Alice (3:56)

Why waste your time? Because we have so many episodes to go.

Brett (3:59)

It's so true.

Alice (4:01)

I will have to say I feel a little bit. I'm not from Arkansas. Did you know that Mr. Alice actually lived in Arkansas?

Brett (4:07)

I didn't know that.

Alice (4:08)

So I don't know how to pronounce a lot of these places. Because you read about them, Right? Like, I read the files, I read the books, but I actually don't know how to pronounce a lot of the Arkansan names. And so I feel very self conscious here. I'm not going to lie because I'm meticulous.

Brett (4:23)

So if the people from Arkansas are Arkansans, why isn't Arkansas AR Kansas?

Alice (4:29)

I don't know that they're Arkansans, to be totally honest.

Brett (4:32)

They are. That's absolutely right. That's my riddle for the people of Arkansas.

Alice (4:36)

That is a good riddle. I. I don't know. I don't know.

Brett (4:39)

Or like we did that case in Texarkana.

Alice (4:42)

There you go.

Brett (4:43)

Anyway, okay. All right.

Alice (4:46)

Someone said, Mr. Alice needs to be a guest. Nobody can fit in this closet, you guys, because I am currently in a hobbit closet.

Brett (4:53)

Alice is in a brand new closet today.

Alice (4:56)

So I'm in a Harry Potter closet under the stairs.

Brett (5:01)

Yeah.

Alice (5:02)

All I have to say is maybe our trolls have a point when they say that we're not a big deal. Indeed, we are not. We try to stay as humble as.

Brett (5:10)

Possible when it comes to recording spaces. There's. There's no pride here.

Alice (5:16)

No pride.

Brett (5:17)

Alice and I said we're gonna dive right in, and here we are. But Alice keeps losing recording spaces to babies. Which I guess if you're going to lose a recording space, that's a good way to do it.

Alice (5:27)

And this also sounds like people who don't know who we are that I stick all my babies in closets instead of rooms. And I'm not gonna disabuse you of that notion. So with that, let's dive right into this.

Brett (5:38)

Let's dive in. So we've been talking about the timeline. We've gotten to the day of the murders, and we've been going through sort of everything that was happening that day and tracking the boys. And by the boys, I mean the 38 year olds throughout this Neighborhood as they are, they're playing together, they're playing separately. Sometimes you see two boys, sometimes you see three, sometimes you're gonna see four. And there are all these people who see the boys. They know the kids. There's no reason to think that they're not accurate, except for two things that I think are worth remembering. Number one, we're talking about times, and it's always hard when you're thinking back when something happened when it wasn't significant. We're talking about the most insignificant thing possible. Seeing some boys riding their bikes on a warm May evening that would not be important to you until a crime occurred.

Alice (6:30)

Especially in this particular neighborhood where there are lots of kids out. And there's every reason to believe, based on kind of these sightings, that the three of them, obviously they were together at some point, may have changed iterations of who was together with whom at what point in time. And it's a very tight timeline. So it's very possible that these people all saw some variation of these boys together with potentially other kids in the neighborhood. But if you're off by even 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes, it completely messes up the timeline as we are looking at it, which, if you are recalling any sort of time in the last even 24 hours, I can easily be off by much more than 30 minutes in just about everything. Especially something as nonchalant as seeing some kids run around in the neighborhood as they do every day.

Brett (7:16)

And that's the second important point. They do this every day. So we have to assume that some of these sightings are actually happening the day of the murders. And remember, yes, the police are going to start canvassing the neighborhood relatively soon, but. But it's still been a few days. And you have these people who are thinking back, they're racking their mind to try and remember things that might be helpful. And they want to be helpful and they want to remember. And there is a sort of psychological thing. We've talked about this before. Everyone likes being part of the story. They like to feel helpful. So if they saw the boys, say, the day before, they might transpose that onto this day. And that's going to affect our timeline. And that may be one reason you are seeing some of these sightings which seem impossible. They're all happening at the same time. They're on opposite sides of the neighborhood. How is that possible? With all that said, let's get back into the timeline. We ended last week with Alan Bailey Jr. In 5:45. His father, Otto Bailey Jr. Will confirm his Son's story. He says that he and his son see Stevie Branch and Michael Moore as they are backing out of their driveway to head to baseball practice. Otto says that he sees them as they are riding their bikes down the road towards Mayfair Apartments, which is over by where the bayou is and the forest is and everything else. He will also say, much like his son, that they were wearing backpacks, as we said last time. Unclear what this backpack reference is to. I think, and I will correct myself if I'm wrong later, and I'm sure someone will correct me as well, that Alan and Otto are the only people who say that the boys were wearing backpacks and backpacks weren't found later on when the bodies are recovered. So Otto Bailey will later be called in for telling another CB operator that he was going to kill him like the three boys were killed. Not a great thing to say. Now, apparently Otto was like an early troll, but he didn't do it on, you know, obviously there wasn't Twitter or chat rooms. If there were, that's where Otto would be today. But he was a CB troll, so he'd get on the CB radio and start trolling everybody else who's on the cb. This was a different world. I don't really know what to say about it. But he said this to another CB operator, and of course that person immediately turned around and told the police. The police were able to clear Otto, and they do note in their report that this was something Otto was known for, was running his mouth on the cb. To the extent. I mean, just to show you things don't change if you think that things are bad now with the trolls.

Alice (10:06)

Trolls be trolls.

Brett (10:07)

To the extent that he was once shot by another CB operator for something he had said. So there you go. This guy, he's a serious CB troll. In any event, Sheila Bailey, who was one of the other Baileys, will also confirm this sighting. So you have Otto, you've got Allen, and you've got Sheila, all saying they saw two of the boys together at 5:45. So I think even if we're not sure about the backpack bit, it seems pretty clear this is a legitimate siding.

Alice (10:41)

And again, a backpack is one of those things where maybe they remember seeing the boys with backpacks in the past and it just wasn't this time. So you're trying to put together all these memories. But I think you're right. Whether there are backpacks or not, that may be questionable. But the sighting, because Sheila Bailey also independently confirms the sighting probably happened.

