← The Prosecutors
Loading summary
Transcript114 lines
- [00:02]
Alice
From the waters of Lake Erie.
- [00:04]
Brett
It was raising flags. He said, there's no way that that.
- [00:08]
Alice
Fish should weigh 7.9 pounds.
- [00:10]
Brett
It's just not big enough.
- [00:12]
Alice
To a nondescript office building in Richmond, Virginia, home to a 700 million dollar fund for children with special needs.
- [00:19]
Brett
If there was a cliche list of how to blow money that you just stole very quickly, this guy did all of them.
- [00:27]
Alice
To the ski slopes of Salt Lake City, where a former Olympic snowboarder landed on the FBI's most wanted list.
- [00:34]
Brett
Ryan James wedding is one of those interesting Norcos who have had two very successful careers, one legal and one illegal.
- [00:42]
Alice
We're pulling back the curtain on a fresh lineup of opportunists who stopped at nothing to get ahead. These are the stories of people who saw a loophole, a moment of weakness, a chance to get ahead, and took it. I'm host Sarah James McLachlan. Join me for a new season of the opportunist on May 19th. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:22]
Brett
I'm Brett.
- [01:23]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [01:24]
Brett
And we are the Prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we discuss the Bible confession. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my trooper of a co host, Alice.
- [02:25]
Alice
Hi, Brett. That was very nice. Very nice indeed. Because I don't know that I'm the trooper. I one day, you know what? I think all my tech issues are meant to make everyone else feel better about themselves.
- [02:38]
Brett
There you go. Exactly. That's a good way to look at it. I feel like, you know, Paul, when he's writing to Timothy, he talks about how he has like, that thorn in his side that God doesn't remove because he needs it to keep him humble. Feel like tech issues are the thorn in our side that we have to. We just have to, no matter what. You know, we got all new equipment still.
- [03:00]
Alice
Here's my. Here's my beautiful laptop that I'm officially locked out of.
- [03:05]
Brett
So you can't get into it. Seriously?
- [03:07]
Alice
Well, no, no. So remember we talked about this with Murdoch, that Apple is so incredibly good about their security. Okay, so I think. I think I figured out the issue. I think my keyboard was reset to a different keyboard. That's why. Because I had the right password, but my kids got to my computer and I thought about it after the fact. I was like, you know what? I bet you. Because you can click on the keyboard and you can, like, do anything, like German. And I bet you it's set to the wrong Keyboard. So I kept putting in the password, and then I reset it and I did it and got locked out. And they were like, hey, you weirdo. This is definitely not right. And so they locked my account for days, literally. It says you can log on in a few days.
- [03:49]
Brett
So the thing is, Alice, you know, I'm not gonna tell you how to run your household, but this computer is a significant investment. And maybe I agree with you. We shouldn't let the kids play with the computer.
- [04:03]
Alice
Just I don't let them play is all I have to say. All I have to say is it is not part of the play items. But I do have more kids than I have one of me. And when you have no childcare, we one adult and four kids, sometimes mischief happens. So if that's you guys, I see you, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna computer somehow.
- [04:24]
Brett
I'm glad you have a backup computer so that we can move forward with today's recording. You know, this is. If you're a patron, like, this is what you're paying all those big bucks for.
- [04:35]
Alice
Is this big bucks?
- [04:36]
Brett
Not the true crime. It's this stuff. It's the background stuff.
- [04:40]
Alice
See, Joel's backing me up. This happens all the time. Like the fact that it only takes seconds. Literally seconds. Especially now that Alison is mobile. He is so mobile. So I have four mobile mischief makers, shall we say.
- [04:54]
Brett
So it's possible you'll never be able to get your computer open. Is that.
- [04:59]
Alice
No. I mean, I have to, like, go through 10 different passwords in order to do it, which I didn't want to do tonight. And you might have to get on the phone to, like, prove your identity with a blood sample.
- [05:09]
Brett
I see. Okay. Well, there you go.
- [05:13]
Alice
All I have to say, this underscores my repeated mantra, which is whenever anyone looks at a crime and they're like, this is a sophisticular sob. No one could do this except the most sophisticated people. All I have to say is I think my life examples quite prove that chaos comes sometimes from utter incompetence.
- [05:35]
Brett
You know, she's right. And that's an important lesson to remember. So having said all that, we're on episode 2100, episode 20 of the West Memphis Three. And today we're going to finish up Jesse Misskeli's confessions. This could be a long episode because he likes to confess, and we have several things to go through. But hey, we're closing in on the the conclusion of this series, as hard as it is to believe, because once we finish these confessions, we're going to talk about alternative suspects and then we'll be on to theories. So I hope you've enjoyed this because it's coming to an end. But with that, Alice, do you want to talk about the confession that came after Jesse was convicted?
- [06:21]
Alice
So this brings us to February 4, 1994. After his conviction, Jesse was transported to prison by deputies James Lindsay and John Moody. During this transport, they asked him if he wanted to tell them anything, assuring him that nothing he said could be used against him in court. Now, at this point, the prosecution was looking to use Jesse against Damian and Jason, who were still awaiting their trials. And here's what Jesse said. According to the statement of police, as written in their report, Jesse advised he had received a call from Jason Baldwin asking him if he wanted to go to West Memphis to get some girls. Jesse, Damien and Jason met on a local road on May 5. Sometime that evening, Jesse claimed that he had been drinking Evelyn Williams whiskey that Mrs. Hutchinson had bought him, and Jason and Damien were drinking beer. It was also stated that they had smoked two marijuana joints that afternoon. And Jesse said that he had known Jason Baldwin since the sixth grade and did not know Damian that well, but that Damian would drink human blood. Remembering a time when Jason was bleeding and Damien took some of the blood with his finger and licked it off. Jesse stated that Officer Callahan had lied in court about not seeing him. On May 5, Jesse claims they had a short conversation after all meeting on the road. The three boys walked to the woods and were sitting in the water with Jason and Damien going under. Jesse said he could not go under because of his ear problem.
- [07:54]
Brett
So this is, as Al said, this is basically they're driving to the prison and he's telling this to these officers. And I think it's pretty clear the prosecution wanted these officers to talk to Jesse. And look, none of this could be used against him. Remember, this is something that's going to irritate Dan Stidham a lot because he has an attorney. But remember, the cost of talking to someone without an attorney is you don't get to use it. All that evidence is thrown out. So I think the way they're looking at it is it doesn't matter. It's kind of like if you give someone immunity, you ask them whatever you want. So they're starting to get this story. And you'll already notice that it is more natural and more detailed than Jesse's earlier confessions. He goes on to say the three young boys were seen from a distance when Damien told Jesse and Jason to hide. Jesse said they were hiding behind bushes when Damien grabbed Michael Moore. The two other young boys started hitting Damien, trying to help their friend. And that is when Jesse and Jason jumped out and helped Damien beat them. Jesse advised he helped hold them and beat them, but had no part in raping or killing them. So a couple things already. Number one, this isn't some sort of satanic cult sacrifice. This is they're hanging out in the woods, they see these boys and they decide they're gonna beat them. Basically, they're gonna bully them, they're gonna be mean to them, whatever. In the beginning, it doesn't sound like it is starting off as a murder. Also notice something else. Jesse, in his initial confession to the police, said that the only thing he did was he chased down Michael Moore, chased him down, and brought him back to the other two. Now he's admitting more involvement in the crime. Gone is that sort of distancing and minimization that you saw in the first confession, though he's still minimizing to some extent, but now he's admitting that he was helping to beat the boys. Jesse advised two of the boys were raped from behind before and after they were tied up and that Damien and Jason were taking turns with the two boys. Jesse said the boys were still alive at this time. Jesse said the boys were kept quiet by putting hands over their mouths and that Jason and Damien had used shirts and that at times their face was pushed down into the ground. Jesse was asked how the boys were kept under control while being raped and not tied yet. And he stated, and this is one of those things where, you know, you look for sort of indications of veracity in these statements and just listen to this and let me know if this sounds like something Jesse would say. Jesse stated they were like puppies. When you whoop a puppy and tell it to stay, it will. Jesse did say he had to catch Michael Moore, but did not say at what point.
