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- [00:02]
Sarah James McLaughlin
From the waters of Lake Erie.
- [00:04]
Brett
It was raising flags. He said there's no way that that fish should weigh 7.9 pounds. It's just not big enough.
- [00:12]
Sarah James McLaughlin
To a nondescript office building in Richmond, Virginia, home to a 700 million dollar fund for children with special needs.
- [00:19]
Brett
If there was a cliche list of how to blow money that you just stole very quickly, this guy did all of them.
- [00:27]
Sarah James McLaughlin
To the ski slopes of Salt Lake City, where a former Olympic snowboarder landed on the FBI's most wanted list.
- [00:34]
Brett
Ryan Jim's wedding is one of those interesting norcos who have had two very successful careers, One legal and one illegal.
- [00:42]
Sarah James McLaughlin
We're pulling back the curtain on a fresh lineup of opportunists who stopped at nothing to get ahead. These are the stories of people who saw a loophole, a moment of weakness, a chance to get ahead and took it. I'm Host Sarah James McLaughlin. Join me for a new season of the opportunist on May 19th. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:22]
Brett
I'm Brett.
- [01:23]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [01:24]
Brett
And we are the Prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we conclude our look at the Roanoke mystery. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my nemesian co host, Alice.
- [02:26]
Alice
Hello, Brett. No idea what you said, but it sounded very fancy.
- [02:30]
Brett
You know, Porter from lit, it says that that means co host in Algonquin. Now, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that in the Algonquin language, they didn't have the word co host, but I'm gonna assume it's like co, you know, traveler or friend or partner or something like that. So it's good enough for me. It's good enough for me. I'll take it from now on.
- [02:51]
Alice
Isn't that what co host is, a traveler in this life?
- [02:54]
Brett
Oh, there you go. I love it.
- [02:56]
Alice
Way to go, Porter. Way to go, Porter. I like to encourage the next generation, Brett.
- [03:01]
Brett
And way to go. By the way, to Liditz Elementary School for winning track and field day. The news has made it all the way to Alabama. We know you crushed your competition. The other elementary schools, they had nothing for you. So congratulations to Lydditz on your victory. It will be written on the scrolls of immortality for all time, perhaps carved.
- [03:24]
Alice
In trees like the word Croatoan.
- [03:27]
Brett
There you go. People will be talking about it in 500 years, just like we're talking about this great mystery, the lost colony of Roanoke. And last time we sort of got through the timeline. I Will say this. You could do a dozen episodes on this. There's some great documentaries on this, some great podcast on this. You guys know I'm a big fan of Astonishing Legends. They did a couple episodes on this that were fantastic. We're doing two episodes. But if we had a history podcast we just. We'd be doing. This would be like West Memphis Three of history. That would be 20 episodes. You guys would learn things about trees you didn't even care about. How did they carve into the trees, what did that look like, etc. But we're not going to do that. And today we're going to spend most of the day talking about theories, because there are a lot you can imagine. A mystery this old still unsolved. It has generated a lot of different theories. I think the only thing we don't have are radioactive yetis, which is too bad, but little warm for yetis. Maybe Bigfoot. We may talk about Bigfoot.
- [04:28]
Alice
I don't know. I wasn't there.
- [04:30]
Brett
That's true. Maybe it was colder back then anyway. Okay, well, with that, I do want to thank the kids at Lidditz elementary again. Before we got started, I was showing the folks in the chat. We got a bunch of great artwork from the kids. Alice, I'll be sharing that with you as well. A bunch of thank you notes. Just, y' all are awesome and wonderful, and y' all are gonna do wonderful things, and good luck in wherever life takes you. And thank you for helping us to do this episode. So with that, Alice, I think it's time to dive in.
- [05:01]
Alice
Let's dive in.
- [05:02]
Brett
So one of the things that I think is interesting and is always debated is the state of the colony. I don't know if it's debated so much as misreported. So depending on what source you look at, you'll see some sources will treat this as one of those sort of the great mysteries where it's always the coffee is still on the table, it's still hot, Right? Breakfast was. Was ready to be eaten. It just appeared that people just up and vanished, as if they woke up that morning planning on doing their normal thing, and then suddenly they're gone. And so you'll get that. That white shows up and the whole place is just deserted. But otherwise it looks fine. It's literally just the people have vanished into thin air. And then other people will say no. Like the houses were broken down, or some people say the fort itself was taken down. Others will talk about things were dug up and sort of askew. All These other sort of descriptions of how the colony was found. And it's, I don't know, hard to say. Right. But fortunately, we do have the firsthand accounting, the report written by John White himself. So I'm going to read this to you so you know exactly how it was found to the extent you can understand the English of the late 1500s. And it is a little different, so bear with me. So here's what he describes. He sort of talks about. They come upon the colony, and as they're walking up to it, they see this Croatoan written into a tree. And he says, seated here means located or situated, according to a secret token agreed upon between them and me at my last departure from them, which was that in any ways they should not fail to write or carve on the trees or post of the doors the name of the place where they should be seated. For at my coming away, they were prepared to remove from Roanoke 50 miles into the Main. So this is interesting because I think this reinforces the idea that even as White was leaving a few years before, the colonists were already thinking about leaving. They weren't. We're definitely going to be here, but just in case, if anything happens, we'll do this. It was more like, hey, kind of planning on moving. And since we're planning on moving, let's agree upon this signal for you so you can find us. Therefore, at my departure from them in anno 1587, I willed them that if they should happen to be distressed in any of those places, that then they should carve over the letters or name a cross in this form. And it's a Maltese cross, which, you know, this is sort of just a fancy cross, but we found no such sign of distress. So they find the name, the place, but not the cross. Now, there's a couple things that are interesting about this. Number one, I don't necessarily know how effective this was, because if, let's say you moved to Croatoan 50 miles into the Main, and then something happened, are you really gonna go back to Roanoke and carve the cross? Are you gonna have the opportunity to do that? I would think maybe you could carve the cross if things were getting really bad while you're at Roanoke. But I feel like if anything went wrong once you left Roanoke, there's not gonna be a cross. Alice seems to agree with me on this.
