Alice (3:00)

And I'm Alice.

Brett (3:02)

And we are the prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we continue the timeline in the West Memphis Three case. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my Timely co host, Alice.

Alice (4:03)

Hi, Brett. I don't know that I'm timely, but thanks for saying that. You know why? Because we are going to get through this case in a timely manner. So far, at this rate, I'm. That's a joke. That's a joke.

Brett (4:14)

Hey, we're doing pretty good.

Alice (4:15)

We're doing pretty good. For those of you who are like, oh, they said it's going to be an X parter. We have no idea. We have no self control. So even if we wanted it to be a certain number of parts, like, we could stick to it.

Brett (4:28)

Yeah. And I mean, this is going to be a long one just because of how we're doing it. We're basically doing a full podcast on this and then we're going to deep dive into various aspects of this. So when we finish with what is described as the outline in my files, probably most of you will be satisfied, but we won't be. So we're going to do deep dives into various aspects of it. So it's going to take some time.

Alice (4:53)

Some may call them rabbit trails, some may call them rabbit holes. Yeah.

Brett (4:56)

But there will be rabbits involved.

Alice (4:58)

There will be rabbits involved.

Brett (4:59)

I do want to say as we get started, one quick, completely unrelated thing. Today, Inconceivable Story of Temujin Kinsu came out. It's narrated by Jason Ussry, who's done a lot of original reporting in that case. That is a case we covered very early on in our podcast. We have not been shy in saying that we think Temujin is innocent. So if you're somebody who came here because you're interested in this case, because it's an innocence case, check that out. That is one that, you know. This is a case that divides people. Wars have been started over less than this case. But Temujin Kinsu is one that really brings people together and it's a great podcast and you should check it out. Okay. With that said, we're back with the West Memphis Three. We are talking about the timeline leading up to this. We focused a lot on the three who will become the West Memphis Three, Damian Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly, and sort of some of the things they were doing in the lead up To May of 1993, if you missed the first episode. We also talked about a lot of the players in this case, the background of this case, so it's worth checking out. But now we're into 1993, which is the year that this murder is going to happen. And I think we're definitely probably going to get to the day of the murder itself, if not through it, in today's episode. So with all that said, we were in the middle of sort of. Damien has had a lot of mental health issues. He has been institutionalized two or three times at this point. And we are going through some of the things that happened while he was institutionalized.

Alice (6:35)

That's right. So we start back in January of 1993, specifically January 19th. Damien describes abuse he's suffered, and he says that he just suppresses it all inside. And when he talks about this, he describes this anger simmering inside of him as more like rage. The next day, medical records note that Damien has thoughts of killing himself and others. As we know, that's part of why he's being institutionalized, because of these suicidal ideations. Damien says that the rage leads him to blow up, and when that happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. He says that he's been told he could be the next Charles Manson or Ted Bundy, and he says that people will remember him by the way. Like, I mean, you can see that this history that he has, it's all leading up to now. This is not the first time he has been explosive, the first time he has expressed suicidal ideations or wanting to hurt other people. It's been something that has followed him with kind of his tumultuous childhood with, you know, his father leaving, then coming back in the picture with a stepfather who adopts him. And then there's allegations of abuse towards his sister. So all of these things, this is not overnight. You can see that there's been a long history of leading up to where this is so much so that it's apparent to those around him. People are telling him to his face that he's going to be the next serial killer. I mean, I don't think anybody's ever taught him that, you know, that is not the greatest thing.

Brett (8:02)

It's part of his own sort of. I don't know.

Alice (8:05)

Fair enough.

Brett (8:05)

I mean, maybe people did. I don't know.

Alice (8:08)

How do we know he is. I mean, that's like a real high goal and a dark goal to be reaching towards. But all of this to show this is still months before the murders. We're going to Talk about here already we're seeing the profile of a very disturbed young man emerging.

Brett (8:27)

And if you read these psychological reports, you see this is in a lot of ways very typical because Damien has a rough life. He has an abusive family. His stepfather is abusive to him. He is an outsider. He is not like other kids. He is made fun of. He brings some of it on himself. He's violent. He does things like tries to set the school on fire, all that sort of stuff. And you know, the old saying of, like, hurt people, hurt people. Like, it is not surprising that he reacts this way. And the files talk about how this is sort of his defense mechanism in order to protect himself from all the bad things coming at him. He has become the aggressor, and that's how he sort of prevents this stuff from hurting him.

Alice (9:10)

And we'll get more into his records and whatnot. But I don't know, I'm curious, Brett, if this stuck out to you from the very beginning and just reading about who he is and reading his writings from then all the way until now. The thing with Damian, though, is he is very good at being poetic, right? The way he speaks, the way he describes things. There's a reason why people have been drawn to what he writes, because he's very good with his words. So much so that when he says things like this that people will not forget me. I'll be the next Ted Bundy, that sort of thing. He tends to speak in very, like, grand gestures. And that is kind of a euphemism for he seems to hyperbolize and lie in the way he says, just because, as we're going to see, he's going to say things that just can't possibly be true or they contradict each other. And it's almost like whenever he speaks or whenever he describes himself, even in the documentaries later on, after the conviction, he molds into whoever you kind of want him to be. That's my impression of reading all these things. But all of his self assessments are inconsistent with each other.

Brett (10:12)

And it's interesting because other people, kids from the school, kids from the area would describe how charismatic he was, which I think goes along with what you're saying, that he. He really kind of had a mesmerizing presence. And the people who liked him and the people who hung out with him were very influenced by him. And, you know, one thing, as I've said, we're going to bust a lot of myths. In this case, wherever we end up, one of the myths is just, you know, Damian was just. He was like all of us, like, you know, I used to wear black and listen to Metallica when I was in high school. I love Metallica. I listened to the Black album so much on my Sony Discman that like, I like, burned it up like it would skip. There were only a few songs I could listen to, which is fine because I liked them all. And so because of that and because there were so many of us who were like that, who played Dungeons and Dragons or whatever, there was this big connection from Paradise Lost. So many people, and you hear this in the coverage of this case, so many people identify with the myth of Damien Echols, that that's all he was. And people picked on him because of that, and they attacked him because of the music he liked and everything else. And that these juvenile corrections officers were just, you know, these crazy, satanic, panic obsessed morons who followed this kid around and tortured him and just made his life hell. When you actually look at this case, you realize none of that is true. Damien Echols, the juvenile officers who were watching Damien Echols and keeping him on the radar were doing their absolute jobs. They were in many ways trying to help him. They are the ones getting him into these psychiatric facilities because they're worried he is going to hurt someone. And their focus on him is for that reason. And given the fact that they know about some of these violent outbursts, they know about how he's viewed, even if it's irrational and even if it's a sort of round up the usual suspects type thing, There's a reason that he's one of the first people on their radar in the neighborhood, in the area. He is someone that you could imagine doing something like that. And typically that's the way police investigations proceed is with people who you can imagine. It's the same reason they also looked at all the sex offenders in the area, the same type of thing. So this. And we're going to go into more detail on this later on, but this should really disabuse you of the notion that it was just because he wore black. Like Johnny Cash. You see his family in Paradise Lost selling this lie. Even though they said to the mental health people that they were afraid of Damien, they talked about how they were worried about his interest in the occult. Then when they get in front of the cameras on Paradise Lost, oh, no, he just likes wearing black. Everybody likes wearing black, right? You get that whole thing because they are selling that story because they're trying to save his life. And I get it, right? I'm not criticizing them. It's just you as a viewer have been misled, whether intentionally or not. And I'm going to go out on a limb that if all you ever did was watch Paradise Lost, read the Devil's not, listen to some of the coverage on various podcasts. You probably have not heard these details. You might have heard that Damien had mental health issues. You might have heard that he struggled with various mental problems. But you probably never heard this much detail about what was going on with Damien. Okay, so that was January 19th. So this continues. You know, Damien's in this facility for a while. He's having these treatment sessions, and he's talking to these psychologists on January 25, 1993, during one treatment session, he talks about rituals. He talks about drinking blood, his increased interest in demonology. And once again, this is not what Jerry Driver's saying as he's driving around West Memphis under the full moon. This is what the doctors who he's talking to are writing down. He says that drinking the blood of others gives him power, and when he does it, it makes him feel like a God. He says that the spirit of a woman murdered by her boyfriend entered his body about a year before, and it has decided to become a part of him. And it gives him sort of knowledge that others would not have. Now, he says he cannot see the spirit, but he can hear it, which is usually a bad sign when you're hearing voices. But nevertheless, he also reports speaking with demons and other spirits. So this is the kind of thing he is telling his doctors four months before this murder is going to happen.