- [10:20]
Alice
So Jesse claims that the third boy was never raped, but that he may have been the one that Damian took his penis and put it in his mouth, the young boy's penis. Now, Jesse said at one point, Damien and Jason had one of the boys in a headlock with one he believed had his penis in the boy's mouth while the other one had him from behind. Jesse said he did not mention the ears to the police, only a headlock. Jesse also mentioned that sticks had been used to beat the boys. At one point, Jesse said that Jason had a buck type locking knife and cut it all off and Threw it in the weeds, saying the boy was alive and tied at this point and that he was surprised blood did not get on him because blood went everywhere and he was about a car's length away. Jesse said they threw him into the water and he was still squirming around in the water. At which point Jesse says he left. Jesse said he does not know what happened to the knife. And Jesse said he believed the other two boys were not conscious when he left, but were not in the water. Jesse also stated that Jason called him later and asked him why he left and he told them he could not watch it any longer. He claims the only other contact with Jason and Damien were a couple of times at the skating rink, but they were mad at him. I want to pause it real quick because everything I just said to you was from the report, quotes from what he was saying that was obviously very disturbing. But I say all this because this is what police are hearing from Jesse. We continually say this because the lore that's now attached to the West Memphis Three is all this stuff like they were pegged for nothing. You know, that the police just looked at them, these three boys, because they were misfits or whatnot. These are the actual words coming out of Jesse's mouth. Whether he's lying or not is another issue. But these are incredibly graphic, violent, disturbing things that Jesse is telling, that he telling the police that he, Damien and Jason did to these boys. And it's helpful to remember that as to, huh, why did the police keep investigating these guys? Why did they charge and try Damien and Jason and Jesse? There's a long investigation, of course, but these words are not made up by any police. They weren't just found. They're not third hand. They're not hearsay. We have so many witnesses who've gone through so much polygraph. No, these aren't these other witnesses. This is Jesse himself who's implicating himself within this very, very graphic description of what happened that night. Again, whether it's true or not, whole other issue, but he is saying these things. This is not a commentary on the veracity of what Jesse is saying. He has contradicted himself a lot. He has lied a lot. So has Damien. We know this. We've already read and kind of figured out that there are just absolute inconsistencies in what they're saying. But it is important to note where things go wrong or right within an investigation. He's already been convicted. He can't be convicted again. He's not going to get off he's convicted. He is going to jail. This is what he says after he's already been convicted. And all that's left is Damien and Jason. Right? There's no additional beef. They didn't testify against him. He's the one who's providing information that could potentially be used, which we'll talk about later. Isn't now some other information that Jesse says? Jesse claims his lawyers asked him if he was innocent and that he had lied to them. Jesse also said that the boys had a clubhouse and that's why he thinks that they were in the area. And when talking about the meetings they had, Jesse could remember about nine people showing up. And at one particular meeting, someone named Kent was to bring a dog as his treat. The dog was taken away in the woods where it was killed and skinned and the dog was brought back and cooked in something that looked like Crisco in a washing machine type bucket. Jesse said he ate a little one time and got sick and Kent was to catch the dog at the trailer park. And Jesse believed they had killed about four dogs altogether. Jesse said Jason and Damian would both have sex with Dominique at these meetings. So Jesse said he lied about the time and the rope in his earlier statements about the murders to, quote, trick the police and to see if they were lying. So this is again one of those situations. We've seen Jesse say this a few times where he knows that police are messing with him and he's messing back with them. This isn't the first time he said something like this. Jesse also tells police that he feels the other boys tricked him into what he did. That is also a common theme we've seen in some of his statements where he just wanted to hang out. He thought they were going to get girls, that sort of thing. So this is not the first time he's said it. Jesse also claims that he has felt sorry for what has happened and talks as if he wants to testify against the other boys so that they will not go free and to help himself. Jesse did say that the photograph showed to him, remember the image of the boy that he said, I didn't do that. Or he got very upset about. Jesse said the photograph showed to him was a group picture of the boys riding their bicycles in front of a house. Remember that briefcase with the cocaine, marijuana, all manner of things. By the way, no such briefcase has ever been found, nor picture. But he's describing the picture that he says he saw.
- [15:36]
Brett
It is interesting because in this statement there are some things that are consistent with his earlier confession. Some Things that aren't. He's still sticking to there being this group meeting. The dog. This is the dog thing. And we talked about that one strange person who had the very elaborate story about the cults and Satan's second son and the book they got from the library and everything. And he described very similar thing. I don't think this happened of the opinion that there were no cult meetings. There might have been kids getting together, smoking marijuana and getting high and other things, but they weren't doing this stuff. But he's sticking to it. He's also sticking to this notion that the boys had been somewhat stalked. Right. I mean, Damian's taking pictures of them, or somebody's taking pictures of them. And it's very interesting because you see sort of the dichotomy in his statement. On the one hand, he describes this as very much an accidental encounter. They were going down to West Memphis in hopes of finding some girls, presumably girls to do sexual things with, not people to murder. That's the. What I take it as. I don't know. Other people may think other things, but then they're smoking marijuana, they're drinking, they're hanging out in the woods, because that's where you would do that kind of stuff, right? And the boys show up and it's sort of a spontaneous thing. And then later on he gets back into this all, oh, no, it was planned. We had pictures of the boys, all this other stuff. So those are reasons to doubt this statement, at least in some part. And I think one thing that. That it's important to remember my position on Jesse Miskelly is if he's telling the truth, he's also lying a lot. There are a lot of things in his confessions that aren't true. And I think that's one thing that makes these so difficult to parse, because you're trying to understand, is the overarching story true or not, or is it all a fabrication? Because obviously, I think Jesse has demonstrated. It's funny because his whole intellectual disability cuts both ways. You see people raise that a lot for reasons that he was led or coached. But you also see someone who is very capable of fabricating and coming up with some pretty elaborate stories that I just don't think are true. And that makes you wonder whether the parts about the murders are true or not. Also recall he had just sat through a trial. I don't know how much attention he was paying. If you've seen the Paradise Lost movies, his head's down. It seems like he's not paying that Much attention. But he was at a trial where he's been accused of this murder, and a lot of details were put out there. So maybe you think he's taking some of the things he learned from trial to create a more believable narrative in the hopes of using that narrative to get himself out of prison, even if it means sending Damien and Jason to prison. Okay. So that's sort of this initial statement to the police. When the prosecutors find out about this, they're like, this is great. Jesse is reiterating what happened. He's not denying it anymore. Now we can use him as a witness. On the other hand, Dan Stidham is furious. You know, he had said, don't talk to my client, all this other stuff. But the position of the prosecutors was, he's a convicted person. We're not gonna use it against him. We'll talk to him all we want to. So they sort of converge on Pine Bluff, Arkansas, where Jesse is being held, and they're going to interview him. So Stidham, he takes a tape recorder into the room and interviews Jesse. Unfortunately, we don't have this tape. I don't know if it's available anywhere, but it's certainly not available anywhere that we found. And Stidham has what seemed like at the time, a stroke of genius. He decides he's going to get a Bible and he's going to have the Bible brought into the room. And he's certain that Jesse will not swear on a Bible and then lie. What followed in all this is. Is fascinating. He has Jesse put his hand on the Bible and swear that he's going to tell the truth. And I think, based on the way it's described, keep his hand on the Bible the whole time. So the whole story he's telling, Jesse's hand is on the Bible while he is giving this confession now to his own defense attorney, Dan Stidham, and he swears that the story that he's about to tell about Jason and Damen and him murdering the boys was true. So Sidum asks, what's the truth, Jesse? I want to know the truth. The truth is me and Jason and Damen done it. You were there when the boys were killed? Yes, sir. Now, what's going to be very important is for you to tell me why it was that you have been maintaining that you weren't there all this time. I was scared. What were you scared of? I always lied, and I had never put my hand on a Bible and swore. I. Nobody didn't tell me to do that. If they would have told me that at first. I would have done it. Nobody told me to put my hand on the Bible. Okay, so basically you've been lying to me and Mr. Crow for the past seven or so months about not being there when in fact you were there. Yes, sir.
- [20:24]
Alice
So Stidham walks Jesse through the story. And it started with a phone call from Jason. Now Jesse said the call came on Monday about 6 o'. Clock. This is actually really important as Jesse spent Tuesday night with a friend who did not have a phone. And he asked if Jesse wanted to go to West Memphis to find some girls. He did not mention hurting any boys at that time. Now on the 5th, Jesse now tells the truth about his work day. He was finished with work around lunchtime. He then made his way to Stephanie Dollar's house where he babysat her son Cody. About 5:30, Cody got slapped by Connie and the police showed up and Jesse spoke briefly to a police officer. Jesse then went down to Johnny Dedman's house to tell a big man with a beard and a mustache and a glass eye who his father apparently knows, that Johnny Hamilton was going to take him to Lakeshore. Now this is all extraneous detail, of course, but it makes the rest of the story seem more believable because we've talked about these extraneous, unimportant details that investigators are looking for when they're looking for whether to trust whatever is being said. Now, Jesse went over to Vicki Hutchinson's house and she went to buy him a bottle of liquor. Now meanwhile, he was standing on the corner talking to Dennis Carter. Vicki bought two bottles of Evan Williams bourbon, one for Jesse and one for Dennis. And police had interviewed Dennis Carter in the immediate aftermath of Jesse's confession. Now he did not mention this incident and the police would not have known to ask it at the time either. Jesse said he walked to Lakeshore and arrived there about 6:30. He had his bottle of whiskey with him in a paper sack. And as he was going under the underpass, he says he saw Damian and Jason walking near the park by Quentin Johnson's house in Lakeshore. Okay, so this new timeline is obviously different than that first statement where he kind of says it's in the morning. He says the kids skipped school that day. Now he's telling the truth, at least about his work day. And this timeline, if true, would work really well. But it does have to be off. The Cody Dollar incident didn't happen until 6:30. So if Jesse was there for this incident, the slap, he would have met Damien and Jason later, probably an hour later at least, than Jesse claims.