- [08:11]
Alice
No, I think that's right. And I keep thinking about that, you know, we'll get to the Croton and. And if they, in fact, had to run really fast. I don't think a cross would have taken very long to actually put into the wood. Because I've thought about this, like, what did they mean to put across? And they didn't have time to put across unless it was like an actual bear chasing them. I think they would have had time to put across. So this was a good plan, but also a good code, right? That no one would know unless they. Because you don't want to let the people around you know that you're in distress. Because if you're in distress here, you're going to maybe in distress at the next place, which makes you probably an easier target there. Right over here, you had a four maybe if you go to the next place. So you. You wanted a code that couldn't be deciphered by others who maybe wanted harm to you.
- [08:52]
Brett
Okay, so why it continues Having well considered of this, we passed toward the place where they were left in sundry houses. But we found the houses taken down and the place very strongly enclosed with a high palisado of great trees with Courtenays and flankers, very fort like. And one of the chief trees or posts at the right side of the entrance had the bark taken off. And five foot from the ground in fair capital letters was graven Croatoan, without any cross or sign of distress. So a couple things here. So they built this fort with these. You can imagine just these massive tree trunks sort of as the palisade surrounding it, to protect them from any sort of hostiles. The houses were much less sturdily constructed. They could be taken down fairly easily. And so what they're doing, and this gives you an idea of the situation, when they left, they had enough time to take down the houses. So they're not torn down, they're not burned down, they're just removed. They sort of took them apart and then took them away, is what it seems like happened here. The palisade remains because getting those. I mean, the whole point of making it is to make it strong and fortified. Hard to get that out and move it. So probably the thought was, we'll take what we can easily carry and then we'll rebuild the fort wherever we go.
- [10:14]
Alice
So that was my question. Was it just taken down or was it taken down and carried away? Or these like constructible houses, manufactured houses, in a sense, so that they can take it with them to the next place, Croatoan or anywhere else.
- [10:27]
Brett
I think that's it. They could be taken down and carried away very easily.
- [10:32]
Alice
And this is really important for Knowing because if they had carried this away, remember, we're looking for anything that shows us they went somewhere, right. So we would expect to find some remains of the structures or some sort of clue of where they've been. If they've been able to take things with them, rather than they just fled into the woods. And if they took their houses, I would think they took other things, their tools, their whatever, what have you. In other words, now I'm thinking, okay, if I'm looking for them, I should be able to find more things than just say skull and bones. I should be able to find things that indicated their life there.
- [11:05]
Brett
Well, there's more stuff. So they did find things. And basically it was stuff that would be difficult to carry. So they say we entered into the palisado where we found. Which I assume is the word for like a palisade at the time anyways, where he found many bars of iron, two pigs of lead, four Y fowlers, iron sacker, shot and such, like heavy things thrown here and there, almost overgrown with grass and weeds. So that gives you some idea of the time. And there's going to see more of that in a minute. From thence, we went along by the waterside towards the point of the creek to see if we could find any of their boats. Or Penisi and Panisi are the boats that you use my understanding, at least that's what you call the boat that you take from a large ship to shore. So you have small boats, but then if you have these larger boats that are used for, you know, making landfall when you can't, obviously you can't bring a huge ship all the way in to land. But we could perceive no sign of them, nor any of the last falcons and small ordnance which were left with them in my departure from them. So these boats and the smaller ordinance, the smaller weapons were taken by someone at our return from the creek. Some. Some of our sailors meeting us told us they had found where diverse chests had been hidden and long since digged up again and broken up. And much of the goods in them spoiled and scattered about. But nothing left of such things as the savages knew any use of undefaced. So they had these chests, everybody had these chests. And they had stuff in the chest, right? And they brought that with them from England. They brought it on the ships and they brought it into the colony. And what they would do is they would bury the chest and. And they could dig them up if they needed stuff out of them. But the idea was if you bury them, other people don't know where they are. And so people can't dig them up and steal from you. Well, it seems like, and this is interesting, given everything else, that a lot of these chests were just left and that eventually the Indians, the local natives, came in after they had left, presumably because there are no bodies, right, and dug these chests up and went through them, and if there was anything they could use, they took it with them. Everything else they just kind of left laying, like, near the chest. And he continues on with this. Presently, Captain Cook and I went to the place which was the end of an old trench made two years past by Captain Amadis, where we found five chests that had been carefully hidden to the planters. And in the same chest, three were my own. And about the place, many of the things spoiled and broken and my books torn from their covers, the frames of some of my pictures and maps rotten and spoiled with rain, and my armor almost eaten through with rust. This could be no other but the deed of the savages, our enemies at Dassamangwipuk, who had watched the departure of our men to Croatoan, and as soon as they were departed, digged up every place where they suspected anything to be buried. But although it much grieved me to see such spoil of my goods, yet on the other side, I greatly joyed that I had safely found a certain token of their safe being at Croatoan, which is the place where Monteo was born. And the savages of the land are our friends. So this is why he's happy about this. So the people around Crono, they'd had issues with, they had had some wars with them, they killed each other. And so they figured those people came in, they dug all the chests up, they stole what they could. But Croatoan, Monteo, remember, he was one of the Indians who went with the colonists back to England and was a translator for them and was a friend of them and everything else. And Croatoan is where he was from. So the idea is that this is really good news because they should be fine. They're going somewhere with someone who knows the land. This is a good sign. There's no sign of distress. We'll just sail on to Croatoan and find them. Unfortunately, as we know, they'd had all these anchor lines break. There was a storm, and they just couldn't get there and ended up not getting there for a very long time. No one went to Croatoan island for decades, really. So they never were able to check and see whether or not. That's where they went. Also, weren't able to go and say to those people, hey, we got it. Glad you're good. Supply ships will be coming. Because that was one thing they didn't have. Remember the original Roanoke colonists? Quote, unquote? Colonists, the hundred men who showed up for that first place, they were about to leave, too. And they only stayed because goods did show up. Right. And the same thing happened at Jamestown. Jamestown, which is settled a few decades later, had a real rough go of it the first winter, and a whole bunch of people died. And they were days away from abandoning the colony when a resupply ship showed up. And in this case, you've had several winters that have passed and nobody ever showed up. And so these people apparently had to do what they thought they needed to do. But you're seeing it has been some amount of time since they left. But because everything's overgrown, things are rotted, the armor is rusted through, so it looks like whatever happened, happened a while ago.