Brett (10:59)

And this is one of Those sightings and we're starting to sort of gather momentum. So up until this point we're seeing sightings around, but they're maybe not fitting into a narrative, but we're starting to see more of that. It's six o'clock. So only 15 minutes later you have 15 year old Ben Crafton and he sees Stevie Branch and Michael Moore biking down the street. So the same two boys together on their bikes headed down the street. He also says that he sees Kim Williams, a fourth grader, riding her bike with them. He describes the boys as having a new red bike in an older green bike that looked like it had been painted several times. This is the kind of detail, and it's funny coming from a 15 year old. This is the kind of detail that's really helpful because Stevie indeed had a new red and black Renegade bike. I had a red and black renegade bike when I was a kid. So just another one of those similarities. I mean, these kids were just so much like everybody else growing up at this time. Michael, in fact had an older green bike. And I believe, and I haven't, haven't been able to confirm this and I'm not sure how important it is or not, but I believe Michael's bike was actually his sister's bike that had been repurposed for him. So I'm going to say that you guys out there can help confirm that for me if it's true. So he sees this and he sees Kim Williams. The police will speak to Kim Williams and she will confirm that she saw Stevie and Michael riding their bikes heading into Robin Hood Hills in the area thereof between about 5:30 and 6. So consistent with this timeline. And she will also see their bikes parked off of Goodwin, which connects to West McCauley at the entrance into Robin Hood Woods. And this goes back to something I said last week. I think there was some coming and going from these woods. At this point, there are only two boys. They're going in, it seems like they're going into the woods and their bikes are actually parked on the street. Their bikes will not later be found on the street. And it's unlikely that whoever murdered them would have gone out to the street to get those bikes and to bring them back to where they are found. So most likely if they did go into the woods at that point, they came out of the woods at around the same time, Kim is going to report seeing three older boys coming out. So she sort of sees the boys going in, she sees three older boys coming out of the woods. Now this May immediately spark your attention. Oh, three older boys, the West Memphis three. Well, if they are the actual West Memphis three, they're not the ones who were arrested. Two of them were black. Kim said she saw these boys go into one of the houses on Goodwin. Now Kim never saw Christopher Byers, which is consistent with what Ben Crafton said. The sighting is also somewhat consistent with Dana Moore's. We're going to talk about that in a second, though Dana would claim to have seen Chris Byers.

Alice (14:01)

So theme in this very convoluted slash kind of piece together feels like a patchwork quilt of a timeline because we're getting all these firsthand account witnesses is obviously we know there's going to be a gruesome murder of these three young boys. It's actually incredible that right before that happens, so many people see them. I mean, everyone from, you know, teenagers to fellow classmates to next door neighbors to adults. I mean, it feels like this is one of those like Leave it to Beaver type of shows where you're seeing an aerial view of this like neighborhood and everyone is just passing them. And we know that this timeline is going to be incredibly tight. But what really sticks out to me about this patchwork timeline, while they may not all be perfectly in line with what actually happened, what we know is a lot of people saw these boys. They were not kind of hiding away for hours on end and no one had seen them. They were going in and out. They were playing and they were being seen. They weren't hiding from anyone. And this just is, is devastating on so many levels. So we're to the 6:00 hour, kind of like the 5:00 hour. There's going to be a lot of sightings that overlap each other and the times can't all fit neatly because people misremember times. So at 6 o'clock, Jason Goebel sees two boys riding their bikes. Now, according to the three, Jason, Damien and Dominey Teer at 6 o'clock are being picked up at the laundromat by Damien's father. Damien walks home and Damien's father drives the other two, that being Jason and Dominique, home because they live, remember, in the same trailer park. The timing here is actually inconsistent with what Jason's uncle says who said that Jason did not leave his house until 6:30. It's also inconsistent with Damien's family story, which was that Damien and Domini were picked up at the laundromat, although it was closer to 3:30 or 4. So two to two and a half hours earlier than what they later say happened. And it's also inconsistent with the relationship with Eddie Jo Hutchinson, who moved out of the family home the day before. Remember when we had talked about, I think on episode one, that if there were to be a triggering event, if Damian is the one who killed these boys with others, we know that the day before these murders, his mom and dad who had been together, divorced, gotten back together, broken up on multiple occasions, they had another massive fight the night before these murders. And it wasn't just a blow up. It was so serious that Damian's father had actually moved his belongings out of the house. So if you've had such a big blow up, it's very interesting that Eddie now can say, oh, Damien was home at a certain time when he himself had moved out of the home. So you can see that even though their official story, the three of them's official story is at 6 o'clock they're being picked up at the laundromat. Their own other stories are inconsistent with this timeline. So I think it's fair to say that very likely the three of them are not being picked up at the laundromat at 6 o'clock because it's inconsistent with every other telling of their own stories as well.

Brett (17:21)

And this is one of the difficulties in this case. So much of this case hinges on who you believe and do you find people credible. And obviously you're trying to establish both the timeline of the three victims and the three accused. But especially as to the latter, there's so many conflicting stories. And as Alice said, so many of them involve Damien's father. Now look, just because he's moved out of the apartment doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't go pick them up in the laundromat. I guess, though it certainly seems unusual for what happened the day before to have happened. And now, as Alice said, he knows exactly when his son's home. And this comes up again and again. And it really is just one of those difficult things because so much of Damien's day includes his father in a way that just is strange. And you're going to see that as we go. I mean, the stories that are told to us about this day continue to be that his dad was there despite the fact he supposedly moved out of the house the day before.

Alice (18:21)

So also at 6:00, Dana Moore, Michael Moore's mother, is walking her dog when she sees Michael riding his bike. Stevie Branch was riding his bike with Michael and Christopher was holding on to the back of the bike. Michael was wearing his Boy Scouts uniform, as we now know, the blue pants, blue shirt, and the Boy Scout cap. And they're heading north on 14th street toward where it intersected with Goodwin, the entrance to Robin Hood Hills. Now, according to the testimony, sometime around this, while the sun is still out, and the sun is still out at 6:00 during this time, Dawn Moore, Michael's sister, is out riding her bike looking for the boys. She was near the entrance to Robin Hood when she saw three teenagers, one white, two black, coming out of the woods. They asked her, you want a shot? And she assumed they were referring to drugs. This was confirmed by a friend with dawn at the time, Kim Williams, who we talked about earlier. So dawn actually now questions the time that this happened, whether it was really 6 o'clock as she thought she remembered. Because according to dawn, despite Dana Moore's statements, Dana was not at home when Michael arrived from school. And it was Don who told Michael he could go out and play, not his mom. And she was near Robin Hood and she did see the teenagers. But she thinks now it was probably a bit earlier, before. Before the three of them would have been in the woods.

