310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prosecutors - Episode 310: The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely

Introduction In Episode 310 of The Prosecutors, hosted by Brett and Alice from PodcastOne, the duo delves into one of America's oldest and most perplexing mysteries—the disappearance of the Roanoke Colony. Drawing upon their unique prosecutorial perspectives, Brett and Alice explore the intricate details of the first English attempts to establish a permanent settlement in the New World, the challenges faced, and the enigmatic disappearance that has baffled historians for centuries.

Setting the Stage: The Quest for New Lands [02:26 - 05:19] Brett introduces the historical context of the late 16th century, highlighting the European powers' fervent race to colonize the Americas. He recounts how the Spanish, having established vast empires in South and North America, were amassing wealth through gold and trade, particularly focusing on the fur trade conducted by the French in Canada. This monopolization by the Spanish and Portuguese created significant tensions, prompting England to seek its own colonies to compete and secure essential resources.

Notable Quote:

Brett (05:15): "It's as if we're crossing the Atlantic. It would have taken us less time to cross the Atlantic than it has to finish the West Memphis Three stories."

Queen Elizabeth's Charter and the Early Expeditions [05:19 - 13:36] Alice elaborates on Queen Elizabeth I's strategic moves to grant charters to explorers like Sir Humphrey Gilbert and his cousin Sir Walter Raleigh. These grants were pivotal in England's attempts to stake claims in the New World. Despite personal challenges, such as Raleigh's house arrest due to his courtship, the Queen's support enabled multiple expeditions aimed at establishing English presence and countering Spanish dominance.

Notable Quote:

Alice (13:33): "History. This is the unabridged version and also a rated R version of a history."

The Amadas Barlow Expedition: Establishing Roanoke [13:36 - 25:28] Brett narrates the journey of the Amadas Barlow expedition, which set sail in April 1584 with the mission to explore and establish a foothold in North America. Despite initial friendly interactions with Native American tribes and promising signs of fertile land, unforeseen challenges arose. A severe storm in May 1585 disperses the fleet, leading to logistical nightmares and reduced supplies. Consequently, only 100 men remain on Roanoke Island, struggling to build a sustainable colony amidst deteriorating relations with the indigenous populations.

Notable Quote:

Brett (18:16): "The disappearance of the entire colony of Roanoke. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance."

Building the Colony and Rising Tensions [25:28 - 36:48] The hosts detail the efforts of Ralph Lane and his 100 men to fortify the settlement, including constructing a fort and a science center aimed at assessing the land's resources. However, the lack of women and families in the initial settlement exacerbates challenges, leading to overreliance on local resources and heightened tensions with Native American tribes. Misunderstandings and aggressive actions, such as the killing of Chief Wingina, further strain relationships, setting the stage for impending conflicts.

Notable Quote:

Alice (35:06): "I really do wonder if they, like, had to draw straws, you know, that's a great question."

Sir Walter Raleigh's Second Expedition and the Second Colony [36:48 - 49:39] In an attempt to salvage the failed first colony, Sir Walter Raleigh orchestrates a second expedition in 1587, this time including women and children to ensure a more stable and sustainable community. Led by Governor John White, the group arrives to find the first colony abandoned, with signs of prior conflict. Despite hopes for a fresh start, mounting pressures and continued hostilities lead to the colony's eventual abandonment, leaving behind the infamous cryptic message "Croatoan."

Notable Quote:

Brett (36:48): "They have now set up their little colony there, and they are going to build their own settlement."

The Enigma of "Croatoan" [49:39 - 66:22] Alice and Brett explore the discovery of the "Croatoan" carving on a wooden post and various stones purportedly left by the colonists, known as the Dare Stones. While initial skepticism surrounded these artifacts, recent archaeological efforts and discoveries—such as hammer scale residues—suggest possible interactions between the colonists and Native American tribes. The hosts discuss prevailing theories, ranging from assimilation with local tribes to violent confrontations, and how modern technology continues to unearth new evidence yet fails to provide definitive answers.

Notable Quote:

Brett (52:19): "Croatoan is both the name of a local Indian tribe and also the name of an island roughly 50 miles away."

Recent Developments and Ongoing Mystery [66:22 - 89:01] The episode touches upon the fluctuating credibility of the Dare Stones and the scientific community's struggle to verify their authenticity. Brett highlights how historical hoaxes have clouded the narrative, making it challenging to discern fact from fiction. Despite significant archaeological efforts and technological advancements like ground-penetrating radar and genetic research, the fate of the Roanoke colonists remains unresolved. The hosts express anticipation for future episodes, promising to explore emerging theories and discoveries that might finally shed light on this enduring mystery.

Notable Quote:

Brett (70:47): "If the stone is legitimate, the first one, forget the rest of them. If the first one is legitimate, that's a huge deal."

Conclusion and Teaser for Part 2 [89:01 - End] As the episode wraps up, Brett and Alice acknowledge the depth and complexity of the Roanoke mystery, teasing a continuation in the next episode. They invite listeners to engage with the show through reviews, questions, and interactions with their young researchers from Liditz Elementary, emphasizing the collaborative effort in uncovering historical truths.

Notable Quote:

Alice (83:36): "We have to end today's recording and come back to finish it. Because there's just so much to this mystery."

Final Thoughts Episode 310 of The Prosecutors offers an engaging and thorough exploration of the Lost Colony of Roanoke, blending historical facts with investigative intrigue. Brett and Alice adeptly guide listeners through the chronological events, challenges, and theories surrounding this enigmatic chapter of American history. With their prosecutorial lens, they invite audiences to ponder the unresolved questions and the lingering legacy of Roanoke's disappearance.

Key Takeaways:

• The Roanoke Colony's establishment was fraught with logistical challenges, supply issues, and deteriorating relations with Native American tribes.
• The mysterious disappearance, marked by the word "Croatoan," remains one of America's enduring historical enigmas.
• Ongoing archaeological efforts and modern technology continue to seek answers, but definitive conclusions are yet to be reached.
• The collaborative involvement of young researchers adds a fresh perspective to unraveling this historical mystery.

For Listeners: Stay tuned for Part 2 of this two-part series, where Brett and Alice will delve deeper into the various theories and recent discoveries related to the Lost Colony of Roanoke. Engage with the hosts by leaving reviews, sending in questions, and participating in discussions to further enrich this investigative journey.

Transcript

[Shopify Representative]

It's 2025 and a new year means brand new opportunities. And for a lot of you out there, I know you've been thinking about one thing over the holidays and that is starting your own business. But you have so many questions like how do I get started? How do I come up with a brand? How do I even sell stuff to people? And what am I even going to sell now? Take a deep breath. Shopify has got you. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and get your first sale attend. And you can get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates. You don't have to be a coding nerd or a design geek to get this done. All you need to do is drag and drop. Shopify also helps with the details like shipping taxes and payments from one single dashboard so you can focus on the important stuff like growing your business. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com truecrime or go to shopify.com truecrime to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com truecrime.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

From the waters of Lake.

[Brett]

Erie, it was raising flags. He said there's no way that that fish should weigh 7.9 pounds. It's just not big enough.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

To a nondescript office building in Richmond, Virginia, home to a $700 million fund for children with special needs.

[Brett]

If there was a cliche list of how to blow money that you just stole very quickly, this guy did all of them.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

To the ski slopes of Salt Lake City, where a former Olympic snowboarder landed on the FBI's most wanted list.

[Brett]

Ryan James Wedding is one of those interesting Norcos who have had two very successful careers, one legal and one illegal.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

We're pulling back the curtain on a fresh lineup of opportunists who stopped at nine Nothing to get ahead. These are the stories of people who saw a loophole, a moment of weakness, a chance to get ahead, and took it. I'm Host Sarah James McLaughlin. Join me for a new season of the opportunist on May 19th. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brett]

I'm Brett.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Brett]

And we are the Prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors is the oldest mystery in American history. 117 men, women and children left England in search of a better life in the new world. Instead, they vanished, leaving behind only a single word. Croatoan. This is the story of the lost colony of rogue. Hello everybody. And welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined by my co host who accidentally colonized Roanoke, Jamestown, Plymouth, and most of the modern day east coast, Alice.

[Alice]

Hey, Brett. It's so good to be here because every year I look forward to recording this. This episode that our Liddit's kids have helped us research. And this year is no exception. They are some of the brightest kids I've ever met.

[Brett]

They're awesome. They're awesome. And that was from Jackson. We got a lot. I got a lot of great superlatives, so I got to do several. Normally, Alice only gets one, but I had the Duchess. I liked that one. I don't know where they came up with that one.

[Alice]

That was Sienna because they were royalty coming over.

[Brett]

Oh, there you go.

[Alice]

They were all loyalty, you know, like the. The queen would like, you know, divvy out the. The rights to the different parts. So I get it. I got you Liddit's kids. I gotcha.

[Brett]

You know, rock came up a lot, so I don't know if they were thinking about Plymouth Rock or what, but it's my rockin go getter from Emma, My crazy rockin from Sophia.

