320. The West Memphis 3 Part 19 -- Jessie Misskelley's Ofshe Interview

Summary

Summary of "The Prosecutors" Podcast Episode 320: The West Memphis 3 Part 19 – Jessie Misskelley's Ofshe Interview

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Introduction

In Episode 320 of "The Prosecutors", hosted by Alice and Bret from PodcastOne, the discussion delves deep into the complex and controversial confessions of Jesse Misskelley, one of the three individuals collectively known as the West Memphis Three. This episode, titled "Jessie Misskelley's Ofshe Interview", focuses on analyzing Jesse's interactions with his lawyer and the implications of his statements on the ongoing debate surrounding his guilt or innocence.

Overview of Jesse Misskelley's Confessions

The episode begins with Alice and Bret revisiting Jesse Misskelley's multiple confessions. Initially, Jesse provided a detailed confession to the police, which implicated himself alongside Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin in the brutal murders of three eight-year-old boys in West Memphis, Arkansas. Throughout the episode, the hosts examine the consistency and authenticity of these confessions, questioning whether they were genuine admissions or results of coercion and manipulation.

Notable Quote:

• Bret (02:31):
  "It seems pretty convenient to me given that we have a statement two months after the initial statement back in June where he is maintaining this same story."

Detailed Analysis of Confessions

Alice and Bret highlight that unlike typical false confessions, where individuals often retract or alter their statements due to stress or coercion, Jesse remained steadfast in his narrative months after his initial confession. This unwavering consistency raises questions about the nature of his statements—whether they were true or influenced by external factors.

Notable Quote:

• Bret (03:03):
  "He is still maintaining that his confession is true."

Interaction with Lawyer Dan Stidham

The episode delves into Jesse's recorded statement to his lawyer, Dan Stidham, made on August 19, 1993. During this interaction, Jesse reiterates his initial confession, providing specific details about the murders, such as the description of the bikes involved and the presence of a folding buck knife. Bret expresses skepticism about the plausibility of Jesse maintaining his story without any signs of recantation.

Notable Quote:

• Bret (03:52):
  "This case also has like infinite confessions. Not quite infinite, but more than most of the other cases we've ever covered."

Conflicting Statements and Recantations

By December 1993, Jesse begins to recant his original confession, presenting contradictory statements to his psychologist, Dr. William Wilkin, and Dan Stidham. He oscillates between claiming that his confession was coerced and that he only spoke what he believed the police wanted to hear to secure his release. The hosts analyze these inconsistencies, suggesting that Jesse's statements may have been influenced by both police tactics and his legal representation.

Notable Quote:

• Alice (10:51):
  "But also, why would you eat the dog if you don't like chicken? And you thought it like. This is along the lines of like, not following what he's saying."

Interview with Expert Richard Offshay

A significant portion of the episode examines Jesse's lengthy interview with Richard Offshay, an expert on false confessions who testified in Jesse's defense. During this interview, Jesse provides a confusing and inconsistent narrative about phone calls he allegedly received before and after the murders. The hosts critique Offshay's handling of the interview, pointing out missed opportunities to clarify Jesse's contradictory statements and explore the veracity of his claims.

Notable Quote:

• Bret (29:40):
  "Misskelley is giving an Example of the police feeding him the story he would later confess to. But there's a pretty big problem when Jesse actually tells the story on tape, which we've all heard, he says the boys are tied with rope."

Police Interrogation Techniques

Alice and Bret discuss the police interrogation methods used on Jesse, questioning the effectiveness and ethics of repeatedly asking him to relive his confession. They argue that the purported 12-hour interrogation often cited in narratives is exaggerated, pointing out that the actual recorded confession lasted only 34 minutes. This discrepancy suggests that Jesse's confessions may not fit the typical profile of coerced statements assembled over prolonged interrogations.

Notable Quote:

• Alice (14:51):
  "Jesse might have told the police what they wanted to hear. That's absolutely a possibility and he'd certainly regurgitated some stuff."

Contradictions and Malleability of Memories

The hosts emphasize the malleability of human memory, especially under stress or influence, indicating that Jesse's recounting of events could have been shaped by repeated questioning and leading statements from both police and his lawyer. They caution listeners about the complexities of interpreting confessions, especially when they contain numerous inconsistencies.

Notable Quote:

• Bret (43:05):
  "So here’s Jesse. Yeah, because I told them that morning before I was going to work for Ricky Dees. I remember now..."

Conclusion and Hosts' Insights

Alice and Bret conclude the episode by reflecting on the challenges of unraveling Jesse Misskelley's true involvement in the West Memphis Three case. They stress the importance of examining primary sources and maintaining an objective stance when analyzing such complex confessions. The hosts express frustration over missed opportunities to delve deeper into critical aspects of Jesse's statements, underscoring the enduring mysteries surrounding the case.

Notable Quote:

• Bret (67:41):
  "You have to read it for yourself and make your own decision."

Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with a preview of upcoming discussions, including further analysis of Jesse's confessions and exploration of alternate suspects. Alice and Bret encourage listeners to engage with primary documents and remain critical of widely held narratives, highlighting the ongoing quest for truth and justice in the West Memphis Three case.

Notable Quote:

• Alice (72:51):
  "Go read it. Read it for yourself and make your own decision."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of Episode 320, highlighting key discussions, analyses, and notable quotes with accurate timestamps. It provides a comprehensive overview for listeners who have not tuned into the episode, ensuring they grasp the critical points and complexities surrounding Jesse Misskelley's confessions in the West Memphis Three case.

Transcript

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

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[Bret]

It was raising flags. He said, there's no way that that fish should weigh 7.9 pounds. It's just not big enough.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

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[Bret]

If there was a cliche list of how to blow money that you just stole very quickly, this guy did all of them.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

To the ski slopes of Salt Lake City, where a former Olympic snowboarder landed on the FBI's most wanted list.

[Bret]

Ryan James wedding is one of those interesting norcos who have had two very successful careers, one legal and one illegal.

[Sarah James McLaughlin]

We're pulling back the curtain on a fresh lineup of opportunists who stopped at nothing to get ahead. These are the stories of people who saw a loophole, a moment of weakness, a chance to get ahead, and took it. I'm Host Sarah James McLaughlin. Join me for a new season of the opportunist on May 19th. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bret]

I'm Bret.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Bret]

And we are the Prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we continue our look at Jesse Misskeli's confessions. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always by my fecund co host, Alice.

[Alice]

Hi, Brett.

[Bret]

What Fecund? Like fecundity?

[Alice]

I know what fecund means. A strange choice of word.

[Bret]

Well, see, here's the thing. It can mean fertile in, like, the sense of having lots of children, but it also means having a vigorous imagination. So we're going.

[Alice]

I did not know that there was a secondary meaning to that. Yeah, I was like, wow, Brett, wow.

[Bret]

I didn't come up with it. Somebo else did, but they wanted me to make clear that they mean it in the sense of your fertile mind.

[Alice]

So we're gonna go with fertile mind. I love it. Thank you to whoever it was who made Brett call me fecund because he's never gonna live that one down.

[Bret]

Audrey. So, hello, Audrey.

[Alice]

Thank you, Audrey. I'm not gonna make fun of Audrey. I'm just gonna make. I'm pretty sure these words are just meant to make fun of you at this point, but you know what I mean. Why we have to go all the way to fecund is because, I don't know, we're on episode, like, 1 million of West Memphis 3, and we've truly, like, run out of. We've not run out of content or steam, but we may have run out of descriptors. And so with that, Brett, we continue our confessions today because this case also has like infinite confessions. Not quite infinite, but more than most of the other cases we've ever covered. So it is fecund with confessions.