Brett (19:48)

And look, this is really important, obviously, because if the boys are already in the woods and the three are coming out, then they seem more like viable suspects. And I'll say this, I'll give credit where credit's due. Bob Ruff, in his coverage of this case, I actually think he nails this about who these kids are. I think he identifies them. There's some people who live down the street, almost certainly no way involved in this case. And his interview with Don really clears up a lot because Dana is telling the story that doesn't really make sense about when dawn is down there and when she's seeing the kids and when she's on her bike and when these three boys are coming out. And the timeline is really messed up. But with this sort of new information, it all makes more sense that this happened earlier, before the three boys would have even been together, certainly before the three boys would have gone into Robin Hood Hills. So I think we can say that this sighting, while initially intriguing, probably has nothing to do with the case. The shot thing is funny. You know, she was 10 years old. She had no idea what they were talking about. Obviously they're talking about a shot like, you want some whiskey or whatever, but, you know, she's 10, so her mind immediately goes to drugs. But I think with that sort of new information, the mysterious sighting of these three teenagers becomes a lot more clear. And Just isn't that important. It's one of those things we can kind of put to the side and move forward. Guys, if you listen to this podcast, you know that Alice and I both have young kids and I see the way they look at my phone. My daughter for Christmas, what did she want? She wanted a watch that does everything. And I knew exactly what she meant. She wanted a smartwatch. She wants a phone. She wants to be able to do what she sees daddy doing. But the thing she doesn't know is how dangerous the Internet can be and how many things there are that I don't want her to see. And that's where Gab comes in. With Gab, your kids can finally get a phone without all the risk. Gab is the leader in safe phones and watches for kids, teens and tweens. There are no social media apps, no Internet browser, and it has GPS tracking. Gab devices are built specifically to keep kids and teens safely connected.

Alice (22:07)

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Brett (24:13)

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So go to H I Y A H E a l t h.com prosecute and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults between 6 and 6:30. Cynthia Rico, she's driving by the woods. So she's driving, the woods are on her right and she sees what she will later describe as all three boys in the woods by the drainage ditch and she sees them in the tree line. So according to her, by sometime between 6 and 6:30 all three boys are together and they're sort of at the periphery of this forest. At 6:30, John Mark Byers will return home and he can't find Christopher. Remember he's left him there, he's supposed to be cleaning up the carport. He's not there at 6:30. Also in a continuation of this earlier story that we heard, Jamie Clark Ballard, remember Jamie Clark Ballard, she lives down sort of away from Chris Byers and away from Michael Moore near Stevie Branch. She lives I think basically right next to the Hobbs household. So she's in the southern part of the neighborhood. And she's telling this story that has the kids all down together in the southern part of the neighborhood when everybody else is seeing them somewhere else. So at around 6:30, she's leaving for Wednesday night church and she sees the three boys heading in the direction of the Hobbs house. She calls out to Christopher and she says, you need to go home. Remember, she knows his brother, so she knows his brother. So it would not be unusual for her as somebody who probably sees herself not necessarily as like an older sister, but you know how it is. If you had siblings and they were older than you and they had friends, their friends felt like they could boss you around too. That was my experience. At least I'm sure most of you have experienced that as well. She sees Christopher and she says, you need to go home. And he says that he doesn't have to do what she tells him to do. As this is happening and as the boys are heading by the Hobbs house, Terry Hobbs steps out. He's in the front yard and he's yelling at the boys to go home. I just want to pause here for a second because if this is true, this is a critical point in this story, if this is true, then Terry Hobbs is aware much earlier than he's ever said before of where the boys were, of the fact that they were all three together. And he has told them they need to go home. So he is interjected into the story earlier than you generally think. Now in a second, I'm going to get to why this story probably isn't true. So also at 6:30, though, Jamie's mom, Deborah Moyer, she's still in the kitchen. Remember, she. She didn't like the boys playing in the backyard because it butts the bayou, I guess, in some way. And she's just worried about kids being back there. And they're back there and she's going to say something to them. So the youth group is coming by at 6:30 to pick up Jamie to go to church. And she decides now she's gonna step out, she's gonna say something to the boys. But as she is about to do so, she sees one of them come out riding a bike while the other two boys are running behind this person. She also sees Terry Hobbs standing on the sidewalk telling the boys to go home. Now, she didn't really know Hobbs at the time, and in fact, she didn't even know his name, but she recognized him from the neighborhood. Now, both these statements, as I said, very important. If they happened two different people corroborating these stories. One, the daughter heading to church. One, the mom. Seems pretty powerful at first. But there's a problem. The police never spoke to either one of them about the incident. This is probably because the police did not really canvas this part of the neighborhood. They focused almost entirely on the northern side of the neighborhood. Closer to Robin Hood Hills, where all these sightings are happening. So they never really talked to anybody down there. This was a mistake. They should have canvassed the whole neighborhood, but they didn't. These stories come out 16 years later. So 16 years later, in 2009, these two people put out this affidavit making these statements. There are a few things in the affidavits that are demonstrably false. Those things are often pointed to by people as reasons not to believe them. I will say this. It had been 16 years. So it doesn't surprise me that there are some inconsistencies. But I think the biggest problem here Is something we talked about earlier. I don't necessarily think that Jamie Clark Ballard and Deborah Moyer are lying. But what I do think is very possible. Is that at some point on a Wednesday around this time. The boys were playing in their backyard. And they were riding their bikes. And Terry Hobbs did tell them they needed to go home. And that very easily could have happened at some other time. And then years later, when they're thinking back on this. They're thinking it happened on the day of the murders. Now, they will say that they talked about this. Yeah, it had been 16 years. But they had discussed it over the years. And that may very well be true. But I don't think it necessarily means that this happened on that day. And particularly given that it is so out of whack. With everything else we've heard about where the boys were and when they were together. It is very hard to believe this statement. Even if it is consistent with some of the alternative theories. That maybe Terry Hopps was involved in the murders.