Alice (14:23)

I remember one of the things that we consistently hear is people. People say that, oh, they're, they're conflating, you know, Wiccan or, you know, Wicca and Satanism. He's never mentioned Satan. He's never mentioned, like, demons. He's only one with the earth here. In his own words, he's saying that he talks to demons and spirits and that he wants to or does feel like a God. By the way, that's exactly what Lucifer said when he took his path to be Satan, was he wanted to feel like God or he was God in this world. So that's also misleading because having just watched Paradise Lost, I also was like, oh, he never talks about Satan. Satanism. That was put on him. Here we have him saying these exact words. Again, just noting that a lot of the unfair characterizations put on why he was honed in on actually come from his own words.

Brett (15:10)

Yeah. And look, you might be thinking, sure, this didn't come into trial, and it did not. Because this is all very prejudicial stuff, right? I mean, if a jury hears this, they're going to be inclined to think this is exactly the kind of person who would kill someone. That's the whole purpose of Rule 403, Rule 404, all of that. Right. So, you know, and we're not trying to bias you against Damien, but I do think it's important to know the reality of the situation going in, because typically when this case is discussed, you are not given the reality. You are given a fantasy about the situation. There are aspects of the fantasy that are true. We're going to talk about the satanic panic, and we're going to talk about some of the stuff that was going on in West Memphis. But Damien and his words, they're not just, I like Satan. It's stuff like drinking blood gives me power, and when I get angry, it builds up inside until I explode, and then I hurt people. That is troubling. You might be wondering, how do we have this? And once again, this is kind of funny. So you remember in the Adnan said case, some of the worst facts that we talked about for Adnan said came from the defense file. And the fact that that was released was such a huge blow to especially the false story that was put forward about him in Serial. Well, in this case, it's even more egregious. So Ron Lacks, who was a private investigator, who we're going to talk about more as we go on as part of his work for the defense, he got all this together. They brought all this together and presented it to the court as mitigation in his sentencing phase. So this was presented to the jury not when they convicted him, but when they're trying to decide whether or not to give him the death penalty. This became what is known sort of infamously as Exhibit 500. It's available on Callahan and you can read all of this. And this was just incredible on goal by the defense because clearly, when they either didn't read it very thoroughly or didn't think the defense would read it very thoroughly, or didn't think the prosecution would read it very thoroughly. But it didn't take long for the prosecution to read exactly the things I was just reading to you. The whole Charles Manson, Ted Bundy drinking, blood, exploding. Direct that to the jury. And it's not surprising, given that they heard that, that they did return with a death sentence. For Echols.

Alice (17:29)

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Alice (19:00)

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Alice (21:05)

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Brett (21:39)

Okay, so that's sort of Damien and that sort of stuff. Like I said, we'll talk more about this later when we're talking about victimology and everything else and profiles of the offender. So February 1993. So after this, Damien, he gets out of this facility. Not necessarily saying that he is the subject of what occurs here, but this was testified to at trial. So three months before the murders, a man dressed entirely in black pulled into the driveway of Chris Byers house in a green car. He got out with a camera and he took a picture of Chris. At the time Chris's parents were gone, they had gone to the store to buy some cigarettes, I think some milk maybe had come back. And this occurred while they were gone. And Chris immediately runs out to them, is like, mommy, Mommy, the strange man was taking my picture. This becomes significant later on and there's a reason that it's in the trial, because there is talk of photographs of the victims and whether or not those were available to the people who would eventually be convicted of the crime.

Alice (22:41)

So now in March 1993, remember from last time, Damien's family, his sister, dad and mom had been living in Oregon and they put him on a bus and sent him back to Arkansas, where he wanted to be. Now, in March, Damian's parents and sister moved back to Arkansas from Oregon, and Damien had already been in Arkansas for about a year now. His parents followed, but at this point, he and his sister Michelle have missed so much school that neither of them end up going to school once they're in Arkansas because they wouldn't have passed the grade anyway. So they were just going to, like, wait out the year and then start again, which I don't know if that's allowed, but there you have it. Yeah, it's the 90s, right? Truancy may not have been as strictly enforced or not, but you're seeing again, kind of the instability, because what do you have when you go to school? You have community. You have other eyes on you, whether it be teachers or coaches or guidance counselors or access other friends, that sort of thing. Right. So we are beginning to see the situation that he's in. Not only did he move cross country by himself, and then his family came afterwards. He's not in, like, a stable school setting where lots of eyes are on him. Now, this next thing I'm going to tell you about, take it with me, grain of salt, because you'll understand once I tell it to you. But on March 1, 1993, Jennifer Ball is a teenager who knew Damien, and she is on the phone with her friend Amanda Lancaster during a storm. While she's on the phone, Damien Echols appears outside of Jennifer's window shouting, quote, you bitch, I'll get you. I'm gonna kill you. You're gonna die. It's unclear exactly what spurred this. And later on, Jennifer would tell the police that she could hear Damien in her mind telling her he was going, take that for what it's worth. Now, after Damian is arrested, Jennifer claimed that she received a phone call telling her that she would have been Damien's next victim. So a lot of suggestion there, obviously, because at this point, Damien's been arrested, he's been in the news. You know, what he's been accused of is a horrific triple murder. But that is what Jennifer reports.

