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- [00:00]
A
Searching for a romantic summer getaway escape with Rich Girl Summer, the new Audible original from Lily Chiu, the exquisitely talented Philippa Hsu. Returning to narrate her fifth Lily Chu title. This time Philippa is joined by her real life husband, Steven Pasquale. Set in Toronto's wealthy cottage country, AKA the Hamptons of Canada, Rich Girl Summer follows the story of Valerie, a down on her luck event planner posing as a socialite's long lost daughter while piecing together the secrets surrounding a mysterious family and falling deeper and deeper in love with the impossibly hard to read and infuriatingly handsome family assistant, Nico. Caught between pretending to belong and unexpectedly finding where she truly fits in, Valerie learns her summer is about to get far more complicated than she ever planned. She's in over her head and head over heels. Listen to Rich Girl Summer now on audible. Go to audible.com richgirlsomer hi, I'm Jesse Perry. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, wife, where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
- [01:40]
B
I'm Brett.
- [01:41]
C
And I'm Alice and we are the.
- [01:44]
B
Prosecut today on the Prosecutors. Terry Hobbs joins us to give his side of the story. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined with several people today. I have Alice, my eternal co host, Julia from the Consult. Always glad to have her. And our special guest, Terry Hobbs. Terry, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show with us and discuss this case. We really appreciate it.
- [02:56]
D
Well, thank you and thank you for having me. I'm sure there's a lot we can share.
- [03:01]
B
I'm sure there is. And Terry, you know, I think it's always 1993 for people when they're thinking about this case and thinking about the boys and what happened. But I'm actually interested before we start talking about that, a little bit about your life and how things have been going in the last decade or so. Well, after this case and after the West Memphis three were released from prison, what have you been up to? What has your life been like?
- [03:26]
D
Well, I've moved up here to the Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. Left Memphis in 2020. And again, I think when I left Memphis, I left a big part of this story in Memphis. Moved from West Memphis to Memphis, and I lived In Memphis roughly 33, 34 years, something like that. And then, you know, I moved up here. And what they call up here is God's country. It is pretty up here during the summer, spring, summer and fall and winter times. It's just winter time. But I've moved on. I went to work. I finally went to where I retired at 62. And I was able to do that when we left Memphis. And I was really fortunate to be a part of the company. I was with my last 15 working years in Memphis. Okay. He sent us off with the biggest bonus that would just make you cry. And it did. I was not expecting that. He told us, he said, once you get up there and start your life. So I did, you know, and I went after about four years of just doing nothing or doing whatever we wanted to do, you know, And I got tired of not doing something, so I went to work for a company. I wasn't happy with that, so I walked away from that. And I went to work for a company that the state is. Funded it and the federal government funds it, and it's a transportation company that would transport people anywhere they want to go. And I have met some cool people, young and old, and just get to work and do something for them. This is a service where we provide for them. And that is, to me, that's the blessing that you can. You're able to do that. And I'm glad that I get to be a part of it. And I think they're happy to have me. They come down, some of the people from the office come down, walked in not long ago, said, there's our star. You know, I didn't want to hear that, but, you know, that's. People look at you like that. Once they look into you and find out what they want to find out, well, they all this other pops up. So couldn't hide it. I tried, but couldn't hide it. And I kind of still keep it to myself because I want to get out here and be a blessing to other people. And that's what I get to do. And I'm just tickled to death about it.
- [05:56]
A
And, Tara, we won't spend a lot of time on this part, but you brought it up with people looking into you and saying, there's our star. You know, there's lots of ways to carry a tragedy. A massive part of what has happened in your life with you, how do you see your interaction or your relationship with that sentiment of your star being well known outside of your immediate circles nowadays? I mean, you're clearly speaking with us and we truly appreciate your time, but how do you interact with that and how do you carry it with you?
- [06:26]
D
Well, it's there. And that part of it would never leave, you know, and I still, on the anniversary dates, we just had one, and I still do a little, you know, I used to blow it up and do a big memorial when I lived in Memphis. I drive over to West Memphis and blow it up. But up here, it's more, you know, low key. And I still don't get out here and share with people, but I try to keep it to myself and stay out of people's way and out of the limelight. Even though you, you know, good old meteors from Memphis today, you can't run from them. They look you up and they call you, want you to. And I don't do that. I don't trust them. And, you know, so I try to stay out of the limelight, if you will. I hope I answered your question. Oh.
- [07:14]
A
Oh, you absolutely do. I think we were all on. We were all on mute. We were all a little bit on mute. And I mean, with that said, truly, thank you. I can't imagine how many people do reach out to you, wanting to talk to you and, you know, I think you've heard our podcast before. We truly come from this, from a place of we wanting to see all sides of the issues. And I know your name has been part of a lot of media, but I don't know that you've necessarily been able to speak your side of the story. So I really thank you for coming on today. We're recording late at night for those of you who are listening to this in normal hours. So thank you for giving us, you know, your night to help us understand something that's incredibly, I know, sensitive and dear to your heart and dear to millions of people around the world. So thank you.
- [07:58]
D
Well, you're welcome. You know, this is. It's been a life changer, you know, and it does. It just beats you up. There's so many things that you wonder about, you think about. All through the years, you know, we've always wondered why, you know, why our children, why did this even happen, how the boys that was charged with this had backgrounds like they did, how come they wasn't addressed back then? And you never get all the answers that you're looking for. But you know, you have to accept some things that you don't want and then you have to pick up, move on and do the best you can.
- [08:34]
B
And I did want to mention as we start, even though you're telling your story on here, you have, you have a book box full of nightmares, which we've mentioned before on the podcast. If you want an in depth telling of this story from Terry's perspective, I recommend that book. I picked it up, I read it, and it was very insightful. So I did appreciate that it is.
- [08:53]
D
And you know, I think we may work on a book too. Them set off some things for the start of the book too. And then there's a documentary that we're working on to be released. And I think folks are really going to like it because there's a lot of insight there that hopefully that means something. But I'm sure there's folks that don't care. But, you know, you just tell the truth through this thing. My truth has never changed. But I've hear so many other stories that, you know, you just wonder where they get it from, but it's out there.
- [09:26]
B
So, going back to May of 1993, let's talk about Stevie a little bit. What was your relationship like with Stevie? What kind of dad would he say you were?