[Bret]

It is. It's for condom with confessions. And I'll say this, most times I feel like when you listen to stuff on this, they really stop after the first one. They might talk a little bit about the Bible confession, but there's all sorts of really interesting stuff in Jesse's other statements, and we're going to talk about some of those today. And we'll start with the August 19, 1993 statement that he made to Dan Stidham. I said before that we have two recorded confessions. I put both of those up for you guys to listen to. But in fact there is another recorded statement, but we just don't have the recording. We just have the written version of it. So Jesse gave a recorded statement to his lawyer, dan Stidham, on August 19, 1993. So this would have been a couple months after his initial statement to the police. And at this point he is still maintaining that his confession is true. Now this is the statement that Dan Stidham will later say at the time, Jesse thought he was a police officer, didn't really understand lawyers. And Stidham will repeat that in the post conviction review testimony. But when asked why he thinks Jesse thought that, like, on the what basis, he can't really recall where that comes from. It's just something he believes to be true. I don't know. It seems pretty convenient to me given that we have a statement two months after the initial statement back in June where he is maintaining this same story. And I think I'm not an expert on confessions. I'm not an expert on false confessions or anything like that. But I will say it seems to me it is probably not common that you have someone who repeats a false confession number one so many times, but also with such distance from his initial statement. I think a lot of times what you see is you have that initial statement and then the people very quickly start to say, I didn't mean that. I said that to get out of here. I was under a lot of stress. The cops were beating up on me. But any event, as you're going to see, he pretty much maintains what he said before. So Stidham begins by asking Jesse about the bikes. Jesse says he only saw one and that it was red and black. And this would have been Stevie Branch's bike, which was a new red and black Renegade bike. And this is just a relatively minor little thing. Right. But interesting that Jesse is giving a pretty specific description of one bike but not saying he saw both bikes and not saying he didn't see any bike. Right. I mean you're trying to read into this and determine whether or not you believe it. Interesting. The easy thing would be to say, oh, I never saw any bikes. Right. Then you don't have to describe them, but he gets one of them. Right. Now he wasn't sure what happened to the bikes. He said he left before Damien and Jason did anything with them. He said he left by the service road and he walked by the blue beacon on his way home. He said it was quite a while to walk, which it would have been. Jesse said that when he left the boys clothes were piled up next to them. Jesse maintained that he did not recall anyone having any large sticks. Remember the theory of the prosecution, the theory of the police based on the autopsies that the boys were beaten with some fairly large sticks. He did say that Jason had a knife which he described as a folding buck style knife, four or five inches. And this is something that he sticks with in each of his confessions. And even after the police have introduced the Rambo style knife with a compass, used to have a compass in the base as the murder weapon, Jesse never switches to that. He stands on this notion that Jason had a folding buck style knife. Now he also starts to deny some of the more extraordinary, unusual parts of his confession. He says he never saw anyone with painted faces at any of the so called cult meetings. He denied that he went to an orgy with Vicki Hutchinson. He said that Aaron lied a lot and there was no way he was in the woods that day. Now he did say that Jason and Damian were really into the whole devil worshiping thing, but he was more interested in wrestling. Wrestling, which I think is absolutely true. He said he had been to these meetings two or three times when a dog was killed. So at this point he's sticking to the meetings happened. He just wasn't as interested in them as you're going to see. Even that will fall away eventually.

[Alice]

So Jesse talked about Vicki asking him about Damien and getting those books on witchcraft from the library. And he said that he set up Damien coming over to Vicki's house where they talked. Now Jesse talked about his confession. He told his attorney Stidham that the police didn't coerce him. But when they showed him the picture of one of the boys, he started crying. One of the officers put his hand on his shoulder and told him that it would be okay. Jesse then started telling them things without even being asked. Now, after his statement, Detective Ridge told Jesse that they were going to put a needle in his arm. So the conversation with Stidham ended with them agreeing to seek a term of years to deal in exchange for testifying against Damien and Jason. So this is interesting because he's just talking to his lawyer here and he is saying, I'm not being coerced. I told him what everything was unprofit. They didn't feed me anything. I'm telling it to them. But then he ends with this like they're telling him they're going to give him the death penalty. Right. And it's interesting that he says that at the end rather than somewhere in the beginning, maybe, in order to get all the details. But whatever it is, there's a lot going on in Jesse's mind, and he's saying all this to Stidham, his attorney.

[Bret]

So in this initial statement, he's sticking with it. And Stidham thinks this is going to be pretty straightforward. I'm looking to get a plea deal, get this kid the absolute minimum amount of time I can, and he'll testify against the more culpable parties. That's what he thinks is going to happen. He starts moving towards that. Stidham will say, though, that the more he looked at the evidence, the more he doubted a lot of this was true. And By December of 1993, Jesse is now coming off his original confession and recanting. So he makes a statement to his psychologist, Dr. William Wilkin, and Stidham. And he sort of alternated between saying all police lie and that he only said what he said because he wanted to go home and he knew it was what the police wanted to hear. So there's sort of this, oh, they're lying about what I said on the one hand, but on the other hand, okay, I did say that, but I just wanted to go home. And that may sound strange to you, but it's actually fairly common in these false confessions, particularly with people who maybe have lower IQs, that they just think if they tell the police what they want to hear, they'll let them go. And I know that makes no sense, but you kind of have to put yourself in the position of that person to understand it. Now, Jesse's statement was difficult to follow. And Wilkins repeatedly says things like, what are you saying, Jesse? So trying to clarify sort of this confusing statement that Jesse's given, and he says some weird things in this. When asked why he said he Skinned dogs and ate them. Jesse said he thought it was funny. He said that he figured dog tasted like chicken and he didn't like chicken, which is weird. Everyone likes chicken. So I don't really get that, but whatever.

[Alice]

But also, why would you eat the dog if you don't like chicken? And you thought it like. This is along the lines of like, not following what he's saying.

[Bret]

Yeah. And it's like, what do you mean you thought it would be funny? I mean, you're in a very high stress situation with the police and you're like making jokes. Like, what does that even mean? I don't know. Anyway, he said that he made up the dog bit all by himself. But that doesn't seem like it's possibly true. Too many other people said the stuff about the dogs. So probably Jesse just picked this up in the ether as part of the sort of rumors about the cult. So he made it his own. Jesse says that the police kept hollering at him, but that doesn't actually seem to be true, at least in the recorded interview. If you listen to it, they're not hollering at him. They may have hollered at him before the recording started, but not during the recording. Now, in fact, at times the police seem legitimately surprised that Jesse says some of the things he said. For instance, when he's talking about the times, I think Ridge is like, I am totally confused at this point. So the yelling thing, I don't know. I guess he said that he would just repeat back to the police what they said to him. And this is certainly true at some points. If you've listened to the confession, you hear that, like the time of the murders and how the boys were assaulted. But many of the things Jesse says, such as Michael Moore running or where the boys were laying on the bank and those sort of specific examples Jesse does provide unprompted, at least in the recorded portion.

[Alice]

So Jesse then said that seeing the boy's body, the picture of it really bothered him, which is completely understandable. We told you guys not to go seek out these autopsy pictures. And you can imagine how these pictures would upset him. Indeed. And it's clear that the picture did upset Jesse. And it's one of the things that actually triggered his confession. At one point, Jesse agrees with Stidham that the police, quote, went over it and over and over and over and over again and rehearsed until you finally had the story right. And then they turned the tape on. But again, this isn't possible. There just simply isn't enough time for this, like rehearsing and rehearsing of the confession. Now, maybe under the old false story, remember when last time we said that there was this notion out there floating that the interrogation lasted for 12 hours, and that is patently false. There just wasn't enough time based on when he was interrogated to be able to do the over and over and over and over repetition.