Brett (24:46)

So this case is difficult because despite what people will tell you, the police interviewed a ton of people, and a lot of them were interviewed after the three were arrested. And I don't buy into the whole, you know, Damien says that West Memphis was the Second Salem. Right? That's his take on this. But once they were arrested, everybody had a story. Everybody had a story about a time Damien was hiding in the bushes or he was following them, or he said he was going to kill them, or he did this or he did that. And trying to determine whether their stories are true or false is very difficult. She and her parents both say this was something that they reported contemporaneously with the event. The whole, like, she could hear him in her mind thing is something that is reported later on. But this also is consistent with some of the things people were saying about Damien at the time. Because very much the kids in high school and the people in the community believe Damien Echols was basically a Satanist devil worshipper. He probably could control people's minds. Right. So they talked about this kind of stuff and the whole next victim thing. Seems like everybody in west Memphis thought they were the next victim. There was this whole story that Damian, he needed to kill, like, I forget how many people. Five, seven, nine people, something. If he killed that many people, he'd become a God. And, you know, they were going to be the next ones or these other people are going to be the next one. So you have to take a lot of this with a grain of salt. We're going to report on a lot of it. Just because it's in the file. We're not going to tell you everything. We're not going to give you every single story of somebody at the bowling alley or at the softball field who Damien appeared, turned into a bat and flew away or whatever. We're not going to do that. But we are going to share some of this with you just to give you an idea of sort of what the mentality was of people in the area at the time.

Alice (26:32)

Right. And to step away from this specific case. Whenever we see something horrific, especially when it's in our own community, we tend to internalize it and think about, you know, we're all, like, egotistical by nature. It's okay. It's just the way, like, society continues on is we want self preservation, is you naturally put yourself into, oh, my goodness, what if it was me? Or I had an interaction with him, or one time he said something to me, what if I was next? You know? So it's very natural for that to happen. But obviously, with such a highly publicized and highly graphic murder, you can see why a lot of these stories are coming out. And like Brett said, it might just be hard to suss out what's actually happening at the time. Versus looking back, once they know he's being accused of this crime, then playing things back with that sort of hindsight vision.

Brett (27:18)

And one thing that I think is difficult to overstate, but is often Understated is the just inherent violence of this society that these kids are growing up in the south, in the early 90s, in the rural areas, lower middle class areas, they were rough. There was a lot of domestic violence and there was just a lot of violence in general. And we're about to see one of those circumstances. March 12, 1993, Jesse Miskelly is accused of punching a 13 year old girl named Tiffany Allen, no relation to the detective, in the face at a park in West Memphis. Mescali had apparently bragged to his friends that he'd had sex with her. She denied it and slapped Jesse over the accusations. Jesse then went after her. She ran, he chased her down and assaulted her, including punching her in the face. This is the kind of thing, this is the kind of environment that all these people are embroiled in. And this is another sort of instance of violence in the history of some of the people who are involved in this crime. So on May 1, Jason traded some shirts with Kenny Newell for a knife and a mountain climbing pack. About a week later, according to Kenny, Jason sent his brother Matthew back to trade the knife back to Newell because in his brother's words, they're trying to blame him for using it or something. So this is what Kenny said this would have been couple days, three or four days after the murders. Take it for what it's worth. It's a report in the file. Okay, so now we are getting right up to the crime and we talk about some of the moments when you're studying these cases that you'd never heard before. They kind of slap you in the face. Some of them slap you in the face so hard that you're like, oh, my goodness, they did it. Right. I mean, there are some moments that are just. They're so crystallizing and clarifying. This one for me was really surprising because I had never heard it before. I mean, it's possible people talk about this, but they certainly don't focus on it. I'd never heard about it before, and it immediately struck me as such a critical moment in this case, and I was surprised people don't talk about it. So Tuesday, May 4, that would be the day before this murder occurs. Damian's mother. Now remember, Damien has been through it. His parents were married. They divorced when he was young. It really tore him up. He talks to his counselors about how difficult was for him, how emotional it was for him. He then gets thrown into this new family with Eccles, who he says is abusive to him and to his sister and you know, his mom is picking Jack Eccles over her kids. Very difficult situation. There's the whole move to Oregon, there's the move back, then there's Pamela and Eddie Jo Hutchinson. They get back together, which you would think, given how traumatic it was when they broke up, would have been a really important thing for Damien. Finally, maybe he's got some structure and stability. But on Tuesday, May 4, Damien's mother, Pamela and her husband Eddie Jo separated. Hutchinson had wanted his wife's ex husband, Jack Eccles, not to have anything to do with the children. Not too high and ask, I would think, but she would not accede to this demand. And so he decides he's going to leave. Damien was so upset that he cried throughout the day and the breakup. Pam stated that Eddie had abandoned them once before when Damien was young. And now it seemed like he was doing it again. By 9pm that night, Eddie was completely moved out. Now, Pamela would tell this story on the 12th of May, so only about eight days later, now, months later, once the alibi for Damien becomes important, once I think maybe she recognizes that this is problematic, suddenly the date changes. And she says that actually this separation happened on May 9. Now, this is a strange change in the story because the first time she told this was the 12th, only three days later. So it seems highly unlikely that she would mess up the date a mere three days after it happened, given how significant the event would be. And if you're thinking about sort of what causes people to commit crimes like the one we're going to talk about, this kind of jarring personal event is exactly the kind of trigger that you would look for. And apparently it is something that really bothered Damien and it is something that you almost never hear discussed.

Alice (32:00)

Yeah, I didn't know until we dove into this either. And especially this isn't just another breakup, just another fight. I mean, he's completely moved out by that night, which is a pretty serious step in terms of breaking up. So that brings us to Wednesday, May 5th. Obviously, we're going to go into a lot more detail of the timeline here.

Brett (32:19)

So I just want to make one point about this day. This day is the most difficult day because it's the day the crime is going to happen. The times are all over the place. This is all based essentially on eyewitness testimony. We talked about this before. Eyewitness testimony is often not very accurate when it comes to time. There will be conflicting times, there will be conflicting stories. We're going to tell you multiple times that things happen. We'll try and warn you when that happens. I acknowledge that will be difficult to follow. But we're just trying to give you what the various witnesses are saying. But just know none of these times are going to be exact. And so you got to give some on that. You cannot base your opinion on this case because somebody said Something happened at 5:30. You just can't. We're going to give you the best we can. I know it's going to be hard to follow, but we'll get there.

Alice (33:08)

That's a great preface on the times. We will say the times, but please take them with a grain of salt. You'll see as we go through how some of the times change. And as we've said many times before, eyewitness testimony is incredibly faulty because few of us have perfect internal clocks. And even as things are happening, we don't necessarily note the time until after the fact. And then you're looking at it in hindsight. That's why we try to peg it to things like TV shows or Sunset. But even that, you'll see, comes with faulty memory. So that morning, Damien's mom takes him to an appointment he has at the East Arkansas Mental Health Center. It's a standing appointment he has due to his prior struggles with mental illness. On the way home, she stops at the pharmacy to drop off a prescription for Damien that she will pick up the next morning. There is some debate about when exactly she picks up this prescription, but as you can see, this day is starting off basically as what we've seen for Damien for the past couple of years. Mental health help, mental help, problems needing prescriptions, this sort of thing. But that morning he has an appointment and is with his mom relatively early. Around 1pm, Damian's mom drops him off at Domini's, his girlfriend's. After Jason gets out of school, Damian wants to hang out with him. But Jason has to cut his uncle's grass, so they don't spend much time together. Jason, Domini and Damian go to the laundromat where Domini and Damian will get picked up at a later time. At 1:15, someone steals a car. It is the 665th criminal case open in West Memphis that year. This is going to be relevant here because a lot is going to be said about the case number that is assigned to this case. So in other words, the crime preceding this is the 665th case.