Alice (30:49)

Yeah, I think the fact that there's so many sightings. Placing the boys closer to Robin Hood Hills. You begin to doubt kind of the two of them. And the fact that two of them remember it is less powerful. Because they're mother and daughter. Meaning that they would kind of be talking about it. And maybe form each other's memories of it. Especially if we're talking 16 years later. And the fact that the boys did play here all the time. The three boys played together all the time. And this is one of their neighbors. This is the Hobbs neighbor. It makes complete sense that they would often see these three boys. Many times you have Jamie saying something as commonplaces, you better listen to me, it's time to get home. She's probably said that to him on many occasions. That's why he so flippantly says back, you can't tell me what to do. Again, a lot of familiarity there. Familiarity meaning they've probably seen each other with this exact scene play out multiple times. At 6:30, Jeff Martins sees all three boys on bikes heading towards the Robin Hood area. So moving away from what Deborah and Jamie are saying, which is a different part of the neighborhood. Now the sightings are back up to the Robin Hood area. So there's some confusion in Jeff Martin's statement because in another statement Martin says he saw the boys at 5:30 and he also said there may have been four boys. So take it for what it is. Now between 6:30 and 6:45, Brian Woody sees four boys with two bicycles going into Robin Hood Hills at 6:30. Charles Ashley Jr. That's Jesse's cousin, says that he and Jesse were at his house when Connie Mulder slapped Cody Dollar. Stephanie Dollar called the police and three patrol cars responded. The time of 6:30 is confirmed by the police report. Jesse then left the Dollars home and Charles didn't see him again that evening. Ashley told police that Jason Baldwin and Jesse Misskelley, quote, stayed together a lot. So we'll discuss the slapping in detail later because this is obviously going to be very important for purposes of the timeline. Sometime between 3:30 and 6:30, Susie Brewer tells the police that she was with Jesse Misskelley at Stephanie dollars from 3:30 to 7:10 or 7:20 when Jesse said he was going to Dyess to wrestle. Now Susie's timeline is probably off because most everyone agrees that the cops showed up well before this time. 7:10, 7:20. And in fact the police report confirms that it's sometime before 7:00. While Susie has always said that Jesse left Stephanie's after seven, that's a little bit too late. Based on the other corroborating testimony we have, the police officer on the scene reported that he knows Jesse and he would recognize him. But despite knowing who Jesse is, he did not see Jesse on the scene. So Stephanie reported that she did see him standing next to the police car at 6:30. Stephanie said she spoke with Jesse and he told her he was going to dies to wrestle. So we'll talk about dies in detail later. But you can see how it appears that there was a slapping event. Not appears, there was a, there was an event where the police were called. We know for a fact that the police were called to the Dollar's home. We know that the police have police report stating it's 6:30. That all seems to be pretty clear. Sure, maybe there was a typo, maybe they got the time off by a little bit. But we know that there was a, there was a police event. We also know likely that Jesse was at the home at some point that day. The big question that is not answered by the police report or by the testimony necessarily because there's contradictory information is whether by the time the police showed up at 6:30 whether Jesse was still there. This is obviously going to be important because the 6:30 hour or so we have a lot of sightings of the boys going into Robin Hood Hills, probably never to come back out again. So the fact that the police do know who Jesse Misskelley is and you know, this is a small town, they get called on these boys all the time. They know who he is. The fact that they wouldn't remember seeing him is pretty significant because he's not just some random guy that they've never seen before. It wasn't so chaotic. You would think that the police, if they know Jesse would remember Jesse standing by their car or even talking to them as some of the testimony claims happened. But if they don't remember, it doesn't mean he wasn't there. But it's a lot harder to understand whether he was still there by 6:30.

Brett (35:37)

There's a few interesting things Alice mentioned in that little chunk. Number one, we have several people seeing the boys going into Robin Hood Hills. We have yet another sighting of four boys going into Robin Hood Hills which is interesting. And then we have the legendary moment when Connie Mulder slaps Cody Dollar. And this is one of those things that I feel like, as I said, this case is just so funny because I relate to it so much. And I can just imagine how some grown woman slapping the son of another woman would be, would be a big deal and would be something that everybody would be talking about. Stephanie Dollar and her husband are confronting the molders. Her husband and Connie Mulder's husband are about to get in a rumble. The police are being called. They originally go to Stephanie Dollars but they're not at Stephanie Dollars so they have to come down here and find him. The people who believe that Jesse Misskelley is innocent will tell you that the police officer just lying. And I think there is something telling about that though because I think it acknowledges the fact that these police officers should have recognized Jesse. Jesse and his dad got into trouble a lot. It would be not that surprising that the police know them now. The police are not focused on Jesse. This is something I feel like people miss. They're focused on the event going on in front of them. And yes, they testify about this and they testify about generally the people who are around, but it's not that surprising that they might not notice someone who is not actually involved in the event. Happens all the time. But one thing I think you can see here is how narrow this timeline is getting because we're getting to a point we don't know exactly when the boys are murdered. We don't have an exact time of death. Don't email me and ask whether or not the ME did a time of death thing. One the biggest red herrings in all of true crime and the CSI effect to the max is this notion that you can figure out when somebody died. It's very difficult, particularly when they're not found until much later, particularly when they have been in the water for basically 18 hours, which is what happens in this case. The ME is eventually going to give a time of death, which makes no sense. The time of death he gives makes no sense whatsoever. We'll talk about that later. But I think it is pretty safe to say that by, I'll say nine, just to be safe, that by 9:00 this murder has been completed. And whether or not the COVID up is completed at that point or not, we can talk about more later. But I think by 9 o'clock the murder would have happened. And we're already getting into this 6:00, 7:00 hour when we have things that we know happened. I mean in trial, the prosecution is going to talk about how the police were, they were in this area all the time, they were in the trailer park all the time. That's true. But this event is sort of striking, no pun intended, because once again you have a grown woman slapping a boy, right? The police are called, everybody's gathered around, this is the kind of thing you would remember that would stand out to you. So I just think it's interesting when you start thinking about this timeline, about how tight it is getting if the West Memphis three are the people who committed this murder. And this is, this is another, this is another big event which we're going to talk in depth about later. So between, I'm going to say 6 and 6, 40, because it's a little unclear when this happened. Michelle Echols will say that the whole family, dad Mom, Michelle and Damien, they leave their house and they go over to a friend's house. They will stay there for around 30 minutes. The daughter of the family will answer the door. But her parents weren't home. Basically, earlier in the day, this family, who, like I said, we're going to talk about extensively later on, there was some discussion about the echoes coming over. They were best friends. They went over there all the time. They go over there. Michelle remembers this because while her mom is writing a note, she sits down to watch 90210 cultural phenomenon. One of the biggest things going on in 1993, the kind of thing that might be an anchor for your memory now, 90210 began at 7:00. So if she is watching it, that means. And if this is true, and if this happened on this day, then Damien's time is now accounted for up through 7:00. Now, some point after 90210 ends, they leave and they go back home. Michelle will say that she then watched Melrose Place. So we've got both the, like, mega hits of the early 90s coming into play in this case. So 921o was on when they left. Later on, she's gonna watch Melrose Place, which came on right after 90210. She will say that Damien was around. He was on the phone till around 10:30 that night. And she will say that he taught to Holly George and Jennifer Bearden, who are the two girls that we mentioned earlier. At some point thereafter, he talked to Jason Baldwin. And we are going to go into a lot of detail about this alibi and everyone's alibis later on. If you believe Damien, his day sort of ends with them all going over to see this family going home. And then he gets on the phone.