[Bret]

And what's interesting about this, there's something I think is interesting about this, and this is sort of a global comment. Whenever you hear about these false confessions and recantations, it's always interesting to watch how people on both sides of the confession do the same thing. So you have the police who were saying things that they want Jesse to say, and we've seen that where they're very clearly leading him to say what they want. Well, here Dan Stidham's doing the same thing. Dan Stidham is leading Jesse to say, oh, yeah, they just said it over and over and over and over again until you knew what to say. And Jesse goes along with that. And Stidham will repeat that until the end of time that that's what happened. But it's just funny, and you see this a lot. Whenever someone's trying to get someone to recant their statement, they always tell the things like, oh, you know, the statute of limitations on perjury has passed. Like, you can just tell the truth now. You don't have anything to worry about. And it would really help get this person out of prison. And then they say, okay, yeah, you're right, I lied the first time. And then the person's like, see, now they're telling the truth. That thing they said before was a total lie because of all the things the police said to get them to lie. But this, this is an absolutely true statement. And you're like, yeah, but you just tainted the statement with your own words and the way you led that. And you see that so much. And it is a reminder that we always have to be cautious about this stuff, no matter how we're coming at it. Because people's memories and minds are just so much more malleable than you think they are. And you really can make people believe all sorts of things are true just by telling them that over and over again. They'll begin to remember that way and that will be the new story. And it's a problem in any of these kind of investigations.

[Alice]

So with respect to Jesse, he may now think that he was interrogated for hours upon hours upon hours. But remember, Jesse's initial interview lasted only 30 minutes because he was brought in as a witness, not as a suspect. Then when he started saying all these things to the police, he was read his rights and a Polygraph started around 11am and it wasn't finished until sometime around 1pm so between 12:40 and 1:30, depending on who you ask. That's kind of the range. Now, Jesse had implicated Damien by 2:40pm assume then that the questioning began at 12:40. That's only two hours of interrogation, not 12 hours. Now that might seem like a long time, but honestly it's not. Listen to the confession itself. The confession lasts 34 minutes. 34 minutes. There's not time in a two hour span to go over over and over. We're not talking about a one sentence statement or even a five minute confession. A 34 minute confession is a lengthy confession. This time will fly by. So two hours in interrogation, one that begins with having to break Jesse's will using that diagram, remember that Gitchell drew with dots on the outside of the circle and dots on the inside and him saying, do you want to be inside the circle or out of the circle? Then there's the photograph, of course, of one of the victims thrown before him. He breaks down. Then there's the tape of Aaron Hutchinson saying nobody knows but me what happened that night. There's so many events that we know happen that there just simply is not enough time to repeat this 34 minute confession over and over and over again until Jesse got it. That just didn't happen. Jesse might have told the police what they wanted to hear. That's absolutely a possibility and he'd certainly regurgitated some stuff. But the bulk of the story seems to be his alone. Now, although Jesse's story would increasingly be that he was coerced into confessing, bizarrely, he apparently told several people that if the police talked to him about the murders and he would confess. So Vicki Hutchinson, once she began to recant some of her prior testimony about s bots and devil worship, told a strange story to Jesse's lawyer, Dan Stidham. Vicki said that Jesse told her he would tell the police he committed the murder if he was ever questioned. Now, Hutchinson responded with shock when Jesse said this and Jesse told her he was just joking when she responded with the shock. This interaction is really interesting since it came after Vicki Hutchinson was no longer working against Jesse.

[Bret]

And you know, I mean, how much can you trust anything Vicki Hutchinson says? But she's not the only one. Jesse told a couple different people this. We're going to go through that a little bit later on when we talk about sort of is there any corroboration for his confessions? But Vicki had less reason to lie at that point. She's talking to Stidham. She's now on Team Jesse. She's putting out affidavits saying that none of that stuff happened. To this day, she says her testimony against Jesse was false, and yet she's also saying that this interaction happened. So take for that what you will. Okay, so on December 15, 1993. So this is five days later, Jesse gives a lengthy interview to Richard Offshay. Now, Offshay is going to be an expert on false confessions who is going to testify in depth at Jesse's trial. And I will say this, and I'm probably wrong about this, but I'm gonna say it anyway because I haven't heard it, if it exists. I've never really heard anybody discuss this statement. I think people just kind of skip over it because it's like, oh, he's talking to his expert. Like, what's going to be in there? Read it. It's like, it is weird. It is a weird interaction, and we're going to go through it with you because of how weird it is. And you should take the opportunity to read it. It's on Callahan, definitely check it out. And Offshay, remember, he is Jesse's expert. He is there to help Jesse get out of trouble. And so Offshay sort of walks through the day of the confession, and Jesse talks about how he and a friend had called the police earlier to suggest that a man who had offered them some beer was the person who killed the boys. We've talked about this before. This is one of the ways Jesse is on their radar. Ashay also goes over Jesse's description of the day. And Jesse says he got off work at 5, which isn't true. He actually got off a little bit earlier than that, and then he spent the rest of the day at home. Now, this is strange because remember, the first confession happened back in June. We're now in December. Jesse is still not saying that he went wrestling that day. That's going to be his alibi that will be presented at trial and until the end of time. But he's still not saying that at this point. Even when he's talking to Offshay, he's just like, I was just at home for the rest of the day. And he confirms that he told the police that he'd heard Damien and a man named Robert Burch had committed the murder. Remember, that's in the police's notes. And he told the police that damien was sick and that he drank blood. Jesse said that he'd go to damien's house where he had a dead bird's head, and that Damien would stick his tongue in the bird's head. This was one of Jesse's examples of how weird Damien was. And Jesse called Damien a psycho. So this is just once again, you know, whatever you think of this case and whatever you think of damien, even Jesse miskelly has a very low opinion of him. Now, Jesse is consistent that the notes before the polygraph were accurate. So as far as what happened before the polygraph, he says the police notes are accurate. That's what happened. He said everybody was polite and that there was no indication that he was in trouble. He then took the polygraph. And this is interesting for a couple reasons. One of them, I think it goes to the fact that Jesse didn't walk into that police station that day, and the police didn't walk into that station that day thinking, this is going to be an interrogation. Jesse didn't think that. The police didn't think, we're going to frame this kid for this murder. This is our opportunity, Right? This was not a setup. I think the police went into this just like they did with many different people they talked to and polygraphed, expecting he'll get some information out of this kid, find out what he knows about Damien, give him a polygraph. I don't think they ever thought this is going to end in a confession. Whatever happened after that, maybe they coerced him, maybe they let him, maybe they made all sorts of mistakes, but it wasn't like a planned thing, as some people suggest. But he takes the polygraph. And it's interesting how Jesse explains that this comes about because he says they didn't ask him to take a polygraph. What actually happened, according to Jesse, in this conversation with his own expert, is that the detectives were talking about whether or not they could give him one. And one of the detectives said, no, he's underage. And at this point, according to Jesse, he volunteers to take the polygraph. And the police are like, okay. And so then they have to go out and find his father. They get his permission, and Jesse's gonna take the polygraph. Now, he says he didn't really know what a polygraph was. But despite this, he explains that nervousness affects the polygraph, saying, quote, you know, when you're nervous or something, it's going to come up anyway if you're nervous. So how much did he know about a polygraph? I don't know, but it's interesting that he volunteered. Cuts a couple different ways. On the one hand, sort of takes away a notion the police force him to take it. But on the other hand, maybe it's an indication that Jesse really didn't have anything to hide and he was willing to take a polygraph because he knew he was telling the truth.

[Alice]

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[Bret]

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[Alice]

So Jesse said during the polygraph that he lied about just one thing. Drugs. The cops told him, remember when we went through those questions when they asked him about pot? He, like it was crazy alerted. And then he was apparently in deceive mode. On the rest of the test, the cops told him he was lying about more than that, though Jesse said this was the first time the police yelled at him. Jesse was about to hit the polygraph examiner when Mike Allen walked in and told him not to do it. So Gidgel and Allen interrogated Jesse. He told them he didn't know anything and they told him that Vicki told them he was involved. Now Jesse told them he had nothing to do with it. Jesse was asked to walk through his day again and Jesse said that after work he got home around 5 o'. Clock. He said he was supposed to help his dad blow off the porch. His dad left to go to DWI school and so he went down the street to babysit, but no one was home. Jesse said he then went down to Stephanie Dollar's house where that infamous slap occurred and he watched the commotion. Now Gitchell and Allen told Jesse they didn't believe him. Jesse then told police that the morning that he was going to work with Ricky Dees, he saw three kids. So this is interesting because it harkens back to what Jesse will later tell the police about the murders happening in the morning with the 3 bo skipping school. Now, the police were incredulous about this sighting and after some back and forth, Gitchell showed him a picture of one of the boys.