[Alice]

You see, I knew I liked these kids.

[Brett]

Lillian, she came up with Algonquin Waka hachi, which means cryptic tree. Now, that was great because that is a key part of the mystery we're going to talk about today. A cryptic tree with a cryptic message that to this day, people are still trying to figure out. I know some of you may have came here for West Memphis three, but as we said when we started our journey, our sojourn, our epic voyage, it's as if we're crossing the Atlantic. It would have taken us less time to cross the Atlantic than it has to finish the West Memphis Three stories. And we said we were going to do some of these other episodes in between. And this one, the great kids at Lititz elementary, who we've had the honor of joining now four straight years. Is this the fourth year that we did this?

[Alice]

I think this is the fourth year because this is the fifth year of the podcast. And their amazing teacher.

[Brett]

Shout out to their amazing teacher, Alex, who has been listening to the podcast for a while and is foolish enough to get us involved and yet still hasn't. Hasn't been fired. I think he probably had to have a meeting with the principal after our first episode when we kind of. We might have got a little silly with the name of the town.

[Alice]

They were all in the outtakes. You could definitely stop ahead of time and Lytics.

[Brett]

Liditz.

[Alice]

It's Litz. There's nothing funny about it whatsoever.

[Brett]

Awesome place. We talked about this last time. Amazing.

[Alice]

Talk about a Hallmark movie setting.

[Brett]

We didn't get to go this time because we had babies.

[Alice]

We felt so bad. I'm so sorry, Liddit's elementary, that we couldn't come in person because last year we made the trip and it was one of the best trips ever. We were driving around town being like, does everyone know about this place? Because this is a Hallmark movie.

[Brett]

Don't move there because I want.

[Alice]

It was amazing. They have ice sculpture, like, contest. I mean, and they were the friendliest people ever. Great coffee, great snacks. Everything about them is great. Okay, the reason we're going on and on about this is because we, we have said this to you and we really do mean it. When you guys reach out to us to talk to your classes or whatnot, we pretty much, if we can say yes, we try to say yes. And we are so excited to have talked to Litz elementary for four years in a row. And here's why I'm excited, Brett. I know we're always talking about doom and gloom, murder, mayhem, all that sort of thing. And it can get one to be pretty pessimistic about the future of our country or about our society. Nay. What? When we speak to Liditz elementary, honestly, the excitement they have in terms of researching, following the evidence, using rational thinking far exceeds, honestly, a lot of the people I interact with on a daily basis who are factors older than they are. So I feel like our future is in good hands. That's why I'm so pumped about this episode and generally our relationship with this awesome school.

[Brett]

You know, Alice is excited whenever she starts throwing out nay, but she's excited. Nay is. That's. That's your sign, Alice turns out nay. You know, she said, I'm a big fan of nay as well. Nay. Nay.

[Alice]

I'm not a horse, but not at that. And the other thing is, we all know. Well, maybe we don't all know, but, you know, we don't say our kids names on the show mostly because, I don't know, it's funnier to give them nicknames. So. My second son has a deep love of the Native Americans. It's years long at this point. And he wants to be Squanto. Dresses up as Squanto all the time. This is not a Thanksgiving thing. This is a year round thing. He runs around, he eats with a wooden spoon, for example. And the fact that he was so excited about this mystery. I told him about it. I told him about the mystery around it, and maybe Native Americans were part of it, maybe they weren't. My kids are excited about this story, too. So if you're out there listening, you like mysteries, this is going to be a great history lesson as well.

[Brett]

Look, if we had a history podcast, we'd do like, five episodes on this. I kind of want to do five episodes anyway, because it's an awesome story. And as Alice said, I mean, this is the history of the country and exploration and everything else, and it takes you way back, you know, into the time before time. You know, I mean, we're in the colonial period, we're in the 1500s, and this is. It's hard to overstate, sort of 1492 and the effect it had on the world. I mean, whatever you think about Columbus, and he's a controversial figure these days, the discovery of the Americas by the Europeans is one of those things that, like, shattered the world. I mean, it changed everything. And we live with those reverberations till this day. And this was right as that is getting going. And Columbus, although he was Italian, he had sailed for Spain in Spain had taken massive advantage of this. And if you know anything about this time period, basically the Portuguese were these master navigators, and they had figured out how to sail all the way around Africa to Asia. And the spice trade was huge. You know, you think about a world in which you don't have pepper. You know, like pepper is such an amazingly valuable commodity that people are willing to get on these rickety boats and. And sail thousands of miles around, like the Horn of Africa to Asia just to get it and how much money it was worth. And the Portuguese had basically a monopoly on this because they had developed these sea routes. And everybody in Europe was trying to figure out a way to take advantage of this. And there were overland routes and everything else, but they were dangerous. They took forever. And the Spanish Columbus shows up and he has this idea, and everybody knew the world was round, so forget about that. But. But he had this idea if since the world is round, rather than sail around Africa, if you just go that way, you'll hit Asia, right? You'll hit India. And problem for him was he thought the Earth was about half as big as it actually was. And so it's a good thing there was a massive landmass in the middle, or everybody would have died, right? But he starts sailing to the west, and he hits north and South America and the islands of the Caribbean. He calls in the West Indies, because in his mind, India is just right around the corner. The peppers. Why are peppers called peppers? Well, it was because they didn't find pepper. He didn't find peppercorns, which is what they were looking for. But he found these like spicy peppers you could eat. And so he called them peppers. It was pure branding. Right. So if you ever wondered why peppers are called peppers, it was a branding thing. And then he brings back, he's like, oh, look, it's just like pepper but different. Right. Spicy as well.

[Alice]

Completely different.

[Brett]

Completely different.

[Alice]

But I never thought about it. It is branding. It was totally brand, completely co opting something that everyone wanted.

[Brett]

Yeah. But the Spanish, eventually they run into the Incan empire and the Aztec empire and these empires just have all this gold. And so the Spanish are suddenly making a ton of money off of their colonies and their whole purpose was gold and gold fever in Europe. And the Spanish empire is growing. They're building this massive fleet. It's starting to put a lot of pressure on the English who, you know, live on an island. So if somebody builds a bigger fleet than them, it's a problem. Right. And they're falling behind. The Portuguese have their thing. The Spanish now have this massive empire in South America and are starting into North America. They start the first permanent European settlement in St. Augustine, Florida. So they've got a base there. And the French are doing a lot in Canada and in the forest and they're really into the fur trade. That's how they're making their money. They're making their money off furs. The Spanish are making their money off gold. And the English are left behind. So they have this desire to do something as well. They want to colonize something as well. And so they are in this race and really all they can do is they're a bunch of pirates. Basically. At this point, the English are robbing Spanish treasure ships. That's all they can do. And it's leading to big tension, literally.

[Alice]

Pirates, right? Like when I found this, I was like, man, you could just do this. Like we can't get resources. We're just going to steal all your stuff as it's coming through. Isn't that just going to set off wars?

[Brett]

Yeah, and pretty much it did. And this is a huge problem for England because at the time there's this whole mercantile system that's set up and the colonies are providing natural resources and the powers are not trading this with each other. Right. So the Spanish aren't getting the natural resources and trading it with English. They're keeping it in Spain and using it to build their own economy. So unless you have some sort of colony that you can get these resources from, you have a huge problem. And so the English decide we need to add some colonies. And this is going to help us in a couple ways. We're going to be able to get these goods that we need, and we can sort of stop the Spanish from spreading north. Because the big fear was that the Spanish eventually would have a new world empire that stretched all the way from South America to Canada. And if that happened, Spain's going to conquer the world, Right? So the English are very interested in stopping that from happening.

[Alice]

So as a result, Queen Elizabeth gave a grant to Sir Humphrey Gilbert in 1578 to make an expedition to North America and claim land for England. By the way, like, this is why the duchess, the descriptor, you can just give grants to whoever. Like, how do you get on her good list? Do you just, like, wait outside her castle all day? You know, this is why I asked.

[Brett]

What, you sleep with her?

[Alice]

Is that really.

[Brett]

That's. Yes, absolutely. So the Virgin Queen, Queen Elizabeth had very many favorites at court, and Gilbert was one of them. But really Gilbert's connection, as we're going to see, is his cousin, who might have been Queen Elizabeth's favorite. And plus, I mean, what does it mean to grant someone a charter? I mean, you basically are just saying, hey, all that land that the Spanish claim they own and there's a bunch of people living on. Well, we're just going to say, hey, it's yours now. Go colonize it. So it wasn't like it was a heavy lift for Queen Elizabeth.

[Alice]

That is fair. Oh, man. History. This is the unabridged version and also a rated R version of a history.

[Brett]

Sorry, lydditz kids.