Alice (41:08)

And this isn't necessarily a deal breaker, but note again how interesting it is. It's not impossible, and it doesn't necessarily change his alibi whether his dad is there or not. But in this telling of what's happening, the whole family is together, but presumably his dad had just moved out after a massive breakup fight the night before. So, again, whether his dad is there or not doesn't necessarily impact whether Damien is there. But that's just an interesting kind of tidbit to whether this is really as it happened and whether this is the same day as well.

Brett (41:40)

And that's an excellent point. Once again, we have dad here, and if dad just moved out the day before, is he really heading over to visit some family friends on this day or could this have happened on a different day? And we'll talk about why. There's reason to believe that indeed this may have occurred on a different day. Okay, so it's 7:00. Dana Moore is now very concerned about Michael. She actually goes out into the neighborhood looking for him. He should have been home by then. She ends up at Pam Hobbs home because she's going to see is he there with one of his friends. And at some point, and this is also a little unclear, she will speak to Terry Hobbs. At some point after this happens, there's going to be an interaction with her and Terry. Terry Hobbs, his whereabouts are really hard to nail down because nobody ever talked to him. If you want to criticize the West Memphis police, there are several areas where you could criticize them. But one that is just glaring is the fact that they really never sat down with these parents and nailed down exactly where they were. They treated them very much as victims, which I understand. I mean, this is a horrific incident, but everyone knows that in a crime like this, you start with the people closest to the victims and you work your way out. And what they should have been doing is nailing down where everybody was that night so that they could definitively exclude these people as suspects. They really didn't do that with Terry. The first time Terry really sits down and talks to the police is over a decade later. So unfortunately, we have reports, we have testimony that Terry is there at some point, that she speak, he speaks to Dana at some point. We know at some point, as we're going to talk about in a second, he enter, he has an interaction with John Mark Byers. We know all that happens, but the exact timeframe when it's happening is very difficult to say. Okay, it's 7:00. We're starting to get the last sightings of the boys. Christopher Wall sees Chris Byers and at least one of the other boys headed towards Robin Hood. At this point, all three were definitely together. So if this sighting is accurate, he probably just missed one of them. Remember, only two of the boys had bikes, so it's possible he just didn't see the third boy. Now, a few days after the murders, an anonymous caller would tell police that Wall liked to hang around young kids and he was actually brought in for questioning. Now, he would pass a polygraph, ended up having a solid alibi, as I recall. I think he sees the kids as he's either going to school or going to work. I don't remember exactly what it is, but they're able to account for him after this. So that potential lead falls away. You can see why they're interested in it because he's one of the last people to say he sees the boys. And then they get this tip. And we know that can be something that killers do. They put themselves in sort of the heroic position of seeing the boys or finding the body, something like that. So they looked into him, but he is cleared.

Alice (44:52)

So we're moving into the timeline. It's getting a little later. 7:00, Garrett, Schwarting, he's a ninth grader, will tell police that he went to Jason's at 7, 7:30 and 8 to get a shirt. Three different times. He's not misremembering times. And this is a shirt that Jason had borrowed from him. Jason was there all three times. And the third time Garrett stays and they play Street Fighter 2 on the Super Nintendo until 9:00.

Brett (45:22)

Love Street Fighter 2, by the way.

Alice (45:24)

This is. This really is like going Back to the 90s, man. Childhood. It really is.

Brett (45:28)

This day is pure 90s.

Alice (45:30)

It is pure 90s. Now, Garrett's story here is highly questionable. Obviously you understand the importance of this. If this is correct, he's basically putting Jason at Jason's home throughout the entire time where this murder likely happened. From 7 all the way until 9, he's stopping in 7, 7:38. That's not enough time in each of those iterations for Jason to leave and commit this murder. Right? And then he's staying there playing Street Fighter 2 all the way until 9:00. And like Brett said, being incredibly conservative, the murders would have been completed by nine. Now, the reason his story is highly questionable is when he was initially questioned by the police, he actually said he didn't remember seeing Jason at all that night. Then after talking to Jason's brother several times, all of a sudden, Garrett now recalls that he was at Jason's house during all those times, all the way until 9pm Garrett later will tell police he was not good with dates and he would eventually recant his statement completely, saying that the events he described actually occurred on Thursday, not the day in question. Again, you can see how, whether nefarious or not, he probably did go over to Jason's house at some point to get a shirt that had been borrowed. He probably did play Street Fighter 2 on multiple occasions, even with Jason. So what we have to go back to is the closest in time that to the murders that he was questioned. His first memory was, I didn't see Jason that day. And later it's changed after speaking with someone who has an interest in Jason probably having a story or an alibi here. So take his statement for whatever it is, except that he does recant it. And now he says that these events just didn't happen on the day in question. Now, many years later, John Mark Byers will claim to have seen Terry Hobbs outside of Robin Hood Hill's yelling for his son at 7:00. This is obviously significant because we have the boys going into the woods at 7 o'clock and now we have one of the fathers saying the stepfather of Stevie is yelling for the boys. He didn't say this at the time, though.