[Bret]

So at this point, Ms. Kelly starts crying. Now, I also want to note as Ms. Kelly's going through what happened. When did the going over and over and over and over again the story happen? Because he hasn't mentioned that yet. Right. Like they're having this whole discussion. The police are doing exactly what, you know, you're taught to do in interrogations, which is tell the story. Okay, tell it to me again, tell it to me again, tell it to me again. Have him keep telling the story. New details are going to come up, you can focus on those things, etc. Etc. So he's telling the story over and over again of his day, but it doesn't seem like the police are telling him over and over again. This is what you need to say. At least that's not what he's telling Offshay, which once again is his own expert. And I think at this point, everyone agrees he knows that Stidham's on his side, afshe's on his side. There's no these are the police anymore. He's now in full preparing for his defense mode. So they show him this picture, and Ms. Kelly starts crying. He tells off Shea that the boy's face was all messed up, that it was cut up. He talked about the circle that gets you drew. And he said, I wanted to be out of that circle. It's a very effective move by Kitchell. So Jesse said he then talks about the police asking him about what was used to tie the boys. He set a rope. Now, remember, this all happens in the second part of the interview. So he does a whole recorded interview. They take the pause, they go back to question him about the times, because the times are all messed up. And at that point, they ask him what was used to tie up the boys. He says, a rope. Basically, he thought, what do people normally tie people up with? They tie them up with ropes. And I've always thought I said this last time. This part is really problematic if you think Jesse's confession is true, because you can totally understand why he would say a rope if he was making it up. For this very reason, of course, they tied him up with a rope. What else would it be? So he said they kind of went back and forth on this a while. And then Ridge told him it was shoestrings. So Offshay asked Misskeli if he put two and two together, if the boys were tied with shoestrings, and he said that he did. Now, this seems like a big deal. Misskeli is giving an Example of the police feeding him the story he would later confess to. But there's a pretty big problem when Jesse actually tells the story on tape, which we've all heard, he says the boys are tied with rope. If the whole point was to coach him to get the story right, what's going on here? And if the police were willing to coach Jesse, why aren't they stopping the tape, correcting him and starting over? And in fact, at no point will Jesse say that shoestrings are involved, even though that is a really important thing and something you would want to get right if you're the cops.

[Alice]

So anyways, Jesse says that he kept denying being there and Ridge kept saying he was. So finally Jesse said, sure, I was there. Jesse also said that he thought about how Damien liked to drink blood, so he figured he was the kind of person that could be involved, so he brought him into the picture. But this isn't true. David Sims, one of Jesse's friends, told police that Jesse told him he thought Damian and Jason had committed the murders. Moreover, in Jesse's pre polygraph statement, he told police that Damien was sick and that he'd heard Damien committed the crime with Robert Burch. So it's simply not true that the first time Jesse thought of Damien at all was as the police were pressuring him to come up with more information. That was all Jesse. Jesse was the one who brought up Damien. Whether that was true or not is another story. But it wasn't the police who planted Damien in his mind or the result of them pressuring Jesse to say something that he gave up Damien. So Jesse explained that as the conversation continued, whenever he would say something the police didn't like, they would bring up another kind of answer and he would use that to craft a more accurate story. Jesse said that when he'd get something wrong, the police would correct him and he'd have to start the story all over again. It's really hard to see how this is true because the amount of time the police and Jesse had to concoct the story is just too short for him to have to go over and over and over this 34 minute long confession. So it's just hard to say how he was able to stop and start and stop and start this long confession that many times.

[Bret]

So Jesse then gets into the phone calls. You remember there are these phone calls that Jesse gets a phone call before the murder, then he gets a phone call after the murder asking why he left. And things here are also very strange. This might be the weirdest Part of the entire conversation. So the police and Jesse's confession say that Jesse got this call from Jason the night before saying, hey, we're going to West Memphis. Meet us, we're gonna go get some boys. Then he gets a call after the murders asking why he left and didn't stick around. And Jesse says something like, I just couldn't do it anymore. And so one would expect that Jesse would say that neither of these calls ever happened because why would they if there was no murder? But that's not what he says. In fact, Jesse says he didn't tell them about the cop 4. He didn't tell the police about the call before the murders. He told them about the phone call after. This is what he's telling offshay. After what? If Jesse wasn't together with Damien and Jason that day, then there is no after. And if he was, what were they doing and why did they call? Here's the transcript, because I think this is important enough to hear how this goes down and to hear afshe sort of his response to this. Okay, so here's what he says. Now, this is what's in their notes. Okay, I'm reading the notes to you accurately. So a big part, and once this begins, what this is about is, do you remember telling them about getting a phone call the night before? Jesse says negatively, indicating Ashe. No. You never told them anything about it. I told them about the phone call after I realize I know there's about. There's at least two phone calls that happened. There's this phone call. I said one phone call. You never said there were two phone calls. I said one flat out never said that there were two phone calls. I said one. Okay, I understand. When I ask you something like that, I'm just going to put the second tape on something like that and go back over it. It's not because I don't believe you. It's only because I want to make absolutely sure that I'm getting correctly what you're telling me and what I'm hearing you tell me is that you only ever told them about one phone call. That's what I told them. One. Okay. And that. And I like that that one phone call you remember telling them about is the phone call the night of the murders, not the day before the murders, that night. Okay, so this is getting weird, right? And you have Ashe asking Jesse if he could be wrong about this. Though Afshay doesn't seem to understand the significance of what Jesse is saying. Jesse then changes his story and says that instead he did mention two phone calls. He says, I remember now, there was what I said was two phone calls. So now Jesse is confirming that he did tell the police about two phone calls. Okay, so so far you have Jesse, he's confirming that he told the police about two phone calls. But it's about to get even stranger because it's not just that, well, I made up two phone calls. The way he starts to talk about it is as if these phone calls actually happened.

[Alice]

But it only gets weirder. Jesse goes on to say, they asked me, I asked him what they were going to do, you know, what are y' all gonna do this weekend? Ashe said, okay, when did this happen? When did you tell them that that happened? This phone call we're now talking. Jesse said it was the first one. The first one. Uh huh. Saying affirmatively indicating, Offshay then says, when did the first phone supposedly happen? Jesse says, well before the 5th. Before sometime. Was it the day before the 5th or sometime before the 5th? Jesse said sometime before the 5th. Offshay said, Ah, okay, tell me about that phone call. Jesse said, near as I can remember is I had a, they called me and we was talking and I said that what are y' all doing this weekend? And they said they were going to go out. And what I understand that they meant something else and what I meant was something else.

[Bret]

Okay, now to all the world, this seems like Ms. Kelly is describing something that actually happened. And Offshe is totally confused because he's not expecting Jesse to describe something that actually happened. And Ashe says, well, if you, when you actually have, I mean, this is a phone call that you actually had with Jason, is that right? And then Ms. Kelly completely shifts. He says, I didn't have a phone call with Jason. That's what I told them. Okay, so now Jesse is back to saying that the phone call didn't happen. But then it gets weird again because Offshay asked him what he told police about the phone call after the murder. So what did you tell them happened in the supposed phone call? That I heard Damien in the background and he, I heard Damian say, tell Jesse about what we're going to do. And Jason told me. When did Jason supposedly tell you or what did Jason supposedly tell you? Told me that they was going to go out and hurt some people. This is what she told the police. Uh huh. Affirmatively indicating hurt some people. And he asked. That's when I said, okay, but I, I didn't know, you know, who they were going to be, you know, when I said, okay, now pay attention to that last sentence, if Jesse is describing a phone call that didn't happen, he's also describing his fictional self, not knowing who the people they were going to hurt in this phone call that didn't happen. And why this is important is because so much of what happens either in the, the first confession or the Bible confession or conversations with experts, it's also structured and Jesse's getting very clear signals on what he's supposed to say. But in this conversation more than any of them, it seems like there are times where Jesse just falls into just telling the truth about what happened. And it's very unusual.

