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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Jessi Pere. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
- [00:44]
B
I'm Brett. And I'm Alice and we are the prosecut. Today on the Prosecutors, we conclude our look at the case of Glenn and Bessie Hyde. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my Ripper co host, Alice.
- [01:47]
A
Ripping through podcast scripts, but not ripping through tides. That's not for me. There you go. We are back. We are back here with this. Well, okay, so last week we live in a very small town, but for some reason we have this like massive whitewater facility where the Olympic trials like take place. We are the middle of nowhere, y'. All. Like we barely hit six digits of population up in here. And so I went there and it's really fun though because they show you how they pulled all the blocks to make the rapids for these rip currents. And all I can say is I kept thinking about this case and how terrifying it is because the way it's like a massive Lego block, right? Because we're not actually on a river. This is just a man made trail where you create these riptides and they're like. And then you add this and it becomes this category riptide. And I'm thinking I can't even do if it were a lazy river, much less what Glenn and Bessie are doing with a hundred year ago handmade boat.
- [02:44]
B
This case kind of reminds me of. Was it Ben Daniels? Was it Daniels? Was that his name who did the cave diving? Yeah. Yes. Like I can't imagine doing what they're doing. If I went out to Colorado today, I probably would be game for some whitewater rafting. I mean, I guess not Colorado, it's in Arizona on the Colorado. But we've got, you know, we have modern boats and everything. I mean, they're on this like wooden thing. They don't even have life jackets. I just can't even imagine. But they did it like a cargo.
- [03:14]
A
Ship basically was what they're trying to maneuver is this massive cargo ship and they are ripping through These tides. All I can imagine is like boats smashing against rocks and breaking into smithereens. And that's not what's happened so far.
- [03:27]
B
Well, you know, it happened a little bit. You know, you're not, you're not entirely over exaggerating because they would have these collisions with the rocks and they would have to sort of drag the boat over to the beach and do repairs on it. So they're constantly repairing this boat from that kind of damage. But yeah, they're terrified that that's exactly what's going to happen. That one day they're going to lose control and it is going to smash and just be destroyed and kill them all. And we're gonna see that didn't happen. But we do know that Glenn and Bessie Hyde disappeared in the last episode where we discussed this. We reached that point where they sort of turn a bend in the river and wave bye to the last person to see them. And then they disappear, never to be seen again. And so that happens in mid November. So November 18th is the last time they're seen. Fast forward to December 9th, 1928. So Glenn had told his father, R.C. hyde, to expect a telegraph from him from needles, California on December 9, 1928, which would have been Glenn's 30th birthday. And this may remind you of Dyatlov Pass. It's a similar thing. You know, the campers or the hikers, they're up there, they're hiking, they have no contact with anyone. So it takes a while for anyone to even know there's a problem because no one expects to hear from them. And we're looking at almost an entire month, nine days short of an entire month, where they're not heard from, but no one expected to hear from them. But the ninth comes and the ninth goes, and they don't receive this telegram. And the plan had been for Glenn and Bessie to take the train from Needles to. To Los Angeles, and they would meet his father and sister there and sort of celebrate what would have been an incredible accomplishment. And I don't think it is a coincidence that they wanted to go to Los Angeles because they wanted to go somewhere they could publicize this incredible accomplishment. Remember, they were expecting that by December 9th, Bessie would be the first woman to have ever completed this, that both of them would have done this faster than anyone else. This was going to be national news. And it became national news, but not for the reason they had hoped. Now, Glenn had told his dad that December 11th was the last possible date they would arrive in Needles. So RC Waited those two additional days, hoping to hear from his son. But he heard nothing.
- [05:57]
A
So on December 12, 1928, after failing to receive a telegram the previous day, his dad, R.C. boarded a train to Las Vegas to begin a search. He began a speedy and thorough search along the route for the newlyweds. He organized three river searches, dozens of land searches, and was working to set up an air search. Despite his efforts, he initially found absolutely no sign of them. By December 16, he began reaching out to law enforcement and government officials to aid in the search, and this included the Secretary of War. He had also enlisted the help of Emory Kolb to assist in the river search, since he had expertise in this area. I just think that's pretty amazing that he did this search for four days without really law enforcement. Like, I would also do everything I could for my child if they were missing. But this is an incredible feat because think about how massive this path is, right? We're talking about a month of distance that they could have traveled and not knowing where they are on this path.