[Alice]

But you know, okay, so Queen Elizabeth gives this grant to Sir Humphrey Gilbert. He's like, go get some land for England. So from 1578 to 1583, Gilbert organized three expeditions to the New World, where he explored New England, the Mid Atlantic Newfoundland, and Cape Breton Island. But before his work was ever complete, Gilbert was unexpectedly killed during a storm in 1583. I mean, this truly was incredibly dangerous work to be going on these expeditions. Now, Gilbert wasn't the only member of his family passionate about colonizing the Americas. And as many things like think about land and hereditary, you know, land grants and whatnot, they wanted to keep it in the family. And so his cousin, Sir Walter Raleigh, and his brother Adrian Gilbert were determined to finish what Gilbert had started. So Queen Elizabeth divided Gilbert's original charter between the two men. Adrian Gilbert was given a patent for Newfoundland and other northern points. He gets, shall we say, Santa's land and Raleigh, he's an English courtier, soldier, mariner, explorer, explorer and historian. And he was given the patent to the lands to the south. And I guess with what you're saying with these grants, it doesn't really matter because she's kind of just drawing lines into the air like go get them guys. But it stays within the family. And the whole point is there are more people going out to get land claim land for England.

[Brett]

So Raleigh had become a favorite of the Queen. So much so that when he married one of the ladies of court, Queen Elizabeth was very unhappy with him and basically put him under house arrested. And she would not let him leave her sight. She had to be with him at all times. So she gives him all this land to go colonize, but he can't actually leave England to colonize it. So he has this issue where he has to find people who are willing to go out and take an extraordinary amount of risk. You can imagine crossing the Atlantic in the 1500s. I wouldn't want to cross the Atlantic now and find people who are willing to take these expeditions. And he puts together something that will come to be known as the Amadas Barlow expedition. So they go out and they sort of look around and there's multiple sort of scouting expeditions that they go to the coast, they meet some of the natives who are there, they check some of the land out, and they're really trying to figure out what is a good place for us to set up shop. And there's a few things they're looking for. They're looking for fertile soil, they're looking for abundant game, they're looking for deep water ports for their ships. That's the kind of things they're looking for. So this expedition goes out, comes back, rob some Spanish on the way and says, hey, this is pretty good place, we know where you should go. And about a year later, the English established the first settlement on Roanoke Island. Now the problem was this colony, and we're going to go through the timeline here in a second, was doomed from the start. They didn't plan very well. They had some accidents on the way. They didn't have many resources. They very quickly started killing Native Americans, which made the various tribes angry, which was a problem for them when they really had no idea how to survive in this new environment that was utterly unlike anything they'd ever seen before. And so they eventually end up abandoning this colony. And then later on, a second attempt is made. And this will set the stage for the mystery that would span centuries and last till this day. The disappearance of the entire colony of Roanoke. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there and hoping it all works out well? With the name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too.

[Alice]

You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Brett]

Guys, we are coming up on the summer and it is as action packed as ever. And it means you're going to have long work weeks and busy weekends and it can leave you feeling and looking depleted. Well, that's where Prolon's five day fasting mimicking diet comes in. It works at the cellular level to rejuvenate you from the inside out, providing real results. And now they're upping their game with the new next gen five day program delivering the same science backed benefits in a cleaner, more convenient and more flavorful format. And I know what you're thinking. You've tried the, the juice cleanses and you've tried the fad diets before. I did too and I hated them. And I thought I am not going to be able to do this whole Prolon five day program. But what's great about it is it is five days but it is a fasting mimicking diet. So you're getting food, you're getting nutrition and your body adjusts to that. You're getting the benefits of fasting without the pain. And I promise you if you try it, by the end of it you will feel better than you've ever felt in your life.

[Alice]

Prolon is a plant based nutrition program featuring soups, snacks and beverages designed to nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state, triggering that cellular rejuvenation and renewal. And NextGen builds on the original Prolon with 100% organic soups and teas, a richer taste and ready to eat meals. It was developed over decades at USC's Longevity Institute and backed by top US medical centers. Prolon has been shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic skin appearance, fat loss and energy. For a limited time. You can be first in line to experience the new next gen at special savings. Prolong is offering the prosecutor's listeners 15% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five day program, just visit prolonglife.com prosecutors that's P R O L O N L I F E.com/Prosecutors to claim your 15 discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife.com prosecutors.

[Brett]

This is an ad by BetterHelp Guys, if you're like me, there is a stigma surrounding men's mental health. You've got so much on you. You feel so much pressure to perform, to provide, to keep it all together. But what you don't get is the support you need to actually make that happen. And it's no wonder that 6 million men in the US suffer from depression every year and it's often undiagnosed. But look, it is okay to struggle. Real strength comes from opening up about what you're carrying and doing something about it so you can be at your best for yourself and everyone in your life. If you're a man and you're feeling the way of the world, talk to someone. Anyone. A friend, a loved one. A therapist. Therapy can help you BetterHelp is available to provide a therapist who can talk to you and work through your unique problems so that you can live a better, happier life.

[Alice]

And therapy isn't just for people who've experienced some major trauma event therapy for men, women, anyone. It is for anyone because you can learn positive coping skills and how to set boundaries to empower you to be the best version of yourself. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Best yet, it's convenient. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. And you can switch therapists at any time. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com prosecutors that's better h e l p.com prosecutors homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options that's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home.

[Brett]

And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com. we've done your homework.

[Alice]

All right. Like all good cases, especially this one, the timeline is incredibly important. And it's incredibly important because, man, I am not built for the time of expeditions and charters. Because these are rough lives. Not only the crossing of the ocean. I think I would just probably lose my lunch the entire way. But it's a tough life once you get here, right? You have to build a life. You have to survive. There are not only the elements that you have to survive. It's a new world, new diseases, having to learn how to hunt, eat, gather berries, all the things, not to mention potential attacks by people who are already here. And also they're like attacking the Spanish. So if I were the Spanish, you know, I'm looking for some revenge on land. So you're not just looking out for, say, tribes who are native to the land. You're also looking for other countries, colonies who may not want you to impinge on their land because again, these charters are really, just, as Mrs. Brett so well put it, it's like naming the stars after someone. Like, I definitely had, like a high school boy say that to me when I was in high school. Like, see that star? That one's named Alice. Kids don't use that. In other words, a little bit meaningless in terms of granting those charters. So let's go to April 17, 1584, the first English voyage to Roanoke Island. This is the Amadas Barlow expedition, and it began in April of 1584. The expedition was led by Captain Philip Amadas and Master Arthur Barlow. The two ships were piloted by Portuguese navigator Simon Fernandez. The ship sailed through the Canary Islands and the Caribbean, finally reaching the American coast on July 4, 1584.

[Brett]

An auspicious day. They didn't know it at the time.

[Alice]

Auspicious day. I didn't know it at the time as well, hundreds of years later.

[Brett]

Yeah, didn't really work out for them, so I don't really know that it matters. But anyways, so between July 4th and 13th, the expedition is sailing 120 miles up the coast until they reach a river issuing into the sea. And if you've ever played the game, Sid Mears colonization, you know that the little spaces next to the river, that's where you want to build your colony, because there's all sorts of resources, fishing, the ability to sort of park your ship further out and take little boats in. It's a good place to be. So they're looking for this kind of thing. And on July 13, Amadis and Barlow take possession of the land and begin exploring the region, which they would call Virginia, confusingly now, North Carolina. So. So it's not Virginia, it's North Carolina is what they called Virginia, after the Virgin Queen Elizabeth. So obvious name, right? So for the first two days, they remain in this sort of general area. They're conducting expeditions. And on the third day, they finally run into some of the natives who were hanging out. And from mid July to August 1584, they're establishing what are initially friendly relationships with two of the native American groups in the area. They're trading cloth and wine in exchange for meat and fish from the natives because, you know, they have sort of more of the manufactured goods type thing, but what they really need is food. And so. And the natives are much better at catching the fish, catching the game, than they are, I guess.

[Alice]

You can't live on wine alone.

[Brett]

Yes, there you go. And initially, things are pretty good. They're dining together, they're sort of exchanging stories. Some of the natives are joining their party as translators, and everything's fine. And they spend about four to six weeks exploring the area, learning about the population, testing the soil, sort of figuring out exactly what they want to do. And at this point, you know, they're not meant to stay. This is a. A scouting expedition. So they decide, hey, we're going to go back to England. They let the natives know, and actually two of them, the Croatoan Manteo and the Roanoke Wan Cheese, join them. So these two guys are going to go back to England with this group of colonists. And I always, you know, there. I forget what movie it was. There have been several movies made about the colonization of America, but in one of them, it depicts a scene like this where a couple of the American Indians go back to England. And I always imagine, what must that have been like? Because you're in this sort of, like, green, fertile, natural place with very little development, and then you get on this rickety boat, you sail across the ocean for months, and then you get to this massive city that is probably astounding in what it looks like, but also, you know, all the problems of a massive city, particularly in the 1500s. You can only imagine what London was like. And I just can't even imagine what that was like to see that for those two guys.