- [22:44]
Brett
So, you know, this is some really interesting stuff here, and there's a couple things that could be going on and it really depends on how sophisticated you think Jesse is. And this is, like I said, that whole intellectual thing is a double edged sword. Because if I wanted to tell you a lie about something I did, let's say I was talking about July 4th and I wanted to tell you a lie about getting abducted by aliens or something, I would include all the things I did on July 4th during the day. You know, we had barbecue and ribs and then the kids took a nap. And then we decided we were going to go down to one of the local towns that was having fireworks and we drove out there and we got there right as they started and then we watched them and it was great. And as we left, there was a light in the sky and all of a sudden this ship descended and I was taken bodily into the ship and all sorts of experiments were done on me. And then I woke up in my bed at home. Everything up to the point about the aliens is true. That's how that day went. The alien part is made up, but the alien part sounds more believable if I surround it with all these details of things that actually happened. So the question is, what is Jesse doing here? Is he. He's determined to lie to Dan Stidham and tell him a convincing story, one far more convincing than his initial confession. You know, his initial confession, it starts and stops. He's trying to get out of there, he's trying to end it. He's trying to limit his involvement. He's not telling you anything that happened earlier in the day. It's just, he's in the woods, the boys are getting killed. He's talking about brown ropes and the boys skipping school and all sort of stuff. And there's so much that's just not believable. This story, though, is just so much more believable. Everything about it is more believable. The way he adds these details and remember that first episode on Confessions where we played the statements of his own witness, talking about what you look for in a believable confession. This confession has it. It has all that extra stuff, right? But what we don't know and what we can't know is how much of this is true. But then the part we're about to get to is where he starts to tell the lie. Okay, so at this point, Situm asks Jesse about devil worship. Because, you know, that's the least believable part of this, I think Stidham's trying to bring that out. Jesse says he has been to a meeting before. And honestly, if you read this, this part has a different quality than the rest. It just reads like Jesse is making this up, Bible or not. But Jesse does say that at these meetings, they never talked about killing or hurting anyone. And yet when Stidham mentions the briefcase and the pictures of the boys, Jesse is back at it, that this did happen and he had this briefcase in the picture and everything else. In any event, Jesse said he made up some of the participants at the meeting, though he did say there was a man who was tall, with black hair that looked like Damien. This man lived in Lakeshore. Presumably this is the infamous Lucifer that everyone talks about. And he said this was the man who had the briefcase. He was the one with a gun. And he had the picture of the boys on bikes by some white houses and trees. Personally, I would find this confession more believable if Jesse just dropped this part and said it didn't happen. He does say that he made up the part about killing the dogs and eating the legs. So that's good that at least he's. He's moved away from that. Jesse also says the story that Vicki told about going to Terrell in Damien's red car was made up and that Damien couldn't even drive. Jesse said he didn't believe in all this sort of satanic stuff. It was just an excuse to drink and have fun. That part I believe. So the night of the murders, he says that, you know, he's got his Evan Williams bottle. He says Jason and Damien have a 12 pack of cheap beer, though he did not recall what kind of beer it was. He says, you know, after they sort of run into each other, they start walking towards West Memphis over an overpass between Lakeshore and Walmart. They walk down to the Blue Beacon truck stop, and they see a little trail into the woods. So they take it, he says they sat down and they start drinking. So they're drinking beer, he's drinking whiskey. And, you know, at some point, they're also smoking some marijuana. He describes what everyone's wearing, you know, which is fairly easy because they're all wearing black. He says Domini wasn't there that night. They were sitting by a tree that he said was leaned over. Said they were near a pipe that made a walkway like a little bridge. Which. One thing I want to say if you read this, there are people who read this confession, and they say that Jesse's location is completely wrong. And they interpret a lot of these things as putting Jesse and Damien and Jason much farther to the east in sort of a different part of the woods. And. And they say that this stuff that he's describing can be found in different parts of the woods. When I read it, I hear the pipe bridge, but I mean, I don't know, right? Like when he says there was a pipe that made a walkway like a little bridge, I'm thinking of the pipe bridge across Ten Mile Bayou. So it seems like he has put himself in the correct area. He talks about there being a clubhouse that the kids had built that was black with sides to keep the wind off and that had a roof. If this exists, no one has ever found it. And I think it's pretty clear there is not a clubhouse. There have been theories about this clubhouse, which we'll get into later, that in fact it involved the sewers, which leads into the whole manhole theory, which is a bizarre aside. But nevertheless, he says this about the clubhouse, if it exists, nobody's found it. So they're sitting there, they're drinking, and then they hear a noise. And at this point, Jason and Jesse hid, but Damien, he just sat there.
- [28:27]
Alice
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home.
- [28:51]
Brett
And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework.
- [29:20]
Alice
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You choose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you.
- [29:42]
Brett
Give it a try after this episode@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not Available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.
- [29:53]
Alice
Have you heard about oneskin's scalp serum? OS1 hair? People are raving about it. I've been using it since they launched a few months ago and I'm already obsessed. If you're familiar with Oneskin, you know about their patented OS1 peptide and how it's safe, scientifically proven to target aging at the cellular level. It's what powers their skin and sun care. Now it's targeting age related hair loss and thinning. Listen to this. People are sending in reviews like, my hair has never felt so thick and full and my scalp feels healthier than ever and I started three months ago and I am seeing new little hairs on my scalp line. One customer even wrote, I have tried everything for hair growth and finally I'm getting a response from from my hair. And it's not just talk. One skin scientist did a clinical study showing that after six months, participants had significantly thicker and denser hair. If you're Ready to give OS1 hair a try, you can get 15% off your first three months supply with code prosecutorsoneskin. CO guys, I've been using Oneskin for months now and I can tell you I see the difference. My skin from their skin care is brighter despite having less sleep because of a new baby. And and talk about postpartum hair loss. I was noticing my hair falling out in clumps as often happens after I have a baby. But with their OS1 hair, I could really see the new growth coming back so much faster. Now my hair doesn't even look like it went through that massive shedding.
- [31:20]
Brett
You guys, this isn't magic. It isn't hocus pocus. One Skin was founded in 2016 by an all woman team of scientists with PhDs in skin regeneration, stem cell biology, immunology and bioinformatics. OS1 works at the cellular level to improve key aging biomarkers while reducing the visible signs of aging, including lines, wrinkles and sagging skin. What are you waiting for? One Skin is the world's first skin longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, One Skin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer and for a limited time. You can try OneSkin with 15% off using code prosecutors at OneSkin co. That's 15% off OneSkin co with Code prosecutors and after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you.
- [32:25]
Alice
So Stidham has Jesse draw a map laying all this out. And Jesse lays out the general area of Robin Hood Hills. It's hard to say how accurate this map was, though he named several things that are in the area. He says at one point that the boys were put in water that would have been over his head. This is wrong. The creek where the boys were put wasn't really that deep. We've talked about this before. They could have stood up. Right. It's possible, of course, that Jesse did indeed leave before the boys were put in the water, and he just wouldn't know how deep the water is. In any event, Jesse confuses the bayou and creek throughout his discussion, and it's a little unclear what he's trying to describe. Now, much of what he says is accurate. Being able to see the houses through the trees, for example, because the house is back by this way, right. And about where the driveway's at, where there's a field and you can see through their trees and see the houses. Now, the existence of the pipe bridge in the bayou and the trails leading up to Blue Beacon and the field next to the areas and the dog track down the road, all of these things he's describing, and they are there. Now, of course, this could just be because he had been there before, or he just sat through his trial where this was all laid out. So it's possible he learned this information during the trial. Jesse says this was the only time he'd been to the woods. And he says he lied about going back and crying. Now, Jesse also says he lied about Damian and Jason getting in the water.
- [33:54]
Brett
A couple things about this, I wish we had this map. So, Stidham, no one knows where the map went. That would obviously be helpful, I think, to determine whether or not Jesse is accurately describing the area. And once again, it just depends how you read some of these statements. You know, the fields there, the dog tracks down the road. But how is he describing this? I mean, remember Jesse, it's not as if he's looking at this through a drone, right? I mean, he's standing in the woods. He's generally describing the area. He gets some things wrong, or he puts things in the wrong place or in the wrong direction or stuff like that. I just don't know how much that matters because I don't know that anyone in particular, Jesse, if they were in a place they'd never been before, they might remember various landmarks. But would they remember with the kind of specificity people want? So when people point to those inconsistencies in this confession, I don't find that all that powerful. There may be Some inconsistencies. There are some inconsistencies, but I don't know that just because Jesse at times seems to be describing an area further down the road from where the boys were killed necessarily undermines what he says. Like I said, I'd like to see the map, but we don't have it. So at this point, Jason and Jesse are telling Damian to hide. He's just sitting there. They're out there drinking beer, they're underage, they're smoking marijuana. They don't know who's coming through the trees. They want Damien to hide. He does hide. And at this point they see the boys sort of come out from the woods into this area where they are and they see them lay their bikes down. Jesse said there were two bikes. One was red and another was a light color, greenish. And Jesse said, and this is interesting that it wasn't a boys bike. This is a small detail, but it is in fact true. Michael Moore's bike was his sister's and he painted it green. Now, once again, obviously this would have been more powerful had he not just sat through a trial where the bikes were sitting in front of him the entire time. But nevertheless it's an interesting detail. So Jesse has them located and this is a circumstance where he's wrong. Only about 10ft from the pipe bridge. In reality, the creek where the boys were found was much further than that from the pipe. Though it is worth remembering, this area is pretty small. This is supported by the fact that Jesse says he didn't actually see the boys ride their bikes across the pipe. So he's wrong about that. But is that an instance of an inaccuracy that makes you doubt his confession? Or is it just an inaccuracy that you would expect from someone like Jesse trying to give you general distances and not being good at it?