- [06:58]
B
And remember, R.C. he's an elderly man. He's pretty old, and it's not like it is now. I mean, frankly, the Grand Canyon is pretty dangerous even today. It's pretty remote even today. But at the time, getting out there was very difficult. And he just immediately goes to it. He's the dad you want if something happens, because he absolutely is a hero of this story. And just how he's able to encourage all these people. And the locals around the Grand Canyon area and the Colorado river were just so inspired by him that they went above and beyond. They felt the urgency that he had, and they really looked up to him. And so Emory Kolb, now he's out. I think he's either in Los Angeles or he's in Phoenix. One of the two, like, his brother's in one of those cities, and he's in the other one. And they had left the area recently to go do other things. You know, I mean, they have their own pursuits. And Emory finds out, he gets a telegram from R.C. saying, Hey, I know you ran into my son. At some point, he's disappeared. And so Emory Kolb, who knows the river very well and had met Glenn and Bessie, he immediately turns around, gets on a train, and heads back to the Grand Canyon so that he can help. And as Alice said, R.C. had some connections. I believe his uncle had been a congressman at one point. So he knew some people. And one of those people he knew was the secretary of war. And he's saying, look, those Newfangled airplanes. We need to get one of those up and fly it up and down the Colorado River. And very quickly, that's what they're doing. They're bringing these sort of newer airplanes, military airplanes, to fly the length of the river so that they can see if they see anything. On December 19, 1928, an air inspection of the river was performed. And one of the search planes spots a scow adrift around mile 237. And you know, they're going pretty low in the canyon. When you read about this in Sunk Without a Sound, they talk about how thrilling this was for anyone on the plane. Because you're flying in this sort of not very reliable, very new airplane. The canyon walls are like, know beside you. There are these updrafts and change in winds. And they're having to get really close to be able to see anything. And they see this scout. Now, there doesn't appear to be anyone in the boat, but the boat also looks fine from their view. So they can't tell that it has any damage. They can't tell that it has anything out of place. And so it sort of circles around for a while and heads back to inform Glenn's father and Emory Cole to, who has arrived by then, what they had found. And Glenn's father is elated because he thinks if the boat's in good condition, they're fine. They're somewhere, you know, maybe they've camped out somewhere. Maybe one of them is injured. And they had to sort of just like build a camp there and wait till somebody found them. But we found this sign. We're going to find them. So Emory Kolb, being sort of the adventurer that he is, he's like, I want to go see. So he gets in the plane and they take off again, and they go back with him. At one point, apparently, he almost fell out of the plane. Because, remember, this is the old days where it's just open, right? And so he's like trying to lean over and see right as the pilot decides to turn in the direction he's leaning over. And he almost fell out of plane, but he didn't. And so they take him. He flies over the boat. He sees the boat, and he is positive that it is Glenn's boat. He had seen Glenn's boat, and frankly, there just weren't any like it on the Colorado. So he didn't have any doubts. He's like, that's definitely it. And he also could confirm what the pilots had said, that the boat wasn't damaged. The Belongings, the food, everything still appears to be on board. And so this is like a big deal. And they decide to head back. And during these air searches, and they had seen several places where there were footsteps, and they could see the footprints even from the air, because, like I said, they weren't that high up. They could see footprints in these various places heading down the river, heading towards this mile 237. And the only people on the river were Glenn and Bessie. So if you saw footprints, it was there. And so they had seen them in these various areas. And so it appears to them that they are making their way down the river and that they are probably fun.
- [11:27]
A
That's so amazing, right, that this is how remote it is. If there are footprints, it's only theirs. That's true. There's nobody here at all. But also, this is such a conundrum, right? Like what. How. How could this possibly be? All along, you know, we've thought these riptides, these massive, massive rocks. Something's gonna happen to the boat. There's no way we're gonna find the boat. Fine. Not with all their belongings. Surely there's going to be a story once we find it. But only question marks are coming up now.