[Alice]

Like, it probably smelled horrible compared to 100 miles out. They didn't have latrines. Like, there was just like disease and waste in the streets. And that's what I would much prefer. I probably the natural woods they were coming from, but you're right. So this brings us to mid September 1584. The expedition arrives back to England. And now when they're back home. Barlow described Virginia as this land of plenty, and there were peaceful natives. He said they showed off the skins and the pearls that he had acquired with their trade with the friendly tribes. It seemed this was really a good spot that England should go back to. They should investigate some more. It's going to be a good candidate for them to establish their first permanent colony. I mean, think about it. They arrive, it's peaceful, it's beautiful, it's idyllic, it's. And even better, your neighbors who are here are helpful. They're trading with you, they're friends, they're eating with you, they're dining together. This truly seems like the perfect place to come back to. So on April 9, 1585, now Raleigh appointed his cousin, Sir Richard Grenville, to establish a settlement in North America. This is like the chain of custody. Like, I have a right. So now it's yours.

[Brett]

He can't go. So, you know, and here's another thing.

[Alice]

He can't go.

[Brett]

We didn't mention this, but this is weird too. This is time limited. So the queen only gave him like five years to work this out. It's like you need to get the colony started in five years. I'm going to give it to somebody else. So he's eager to make this happen.

[Alice]

But also, you can't leave my side.

[Brett]

Right? Yeah. Not going to make it easy on you or anything.

[Alice]

Feels a little catch 22 over here, but you're right, it's time limited. And so this is like supermarket sweeps, but with land and colony, he's like, you got to get everything you can, but it's time limited. Also, you can't go in the store. So there's a fleet of five ships, and they're carrying roughly 600 men and led by Grenville, who left England on April 9, 1585. And of course, the goal was establishing an English settlement on Roanoke Island. So though the Queen didn't provide any financial backing for the expedition, she did provide the 160 ton ship Tiger which was the largest ship in the fleet. These things are not inexpensive. But remember these ships that are being sent out to the New world is also their armada. Right. Like this is also their fighting ships. The ships are like multi purpose but she takes like the largest ship they have and says, you know, go forth and prosper. Now some of the notable men joining the expedition were Simon Fernandez who was also on the first expedition, if you remember. Ralph Lane, who was a fortifications expert. John White, he was an artist to record the landscape and flora and fauna. Thomas Harriot who was a scientist to collect samples. And Joaquin Gans, a metallurgist to assess the commercial potential of the land. And two native Americans who had come back to England, the Monteo and Wanches also, they all got on this boat and they all went back to again be prosperous. Set up this colony on Roanoke Island.

[Brett]

Yeah. And what's interesting about this, you may have noticed something that probably makes this colony unlikely to succeed in the long run. There are 600 men. That's it. No women.

[Alice]

Not, not women.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Alice]

And I mean by will they have good landscape and fauna and flora recorded.

[Brett]

Yeah. And I can go ahead and tell you they're going to want to go back to England as soon as possible. That's what I have, that's my, my prediction about these 600 men that they send out. But you know, they do, they have sort of a very diverse group of people and apparently John White was a fantastic artist and his art to this day is still displayed in museums of sort of early English depictions of the Americas. Okay. So they head out in April 1985. April 9th, and by mid May, so about a month later they're sort of in the middle of the ocean when a huge storm hits and it actually separates the fleet and knocks them off course. So you got, you got five ships, right? Well, the Tiger and two other vessels actually end up all the way down in Puerto Rico. They're trying to get to North Carolina. They're in Puerto Rico. And what's interesting about this and what I still don't quite understand frankly is so Roanoke's the first quote unquote permanent colony, but there are these other like little bases in various places. Like there's a little base in Puerto Rico and there's like a fort here and a refueling station there. So they've set up these sort of temporary locations which I would be interested to learn about, but you never hear about those places. So they end up down in Puerto Rico. They sort of get repairs, and then they're going to try and head back up. They don't know where the other two vessels are, though. They eventually are able to reconnect somehow. I mean, I don't know. They didn't call each other on cell phones, so I don't know. One thing I can say for certain, they did not have cell phones in 1585. So that's in May. June 26, 1585, the fleet, which is now reconnected, they pass through the inlet, edwaken island. While they're doing this, they run into a problem which everyone in north Carolina and the outer banks area now understands, which is this is actually not a very navigable waterway. There are a lot of shoals, a lot of shallows, A lot of places for a ship to run aground. And the tiger, the glory of the fleet, hits one of these shoals, and when it does this, it damages a ship in such a way that. That a large portion of their food supply is damaged and lost. So most of the food they were bringing with them is lost, and they're just not really set up to live off the land in the new world. And the boat, the ship itself is damaged pretty severely as well. So now they're in a situation where they don't have enough food to actually support this colony of 600 men. So they decide, we're going to leave a hundred men here, and those are the people who are going to run this colony, and the rest of us are going to have to go back. And the other thing they realize, as I was discussing, Is that this is totally unsuitable for large ships. There are too many shoals, it's too dangerous, it's too shallow, so these big ships can't come in well. So the tiger, it's repaired, and eventually the fleet will sail onto port ferdinando. And this is actually where they reunite with the other two vessels that were hanging out there, and the fleet heads back, and these hundred guys are stuck on Roanoke island, which is where they decide.

[Alice]

I really do wonder if they, like, had to draw straws, you know, that's a great question.

[Brett]

Did they want to be there or not? Now, you got to remember, they think they're going to find gold. So some of them might have been like, this is my opportunity to get rich if I can find some gold. But either way, one out of six of them are left there, and they decide the northern end of Roanoke.

[Alice]

The reason I say that is it Just kind of thinking about human psychology. If there are 600 people, I feel like if a lot of them wanted to stay, you would see the bulk of them stay and few go back. Right. You don't necessarily need all of them to go back, except for the limited food stores, but the fact that only 100 stayed, I feel like they got the short end of the stick in this situation.

[Brett]

You know, that's a great question, because it couldn't be the other way around. It could be that they really thought, we can only support 100 and the hundred lucky ones. I don't know. But, I mean, colonization for a lot of people was the opportunity to make it right. They lived in England. Maybe their, you know, their religious liberty was restricted, or maybe they were poor, or they were the second or third or fourth son and they didn't want to enter into the, you know, the priesthood or whatever. So there were a lot of people looking for opportunities. So it's a good question. I look at this as, wow, sucks for those guys. Send me back to England. But I'm not sure that that's how they viewed it. Either way, they decide to stay on Roanoke island, and they're gonna build their little colony there. And they're led by Ralph Lane, and they begin exploring the local area. They have Monteo and Juan Cheese with them, and they start making contact with the local natives, and they begin partaking in some trade. Unfortunately, this sort of peaceful coexistence, it's going to break down eventually. This, I think Lane, he was a very aggressive guy, and you're going to see this is not going to work out.

[Alice]

So In August of 1585, Grenville returned to England with the bulk of the men who had gone with him. He left Lane with one ship so that they could explore the area. And he also promised to return in April of 1586 with more men and more supplies. So essentially, what, nine months later, he's like, I will be back. Meanwhile, Lane was busy building the colony Raleigh had envisioned. He started. Like Brett said, he's aggressive. You have to be aggressive. You're coming onto, you know, this new land with nothing. There's no roads, there's no buildings. There's no really rule there. And so he starts to supervise the construction of a fort, of course, to protect this colony of 100 men. And you can imagine why. Right? That's the most important. Let's make sure we have protection for our colony. So they finish that within the first month, and then the next thing they do is they build a Science center on the island's north end so that they can study the resources and the commercial potential. Because, remember, the whole point of this colony is to claim land, to be able to have resources to send back to mother England. Now, other improvements for this colony included a separate village on the north end of Roanoke island that contained a one and a half and two story residences with thatched roofs and several other structures, houses to live in, sleep in, that sort of thing. Now, the group also explored the nearby Chesapeake Bay after the Native Americans around them told them about gold and copper in the area. Now, unfortunately, this exploration trip would be the beginning of hostile relationships between the colonists and, and the local natives. You can imagine previously, it may have been a honeymoon period. They're just here to see what things are happening. They're there for several weeks, not long. They're, they're, they're guests, but they're going home all of a sudden. Now they're coming here to take your resources, to take the area that had just been yours. They're no longer guests now. They're permanent residents. And anyone who's lived with anyone else, college roommates, anything like that, know that there can be friction and tension when you live in close proximity with someone else.