Brett (47:45)

It's hard for me to express how little I believe this. Whatever the truth is of this case, John Mark Byers, if you've seen Paradise Lost, you've seen what he's like, you've seen how dramatic he is. This is, as Alice said, this is something that he says decades later when he's completely changed his view on the case and he's decided that Terry Hobbs is involved, all of a sudden he recalls this critical moment, the murders would happen, where Terry Hobbs is essentially at the scene. It's highly unlikely.

Alice (48:15)

The first thing you would say, right, is to go to the father of another boy that your son is hanging out with and be like, you last saw them at 7:00. Or you would tell police that before the boys were found to say, well, I saw the stepfather standing right there yelling for them. They got to be in there. He was the last one to see him, go talk to him. None of that happened at the time. And so, yeah, this is a very suspect memory because it certainly wasn't stated at the time. Now at 7:30, John Mark Byers, who has been doing loops around the neighborhood looking for his son, sees a police officer at a dollar store and tells him that he can't find his son. The officer tells John Mark Byers to give it up a little bit of time, give it till 8 o'clock and see if the boy turns up. If he doesn't, the police say at that point, why don't you call it in, we'll do something about it. Then Melissa Byers and Ryan, her other son, are looking around the neighborhood for Chris. Alternatively, they were with John Mark Byers in the vehicle. And the reason we don't know if they're separated looking for them or together in the same car looking is because these stories are unclear and murky about when they were in the car together and when they weren't as well as when they were together and when they split up. It's as clear as mud that, I mean, that really is what it is.

Brett (49:30)

I don't find that to be that unusual, but it's just a little unclear where everybody was. And that's unfortunate because John Mark Byers, much like Terry Hobbs, is going to attract a lot of attention as a possible person who was involved in this crime. Now, he attracted attention a lot earlier than Terry Hobbs. He was a very early alternative suspect by people who believe The West Memphis Three are innocent. So between seven and eight. So we've got Damien's watching 90210 and Melrose Place. Jason's playing Street Fighter 2. Jesse, between seven and eight, supposedly arrives at Dyess, Arkansas to wrestle. Dyess is about 45 minutes from West Memphis. Others in the wrestling group would report that Jesse was playing around and having a good time that night, including bumping his head pretty hard in a stunt gone wrong. As this is wrestling, you know, they're practicing to be in the WWE one day. At the time it was wwf. I missed that. And so whether this happened that night or not is going to be something that is debated. When we talk about the alibis for all three, we will discuss this in detail. But if all of them are telling the truth, and if Shorting's telling the truth, then all of their time is accounted for. If you believe these three stories, then they do have alibis, not just for around the time this happened, but for the time the crimes would be occurring.

Alice (50:57)

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Brett (51:13)

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Alice (52:13)

And you guys, Phelps is the real deal. He didn't just glow in with the Wind when true crime became popular. He has been part of the true crime space for 25 years. He's consulted on over 350 hours of true crime television, executive produced documentaries, weekly series, and he's even written seven books about these true crime stories. He's a highly sought after expert and speaker for his extensive knowledge regarding historic and contemporary serial killers. Check out Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps weekly podcast and number one narrative podcast paper Ghosts from iHeartRadio, both executive produced, written and hosted by m. William Phelps homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home.

Brett (53:22)

And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in one place. Homes.com we've done your homework. So at 7:49 the sun sets and the full moon has already risen. The day had a high of 73 and a low of 59, which is cool for May in Arkansas, but a really nice day. The golden hour or the blue hour begins. So this is something that's always important to note because people often tie things to sunset. Because unlike the actual time, that is something that you remember a little bit better. But what sunset means is different for everyone. We talked about this in the Adnan Syed case. You can point to, well, this is Civil Twilight. So when he says sunset, sunset he must mean that. But in reality it's not going to be dark in West Memphis, like truly dark until 8:30 or so. So what sunset means is a little difficult to say. But officially sunsets at 7:49 and then you got another hour or so of daylight before the sun finally sets fully.

Alice (54:53)

I will say. And this comes up when we interview people too. When we say sunset, we always have to like pin down just in kind of the interviews I've done with people, I would say that most people don't recognize when the sun begins to set because it's still incredibly bright. When people think of like the sun setting into the horizon, it's usually halfway through this blue hour that we're talking about when we try to pin them down because typically people will say, oh, it was completely dark at the time if it's when it's completely dark. Or they're noting sunset to be sometime after the sun has begun to set. But when you look at say your weather app and it says sunset at 7:49, that's when the sun begins to descend. Not. But you may not even be able to tell the difference between pre sunset and as it's setting. And this is really, really important, obviously, because especially in the summertime, not quite summer, but late spring, soon to be summertime, the sun is out longer as well. And so if you get this off even by a couple of weeks, the daylight hour shifts pretty quickly around this time.

Brett (55:56)

So at 8:00, John Mark Byers returns home. Remember he's been doing these loops, he talked to the police. At 7:30 he now goes home. At this point, the sun is set, it is starting to get dark and it will be dark soon. So he calls the police and he reports Chris missing. This has actually been held against him in future years. Like why is he so worried? Why is he calling the police? He must know something. Recall he spoke to a police officer. The police officer told him to call the police at 8. I don't find this unusual at all. As a parent, I don't find this unusual at all. I think it's a little unusual that people think it's unusual. So. But nevertheless, he is calling to let the police know that Christopher is missing. Now at this point, John Mark Byers, he only knows that his son is missing. But right around then, Dana Moore knocks on his door and she tells him that Chris is actually with Stevie Branch and Michael Moore. Now you remember she saw them together at some point and she tells him that she did see them on their bikes. They walk down the road in a little bit of a direction towards Robin Hood Hills. And I always find this, to me, this is kind of a chilling moment in this case because they're walking down the road and there on the side of the road is Chris's skateboard, the same skateboard he was riding in the street when he got in trouble. Earlier on, it seems like he rode that skateboard a little bit down the street and then at that point made the transition onto the back of one of the boys bikes. And there's a couple things I think are worth pointing out at this point. We always talk about how important the timelines are. I think we can say just based on the timeline that John Mark Byers had nothing to do with this. John Maris is going to be a suspect, an alternative suspect. It is impossible for him to have done this. Remember, the last sighting of the boys is around 7:00. We know he is driving around looking for his son at that time. And in fact at 7:30 he's talking to a cop. So you would have to believe that essentially people see the kids going into the woods at 7, somehow he gets into the woods, kills them, does all the things we're going to talk about later on he would have to do, hides the bodies, leaves, and then goes and talks to a police officer without.