- [11:53]
B
So it's December 24, 1928, and Emory Kolb and his brother, Ellsworth kolb, they decide they're going to get in a boat. A guy named Jimmy brooks is going to go with them, and they're going to go down to the site where the hides scow was located, because that was the only way to really get there quickly. You could travel over land and then hike down, but it was very difficult. And the area that the hides had entered had very steep canyon walls, and they weren't easy to maneuver. So they figure the fastest way to do this is just to go down the river. So they get in some boats that are much better suited for the rapids than the one the hides have, and they start heading down this river. And they begin on Christmas eve.
- [12:38]
A
So then On Christmas Day, 1928, they arrived at the scow. By mile 237, it was sitting in a calm bit of water roughly 30ft off the shore. All of the belongings were still in the boat, including Bessie's diary. And the entries themselves didn't tell them much. But the last entry was dated November 30, so nearly a month earlier, they had carved a notch on the side of the boat for each day of the trip, which corresponded with the last entry in the diary. They also found a camera with the last photo thought to have been taken around November 27. They had left their warm jackets and hiking boots on board, as well as their food and Glenn's gun. Now, the searchers had been unable to dislodge the bowline, so they cut it. And this was largely criticized because if Glen and Bessie were somewhere on shore, they had just taken away everything they would have needed to survive. Now, the search party took all the gear they could carry and abandoned the scow. Because the scow is massive, they can't really tug it along.
- [13:41]
B
And I'll just say, you know, this criticism, it's something that would sort of haunt Emory Colb for the rest of his life. People would always be critical about the fact that they cut the line. So essentially, just so you're clear on this, so the boat is in the water. It is not tied up to the shore. What has happened is the line that you would use to tie up is basically lodged in some rocks under the river.
- [14:06]
A
And.
- [14:06]
B
And they can't get it loose, and they can't get down there to it to dislodge it. So the only thing they can do. Well, they could leave the boat there, or they could cut it loose. And people have said, you should have left it there. Because if the hides had been hiking somewhere and they came back, they come back, the boat's gone, their stuff's gone. You know, what are you thinking? As Alice pointed out, it had been a month. It had been a month since they had done anything with the diary or the boat or the camera. So the chances that they had just gone for, like, a day hike up the side of the cliff, very low. Second thing, they'd left their warm clothes, their hiking boots. Remember, it's winter in the Grand Canyon. If you've been to the Grand Canyon in winter, it snows. You know, you may think of it as a desert, but remember, deserts get really cold. They get really cold, frankly, in the summer at night. But this is a period where the whole area is cold. And, in fact, the Colorado river will start to freeze up at points. And people run into that problem, too. So the fact that they don't have their heavy coats, they didn't take their gun with them. They didn't take their hiking boots with them. They didn't take their food with them. They weren't coming back to that.
- [15:18]
A
They hadn't made notches in the boat for roughly a month. They hadn't made entries. They hadn't taken pictures. The boat wasn't, like, pulled up ashore, and they had made a little Lean to. To sleep at night. Right. This is 30ft offshore, not impossible to get to, but also not a typical place where you would tie it up if you were just going on a hike.