- [09:35]
D
Well, he called me Daddy Terry. He asked me one time, can I do that? I said, well, sure, you know. And to me, he was just a little blonde hair boy, blue eyes and full of life. And he loved his Ninja Turtle and he loved Every Rose, had his Thorn song. He just, I mean, when that was on, it was. He took the stage, you know, and he was a good little boy. I kept him together, you know, and I would help him at nighttime when he in the evenings do his homework from school, because Pam just wouldn't or couldn't. I think she couldn't, but she wouldn't either. So he would ask me, you know, would you help me with my homework? Well, I said, sure. And we kept him on the principal's list, which in their school, Weaver elementary, it was the highest that the kids could get on was the principal's list. He was on that list for the couple years that he went to that school. But yeah, Stevie was a good little boy. We took him in to get his haircut that he had that he was wearing the day of May 5, and it was a spike haircut. And he sat down and Barbara asked him, he said, what kind of haircut? He kind of looked at me like he was expecting me to Tell him and see these. Spoke at me, said, I want a spike. So he gave him a spike haircut. We was fine, you know, as long as he was comfortable, he enjoyed himself, he had a good home. I think we had a 33,000gallon in ground swimming pool in the back of this home. And that's where we all lived during the summertime, in that pool.
- [11:11]
C
Terri, what was your schedule like before May 5th? Like a typical day, like Stevie, schedule, your schedule. What was it like? Can you remember? Like what the. Like you would go to work and come home and then what were your normal activities?
- [11:29]
D
Well, at the time now, I started working for an ice cream company, Memphis Ice Cream Company was the name of it. And living in west Memphis, I had a five or six mile commute and that's what I would do every morning I'd leave. Here's how this ice cream company worked. If you left early and run your route and you got off it, you got through at noon, well, you could come in, you know, get your day set up for the next day and go home. So I mean, there's days that you'd be home at 1 o', clock, 2 o', clock, 3 o', clock. If you was come home at 4 o', clock, that was late, you know, no one ever did that. So, you know, I was a working man and I just get up, go to work, come home. And if Pam was working, she worked at the Catfish island restaurant as a waitress. And at that time I would run her to work and pick her up when she got off and I'd go back home, it would be me, Stevie, and then Amanda come along, our daughter, and it'd be us three just having fun at home. First thing would do, I would get with him and get his homework done, get that out of the way and then the rest of the evening was their evening.
- [12:39]
C
Was he usually home with you? Was May 5th different that day? Because I think I've heard you say before, when you got home, he wasn't there. Was that unusual for him not to be home when you got home?
- [12:52]
D
Right, right. He was always home. You know, for some reason, Pam, she just let him. She told me, she said he just kept on and on and on wanting to go ride his bicycle. He had a new bicycle his granddad bought him and he wanted to go ride with Michael Moore. And Michael Moore would come by and see if he'd go. In that particular day, they own and own. Can I go ride? Can I? Pam finally said yes. So he was gone. When I come Home, he was gone.
- [13:21]
C
On a regular day. When you get home and he was there and you'd help him with his homework, did he usually go off and play after he got his homework done? Was he allowed to do that or did he usually stay with you through the evenings?
- [13:35]
D
No, he was allowed. Now when I was at home and Pam was working, I would let him ride his bicycle, but I would let him ride in front of the house on the sidewalk. I'd tell him stay off the streets, but you can ride up from down there to down here where I could keep an eye on him. If I was home by myself with them, I wouldn't let him ride all over town, not one time.
- [13:58]
A
And Terry and sorry, I know we're asking you to remember something so far back when he would typically on a regular day be finished with his homework and he could go out and play. Do you know about like what hour that would be based on what time school got out, you know, what time dinner was? Was there about a time that he would be able to go out and play once he was done?
- [14:15]
D
No, once he got his homework done, eat supper. You're roughly in the time frame of 5:30, 6 o', clock, whatever. Couldn't have been seven, could have been six, I'm not sure. But he was always allowed to go outside. And like I said earlier, during the summertime, it wasn't out front of the house, it was behind the house because we had that big pool and it had a diving board on one end, had a spiral slide on the other end, and it was hard to get any of us away from that pool. During the summertime, he didn't focus his outside time in the front of the house, riding bicycle all the time because that pool was every his home.
- [14:58]
C
And when he went off to play, was he usually playing or riding his bike with Michael and Christopher? Were those his two closest friends?
- [15:07]
D
Right. I think it was another little young man named George. George would come around sometimes and I don't think Chris had a bicycle at the time, but Chris would come over and, you know, if we let him ride it. Stevie was only, when I was home, was only allowed to ride from two or three houses down. Either way, this, you know, stay where we can see. Yeah, that's just the way I was.
- [15:33]
B
So it sounds like based on what you said, Stevie typically good kid, he did what he was told that day. My understanding is Pam told him to be home around 4:30. Obviously he wasn't. Was it unusual for him if he was given a time? Hey, this Is the time you need to be home. Was it unusual for him not to be home when he was supposed to be?
- [15:53]
D
Well, you know what? To me, that's the only time that he had a time because we would always tell him, come in before it gets dark, you know, and. But he wouldn't be all through the neighborhood. He'd like I said, when I'm home, he was just up and down from the house on the sidewalk. And if you catch him in the street, you know, I think it was a time when I bought a lawnmower, riding lawnmower, and I took the cage off of it, the blades off of it, just so I could ride up down the street, you know. Then I would let them come out right up down the street with us, you know, so somebody had to be the big dog.
- [16:29]
A
And Terry, this is fresh on my mind because I have young kids and I just put them to bed. About what time was typical bedtime for Stevie in this May time? You know, it's starting to get lighter out, the weather's good. What was his typical bedtime?
- [16:43]
D
Well, now, here's one thing that Pam and I had always talked about. Nine o', clock, we want you in the bed. And we tell them, the kids, if you have everything done, plans, Google work, homework, whatever, you know, let's get you in bed by 9 o' clock so we can get you up the next morning and go school.
- [17:01]
A
And so when you said, like, you know, around dark, come on home. If bedtime's nine, was there a typical time that he'd be home in time to do all the things he has to do to get ready for bed? Would it be like 8 o' clock or another time?
- [17:14]
D
Well, remember, his schoolwork come first before playtime. That was just the rule of the home. After schoolwork was done, eat supper, then do your schoolwork before you go outside. The schoolwork had to be done because we wanted, you know, it's just Southern for you, I guess, get your homework done, then go have fun. And we did. Well, let him do that.
- [17:36]
B
So you said. This is probably a dumb question based on what you've said, but you said usually he was supposed to be playing sort of either in the front in that general area of the home or maybe in the back. Do you know if before this day he ever went to Robin Hood Hills?