[Alice]

And remember, we're talking about, not based on, I'm taking everyone else's stance. We're not talking about this mastermind genius, right? Because you can imagine all these layers of like in this fictional self of mine, I don't know what they're talking about. That's like several layers of complexity. And everyone is like, no, he's much too simple. He had to be coached for so long to say all these things. And he's of much, you know, diminished mental capacity. If, first of all, it doesn't even make sense to tell this story if you and the story don't know what's happening. But it also, like you're saying that he's able to do something much more complex that I don't even think we would do in telling a lie.

[Bret]

I don't know anybody would do this. And just in case you think this is some sort of weird slip up, it's not the only time he does it. He also does it talking about the first call. So here's the way Jesse describes the first call. So he was just talking about the second call. This is the one we're about to discuss is that first call. He says, you know, when I told them I didn't want no part of it, I was talking about girls. I didn't know nothing about the boys. I was thinking girls. Cause I don't mess with little girls. You know, you love somebody, that's so that's what I mean. But Damien, the boys, I mean, at this point Afshe cuts him off because it's like, what are you talking about? So basically he's saying that when Jason called, he said they were going to go get some girls, right? And Jesse's thinking, I don't mess with little girls. I don't know what you're all talking about. Want to go get some girls, but I don't want any part of that. But in fact, it was boys that they were going to go beat up and kill, basically. So it wasn't a sexual thing, it was a violence thing. But Jesse is describing this first phone call as if it really happened. And he initially thought they were going to get some girls, but in fact they were going to get some boys. And so it was okay. And so Afshay's like, hold on now. And here's what he says, but now it sounds like you're remembering something about a conversation, about some phone call the night before, because you just said Damien with the girls and Damon with the boys and you. And Ms. Kelly says, I meant the girls at this point. And let me just tell you, if there is a problem with experts, it's this. So Offshay comes into this, he's going to testify for Jesse. He's looking to help Jesse out. He's not trying to figure out what's actually happening here. This should have been a moment where you're like, we really need to dig into this and figure out whether Jesse is actually describing telephone calls that happened. Because if these phone calls actually happened, that's a big deal because the phone calls are all about the murders and Jesse's talking about them like they did happen. But Offshay doesn't follow up on this. He doesn't try and find out what Jesse's talking about. Instead, he. He tries to reset and he starts talking about Jesse's confession to the police, but he can't quite get there.

[Alice]

And this is so frustrating. Obviously, hindsight 20 20, but as you're like reading this transcript, you're like, no, Offshay keep going like he's saying something, but he cuts off and it's because Offshay is very confused. So Offshay says, why did you tell them, the police? Why did you make up this phone call? Because you just told me a minute ago this phone call didn't happen. Is that correct, Ms. Kelly? Till you start reading it to freshen up my memory again. Okay, so now at this point, Jesse seems to be saying the call did happen. And when he said earlier that it didn't happen, he actually misremembered because once Afshe reminded him of the call, that's when he remembered it. So Afshe attempts to steer him back to this being a false story. And Jesse's like, no, no, no, you reminded me. You refresh my recollection. I actually remember. And Afshay is like, no, no, no, we agreed that this is a phone call that really did not happen. Is that correct? Now Jesse says it did not happen. So Now Offshay goes back to the million dollar question. He says, okay, now that we've level set, we've agreed, do you see how this whole feeding thing happens? And it happens like people are doing it to Jesse left and right. So Jesse's like, no, the call happened, totally happened. You reminded me of it. And now she's like, no, no, no. What I was reminding you was that this call never happened. Can we agree on that? And Jess is like, okay, we agree. So now this is the point in which offshe go, he doesn't try to explore this other call because he's like, we've level set and we've decided that the call didn't happen. So Offshe says, okay, now I'm asking, why did you tell the police that it happened? What led up to what caused you? What made you tell the police about this phone call? Can you remember? And Jesse says, I can't remember, which is true. I can imagine that. Because what Jesse was just saying was the call did happen. So I can't tell you why I told the police that, because what you're asking me, there is no answer to, because I disagree with your premise. But he's not able to think that way. He's been like, it's like there's two lanes of thinking, right? The call happened or the call didn't happen and Jesse was in the lane and the lanes don't cross in his mind, right? Which makes sense. It's like this is a reality experience. And then this is like an experience that is not true. But he can be convinced to agree with you. So he's in the lane of this call happened. And once afshe, like bumps him off to the no, this call never happened. Now explain how this path works. And Jesse's like, I don't know because I don't actually belong on this path. But he doesn't know that. I mean, this is just so frustrating because instead of trying to figure this out at this point, instead of offshore saying, okay, if you don't remember, let's go back to what you said before. You said that the call did happen. So did it happen? I know we agreed it didn't happen, but did it actually happen? Instead of digging into this, which, oh, my goodness, I want to go back and dig into it. Offshay just drops it. This incredibly important point, incredibly important point. If these calls happen off, she just lets it go. Telling Jesse that if he can't remember, he can't remember. This is absolutely inexplicable. It's as if Afshe was so close to the truth, but just either didn't want to get to it, or Jesse was so confusing that Offshe's head was spinning and he just decided to move on. Either way, what Offshe does not prove and what Jesse apparently does not claim is that the story about the phone calls was fed to him.

[Bret]

Yeah. And look, I mean, I can explain a lot of things about Jesse's various confessions. It is difficult for me to explain Jesse describing what he was thinking during a phone call that didn't happen. That is weird, right? I mean, that's like if he were writing a novel. I guess you're giving sort of the internal thoughts of a fictional character. But it is so strange that he's describing this telephone call and him being confused and him thinking they're talking about girls. We're really talking about boys. And. Yeah, he doesn't do that kind of thing. Right. It's just very strange. But he does it a couple times. And like I said, I'm going to keep reading to you from Offshay as he moves on some other stuff, but go read this. It's lengthy. This is probably the longest interview Jesse ever did. Unfortunately, there's no audio. Read it. You're going to find it. If you can get through the boring parts at the beginning when she gets this stuff. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it, just to be honest with you. So at this point, Akshay moves on to the pictures of the boys that Misskelly claimed he saw. Remember, there's this whole thing. There's a briefcase, there's photographs of the boys in the briefcase, that kind of thing. Jesse said that Ridge was adamant that Jesse had been to a cult meeting. So Jesse just agreed with him. He said he figured Damien was the kind of person to kill animals and drink their blood or whatnot. So he just went with it. And what's interesting about all this is Jesse is his most clear and coherent when he's talking about the cult and how he made up that part. He's not confused or confusing. He doesn't claim to not remember why he said what he said. The parts that are clearly made up, he's great on. And this is in stark contrast to the things about the murders themselves. And one thing that's interesting, Ase asks, why Damien? Why? Just say him. And Jesse doesn't say, because the police told him so. So Ashe says, damien. How did you know it was supposed to be Damien? You understand what I mean? So here's Afshe, by the way, very much setting the stage that this is not only a coerced confession. They didn't just push him into this. This was a setup from the beginning to frame Damien. How did you know it was supposed to be Damien? And Jesse says, yeah, I didn't know, you know, if it was Damon or not, because, you know, it's like I said about Robert Birch. He's always with his friends. They're always riding around, and Damon and Jason's always walking around. And that's what I said. That's all, you know, I figured it had to be Damien, which, once again, Damien and his reputation. So Ashe then asked Misskeli if he told the police Damien was at the skating rink looking for boys. And Ms. Kelly says he did say that because he often did see Damien at the skating rink. Misskeli then does another one of those sort of strange splitting hairs things. So here's what he says, Ms. Kelly. He's always looking at boys while he's at the skating ring, but I don't know where they're getting that to find them. But he's always looking at them, and when he walks by them, he always looks at them kind of strange. And once again, this is far from the police made up the story whole cloth and fed it back to him that you often hear about Jesse, especially from Damon and his supporters. Jesse has his own mind on a lot of these things and a lot of it. If he made this up, he just decided Damien Echols is the perfect avatar for this story. One that the police said is you're going to frame Damian or else Damon was always the person he was going to say based on sort of these interactions he had with him in the past. Once again, I think this cuts both ways. If you're thinking about is this true or not. Certainly it supports the notion that he made it up and that Damian's just the name he pulled out of the air because that's what everybody thought, right? It's almost like he's part of this whole atmosphere in West Memphis that everybody thinks Damian did this. And Jesse becomes the voice for it. Now, of course, if Damian was really there, then that would also explain why he's pointing to Damien.