- [15:34]
B
And the Coles actually, you know, it said that they cut it loose, but what they actually did is Emory and his brother got in it and rode it a little ways down the river because they wanted to see how it felt. And they said they were amazed at how balanced it was and how you could control it. Now they lost control a couple times, but, you know, they made it to sort of the next place you could get out. And they got out and then they just let it go from that point. They let it go down the river and the river took it wherever it took it. But at that point, the boat's gone. They've recovered everything that was in it, and they're taking all that back with them. So December 27, 1928, the search party arrives back at their sort of beginning location, and they turn over everything they have to RC Hyde and the investigators. Now, at some point during their ride back, their boat had actually tipped over and they did lose some of the belongings. And people have wondered if maybe they lost something that could have been critical to uncovering the mystery. But I think the important things, the things like the diary, the camera, all of that that they still had. So they lost some stuff, but it doesn't seem like they lost anything too important. So December 29, 1928, the search, you know, this search, lots of different people. The National Park Service, which had only been there for a while, the locals didn't really like, including Emory Colb, you know, they're fully involved. All of their rangers are searching. We've got people from the military searching. We've got military planes. We have everybody in the area. You have several different boats going down the river, trying to find something, stopping and finding these footprints. Finding, for instance, places where they had carved their initials into the wood, just showing that they had made it some distance after they were last seen. But by December 29, it is getting very cold, blizzard type conditions, and the search is called off. But by this point, the national media has picked up on this story and there is a media frenzy that has ensued. And it became so sensational and the stories were so filled with inaccuracies that Glenn's sister Jean, actually would start writing letters to all these various newspapers attempting to correct some of these falsehoods, because there's nothing new under the sun and everybody loves a good story. So it's getting more and more dramatic as it's sort of filtering out to the world now. Although the official search was called off, Glen and Bessie's families remained committed to finding them, particularly Glen's father. And in fact, Bessie's father would come out eventually to join him. And they're going up and down the river and he's searching, you know, he's climbing up the sides to see if there's any way they could have gotten up the sides of the river. He's riding down the river. People are amazed by this. In his elderly stage, he's able to do things that people just don't do. But unfortunately, despite all of these efforts and all this hope and frankly, Glenn's father spent pretty much every dime he had to organize searches, to fund searches looking for his son and his daughter in law. But they would never find the couple nor any other indication of what happened to them.
- [18:40]
A
And that's about it. The end of 1928 closes out, the search is called off and essentially the case goes immensely cold.
- [18:52]
B
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- [22:07]
A
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- [22:31]
B
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- [22:52]
A
Enter 1971. We've had no word. Still an enduring mystery. An elderly woman and college professor named Liz Cutler was on a commercial Grand Canyon rafting trip. So now you know. Many decades later, you can pay a raft guide to take you down these rapids. And it's a lot of fun. Now the group stopped for the night. And around the campfire the leader began to tell the story of what happened to the Hydes. As he recounted the story, Liz interrupted him. I know this story, she said, because I'm Bessie Hyde. She went on to say that Glen was abusive and stabbed her on the trip. So she escaped the canyon on her own. But when authorities caught up with the woman, she claimed she'd never told the story. She was also 4 inches taller than Bessie, and her birth records proved that she was not, in fact, Bessie.
- [23:43]
B
And this didn't stop a lot of people from running with this story. In fact, if you have seen the very first episode of Unsolved Mysteries, this is featured and this story is featured. And you can imagine. So basically, these people had been on like a. This takes a long time, as we've seen. I mean, this is. You're really investing time and effort to go down the river. So they're on like a two week journey. Everybody got to know each other and they're riding down the river, they're stopping, they're telling ghost stories, they're eating food. All this is happening. They get to know each other very well. And everybody else on the trip was like, yeah, Liz, she was very quiet. She didn't say much. She seemed to know her way around the river. She was good at it. Didn't seem like this was her first time. There was that sort of thing. And then she just says this. And according to the witnesses, it was completely deadpan. It wasn't in a joking manner. It was just, you know, I know the story. It's me, like, I'm Bessie Hyde, and she tells a story that ends up this incredibly abusive relationship. And if you recall, you know, there were all these questions about did Bessie really want to be on this trip and if she was fine starting this trip, did she really want to continue it? And it's hard to say, right? And this plays into that, that in fact, this was all Glenn's idea. And that Glenn wanted fame. He wanted to turn this into a money making affair. He was willing to do whatever it took to finish this trip so they could build a career on this. And he didn't care how dangerous it was. And so I think a lot of people think she probably at some