- [36:29]
Alice
Now, Damien grabbed one of the boys. This is of course Jesse saying this. And the other two boys started hitting him. At which point Jesse and Jason jumped in to help beating the boy. Jesse had Michael Moore, but he let him go. And that's when Michael ran and Damien said, get him. And that's when Jesse ran after him. He said that he was wearing a Boy Scout uniform. That's accurate. And Jesse said he was very drunk while all this was happening and that even though he'd hit the boys, he didn't think it did much damage. Now Jason pulled out his knife and cut one of the boys faces on the left side. Jesse didn't know which one, just that it wasn't the Cub Scout who was Michael Moore. Jesse believed it was the blonde one, which would be Stevie Branch. And in fact, like we noted from the autopsies, Stevie was the boy with the injuries to his face. Jesse said he didn't know that they were going to kill anyone until Jason emasculated Chris Byers. Jesse said, that's when I realized that, you know, they're going to kill these boys. By this point, Jesse says that Michael Moore was knocked out. Jesse said that to prevent the boys from screaming, they'd stuff shirts into their mouths. Now this could explain the wounds to the mouths that we saw in the autopsy. And Jesse said that Jason and Damien pulled the boys pants off. They didn't unsnap them or nothing, just jerked them off. And as we now know, this is in fact how the boys pants were removed. They were inside out as if pulled off in one swooping motion. And they were still snapped buttoned. They were not unbuttoned to be taken off.
- [38:05]
Brett
And once again, this was testified to a trial. But how much do you think Jesse was paying attention? And I think that's a really important question for you as you consider this confession. Was Jesse really tuned in to these, what are relatively minor details? I mean, this would have been a couple statements in his entire trial about the fact that the boy's pants were inside out and still buttoned. But did he remember that and say later on when it's time to confess, I'm going to include this detail because it's going to make it seem more realistic, or is he saying what he actually remembers? Now at this point, what happened next is a little confused, but Jesse says something that I think is so important and if you're out there and you're someone who thinks the West Memphis Three did this, this is a detail that I think you should pay attention to. Jesse says that Damien squeezed one of the boy's penises. Now, based on Jesse's description, this would have been Stevie Branch, who as we have noted multiple times, did indeed have this unusual injury that as we've talked about and we talked to Joseph Scott Morgan, would be consistent with someone squeezing really hard. Of all the details, this detail is striking because no one ever focused on this injury. This was never an injury people were really paying attention to. They obviously were paying attention to Chris Byers, what happened to him because it was dramatic, right? And it was the thing that they were going to use to prove who did it. And you could imagine that's the kind of story that gets around all of West Memphis Maybe even the fact that it was just Chris Byers gets around West Memphis, or maybe the police do feed that piece of information to Jesse because they want him to be able to confess and do it in a believable way. But this injury, it is downplayed in the trial. It is barely even mentioned in the trial. It's certainly not mentioned that it could be caused by, you know, did Damien or someone grab and squeeze or anything? It was described as like a hickey, right, by Peretti. Jesse took this detail and somehow managed to include it in this confession. Then Jesse is far more sophisticated than anybody gives him credit for. And it is very interesting to me of all the things he says that he makes this point about this relatively unknown injury to one of the boys that has no explanation. That's obvious. And Jesse is giving you that information in this confession. Now, he says that he didn't rape the boys, but he said he made a movement like he was raping the boys from behind. He also says at this point, Damien was masturbating. After ejaculating, Damien wiped himself with one of the boy's pants. And we'll come back to that later. Meanwhile, Jason was beating Chris Byers and emasculated him. Jesse saw blood, but he said that Jason and Damian used the water to wash off the bank. Quote, real good. Jesse said that they wiped their footprints with a stick going in a zigzag pattern to cover them up. They then splashed water up from the creek with their hands until the blood was washed away. And this is consistent with how the creek bank is described as it's been washed off, the blood has been removed. It's a very unusual scene. Jesse is describing what you would expect to see if that was what happened to that creek bank. Jesse said when he saw Jason throw Christopher's body parts away, that's when he stopped. That's when Jesse was like, I'm done. He said he just sat there. Eventually, he walked over to where the other two boys were. Remember, Michael Moore is a little bit away, but he's been knocked out. He said Jason and Damien were tying their hands with shoestring. Right hand to right ankle, left hand to left ankle. Jesse is asked why. He talked about a brown rope. He says he made that up. Jesse said that none of the drinking blood or anything like that actually happened at the murder. He said that the boys were tied up and put into the water. Jesse would also say that at some point, Damien bit the top of Stevie Branch's penis. And recall, this is another injury Stevie Branch had. So he has that sort of band that looked like a hickey. He also has scratches to the top of his penis. And. And Jesse, once again is giving you an explanation of how that could have happened.
- [42:31]
Alice
Yeah, especially what's happening that he's describing to Stevie's penis is, like you said, it's so striking because while all the other stuff, the girl's bike painted green and all these other things, I don't think there was testimony at trial that even speculated exactly how this happened. And so, of course, he could have heard it, made these connections. But I think you really hit the nail on the head that this is just such a striking part of his confession. Now, Jesse left before the other two disposed of the clothes, and he could not speak to what happened to them. Obviously, if this story is crafted from trial testimony, he should have known because he sat through the parts that he said he left. Jesse said he busted his whiskey bottle that he'd been drinking while he was walking home. And Jesse said that it was around 7:30pm at this point, though, as we know, Jesse is terrible with time and distances and numbers, basically. So Jesse walked down the street drinking the whiskey, and he said he was so angry that suddenly he shattered the bottle on the overpass between Walmart and Lakeshore. Jesse said he was underneath it when he did so. So the interesting thing about this little detail, again, this doesn't have anything to do with the actual murder, but when we're looking at extraneous details that may or may not be able to point to the veracity of what he's saying. Dan Stidham and the prosecutor go to the overpass where Jesse says he was when he smashed this bottle, and they do find a shattered bottle of Evan Williams. Jesse still maintained that he went to wrestling that night, which obviously, with everything he's saying in this Bible confession is just completely inconsistent. He was not in dais.
- [44:04]
Brett
Yeah, I mean, once again, his hand might be on the Bible, but he's either lying about some of this or he's been lying about it for so long that he now believes that he did in fact, go wrestling. But he did not. He couldn't have done that. The Evan Williams bottle is thing people argue about a lot. Obviously, broken bottles in an underpass. Not the wildest thing to find. Essentially, they found the neck of an Evan Williams bottle. If you've ever seen the Evan Williams bottle, the neck is pretty definitive. It looks like a Jack Daniels neck as well. So maybe you confuse the two. But essentially they found this. They went down to a liquor store and they compared it and it did match an Evan Williams bottle. But hard to say whether or not that's convincing. Now, a lot of people, this is sort of that corroborating piece of evidence that they really point to. I would just say that the entry to Stevie Branch is pretty striking. And I'd have to go back and I'm going to and look at Peretti's testimony and see whether or not what he says about how this would have been caused. But let's the same for a second. The Peretti did say that squeezing could have cost it. Still amazing if Jesse pulled that one piece of information out of Peretti's very graphic, very brutal testimony, pulled that one piece of information out and said, I'm going to use this in my confession.
- [45:25]
Alice
So now we move on to yet another statement on February 17, 1994. So this statement is taken by Brent Davis. Dan Stidham is there, he's objecting vociferously to Jesse giving a statement. You know, he's begging Jesse not to speak. After Stidham walks through all the reasons that Jesse should not give a statement, Jesse says he wants to give one anyway. Now, this statement largely follows the Bible statement he previously gave. He said that there's the same meetup, the same purpose to find some girls, the same path that they take through the woods, and the same Evan Williams that he's drinking that night. Now, he mentions also that Damien has a stick that he used to beat the boys. And he was asked if it was one of the ones in court during his trial. They brought different sticks, but he said he did not look at the sticks in court, so he couldn't say one way or the other. Jesse says that Damien intended to sexually assault one of the boys, but he ended up not doing it. And Jesse maintains that the knife was a lock blade knife. He's always stood by this. He's never backed down. And this is interesting because at trial they bring a fixed blade knife, not a lock blade knife. Right?
- [46:35]
Brett
And let me say this, the knife is way more important in trial than some of this very minor testimony that Jesse would have had to grab onto. So if he was going to change his story based on the testimony at trial, you would think he would have done that with a knife and said, yeah, actually it's the Rambo knife. You guys had a trial. It's not a lot blade knife. It was that one a lot about the lock blade knife. The same reason I lied about the brown rope, etc, etc. But he doesn't do that. He's been saying it was a lock, blade knife since the very first confession. I mean, that is one of the things that is a through line for him the entire time. So I do think that's interesting because you would think if he was lying, that is a detail he would change.