[Alice]

So Jesse then admits to making up the thing about Damien watching the boys who were murdered, explaining, I don't remember telling him that, that he's been watching them. You know, I said he'd been watching them for a while, but I didn't say a long time. Ashe then says, but you told him that Damien had been watching the boys for a while. Jesse, uh huh. That's what I told him because when I told them at a cult meeting, in the briefcase was pictures of some boys. I made it up. Then I figured, well, Damien would have to be watching them. Okay. Then Jesse talks about telling the police about cult meetings, and once again he admits to making it up without the officer's help. So Offshay then says, now the next part is there will be eight or nine people and we will have an orgy afterwards. Jesse responds, that's what I told him. Offshay says, sounds like fun. And Jesse says, I don't know, I haven't ever tried it. Which again, you hear him being very lucid, right? Like all the stuff about the cult, he's like, off. She's clearly making a joke. I think misplaced joke. Like he really needs to be digging on certain things. Like this is not like joke time. But Ms. Kelly's like, I don't know, he doesn't catch on to the joke. He's like, I've never done it. So off she says, well, why did you tell him that? Jesse said, I just, I figured about how many would be at a cult meeting then, you know, then I figured out about how many will be at a cult meeting. And so that worked out afterwards, it just popped up in my head. That's what I told him. So afshe asked Jesse what he thought would happen after Jesse told the police all of this. And Jesse says, I didn't think nothing would happen because they, you know, they done lied to me, so why can't I lie to them? Okay, once again, this completely contradicts the narrative we've been told. Jesse is supposed to be this naive, intellectually disabled child who barely knows what's going on in the world, who's terrified, and he's just telling the police what they want him to say so he can go home. But in reality, Jesse explains that he knew the police were lying about some things and he gave as good as he got.

[Bret]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you're interested in this case. You should all read this because I think this is fascinating and it gives you such a view into Jesse that you don't get from the books or from the documentaries or anything like that. So they talk a little bit about how the police made him feel miserable and this whole interrogation was terrible. And he's asked about the knife and he confirms telling the police about the folding knife because Jason does indeed carry one. So then we circle back to the phone calls for a second, because there's a point in the notes where Ridge writes that there were actually three. Three phone calls, which is a contradiction to the previous statement that there were two. And once again, Jesse talks about these phone calls as if they absolutely happen. So here's Jesse. Yeah, because I told them that morning before I was going to work for Ricky D's. I remember now. I remember there was three now because I told them I was. They asked me what was I going to do today. And I told them I had to go to work. And I got another one after I got home from work and they asked me what I was going to do that weekend and I told them I didn't know. They asked me did I want to go out with them? And I said, you know, sure. And the next one I got was at night after it happened. And if Offshay notices that once again, Ms. Kelly is talking about these calls as if they absolutely happened, he doesn't mention it. He is done with the phone calls at this point.

[Alice]

So at first, last time, when he just dropped it, I was like, okay, maybe he's just confused because I'm confused reading the transcript. And he moves on when this happens and he doesn't follow up on it, I'm like, you just don't want to know. You don't want to know the truth. That's how I feel, at least, because it's so frustrating when you're in these kinds of conversations. There is such thing as while they've moved on, like the opportunity has passed, the opportunity came up again for him to be able to dig into these calls and figure out what's going on. Because Offshay moves on to the picture that Jesse was shown. So we yet again leave behind these calls, which are so important and they may have been nothing. It may truly have been that it were made up, but it doesn't sound like it. And we have no confirmation, despite Jesse bringing it up again and having another opportunity to dig into it. So they move on to this picture. Now, most of what Jesse says is what you'd expect. He made up what happened to the boy, including that Damien killed him. But it begins with an exchange between him and Offshe that once again is strange. Here, we'll read it to you. So Offshay says, okay, the next thing that happens is that they show you a picture, Jesse, of one of the boys was lying on his side and he had a dark T shirt, blue, like his face was cut up. This was some of that Ashe, do you know what killed him. Ms. Kelly? Uh huh. He's saying yes. How would Jesse know what killed the boy? Ashe does not follow up on this answer. If Jesse just said, I made it all up. But then Ashe says, do you know what killed him? And Jesse says, yes, don't you think the next question would be how was he killed? How did you know? Right. Nothing. Ashe's like, okay, moving on.

[Bret]

And when you want to know that, because whatever the answer is, I was there. The police told me, a buddy of mine told me, I read it in the newspaper. I heard of my.

[Alice]

Whatever the answer is, that's not necessarily a confession, right? Like it could very well be how everyone at Skate World was talking about it. It could have been that, right? It did not necessarily mean that he was the one who was guilty. It just, I wouldn't be able to keep myself from asking, how did you know? Like it would just pop out before I could even hold it back. But offshe does not follow up on this answer, even though it could tell us so much about how Jesse knew these certain things. We speculated. We're like, maybe he heard about it, maybe he was there. But okay, let's put Jesse in a box if he was really involved. Instead, afshe moves on to why Jesse remembers the picture so clearly, which honestly is like confusing. Even when I was reading the transcript, I got confused. I was like, why are we moving on to why he remembers so clearly? This is detail you're honing in on. Like this is not important. So Offshay then says, why do you remember that so clearly? And Jesse says, because he, it was right there. They showed it right there in front of my face. And Ashe says, and it says that Jesse knew one of those was killed by Damien. And Jesse said, made it up. I didn't know who killed him. You know, I just made it up. Now notice the difference when Jesse makes something up. He says, so he's very clear. He doesn't hide from. He's like totally made it up. He doesn't explain it away. He doesn't try to qualify it. So whether he was there or not, he doesn't know who killed this boy, but he doesn't say this when asked what killed him. Remember when he was asked what killed him? He said, uh huh, I know what killed him. That he says he knows the reason we don't know what he knows about how that boy was killed is because Offshay never asked the question.

[Bret]

So then Jesse's asked whether he would have taken another polygraph. There was a suggestion he should take a Second one, and he says he wouldn't have because they'd have just lied and said he failed again. And once again this undercuts the age old defense that Jesse was so shocked that he failed the polygraph and so convinced it could read his mind that he felt like he had to confess. Jesse was more sophisticated than people want to give him credit for. And you hear this all the time. Oh, Jesse thought the machine could read his mind. In fact, once again, I hate to keep pine on Dan Stidham because I know as committed this case is dedicated to Jesse, but he will tell you. Oh, Jesse thought the machine could read his mind and if it said he was lying, then he must be lying and they just completely discombobulated him. Whatever. Jesse knew when they were lying to him and when they weren't. At least that's what he says. So it isn't consistent with this notion that he is just so unsophisticated that the police were able to run circles around him. So Jesse talks about making up the story of the boy's murder, that they'd been in the woods when they had heard some kids coming. He says, and this is the story that he says he made up. They then hid, he and Damien and Jason. And one of them came into the woods and then the other two followed behind. He says Damien grabbed one and then the other boys started hitting him. Then Jesse and Jason joined in. He said he saw Jason and Damien tie the boys up, but he didn't help. He said the three were thrown into the water, two were moving and one wasn't.