point said, I don't want to do this anymore. And when she did that, he got abusive and the knife gets involved and she ends up stabbing him, I think in the back is her story, and leaves him there to die, I guess, throws his body in the water and hikes out. And a lot of people question whether it was even possible to hike out subsequently to this. They build the Hoover Dam on the Colorado river just down from this. And there's a story about two guys who end up. They're trying to raft down the river to get to where they're building the dam so they can, like, take a job, and they get stuck in exactly the same place where the scow was found. And they hiked out. They hiked out all the way to the rim, ended up walking to the dam. So the fact that they could do that makes people think, okay, maybe this is possible. Maybe she could have done this. Weirdly, she was this professor at a university of psychology. I mean, a very sort of normal person, right? No reason you would expect that she would tell this kind of lie. But her position from that point forward is it never happened. And all the people on the trip who also have no reason to lie are like, no, you totally said that. Like, we would just make that up, you know? But as weird as it is, she has a pretty good alibi because she was off living a life somewhere else, and she's too tall, so it probably wasn't her why she would do this. I mean, you know, we just finished a case with all sorts of accusations of people saying things that aren't true. And you've like, why would anybody do that? Well, it seems like that's exactly what she did. For whatever reason, whatever her motivation was, she decided she was going to claim to be this woman and never recanted it. So made it on Unsolved Mysteries, though. So what can you say? Okay, so if you think, like, oh, now it's time to wrap it up, because that's weird. That's the weird aspect of this case. No, that is the least weird thing that happened in this case. So fast forward six years to February 7, 1977. So on that day, Emory Kolb died. Emory Kolb had been sort of an institution on the Grand Canyon. He had this cabin that he did all his photography. As the Grand Canyon became more sort of nationalized and fell under federal attention, they kept trying to make him move, and he never would move. And he hated them. They hated him. And then by the time he died, he lived so long that by the time he died, his cabin was now like a national monument. So they could never tear his cabin down. So it's still there. And now it's like a museum. But the deal had been you can stay here until you die, but once you die, you got to clean your stuff out. And then this will become sort of a federal property. So his friends, they're over at his house, they're cleaning it out. They go out to the garage and they notice there's a boat, and the boat is, like, up in the rafters, right? It's like an old canoe. It's like, well, I got to get the canoe down. So they climb up there, and they bring the canoe down, and they pull back the tarp. And what do you think they find?
- [28:31]
A
You can't guess. This. This is, like, the creepiest thing ever.
- [28:34]
B
They find a skeleton, a human skeleton in this boat in Emory Kolb's garage. And the initial thought everybody had was, is this Glen Hyde? And the thing about the skeleton, it wasn't just that there was a skeleton in the boat. It also had a hole in its head that was determined to have been a.22 caliber revolver round had caused this. So he had been shot. And in fact, the.22 caliber bullet was recovered from inside the skull. So obviously, people start freaking out because they're like, is this Glenn Hyde? Is this what happened? You know, maybe Emory had designs on Bessie, or maybe Bessie didn't want to continue and was like, hey, you have to help me get away from this. Can you help me? And so he kills Glenn and hides the body. So this becomes heavily debated for years. And as I said, this also is in the Unsolved Mysteries episode. So there's sort of a couple takes on this. Initially, people looked at this, and they said, the age is the same, the height is the same, there's a belt buckle. So the clothes of the skeleton were with the skeleton. There's a belt buckle, which people compared to the photographs Emory Colb had taken and said very similar belt buckle. And it was said that emory Colb owned a.22 caliber revolver. And so the idea was that he do this. So at some point, they submitted the remains for DNA testing, but they were too degraded to result in any useful information. There was a story that was eventually developed by the county sheriffs who looked into this, and they said that this was actually a suicide. So an unknown person had killed themselves near the Grand Canyon. And how Emre Kolb ended up with the body is a little disputed. Some people say that he agreed to sort of take custody of the body so that if anybody ever came to claim it, you know, they'd have it. Why he would do that, I don't know why he.
- [30:54]
A
Why he would keep it in a boat and not tell anyone when he was dying.
- [30:59]
B
Very strange. One of his friends would later claim to have known about the body and that Emory had said, yeah, whenever I die, that's gonna. It's gonna raise some questions. But he never, like, Left sort of a description of what this was or why it was. The generally accepted theory at this point is that in fact, and there's been, as you can imagine, a lot of analysis done on the skeleton in the decades since. The current theory is that in fact the person was too young to be Glen Hyde. They've done more examinations of that belt buckle and in fact they don't seem to match. In fact, they appear to be very different from each other. So the idea that somehow Emory Kolb came into possession of this person's body and for some reason held onto it, which in of itself may be a mystery and may be an unsolvable mystery, but whatever the answer to that, it's not Glen Hyde. So that's where we're at. I'm sure they'll continue to try and do DNA testing to determine who it actually was, but probably not Glen Hyde.