- [17:52]
D
I never heard of Robin hood Hills until May 5th. I never even paid attention. I would. I drove past that wooded area year and never knew it was called Robin Hood and never knew there was ditches out There for kids played, never knew there was even pass through there. And I couldn't tell you. But the best of my knowledge I would think that he didn't know nothing about Robin Hood. We didn't let him go over to Mike and Christopher's house and stay the day, you know, the night and come home. I didn't let him do that. So I don't know if he knew it and I didn't know it, but I would say no. I don't think he even heard of Robin or knew of it.
- [18:36]
C
Did he get his homework done that day? Do you remember? Did he sit down and do it? Did any signs that he had been home to do his homework and then went out?
- [18:45]
D
I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. When I come home he wasn't home. Pam was cooking supper. And so I'm gonna say that he didn't do his homework because Pam wouldn't do it with him. And so. And I couldn't tell you. But he wasn't there. So I don't know, I would think.
- [19:03]
C
Not of the boys and his friends, who was the leader of them? Was there a leader that you remember?
- [19:10]
D
Well, that eight year old boys have.
- [19:12]
C
My leader, that's there's always one.
- [19:14]
D
Yeah, but I guess Michael Moore, you know, he rode around, he carried this plastic police badge, but he would flash it. He come in our house and flash that badge and I would just, you know, have a little fun with it. So I don't know if you would call him the leader. They were just three little eight year old boys. None of them, once they got in the house would take the floor, you know, like there was in charge, you know, but they would just come in. Christopher had a crush on Amanda and he was 8 and she was 4. And I'm just check this out. One day he come in, he's standing there, he's getting ready to leave. And I'm sitting over here in the probably recliner on the couch or somewhere, but I'm sitting there watching him and he just staring at Amanda. And I look over, I said, boy, what you staring at? And he says Amanda. And I said, well, you better get out here and go home, you know. So we had fun with them like that, you know. And I don't know if you could say there was a leader.
- [20:14]
C
Did any of them seem to get more into mischief than others that you ever noticed?
- [20:21]
D
Not at my home. I didn't play that. 38, something like 35 and no ma', am, you don't come get mischief at my house, you get run off.
- [20:32]
C
And Stevie pretty much obeyed you most of the time. You'd say, well, we didn't.
- [20:39]
D
We didn't have rules and laws and all that that they had to go by. You know, I tell. I told them back then and I told my daughter all through the years. I got one rule at my home. And they'd all tell, you do right. I said, that's all you gotta do. You do right, and you can do anything you want.
- [20:58]
C
And do you remember the last time you saw Stevie?
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D
May 4th.
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C
May 4th. When was that, and what was that like for you?
- [21:06]
D
Well, it's just another typical day. Probably doing some homework with him and, you know, another day in the pool, because it was hot that time of the year in West Memphis. So I'm sure we was in the.
- [21:18]
C
Pool that day, regular night before, put him to bed. And then you must have been up and had gone to work before he even woke up.
- [21:27]
D
I would think, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm up early. You know, back then, if I could leave the house around 5, get over to the ice cream company around between 5 and 5:30, like. And the sooner you left that ice cream plant and was that means your day got started, so the sooner you get back. And I was just one of them guys that got there and busted and work, get done, come in, go. But I wanted to get in that pool, too.
- [21:57]
B
I was just gonna ask, I mean, if he'd been gone for a while, if he got hungry at some point, could he have come home and eaten anything without you knowing it, or were you sort of around the whole time, if that makes sense.
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D
On the 5th?
- [22:10]
B
On the 5th?
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D
Well, I've heard that there was food in his stomach. I've heard that through the years, during the trials, I've heard that. And I'm not going to say he came home because I don't know. I'm not going to say he didn't either, at someone else's place, because I don't know. So I don't know where he got that at.
- [22:30]
B
But there wasn't. Like, to your knowledge and your recollection, there wasn't like a plate sitting on the table that looked like it had food on it that he could have eaten or anything like that. Any sign of him coming back?
- [22:40]
D
His plate was on the table? It sure was. Pam made it and left it on the table. Now, when we came home, we probably didn't even notice if it'd been missing. Any of it was gone, you know, because there was so Much that happened so quick and we didn't even pay attention to what was on the table. We just want to know where they that.
- [23:01]
A
And you had mentioned your daughter. How old was she in 1993 at this time?
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D
Four years old.
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A
Four. So would she also play outside around this time or was she kind of always going to be home inside because she was younger?
- [23:15]
D
Well, she was in the pool. We was all in the pool. I mean, if she went out front, I don't think she even had a bicycle at that time. So she might have been playing in the yard if she was in the yard. If not, she was probably in the back in the pool or with somebody because we wouldn't let her go be in the pool by herself.
- [23:34]
A
Gotcha. So Stevie was old enough he could play by himself outside, usually right in front or right in back. But your daughter was young enough that if she were outside, she would be with one of you or she could she also be with Stevie where she would.
- [23:47]
D
Most of the time it was with one of us. Yeah. And Stevie. There was times I'm sure that she was with Stevie, but now they wasn't outside of our view. I didn't. I didn't do that.
- [23:58]
C
This particular day, when you got home after Stevie, did you ever. With your early morning hours and trying to get into work early so that you could leave and have more of an afternoon, did you ever get home before Stevie?
- [24:12]
D
Home from work before Stevie?
- [24:14]
C
Yeah. Or was he always home from school before you?
- [24:18]
D
Well, you know, I'm sure there was days that I came home before. Yeah, I'm gonna say there probably was.
- [24:24]
C
So it sounds like what was different about this day is that he was allowed to go off on his bicycle and you weren't there to say, just stay in front of the house. He was allowed to go beyond those boundaries this particular day.
- [24:42]
D
Right. And his mother gave him permission to. Yes, that's true. And I've seen Pam beat herself up so much with that, it breaks your heart. You know, try to console her. Is not your fault. She blamed herself for years, you know, I shouldn't have let him go. Right. Well, you can't do that. I mean, you can do that, but it's not good to do that. But, you know, just let people just do what they do.
- [25:12]
A
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- [29:21]
D
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [29:24]
A
Could you be more specific when it's cravenient?
- [29:27]
D
Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter available right down the street at a.m. p.m. Or a savory.
- [29:32]
A
Breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. p.m.
- [29:35]
D
I'm seeing a pattern here. Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [29:38]
A
Crave, which is anything from AM pm.
- [29:40]
D
What more could you want? Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient.
- [29:45]
B
That's cravenience AM PM Too much good stuff. When that day did you first realize there was something wrong?