[Alice]

Which by the ways interesting that like actually matches the autopsy.

[Bret]

Yeah, it does. And that's when Jesse left. Jesse says this story just popped into his head sort of unbidden. And that's what he gives. Which once again is interesting because it's not consistent with the idea that the police fed him the story from the beginning and that that's what he told them. Jesse said when he got something wrong that was important to the story, someone would correct him. Though he doesn't say what he got wrong and how it was corrected. Jesse says that after a bunch of questions, they start the tape recorder. He says at one point he tried to remember what the police had told them, which is strange given that he's told offshay he was just making all this up on the fly. So he is contradicting his own story about how this came to be. Jesse said he made up the part about the murder happening in the morning, not because he didn't know when it happened, but rather because he didn't think the police would believe him that he spent the morning working his job, which is. I don't know. That's Jesse for you. Jesse said that after the police said the boys went to school that day, he shifted his time to later in the day to account for that fact.

[Alice]

So Jesse's asked how he knew that one of the boys had a cut to his penis. He says that Kevin Johnson, who works for Search and Rescue, told him that. Now, this is the same Kevin Johnson who would go to dais to wrestle with Jesse. He says he knew it was right because the police didn't seem like he'd gotten anything wrong. Now, Kevin Johnson would testify at trial that he told Jesse that one of the boys was beaten and castrated. He also told him that the boys were tied with shoestring, which obviously we know that Jesse got wrong. Johnson said that he told Jesse what he read in the newspaper and heard from other Search and Rescue people. On cross examination, Kevin Johnson testified that he didn't know if one or all of the boys had been castrated or. Or what particular boy might have been so mutilated. So if this is true, Jesse must have forgotten about the shoestring part, because we know he said that the boys were tied with ropes, but that he somehow remembered the castration thing that Kevin Johnson told him.

[Bret]

And he also guessed correctly because it seems like Johnson doesn't know which one of the boys, which, I mean, he's got a 33% chance, right? So, I mean, he could have done that, but it would have been the case that he remembers this and what Kevin Johnson told him. And he's repeating that. Kevin Johnson's testimony, incredibly short. It's so interesting when you're reading transcripts, because whenever you have someone who has a very short testimony that seems like they have really important information, it's because both sides are afraid of them, Right? Like, we saw this with the lady who won the money at the casino. So the defense, they're trying to say this happened on May 5th. They needed to be on May 5th. But the fact of the matter is the lady really only remembers the date because she ran into somebody who believes they were there at May 5th. So the dates all like, was she really there on May 5th? Who knows? Right? But the prosecution's afraid to question her too much because she did get a document from the casino. Now, what date did that have on it? Did it have any date on it? Hard to say. Did she still have the document? I don't know. The defense doesn't present the document. The prosecution doesn't ask about it because the defense is probably afraid she's going to say, oh, yeah, I have the document. Oh, shoot. It says April 24th. Remember? Kind of like the wrestling contract. Right. And the prosecution don't want to ask about it because they're afraid she's going to pull it out and it's going to say May 5th. So nobody asks about it. You have the same thing with Kevin Johnson, who is a very short testimony, even though it seems like this could be the answer to that question we've been asking for the last 18 episodes. How would Jesse know these details if he wasn't there? And this is all holdback information. Well, Kevin Johnson seems to indicate that he knew the details, but despite that, he's up and down very quickly. He says they knew the details pretty short cross, which seems to undermine how many of the details he actually gave to Jesse. But it's like nobody wants to question him too much because they're afraid he's going to give a more coherent, straightforward narrative that would be damning to other side. And so that's just when you're reading these transcripts, look for that. If you see a witness, you're like, man, that witness seems important. Why didn't they ask more questions? It's because there's danger to both sides.

[Alice]

So according to Jesse's statement to Offshay, the main thing the police corrected him for was the time the murder occurred, which we honestly already knew this from the recording when you hear it throughout the interview, Offshay searching for other things that the police fed to Jesse, but Jesse never gives it to him. At the end of the conversation, Afshe just asks Jesse straight out, do you remember, do you remember any other things that they told you that were corrections on what you'd been saying? And Ms. Kelly says negatively indicating. So just note that all of this like the police are fixing things and even Jesse saying they're fixing things when things are wrong. The only thing that we have so far is the time of day, which Jesse says he made up anyways. He says they fixed it, but also I was lying about the time anyway, so there isn't really anything else. It's not like where the bodies were positioned, what happened to the bodies, how they were beaten, how they were killed, none of that. So one small correction, and it's not small, it's big. But it's mitigated by the fact that Jesse himself says the time was made up on his front, on his end has been blown up into this. The police, you know, were indicating on every single point that he got wrong.

[Bret]

So offshay then asked Ms. Skelly about his statements about Damon and Jesse having sex with the boys. Something that didn't happen, and we know didn't happen from the autopsies. And Jesse answers in another one of those bizarre ways that almost sounds like he's admitting to being present for the murders. So here's what Ashe says. Now, in your recorded statement, at one point, you told them that you saw Damian and Jason having sex with these little boys, having anal sex and oral sex with the boys. Do you remember that? Yeah, that's after they told me that Ridge told me that he seen Damian and Jason having sex. And I started talking to him, and that's when, well, Damian will have one, and then Jason would have one. And they said, what happened to the other one? And I said, I was holding him, beating him up. And Abshay says, you did what? I was holding him and beating him up. Beating that one up. That you were beating him up? Yeah. When did you tell them that? That's when. That's when. After. When Damian was messing with one and Jason was messing with the other one. Then he said, what happened to the other one? And I told him that I was beating him up. Huh. And then Damien and Jason would switch to a different boy. And then after that, after that one was messed up pretty bad, then they'd beat on that one. Jason and Damon on the same. On the same boy. Offshay. But was it the way you just described it to me? They told you that they had seen Damian and Jason having sex with each other, and then you just assumed they would have had sex with little boys as well? Right. Is that how it happened? Or did they suggest to you that maybe Damian and Jason had sex with the little boys? Which, by the way, I think the whole Damon and Jason at this point having sex with little boys is the least interesting point of this answer. But offshe is missing the way Jesse is describing this. That's what they. They was assumed. Pardon? That's what they was assuming. Because after they told me that they seen Jason and Damian have sex, then I figured, well, maybe Jason and Damian had sex with little boys. This is offshore. Well, but did Ridge or get you suggest to you that maybe Damian and Jason had sex with little boys and you agreed because they told you that they had sex with one another, or was that something that you came up with on your own? I came up with with the one that Jason and Damien and little boys. I made that up. So once again, Jesse has multiple opportunities to say this is a point that was fed to me by the police. And he repeatedly says he made it up. Now afshay is so focused on trying to get Misskeli to say that the police fed him the story about Jason and Damien having sex with each other and raping the boys that he seems to entirely miss Misskeli describing the murder as if it's what really happened. And this is just so strange when Jesse starts talking just as if he is recounting his memory, not what he told the police, but his memory of what happened. And then, oh yeah, and I made this part up. I made up the part about the sex because the police wanted to hear that. So I made that up, you know, and then Jesse was beating on the one boy and I was holding the one and beating him. And then after Damian beat this one kid up pretty bad, they switch. I mean, it's like, why are you not asking him about these details? But offshe never does. And I really think afshe has this tunnel vision of I am trying to craft my testimony so that I can support Misskeli's defense that he makes no effort to get to the truth. And honestly, Ashe might have been the one who had the most opportunity because Jesse is so comfortable with him. I mean, he just talks to him like they're old friends. So that's unfortunate. The interview is quite long. It took three hours. It's an 87 page transcript and it's worth reading. As I said, it's on Callahan. You can find it. Just look for Jesse Misskelley. Under Jesse Misskelley, there are a whole bunch of different documents you can read. One of them is the Offshay transcript. And I'll just tell you when you read it, I think you'll find that he is even more suggestive in his discussions with Misskeli than the police were. Particularly given the way Jesse describes the conversations. Remember the key point and the thing that we can't know is what was said in the pre recorded interview. And that's why that's so important. Because if in the pre recorded interview the police are not feeding Jesse information and he is giving them a story, then in the recorded interview, when they are directing him to certain things and leading questions, they're leading him to repeat what he's already said, that's much different than leading him to get to a point they want him to get to. And the way he describes the conversation to afe, there just wasn't actually a lot of leading of him. He may have made it up, but he made it up on his own. And the story he repeats to the police on the recorded part is the made up story that he had come up with earlier on in the discussion.