- [16:07]
Alice
Right. And I've been thinking about this. The happiness of finding three of his own chests that are spoiled. Obviously, we don't want your thing spoiled and, you know, rummaged through by other people. But that's also good because it means there wasn't a fight for it. It's like this is all was left. This is almost what you expect if something's been abandoned while it's there. They know. They've probably seen them dig and bury things here. So if they're gone, there's no one here to protect it. Might as well go loot and see what is in there for us to find. Now, we've said this word a lot. This place, Croatoan, it was carved on the post before they left, just like they had planned on saying. You know, maybe that's where they went. But the thing with the word Croatoan is it's not just connected to the lost city of Roanoke. It's actually been allegedly connected to a lot of historical mysteries. And maybe it's just that this was the original mystery and it's been the thing that is like, Roman Empire for a lot of people, so that it has now become part of other people's lores, because it has just, you know, rattled people's minds what has happened to the Roanoke colony. But let me tell you about Croatoan. So allegedly, Croatoan was one of the last words that Edgar Allan Poe, we did an episode on him, by the way, said before he died. Now, he was an Interesting man, to say the least. So this is according to historycollection.com so in 1888, the stagecoach robber Black Bart carved the word into the wall of his cell before he was released from prison, and he was never seen or heard from again. Now, it's also been alleged that it was found in Amelia Earhart's journal after she disappeared in 1937. Another fantastic mystery that we've covered as well. Now, the last bed that horror writer Ambrose Bierce slept in before he disappeared in Mexico in, interestingly, also had the word Croatoan carved into one of the bedposts. And then in 1921, Croatoan was written on the last page of the logbook of the ship Carol A. Deering when it crashed on Cape Hatteras near Croatoan island. And the ship was missing its entire crew. So is this just a coincidence, or is this the Bermuda Triangle of words?
- [18:24]
Brett
You know, I feel like the word allegedly is carrying a lot of water on this.
- [18:28]
Alice
I gotta dive into each of these.
- [18:30]
Brett
I know I have some pretty serious doubts about this just because I will say we did a lot of research on Edgar Allan Poe, read a lot of stuff about him, including books from, like, the 1800s that were very difficult to read. I don't remember ever seeing this.
- [18:45]
Alice
I never saw Croton in that. And we did a lot of research on Amelia Earhart.
- [18:50]
Brett
That's true.
- [18:50]
Alice
I don't remember anything about Croatoan coming up in her logbook. Now, I.
- [18:54]
Brett
How did they find her logbook exactly.
- [18:57]
Alice
If they couldn't find her? There you go. Like, I think there's a lot of interesting things in there. Like, I can imagine it. It sounds amazing, right? Because you're disappearing into. It's the same type of story, right? You're disappearing into the void. And what is the void? A word for Croatoan. But I don't know that we ever found her logbook. If we found it, it would probably, no pun intended, be very waterlogged, and I would not think that you'd be able to see much. And what we do have, though, are audio. You know, when she was talking and then she disappeared, Crotone was not part of that dialogue.
- [19:30]
Brett
Now, look, we're definitely doing the Carolee Deering at some point because it is an awesome ghost ship story. So we'll just let you know. Now, it could have said Croton because they were just writing down where they were because they did disappear right around this area. So that one may actually be true. But I don't know about the rest of them. Ambrose Beers, it's an interesting story too. Like he fascinating guy, he wrote what was the name of the story? Like the incident on something bridge which some of you probably watched. When I was in either high school or like late elementary school, like eighth grade, we watched like a PBS dramatization of this story and it's about like a guy in the Civil War and he's about to be hanged and he escapes and like all this stuff happens. He was a really great writer. He also wrote the Devil's Dictionary which is fantastic. It's basically humorous definitions for words. They aren't real. So fascinating guy, but also just vanished without a trace in Mexico. So what a way to go.
- [20:30]
Alice
So those are some of the unusual aspects. I mean the entire Roanoke story is obviously unusual. So that leads us to the question, what happened? What are the theories? And you can imagine with multi hundred year old mysteries there's going to be theories galore and if anyone can solve it, I do believe it could be the Lititz Elementary School kids. So let's dive into some of the theories that they have brought up to us. We've researched as well. And then Brett and I have not talked about what we think happened. I've thought a lot about this. I don't know that we're gonna solve it today, but we.
- [21:11]
Brett
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- [22:07]
Alice
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- [23:30]
Brett
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- [24:20]
Alice
So most researchers do agree that some sort of crisis caused the colonists to leave the settlement, split into small groups and disperse. Now what exactly caused that and their fates when they left are still open for debate. And that makes sense, right? If there were some sort of crisis, why leave? That's a known location. A supply ship is supposed to come, but something must have happened where they could not wait for the supply ship anymore if it were going to come at all, because we were three years delayed. But what was that crisis? Was it simply a slow running out of supplies? Or did something happen? And if something happened, where's the cross in terms of the code that they had come up with. So let's start with the first theory. So did the colonists join local Indian tribes? Now one popular theory of course is that colonists were unable to make it on their own without adequate food and resources. And we know that to be somewhat true. Right? This is why they had to go back for supplies. They hadn't figured how to work the land, how to hunt. They needed to depend on trade, they needed to depend on others. And so one theory is that they joined the Croatoans or other local tribes. Now this theory was supported by various accounts of settlers who claim to have seen or heard of European looking people living amongst the natives. So one Zuniga map drawn by a Jamestown settler named Francis Nelson in 1607 documents four men that came from Roanoke living among the Iroquois tribe. In the early 1600s to the middle 1700s, European colonists claimed to have met gray eyed Indians who claimed to have been descended from white settlers. In 1696, French Huguenots left records of meeting also blonde haired blue eyed Indians when they came to the Tar River. There are even more sightings of European looking native people. In 1709, John Lawson in his book A New Voyage to Carolina records Croatoans living on Croatoan island who claim that they used to live on Roanoke island. And they claim to have white ancestors. Sounds like maybe that could be our colony here. Now this theory would also explain why they had carved the word Croatoan before abandoning the settlement. The Crotons were one of the tribes that the settlers had friendly relationships with. So it's not completely out of the question. And especially if they were in some sort of crisis, they needed help, it makes sense that they would go towards a friendly group of people who could potentially save them, help them. Now is that likely though?