- [32:08]
A
Probably. But until you tell me it's not, it's a really good and bizarre twist. Okay, so we still don't have any answers. And that's in 1977. Again, completely cold, completely dark. Nothing is added to the story. Enter 1992. When Georgie Clark, a famous female rafter, died. She had some interesting items in her possession. In a drawer next to her bed, beneath some old lingerie, her friends found a pistol and a piece of paper. The pistol was consistent with the one that Glen Hyde carried with him. And the piece of paper, Glen and Bessie's marriage certificate. And then they found Georgie's birth certificate. They were shocked to learn that her name wasn't Georgie, it was Bessie. Let that sink in for a second because woo, we just talked about Liz the professor, how the birth certificate showed that in fact she could not have been Bessie. Now we have Georgie dyeing with some old lingerie, hiding what could be the key to a nearly century old mystery.
- [33:15]
B
What's wild about this is she had written a memoir about her life because people really interested in her because she was this woman who'd come to the Colorado and, and did all this rafting. There's a rapid named after her, like all that sort of stuff. She had written a memoir, published a memoir talking about her childhood in Chicago, growing up in the frozen lake and like all this other stuff and they find out she'd never lived in Chicago. That was all made up. Like her entire life had been a lie. One of her friends said, they called another friend and said we never knew Georgie, we never know who Georgie is. Like everything about her life is a lie. And then they start finding all this stuff, and you can imagine where their minds go.
- [33:57]
A
So this shocking discovery led some people to believe, of course, that maybe Georgie Clark was really Bessie Hyde. I mean, why else would she have, you know, what appeared to be Glenn Hyde's pistol? Why else would she have Clenn and Bessie's marriage certificate? Her own name by birth was Bessie, but Georgie Clark and Bessie Hyde didn't look alike. And Georgie's life, including her early life, are actually very well documented. So it's not likely that it was like a face off situation where she changed her face and her height and the way she appeared later on, because she didn't just come on the scene as say, a 30 year old. People knew about her earlier on. So maybe these are just souvenirs from another female rafter that she kept at her bedside underneath her old lingerie.
- [34:46]
B
And what's crazy, and this was kind of like the skeleton, people immediately launch this huge investigation to find out who she is. Like, could she possibly be Bessie Hyde? And as they start to track her down, they find her actual family. I mean, she was actually from like somewhere completely nondescript. And I think that's why she picked Chicago. And they found some family and she had some surviving siblings. And that was the problem. Like if she literally had just sort of manifested out of nowhere, then you're like, oh, okay, well, maybe that is her. But it seems like she actually did have a life. And we know that Bessie also had a life. Her father came to look for her. So as tantalizing as this is, I think we can say that Bessie Clark was not Bessie Hyde, though we'll come back to her later on. So as we've said several times, Emory and Ellsworth Cole, they are famous characters in the story. And if you would like to visit their home and studio, it is still on the canyon today and is open for public tours. The next time you're in the Grand Canyon, head down there and learn more about the skeleton that was found in their garage. Probably learn some other things too, but that's one that's interesting. So let's talk about Bessie's state of mind, because it's something that we've talked about sort of throughout this as we've gone. And it's important as we try and figure out what happened here, because as we're going to see, there are multiple theories about what may have happened. So was Bessie as interested in continuing this adventure as Glenn was? So as Bessie was leaving Emory Kolbs, she made a cryptic comment, looking down at Emory's daughter Emily. Bessie noticed she was nicely dressed. And Bessie said, I wonder if I shall ever wear pretty shoes again. And this comment really bothered Emory Kolb. He already was worried about this. He was worried about the fact that these people did not seem to know what they were getting into. So he immediately starts to try and convince them, hey, you know, don't go. He says, hey, wouldn't it be better to finish your trip later on? Why don't you stay with me through the winter? You can sort of experience the Grand Canyon winter. It'll be another part of your story you can tell. And he's thinking in his mind, if I can just get them to stop doing this, maybe I can get them to abandon the whole trip altogether. He does all this and Glenn in particular. Glenn says, no, no, we have to keep going. Kolb says, hey, I've got some life jackets. Why don't you take my life jackets? And Glenn says, no, no, no, in Idaho we don't do life jackets. And he's always the one speaking for the two of them. And it leads people to think, did Bessie really want to do this? And then you had Sutro, remember, he was on the boat with them those last few days. And we show those photographs, which I hope, if you're listening to this on the podcast, you'll go search them out, because there's the photograph taken by Emory Kolb before they started this leg of the journey, which in fact turned out to be one of the most difficult legs, probably the most difficult leg. They thought the worst was behind them. They were wrong. The worst was ahead. You take this picture before, they look happy, they look ready to go, they look adventurous. Then there's the picture that Sutro took just before he left them. The last person to see them alive. And they look completely miserable. And he speculated that Bessie didn't want to continue the trip. And then there was sort of this third hand story, little bit of hearsay of someone witnessing a fight on one of the beaches where they had stopped between the newlyweds. That actually ended with Glenn forcibly carrying Bessie back to the boat. So one of the things you have to think about, and this kind of goes back to that story we heard from the lady who was on the trip. Could it have been that at some point Bessie became sick of this and she took matters into her own hands?