Brett (35:03)

Between 12 and 1:30, Jesse Ms. Gulley finishes his job at Woodlawn Roofing. He tells a friend he's going home to get a sandwich. That same friend will see him again at around 3:30 with his girlfriend, Susie Brewer. The last time this friend sees him is at 5:30. At that point, Jesse is alone. Another friend, Josh Darby, asked Jesse what he was going to do that night and he told him he was going home. Ricky Dees, who works at West Memphis Framing this roofing job or another roofing job, I guess, stops by Jesse's home around 1:30 to see if he can help him clean a job site. And this is sort of Jesse's deal. He's doing these odd jobs, he's helping out a lot of manual labor. That's how he makes money. He isn't going to school. His father tells him that Jesse is going to Stephanie Dollar's house and he's gone there to babysit because once again, that's another way he makes money, is he keeps people's kids. At 2:45, Pam Hobbs picks Stevie up from school slightly early. Never been entirely clear to me why she picked him up, she may have said in one of her interviews. Nevertheless, she picks him up at 12:45 and they walk home together. At 3:00, the school bell rings. Michael Moore walks back to his house that backs up to the school. Chris Byers is only a little further away. Stevie, as we said earlier, lives about a half mile away and he lives the farthest from the school. Michael goes home and changes into his Cub Scout uniform. His sister gives him permission to go over to Stevie. So typical day, nice May afternoon. This is the kind of day you're gonna go meet up with your friends, play around the neighborhood, and that's what they intend to do.

Alice (36:47)

So around 3.10pm, so shortly after school lets out, John Mark Byers, who's Chris's adoptive father, arrives home and he expects to see Chris. But Chris is not there. Sometime between 3:15 and 3:30, this is from a 2009 affidavit. Jamie Clark ballad will recall walking home with Ryan Clark, Chris Byers older brother. And as they arrived at home, Mark Byers was in the driveway telling Ryan to find his brother. Ryan Clark would tell police he got home at exactly 3:38pm so Chris isn't home when John is home. Around the same time, Michael Moore stops by the Hobbs household and asks if Stevie can come play. Initially Pam says no, but they eventually wear her down and she says yes. It's a decision that she says will haunt her. She told Stevie Branch if he isn't home by 4:30, he'd be grounded.

Brett (37:46)

And this is something to remember because she Tells him this, the 4:30 thing. He's not going to be home by 4:30 and he's almost certainly not deceased by 4:30. And this is something. There is one thing about this entire timeline that fascinates me is it seems like this crime happened pretty late, either in the afternoon or even the early night. And you've got these kids who are all supposed to be home. Now granted, look, kids are late all the time, but this is really late. Now, he didn't have a watch. And she talks about how she thought he did or she thought Michael had a watch or she thought somebody had a watch. And there's a little bit of confusion there. But the fact that none of the kids really make any effort to go home I think is interesting. It's one of those things that sort of. I wonder why that is.

Alice (38:34)

And I wonder if it was pretty commonplace. Right. Like the difference between 4:30 and 6:30 is sunset. Right. Even if you didn't have a watch, there's like a pretty big difference between pretty soon after school when it's still daylight and basically knowing that the sun is setting right wherever you are. And maybe this is something they do all the time. Maybe. I don't know. But I was taking note of this today when I was riding bikes with my seven year old at 4:30 and just thinking how, you know, if three hours later he still wasn't home, it would be, you know, beyond panic if he wasn't home in one hour, actually I'd be beyond panic. So I agree with you that this particular thing I'd always expected her to say he better be home by dinner time rather than 4:30, which is kind of on the early side for dinner time. But it's actually relatively early. And he clearly doesn't make it home by 4:30. And I think it's still very well playing at this time.

Brett (39:27)

I have a controversial theory that I'll share later on. Not now, you have to wait. Okay.

Alice (39:33)

What this case controversial? Never. Yeah, the only controversial thing you'll say.

Brett (39:38)

So at 3:30, more grain of salt stuff. In a questionable sighting, Kari Morris will claim to see Michael Moore walking down the road a couple of blocks ahead of Damien Echols, who is following him. Once again, this is sort of, you can imagine how this story develops, right. She says that Michael was going to get his bicycle to go trail riding with Stevie Branch. She would reaffirm this sighting in a 2018 Facebook post. So to this day, I mean, 2018's now seven years ago, but nevertheless, we'll say to this day. To this day, she sticks with this. Now, at the time she went to the police with this sighting, she was on the hook for a theft of property charge. So you can imagine how that would be useful to her. That charge was dismissed one month later. She didn't testify. And in 1996, she would actually catch a three year prison sentence for accessory after the fact when she helped hide bloody clothes after her husband stabbed another woman to death. So as incriminating as this sighting might be, and I have seen people who really grab onto this, it's like, see, he was already stalking them. Right. I think this lady's credibility, a lot of people in this case who have credibility issues, this lady's credibility issues are serious enough that I think we can dispense of this as a valid sighting altogether. And it also doesn't really fit with anything else in the timeline.

Alice (41:06)

Yeah, I mean, we have like, you know, Stevie's mom saying that Michael came to ask for Stevie to play and the two of them ran off together. So it'd be kind of strange for them to be separated at this point, too.

Brett (41:16)

Okay. So at around the same time, 3:30 to 3:45, Michelle Echols, who is Damien's sister, says that she and her parents pick up Damien and Domini from the laundromat. They drove Domini home and then went to pick up medicine for Damien from the pharmacy. The sort of eternal question of when they got medicine. Did they get it that day or do they get it the next day? This was at about 4:00, according to her. They arrived back home at around 5. Damien would talk to a girl named Jennifer Bearden, who we're going to discuss more later at this point. This, by the way, is inconsistent with the timing that Jennifer Bearden will share. As you'll see, it is also inconsistent with the story Damien and Jason will tell as they say that all three of them were together. And Michelle says Jason was not at the laundromat at one point. By the way, Michelle dated Jason for about a week and Jesse was known to hit on her unsuccessfully. So, you know, everybody's sort of connected in this case. This is one of those timing questions I don't have significant. It is, but where everybody's stories are different. So it's really hard to say when exactly were they at the laundromat? Yes, at some point. How many of them were there? I don't know. When they get picked up, Hard to say. But this is the kind of stuff you have to work through when you're looking at this story now. In one version of the story, the family goes to the pharmacy to pick up the prescription that day. In other tellings of the story, that didn't happen till the next day. Domini was dropped off at her place and Damien was home by 4. Which apparently is what we learn from Damien's dad, Joe. Now that might strike you as strange. Why would Joe know Joe? Pam just had this massive breakup where Joe moved out of the house. And this is, I really think when it comes to the family, and this is not that surprising, we got some unreliable narrators, somebody's unreliable, somebody is either misremembering or outright lying. And if it's true that Joe had moved out entirely the day before, I doubt he was hanging around at the house at 4 o'clock to confirm that Damian arrived home. But maybe he did.

Alice (43:29)

Once again, hard to say right now, around. Remember Ryan Clark who gave that affidavit? He remembers exactly when he got home and he says it was 3:38. Now at that time he'd been walking.

Brett (43:43)

With Jamie Clark Ballard. Ryan Clark was with Jamie Clark Ballard.