- [26:52]
Brett
Now I'll say this, you know, if you study this period in history at all, the. I don't want, I don't know why this is, but one of the most popular stories that settlers would talk about was seeing natives who appeared to be white, blue eyed, blond. You get the whole thing right, like it doesn't matter if you're near Roanoke or not. Like you just, you see this again and again and it pops up a lot. If you look like the whole like ancient aliens type thing or like ancient civilizations, abandoned civilizations, Atlantis, all that stuff. People are always pointing to these sightings as evidence of some sort of settlement of non native peoples in the Americas before the Europeans arrived. And honestly, I don't really buy most of them, I feel like it was just a, it was just a popular thing to say. Now it is interesting. These are interesting stories. The sort of supposed first hand accounts of talking to people who said their ancestors lived on Roanoke and you know, they're somehow related to the settlers are interesting. And you know, there's at least a basis for this here that you don't necessarily have in some of these other stories that you see in various places. But I don't know, I am, I have some skepticism about some of these sightings. But we'll come back to this because obviously this is an important theory and.
- [28:13]
Alice
I think you end up seeing what you want to see, right? And environment changes a lot of things. The eyes that you're seeing, the intonation that you're hearing, it could be very well that they're not seeing anything or, I don't know, genetics is like kind of crazy. It's completely possible that absent Roanoke colonists integrating with the tribes, that there is some genetic, you know, past or lineage of different tribes that may have physical characteristics that may look European that have nothing to do with the Roanoke tribe members themselves. Because remember, there are a lot of settlers in this area. They've been coming for a while. The Spanish, the English, the French. You know, it's not just the Roanoke, 100 of them, and it's going to be fewer than that because there are some men, women, children.
- [29:00]
Brett
So the second theory is that the colonists were slaughtered basically by native tribes who were upset that they were there. And this is actually the theory that was believed by the English for centuries based on a claim by Captain John Smith of Jamestown fame. So in 1607, he attempted to figure out what happened to the Lost Colony. We talked about this before. This is something the Jamestown folks are really interested in. And he, if you've seen Pocahontas, as you know, was friends with Chief Powhatan, which was a local chief who controlled a very large area. And he told Smith that he and some of his warriors had murdered all the colonists because the colonists decided to join a tribe that refused to ally with Powhatan. And to prove the story, he showed Smith several items he took from the colonists, including a musket barrel, a brass mortar and a pestle. William Strachey recorded this tale in the History of Travail into Virginia, Britannia. The problem with this theory is there are no bodies and there's no archaeological evidence ever discovered in Roanoke to support this claim. And you see this and you may think, wow, 600 years ago, how would you even find that, you know, there's evidence from the Jamestown settlement of cannibalism. They found bodies that have evidence of cannibalism on them. And you would think if this many people, over a hundred people, had been slaughtered, they would have found something. And in recent years, author and scholar Brandon Fulham has taken a deeper dive into this theory and has hypothesized that the massacre could have been referring to the 15 settlers initially left behind after the second expedition and not the later settlement. And remember the. They did find evidence that those 15 men had been killed, including one skeleton that showed signs of being attacked by the natives. And Powhatan was an interesting guy. If you study this time period and you see the various tribes, there were many different reactions to the colonists. There were some tribes that were hostile, other tribes that wanted to trade, wanted to help out. And then there were the really sort of sophisticated people like Powhatan. And Powhatan saw an opportunity that if he allied with the English, they would give him the weapons he needed. Because he had been basically in a constant war with all these other tribes around the area. And by allying with the English, he was able to basically take over the whole area that wasn't controlled by the English. Obviously, long term didn't work out, but initially it was very beneficial to him. So, you know, he's in such a good relationship with John Smith, he feels comfortable saying, oh, yeah, you know, maybe I killed a bunch of guys before, but it's cool because we're friends now, right? So it's interesting how this went down, but you can imagine him, this is totally consistent. If the English were joining a tribe that was his enemy, it would be absolutely necessary to, for him to wipe them out because he recognized the danger that they posed with their technology. I mean, their abilities with metal and firearms and everything else were just so far and beyond what the local tribes could do. So if, if they're your enemy, that's a problem. So I think this, this really fits. I do think it's interesting the idea that it was actually the 15, which makes more sense because it's also fewer people. So I think you could, you could do that more effectively. But an interesting theory and certainly a possibility.
- [32:45]
Alice
Yeah, the, the 15 sound, sound like, you know, we always say the best theories have some sort of strain of truth or some, some truth where it outgrows, but then it can bubble into something greater than what it really happened. Okay, let's keep going with theories though. Another theory is that the Spanish murdered the colonists. Now, remember about the Spanish and the English, remember, before the English got their own colony or attempts at colonies, they were just raiding Spanish ships, right? This is a great way to start war. And indeed, at the time this colony disappeared, the Spanish and the English were at war. Now, one of the main issues triggering the war was this colonization. So this could have been a strategic move on the part of the Spanish. The Spanish did have a presence in the Americas at the time, and they were known to have troops in Florida. So people who believe this theory point to the fact that the Spanish had a tendency to be on the offensive when other countries settled in the Americas. They had previously attacked forts in both South Carolina and Florida. And here is another opportunity. You have a ship delayed. They're not coming back. They know that there's a war happening over there. There's only 100 people left here. We know that they're not very good at living off the land. They're waiting for supplies that are not coming anytime soon. They're weak. Why not take them over? But this is not a likely theory for several reasons. First, like we said earlier, no bodies were ever found. Second, the Spanish were still looking for Roanoke in 1600 years after the colony disappeared. And lastly, those houses, remember, that we talked about, they weren't burned down or attacked or ripped to shreds as if attacked by, say, the Spanish. They were dismantled orderly. And this is what White saw when he saw when he came back in 1590, indicating some sort of evacuation, an orderly evacuation at that. Not a violent attack. So more like I'm going to take down my house, move on to the next place where I can set up my house again, not coming in the middle of the night. Spanish coming to burn down their. Their houses, you know, kill them with spears, what have you. There's no indication of that sort of an attack.