[Brett]

And I think really this mindset was a problem for the colonies because if they had just wanted to sort of be there and build their colony and grow their food and sort of do their thing, I think they would have been fine. But I don't think, once again, it's a bunch of men. They're there to make their fortune. They're not thinking long term, right? They're not thinking, we gotta live with these people for the next 50 years. They're thinking, we're gonna find some gold, we're going to get the gold and then we're going to be rich. And then we'll go back to England and we'll be rich people in England, right? So they also are spending a lot more time looking for gold than they are planting food or figuring out where to hunt or figuring out where to fish or whatever. And so it reaches a point where they're sort of dependent on the locals for food. And it gets the spring of 1586, and it's April, and this is when Grenville is supposed to come back, but he doesn't show up. And now these supplies that they were promised, and they've lived through a winter, they're not there, and they're starting to grow impatient. Their provisions are running out. Their relationships with the local population, they're souring because of the things they're doing. And those folks, they're not that interested in helping them out anymore. You know, before, they were helping them with food and stuff, but now it's like, look, we've got our own problems, right? And you guys are jerks. That's essentially. Essentially how it went down. Right? And the thing is, when they had arrived, it was too late in the season to really be able to establish a large growing farm. Farming area, right. So if the Indians aren't willing to share anything, they're going to be in trouble. And the situation gets worse and worse. Manteo, he gets word from some of his friends that the locals are planning to attack the colony. So the natives are going to attack the colony. They're sick of this, and they're going to take care of this once and for all, he tells Lane. And Lane decides the best defense is a good offense. And so he launches his own attack. And in mid June, the colonists embark on a raid. And in doing so, they kill Chief Wingina. So they kill him. And obviously, this is a big deal, whether or not this attack was coming or not. They have now made enemies, and they have now created a reputation for themselves as being violent people. You can't trust people who are going to attack you at the drop of a hat. Now, what's interesting about this, this is the first Roanoke colony. They're not going to disappear. But I think if you see sort of how this is going, I think it can inform your thoughts on what happens to the Roanoke colony we're going to talk about later. Because remember Grenville, he's supposed to come back in April. He's not there. So these guys, they start getting desperate. They start doing things like attacking the local population. And then In June of 1586, they have. I mean, basically, Taylor Swift shows up. The equivalent. Taylor Swift. It'd be like if Taylor Swift walked through my door right now. Sir Francis Drake, who is the most famous person in England, the hero of England, a great pirate, first Englishman to circumnavigate the world, discover of the Drake's Passage, scourge of the Spanish, just whatever you can imagine. He shows up, and he stops at the Roanoke colony. He's fresh off robbing several Spanish ships. His ship is full of gold. And he's like, hey, I'm heading back to England. You guys want to come? And of course, they're like, yes, that is exactly what we want to do. So they all climb on Francis Drake's ship, and they're heading back to England.

[Alice]

So again, we don't have cell phones here, right? And so Grenville didn't know that his hundred men that he left behind had already left. So he returns to the colony with the provisions as promised. Now, a little late. He said he'd be back April, but it takes a long time to go around the world. And so he comes back several months later, August, he shows up with the provisions, looks around, and he's like, gosh, okay, the colony has been abandoned. So what he does is he leaves 15 men and two years worth of supplies in order to protect Raleigh's claim to Roanoke Island. Because remember what we talked about, that charter where you're just like naming stars, it only belongs to England and Raleigh, so long as it's still theirs. But if no one is still at the colony, anyone can come by and now claim it for Spain, claim it for another country. And so he needs to protect it, because all those men, they just left. Now, meanwhile, the colonists who had returned to England, they're showing off all the new novelties that they discovered, like potatoes, tobacco, and maize. Now, despite the failure of this first settlement, these newfound goods were enough to entice a new group to attempt to colonize the island. So the following year, in 1587, there's a second expedition that goes to Roanoke Island. Now, this except expedition was again organized by Sir Walter Raleigh. Again, he can't go himself, but he organizes it. And so this next one that he sends over, John White, he's going to be the colony's governor, and he's going to have domain over 117 settlers. This time we learned from our mistake. It's not just going to be all men. They were like, you know what? If you leave all these men by themselves, they're going to go kill some chiefs, and then they're just going to hightail it out of there without doing what they were supposed to do, which is to figure out what the resources were, set up a colony, protect it, stay there. So this time they send families. And there were 89 men, 17 women, and 11 children. And each family who was going to go, they got something for it. Because this is dangerous. This is important work. If you went, your family would receive at least 500 acres of land given to them by none other than the queen.

[Brett]

So, yeah, so they're gonna do this thing. This time, they're gonna make a go of it. And the plan is, you know, Roanoke, it wasn't great. So we're gonna sail to Roanoke. It's gonna Be our jumping off point. We'll hook up with those 15 guys we left behind before, and that'll be our base of operations and we'll find a better place, a new site in the Chesapeake Bay area that has a port. Because remember, deep water port is important. You want to build a colony, you want to start trading, you want ships to be able to come in and out. Couldn't do that. Roanoke somewhere, maybe with better soil or more fish or more whatever. That's what they're gonna do. That's the plan. The best laid plans often come to ruin. So the group, they head back and they end up on roanoke island on July 22, 1587. So the plan was we're gonna talk to these 15 guys at Grenville left behind, figure out what the area is, how things are going with the Native Americans, and then we'll continue on to Chesapeake Bay and build our new colony. But when they get there, and this is the Roanoke, the vanished colony no one talks about, they show up and the fort is abandoned. The 15 men are gone. They're wandering around and they find a skeleton of one of the men. And they come to the conclusion they must have all been killed. We got into some sort of altercation. Maybe this was revenge for killing the chief. They're all dead, so we're not gonna be able talk to these guys. Well, the captain of the ship, he's like, I don't know about this, this seems tricky. Why don't y' all just stay here? I'm not really gonna take anybody any further. I'm heading back to England. And the captain of a ship is basically God when it comes to the ship. So he says that. So that's where they stay. So instead of finding a new place in the Chesapeake Bay, like Jamestown, for instance, they decide we're going to rebuild our colony here on Roanoke. So they get to work, they're restoring the settlement. They already have some basics to work with. The basics of a fort, they repair that, they've got the houses, these two story houses, they're rebuilding those, they're adding additional shelters, and every family is going to have their own home. This was a pretty big deal at the time. You know, if you were a family of little means in England at the time, you probably could not hope for anything like this. So they have this opportunity and they're excited about it, they're optimistic. And the settlement governor, John White, he's known as a fair guy, someone who they can trust and someone they like. And in fact, he has brought his family as well. His daughter is there, and his granddaughter will be the first English child born in the Americas. And they call the colony the city of Raleigh. And eventually Raleigh will get his own city, not this one, but he will get his own city. And they sort of start doing their thing. They're building their lives here in the New World.

[Alice]

But much of their hope was dashed only days after their arrival. One of the colonists, George Howe, was found dead on the beach after being murdered by Native Americans. Now, this was a clear sign that the local tribes had not forgotten about the murder of their former chief and trade with them was out of the question. In other words, even though these are different people, doesn't matter, it's all England, right? And this is meant to send a message, and a vicious message at that. So In August of 1587, the settlers urged White to return to England to get more supplies. Now, John White reluctantly agreed, but he was afraid to leave his daughter Elizabeth and his new granddaughter, Virginia Dare, who he said was the first English colonist to be born in the Americas. But the colonists prevailed upon White, and so he goes back to England, and he arrives on October 1587. Now White tries to return to the colony with two supply ships. About six months later, in April of 1588. So White did get these two supply ships. He's ready to go. But these two ships became involved with a Spanish vessel and they had to go back to England. Remember what we talked about earlier, these ships are like not single use. They. You only have so many ships. They're used for sending supplies to the New World. They're sent for discovery of New World. They're also used to fight, right? And the Spanish Armada is huge, obviously. And the Spanish Armada attacks England and so Roanoke and their supplies that they need, that gets pushed down on the priority list very quickly because the motherland is being attacked. They need all of their ships because the Spanish Armada is here attacking them. So the ships get called back. They can't be sending supplies. They need to stay here and defend England.

[Brett]

And defend it they will. And one of the great naval victories once again. Sir Francis Drake doing his Taylor Swift impression. They defeat the Spanish Armada and sort of this detente between the English, the Spanish begin. So at this point, White is now allowed to return to Roanoke. But remember, it's been two years. Remember what the colonists were doing when Grenville was a couple months late, supposed to be in there in April, he gets there in August. By the time he gets there, they're all gone. This has been Two years, you know, two winners. Two extremely difficult years where they're having to survive. And so White, he heads back, and In August of 1590, he arrives back in the colony. And when he gets there, he finds the settlement is completely abandoned. But there's no sign of struggle, and there's no indication that people left in a hurry. In fact, there is a single word carved into a wooden post. Croa. Croatoan. Now, Croatoan is both the name of a local Indian tribe and also the name of an island roughly 50 miles away. In addition to this, there is in a tree, the letters CRO are also found, as if someone started to carve Croatoan, but then stopped. Now, this today strikes us as a very strange and mysterious, a creepy and ominous thing. An abandoned colony, a word carved into a tree. But what's interesting about this is, at the time, it was a hopeful message, because, remember, the colonists never wanted to be on Roanoke. That was sort of a, we're doing the best we can because the ship's captain keeps leaving. And there had been discussion from the very beginning of moving to a more suitable area to have a colony. And so when White has to leave, he makes a deal with the colonists. He says, hey, if you need to leave or if you decide to relocate, carve the location. You intend to go in a tree. Remember, they didn't have computers, didn't have cell phones. They didn't have printers. They didn't even really have paper, right? So it's not like they could write out a long message to him about what exactly they were going to do. So they're making the best of the situation they got. So he tells them, hey, Carver, you want to go into a tree? And he finds in a tree, in a post the name of a nearby island. So he thinks, hey, this is easy peasy. They moved to the island, and it was about 50 miles away. And he had another reason to be hopeful, because they had a second part of this agreement. If they were in distress, they should draw across. So a cross shows distress. A name shows where you went. So he goes back to the ship. He says, hey, guys, they've gone to Croatoan. Let's head there. But once again, you know, fate intervenes. A huge storm strikes. The ships are separated, they're damaged. The captain, you know, he's like, we can't do this. That one of their anchor lines breaks, so they only have one anchor line left. I don't know anything about sailing, but I understand if you don't have an anchor. That can be a problem. So the captain's like, look, we got to go back to England. We can't go to Croatoan. So they have no opportunity to go to Croatoan and see whether or not that's where the colonists went. Instead, they go back to England and they have no idea whether or not John White's family and everyone else is safe or not. And unfortunately, White would never be able to return. He was not able to finance an expedition back, and he just had to accept the fact that his family was either dead or were living without him or any support from England.

