaludes. Like I said earlier, maybe she's built up a tolerance so she can take more. Why would she be taking Quaaludes right before getting on the road? She took the Quaalude so she could sleep. Because she couldn't sleep. She now has to drive to Oklahoma City. Quaaludes are not uppers. You know, she's not taking meth and having some bizarre reaction to it. It. Before she died, very soon before she died, she took a large number of Quaaludes, enough that there were still Quaaludes in her stomach. That was undissolved, that was undigested. That seems like the kind of thing you would do if you're planning on doing something like running your car into a culvert and you're. You're essentially numbing yourself to that fact.
- [80:41]
Brett
And obviously, you know, 2020 hindsight, but, but remember, a lot of the people who were at that meeting at the bar before she left noted something about her. They said that she was crying and that she seemed not well in a mental place to be able to drive herself home. Obviously it would be emotional to be driving to meet Burnham, to pass these documents over the New York Times, but you would think after she's worked so hard for this, this has been something she's worked on for months, it would be more of a euphoric experience, like, finally they're going to be exposed. Everything I've worked for is coming to fruition. This is no longer going to be my burden anymore. Now it's going to be the New York Times, the world's going to know what's happening rather than a crying, I'm breaking down here, because this is what she's built towards. You would think it would be the opposite effect, more of a euphoric effect rather than a crying, too upset to be driving herself type of thing. We don't know what was going through her mind, but if she knew what was about to happen, what she had to do when she got in that car because she didn't have the documents to turn over to the New York Times, she knew before she got to Oklahoma City this had to all end. I too would probably be crying because she knows exactly what she is going to do. May explain her emotional state.
- [81:54]
Alice
And the last thing I'll say about this, I talked about this a little bit earlier, but I want to, I want to emphasize it. You don't drive 100 yards in a straight line with no braking. If you've been hit from behind, that's not what you're going to do. And it doesn't seem like the kind of thing you do if you're asleep either. And there's that last minute turn of the wheel. Now it's possible that she somehow slept through everything up to that point. She wakes up, she turns the wheel. But I think the more likely thing is what you often see. It doesn't matter if you're intending to kill yourself the last minute when the wall is right there, you're just going to react. And it seems like the kind of thing where someone's driving in a straight line, they're not hitting the brake, they're intending to hit the wall. And then right before they get to the wall, they brace themselves, they turn the wheel at the last minute. Too late to save anything. But it's just a natural human reaction. So that's what I think happened. I don't think it'll ever be proven. I don't think it ever can be proven. One thing I'll say, if you listen to the radioactive podcast, they never even consider this. But if you listen to the last episode, they have an accident reconstructionist who has the bumper and listen to that episode, it is completely mysterious. If you're not thinking about this theory, listen to the episode with this theory and I think it will all fit for you. The damage on the back of the bumper almost certainly was either caused by her prior accident or by the tow truck. The individual who really wanted to give the answer everybody wanted, he had worked before with the accident Reconstructionist from the 70s who really believed this was some sort of of intentional someone had caused this to happen. He was good friends with him, considered him a mentor. He's a leading accident reconstructionist. He was the guy they wanted to do this because they trusted him. He said the damage on the bumper, it was impossible that that came from a car. It was not significant enough to do anything. And where it's positioned, there is no vehicle that was on the road at the time that if it ran into that car from behind would have done that kind of damage. It just wasn't possible. There wasn't a car low enough for it. So he's trying to explain what happened and he says a lot of things we said, and it's just completely mysterious for everybody. Like they can't really figure out how is this even possible. The only thing that ties it all together, in my view, is if it was intentional. I just don't think she fell asleep. I think she was in control of that car and I don't think anybody hit her. And that's where the evidence leads. And I don't want this to be some sort of indictment on her because I really believe that she was doing this from a good place. Like I said, it reminds me of the gentleman in Guatemala who was trying to bring down this massive corruption he saw in his own country and was willing to give his own life to do it and thought that was the only way to make it happen. I think she was in that position. She was the only person doing this. The union was in trouble. The company seemed like it had the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in its pocket and the senators in its pocket. There was nothing. Everything rested on her shoulders. And in many ways what she did succeeded. She wanted to close that plant down. She said that and she did. So, you know, you can judge that for yourself. But I don't want to come off as some sort of criticism of her or defense of Kerr McGee. It's not. I just think when you look at all the evidence and you put it together, suicide, I think is the most likely solution.