- [34:54]
Brett
Look, I didn't even consider the Spanish, I think, until we talked to the kids at Liditz. They brought up the Spanish. I was like, oh, yeah, Spanish. They were around. And I think if they had found Roanoke, they would have destroyed it. But I don't think you see evidence that they did. I think that's the problem. And honestly, all these theories, these are all kind of sexy theories on the surface, but the problem with them, the key problem, is there's no evidence to support them. So, you know, what are you gonna do? And the next one, we're gonna talk about cannibalism. So there are two theories surrounding cannibalism. The first, the settlers who were lacking adequate food supply, resorted to cannibalism to survive. The problem with this is it doesn't really make sense that the entire colony would have been gone. You would assume that some of them would have survived. And we saw this in Jamestown, as that happened in Jamestown. And there also were no remains found. So even in Jamestown, once again, where they are absolutely engaged in cannibalism, they're then burying the bodies. You know, the bodies can be found to this day, and you would expect the same thing. And Roanoke, they have dug the whole island up looking for stuff. And they found things. I mean, they found some interesting stuff from that time period, but what they haven't found are any bodies, certainly no bodies that have evidence of cannibalism. Now, there is an explanation for the lack of bodies found, which is pretty cool, albeit unlikely. So the Native Americans believed in a. And this, honestly, this was more sort of the northern tribes than this area. But nevertheless, we're just going to go with it because I like this part. So believed in a spirit in the form of a beast called the Wendigo. And when people resort to eating flesh, as in the case of cannibalism, their bodies could be taken over by Wendigo. And so the idea is that if the people of Roanoke resorted to cannibalism and became Windigos, then they might still be alive to these days roaming the woods of North Carolina in the form of Wendigo, which is awesome. That's what I'm just going to spoiler. That's what I think happened. That's what I'm going with. Sorry, we'll just keep going. But it's terrifying.
- [37:04]
Alice
That's more of an October. That's more of an October sort of case rather than end of the school year.
- [37:10]
Brett
So the other theory, and sort of the wilder theory that was popular at the time because of the whole notion of, like the savage natives, was that the settlers were kidnapped and cannibalized. But once again, unlikely. There's no evidence of it. There's no evidence of any tribes in the area being cannibals. And you would think, once again, remember the tribes, none of them not none of them, none of them strong, but they had the same sorts of relationships with each other as you see in any groups of people anywhere in the world. So a lot of them didn't like each other. And if there was a rumor floating around that tribe X had eaten the colonists, you can bet Tribe Y would have told Jamestown, for instance. Yeah, it was those guys. They totally did it. They ate everybody. Right? But they didn't do that. So I think the chances of that kind of cannibalism are low.
- [38:00]
Alice
So another theory is that the settlement became infected with a disease that they had never encountered and therefore didn't have the immunity to fight. And we know of this having happened many times during colonization. Right. If this did happen, the healthy may have left the sick at the colony and ventured off on their own in order to either avoid getting sick themselves or just making a new settlement because that one was lost. And once they had left the settlement, it would be very difficult to trace where they went or what happened to them. But the problem with this is, again, we have the houses that are taken down, so you would think you would find some indication of those who were left behind, whether that they died from illness, they were buried, or some sort of structure still erected for them to stay there. And the other thing is, there is the Croatoan being carved into the post. That doesn't quite, you know, explain why that was put there. If some subset of the group left to go somewhere.
- [38:57]
Brett
Yeah. Once again, where are the bodies? Because the first people who died of this mystery disease would have been buried. That's what would have happened to them. They would have been buried there and you would have had some evidence of it. And the Europeans were susceptible to new diseases, just like the natives. But the European diseases tended to not be fatal in this way. So a syphilis, for instance, was a disease that came from the Americas to Europe, but the diseases that came from Europe to the Americas tended to be the kind that killed you. So smallpox, for instance, was. The native population had no immunity to smallpox and would just wipe out entire areas, the people, because smallpox is such a virulent disease. But you didn't see that so much going towards Europeans. There's no examples that I know of of any virulent diseases like smallpox hitting the Europeans when they arrived. Yes, they did get diseases, but they weren't like that. So if this is the disease, it's a disease that would have been localized to Roanoke. Nobody else ever experienced this. And I just think it's unlikely. So another theory, it's just kind of a take on the first one is they moved somewhere, but it wasn't Croatoan. They went somewhere different. In 2012, a 400 year old map called Le Virginia Pars, which was drawn by John White, was re examined by researchers for the first time. They looked underneath a patch on the map. So basically now you have these maps, paper is not easy to come by. This probably wasn't actually Paper. It was probably some other sort of, like, vellum or something like that. If you get a tear in them, you don't just throw them away. You patch them. And so everything has a patch on it. So if there's a patch on it, you wouldn't think anything of it, right? Well, there was a patch on this map, and somebody decided to use technology to look underneath this patch. And it turned out that there hadn't been a tear. This wasn't actually a repair, even though it looked like it. Instead, they found a marking that appear to be the sign for a fort. And this fort was located in Berdy County, North Carolina, an area where mysterious relics from the Elizabethan era have been found during excavations. And the speculation is that the colonists left Roanoke and went to this new location, possibly to avoid Spanish incursion. And the word Croatoan on the post was bluff. That if the Spanish showed up and they saw that, they would think they went to Croatoan island, and they would go to Croatoan Island. They wouldn't find them there, and they would assume, oh, I guess they've all been lost, they've all died, whatever, no more English. And that the plan had always been to go to this location, that White knew that, and he kept the secrecy. Even in the report that he wrote, he did not include where they actually went because he did not want that report to fall into the wrong hands. A spy on the ship to sell them out to the Spanish, whatever, that he knew that, and that's why he put that fort on the map and then covered up with a patch so that nobody would know it.
- [41:57]
Alice
And maybe that's why he didn't try that hard to go to Croatoan. Maybe when it was difficult to get there, he's like, nah, it's okay. They're probably there. Maybe not. We'll try again later. You would think that part of the story has always been very concerning to me. Wouldn't he want to go see family members, for example, you know, see the rest of his colonists? It seemed a little bit like he moved on very quickly. Maybe it's because he knew they weren't there at all.