[Alice]

Guys, Father's Day gifting is always the same story for me. Socks, grill, tools, repeat. But this year I wanted to do better and I found Quince. And they made buying a thoughtful gift easy. Quince has all the pieces dads actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts, and comfortable pants that work for everything from weekend hangouts to nice dinners. The best part? Everything with quints is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. They do this by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. Creating Quint gives you the luxury pieces without the crazy markups. I know I've bought lots of pieces, not only for myself, but for my husband, and he wears all of it. He cannot believe that he gets such luxurious goods for a fraction of the price.

[Brett]

And Quint's only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing and premium fabrics and finishes. I love Quince. I recently got a sports coat from Quince. I like something that's a little bit fancy, but maybe not as dressy as a suitable Quince. Nailed it. For me, you can get the same kind of satisfaction. And you can get a great gift for Father's Day as well. So for the dad who deserves better than basic, Quince has you covered. Go to quince.com prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quince Q U I N C E dot com prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com prosecutors guys, you know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. And that's why we made the switch to Mint Mobile. With plans starting at 15 bucks a month, Mint Mobile gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network the coverage and speed you're used to, but way less money. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling, literally and financially. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected averages. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month.

[Alice]

Guys, A couple years ago, I really was tired of paying so much for my cell phone bill. I looked at it and I thought there must be a different way. And that's when I found Mint Mobile. And I've been using them ever since. It's true, I got to keep my phone. I got to keep my phone number that I've had since I was in high school, in fact. And I loved it because I was paying so much less for my cell phone bill. But I didn't notice any difference in my coverage being different this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless [e-mail] prosecutors that's mintmobile.com prosecutors upfront payment of $45 for three month five gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. You know, we spend so much time caring for the skin on our face, but what about our neck? And with summer in full swing, your neck and chest are more exposed than ever. I know, I'm at the pool all day long. The sun is harsh on skin. Whether you're rocking sundresses, swimsuits or strappy tops, your neck is out there for the world to see. And it's one of the first places to show signs of aging. That's why GoPure Beauty created their revolutionary Tighten and Lift neck cream. Perfect for your summer skincare routine. It's powered by clinically proven active ingredients. This advanced formula is designed to visibly firm, smooth and rejuvenate the delicate skin on your neck and chest in as little as four to eight weeks. And here's the thing. The skin on your neck is thinner, more delicate, and less oily than the skin on your face, which means it needs some extra love, especially in the sun and heat. GoPure's firming complex targets the unique concerns of the neck while nourishing and strengthening your skin for a more lifted, youthful look so you can feel confident showing a little more skin this summer. I know once I started using it, I was so surprised how hydrated my skin felt. I just kept touching my neck. And I love it because typically I know what I want to put on my face, but I always forget that my neck also needs some tlc. And I'm so glad that I found Gopure.

[Brett]

And guys, you can do this without worry as well. All Gopure products are cruelty free, paraben free and sulfate free. So you know you're giving your skin clean, effective care without the harsh chemicals compromises. And for a limited time, our listeners get 25% off GoPure with code prosecutors at checkout. Get the summer glow up you deserve with GoPure. With over 1 million jars sold, this beauty secret is no longer a secret. For a limited time, our listeners get 25% off GoPure with code prosecutors at checkout. Just head to GoPureBeauty.com use code prosecutors and you're all set. And after you buy, do us a favor. When they ask where you heard about Gopure, tell them it was from our show.

[Alice]

This really is wild, right? Like, there's no way to tell them they're going to be two, three years delayed. And it kind of feels like if you were sent out to space, that's what the new world was like. There was truly nothing there. There were no connections to the world. You knew there was no way to get back home. Unless Sir Francis Drake happens to pop into your colony. That doesn't happen every day, but kind of like my fear of going in space, like, what if I just start floating away and no one can find me? In essence, that's kind of like what's happening here. He doesn't know what happens to his family. But flip side, the colonists expected that White would be back, and they waited year after year after year. And this will go into theories later about what happened, but like, can you imagine? At what point do you stop waiting? You don't know if John White is alive. You don't know if England is still standing. You have no idea what's going on. And at some point, it just becomes a fight for survival.

[Brett]

Yeah, I mean, you can imagine. And we'll talk about this more in the next episode because we're not going to do this in one episode. We've got so much to talk about. So we're gonna do Two episodes on this, I guess you get two bonus episodes of West Memphis Three. But you can imagine if you're there every day that passes because you don't know. You don't know about the armada, you don't know about the war. You're not getting mail, you know, unless Sir Francis Drake shows up, which, like I said, is basically the equivalent of Taylor Swift walking through the door. I'm not even kidding about that. I mean, this was like an amazing thing that he just happened to show up. Unless something like that happens, you have no idea what's going on. You don't know if you've been forgotten. You don't know if the supply ship sank on the way over, which is very possible, almost likely. And so you're having to make decisions about your life and you carve this into a tree and who knows what you do? That's in 1590. So in 1602, Raleigh, you know, still cares about his colony city of Raleigh. He sends an expedition to search for the lost colonists, but they are unable to locate anyone. Now, look, the search wasn't that thorough. There have been stories that basically they showed up, they immediately started looking for gold, which is what they do. They're like, don't see any colonists, any gold, any gold. Anybody heard about gold? Gold, gold, gold, Right. That's what they're. They're doing. So they don't find anybody, but they didn't look that hard either. Five years later, Jamestown is established. And look, you can imagine if you're showing up at the colony in Jamestown, you have some interest in what happened to the people in Roanoke. Both curiosity and because your own survival will depend on any sort of lessons that you might learn. So they start searching for the lost colonists, and they really find no trace of them. All they hear are rumors, which we'll talk about more later. And some of these rumors are pretty dark that basically the Roanoke colonists were massacred by the natives. Though these were rumors and never really proven. And with that, the trail grows cold.

[Alice]

For centuries and quite literally centuries. Nothing after 1590, even before 1590, nothing. In the early 1600s, when they kind of look, then they really start looking in earnest. No word at all until 1937. A North Carolina tourist finds a stone with the following. Ananias Dare and Virginia went hence unto heaven. 1591, Anya Englishman, shoe John White, Governor, Via. And the other side of the stone said that only seven of the Roanoke colonists were left alive and that the Native Americans murdered the rest. And it was signed ewd, which we think is Eleanor White Dare. So, in essence, you have the stone that is almost like it's a time capsule, right? They don't have. Well, I mean, paper is not going to, you know, make it back to England. It could get eaten. It could get thrown away. It could disintegrate. So they have this stone. It's like a memory of, you know, Virginia, if this is, in fact, Eleanor Dare of when they died and trying to tell what happened. Now, the tourist found the stone, brought the stone to Emory University, where it was examined for authenticity. The professor who examined it couldn't verify its authenticity, but did assert that it was, quote, consistent with the phrasing of the time, and the colonists would have had tools to carve such a message. So, in other words, it's possible everything fits what it could be of this time period, but he just couldn't actually say whether this was real. Now, in 1940, word of this stone has traveled. People have wanted to know for hundreds of years what happened to this roanoke Colony. In 1937, this phone pops up. What do you think happens next, huh? All of a sudden, people are finding stones everywhere. 47 more stones are found by 1940, and they are dated until 1599. A stone is dated from 1592 claiming that the survivors of Roanoke are safe living with a tribe in the Nacoochee valley in Georgia. And then there's another stone. It's dated 1598, and it claims that Eleanor Dare has married the local chief and is part of the tribe here. Yet another stone claims that this time, Eleanor Dare, after she married the local chief, she's given birth to the chief's daughter. But now the tribe is angry about it, and Eleanor requested that her father bring this baby girl back to England with him. Yet Another stone, dated 1599, stated that Eleanor Dare had died and that she had a daughter named Agnes who survived her. Well, now you're thinking, wow, after this first discovery, now we're finding the whole encyclopedia of what happened. Thankfully, we were able to find all these stones. Right? These stones are collectively called the Dare stones. But if red flags are waving in your mind, good job, because this sounds a little suspect. None of these 47 stones were found until that first stone was found in 1937. And they seem to tell a very detailed anthology of what happened to the Dares, specifically. Well, in 2015, archaeologists looked at these stones again for a history channel documentary, and these archaeologists concluded that while the first stone was legitimate, the rest were hoaxes. People basically saw it, wanted to be part of history. Fame, money, who knows? They find these fake stones that they had carved themselves.