- [47:15]
Alice
And again, there's no mistaking it, right? Like it was such a big deal at trial. There's no mistaking that in all of the evidence presented at trial, he somehow missed that. The fact that they brought a Rambo knife as opposed to this lock, blade knife. That's been very clear all along. And he's been asked multiple times about this knife and he never changes the fact that he says it was a lock, blade knife. So Jesse says that Damian and Jason tied up the boys. Jesse says he did not help them tie up the boys. That's also been consistent throughout all his statements so far. Once again, this is interesting because although the three boys are all tied in unique ways, there are really only two types of knots in the bindings. Go back and listen to our knot tying episode about all the different types of knots that were used. Now, Jesse said that he did go to wrestling that night. Yet again, he's talking about Dias and that they left sometime after 8. By the way, I kind of feel like if Jesse's telling the truth, he just forgot what night he went wrestling and that might just be why he's like so stuck on being in Dias. And Jesse says that he left the scene of the crime before Jason and.
- [48:18]
Brett
Damian, which is also consistent. He said that throughout from the very beginning. And I think, as we've said, could account for some of the minor mistakes about like the depth of the water that he just, he was not involved in any of that. He didn't do any of that stuff because he was already gone. You know, he says that Damien and Jason were mad at him and you could imagine, you know, you abandoned us and we're trying to cover up this crime. We could have been caught, you weren't there, we could have used your help, et cetera, et cetera. So just another thing that he is consistent about this statement. By the way, if you listened to the episode where we just put the confessions together, we do have a recording of this statement so you can listen to it. Audio is terrible, but nevertheless, you do have it. So one thing you might be asking yourself, and something that people often point to is a reason to think that this is all lie, is Jesse didn't end up testifying against the other two, despite giving multiple confessions. I mean, these are at least three confessions he's given since his conviction. So why doesn't that happen? Well, there's a reason it didn't happen, and it's not necessarily that Jesse was lying about all this. On February 21, 1994, he is talking to one of his attorneys, Greg Crow. And Jesse tells Crow that the prosecutors told him that if what he was saying about Damien or Jason wasn't true, he shouldn't say it, and that all they wanted to know was the truth. And Crow urged Jesse not to talk to the prosecutors without his defense attorneys there. Now, at this point, he mentions an Arkansas Supreme Court case that he thinks can help him. It's one about parental consent. There's always been this argument about whether or not proper consent was obtained. But he also talks about some evidence that he thinks will clear him. And Jesse says that his whole family is telling him to listen to his defense attorneys, not the prosecutors. And here's what Crow says about the evidence. I think the Supreme Court will agree with us. You know, that there's that, and then there's that new evidence I've been telling you about, in my mind, proves that neither you nor Jason nor Damien could have been there. I just think it proves it. He then goes on to say, I certainly understand that Jesse wants to talk. I want you to realize this. If you testify against the other two, that's going to pretty much going to kill any chances for appeal we have. Okay? And Jesse says, nobody never tell me that or nothing. So here's what happened here. If Jesse was telling the truth about what happened, if his confessions are genuine, two things happen. Number one, he's under immense pressure by his family not to do this, not to testify. If you've watched Paradise Lost, you've heard some of the most important people in his life. His father, one of his father's former girlfriends, who was very much a mother figure in Jesse's life, are telling him, you didn't do this. This is a lie. If you get up there and testify, I'm never going to forgive you. Right? I mean, these are the people that you care about. I mean, honestly, if Jesse was telling the truth when he confessed, it's kind of like Richard Allen. Richard Allen confessed, and his wife and his mom and everybody else is telling him that's not true. That's not what happened. Why would you say that? You need to quit saying that. And eventually he stopped saying it. Jesse's under similar pressure, but at the same time, his attorney is telling him there's all this new evidence that's going to prove you didn't do it. And if you testify, that won't matter. We're going to lose the appeal. So, you know, you just need to decide. You can testify if you want to, but all that new evidence is going to prove you're innocent. That's going to be useless. And if that evidence exists, nobody knows what it is. It certainly was never produced. There was no evidence that Greg Crow or Dan Situm had that would have proven this. And this to me is a really interesting ethical thing that happens in this case. At some point, Dan Stidham and Greg Crow stopped being Jesse's attorneys and they started being attorneys for the West Memphis Three, for that entity that is the West Memphis Three. They're no longer doing what's best for Jesse. Because I just go and tell you Jesse, who has now been put in prison for the rest of his life, if he's telling you I did this and he's giving you this detailed confession, you as an attorney, maybe you need to stop for a second and say, maybe he's telling the truth, maybe I should try and get him a deal. But they never do that. They are constantly trying to stop Jesse from doing the thing that could have kept him out of prison. Maybe that makes them heroes if everybody's innocent, I don't know. But it got so bad that at one point a different attorney is appointed to Jesse because no one thinks that Stidham and Crow are actually representing him anymore. By that point, Jesse sort of changed his mind. He's not going to do this. This conversation seems to have sealed it. But there's a very interesting, fascinating, deep ethical question at this point about why his attorneys, they don't seem interested at all. And even trying to negotiate him a deal and say, look, here's the deal we got for you. If you testify, this is what you're going to get. If you're lying, you shouldn't do that and it'll ruin the appeal. But you need to have all your options on the table. So, you know, they never did that.
- [53:33]
Alice
No. I think that's incredibly important here, especially because this is all following the Bible confession. Right. Like they're asking these follow up questions. They even do additional, I guess, follow up corroborating evidence. Right. Stidham is walking the under overpass with the prosecutor and he find it may mean nothing. There are a lot of liquor bottles under the overpass. But I think the fact that none of these options were not laid out is incredibly troubling. And then obviously, you know, they continue to trumpet these things far after.
- [54:04]
Brett
Okay, so is there any corroborating evidence to support this? Let's talk about a couple things that may exist. One is Lee Rush. So Lee Rush was the live in girlfriend of Jesse Miscally Sr. If you've seen Paradise Lost, she's the one who gets into an argument with Jesse Misskeli Sr. About whether they'd support Jesse if he was guilty. During several scenes of the Misskelley family, the camera sort of lingers on Rush, who seems fairly uncomfortable. There's the one part where the family's singing Happy Birthday to Jesse and she looks like the last place she wants to be is there. And it turns out, even though this is not mentioned in the documentary, it turns out that Rush had actually given several statements to the police about Jesse's behavior after the murders. She said that Jesse had been waking her up at night, screaming and sobbing with nightmares. She said that every time she went into Jesse's room, he was crying hysterically. Jesse said, explain this, as he was upset because his girlfriend was moving away to Florida. But Rush found this hard to believe. So that's Lee Rush. Then there's Kim Floresca. And if there was one person I tried to get in touch with, it was Kim Floresca. If you're out there, Kim Floresca, call me, email me, emailed, every possible email address, work address, everything called, every phone number known to her. This is where I wish we had a budget and like, because I know exactly where she lives. Knock on her door and talk to her. Kim Floresca. So according to an article in the Memphis Commercial Appeal that ran on June 7, 1993, before Jesse was arrested, he told Kim Floresca an interesting story. He told her that he had been involved in the murders. Jesse told her that one of the boys ran off and Jesse went after him. Jesse said that he brought the boy back to where the other two boys had already been killed. Jesse also told Kim Floresca that he hit one of the boys. So this statement is number one not only with the high points of his confession, but it has a piece of it that isn't consistent with the initial confession but is consistent with the later ones, that Jesse hit one of the boys. Now, Kim would say that Jesse told her the story on June 2, the day before he confessed to police. She was interviewed on June 5th. The details of his confession weren't published until June 7th. So what to make of this? Now, the thing about Kim Floresca that I don't know about. And you may recall this reminded me of when we did the murder and alliance case. There was a witness who knew details about the murder before anybody else would, and that was like a linchpin for us. The fact that she knew that told us, okay, this guy's actually guilty. It was a big part of that case. The problem with Kim Floresca and the thing that I don't have an explanation for is why didn't she testify? She would have been a powerful witness for the prosecution. And unlike several of these witnesses who are very helpful for the prosecution, it's not clear to me, like, I don't know, that Ron Lacks showed up at her house and told her not to testify. Like, I don't have anything like that. It's almost as if the prosecutors know about her. And I'm not sure what's going on with Kim Floresca. If she had testified to this at trial, this would be like blockbuster stuff. The fact that she didn't and she only told the newspaper undermines some of its importance. But the timing and the details do seem significant. Guys, it's hard to believe, but the summer is almost over. And as summer winds down, I'm all about refreshing my wardrobe with staple pieces for the season ahead. And that's where Quince comes in. They nail it with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished, perfect for layering and mixing. Their styles are so versatile, I find myself reaching for them again and again. I've talked a little bit about my sports coat that I got from Quince and something that I wore during the summer. I'm going to keep wearing it during the fall and the winter because it looks good and it feels good, too. And there's something for you at Quint as well. Think chic cashmere and cotton sweaters starting at just $40. Washable silk tops and classic denim pants. Timeless styles you'll keep coming back to. And the best part, everything with Quint is half the cost of similar brands.