Alice (58:14)

Changing, changing clothes, I was going to say, without mud or water or blood on him.

Brett (58:19)

And then 30 minutes later he's calling the police. So even if you think, okay, fine, he talked to the cops first and then he found him, well, once again you have the same problem. The timing issue immediately appears that there's really no way he could have pulled this off. And what is amazing about this case is you will hear so often about the rush to judgment on the West Memphis Three and how it was a witch hunt and they were attacked because of how they looked and how they acted and all this other stuff. And yet the same people making that argument, the makers of Paradise Lost, the author of the Devil's Not a Book that is often presented as this wonderful work of journalism, demonize John Mark Byers for the same reason, without apparently doing even the basic research that if you had done, you would see he really couldn't have done this. It's basically impossible for John Mark Byers to have pulled this off. I'm willing to say it is impossible for him to have pulled this off now because John Mark Byers will later have a change of heart and will decide that the West Memphis Three are innocent. All the people who used to say he's guilty now say he's innocent. But they say he's innocent because he supports the people that they like. I'm saying he's innocent because the evidence indicates that there's really no way he could have done this. So I think we're going to talk more about John Mark Byers as we go but maybe not as much as you would expect because it just feels like he's a sideshow. He was very much a sideshow in the documentaries, but he's not responsible for whatever happened. Okay, well, now that we've exonerated John Mark Byers from any responsibility in this crime, we're gonna go ahead and stop for today. We talked about a lot of stuff today, a lot of things that happened, a lot of things that are really important. And we came to some conclusions on John Mark Byers, on Jamie Clark Ballard, several things that happened. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Shoot us an email prosecutors podmail.com@ ProsecutorsPod for all your social media. If you want to watch us record these episodes, you can join Patreon. If you don't want to watch us record them, but you want to get them early and ad free, you can join Patreon. And for as little as $3 a month, you can do that. Join the gallery where the discussion on this case is going hot and heavy. We have so much more to talk about. We're only three episodes into this. As I said, we are taking our time. I hope you're enjoying this deep dive. It is going to be a deep dive. I do think it is worth your time and I'm enjoying covering this case. But I'm excited to get to the end just because I really want to know what you guys think about all this. So hopefully you will stay in touch with us and talk to us about this case, engage with us on this case. And if you know things or if you're someone out there who somehow was involved in this, we would like to talk to you. We have reached out to a lot of people who were in the area at the time with some limited success, and I want to talk to more of them. So if you're hearing this live and you have something to say, please shoot us an email. We can talk to you. Happy to do it anonymously if you have information. We want to learn as much about this case as possible.

Alice (61:31)

Yeah, one thing I'll just end with here. I know we're only three episodes in so far, but this is obviously a very famous case, a case that documentaries are made of that books are written about, that you probably, even if you don't know a lot about the facts of the case, you've heard West Memphis three. But as we break down this timeline, something that is becoming so apparent to me that doesn't necessarily come through in documentaries or other coverage is how this night was like any other Night. There was absolutely nothing special about this night. It was a regular school day. Boys who like to play together, they didn't even really plan to play together, right? They just always played together. They find each other, whether they're riding their skateboard or hopping on someone's bike. This is not some planned play date. I think we live in a very scheduled world right now where we know we're gonna have a play date for our kids in X number of days. This is not one of those things. This was a spontaneous, commonplace afternoon going into the evening. And the timeline is so incredibly tight. And there are so many people who see this going on, whether it's this day or another day, because this is the type of night it is. Everyone's out and about. There are no cell phones. People are not on Twitter. They're not stuck in front of their computers. If they're in front of the tv, they're watching something that the rest of the country's watching, like Melrose Place or 90210. This is a very community oriented type of night, which is in some ways so much more devastating to me because there were lots of eyes on these boys, intentionally or not. This is kind of those soft touches, right? Lots of neighbors are able to see your boys. They're all together. Nothing bad could happen. And obviously we know the worst possible thing is about to happen. And we're not talking about, you know, this day and age when everyone's holed up inside and no one knows their neighbors. Everyone knows each other, they know their names, or at least they've seen each other. And yet this still happens. And it's just a highlight on how quickly tragedy can strike. And you truly have absolutely no forewarning.

Brett (63:31)

Now, this is a hugger kids type case. There's no question about that. And the other thing, the thing that just continuously amazes me, we're looking at a picture right now of Ariel. Picture, I think this is from the beginning of Paradise Lost. And it's a photograph interstate. And then you see the truck stop and you see the woods and where this happened. And we've said this before, but I'm just going to keep saying it. Where this happened was just such a small area. The parking lot for the truck stop is at least five times as big as these woods. I mean, these are not woods. These are. This is like a football field. It's a football field. Yeah, to block out the sound. I mean, that's really all it is. And yet this horrific murder happened. I mean, within you could see the Mayfair Apartments. You could hear the interstate. You could walk 20 yards and be at Blue Beacon Truck Wash. Just an astonishing crime and one that happened so quickly. And yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm with Alice. This is one, this is a very interesting case. It's a great case. People love this case, but wow, it's the one that makes you, makes you take a step back. So on that depressing note, Alice, do you want to answer a question or do you need to go, let's do it?

Alice (64:49)

No, let's answer your question.

Brett (64:51)

Alice is in the middle of sleep training. So every episode is a little, you never know.

Alice (64:55)

No, no. We are now in the age where it's much more predictable because those of you who've been with us before, West Memphis three know how unpredictable my recording was. Hence the need for sleep training.