- [85:18]
Brett
Well, that was a downer. If there was ever a cold water prosecutor theory, there you have it. Because like you said, from the very beginning I thought, wow, if there ever were a conspiracy theory, this seems to fit that. But stated a slightly different way. I don't think there's evidence that Kermagee did this to her.
- [85:34]
Alice
Yeah, I don't think there's any evidence that they did it to her. And it's funny because if you listen to that, the radioactive podcast, that's really good. You should. Even the gentleman from the union who knew her her says at the end, yeah, this wasn't Kermage. They wouldn't have done this because there were all these other ways they could have dealt with this. This is silly to think they did it. And it's unclear what the theory is. I mean, I threw that out about a co worker. I mean, that's probably the best thing. Like if it were a co worker who maybe doesn't understand it as well, you know, they're salting. Somehow they get control of her. Her Test kits and they salt them and they follow her that night and they call caused the wreck, but it just. It just doesn't fit.
- [86:12]
Brett
But then when you add in like the boyfriend and the roommate, it doesn't make sense because there you really close in on who that could be. And they would have found who it was. You know, it's just too. It's too messy and it would have led to that third party who was the disgruntled co worker. And there's just absolutely no evidence of that. If it were just Karen, maybe. But then you enter. I mean, there's other people being contaminated as well. And the apartment itself, they had to gain access to the apartment. It just gets really difficult to have any evidence to show that third party.
- [86:45]
Alice
Yeah, no, I think that's right. But look, I'm really interested in what you guys think. Shoot us an email. Prosecutors Pod at Prosecutors Pod for all your social media. I'm sure people will be discussing this case on the gallery. It is a fascinating one. There's a lot of rabbit trails you can follow. Like I said. Check out some of the documentation we're going to put up. Listen to the Radioactive podcast. It's five episodes. I think it's really good. You'll enjoy it. A lot more background on this case. Read the FBI file and see what some of these people say about this. Let us know if you think, no, this is Kerr McGee all along. Or it's probably just she fell asleep. Fascinated to hear your thoughts on this case. We're always intrigued by what you think. Want to thank all our patrons for joining us early and ad free and live. If you want to join Patreon, go ahead. It's $3 a month.
- [87:33]
Brett
Month.
- [87:34]
Alice
And you get basically everything that we have. We all the. All the tiers are the same, so we're terrible business people. Okay, Alice, well, I know it's been shaky for you. Do you need to go ahead and sign off?
- [87:46]
Brett
We can answer a question, you know.
- [87:48]
Alice
Okay. I have a straightforward.
- [87:50]
Brett
People want to stick around? Yeah, let's do it.
- [87:52]
Alice
I don't know the answer to this question for me, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it to you. This is from Lillian. Lillian wants to know what was your. Your favorite toy as a child.
- [88:02]
Brett
So I think I've talked about my Land Before Time Brontosaurus, Little Foot. But I didn't know his name was Little Foot until, like, much later in life. I looked back and I was like, hey, that was Little Foot. So it was Little Foot from the Land Before Time stuffed animals. Like, it was half my size as a child, so I don't know proportionally how big it is now. But I called him Dink. I have no idea why. Like, D I n k, he was my Dink, and I loved him so much, I carried him by the neck.
- [88:28]
Alice
Somebody. After he told this story, someone posted that there was a Land Before Time. I don't call it a knockoff, but there was another cartoon that was similar to Land Before Time. And one of the dinosaurs was called Dink. So that's their theory, is that you actually saw that.