Alice (43:47)

So Ryan remembers all of these times because he said he had to be at court at 4 o'clock and his father wanted to know where his brother was. His father, John Mark Byers dropped him off at court where he testified in a traffic court about an accident he had witnessed and then went to pick up his mother who was at work. And then they were going to look for Chris at this point because they were all supposed to go out to eat at Shoney's which was the height.

Brett (44:13)

Of luxury in 1990. It really was love Shoney's, that like hot fudge brownie cake thing they had. I forget exactly what it was called that was so good.

Alice (44:23)

Chinese one where you like walk through like a cafeteria buffet style, right?

Brett (44:27)

Yeah, exactly. Well, you could, you could go back.

Alice (44:29)

As many times as you like wanted to, but it was like one of.

Brett (44:31)

The original sort of all you can eat buffet, but also had these great sandwiches, I mean just terrific sandwiches. And then that dessert, I forget exactly what it was called, but it was like this chocolate fudge ice cream brownie thing and it was so good. I haven't been to Shawnee's probably in 20 years, if that. Probably in 30 years, 40 years. I'm getting old. Anyway, sorry, sorry.

Alice (44:53)

Okay, so this is all relevant because they were looking for Chris because they had plans to go out to eat that night and here he is not around. And so they're driving around looking for Him. But along the way he's dropping off the brother to go testify in court. Picking up mom from work and now still looking for Chris around 3:30 to 4. Jennifer Bearden, she's sometimes referred to as Damien's second girlfriend. Just by the way, she's 12 years old at this time, which.

Brett (45:19)

Can we focus on that for a second?

Alice (45:20)

Yeah, let's focus on that. That is really young. That is like why does no one.

Brett (45:25)

Ever talk about this? This is, this is no one those.

Alice (45:27)

Things because it doesn't fit into the narrative of like, you know, he has.

Brett (45:31)

A pregnant girlfriend at the time, by the way, number one.

Alice (45:34)

Number two, he says he has a suicide pact with. Right, right. Or is that another girlfriend?

Brett (45:39)

Second girlfriend who's 12. I mean, I'm sorry, he was just.

Alice (45:44)

With his other girlfriend. He apparently he was with Dominique at the laundromat who he is impregnated and then he's on the phone with 12 year old girlfriend who's his other alibi. It's like, man, I mean he, I guess use all your girlfriends when you need alibis, I guess.

Brett (45:59)

And he's going to.

Alice (46:00)

And he's going to. So they're on the phone. Remember early in the conversation Damien tells Jennifer he's going to Jason's and to call him there, which she did. This would have been around 4:30, 30 or 5:00. After about five minutes Damien told her that he and Jason were going to go somewhere and to call him back around 8 o'clock. Damien also may have spoken to Holly George, a 13 year old girl who lived in Tennessee on a three way call with Jennifer.

Brett (46:32)

And by the way, this 12 and 13 year old, they're later on gonna sort of give Damien an alibi. And man, you listen to people, they talk about this 12 and 13 year old like their words are gold. If they said they were talking to Damien at 9 o'clock, they were talking to Damien at 9 o'clock and it's like they're 12 and they're 13 in this 18 year old predator, I mean let's just be clear, is preying on them. I mean whatever else is true about this case, this is entirely inappropriate. I mean I would say different time, but it's just 1993, it wasn't that long. 1500s. Yeah. So anyway, I just think it's, this is an aside, but I just think it's funny that you don't hear a lot of people talk about this very strange behavior from Damien.

Alice (47:13)

Right. So remember what's in our Timeline so far, school lets out around 3. Mark Byers goes home around 3:10 or so and doesn't see Chris. Around 3:30 it's reported that Chris Byers arrives at Stevie's house and Pam tells Chris that he's just missed Stevie and Michael, who remember had been begging to go play together. So they've just gone off and then Chris arrives. Amanda is watching Muppet Babies. That's why they know the approximate time. And Chris asks to stay and watch it and Pam agrees. The West Memphis Evening News TV schedule confirms that the Muppets was on from 3:30 to 4. So this time seems to be right from her memory. Also at 3:30, two boys are seen by R.L. fountain riding their bikes on North 14th Street. Presumably this would be Stevie and Michael.

Brett (48:06)

You can spend the rest of your life trying to figure out exactly where these three kids were during these hours. But it seems like two of them are together riding around sort of the north part of the neighborhood. And then Chris is watching Muppet Babies. So at around the same time, so the same sort of 3:30 to 4:00 time period. Ken Gover is driving a hitchhiker he picked up on I40. Gover said the man was intense and angry. He dropped him off at a convenience store near the Blue Beacon truck stop. Grover would later tell police about a tattoo on the man. On the forearm of his left arm. He had a 6 inch to 8 inch tattoo of a devil sitting on its haunches with three claws up on his hands. And the face, this is his description, looked like kind of dinosaur sitting there on his haunches with the three claws up like this. But he had the face of a traditional devil. Like you would draw a devil with a pointed chin and, you know, the horns and everything, it was horrible. He drew this for the police, by the way. So if you look it up, you can find it. This is the hitchhiker. You know, there are a lot of sort of alternative suspects we're going to spend a lot of time on, not going to spend much more time on this guy. But this is a guy that has attracted a lot of attention for people because he seemed like this sort of drifter guy, angry guy, maybe into devil worship. Who knows if you think that's part of the case. And he was dropped off in the area where these murders would be committed just a few hours later. So at 4:00 Muppet Babies ends and Chris leaves Stevie's house at 4:30. Kari Morris, she of the accessory to murder conviction, will say the Three boys came by her house to ask if her daughter Tiffany could go riding with them. Once again, this is unlikely because Chris is not with the other boys. Now, I will say this. There's another mystery that we will not unravel on this podcast about whether or not there was another boy, whether or not there was a fourth boy, maybe multiple fourth boys who were with either the three of them or two of them. Various points throughout this, you will hear people refer to seeing four boys or seeing three boys on bicycles when one of the boys, I think Chris, did not have a bicycle. That is something that's going to happen. And it is, once again, something that makes us very difficult to work out. But I just don't have a lot of faith in Kari Morris. So I'm going to say this probably didn't happen. She says another reason I don't think this happened because people love these close call stories. Whenever there's a tragedy, they love it. Like everybody is like, almost at the place where the terrible attack happened or whatever. You hear that a lot. And she does exactly that. You know, they asked Tiffany to come with her. Something could have happened to her, but she said no. As they were going to Memphis, she said as they left in her truck, the boys were sort of riding after them and she watched them as they drove away. And that was the last time she saw.

Alice (51:03)

And that is very like out of a movie. But yeah. So again, you have to take what she says with a grain of salt because of her credibility issues. Now at 4:30, Michael Thomas, who has a daughter in class with Michael Moore, sees two of the boys at 1202 Proctor Street. The boys say that they're going to their secret hideout behind Mayfair. At 4:30, Narlene Hollingsworth sees the boys on their bikes going away from their homes near Weaver School. They were going fast and pulled out in front of Narlene and she honked at them and told them to get out of the street. Narlene describes three boys, two smaller ones and a heavier boy wearing green shorts and black and white tennis shoes. And she reports that all three were on bikes. This is significant, like we noted, because Christopher didn't have a bike. And other sightings placed the boys a good bit away from Weaver. Again, this eyewitness testimony could be one of those close call situations, kind of like we saw with Tiffany. At 4:30, Jason's little brother Matthew tells the police that Jason left his house around this time to go cut his uncle's grass. It would have taken him about 30 minutes to make the walk to his uncle's house, putting him there around 5:00. And I believe his uncle lives in West Memphis.