- [29:57]
D
I would say close to dark because, you know, you would think in the neighborhood that we lived in, it was 28,000 people in West Memphis at the time. And you think you would ride around and find them. Now after David and I rode around, couldn't find them, Pam and I rode around, couldn't find them. Pam called her dad, mom. They come down, you know. But before they came down, you start to get a little worried. We're walking the streets, driving the streets and just couldn't find them in our neighborhood.
- [30:31]
A
And kind of bringing back to that very moment when you said starts getting dark, you're worried. Can you walk us through exactly how that happened? Who were you with and did you say anything as you began to kind of realize maybe something was wrong?
- [30:43]
D
Well, we went to every little convenience store. We'd go up, knock on people's houses. There was people outside. David and I was walking around, driving around. We went out of our neighborhood just in case they was riding somewhere else, you know, and Got out and walked different places, and we just never could find them. And then I had to go pick Pam up, and so I had to let her know. And there's always been a big issue that Pam has always said, he didn't let me know Stevie was missing. Well, at the time, I didn't know Stevie was missing. I just know we never run across them. But people never remember the part that Pam was one who told him, you can go ride your bicycle. He wasn't at home when she went to work. They never talk about that. They always talk about how Terry never told him, you know, he couldn't find them until I picked her up at the restaurant.
- [31:40]
C
Well, let's go back to that, because I think that's a good point you're making. I mean, it's gotta be like, okay, he's missing, but when did you absolutely know something horrible was wrong? Like, I mean, I would think you're probably starting to get concerned. You've possibly talked to some other parents and you realize Stevie's with a couple of his friends. But it's like panic probably isn't setting in with you at this point and think, they're probably still out. They're probably okay. I think you make a very good point. Is there a point in that evening where you just absolutely knew it hit you something was terribly wrong, or maybe it didn't yet. Maybe you're still thinking that nothing's wrong yet, and they're just, you know, out there goofing off.
- [32:29]
D
Well, let me say this. There was a time when I go to the Morse home and walk up and talking with Dana Moore. And Todd comes walking across the street. He lived across the street from them. Introduces often ask if we seen Christopher. We said, so I think right then when we kind of put it together, that they. All three of them are together. Okay, well, they, him and Mark and Melissa, his wife, go riding around looking and waiting. Me and Amanda keep riding around looking, and me and David keep riding around looking. And then back in the front yard at the Morse home, when Mark come over, he said he was going to call the police and file a missing report. So Dana said she was going to call the police also. Well, I'm a mile, roughly a mile or a little bit less from my home. We don't have cell phones in 93. So I asked Dana, I said, would you let the police know that Stevie's with them also? And she said she would. Now, I hope she did. I don't know. I didn't go in to follow her. But I know when I went to pick Pam up, roughly around 9, maybe little after maybe, that we called the police from there and they showed up and did a police report and it was already dark. So yeah, any parents would start to get a little concerned. And we were, we were parents, you know, we was concerned. We're having problems, we can't find them. That's a concern to any parents, especially 8 year olds after dark.
- [34:02]
C
So I don't want to pin you down on a time because this goes back 32 years. But if you can remember when you were over at the moors and Mark comes over, do you remember if it was still light? Was it dark, was it dusk? Like, what do you recall about the time frame in terms of how light it was out?
- [34:24]
D
Well, let me say this about times I know beat up some.
- [34:29]
C
I'm not going to beat you up. That's why I'm asking about how light it was.
- [34:33]
D
Well, I honestly don't remember. But it seemed like it wasn't dark yet. Dusk maybe, but you know, it wasn't dark.
- [34:41]
C
Okay. And that's why I didn't ask you about a specific time. I was just trying to get the sense. So it's dusk and you've got now a group of parents who are worried, or at least starting to worry, like they're not coming back. And so what I think is interesting is you have three parents that are now concerned. You have three boys that are out there and knowing that probably their parents at this point are going to be concerned that they're not home. So I just kind of wondering about the time frame. Are they already out there hurt or unable to leave where they're located at that point. So that was why I asked that question. Just trying to say at this point something is wrong with them, something is wrong. But as parents, you don't know yet. You're starting to get worried. But all three boys probably knew they should have been home by this point if all their parents are now concerned. Right. Would you agree with that, Terri?
- [35:38]
D
Yeah. Cause we didn't know. And you just don't know. You don't know what to expect. You don't know what you're doing. You're just out there looking for three boys.
- [35:47]
B
So you said you walked over to Dana's house. What led you to do that?
- [35:51]
D
Well, that was kind of the rendezvous place. It wasn't the first time we had been at the Morris house, you know, that evening. Because on my way to work, I drive by, leave our home, I tell Pam, I said, we'll drive by the Morse and see if we see him over there. And we did. And when I dropped her off, I said, I'll drive back by the Morse, you know, and see if we can see them over there. And I did. And we didn't film, you know, so it just seemed like that was. The other two parents was right across the street from each other. He was with Michael. And it seemed like, you know, you would think they would go back to the. Michael's house. That's where we had, you know, kept going every once in a while just to see.
- [36:30]
B
At any point that night, did Dana come to your house?
- [36:33]
D
He did. Yeah. There was a.
- [36:35]
B
Do you remember when that was?
- [36:37]
D
Earlier, it was still daylight, you know, but she come over to our house just to see if he was over there, see if Michael was there. I ain't gonna say what time. I don't do that.
- [36:47]
C
But it was before you went back over to their house.
- [36:51]
D
It was probably. Yeah, just guessing. I'm sure it was in all them time frames. But there was a time I remember her showing up, her and Don, her daughter, at our house.
- [37:03]
A
And did they come in or did they just stay outside and ask if the boys had come back?
- [37:07]
D
Now? We stayed on in the driveway. Yep. They didn't come in.
- [37:11]
A
And, Terry, I may have misheard you, but earlier you said about going over to Dana's, it wasn't the first time. Do you mean it wasn't the first time? This day, May 5, wasn't the first time that it wasn't clear where the boys were or just for that day.
- [37:25]
D
That's the first time I'd ever been to their house, was May 5th. I drove past, like. Like I said, I drove past to see if we could see them in the area and then dropped Pam off. I drove back past her home.
- [37:39]
A
Oh, I got you. I'm sorry. I misheard. So that was your first time to be at Dana's house. Okay. Okay.
- [37:45]
C
And do you remember when Dana and Dawn had stopped by and then when you went over to Dana's, was Amanda with you? Yeah, she was with you. And I've heard that you at some point were over at David's house as well.