- [88:44]
Brett
Maybe. But here's the thing. It was definitely a Land Before Time doll. Like, it had the tag and second. Second. I don't think I've ever seen that other version, but maybe I heard someone else say it and I was like, dink sounds way better. But there was that. And then my other. I didn't actually have. I don't remember toys. I don't remember, like, other than that, you know, stuffy. I loved playing outside. And how about. I don't think I've told this story before. You guys deserve a story. For those of you patrons who stuck around for me to step out to take care of my baby. So I had my best friend growing up. She had a creek in her backyard, and we would go catch salamanders, lizards, tadpoles, all those things. And one of my favorite things to do with our hands, not with, like, nets or anything. Like, you know, would be easier. I'd catch all of these lizards and I would pop open their jaws and clip them on my ears like earrings. Because if you squeeze their. Their jaws, they pop open. They don't have teeth, and they digest with, like, I don't know, their stomach acids. And so, like, they clamp down. It's like, that's how they eat. So once they clamp down, they clamp on. And it's like, clamp them in my ears and then, like, swing them around because they're, you know, they're still, like, hanging off my ears. And I loved doing that. And I have lots of memories of doing this.
- [90:04]
Alice
Alice, PETA is never going to give us an award. Like, your stories about animals are always so disturbing.
- [90:12]
Brett
Like, okay, saved by the bell. I hear the baby crying. Yeah, I never hurt the lizards. I would take them off and they'd run off. They had great lives. Their tails didn't even dislodge.
- [90:26]
Alice
They were not traumatized by that.
- [90:27]
Brett
Well, I do. I do hear the baby. Now.
- [90:30]
Alice
I'll briefly answer, and then you go to the baby. So I had. I had a stuffed animal. It was the one of the little Coca Cola polar bears, like little baby ones. And I called it Iceberg. I love that. And then I was always a big Lego fan. I would build the Legos and, like, construct these elaborate stories and play them out with Legos. So I think those are my favorite toys. Okay.
- [90:52]
Brett
Normal toys.
- [90:53]
Alice
Normal toys. I didn't torture any lizards when I was a child. I was not a serial killer like some people. All right, well, that was fun. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Let us know what you think about Alice's childhood activities, if you want.
- [91:06]
Brett
No lizards were hurt in the making of that.
- [91:09]
D
That.
- [91:09]
Alice
Uhhuh. Sure they weren't. Okay, well, we'll be back next week with a new case, but until then, I'm Brett.
- [91:18]
Brett
And I'm Alice.
- [91:20]
Alice
And we are the prosecutors.
- [91:43]
Brett
All right, I'm ready whenever you are. You have to have the.
- [91:47]
Alice
Well, I'm going to give everybody 55 seconds to get here. While I'm waiting, I'm going to get there, get a word. I called you radioactive last time, Right?
- [92:04]
Brett
You did. That was really good.
- [92:06]
Alice
Something else. Let's see. What's another. What's another word for radioactive? Luminescent.
- [92:13]
Brett
O. I like that. I was just going to say something.
- [92:15]
Alice
Illuminated, but let me make sure I haven't called you. That's okay. I don't know why even listen to podcasts when Google AI will tell you everything you want to know. It's gonna have Google AI record from now on. I wonder if I could have Google listen to all our episodes and then just record from here on out. I bet it could. Nobody could fake our voices. That'd be kind of awesome. I don't know how we do these lives. That'd be a little harder. And if you guys could tell AI, Brett and Alice from real Brett and Alice else. Are you looking for your next case? Pluto TV has all your favorite crime dramas streaming for free. You're gonna need some backup, which means suspense is free. Very cool. Watch CSI New York. Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods Tracker, FBI and swat. All for free. You can out run this. Someone is going to pay for all this crime. But it's not going to be you. Take care of business, fellas. Watch all the cases, all for free from all your favorite devices. We got you feel the free Pluto TV stream. Now pay never.