[Brett]

Now, what's interesting about this. So the documentary says the first stone is legit. This is somewhat of an outlier position by historians because it became pretty obvious pretty quickly that the latter stones are fake. Problem with that is people automatically assumed that the first stones were fake and that the very first stone was fake. And for a long time, the guy at Emory who had looked at that first stone and said it was legit, he was ridiculed. He was sort of ostracized. The problem. You see this a lot. The problem with science and historians and everything else is it is very easy if you stray outside of the mainstream at all, to be ostracized. And so there's a lot of unwillingness to rock the boat. So nobody really looked at this for a very long time because the first guy who did it basically lost his career. Their hoaxes, I'm not even interested. You have these people look at it on the History Channel, which also has ancient aliens. So question the source. But they say.

[Alice]

But it's the History Channel.

[Brett]

Exactly. They say this is legit. Is it? I don't know. That's a really important question. If this stone is legitimate, the first one, forget the rest of them. If the first one is legitimate, that's a huge deal. I mean, that's massive. Right now, it is interesting that it took so long to find this. And the fact of the matter is, from the end of the 1800s through World War II was a time of historic hoaxes. People were making hoaxes about things in history all the time. We've talked about some of them, or potentially some of them. Now, you guys may recall we did the Orang Medan. And the theory behind that is it is a historical hoax, that basically somebody just made that story up to sell newspapers. This is a tourist finds a stone that's been sitting in, you know, a Creek bed for 300 years that has this story on it of massive significance. What are the chances? Right? So you can understand why there's a lot of skepticism. But if the stone is legitimate, it's a big deal. But whether it is or not, scientists have continued to look at this in efforts to determine the fate of the Roanoke settlers have really ramped up since the 1990s. Cable television, various things got a hold of the story. It captures the imagination, and people are interested in it. Archaeologists have been completing digs since this period around this area, both in Roanoke and in Croatoan Island. And they've been Finding interesting things. They've been finding items that they can source to the Roanoke period, but they're trying to determine, does it go beyond that. Right now, one of the problems they have is erosion of the shoreline. So this area has changed a lot in the last 500 years, and it's become difficult because portions of the settlement are underwater. Any evidence that those portions might have are underwater as well. Now, technological advances have helped. Ground penetrating radar has been helpful in finding artifacts over the years. And since the early 2000s, we've started to engage in genetic research, because what is one of the obvious possibilities here? As the Deer Stone said, you can imagine the colonists, either through necessity or conquest, beginning to integrate with the local tribes. And so people have been thinking, hey, if we can establish some sort of link between local Native American descendants and English colonists, boom, we've got it. Now, this has been a challenge because no evidence of the lost colony has been found. Nothing. No bones, no graves, nothing. So it's a little difficult when you're doing this genetic research to establish a connection. Croatoan is now called Hatteras Island. There have been a number of excavations there, and they've discovered any number of artifacts, including glass and copper rings that are dated to the Elizabethan period. So it's a connection, but it doesn't necessarily nail things down. Now, this is a hot story, maybe a cold case, but it's hot. And on May 12, 2025, there were articles, including in the venerable Daily Mail, which, if you're in the Daily Mail, it must be true. Basically, the Weekly World News.

[Alice]

It's a fun read, I'll say.

[Brett]

That's how much you can trust it. It is a fun read. But they reported that the mystery has been solved. It's just like the 15 times they figured out who DB Cooper was, and it's always a different guy.

[Alice]

Or Dyatlov Pass.

[Brett]

Or Dyatlov Pass. Solved again, right? It's the same thing. The mystery has been solved. Scott Dawson, who, to his credit is a longtime researcher in this area, said that they had found something called hammer scale on Hatteras Island. Now, hammer scale is a byproduct of metalworking, and it's not something that would have been native to the area at the time. So the local tribes would not have had this technology. So the fact that you find hammer scale would seem to indicate that this is from English colonists. And you find this hammer scale at around the same area of digs as items belonging to natives. And so that tells you that this happened in generally the same time. So maybe what you have the Roanoke colonists moving from Roanoke to Croatoan island being absorbed into the tribe and bringing their technology with them. And now you're seeing in. So that's where the research sits as of as we record 15 days ago.

[Alice]

And by the way, one of our Libitz elementary researchers found that article. So great job researching as well. We're not making fun of the Daily Mail. The fact that they were looking at articles now was great research. Again, like I said, I. I don't say this lightly. The research they did was excellent. Their presentation, their enthusiasm for history, and also for this mystery is incredibly heartening. So you guys should look into the Roanoke mystery like them, because guess what, there's time. Because we have to end today's recording and come back to finish it. Because there's just so much to this mystery.

[Brett]

Honestly, we could do multiple, multiple episodes on this. It's fascinating. But Alice is right. I had not heard this. Literally, we were talking to them, we were doing the presentation with them when this news broke. And so they told us. So this was not. We had an outline that we had prepared. This was not in the outline. So this is a result of the great kids at Liditz and their research. So thank you to them because we would have missed this and there would have been the number of one star reviews that have been like, you guys covered Roanoke. You totally missed it.

[Alice]

You missed the article.

[Brett]

You missed the most important thing.

[Alice]

Thank you, Liditz, for making sure we weren't getting those one star reviews for last of research.

[Brett]

I know. Amazing.

[Alice]

So you know what? We should have asked them. We're gonna have to do this for next year. Please help us remember to their wonderful teacher, Alex. We should ask them, in addition to giving us descriptors, to have questions for us to answer in their episode.

[Brett]

Great idea.

[Alice]

Next year, because I was just thinking, what questions can we answer that they might find interesting as well?

[Brett]

So we have a lot left to talk about. There are so many theories about what happened to the colonists at Roanoke, and we're going to spend an episode talking about them. Obviously, I think your sort of popular theory is this, you know, they were absorbed in the tribes thing, but there's a lot, there's a lot. You know, we got yetis, we got aliens, we got various other things we have to talk about. So we'll do a second bonus episode next week so you guys can hear about this as well. But I hope you guys have enjoyed this so far. If you have thoughts, questions or comments, shoot Those to us@pythonsporters podmail.com if you just want to tell us how awesome the kids at Linux are, you can shoot us an email. We will make sure to pass that along to their teachers. Yeah, I'll tell you what lit it's they go to school for a long time. They're in school till like the middle of June. I don't really get it, you know, but it's good for us because plenty of time to record this episode. But nevertheless. So if you shoot us an email, we'll let them know and they'll still be in school so they can learn about it. If you want to watch us record these episodes or if you want to get them early and ad free, join us on Patreon. If you want to talk about these cases, the gallery on Facebook is the best place to do so. Well, Alice, you mentioned questions. Do you want to answer a question tonight before we sign off?

[Alice]

Absolutely.

[Brett]

Absolutely.

[Alice]

Absolutely. I'm in no rush.

[Brett]

I'm in no rush.

[Alice]

Fiddled with my microphone for 20 minutes while everybody waited.

[Brett]

We had technical difficulties at the beginning of this. Okay, let's see. So as we have said before, if you leave a five star review and a question, we will answer the question for you. And we have tons of them. They're all amazing. But okay, this is 420 flyer. Probably answer more than just this question. But 420 flyer wants to know how did you come up with the April Fool's episode where the theme song played for forever?

[Alice]

Wow. You guys, you guys know that we, we Truly love your 5 star reviews. But we really love the 1 star reviews. Like we really love it. Some may call that trolling. Some may just say that we have a great sense of humor, shall we say because what is it? I am rubber, you are glue. That's how I feel about one star reviews. And so if you go look at our one star reviews, don't just leave some five stars. So we push them out of the way. People have very strong feelings about our song. This is why, by the way, when the Liditz elementary students played their version of our song last year, it quite literally brought tears to my eyes because they understood us on such a deep level. I felt seen. So people hate the song. They think it's too loud. They think it's too rock, they think it's too long. We hear this all the time. Great song, but way too long. So what do you do when a mouse asks for a cookie? You give them a whole jar full of cookies and then some more and Then a truckload and the cookies keep coming. So the song just keeps on coming. Because really, I feel like those one star reviews saying the song was too long, they were simply asking for more song.

[Brett]

Look, you know, people have said that I'm a troll, that hurts my feelings, but it is kind of true, so I can't really deny it. And I'll just say you should take this as a sign of who we are, right? We don't pander, we don't give in. We don't tell you what you want to hear. You tell us you hate the song, you get 40 minutes of the song. That's how we roll. So this just goes to the foundational principle of this show. We're going to give you what we think and what we believe and nothing else. And that includes that our song is awesome. So there you go.