- [38:01]
D
I did go to David's house, you know, I didn't. First of all, we didn't know anybody in West Memphis.
- [38:07]
C
I was going to ask you that. Who were your friends there? You know, who were your friends? And I guess David was one of them.
- [38:14]
D
Well, David and there was another lady that Pam run across in one of the stores. Over there. But yeah, David was probably the only man friend, I guess you could say it like that, that would go, I give him a guitar. I love to play guitars. And so I give him a guitar one time and went over and showed him a key or two. And, you know, we tried to figure out some more keys so we could play it. But yeah, David was with me on and off during the night, because a matter of fact, at the time, David, he was a steel worker, but at the time of this, steel industry was slow and he was out of work. And I got him a job at the ice cream company that I worked at, trying to help him out.
- [38:59]
C
And when you went over to his house, was that before or after you saw Dana, or was it in between? Do you remember that? The sequence of when you saw people?
- [39:12]
D
No, I'm not going to try that.
- [39:14]
C
Okay, I don't blame you.
- [39:17]
D
Yeah, I don't want people picking on me. And they do that anyway. Any little thing I say, they pick it apart. And so I try not to put myself there.
- [39:28]
C
Okay, I understood. And so you just would generally describe David as one of your friends that were there, and you didn't have a lot of other friends in West Memphis at the time.
- [39:40]
D
Right. David was a good man. He had a family over there and he was working, taking care of his family. And that's only thing I was doing, take care of my family.
- [39:50]
C
Did you go over to his house regularly after work to visit him with the kids? Was that something you did? No. So this was not something you did all the time?
- [40:01]
D
Right? Right. No, I didn't go hang out at nobody's house. I had a pool in my backyard.
- [40:08]
C
You had a pool?
- [40:09]
D
I had a 30th.
- [40:11]
C
You love that pool.
- [40:12]
D
I promise you, we all did.
- [40:14]
C
I don't blame you. You need a pool in Arkansas, that's for sure.
- [40:18]
D
It was hot.
- [40:19]
C
So Amanda was with you the whole time you're looking for Stevie, and when you're. Oh, she was not.
- [40:28]
D
Not the whole time. She was with me at the beginning until I went over to David's, if David would go help me. And I left Amanda over with David's wife and her daughter, and me and David went riding around looking, see if we could find some three boys or two boys.
- [40:46]
C
And during that time, did you guys go over to the area of Robin Hood Hills?
- [40:53]
D
Well, probably not at that moment, because we didn't know nothing about Robin Hood Hills, and. But we run across an older young man that told us he seen everybody, that we were stopping. We'd ask if you've seen some boys on bicycles. Some would say yes, some would say no. One man told us, yeah, they went over in them woods, and he called him Robin Hood or something like that. So we didn't know. So there was times all during the night, all during the night that David and I was together. David was. Was with Pam's dad and mom. David was with us, all of us together with. And Mark Byers and Melissa. You know, there was times we were just scattered, walking, driving all night long. We didn't go down to the police station as a group and ask them, you know, so surely, you know, people has always beat me up over an alibi. Surely there was police footage because they had cameras everywhere at that police station. So surely there's footage of all of us together. There was one time that the three men went together. Me, David and Ham's dad went down there, you know, so at the police station. So, you know, I'm sure there's footage of that.
- [42:09]
C
And over at Robin Hood Hills. Now, I've never been there, but I've seen the pictures of the area. And if you were to drive over there, would there be a place to park? If you wanted to park there and walk into the woods, Was there a parking area?
- [42:25]
D
Well, parking area because it was in the middle of a field. There was fields around it on the front side toward the highway, interstate, and on the back side of it there was, you know, homes. There was a street on one side of the street was homes, and then there's some apartments that was on one end of it. But seemed like there was a place that I guess the farmers would pull into when they would come and bail it for hay, because I remember seeing them bail it for hay over the years, and there was a place that they could pull up into. So to me, that's your parking lot. Just a little gravel road or muddy road, especially if it was wet.
- [43:10]
C
And from that area, if you're standing up there and this goes back to that time period, so you may not remember, if you were looking, from what I can tell, you'd have to go kind of downhill a little bit to that big pipe.
- [43:23]
D
Right?
- [43:23]
C
Is there? Okay. And could you see that pipe from up. Like, if you were to park up there and would you be able to see the pipe from that point?
- [43:32]
D
No, I think no, because it was grown up so much, you had to follow a little path down to the pipe.
- [43:39]
C
Okay. And if the boys, and bear with me here, if the boys were going to be going into the woods, And I know that you didn't know at the time that if they played in those woods, but what I want you to do is just speculate like what you think they would do. Where would they park their bikes if they were going to cross that pipe and go play further into the woods, Would they take their bikes down to the pipe? Would they leave them up on the road area? Where do you think is the best place that they would have parked their bikes?
- [44:13]
D
Well, I don't know. I don't know where they parked them at. I know where they found them at, but I don't know where they would park them at. Well, it was just grown up like you wouldn't believe.
- [44:23]
C
And where'd they find them that you remember?
- [44:26]
D
Right there to the pipe in water. There was a 10 mile bio that run through west Memphis and it went right under that pipe. And I believe they found the bicycles, couple of them right there.
- [44:38]
C
And they were in the water in the bayou.
- [44:40]
D
They were, they were.
- [44:41]
C
So do you know if they were completely submerged or how they found them? Could they see them under the water when they looked or do you not know?
- [44:49]
D
Well, I don't know because it was dark when we was out in the woods looking, so I don't think we could see them. But the daylight come along is probably how they found them. I'm not sure.
- [45:01]
C
So whoever did this to them took the bikes and threw them in the bayou? Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out like if someone were to come along and they're like up on that road and the boys are in the woods and they've, you know, obviously didn't take their bikes across the pipe. I don't think. I think that would be difficult if this person or anyone could see that their bikes parked somewhere or would they have been hidden? I just wonder how easy would it have been for them just to take their bikes down close to the pipe, leave them right there at the pipe, cross the pipe, go into the woods and come back out. Or would they have left them up higher? Because I don't know what the terrain would be be like exactly or how hard that would be.
- [45:45]
D
Well, I don't need it. I don't know. I know where the train was, you know, but I don't know where they parked them, how they got in the water, who put them in the water, but I think that's where they found them, in the water.
- [45:58]
C
Do you remember if any witnesses said they just saw the bikes without the kids?
- [46:04]
D
I don't remember hearing nothing like it.
- [46:07]
C
Okay.