- [38:49]
A
I mean, we've talked about how she's this tiny woman, like £90, and this is tough. This isn't a week or two or even a month of adventure. This is a long Slog in really, like the worst of conditions. And they're newlyweds. This is like their newlywed honeymoon. Right. There's nothing glamorous about this. And the glamour is the promise at the end. Remember how Glenn and Bessie met? They were on a boat going down to LA for her to go make it big as, you know, like a movie star or something like that with her roommate. And so the allure of it was probably rubbing off. If the promise at the beginning of the trip was, you're going to be famous. Your face is going to be splashed across every magazine. Every young girl is going to want to be like you. That sounds incredible. But once you're in that scow, hitting these rapids, falling out of the boat, seeing death close up over and over, other people who are very experienced telling you, hey, don't do this. You can imagine how it wouldn't be a stretch to think maybe Bessie was thinking, whatever fame and fortune may come later, it's not worth what I'm having to go through now. But I don't think Glen was on that same train. He wanted to finish this.
- [39:57]
B
So let's talk about some possible theories. The first one, and probably the least likely, is that they were both murdered. And so this theory is sort of a general theory that they were murdered by bandits or locals or some of the local tribes who lived in the area. Someone decided to murder them while they are on the river. And this is one of those things that I think strikes our modern ear. It's possible, right? Unfortunately, whenever you head out into the wilds, you never know what you're going to run into. And we have plenty of horror movies with people running into all sorts of bad things. People living out in the middle of nowhere, and then these two come through and they're murdered. But the reality is, at that time, almost impossible. They could have been murdered. Very difficult murder to commit.
- [40:42]
A
I was gonna say, who was gonna murder them? Nobody was even there, right. Quite literally. It was hard to even get there.
- [40:48]
B
There were no pirates of the Colorado river that were gonna do this. The local tribes were very helpful in the search. No indication they would have any reason or desire to do this.
- [40:59]
A
They were, in some ways, little celebrities already. They had given interviews. There were articles written about it. So this was gonna be a very risky murder. If you could even get to them. They were already on the radar of, like, the local news circuit. People were waiting for the end of this story. So it would certainly not be like an anonymous murder.