Brett (52:23)

And at the same time, 4:30, his uncle Hubert Bartouche will tell police that Jason arrived at his house. So when did he actually get there? I don't know. This is sort of one of those things. You have Matthew saying he left at 4:30. You have the uncle saying he got there at 4:30, it's in the 4:00 hour, I think we can probably say that. So he arrived around 4:30 and he left around 6:30. And he says he remembers the time because Jeopardy. Was coming on when he arrived and Wheel of Fortune was coming on as he left. And man, you could set your clock by Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy. Back in the day, Jason told him he was going to Walmart to play video games. Jason was alone while he was at his uncle's. It seems like. And you remember this. This may seem like a contradiction because during other tellings of the story, Damien and Dahmi were there watching. And this is often what you'll hear, that they were there watching. But it seems like that probably happened a different time and not this time because Hubert doesn't remember them being there. And he seems to have a pretty good memory of everything that happened that night. So at 4:30, Terry Hobbs arrives home from work. He delivers ice cream, which seems like a pretty cool job to me.

Alice (53:39)

Good pun, good pun.

Brett (53:40)

So he delivers ice cream to stores for Memphis ice cream, sort of drives around the tri State area dropping off ice cream. And he asked Pam Hobbs where Frog Leg was. That was his nickname for Stevie. This goes all the way back, sort of an early event in their relationship when Stevie just jumped into the water as a baby and he said he looked just like a little frog swimming around in there. So he always called him frog leg. At 4:45, Pam and Terry ride by Michael Moore's house to see if Stevie is around. He wasn't and neither was Christopher. Pam had to go to work at Catfish island, which was a restaurant she worked at. Her shift started at 5.

Alice (54:21)

So around 4:30 to 5, Heather Cliet, who is maybe Jason Baldwin's girlfriend, tries to call him, but there's no answer. And she calls again at 6:15, but the line at this point is busy. The 90s, full of like call waiting.

Brett (54:38)

You know, that's another thing.

Alice (54:40)

So many movie plots wouldn't happen.

Brett (54:42)

This is an important thing to remember. A lot of people didn't even have phones. A lot of people didn't have call waiting. Voicemail would beep in. Yeah, voice. If you had one phone and somebody called, it was just busy. And so that we're going to see that happen a lot and actually becomes pretty important throughout this case right here.

Alice (54:58)

So 5:00, Catherine Fleming, who lives at Mayfair Apartments next to Robin Hood Hills, says she sees all three boys riding on their bikes. Again, remember, one of the boys, Chris, doesn't have a bike. 5:15, 8:24 holiday. Christy Blanchard saw two of the boys, one with a Scout T shirt and one with a white T shirt at approximately 5:15 on Wednesday riding bikes.

Brett (55:24)

This one's probably accurate, by the way, because the Scout T shirt is a very definitive thing.

Alice (55:29)

Distinctive.

Brett (55:30)

Yes, exactly.

Alice (55:31)

I'm actually surprised that more of the sightings so far don't mention it because it's one of the few distinctive things you can remember. Like three kids with three types of sneakers. I'm not going to remember what colors they are, but a Scout outfit would kind of stand out very much so. So I'm actually surprised that of all the sightings so far, this is the first time we hear the description with the Scout, which again may point to the previous sightings as not completely accurate or, you know, with the passage of time trying to fill in holes.

Brett (55:58)

I just want to point out we're about to get in a stretch of the timeline where like 10 different things all happen. At 5:30.

Alice (56:04)

I was going to say none of.

Brett (56:05)

Which can actually have happened or only one of which can happen.

Alice (56:08)

So the first 5:30 is about to happen. So before you at us, we recognize not all of these things could happen. And that's exactly the problem with trying to figure out the timeline on this day. So the first version of 5:30, Jeff Martens sees the boys heading down Goodwin towards Robin Hood. He says they waved at him and he describes it as one boy riding on his bike and another boy with two boys on the bike. He also says there was a boy walking and his mother will confirm that they saw four boys. The at least two kids sharing a bike would make sense in the sense that Chris didn't have a bike. But here again you have maybe four boys coming into the picture.

Brett (56:47)

This seems like such a valid sighting on the surface because of the two boys riding the one bike. Now you got the four boys. This is the mystery fourth person. But it maybe it happened later, once again times. Times. I mean, who knows what time it was, right? But this is what he says he saw. Okay, now at 5:30. Now we've mentioned Jamie Clark Ballard several times. I just want to note much of her recollection. All of her recollection comes from an affidavit she made 15 years later, very long time after this happened. She was not interviewed by police at the time. This is one of the weaknesses of the police investigation. They essentially interviewed a lot of people, sort of north and west. Jamie Clark Ballard lives further south. She lives down next to the Hobbs, basically. And everything that she's telling us is her recollection many years later. And she basically says, look, nobody ever asked me, so I never said. A lot of people don't believe her. There are a lot of holes that people punch in her story. We will talk about all that later, but just know for now we are just giving you sort of what people say they saw in that day. So Jamie Clark Ballard at 5:30, she will say in a 2009 affidavit that she saw the three boys playing in her large backyard. Ballard lived only three doors down from the Hobbs household, which puts them on the other side of the neighborhood from basically all the other sightings. If this is true, now, I will note one of the reasons all the other sightings put the kids in the north part is because that's where all the witnesses were interviewed. So maybe if you'd interviewed more people in the south, they would have seen the boys too. How accurate would those have been? I don't know. If you plot all this stuff on a map, she's going to be your outlier. But she's not alone. Her mother, Deborah Moyer, will say also in 2009 that around this time, between 5:30 and 6:30, she also saw three boys playing in the backyard. It could also be other boys. That's a possibility too. The backyard ran up to the bayou and did not have a fence. The bayou is that long canal, so she didn't like it when children played there. She was worried they'd get hurt. This is one of the reasons she remembers this, because it cost her anxiety. And she actually decided she was going to say something to the boys about this at the same time. Around 5:30, Terry Hobbs and his daughter Amanda start looking for Stevie. Remember, Terry has taken his wife. He has dropped her off at the Catfish Island. Amanda is younger than Stevie, so she can't really just be left alone. So if he's going to drive around and look for Stevie, he's going to need to do it with Amanda. And Stevie was supposed to be home by 4:30, so he's about an hour late. I don't think at this point, Terry is that concerned. But nevertheless, he's out looking for him. At the same time, at 5:30 at the same time, all this is happening all over the neighborhood. This did happen. John Mark Byers finds Chris riding his skateboard. And he's riding it in the street. It's very dangerous. He's told him not to do that, and he actually gives him a whipping with his belt for it. He then leaves Chris in the carport, which is like, you know, that sort of an overhang where you park your car outside, and tells him to clean it up. He says he'll be back after he picks up Ryan. So he's got. You remember Ryan's testifying in this whole court hearing. He's got to go pick him up. This absolutely happened. And this really makes you doubt basically every other sighting. We just talked about at least that they happened when we were told they happen. But when Byers returns, Christopher is not at home. And at this point, Byers realizes something is wrong. This seems strange to him because he's already punished Chris, and Chris is supposed to be doing this. And Chris is a rambunctious kid, often described as sort of very energetic and kind of random in his behavior. I think he was on some medication, some Ritalin for that. And the fact that he's not there, though, strikes buyers as strange because this is something that's obviously gonna get him in a lot of trouble. So he is concerned when he does not see him. Guys, I don't know if you've noticed, but these days it seems like you have to sign up for 37 different streaming services if you want to see all the shows people are watching. And what always happens to me is I then completely forget about it. I have no idea which streaming services I have and which ones I don't have. But what I do notice is my credit card bill every month, which seems so much higher than it should be. And that's why I'm really excited to talk to you guys about Rocket Money. 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Alice (62:00)