- [46:07]
B
A couple questions backing up just a little bit. So between when you dropped Pam off at work and then when you went to go pick her up, did you basically always either have Amanda or have David with you? Was there any period of time when it was just you?
- [46:23]
D
Yeah, I don't. I don't believe there was. I had Amanda, and when I took her over to David, I had David with me. So. And then I take David back later on to pick Amanda up so I could go pick up Pam. So I don't believe I was by myself at any that evening between the hours of five and nine. That's when her work began. So I don't think I was by myself.
- [46:46]
B
And then you've mentioned sort of. I know at various times, eventually people started migrating down towards what we now know as Robin Hood Hills. Do you remember the first time you were in the area of the woods near the pipe that day?
- [47:02]
D
Well, seemed like I said earlier that some old young man told us that he seen boys going in there in the woods on bicycles heading that way. And seemed like that was about the time that Wheel of Fortune was on because he said he had to hurry up, get in and watch Wheel of Fortune. So it was probably shortly after that. And I run across Christopher's brother, and he's got a brother, older brother, that night that he was with one or two of his friends. They was riding bicycles and they were out also looking for the boys. And we had run across him. We asked, you know, I'm standing there talking to his brother and I asked him, you know, you seen the boys? He said no, but that he was gonna go check the manhole down by the pipe, close to the bio. And I didn't know what he's talking about. I said, all right, just be careful. And he took off.
- [47:58]
B
You don't happen to remember when Wheel of Fortune came on, do you?
- [48:00]
D
5:30.
- [48:04]
C
I made a note to look.
- [48:08]
D
I even think 6:30. I'm not sure, but I remember that old boy saying that.
- [48:12]
B
Back to your manhole. Did people play in the manholes or something? Did you ever get any clarity on why someone would look in the manhole?
- [48:19]
D
No, that wasn't my department. That belonged to the city. I don't know. I don't see it. I don't think no one could get the top off of it because it was big old metal top. We did see it later on, but no, it was big concrete manhole with a big metal top on it.
- [48:35]
C
Do you remember where you were when you learned that the boys bodies had.
- [48:41]
D
Been found May the sixth. We were roughly in the area of the school. We seen Weaver Elementary. That's where the boys went to school at. We seen them vehicles parked on there. So we pulled in and asked them, you know, if they had seen some boys. And that right then is where they told us that they found some boys in Robin Hood.
- [49:04]
C
Was that just regular people or were they police officers?
- [49:08]
D
No, it was just young folks hanging around the school. But we just stopped and just to see out of curiosity, and that's what we found out.
- [49:17]
C
Did they have any kind of details or other than they just found the kids?
- [49:21]
D
Right, that. No details. Just said that, you know, we heard that they found some boys in Robin Hood.
- [49:28]
C
And then what'd you do?
- [49:30]
D
Well, we went to where Robin Hood was, and it was, you know, we went to Robin Hood, but it was down by the May Fair Apartments or Mayfield Apartments, whatever it was called is where there was a parking. I guess there was a parking lot for the apartments. But we pull in there, and all you could see is there was some people there. You know, a few people there, quite a few. And then all you could see is crime scene tape, which wasn't really impressive. And we get out, and me and Pam started to walk up there. She just. I guess her legs went out from under and she fell and was crying, yelling, and it was heartbreaking, you know, to see that part of it. So I went ahead and we got her back to where she could sit down by the vehicle, her car. Then we. I walk on up to the crime scene tape. And that's where our first time I met Gary Gitchell. He was standing at the tape, and that's when I asked him. I said, what's going on here? He said, who are you? And I told him, and I said, we've been looking for our boys all night. He said, well, looks like we've had a homicide. I said, what'd you say? And he said, looked like they've been murdered. And that's how we found out.
- [50:44]
C
How did you react?
- [50:45]
D
There's no react. You just probably automatically go into shock that quick, you know, I think I sat down on the ground, couldn't believe what he just told me. And he gave me something to drink and, you know, but I don't think he had time to read. You just don't know, really trying to get what he said.
- [51:05]
C
Did they tell you anything else other than that at that time? Did they give you any details?
- [51:11]
D
No details, and probably it's not the time to get details. I'M not even sure they knew what they was. Details, you know, they just. That's just what he told me. It was definitely heartbreaking because I had to make my way back to the car and tell Pam, of which I think everybody knew anyway because the crime scene tape, that something wasn't right. So I tell Pam and this. That's one of the hardest things you can do, is go back and tell your wife something like that.
- [51:43]
C
How you do that, I don't know. I cannot imagine what you dealt with.
- [51:48]
D
Thank you. Can't imagine it either.
- [51:51]
C
How did you cope in like the days and the weeks after? How did you cope?
- [51:58]
D
I don't think you had coping time, you know, you had media chasing you around, wanting no, you know, and one good thing about the media, every one of them know how you feel, how you feel, how you feel. And then. Yeah, how do you feel? You're numb, you're in shock, you know, and still you dodging them, they chasing you all over the place and all out there making stories and, you know, and you're seeing all this stuff on the TVs. My dad and mom come down from up here in the mountains and dad told me, he said, you know, he said, I first heard about this on the radio and he said they was talking about mutilation and everything like that, you know, and so why then here they come. My leg came down quick. So I don't think you had time to feel or know anything, you know, you just threw out there in La la land and all this stuff coming across the airways and we try not to watch the tv, but how could you? You know, the police was doing their investigating, so they don't talk to you during that period and you just waiting to see what's next, I guess.
- [53:09]
C
So nobody talked with you and Pam and you just had to hear stuff on the news? Is that what I'm understanding?
- [53:17]
D
Some of the details you would hear on the news, yeah, the police had talked to us and asked questions about different things, but yeah, the police did talk to you, but they wouldn't go into details about what had happened from the airwaves.
- [53:35]
C
What were you hearing on the news and the radio? What kinds of things?
- [53:40]
D
All kind of things. Devil worship and, you know, satanic rituals and, you know, three murdered kids mutilated, you know, and castorated, you know, everything. I mean, it just unbelievable what we were hearing.
- [53:54]
C
Were you hearing this just like right away, right after the bodies were found or in the days or weeks after? Was it just kind of constant?
- [54:03]
D
Oh, it Was constant. And it was days now, weeks, the medium. And they had them a story. I guess that's where they look at it. But yeah, it was days.
- [54:15]
C
And you were saying that the media was chasing you. Did you stay home or did you have a place to go to get away from them? Or did you just stay home or go to family's house? What did you do?