- [58:51]
Alice
It's really true. I wear quints for both work. They're structured blazers. Their great silk tops travel great. They look sharp whenever I'm in the courtroom, but also when I go out at night, I get to wear my favorite Quint jeans. They're so comfortable, and they look fantastic. And they're able to give you these great prices by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. Quince gives you luxury without the markup, and Quints only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices. And premium fabrics and finishes. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com SL prosecutors.
- [59:46]
Brett
This is an ad by BetterHelp. Guys. As the summer drags on, there is a lot of pressure. Pressure to go out and do things, to see people, to have fun. But the fact of the matter is it's hot and you're busy and sometimes you just don't want to get out of bed in the morning. And there's so many things people tell you to do to make it all feel better than. There's advice for everything. Cold plunges, gratitude journals, screen detoxes. But how do you know what actually works for you? That's where BetterHelp can come in. Speaking to a therapist and talking about the issues in your life with someone who won't judge and someone who can understand your personal struggles can be so helpful.
- [60:32]
Alice
With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. And it's convenient, too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. Therapy isn't just for big traumatic events in your life. They can be for anyone and everyone. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of access, expertise. Talk it out with better help, our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com prosecutors that's betterhelp.com prosecutors yeah, and we've always said this before, right? And we saw this recently in the Karen Reid trial. Putting on the lineup of witnesses is a strategic endeavor. And. And you don't put up witnesses that you think are either it's duplicative testimony or you think that they have credibility issues. I've got to think that because she was interviewed, they were aware of her and they talked to her, but for whatever reason, they chose not to have her testify. We don't know why, and I don't think she's gonna call us back. But if Kim wants to talk to us, we are here to talk.
- [61:58]
Brett
And I just Want to reiterate, and we're about to talk another one of them. How frustrating it is to me that the number of people who had. There are multiple documentaries on this case. If you really wanted to get to the bottom of this case, there are so many people you should have been talking to. People like Kim Floresca, people like Buddy Lucas, lots of different individuals who gave important statements to the police and were never followed up on, and yet nobody ever did that. And it's so frustrating that people who had the resources and the opportunity to really dig into this case and maybe uncover some important information from all these witnesses just chose not to do it. So, hey, if there's somebody out there who wants. Wants us to do a documentary, I'm all about finding these people.
- [62:39]
Alice
So, yes. Okay. So one of the people that Brett just mentioned, Buddy Lucas. You remember Buddy Lucas because he's friends with Jesse. Remember, he asserted Jesse's innocence all along. But on October 14, 1993, Buddy Lucas gives a statement to police where he reveals that Jesse told him he'd hit the boys in the back of the head, and. And he kept them from running away. Now, October 14, 1993, means that Buddy Lucas's statement comes months after Jesse's confession, and the details of Jesse's confession were made public. So it's likely, actually, that Buddy would have had access to more details than Kim Floresca when he spoke to the police. But remember, Buddy was friends with Jesse, and previously, when police spoke with him, he kept making statements that asserted Jesse's innocence. So why now in October 1993, to essentially recant that and say, like, look, this is what Jesse told me. He told me he had a part in this. They hit the boys. He kept them from running away. So. And, Buddy, if you want to talk to us, we'd be happy. Happy to talk to you. Like, why the change? What happened within that time period as well? So although Jesse did write a letter to his family saying that he was not guilty, he actually doesn't recant his statement to his defense attorneys until September 24th. Even his father initially thought Jesse was at least present at the murders, despite the fact that he would end up being one of Jesse's alibi witnesses.
- [64:03]
Brett
Yeah. And so, you know, it's interesting that took him so long to recant. Buddy Lucas is an interesting witness as well. You may recall. He's the Adidas guy that supposedly Jesse gave shoes to. And did they have blood on them? Did they not have blood on them? Did they have mud on them? Did they not have Mud on them. I don't know. He changed his story so much, it's hard to say. But maybe Buddy is the type of witness who could corroborate Jesse's story. Then there's the jeans. Remember this, like, random detail. This is the thing. When you think about these confessions, think about the random details, because the high points can be fed to somebody, made up, whatever, but the random details. Remember this whole thing about jeans. Jesse says that Damien, he masturbates and. And then he wipes himself off with one of the boy's jeans.
- [64:54]
Alice
Okay? So remember, all of this stuff was sent to the Arkansas lab. And the Arkansas lab ran DNA tests on the clothes and ligatures, and they were unable to find much, given the technology at the time. But one test they ran did give a presumptive result for semen on the genes of one of the boys. Analyst Kermit Channel could not confirm this test. And in fact, he was so concerned that the result was a flash false positive that they sent this off to a DNA lab in Virginia. Now, that lab was able to confirm the presence of DNA on the pants, and it appeared to be male DNA consistent with sperm. Now, when they testify, the witness could not confirm that it was, in fact semen because confirmation required visibly seeing the sperm, and the lab didn't want to destroy the sample at that time. To my knowledge, the. This sample has never been retested. I don't know what state it's in, whether it's still there to be tested. But that's really, really interesting because remember that detail within Jesse's statement to his attorneys that Damien had masturbated and wiped himself off with one of the boy's pants. So the presence of sperm is just stunning, given, of course, that Bible confession. Now, this statement came after the trial and after the testimony, but it's difficult to believe that Jesse would somehow think to fabricate this part of the story, given that the testimony itself is highly technical. And they don't come out and just say there's semen. They say it's considered, you know, all of this kind of, like, medical possibilities, medical impossibilities of DNA consistent with male DNA that could be sperm, but there's no confirmation because you have to actually see sperm. Yes, Jesse sat through all of this. But those of you who've sat through, like, expert witness testimony, it's going to be highly technical. It's not narrative form at all. So even though the prosecution brought this out, they really didn't focus on it. And Jesse's Bible Confession hadn't happened yet, so they don't have a story to put along with that. That's not part of their speculation as to how that DNA consistent with male semen could have gotten on the genes.
- [67:00]
Brett
And look, if somebody out there knows that they retested this and this turned out to be a false positive, I'd love to know that. Happy to crack that on a future episode. But if that hasn't happened, you know, they're talking about doing DNA testing. They need to test this. If this still exists. And it seems like based on the testimony that the lab techs were smart, you know, they did the thing you desperately want them to do. They recognized we can't actually test this in a way that will tell us much, so we're not going to destroy it. I don't know if it still exists. I don't know if the genes still exist. I don't know if it's available to test. But if it is, test the genes. This could be the thing. Like, if you test them and it turns out that there's no semen, there's no sperm, nothing, well, then you can say, look, this undermines Jesse's Bible confession, because he heard that, and it was something that he. Some really minor thing that he nevertheless included in the confession. That would seem to tell you that he did that with a lot of stuff that could do that. Obviously, if you tested it and suddenly you've got male DNA and sperm and everything else, well, then. Then we got a different story altogether, particularly if you could get some sort of DNA signature out of that. So I don't know what's going to happen with all this testing. They always want to test the ligatures because they've been tested before, and there was no DNA from any of the West Memphis Three. So, of course, that's what the West Memphis three want to test, because they're pretty sure there's not going to be any DNA from them on it. If you're going to test it, test it all. Just test it all. I don't see any reason not to. And I think you could make huge headway in really dispelling any remaining doubt in the innocence of the West Memphis Three. If you did things like test the genes and it comes up negative. So we talked about the details of the confessions, we've talked about the corroborating evidence, but is it even possible? So the confession is in many ways a mirror. Whatever you bring to it is what you'll see in it. If you think the West Memphis Three did it? There is plenty in these confessions to confirm that belief. If you think they're innocent, it's very easy to poke holes. But given what we know about the timeline, is it even possible? Okay, we've talked about this before. So the last sighting I think that we can be certain about, about the boys is at 6:30. There's a later sighting, but it's a little questionable when Jeff Martin sees the boys heading towards the Robin Hood area. And look, you can question this sighting and that's fine, but assume for now it's true. At the same time, Jesse is over at Stephanie Dollar's house where Connie Mulder is slapping Cody Dollar. And I'll just go ahead and tell you whatever you believe about this case. I absolutely think Jesse was there. I think he was there. I just do. You know, I could be wrong about that, but I just think he was there for this event. It feels like he was there for this event even though the cops say they didn't see him, which he says is a lie, which I think is an interesting part of his statement because it would have been so easy just to say, yeah, I wasn't there. I said that I was trying to create an alibi but I was really off killing the boys. But no, he's like, no, I was absolutely there and the cops absolutely lied about it. So I think he was there. Okay, so Dollar lived in a trailer in Highland Trailer Park One road over from Jesse. The police arrive at 6:30 and he leaves. At some point, Jesse has gone to Vicki Hutchinson's house where she gives him this bottle of Evan Williams. Her home is also in Highland, so not much of a walk. In his statement he says he went after the Dollar incident though, you know, this is a detail that could be transposed. Now why is that important? And what I mean by that is he could have gone to her house first, got the Evan Williams bottle, then seen the slap. The problem is time here is really running short. Jesse needs to start walking to Lakeshore where he runs into Damien and Jason. They then head to the woods. And this walk would take at least 30 minutes, probably more like 45.