- [42:21]
Brett
So it is interesting. There have been these sort of excavations in this area, and they're always finding things. I mean, on Croatoan island at Roanoke, you know, they found this ring, which absolutely came from that period. They're able to tell that. But the problem is there was a lot of trade between the natives and the English. The English always brought usually small Relatively inexpensive, but impossible to make goods that the natives would trade. Like, here's some food for the ring. Right. So it's difficult to say, do you find those items in those areas because the whole colony went there, or is it just an example of trade? You know, when you find a copper ring amongst otherwise artifacts from the native period, what does that tell you? Does it tell you, well, the natives and the colonists, they joined together and they live together in harmony, and that's where they were living and that's why you find that, or is it just. No, they traded with each other? It's impossible to say. Right. So a lot of times you'll see these stories and they'll say things like, roanoke mystery solved. Ring like, link to this found. And then if you look any deeper, it's like, okay, no, probably not so hard to say. Okay, another favorite theory, Witches. So one of the, shall we say, more out there theories, I guess, is that the settlers were killed by witches living in the woods in North Lina. Yes, you heard that, right. Witches. So there had been stories told by the native tribes in the area that witches lived in the woods and used black magic to hurt those who. Who were not welcome.
- [44:04]
Alice
Now, this is sounding a lot like West Memphis three.
- [44:08]
Brett
Yeah, exactly. I mean, this, to me, this is like. This is the story you tell the colonists, much like you would tell your children to keep them from, like, leaving their island. Like, oh, you should really stay here, not coming to our woods, because they're totally witches. If you come and you come into our area, the witches will get you. So stay on your island. Colonists don't go to the woods. Lots of witches, right? That's what it seems like to me personally. But who knows, right? There's also sort of the reverse of this, that the local tribes saw the English as somehow supernaturally evil and decided to execute all of them. Though once again, there are plenty of reasons that the native tribes and the English were getting in fights. They didn't need to be witches in order to do it. You would have seen evidence of it, and there was no evidence of it. So while I think witches is a powerful theory and one that deserves serious consideration, probably wasn't witches.
- [45:01]
Alice
And I know that hurts your heart to say that probably not witches. But it's okay. There are other sexy theories we can talk about because there are a variety of supernatural theories to explain the strange disappearance of the colonists and what we always said. Yes, first rule, Occam's razor. What seems most likely. But when you have a 400-year-old mystery that has not been solved. Sometimes it might just be the extraordinary. So none of these theories are supported by any evidence, but still many people believe them. And part of the thing about supernatural events is maybe there isn't really any evidence of supernatural. That's what makes them extraordinary and supernatural in and of themselves. So in addition to the Wendigo, the Croatoans held many other supernatural beliefs that some speculate were the cause of the missing settlement. So the Croatoan belief system included a spirit on the island that had this power to absorb humans into the landscape. And if this spirit were somehow offended or angered, it would turn people into part of its landscape. Trees, animals, stones, anything as a part of its land. So if the colonists were somehow angering the spirits, exploiting the resources, abusing the land, anything that was against the nature of, you can see how they could have angered the spirit. Now, this would mean that the people of Roanoke didn't disappear at all. It means that they're still there to this day. They're just part of the landscape. And we've been looking in the wrong place all along. We shouldn't be looking for bodies. We should be looking for trees and stones and other things that they've been turned into. Now, the crow Toan believed in other types of supernatural things, not just the spirit that could have absorbed them into the land. They also believed in the reptilian devil of the woods, which was an evil spirit that could attach itself to people. This spirit made people violent, greedy and paranoid. Might just be human nature, I don't know. But the Crotons believed that the reptilian spirit had possessed the settlers once they started turn on each other. And after Whitehead left for England to retrieve more supplies. Now, let me step back for a second because you might be thinking reptilian devil, that didn't happen. What have we always done in history when we are trying to explain human nature?
- [47:21]
Brett
Blame it on the devil.
- [47:22]
Alice
Blame it on the devil. But also allegories, right? There are monsters, there are devils and whatnot. Because what's described that the devil does to them here absolutely happens. What? Colonists turning on each other, becoming greedy, you know, every man for himself. You could see that happening. That very well may have happened. And so there may be some truth in this. It may not be a reptilian devil, or it may be, but what they're describing as having happen. That sounds very human nature. And you can imagine if we're down to the last bread, the last whatever morsels of food that can keep you alive. It can become very Lord of the Flies very soon.
- [47:57]
Brett
Yeah, and I was gonna say history collection, which we will link to, has some great theories. This is one of them. They didn't leave any of them out. You know, Reptilians. I love it. Probably not Reptilians, but you never know. It's a possibility. And, hey, they ain't solved in 500 years. So you got to start thinking about the extraordinary. But what is not extraordinary and what is, in fact, entirely ordinary and natural is the next theory. Aliens. That's right. Aliens could have abducted the colonists, and this would explain basically everything, I think, really, they would have just beamed up the houses, all of it. Right. Just in one go. And that way, maybe the lead was.
- [48:38]
Alice
Too heavy to beam up.
- [48:39]
Brett
There you go. Exactly. Lead. It's heavy.
- [48:41]
Alice
I mean, it's kind of like a vacuum cleaner. Like, everything that can get lifted up gets lifted, but, like, the heavy stuff, you know, stays behind.