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Brett (62:42)

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Alice (64:03)

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Brett (65:47)

Like Alice said, Quinn's has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. I tell you what, when I travel these days, unfortunately it's usually for business. And I always need a good sports coat because I don't want to wear a suit everywhere I go. So I get sports coat. Got one from Quince. It is awesome. I love it. And by partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. So for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quince. Go to quince.com prosecutors for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.com prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. What do you have to lose? Go to quince.com prosecutors guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts and one of our favorite creators, Crossing the line with M. William Phelps. You know him as the New York Times best selling author of 46 books. He's an investigative journalist and winner of the Excellence in Investigative Journalism Award from the Society of Professional Journalists. And if there's one thing we need more of in true crime, it's people who actually understand how to research and chase A story. And he has absolutely done that. In fact, he consulted on the first season of the hit Showtime cable television series Dexter. And he is the executive producer, writer and co host of the number one Apple true crime podcast franchise, Paper Ghosts.

Alice (67:35)

And you guys, Phelps is the real deal. He didn't just glow in with the Wind when true crime became popular. He has been part of the true crime space for 25 years. He's consulted on over 350 hours of true crime television, executive produced documentaries, weekly series, and he's even written seven books about these true crime stories. He's a highly sought after expert and speaker for his extensive knowledge regarding historic and contemporary serial killers. Check out Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps weekly podcast and number one narrative podcast, Paper Ghosts from iHeartRadio, both executive produced, written and hosted by M. William Phelps. I mean, up to this point, remember, there are the three boys, four boys, three bikes, not bikes. But now that we have him basically across town from where all the other sightings were and he was on his skateboard, not with the other boys being whipped by, you know, his stepfather, you can see why all of these eyewitness testimonies, it's really hard to know what is right and not that any of these people are lying. People want to be helpful and they may have seen people. This is a neighborhood with lots of kids backing up to an elementary school. It wouldn't be surprising to me that these people all did see kids. Whether they were the three that we are interested in right now or not is another question. So sometime between 5:30 and 6, Deborah Otinger of 1309 Goodwin sees boys in her yard. Then they start heading to Robin Hood. During the same period, Kim Williams, a friend of Dawn's, sees Stevie and Michael, but not Chris, heading in the direction of Robin Hood Hill.

Brett (69:21)

And I think it's possible, by the way, that the two boys had gone into Robin Hood and come back out because you see this sort of, you know, multiple times. People are seeing kids sort of going into that area and it can't be the last time they went into that area because Chris is going to be seen with them later. So I wonder if there was a little bit of, you know, back and forth in and out of that woods.

Alice (69:43)

When they had mentioned earlier going to their secret fort behind Mayfair. Again, that's probably Robin Hood Hills. You can imagine if there were other boys with them and if they are sharing bikes or whatever and someone has to go home, maybe they all go and then maybe all leave to bring mystery boy home and in returning, pick up Chris or something along the lines. This is something I can see, especially if you have a secret for. And there's multiple of you people joining in, people leaving. There could be lots of reasons for going in and out. Now, between five and six, Terry Hobbs, who probably wasn't that worried about Stevie, goes over to David Jacoby's with his daughter Amanda to play guitar. This is in the midst of him kind of looking for Stevie. Now, Terry agrees that he went over, but he denies that he was there to play guitar.

Brett (70:33)

David Jacoby and Terry have had a little bit of falling out in the years after this. And so now Terry basically says he was concerned the whole time and looking for Stevie. And Jacoby's like, nah, man. He came over and playing guitar for a little while. And there are people who think that Terry Hobbs was involved. There are people who think that Jacoby was involved. There are people who think Terry Hobbs was involved, but not Jacoby. And we'll talk more about that later. But I will say this. I don't know that Terry Hobbs would have been that concerned at that point. So it wouldn't surprise me if he did just go over there and play guitar. But then maybe later on, once he knows what happened, he kind of feels bad about that. And so the story changes to, like, no, no, I was looking the whole time, right? I mean, who knows? But if you're trying to figure out where Terry Hobbs was, this is a. A moment in time that you can at least anchor something to.

Alice (71:20)

So at 5:45, Alan Bailey Jr. Tells police that he sees the boys and that Michael Moore tells him they are in a hurry. Stevie Branch was with Michael, but didn't say anything. They were on their way to pick up Chris Buyers. Bailey says both boys had their backpacks on and that Stevie was wearing red shorts with white shoes. This is a little strange as the missing persons report has Stevie wearing blue jeans. Moreover, no bags were ever found with the boys.

Brett (71:50)

And this is sort of a mystery, too. Did they have the bags or not? Tried to figure this out and couldn't really do it. And I don't know the answer to this. Like, I don't know if, for instance, their book bags were missing from their house. Certainly there were none found at the crime scene. Maybe you imagine if someone killed them, they would have taken them with them. And part of this is just a study in eyewitness testimony and how flawed it is, you know, and we can try and make heads or tails out of all of this, but it's hard to do that. This case is, to me, just absolutely fascinating. I don't know about the rest of you, but we got a lot more to go. The boys are going to be cited in various places several times. Jamie Clark Ballard is going to tell a story which is very incriminating of someone who is not the West Memphis three. And then we're going to talk about the search, how it intensified and the finding of the boys and what happened after that, the investigation, how police eventually settled on Damien, Jason and Jesse as being the people who are responsible for this case. We have barely scratched the surface here. We have so much more to talk about, but we want to hear your thoughts. Shoot us an email. Prosecutors podmail.com prosecutors pod for all your social media, join us on the gallery where the discussion is already going hot and heavy. And we're just recording the second episode. We're still like a month away from releasing it publicly, so. So if you want to hear these episodes early, if you'd like to watch us film them, or if you're just somebody who likes to listen to stuff without ads, you can join our Patreon. For as little as $3 a month, you can get every episode early and ad free. Alice, do you have time for a question or do you need to go?

Alice (73:45)

Let's do it. Let's do a question.

Brett (73:46)

Let's do it. Okay. Are you enjoying covering this case so far?

Alice (73:51)

I'm still nervous because when the timeline doesn't fit, it gets me very anxious. No, that's not how we're going to go about this case. There's so many, like, square holes, you know, circle pegs, whatever sort of things with this case.

Brett (74:08)

Oh, look, I will say this. This is. It's going to be the longest case we ever did.