- [70:57]
Alice
So assume that Jesse leaves the Dollar residence and walks over to Vicky's house. And the whiskey transfer takes say 15 minutes. He then walks down to Lakeshore. Best case, Jesse's there by 7 o'. Clock. Now the three of them then walk to the murder scene, arriving at best 7:30 and at worst 7:45 or even 8:00pm the sun is setting and there are maybe 45 minutes left until it's dark. So is this possible? Yes, but it's a really tight timeline, really as tight as a timeline as it could be. And it's difficult, though not impossible, to believe that the kids would still still be out in those woods given how much trouble they're going to get into. We've talked about this. We don't have a good answer for this because if it is already 7:30 and they're still out there playing when they should have been home, one of the boys at least should have been home like by 4:30, how are they still out there without like a care in the world or at least someone being angry that they're out there. So the boys would have been in the woods for at least an hour at this point. At the same time of course, that their parents are actively looking for them and they know because the sun is setting that they should not be where they are now. This contradicts part of Jesse's statement. He says that they were in the woods when the boys arrived. Remember he says they heard a noise, they hid, Damien sat there. But there's no way that's true because of the timing of things. And this is an aspect of Jesse's statement that has been consistent that the boys came after the three of them were already in the woods. So it's likely for this reason that in Jesse's trial the state pushed back so vociferously on the notion that Jesse was present at the infamous Cody Dollar event. If the prosecution had the three police officers who were at the Dollars testified that they did not see Jesse despite knowing him well because the Stephanie Dollar just really throws a wrench into this whole timeline. The problem is that so many people saw Jesse at Stephanie's. Josh Darby testified that he saw Jesse at dollars at around 4pm with his girlfriend. This is consistent with Jesse's own story that he went to her house to babysit. Ricky Dees, who Jesse worked for, testified that when he went to his house to get Jesse for more work, his father said he'd gone to the Dollars house. Susie Brewer said that she went to see Jesse at 4:00'. Clock. She says they walked around the trailer park and she said he left Stephanie dollars at around 7 o'clock to go wrestling after going back to her house around 6:30. So this testimony of course is highly questionable as she doesn't mention the fight or the police showing up, which seems to be something that would have been memorable. So she may have just mistaken another time that they were at the Dollar's.
- [73:31]
Brett
House and she's obviously Jesse's girlfriend too. So it's a little questionable whether or not she's telling the truth. But nevertheless, we do have some people who are independent who are putting Jesse at Stephanie's. Now we really can only put him there at around 4. Now Stephanie$ would testify that as told this slapping incident that when she heard about it, she heard about it at around 5 o' clock and she called the police and Dollar wasn't actually at her house, she was at Johnny Dedman's house just down the street. The police would show up, the police would leave and Jesse talks to Stephanie. According to her, he leaves at around 6:45. Christy Joan Moss confirms the story saying that she saw Jesse speaking to Stephanie and after the incident. Mossa's statement is suspect, though she had spoken to officers before and never mentioned any of this. Moreover, she was working nights at Shoney's at that time. So it's a little unclear if she even would be present for this incident. Then you have Charles Ashley Jr. He also confirmed seeing Jesse at Stephanie's But Ashley's testimony is not quite as helpful as you might think as he has Jesse walking away as the police are arriving, not staying till after they leave, which could push this back a little bit because there's a spectrum here. There's Jesse wasn't there at all. He wasn't there for the slap at all. That's the one extreme. The other extreme is he stayed throughout, stayed till the police left, he's there until late, then he goes wrestling. But somewhere in the middle is he sees the cop show up and he bounces, which Jesse might well do because he's had some negative interactions with the police. So then you have Jim McNeese. He testifies that he sees Jesse as Stephanie Dollars and that he saw Jesse speak to one of the police, just like Jesse will say. And he says this occurred at around 6:30. Then you have Lewis Hoggard who's testifying to seeing Jesse at dollars between 6 and 6:30. And he's interesting because he was a trucker and he had logged off duty at 5:30, meaning that his sighting of Jesse had to be well after that. So if he's telling the truth, it would have had to have been more in the 6 o' clock hour.
- [75:41]
Alice
However, these men both describe Jesse as speaking to a police officer with the story being that Jesse was telling the officer that Stephanie wasn't home. In fact, even though we've referred to the police coming out to Stephanie Dollar's house, remember she's actually gone to a neighbor's house where Jesse supposedly directed officers. But we know that the police didn't go to the neighbors until they were called a second time, which doesn't fit with this story. And of course, all the officers testify that they did not recall seeing or speaking to Jesse. But the biggest piece of evidence for Jesse being at Stephanie Dollar's house, Jesse's own statement in that Bible confession, Jesse says that he started the night at Stephanie's house and he spoke with the police about the slapping incident. So that seals it, right? Maybe the thing about Jesse's confession is even if part of it or even most of it is true, we know that some of it is not. And just like Jesse could have gotten some of the details from the murder from his trial, this aspect of this day was so well testified to at the trial. So it's possible that Jesse simply included it in his Bible confession to make the rest of his story more believable. But most likely Jesse, guilty or innocent, really probably was at Stephanie Dollars. And that fact must be accounted for in the story of this murder because it is definitely a part of this timeline. So let's say that Jesse was at Stephanie Dollar's house for the slap. Is it fatal to the conviction, is it fatal to the narrative that the prosecution is putting forward? Obviously not. We know that this murder happened fairly late and we know that whoever did it was arguably in the woods until the 9 o' clock hour, cleaning, trying to cover their tracks. So it makes it possible that Jesse could have done this. But the timeline is incredibly, incredibly tight.
- [77:34]
Brett
And I like so much in this case, I mean, this is, this is what makes this case both so intriguing and so frustrating, is there are just questions that we cannot answer. And one of the biggest ones why the boys were in those woods and why they were there so late. You may recall Christopher Byers was, I believe it was Christopher was particularly afraid of the woods and afraid of the dark. And you just have to imagine that he's out there and maybe it's because the other boys are giving him the courage he needs, but he's out there in those woods as it's getting dark, because even though we've talked about how, you know, the sun's setting but it's not quite dark yet, it's obviously darker in the woods. When were they going to leave? Like, if they had not interacted with whoever did this to them, when were they going to leave? And it's made a lot of people believe that these later sightings are just wrong. And that, in fact, this murder happened a lot earlier. And as we've said before, this was never nailed down. We can't nail it down now. All we can do is tell you what people told the police, and that is what is frustrating about this case, because if we knew for certain the last time those boys were seen, it would answer a lot of these questions for us. But we can't do that. All we can do is speculate. All right, well, that's three episodes on Jesse's Confessions. I dare say you heard more detail about those confessions than you ever have before. Like I said, most people stop with the first one as if he never did anything else. And these later confessions are fascinating. So hope you guys got something out of that. Interested to hear what you think. Shoot us an email. Prosecutors pod gmail.com Prosecutors pod For all your social media. Come join us on the gallery, on Facebook. If you want to watch us record these early and ad free and experience all of our technical difficulties, join Patreon for as little as $3 a month. You can wait 15, 30 minutes, 45 minutes for us to start a live recording because we're having problems. Or if that doesn't sound exciting to you, you also can get your episodes early and ad free with all the technical difficulties edited out. So next week, we're gonna move on from the West Memphis three for now, and we're going to talk about some alternative suspects. We'll be talking about Mr. Bojangles in detail. We'll be talking about Terry Hobbs and John Mark Byers and some other people, LG Hollingsworth and some other people that maybe you haven't heard of before but are nevertheless pretty interesting suspects. All right, Alice, we could answer a question. I don't know. Do you want to answer a question? Sure. Why not?
- [80:03]
Alice
This was a tough episode. The autopsy episodes were really tough. But hearing it all in narrative form, whether it's true or not, it's a tough one.
- [80:12]
Brett
No, that's true. I mean, if Jesse's making this up, he makes up a very disturbing story, and one that even if it's not true about him and the other two, nevertheless, you could imagine happening. I mean, you could imagine someone else is in those woods and the boys come upon him. The thing that is so striking to me about Jesse's Confessions is the notion that Damien grabs one of the boys and the other two jump on Damien to try and get him to stop, you know, leave our friend alone. I totally can see that. I mean, that, to me, it's it's so believable. Oh, and it's so evocative. I mean, you can see it in your mind. He tells that story, and it's like, wow. I mean, that totally could have happened. So I don't know. I don't know if that means anything, but it is a disturbing story nevertheless.
- [81:00]
Alice
So, yes, let's do a question. Is my point, because this was so disturbing and because you guys waited so long for me.
- [81:08]
Brett
All right, this is from LHatch27. They would like to know if you could create a new holiday, what would it be and how would people celebrate it? That's interesting.
- [81:18]
Alice
All I know about holidays is you guys don't let my kids go to school. I have no childcare, which leads to all my technical difficulties. So I don't know if more holidays are in my interest.
- [81:30]
Brett
You know, it is funny when you don't have kids, you love holidays, and then you have kids, you're like, holiday just means more childcare. It's kind of like when you're a lawyer and you're billing time. If you're billing, holidays are terrible because it's the day you can't bill. It's not actually a day off. It's just a day you have to make up some other time.
- [81:47]
Alice
You now have to fit that one day's worth of work into the remaining days left.