- [54:29]
D
Well, we didn't have no family in West Memphis. I went to work trying to find some relief and, you know, and. But that was hard. And my boss gave me, he said, terry, you take all the time off you need and just deal with this, whatever you got to do, just know that we're here and if you need us. But no, you, you stayed in your house. If you didn't want to go outside and get on camera, stay in your house.
- [54:56]
C
And you didn't go anywhere. You just. I mean, you said you tried to work for a little bit, but when your boss gave you some time off, you just stayed home and just tried to hideout from media there.
- [55:08]
D
Well, we was also investigating. I mean, that might not sound funny, but it was really not knowing what was going on with the police. Now here we are out here trying to figure out what happened, who did it, and all kinds of things, you know, and that's just the world that you're tossed into or drug into, you might say.
- [55:29]
C
And when you say you were trying to investigate, what were you doing? Were you trying to talk to people and ask questions? What were you doing?
- [55:36]
D
Oh, yeah, well, there's one time we went to a church in West Memphis, and for some reason, Pam had this one church in her sights, and she just wasn't going to let off this church for nothing. She walked around by one of the buildings that had a light on, the carpet was missing and they was putting new carpet down. But that day they done tore the carpet up, waiting on the new carpet to come in. That's the room, that's the carpet. But I mean, that's just how the mind acts, treats people, you know, so you just ride around, look at everything. Everything is a suspect, even in your eyes, the parents.
- [56:12]
B
Did you ever consider getting out of West Memphis for a little while?
- [56:15]
D
Well, yeah, we did. We moved actually, just a few weeks after it happened, up to where Pam's family lived in Bravo. We didn't move and, you know, there was just so much happening that had to put some distance between me and the family and get away. And I went up to be around my family, you know, and which did me a lot of Good, because every family deals with things different. And then there was times I would go back and hopefully it was getting better and it wasn't.
- [56:45]
C
In what way? What do you mean? In what way were you hoping it would get better? Like, what was the worst part?
- [56:53]
D
Living with Pam. Yeah, because, you know, and I understand it was her son, my son, our son, my stepson, you know, and all this, but still she was just devastated. I mean, she couldn't think straight. She was hurt so bad, and her family was so protective of her. And, you know, it's like they didn't want you around because they was trying to help her deal with her, come to grips with it and deal with it, you know, so there was no bad people in the family. It was just over protected, you know, that when I guess when push comes to shove, you see what people's made of. And they loved her death. They loved me to death, but there was a time when they would just put me on the sidewalk and just show her all the love they could. They didn't care about anybody else's love. You know, they was just all trying to come to grips with what had happened. I was telling you, I couldn't believe it either.
- [57:53]
C
Well, I was just going to ask, were you able to mourn at all? Did you? And I don't mean that. Yeah, and I don't mean that as a judgmental question. Just curious. Based on everything that's was going on. It does sound to me like you didn't have a chance to mourn yourself for 12 years.
- [58:12]
D
I lived with her after this happened, and that was the worst 12 years of my life. Seriously. Because it was investigating still 12 years later. And I'm not sure why the denial was there. People just, I mean, the family just didn't. Wouldn't believe anything the police said. Didn't want to sit through the trials, even though we did, just didn't want to accept it. They did accept it at first, but, you know, when the filmmakers and the money guys and the defense investigators showed up with all of their stuff, when they started changing minds.
- [58:49]
C
Well, let's go back to you. And how did you feel when Damien, Jason and Jesse were arrested?
- [58:57]
D
Well, we get a call, come to court the next day, and you'll get to see who's being charged for this. So we heard it on the media, the police called us and asked us to come the next day, and that's when we went. And, you know, you look at them and you just see three teenagers and you don't know what to Think about them. But I was just like any other dad. If I'd have got my hands on any one of them, I'd have just flipped the stoop plum out here and. Not bad in an eye.
- [59:26]
C
Were you relieved? Were you?
- [59:29]
D
No. No.
- [59:31]
C
None.
- [59:32]
D
No, you're dealing with anger. You're dealing with different steps of the grief process. And no, you're not released. No, ma'. Am. There's more anger there. Any one of us would have loved to got our hands on them boys at the time.
- [59:48]
C
And if they hadn't have been arrested, or let's say no one was ever arrested, what would justice look like to you?
- [59:56]
D
Well, that would be a nightmare. I don't know what it would be. You know, I can imagine that.
- [60:02]
C
Are you at peace with knowing that they got the right people for this? Right offenders?
- [60:09]
D
Always been after the trials. I've always been okay with you. Okay, it looks like you arrested the right people and you presented your case to the juries. Two juries. And the juries believed you enough that they come up with three convictions and the boys went and started serving their life sentence. I was okay with that. But that doesn't make it okay. While they're off to their new parade, we're starting to deal with reality. Our kids is dead, our kids are never coming home and we're some pissed off parents. Excuse my French, but yeah, we're still ticked off like you wouldn't believe.
- [60:55]
A
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- [66:09]
B
So the convictions didn't really provide any that closure word people like to throw around.
- [66:14]
D
That didn't.
- [66:15]
B
Then it happened when you got the.
- [66:16]
D
Guilty verdicts, right now it's there and you're sitting there and you're going through all this, but it doesn't give you any satisfaction. None at all. But now you, you're looking at parents that would probably do anything to get their hands on them, even going prison. That was going through your mind, how can I get inside there to get to them? You know, that's just the way it was.
- [66:41]
A
Terry, you said that, you know, you guys didn't want to sit through the trials, but of course you did. And I know you had said that you heard a lot of what happened to the boys from the media rather than from law enforcement. Were there things that you learned during the trial about what had happened that you didn't know from either the investigators or from media reports?
- [67:01]
D
Well, there was a time after they come back from the state medical examiner's office, they sent Stevie up to Blytheville to, I think still Missouri is where he went to the funeral home that three of us men went down to look at him. And it was unbelievable what we walked in and seen. This is part you never heard on the media and we chose not to look at the pictures in the trials, because they had a lot of pictures there. So we would get up and walk out. But when it actually came to the funeral home is where three men went down and looked at it was just unbelievable.
- [67:44]
A
I'm so sorry you had to see him like that.
- [67:47]
C
Are you okay?
- [67:48]
D
Yeah, I am okay.
- [67:50]
A
Terry. We're all. All of us are parents as well, and I can't imagine what it must feel to have cameras stuck in your face for so many years and people just barraging you with questions about a very, very intense time of your life. You know, you sat through these trials, and when the verdict came back that they were guilty, having seen all the evidence, what were your thoughts? Did you think, I'm glad that the jury came to the right decision, or did you have any other thoughts as you heard the verdict read regarding their guilt?