Alice (74:13)

This shows you why eyewitness testimony is so faulty, Right? Because these boys are known to these people and they probably see them every single day. Whether they saw them this day. This is a lot like Lacy Pet in the sightings, right? I think everyone truly remembers these times and seeing them, except they all know each other and they are always boys playing outside that it's so difficult to pin down to what really happened that afternoon.

Brett (74:37)

My kingdom for more circumstantial evidence in this case. You know, people out there who want to say case is all circumstantial, man. Well, they want direct evidence. Well, you got it here. You got all the direct evidence in the world. Got witnesses left and right telling you what happened that day, but you got very little circumstantial Evidence that you can actually build some sort of solid timeline on.

Alice (74:59)

So all we have is the Muppet Babies so far. You know.

Brett (75:02)

Exactly the Muppets, which is not even.

Alice (75:03)

Helpful because Chris leaves.

Brett (75:05)

Yeah. And we're gonna have a few other things later on which may or may not be helpful, but unfortunately, they're all tied to people's recollection. So, hey, this is a study and that kind of problem with cases, but it is endlessly fascinating and it is more complex and more murky than any case we've ever done. Some of the other cases, and we did 14 episodes on Adnan Syed, and I'm still not sure how we got 14 episodes on that, because that case in comparison is so straightforward. Whereas this one, we are really going to have to dig into this if we find our way out to the other end. So, Speaking of Adnan, Zimray2 has a question. Zimray says, and this is a great question. Zimray, I don't want you. I'm not being critical of you at all. This is actually a really good question because in answering it, I think you'll understand how the same kind of evidence in two different cases can be wildly different. So Zimra says, in the Adnan case, you said the touch DNA found on Hay's shoes was insignificant. However, in the recent Moscow murders case, four college students killed in Moscow, the basis of the arrest of the main suspect, Brian Kohberger, was touched DNA on the knife sheath he allegedly left behind. Would you please explain why you believe touch DNA evidence is insignificant in the one case and yet is seemingly the total basis of the case against Brian Kohberger?

Alice (76:29)

Fantastic question. Really fantastic question. No, I think we can both tag team them because I think it's really easy to make broad statements like circumstantial evidence isn't trustworthy, or direct evidence is the best, or touch DNA never works. We never say touch DNA itself doesn't matter. Context is everything, just like every single case. That's truly why we love what we do. Right. There is not a single crime or a single case that we prosecute that's the exact same. There is no formula for this. So it's not that touch DNA itself doesn't matter. You have to look at the context. So because you are so good with Adnan, I'll let you do Adnan. The reason Bryan Kohberger matters is there was no reason for him to be in that house whatsoever. And it is on the nice sheath that ended up killing them on top of, I think one of the victim's bodies. So it places him there. A knife sheath is something that you hold, presumably, as you are unsheathing it in order to commit the murders with the murder weapon. Not, and I'll pass it on to you, the bottom of a shoe that often touches lots of DNA that was not even on the victim's body.

Brett (77:37)

Exactly. And one other thing I'll say about Kohberger, your question assumes a premise that is incorrect. It is not the only evidence against him. There's also cell phone evidence putting his vehicle and putting his cell phone and video of his vehicle in the area around the time of the murder. So you have cell phone evidence, putting him there, his vehicle, putting him there, and then his DNA in a place inside the apartment where it shouldn't be because he's no reason for him to have been in there. And, oh, by the way, the DNA is Alice has on the knife sheath. Let's compare that to what you have in Hae Min Lee's case. You have this pair of shoes, which was in the back seat of the car. The DNA is on the bottom of her shoe. So when you walk, the bottom of your feet touch the ground and pick up unknown amounts of DNA. The DNA is unknown DNA. Let's say there was Alonzo Sellers. Alonzo Sellers found her body and called the police. If there had been Alonzo Sellers DNA on the bottom of her shoes, that would be evidence. Because then you're like, much like the Bryan Kohberger case, why would he have ever touched her shoes? That would be your question. You don't have that. You have unknown touch DNA. Could be anybody's. Maybe it is the murderer, but it is as likely, if not far more likely, to be basically anyone in Baltimore or anyone that she's ever interacted with, or anyone in that school or a police officer. In fact, even her own DNA isn't on the shoes. So the fact that Adnan's isn't isn't significant. And we don't even know that she wore those shoes that day. They were found in the back of her car, not on her body, in the burial site. So you can see, as Alice said, it's not just, I mean, some branches of evidence you can basically throw out. You know, we're basically at the point where we throw out forensic odontology. Unless you think the West Memphis Three are innocent, in which case you're all about it, but we're basically the place where we throw that out. Right? But touch DNA, we're not throwing it all out. We are Saying it is weaker than other forms of DNA, it's weaker than blood, it's certainly weaker than like sperm DNA. That would be pretty significant. Right. But you have to think of the context and you have to place it in the context of the overall case. And when you do that, I think you can see pretty easily why there's a big distinction between those two locations.

Alice (80:01)

Of DNA and why that's such a good question. I think absolutely illustrates why we always joke that we're so long winded because none of these pieces of evidence or these theories fit into neat boxes. And that's why when you are fed like a one liner, you know, clickbait about a case, they're almost always wrong because it's really hard to describe these very complex, contextualized explanations for evidence in a heading that will grab people's attentions. So that is why it's such a good question and why we're so long winded. Because there's a lot to explain on these sorts of things. But I love that question. Way to think.

Brett (80:35)

Great question. Thanks for that question. And we're always happy to answer questions. If you leave a five star review, we will answer the question. You know, recently, Alice, we got one that was like, do we have like an unrequited love for each other or something? I don't know if you saw that.

Alice (80:50)

One, you guys, that's like five years late. That was rumor in year one. Get with the times. Now the rumors. Like, you know, how many times has he stolen my Clue award?

Brett (81:00)

Yeah. I mean, at this point, we got seven kids between us. I mean, and none of them are.

Alice (81:03)

You know, every time you say that though, I'm like, you're just feeding the rumors because they're like, y'all have seven kids.

Brett (81:09)

No, exactly. All right, well, thank y'all for joining us. Let us know what you think. And we will be back next week and many, many weeks afterwards with more on the West Memphis three. But until then, I'm Brett.

Alice (81:26)

And I'm Alice.

Brett (81:28)

And we are the Frost. Okay. You do look great tonight, by the way.

Alice (81:53)

Do I? I. Well, you guys complimented my hair. I I hair looks great.

Brett (81:58)

That jacket looks great.

Alice (82:00)

Well, this is because I have spit up on my shirt, so I had to cover it up before I came in here. You guys, there's a great answer for all of these compliments. Thanks. And my hair hasn't been brushed in a long time, but I'm finally going to get it cut tomorrow.

Brett (82:13)

That natural sheen.

Alice (82:14)

No, but I think the natural sheen means needs to be washed. Oh, yes.

Brett (83:25)

Are you good or do you need to.

Alice (83:30)

We'll see.

Brett (83:32)

See, I think it's these things that make the podcast all the sweeter, right? Because we can always listen. Years later, decades later, little Allison will listen to this podcast and hear himself crying in the background.

Alice (83:44)

Well, also know that typically this is Mr. Alice's cry for help. He brings the crying baby right outside the door. It's not like we have other rooms that.

Brett (84:24)

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Alice (84:48)

Oh my God, I love it.

Brett (84:50)

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