- [48:47]
Brett
Exactly. So they abducted the colonists. You know, maybe the columns were having a rough time of it, and they're flying around. They see them. They said to abduct them. I don't really know why, but I feel like there's been an ancient aliens episode on the list. Colony of Roanoke. Almost positive there has been. So could have happened. Could have happened. Can't rule out aliens. Viable theory would explain the lack of bodies. It actually is only one of the few theories. Not the only theory, but one of the few theories that actually explains the lack of bodies. They were beamed up by the aliens. So there you go. All right. So if it's not aliens, could it be a conspiracy? So not only is this the first American mystery, it's also the first American conspiracy. And there is a conspiracy theory that people in the court remember. Raleigh, favorite of the Queen. She may or may not have been having some sort of romantic tryst with him. He obviously had a lot of influence. Eventually, when Elizabeth died, he actually gets locked in the Tower of London for a while because King James I hated him. Right. So there were people who did not like Raleigh. So the theory is the people who really didn't like Raleigh sabotaged the colony with the intent of discrediting him and making him lose his claim to land in the New World. And with the colony destroyed, they sprung their trap to try and finally bring him down. But Raleigh was a favorite of the Queen, and what she decided to do in order to protect him was to cover it up. And by covering up the details of what happened, she left it as a mystery. And so no one could say definitively that the colony had been destroyed. And what's interesting about this is there is at least some truth of it though, from Raleigh's side, because as long as the colonists were alive, remember, Raleigh had to plant a colony within five years or something, he would lose the right to the land. So Raleigh had no interest and definitively proving the colony had been destroyed. So that expedition, we talked about this, there was an expedition to find the colonists. They didn't really look that hard. They ended up just looking for gold and for the city of El Dorado and that sort of stuff. Well, that was Raleigh's expedition. And the idea is he didn't really want to look that hard because as long as it was a mystery, there was still a possibility that they were alive and living somewhere, and therefore his claim remained intact. So the conspiracy probably didn't actually go down the way some people might claim. But there was some interest in keeping this a mystery, and some of that might have kept us from finding out what happened to this day. Which brings us to theories of our own. Alice, it's only been 500 years, but the time has come to solve this case. I think. I believe you can do it. Guys. We want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts, Silver Linings Handbook. And you know, we love it because we've been on it several times. Jason Blair is the host and he is one of the best interviewers in the business. And he's not just talking to flashy people and podcasters and those sorts of boring types like Alice and I. He's talking to people who are really involved in these cases, like Kimberly Loring. We covered the case of Ashley Loring, heavy runner, a 20 year old native woman who went missing near Browning, Montana. And Jason gave Kimberly the opportunity to give her sister a voice and call on those responsible for her disappearance to bring her home. And that's the kind of thing you're going to hear on Jason's podcast. Silver Linings Handbook has the best interviews, the best conversations, and always gets to the heart of what is most important in true crime, and that is the victims and the people seeking justice.
- [52:38]
Alice
It's true. This podcast has something for everyone. The areas that Jason focuses on have included, well, being, mental health, law and criminal justice system, true crime, religion, society. Truly anything that is interesting, that can inspire, he covers. And what we feel makes the podcast different is that it's really not scripted at all. Jason uses the same natural curiosity you would have sitting in the living room or around a campfire with a new and exciting person you had just met. Jason is a former journalist who worked at the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Washington Post and other newspapers. You'll quickly see how this weekly podcast of interesting people in interesting walks of life that these are conversations that inspire and interesting conversations with interesting people. You've got to listen today. Brett and I do all the time. So subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some ca? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto prices. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket.
- [53:49]
Brett
Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Cashly Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [54:05]
Alice
Let's do it. All right, so I have to say the Lititz kids, y' all did an incredible job with your theories. We actually added a bunch of theories thanks to you guys. I think it was one of you or maybe your teacher who said what, no aliens. So we definitely added a few in there for you. Thank you for helping us think outside the box because I truly think that if you have a 500 year old mystery, you have to start thinking outside the box. Now. I think a lot of the reason there's been mystery for so long is there is an element of wanting to continue to claim this land. And so if you don't dig too far, if you can just have the hope of one survivor out there, you still have your colony. With that said, I don't think there was some bloody attack, some crisis of the moment. I think more likely it was a slow dispersion of people, which is probably why it's so hard to put your finger on what exactly happened. Because I think as you would have in any sort of situation where the captain leaves, the person who is in charge leaves and they he's supposed to come back in nine months. A year goes by, another year goes by, another year goes by. I don't think they ever made it really past the first year. I think after nine months pass, aware of the fact that he may never come back, people start having a little bit of disagreement on what is the next step. When you don't have a strong head, I think that's what happens. And so you may just have family groups going off. So we saw this for example in the mountain, a bunch of our mountaineering expeditions right in Dyatlov Pass. We have indications that people make decisions what they think is best for them, whether it's to go back to a different camp or to go forward or to stay where they are, to wait out certain things. I think it was simply, we don't know if we're going to have enough resources to last very long. And some people thought, no, no, no, he's going to come back. Let's wait. And so some group of people left, and I think that it was a relatively large group. That's why they took down houses and said, you know what, we're going to go over here. When you guys, the rest of you are ready, you come on over to Croatoan as well. So they carve Croatoan. I think at some point, maybe another group wanted to leave, and for whatever reason, it was maybe a little more emergent at that point, because now you really don't have source. Maybe they know that they are no longer 100 men, women, children, strong. Now it's maybe a subset, maybe 20 to 30 people left. And those who are around recognize a weaker colony. And before they're attacked. And it looks like they will be decimated, perhaps they did run in the middle of night. So there may have been kind of a slow bleed of colonists and then something faster that precipitated it. But I don't think it was a situation where they were all killed. I think they're somewhere. I think some of them could have made it to Croatoan. I think some of them could have integrated into the tribes in the area. And I think there is an element of multiple theories of what happened to everyone at the end of the day. Yeah, you think it's witches, huh?