Brett (65:08)

There you go. Everything's lining up. Okay, so this is from lbcw. LBCW says he sees a lot of injustice in the world. Not a lawyer though, he's a software developer and he wants to know how he can support justice as a software developer. Oh, I'll say about that.

Alice (65:29)

So much actually.

Brett (65:30)

So much. I mean, now is your time. I mean all justice is going to be done by software soon.

Alice (65:36)

Absolutely. I mean there's, and I'm sorry because I don't actually know what software developers do, except I know that it's important and I know that I can't do it is almost all of the best IT folks I have worked with in different legal jobs, including as a prosecutor. They are trained in software development and on their own free time because unfortunately governments, as you can imagine, are sometimes very old fashioned, slow to change, but they develop things that help us, for example, be able to analyze a cell phone dump much easier. Right. That's a massive amount of information. It's not quite AI because we, you know, we're not looking for some formula, but to be able to look through massive amounts of information in an orderly way and then to turn that massive information dump into something that can be a story to convey to the jury is all wrapped up within kind of software development and how you use technology to sift through massive amounts of information. Because these cases, as you can tell from just this timeline, is so much information, so many tips come through. But how do you possibly give the pieces of information due time that need it? So whether that's volunteering your services for like a non profit, for like missing people, looking for missing people, that's a great way. They are strapped for cash and if you're able to kind of get started in that way. I can't imagine what amazing work you can do in helping them just sort through something as simple as all of the tips coming through or how to order. The way you look at the way information is dumped into investigations these days, it's great to have access to more information, but truly, it means things could get buried, as we saw in the Delphi case. Right. That wasn't because of an. Of a. A technology dump so much as so many tips coming in. That kind of the key tip for the ultimate conviction was buried for several years because there just was too much information to sift through. So that's kind of a. I think every nonprofit could use your services. A lot of governments and prosecutors offices could probably, too, but they're slower to move to change.

Brett (67:40)

That's such a good point and just one example of how you can do this. And you see this all the time. There are people on Twitter who've invented programs that allow them to very quickly identify things. You know, you have these government websites that tell you everything. All the money's being spent. Right. This has been very much in the news lately. Well, there are people on Twitter who. What they do is they, like, develop this software that allows them to very quickly go through all the different contracts and say, hey, this is a contract. I don't like this one. You shouldn't like it either. Right? And whether you agree with that or not, it's the fact that they're doing it. That is the kind of thing where you have this massive amount of information that you could never get through on your own. And there are ways to do it, and you have to be creative and you have to be thoughtful, but there's so much out there. So what I would encourage you to do is, number one, don't be discouraged. Because, frankly, in your question, you kind of sound discouraged. I don't want you to be discouraged because there's so much opportunity. How exactly to tap into that is a little bit more difficult. But really think about your particular skills, and as Alice said, just start sort of volunteering. Find a cause you really care about in the law. And take the Innocence Project. Right? I mean, think about all the different applications they get from thousands of people around the country who are saying, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. They have to sift through all that. Right? I mean, maybe they could use somebody who could develop some software that would help them do an initial cut. You know, I mean, there's all sorts of different opportunities if you are thoughtful about what you're doing. And if you're willing to volunteer. And I'll just say this, you may think, well, I can't volunteer. I need. I still need income. Totally get that. But one thing I feel like a lot of people in this day and age forget is a lot of times free jobs turn into real jobs.

Alice (69:28)

You know, I always develop it, and then you can start selling it to other. You know, they do have budgets.

Brett (69:35)

I always go back to Hannah, who just, like, emails us out of the blue when we got 27 listeners. 28.

Alice (69:41)

She being one of them.

Brett (69:42)

Yeah, exactly. And says, hey, I really like your podcast. I'd like to do some art for your podcast. And I was like, well, we have no money. And she was like, that's fine. I'll do it for free. And so for a while, she did it for free. And then we were like, you know, hey, can we pay you, like, $25 each? Right? Like a pittance for her talent because she's amazing. But now that you know, things are going a little bit better, it's a much more professional relationship, and she's. The fees we have are much more professional. Not that she could survive on that. But the point being that she started off just.

Alice (70:17)

And she now does artwork for others as well.

Brett (70:19)

Exactly. And from doing artwork with us, she's gotten other opportunities from other podcasts. So be willing to really step out of your comfort zone, and I think you will find yourself where you want to be.

Alice (70:32)

Great question.

Brett (70:33)

Great question. Okay, well, we will be back next week with more on this. We are moving through this timeline we're getting into. I mean, the darkest part of this timeline. At this point in the timeline, either the murders are occurring or they are over and they're being covered up. And as we go through this last part, you're going to see things that happen that I think color your view on when this stuff happens. Some pretty significant things, I think, in fact, some things that are mentioned in other podcasts, but I don't feel like people talk about enough. They're going to happen right around this period, and then we'll move on to the next day and just the horrific scene when the bodies of the boys are found. Well, that's all we have for tonight, but we will be back next week. Until then, I'm Brett.

Alice (71:31)

And I'm Alice.

Brett (71:32)

And we are the prosecutors.

Alice (71:55)

Oh, poor buddy. Okay.

Brett (71:58)

Alice has also moved her recording stuff.

Alice (72:01)

If you can't tell, there's only so many more closets left, y'all. Yeah, we're sleeping.

Brett (72:10)

Like, I can only hear out of one ear.

Alice (72:13)

Me too. Is that a thing?

Brett (72:15)

Well, you're supposed to be able to do it where you can out of.

Alice (72:18)

Both, but I can hear out of both. But when I replay back, it only plays out of one, and I don't know why.

Brett (72:22)

Well, I can hear you. I can hear you out of both, but I can only hear me out of one.

Alice (72:28)

Ow. Yes. Yes, mine does that too.

Brett (72:31)

But see, you know, my kids are always pushing the buttons intelligent in their barbs. Yeah, yeah. Like hit me with something that's gonna hurt. Like you saying nobody listens to my podcast. I see the numbers, so that's not gonna hurt. I need you to give me something good. Like hit my looks or something.

Alice (73:42)

Like hit my looks.

Brett (73:44)

Yeah, I mean, there's plenty to make fun of here, right? But.

Alice (73:48)

All right.

Brett (74:30)

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Alice (75:00)

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