- [94:49]
E
You know the names. Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, John List, Eileen Warnos. You may even know their stories. But on this show, you're going to get a peek Inside the minds of these notorious serial killers and murderers. What drives a person to kill? Is it uncontrollable rage? Overwhelming fear? Unbearable jealousy? Or is it something deeper? Something in the darkest corners of our psyche? Those are the questions we're asking on the new Crime House Original Killer Minds. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and as the host of true crime podcasts like Crime House, True Crime Stories, along with cults, female criminals, and serial killers, I've covered some of history's most notorious crimes. But what really fascinates me is the people behind them and trying to understand why they did it. To get the full picture, I needed an expert.
- [95:46]
D
And that's where I come in. My name is Dr. Tristyn Engels. As a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, I've dedicated my career to understanding offenders and what drives them. As Vanessa takes you through the stories of history's most famous violent offenders, I'll be analyzing their minds, their motives, and.
- [96:06]
E
Their murders every Monday and Thursday. Join us as we explore the psyches of the world's most frightening offenders. Killer Minds is a Crime House original. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. And now we're excited to share a clip of Killer Minds with you. Check it out. From the moment he was born on November 12, 1934, Charles Manson's life was driven by deception. His birth certificate listed Kathleen and William Manson as his parents. But for years, Charles had no idea that William wasn't wasn't his father. That honor most likely belonged to a con artist named Colonel Scott. Colonel was Scott's given first name, but if people assumed he was in the army, he didn't bother correcting them. That's how he caught Kathleen Maddox's attention at a dance club in Ironton, Ohio. He was 23. She was just 15. Kathleen was charmed by the older man she assumed was a military officer. So when she discovered she was pregnant sometime in the spring of 1934, Kathleen had no reason to doubt the colonel. When he said he was being called away on duty, he promised he'd be back as soon as he could. But she never heard from him again. After a few months, Kathleen finally realized she'd been duped. And now she needed to find someone to help raise her soon to be newborn baby. That's when William Manson, who worked for a dry cleaning business, entered the picture. It's not really clear how the two of them met, but by the time Charles was born on November 12, 1934, Kathleen and William were married.
- [98:03]
Alice
However.
- [98:04]
E
However, it doesn't seem either of them was all that interested in parenting. William wasn't around much and neither was Kathleen. Most days she dropped Charles off with her mom so she could go out drinking with her brother.
- [98:18]
D
Let's discuss the impact of Charles's early childhood. Kathleen was a minor, so her judgment, reasoning, impulsiveness, decision making, even emotional regulation is impaired because she did not have a fully developed frontal lobe. This also affects her ability to cope appropriately with the demands of being a new mother, not to mention any postpartum effects she may have had. And given that Charles's father conned his mother, she may have some conscious or unconscious resentment that she projected onto Charles. As a result, her seemingly desperate and impulsive decision to marry William appears to be driven by more societal pressures on unwed mothers back then, not necessarily a marriage that was built on love and Charles later learning that William is not his biological father will more likely than not affect his sense of self worth, his identity, and his trust. Kathleen abandoning Charles to go drinking indicates she may have an alcohol use disorder, and I also wonder if she drank while she was pregnant. That could have caused a prenatal injury and if so, would warrant further exploration to understand Charles's development. Then there's the layer of Kathleen and William's disinterest in being parents. The effects of emotionally absent parents on children is well documented. Those children tend to have more difficulty with trust, with self esteem, and forming healthy relationships. And when you compound that with the abandonment and that William wasn't his biological father, that is pretty profound. Nurturance is critical for a child's development, and if their immediate caregivers aren't providing that or reinforcing a healthy development, that child is at risk of exhibiting poor emotional regulation. Later on, they have an increase in academic struggles, behavioral deficits, and developmental delays.
- [100:20]
E
Follow Killer Minds A Crime House Studios Original now new episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. Again, that's Killer Minds. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts and for early ad free access, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.