- [56:59]
Brett
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely witches. Definitely witches. Or aliens. Look, I mean, I think there's an element definitely of Occam's razor in this case, where he had a group of people who said, hey, if we leave, we'll carve a name where we're going in a tree. And then they showed up and they were gone. And there was name carved in the tree they probably went to where they carved into the tree. Right. I mean, that seems to be, like, the easiest answer. And I'll say this. I don't think it's provable. I mean, it may be provable eventually. DNA technology and more archaeological digs. And we just had that story recently about this iron scale, or whatever it's called, that was found on Croatoan island, but I think essentially, so white left in August of 1587. I think the colonists moved very quickly. Like, I don't even think they waited long at all. And the reason for that is I think if they had stayed through the winter, some of them would have died because the winters were brutal for the English, because they just weren't used to it. They weren't prepared. They arrived too late to really plan anything. They would have been depending on the good graces of local tribes who they'd already made very angry. So right after they got there, one of their people is murdered by one of the local tribes who's still mad about one of the attacks the last group had made. So I think they decided fairly quickly, let's go to Croatoan. And I think Manteo was a big reason for that, because they knew they could go to Croatoan. They had some allies there who would help them out, get them through the winter. So I think they went to Croatoan Island. But then I think. I think really what Alice just described happened, but I think it happened on Croatoan Island. I think they got there, they made it through the first winter with the help of the locals, but then White never shows up, and days pass and months pass and. And more people are like, you know, I don't want to do this. And they start to leave. Maybe they move to different places, they integrate with the local tribes. And I think basically all these people ended up either leaving or integrating with local tribes, and that's what happened to them. It's still a little strange to me that they've never found any bodies, like. Because the problem with my theory is if they move to Croatoan island and they set up a little settlement, you should have found bodies. You still should find bodies, right buried there. Like, they're firing. They're finding this iron scale, whatever. That's what I keep calling it. I think that's what it's called, which is the byproduct of metal making, which the locals did not have that technology. The English did. So that's evidence that that technology was used there at that time, which is a big deal. But you would think you'd also find a little graveyard. I mean, people just died all the time back then, right? It just wasn't hard to die. And you would just think somebody would have died, even if it's just a couple of them would have died. Even that first winter, even with the help of the natives, people would have caught colds, or they would have got the flu, or they would have broken their leg or, you know, something. Or a woman would have died in childbirth or Virginia Dare would have died. I mean, kids didn't live that. It was really tough. This is talk about an incredibly difficult environment to raise a child. Right. So it's weird that they don't find any of that. And I guess we'll just have to see if these continued archaeological digs, if they could find a body, find a skeleton from that period on Croatoan Island, I think that would tell you what happened. But generally speaking, it's a mystery in sort of the sense of we don't know exactly what happened, but they weren't abducted by aliens, they weren't killed by witches, they didn't all eat each other. They either sort of voluntarily integrated with the locals, or maybe the first Dare Stone is somewhat accurate, and some of them were taken by locals basically in revenge for some of the things that happened before that could have happened. But I think most likely they went to Croatoan Island. And really, this is the lost colony of Croatoan island, not the lost colony of Roanoke.
- [61:01]
Alice
And one thing to note about not finding bodies, because we've said this multiple times, for all the theories, we're like, there's no bodies. There's no bodies. Granted, we've said this a lot about missing person cases. There are lots of cases today where we have all the resources within, like, moments of someone disappearing where we still can't find them. So especially when we don't exactly know where they went. And there's probably some integration into the local tribes where they may have moved further out. They may have, you know, not been around this area. I do think that there are bodies somewhere, right? They were not abducted. There are bodies. But I think the fact that it's difficult to locate bodies when you know where to look. It's going to be even harder when you don't know where to look. And that's part of the issue here.
- [61:40]
Brett
Well, hope you guys enjoyed that. Hope the kids at Lidditz enjoyed it. If you have theories or information or thoughts or anything else, shoot us an email. Prosecutorspodmail.com Prosecutors pod for all your social media, we love these old mysteries. If you have any other examples of old mysteries we need to do, we are always looking for these. We love covering things like West Memphis three. But great thing about these, you just. You feel better at the end of them than you do at the end of most of the other true crime episodes we do that we do enjoy doing. But these are always a treat and we like to do them every now and then. So thank you to whoever recommended this. I mean, this is. This is one a lot of people have wanted to hear and hope you guys enjoyed our coverage of it. Get on the gallery. You can discuss this case and others. If you want to watch us record these episodes, join Patreon. If you just want them early and ad free, join Patreon. You can get them that way as well if you want. You just can't get enough of us. Join our substack. We have a lot of stories from True Crime written by a lot of different people, not just us. And we also have some of the things we're doing, including Prosecutors University, where you can learn about things like sentencing and opening statements and closing arguments and habeas corpus and anything else you're interested in. So hope you will check that out as well. And that link is usually in the show notes. Okay, Alice, so do you have anything else you want to add before we sign off?
- [63:08]
Alice
No, I'm just going to repeat what we said in the first episode, which is that we love talking to the Litz students. You guys truly everything we came up with. You guys did it and more. And so it was a joy to see your research at work. And several of them even picked up books. It wasn't just based on the Internet, which gives me hope for the future because, well, that's how I learned to research. And I truly think that some things AI cannot replace.
- [63:35]
Brett
They read actual books with pages and everything. It's wild. So, yeah, we're always happy to be a part of that. And thank you not only to the kids, but also to the teachers and the administrators at Lititz for making that possible. And we can't wait to do it again. Okay, well, we will be back next week with more West Memphis three. But until then, I'm Brett.
- [64:01]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [64:02]
Brett
And we are the prosecutors. Okay. Boom.
- [64:38]
Alice
Hi, guys. I am so sorry. I can't even begin to tell you all the chaos that was tonight, but I'm here. Okay, Car.
- [64:51]
Brett
Okay. I have more nicknames from the L. The.
- [64:58]
Alice
The Lin. Oh, Lin.
- [65:01]
Brett
Let's see what this word means. I have the word. I don't know what it means.
- [65:09]
Alice
You guys are.
- [65:09]
Brett
I'm.
- [65:10]
Alice
I'm sorry. I'm reading back through Yalls comments. They're hilarious. Very, very well done, guys.
- [65:18]
Brett
Hold on, hold on.
- [65:19]
Alice
I was like the captain that left the colony and came back late. Sam.
- [66:22]
Brett
But we were still here. Unlike the colony, we didn't flee.
- [66:25]
Alice
Oh, my goodness. You guys this is too funny. All right, well, thanks for making me laugh, guys. This is hilarious.
- [66:38]
Brett
Two seconds. Two seconds.
- [66:41]
Alice
You. You. You. Wait. Hey, look, you waited for me. I'm. You're fine.
- [66:44]
Brett
I'm just trying to find out what this word.
- [66:46]
Alice
Okay, I'll. I'll just tell you some jokes. Not jokes. Part of what was happening tonight. What?
- [66:51]
Brett
Tell some jokes.
- [66:52]
Alice
Oh, I mean, they're not jokes, but, like, so we couldn't get the kids out of the pool. That was the problem. Like, literally, I'm, like, swinging at water. Like, missing and, like, falling in. I'm like, come on, let's go. And trying to get, like, three, four kids out of the pool is different than only wrangling two kids out of the pool.
- [67:09]
Brett
It's true.
- [67:10]
Alice
So then they came home, and everyone was dripping wet and running around, and no one had eaten. Someone was hungry. So I just had no control tonight. Sorry, guys.
- [67:24]
Brett
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