[Alice]

And he readily admits to the parts of his confession that just make no sense, that are like wrong. He just admits, yeah, because I made it up the time of day. And then also of course, the whole Jason and Damien were quote, unquote, screwing the boys. Those two points we knew were really wrong. And he's like in this conversation with Offshay, he's like, yeah, totally made those things up. They're so. Oh. I mean, reading this 87 page transcript is really frustrating because you see what off she's trying to do. It's like he has a checklist and he's like, I just need to get out these points about how the police coerced you or the police made up this up or whatever. Now, whether it was voluntary blinders or not, it seems very clear now that we're looking at it that there's so much fodder for additional follow up that just isn't there. And I don't know if that information still lives in Jesse's mind or not at this point. Back then I think it still did during that conversation, but now we're so far removed that even if you are willing to talk about it, I don't know that this information is still in his head.

[Bret]

Yeah, I don't either. I think you probably missed that opportunity and really all you can do is look back through this and try and come to some truth. So this is our second episode on the confessions. The outline is 30 pages long, we've gotten through 20, so presumably we will finish in the next episode. The next episode. So basically we've covered Jesse's first confession and his subsequent statement to Dan Stidham confirming that confession. Then we've moved to these statements which are his recantations. Jesse, probably no surprise to anyone, despite Offshay testifying that he believes that Jesse's confessions were the result of his will being overborne in his desire to please the police, that he made it all up, will be convicted, as I think you all know. Spoiler alert, 19 episodes in and after that, after he's convicted, he recants his recantation and he gives several statements saying that in fact he was present for the murders and that he actually took more of a part in them than what he said in that initial confession. And these confessions are interesting and we are going to go through all of them in the next episode and that should wrap up Jesse's confessions. And then we'll move on to alternate suspects. And then I think we'll be ready for our theories of the case. Alice, do you have your, your closing argument all written up and ready to go?

[Alice]

Just preparing, everybody. I think we've been saying this all along, these quote unquote closing arguments. We're not gonna solve anything, guys. If you're confused, it's because it's confusing. And what I just said is very true. A lot of what could be known, there were opportunities in the past where it could have been explored, where we could have known more. I think absent, like, I think people's memories now are completely just awash, truly. I think you could see that from the conversation with Dominique. I think you can tell with just all that's happened now, there is so much information that has been lost, I think because the questions weren't asked at the time. And I don't know, even if the questions were asked now, we would know the answer to them. So this is not going to be like a. We solved this, guys. There's gonna be a lot to talk about in the theories, but this type of closing argument is going to be very different than any of the closing arguments at the trials, I'll say that.

[Bret]

Speak for yourself, Alice. Of course we're gonna solve it at the end.

[Alice]

I think we are certainly. I think what we're certainly doing is like every case really, there is so much misinformation that has been attached to this case. There's just so much that circles around this case that I even thought was true. 12 hour interrogation, the police coaching Jesse all along the way. Will you really dig into all of the, you know, statements he makes? So far those things do not seem to be true. You can see where like a small thing happens where it can then spin into a much larger story of what we now hear. But the information attached to this case, by and large, what I knew before I dug into the case, so far it has just not been true.

[Bret]

I think you can also see why the police believed Jesse. So if you think the West Memphis three were just totally framed, then you think the police fed everything to Jesse and you know, they're just terrible people. And I'll just go ahead and tell you, you got three murdered eight year old boys. These people wanted to solve this crime. There were plenty of crimes they could get a stat for if that's what they needed. They wanted to find who killed These three boys. And if Jesse came in and gave an entirely made up story that nevertheless fingered Damien Echols, who was one of their chief suspects and explained a bunch of things, they were gonna believe it. You know, if they're not actually feeding him all this information in the pre interview before they start recording and he's giving them all this stuff, of course they were going to believe it and they were going to go with it. So it's not that surprising that you ended up where you did. And I think that's just another one of those sort of people really want to believe that the police are evil and corrupt. Because I think it is more comforting to think that these, you know, bad apples at the West Memphis three police department intentionally framed these three teenagers for this crime. I think that's much more comforting than to think. No, they were just doing their best. Like assume they're innocent. They were just doing their best. And despite doing their best because of mistakes they made and limitations they had and things like this, they ended up convicting three guys who were innocent. That's chilling because that can happen to anybody anywhere, right? You'd like to think hopefully there aren't that many people who would frame three teenagers for the murder of three 8 year old boys. So if you think that they're just evil, then there's comfort to that because they just, man, there was just some really terrible people at the West Memphis police at the time. That's probably not what happened. It's definitely not what happened either way. Either the West Memphis three are guilty and they got their guys or three innocent people went to prison because of much more ordinary, understandable mistakes that led to that. Okay, we've rambled long enough. So we'll be back next week with more confessions from Jesse Misskelley. If you've enjoyed these episodes, join us on Twitter X whatever it's called, Facebook, instagram @Prosecutors pod for all of those, join the gallery where they are discussing this case. If you want to watch this record these episodes, join Patreon. Don't do it through the Apple app store because that will cost you 450 instead of $3.

[Alice]

Do it some other way converted to Apple products.

[Bret]

I still don't want to give more money. I'm already giving them enough money as it is. If you care nothing about watching these episodes, but you'd like to hear them early and ad free. After we record them and edit them down, we then release them without ads for your podcast app. So you can do that as well. Also for as little as $3 a month. All right, Alice, is there anything else you want to add before we sign off today?

[Alice]

No, there was a lot in here. This 87 page transcript, we have summarized it and I think summarized it well, but go read it. And we've said all along, especially because of all the misinformation that is now attached to this case, because people just repeat what they've heard. It's spun out of control. This is one of the transcripts that I think is really worth reading. And hey, if you can make heads or tails of it, great. It is confusing. Jesse is a confusing communicator and everything he says basically has my head spinning. But I think it's worth seeing. You can see moments of lucidity when you read the transcript line by line. And as always, what we've tried to do is show you where to find those primary sources. Go to the sources. Don't just take our word for it. Because I'm sure there's a lot. There's a lot to discuss in this case.

[Bret]

I mean, we tried to give you as much context as possible with the actual transcript, but maybe you'll read it and think we're totally wrong. If you do, let us know. I'd love to hear that. But do read it. Read it for yourself and make your own decision. Okay, guys. Well, we will be back next week with the last episode on Jesse's Confessions. But. But until then, I'm Brett.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Bret]

And we are the prosecutor. The camera is way clear. Amazing. It's.

[Alice]

I know it's a little. It's a little intense because I can see my pores.

[Bret]

I know. I was thinking the same thing. Like, I gotta, like, start getting more ready when we do this.

[Alice]

Hold on.

[Bret]

I still think my Internet sucks. That has nothing to do with computer. No, it's update the Internet. So I got to figure out something. The Internet. See, now I can't even see you.

[Alice]

No, no, I. I didn't.

[Bret]

There you are.

[Alice]

This is like life, boys. I, like, come in here and they put snake. Sam.

[Bret]

So. Yeah. So guys, we.

[Alice]

We got new computers.

[Bret]

We both got new computers.

[Alice]

We'll see if it works.

[Bret]

We'll see if they work.

[Alice]

I mean, it's been five years since I used the MacBook. So, like, I have forgotten how to use it. But it's so much better.

[Bret]

And I never have. I've never.

[Alice]

Sam.

[Bret]

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[Alice]

I will have my vineyards.

[Bret]

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