[Alice]

And life lesson lit its kids don't give in to the naysayers because you know what, they may be loud, but they are usually not in the majority. And also, if you know something to be true and beautiful, like the song is, I love it. And you know what? If we had backed away from it, we may never have had the awesome versions that you guys played for us, which really are some of my favorite songs now. I play it for my kids all the time. It brings a huge smile to my face. And the best part, it brings smiles to lots of people's faces now. So don't give in to the naysayers.

[Brett]

Okay, so the next question is sad. Should I ask it or should we just write or should we just wrap up?

[Alice]

I mean, it's like really sad.

[Brett]

I don't know, it makes me sad to think about. But I guess I could. I could skip it. I could skip it and do a different song. It's a great question, a good one. It's a great question. But I mean, it's kind of depressing.

[Alice]

Go ahead now. Now everybody wants to know what it is, you might as well do it. And if it's not kid appropriate, we'll just cut it out for now.

[Brett]

This is from Bandorian. And Bundorian wants to know, aside from hymns, what song would you like played at your funeral?

[Alice]

Oh, okay. It's not sad. I'll say this. Why have I told you this? So My oldest is 7 years old. And every night when I say, good night, bud, I love you, he responds, I hope I die before you.

[Brett]

Every night.

[Alice]

Every night. Last words he says to me as I close the door. And I'm always like, huh? It's so sweet, but so morbid.

[Brett]

Yeah, very morbid.

[Alice]

So actually, we spent. If you have young children, I think you spend a lot of time talking about death, actually, because kids are fascinating. We seek roadkill. And they're like, how do you die? What happens when you die? All these things. So actually, I don't think it's that. More a bit of a question, because we do talk and think about death a lot, at least in this household.

[Brett]

My. My daughter will do that. She's five. And so one day we're driving back from school, and she tells me. She's like, Daddy, in 95 more years, I'll be 100. And I was like, yeah. I was like, that's really good. That's great. Now, baby, that's great. And she goes, yeah, and you'll be really old. You'll almost be dead. And I was like, yeah, not almost, kid.

[Alice]

Not almost.

[Brett]

I mean, I'm not taking that great care of myself. But anyway, I think. What song do you want to play? See, it's only sad because I've been at funerals where people played songs, and I'm, like, sad about it, but, yeah, him.

[Alice]

I know you said no hymns, but I think I'd want kind of a full circle, because I thought a lot about the song selection at my wedding, because it wasn't just for. It wasn't just like, you know, for a. What is called a flash mob, which is also awesome. But it was to, like, think about life, Right? Like, funerals and weddings have that in common. Of course, one is typically joyful and one is typically, you know, sad. But they're the arcs of life. And so I put a lot of thought into the songs that we had at our wedding, and they were sung by very close friends of mine. And so it's the song, but also I think it's. Who would sing it that. That matters very much to me.

[Brett]

Yeah. Well, you know, so I will say this. I've been very blessed. Like, I could be struck by lightning now and be fine. So I really want my. Because I have an awesome life. I mean, I've said an awesome life. I've lived a life already, right? And so I really want my funeral to be a celebration, Like, a real celebration. Like, I want people drinking. I want people singing. I want it to be more like an Irish wake, right? I want.

[Alice]

You know, I'll come dance at your wedding.

[Brett]

You go, yeah, come dance in my wedding. Right. Or my funeral.

[Alice]

It's not your wedding.

[Brett]

But so, yeah, I mean, I want to have some Hymns. Because hymns are good, you know, But I mean, obviously somewhere in Jackson has to be played at some point.

[Alice]

Obvious. Actually, I would have it played.

[Brett]

Just put it on this. Put the 45 minute. Put the.

[Alice]

I was gonna say I'd want. I want the 40 minute version.

[Brett]

Yeah, put. Put the.

[Alice]

And maybe the kid version, maybe the kids version.

[Brett]

I mean, not to be cliche, but I do love Bob Dylan and Knocking on Heaven's Door is awesome. So. Yeah, that would be a good one.

[Alice]

So one of my. I mean, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go back to him, but like, one of my favorite hymns of all time is Amazing Grace. So that was at our wedding. And the history of writing it are also incredible. So I would totally have Amazing Grace yet again. And you. It could be arranged awesomely. I don't care. I don't care how it's saying.

[Brett]

I mean, we'll play the fight song, obviously. Sweet Home Alabama a little bit Dixie Lander Life.

[Alice]

Don't bring. Don't bring an eagle.

[Brett]

Eagle want to eat me anyway. Because they're scavengers. They only eat the dead. They don't accomplish anything within this thing. Like, do you want to make people sad or do you want to make them happy? I mean, the saddest funeral I've ever been talking about. Sad. Saddest funeral I've ever been at was I had a friend from high school who died in Iraq, right? And I mean, that was like, awful. And they played My Old friend by Tim McGraw. And I just bawled. I mean, it was like, so intense. So it's kind of like, what are you going for? And obviously that wasn't, I mean, choice, but what are you going.

[Alice]

It would be nice someone was sad that I was gone. You know, I mean. I mean, I don't want to make people sad, but, like, if someone was like, huh, I'm a little sad. Alice is gone.

[Brett]

I just want to get more upbeat, you know, maybe Shelter from the Storm instead of knocking on heaven's door. I don't know. But I just. I just. Yeah, like, I don't know. Bad out of hell, that is. How about that?

[Alice]

I think that is a great question. And I definitely, at least with this, I definitely want music. And I want it probably arranged by my friends. And I would love. I mean, I love acapella. I love the piano. I love stringed instruments. All of those things are beautiful because I truly think that music can, you know, touch and reach places that, like, the spoken word can't. So we definitely want music it's beautiful.

[Brett]

That you want your friends to do that arrangement. I want my friends to all be dead because I lived along.

[Alice]

You're like my son. Okay, There. I care more about my friends. I hope you guys get to mourn me because that means you live a long life.

[Brett]

One of my friends. He's weird. Was talking about the eulogy he'd give my funeral. I was like, what are you talking about? I'm totally outliving you. What do you like? What do you mean? There's no way. Anyway. Okay, well, we'd love to hear what songs you want to hear played at your funeral, so why don't you let us know? Prosecutor's podcast, gmail.com the best songs will read out. Okay. Prop me up against the jukebox. When I die, I want to go to heaven But I don't want to go tonight. Fill my boots up a little.

[Alice]

Not tonight.

[Brett]

Put a stiff drink in my hand.

[Alice]

We need to at least finish West Memphis three.

[Brett]

Yes. We had to finish West Memphis three. What's like, every time I'm in.

[Alice]

And we're gonna live forever.

[Brett]

Yeah, there you go. Every time we're in, I'm in turbulence. I'm always like, just let me dive. Or Alabama, just let me get back to Alabama. I can die there. Either playing fall apart. Once we get there, Just let me get there. So. Well, we're gonna do another episode on this, so join us, I don't know, next week, I guess, probably for an episode of Westminsters 3 and an episode of the Roanoke Mystery. But until then, I'm Brett.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Brett]

And we are the prosecutors. Now, I did I use their nicknames in a previous episode because I'm having some serious deja. I feel like I taught.

[Alice]

I went through some nicknames. What do you mean?

[Brett]

The nicknames they came up with for you. I feel like I used one of them. Did I not?

[Alice]

We have not recorded yet episode, like, for.

[Brett]

Well, I know we haven't, but didn't I use some of their words? Like, didn't I call you.

[Alice]

You mean before we record? What? What are you talking about? This is the first time I thought.

[Brett]

On the day we recorded, we recorded. The day we talked to them, we recorded a different episode, and I used one of the names.

[Alice]

I don't think you did because you called me the names when we were talking to them. So you said the words.

[Brett]

Oh, maybe that's it. Maybe that's why.

[Alice]

Zooming in, kids. So I don't think you actually did.

[Brett]

Gotcha. So they're all on the table is.

[Alice]

What you I think they're all on the table.

[Brett]

Okay.

[Alice]

It also can you believe I felt like crime con was so far away, but all of a sudden I'm like, crime con's right on the corner.

[Brett]

It's like around the corner.

[Alice]

I know because I don't have my act together yet, you know, like, I don't have tickets booked or anything. So. From 1578 to 1583, Gilbert organized three expeditions to the new world where he explored New England, the mid Atlantic, Newfoundland and Kate, is it Kate Breton?

[Brett]

Kate. Brett. Kate.

[Alice]

I don't know any breads, but I know a Brent Sorry I had to.

[Brett]

Sam link on that.

[Alice]

So it.

[Brett]

This summer, Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Summer of cinema is here. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Mission Impossible, Beverly Hills Cop, Good burger and transformation. Transformers Dark of the Moon. Bring the action with you and stream for free from all your favorite devices. Pluto TV stream now pay never sa.