- [68:20]
D
Well, I don't know if you would remember any of the thoughts that you had right then, other. And you might feel some relief of knowing that this part of this chapter is over with. So their new journey begins behind bars, and our new journey begins dealing with grief. Because I'm not sure at what point grief sets in, but I know from the beginning you deal with shock, and we did that, and we probably were still in shock during the trials. So there's a time when grief takes its toll and goes through the stages, you know, and it's up to each individual to deal with that. Accept, not accept, deny, whatever. You know, deal with the anger. I had a bad issue with the anger over this, you know, I. It was consuming me, and it was defining me as. To be someone I'm not, you know? You know, I joined Grief Share Places. I've been kicked out of Grief share places because people didn't know, you know, and people just are people. They think the worst. They just. So I was asked to not come back to some great shares and, you know, which fuels the fire, you know, so you're mad about several different things until I finally seen, you know, I can't do this no more. I made my way to a church. I made my way to an altar, and I said, good Lord. Here, can't do this no more. I left my anger at that altar. I got up and you know what? That's the best thing I ever done. I was able to start living after that. Before that. It wasn't pretty, the way where you had to deal with this.
- [70:06]
C
When you talk about anger, what do you think your anger was directed at specifically? Do you have any sense of that?
- [70:14]
D
Three teenagers have you ever, I mean.
- [70:18]
C
You talked about how at first Pam and her family believed that they had the right people, but then they started to maybe second guess that. Have you ever doubted that Damien, Jason and Jesse killed Stevie, Michael and Christopher?
- [70:39]
D
I never have doubted that, especially since the trial. And if I would have let the same people who tried to get to me that got Pam and offered her money, told her, you can get money if you help us get out of prison, same people that went to more buyers and I would probably have thought different, but they tried me and really put me through it and I still has never changed my mind, never even doubted the police departments. I don't know if you have that article that the police put it in the paper, but I still have the article from 2007 where they, the police puts out there, Terry wasn't a suspect in 1993 and he's still not a suspect in 2007 as Ron Lacks and his PR firm and local media and the national media started throwing my name out there amongst the wolves, you know, so. And I mean, I'm still not a suspect today in the police's eyes, only in the defenses and all this stuff that they've started.
- [71:45]
B
And Terry, I'm going to ask you this question. I don't want it to insult you, but people are going to want me to ask and I feel like you should have the opportunity to answer it. Did you have anything to do with this?
- [71:53]
D
No, sir, I did not.
- [71:55]
B
So it's been 30 some years. Is there anything that we haven't asked or is there anything that you want to say that you've been waiting all this time to say? And this is your opportunity to speak to the public, to speak to critics or doubters or whoever. Is there anything you want to say to those people?
- [72:10]
D
Well, I would like to say something to the lawmakers, put some stuff in writing, put it on the books where people can't just take victims, families and rake them over the coals like they do some of us. But again, saying that you have to look at some of these other cases where it is the victim's families that is the perpetrators. I've seen so many shows on tv I quit watching them because I get mad because it's that person that give me a bad name. And I've talked to some lawmakers and they say, well, when you figure out how to word this, let us know because we've been trying to figure out how to word it also to make it legit, you know, make it a law, you know, and at the same time, when they're trying to do all this wording, you have other people that commits crimes and it is the family members. No, but there are some of us out here that gets beat up because of them, you know, so you're looking at one. And I hate to say that, but I've been beat up. So I got an armor suit that I may start wearing because you only take so much, you know, you have to do something. And to all the critics. Yeah. And there's a bunch of them out here. Pick on someone else. My back's hurt. I've been stabbed in the back so many times, you know, and I'm just trying to keep my head up and the water's deep and people's trying to pull you right under that water. I'm trying to keep my head up and do what's right out here and help someone in their journey. And I write songs. I have a YouTube account and I write songs, play music, put it on there, which is some kind of therapeutic for me. And hearts are broken, lives are changed. But never give up the faith or the hope and believe. And I told this a lot of that. Sometimes you have to believe in something. And I've always believed in the case work, courts and the police work that I've spit through and watched and you know, and the trials and. And just because George comes along and says something don't mean I'm gonna blame George, because George is not a place, he's just someone out here speculating. So I believe when I seen in the trials, and we all did at the time, some of us went on the Geraldo show in the 90s and they was just as big as believer back then as they was in the trials. And then they changed hell. But I don't flip like it, you know, I believe it is what it is. And I'm glad to say that I've never doubted the work of the police department.
- [74:49]
B
Well, Terry, you've been incredibly generous with your time. We've kept you for quite a while. Before we sign off, Alice, Julia, any last thoughts, any last questions that you guys had?
- [75:00]
A
Terry, truly, thank you for so much time. I know we faced some technical difficulties and you kept coming back to talk with us and we truly appreciate you sharing that. What you say about victims and victims families, it's absolutely true. Especially with the rise. I don't even know that it's the rise. It's an age old fascination with really the tragedies of people's lives. And so thank you for Being a voice to that, but also recognizing that each investigation is unique in its own. You know, you can't just write off entire classes of people. But I appreciate you keeping your head up and speaking to us about this and also recognizing that you're speaking to us. You know, 32 years later and a lot of who can remember the time that I ate dinner yesterday, much less 32 years ago. So I recognize that we were asking you questions that truly there may not be answers to anymore, but I appreciate you entertaining those questions for us and giving us your time on that. So I just want to say thank you. Thank you for that.
- [75:56]
C
Yeah. And I want to thank Brett and Alice first for allowing me to be here for this conversation with you, Terry. And really, the only thing I have to say is I just wish you peace for the rest of your life.
- [76:09]
D
Thank you. Thank you, Miss Alice. Thank you, Miss Julie.
- [76:12]
B
All right, well, thank you, sir, for joining us and I hope everyone enjoyed this conversation. We will be back next week, but until then, I'm Brett.
- [76:23]
A
And I'm Alice.
- [76:24]
B
And this is the prosecutors who is her nephew and is someone that she thinks might be involved in the crime. You okay? What went wrong? Everything was going so well. Alice looks very angry. Either Jason or Domini. I'm sure they both own jeans with tears in them. How do we lose her again?
- [78:32]
D
I don't know. Why?
- [78:33]
B
Why are we cursed like this?
- [78:36]
D
I am not cursed.
- [78:37]
B
Just me and the Hollingsworth family tree here.
- [79:24]
A
Hi, I'm Jesse Pray. And I'm Andy. Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson. Wear family ties Masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.