- [81:51]
Brett
That is the worst part about being a lawyer at a big law firm. Where you have to bill is there's no vacation, there's no day off, there's no weekend that doesn't feel like a day that you could be billing that you're not billing. And you're gonna have to make that up later.
- [82:05]
Alice
Okay, we haven't actually answered their question. Let's put on our happy hats and say, what would you recommend?
- [82:10]
Brett
I know what I would do.
- [82:11]
Alice
What would you do?
- [82:12]
Brett
So I wouldn't make up a holiday so much as there's a holiday that I wish was celebrated. And it's Val Purgus Night. The Beltane. I mean, this is an appropriate time to talk about it. Like, I love Halloween, as you guys know, but in other cultures, in Scotland and Scandinavia, the Beltane is a huge deal. And people have these big parties, and they build these huge bonfires, and it's just an amazing, you know, night that people come together and they celebrate to chase off the demons or whatnot. So I think having a second Halloween in the spring would be great. One day, I either want to go to Scotland or Sweden, Norway and Iceland, and experience the Beltane celebrations. Apparently the one they have at Edinburgh Castle in Scotland is amazing. So I want to do that. So that would be the holiday. Like I said, I'm not creating it so much is getting us to actually celebrate it in the United States.
- [83:08]
Alice
That's great. Along those same lines. Okay. I really do. I'm not being a naysayer. I really do love holidays, obviously. But what I love about that, what you just described and holidays like that we just celebrated July 4th is the communal aspect. I think a lot, at least we are obviously, you know, in the United States. A lot of the United States holidays are so like solitary. Like you only you have to like make plans with people or most people are out of town. And you don't get to like communally celebrate things. For example, when I was younger, like, I don't know if this was just my family or if this is how like people in Taiwan celebrated the New Year. But like. And Chinese New Year itself is like super fun. But the actual calendar New Year, the entire neighborhood would go outside and you. Fireworks are meant to, at least in the Asian cultures, is meant to scare off evil spirits to start off the year. Great. But like, all the kids would just be like throwing, you know, we'd be banging pots and cymbals and like, you have to walk certain number of times because numerology is really important in the Chinese culture. But like the whole neighborhood went out and did this. It was like a little parade at midnight, you know, it was so fun. I wish we did more of our holidays where we all celebrated together like that. I had a great time. July 4th, we ended up having like. You were there too. That was a impromptu party. Not on purpose, but it was super fun. There were like what, 30, 40 of us, you know, gathered outside to watch the fireworks and you know, my kids were wrestling each other like crazy on pavement. There were a lot of scratches and everyone was up way too late. But I think holidays where we get to really, you know, celebrate as a community is really fun.
- [84:39]
Brett
Yeah. And we don't do that in the United States. It best. That's what I'm saying. Family based, you know, like Thanksgiving, Christmas, you're going to spend that time with your family. July 4th is the closest you get.
- [84:48]
Alice
I think that's right.
- [84:49]
Brett
And it's only at the end with the fireworks. Right. Like, I used to love going down to the mall when I lived in D.C. get to the mall early. I had to get there early and like, just experience the whole day, like go into the museums, whatever, and Then watch the fireworks. But we really don't have those kind of communal celebrations. And I was in Shanghai for Chinese New Year.
- [85:12]
Alice
I mean, how fun was that?
- [85:13]
Brett
It was amazing. It was amazing.
- [85:15]
Alice
I mean, like the best holiday ever.
- [85:16]
Brett
It was like three days of celebrations. It was amazing.
- [85:19]
Alice
Everyone's actually off work.
- [85:21]
Brett
Yeah, everybody's having fun. They're all together. You know, it's just, it's really cool. And I remember we were staying. So first we kind of moved around because like I said, it was like over three or four days and then the last day being the actual Chinese New Year and we were staying at a friend's apartment and it was on like the 20th floor of a high rise building and we stood on the balcony and like the fireworks are like exploding like in front of our faces. And it was just. I've never seen anything like it. If you took every fireworks celebration in the United States on July 4th and put it in one city, that's what Chinese New Year is like with no regulations.
- [85:58]
Alice
Like, it's not safe at all.
- [86:00]
Brett
Yeah, it's the most. It's like wild. Yeah, that's fun.
- [86:05]
Alice
So I do like, I do love that question. There was one point, I don't even know if you were standing by me at this point because it's like pitch black. I said, we just had a couple, you know, flashlights running around outside waiting for the fireworks to start. There were like a bunch of little boys, my son's like classmates. They're, they're like all these seven year old boys who are just running wild and it's pitch black outside and there are like ponds around. Right. Like they could totally fall into it. And the only way I could control them is I was like, hey, I bet you guys don't know the Pledge of Allegiance. I actually didn't know if they knew. I didn't know if they knew the Pledge of Allegiance because I don't think they say it at school. I was just trying to think of something on theme and it got all the boys to like turn snap to attention and they screamed the Pledge of Allegiance at the top of their lungs. There were lots of people around us. They looked at us like we were crazy, but it was hilarious and it was so fun and like just, you know, just the best. So maybe we should start celebrating. I want Thanksgiving to be like that. Thanksgiving should be like that, where we spend a ton of time, you know, with people and just eat all day. But I usually just spend it with family.
- [87:05]
Brett
I'll give you another example. So I Learned about something last night, actually. I was watching something. I can't remember what it's called, but I'm gonna describe it, so. But it's the emotional feeling you get when you are engaged in an activity with multiple people, with like a big group of people. And the example that was used is when you're at a sporting event and like Country Roads comes on and everyone in the stadium singing Country Roads. And you don't know these people, but you're like got your arms around them, you're swaying back and forth, and there's like an emotion that you only feel in that kind of circumstance. And a good example of this for me was I was in Munich for. Not Oktoberfest, but they have a spring beer fest which is far less touristy. And this one, they make the strong beer, so that really gets you drunk, right? It was me and my wife, and we were like the only foreigners there. And everybody else was German. And we're in like this Munich beer hall and I'm wearing this shirt that says Believe in America. And this one German's like, what is that? And I was like, it's patriotic. And he goes, oh, patriotism is illegal in Germany. And I was like, yeah, but we're standing on tables with these massive, like, steins of beer singing, like, songs that I don't even. Like in languages.
- [88:16]
Alice
I don't even know my sofa.
- [88:17]
Brett
It was amazing. I mean, it was, like, amazing, and it was just so awesome. And we just don't do that. And I don't know why.
- [88:25]
Alice
Bring it back. Bring it back. I don't know. Bring it.
- [88:28]
Brett
For the first time, I feel like we used to. And. And I don't know, we're just so isolated.
- [88:32]
Alice
It's just the communal aspect. We need to bring more community back. Okay, so all of you guys going to Crimecon, let's make this a great party celebration.
- [88:40]
Brett
You know, that was a cool thing people used to do.
- [88:42]
Alice
Well, we can't even, like, go trick or treating now because people like poison candy and whatever.
- [88:48]
Brett
Oh, no. There you go. Great question. Well, look, for some of you, this is sad. Here we are in episode 20. It's looking like 22 could be the last episode of the West Memphis Three. And then we'll all have to move on without the podcast. So it's going to be sad for everybody, but we're going to do the best we can. Two episodes left to go. Hope you guys enjoy it. Maybe. Maybe three. We'll see. Let's see how it goes. But okay, we'll be back next week with alternative suspects. But until then, I'm Brett.
- [89:20]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [89:21]
Brett
And we are the prosecutor. I wish I get to 25. I wish I could.
- [89:45]
Alice
I was gonna say, I don't think it's only two left. I think that was real aggressive. I. I feel like we're, like. I think I'm gonna say 24. I think we're more at 24. And if we're at 24, might as well go to 25. I mean, we'll do a Q A of what we learned along the way.
- [90:00]
Brett
Yeah. I just don't know how we get there. I mean, if you look at.
- [90:05]
Alice
There's still kind of a lot, though. I don't know. Maybe not.
- [90:10]
Brett
Well, depends on.
- [90:11]
Alice
I mean, we're recording another one tomorrow. Like.
- [90:14]
Brett
Yeah, that's true. I was gonna make it a bonus episode, but if.
- [90:17]
Alice
I mean. Well, maybe it's a bonus episode, but it's still a number. Sam. They are. They come from different perspectives, and if you don't listen to the. I think they should be separate.
- [91:22]
Brett
If we do that, we get to at least 24.
- [91:24]
Alice
I think we're. That's why I thought we were 24. And we're really at 20. 25. Let's be honest.
- [91:27]
Brett
And if we do. If we stretch the theories episodes long enough, we could get to 25.
- [91:34]
Alice
I don't think they need to be stretched. I think there's just so much to talk about. Sam.
- [92:21]
Brett
Just when you thought summer couldn't get any hotter, Pluto TV is turning up the heat with thousands of free movies presenting Summer of Cinema. Stream your favorite blockbuster films like Gladiator.
- [92:33]
Alice
I will have my vineyards.
- [92:34]
Brett
Good burger. This is what I do. Fast Speed, Beverly Hills Cop, the Girl with a Dragon Tattoo, and Julian Julia. Bon appetit. All for free on your favorite devices. Pluto TV Stream now pay. Never.