- [41:17]
B
So we'll return to Murders in a Little bit more narrow fashion later, but I think sort of just a general. They ran into the. You know, the serial killer, picked him up in his boat or whatever. Whatever the 1928 equivalent would be. Don't think that happened. Which leads us to what we were just talking about is that there was some sort of marital issue here. As we said, there are many people who believe that Bessie was tired of the trip and that she was bullied into continuing on by Glenn. And there are entries in Bessie's diary that somewhat suggest that she was exhausted by the journey. But she provided very few details. She didn't write very detailed journal entries. And in fact, by the end, it was almost in, like, code. You can sort of figure out. She's basically saying, we went through this many rapids, this many eddies, got stuck this many times, but not a whole lot there. And this was new to her. Glenn was an experienced boater. Bessie was not. And this has led some to speculate that perhaps Bessie made a mistake that frustrated Glenn to the point where maybe in a rage, he killed her, and then he had to cover it up and disappear to avoid prosecution. On the flip side, there are people who believe it was actually Bessie. She was done with the trip, and Glenn wouldn't let her leave, and so she killed him so that she could leave and start her own new life. But there are a couple problems with this. One, there's never been any evidence that Glenn or Bessie was ever seen or heard from again after that honeymoon. Number two, there's no real evidence that anybody was murdered. So there was not. It wasn't like there was a pool of blood on the boat or anything along those lines. Moreover, the things that you would expect, whoever survived would have taken with them were still on the boat. And the third thing, this theory really gives Glenn a bad name in a way that's unfair. So essentially, there are no credible reports that Glenn was anything other than very supportive, very loving, and that they had a very good relationship. And this sort of idea as Glenn as some sort of brute really is something that developed in the decades after this. It began in some of those newspaper articles we talked about. This is one of the details that is widely considered to be inaccurate. The story about her being carried into the boat is almost certainly false because the person who said they saw it was nowhere near where it happened. So that person didn't see it and then claimed the story for themselves. Sutro, while he said that he thought Bessie was tiring of the trip, also said that Glenn was incredibly attentive to her was incredibly kind and caring. So it is possible, of course, because you never know what's going on behind the scenes in any marriage. Possible, of course, that they had some sort of falling out, but there's really no reason to believe it other than just the stress of the situation they were in. Guys, y' all know we are covered up with children on this podcast and we care about their health and we want them to have vitamins that are good for them, not just that taste good. Typical children's vitamins are basically candy in disguise. They're filled with two teaspoons of sugar, unhealthy chemicals, and other gummy junk growing kids should never eat. And that's why Haya was created. Haya fills in the most common gaps in modern children's diets. Formulated with the help of nutritional experts, Haya is pressed with a blend of 12 organic fruits and veggies, then supercharged with 15 essential vitamins and minerals, including vitamin D, B12C, zinc, folate, and many others to help support immunity, energy, brain function, mood, concentration, teeth, bones and more. 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- [47:44]
A
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- [48:09]
B
And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework.
- [48:43]
A
So then what about the Kolb brothers? Because some people understandably are a little skeptical of the Kolb brothers, thinking that they were the ones who murdered the couple. They seem to have involved themselves in this case and they did do some strange things, particularly Emery, like untying the boat and allegedly wearing Glen's boots. So when the skeleton was found in Emory Kolb's garage, it seemed like they finally had an answer. But of course, that proved to be an unidentified suicide victim and not Glen Hyde. But what would be the motive? It's really unclear what would motivate the Kohl brothers to to murder Glen and Bessie here. What do they have to gain from the Hyde's deaths? Some have suggested that Emery was obsessed with Bessie, but that is pure speculation. There's absolutely no evidence of that. So other than having, like, a skeleton tied up in your canoe when you were dead, Other than that, there's really nothing pointing to the fact that the Kolbs did it. Yes, they were the ones who got in the boat and, you know, ultimately found the scow. But they were doing a public service. Not a lot of people could do this. Remember, there were only two previous rafters. Who've been able to navigate this entire river. So the Kolves were among the few people who could actually go to the scow. And see if they could find answers to the disappearance. Or maybe even find Glen and Bessie. So they may be getting a slightly unfair bad rap. Because they were simply capable of getting to the scow.
- [50:13]
B
Now, definitely the sexiest theory. And you can develop a lot of sexy theories. Is that the Kolb brothers did it. So, remember, right around the time they disappeared, Emory and his brother leave the area. Right. We all know from our many discussions about FBI profiling. That leaving the area right after a crime could be a sign of guilt. The other thing that's interesting to bring you back to Georgie Clark. Remember, she is the female famous rafter. She and Emory Colb hated each other, and nobody ever knew why. You never really understood why they hated each other. And then you find this, the marriage certificate. And you sort of start to. You can build sort of theories in your mind that have no support. Because what fun would that be? But that somehow Georgie knew about Emory's involvement. But she could never prove it. And that's why she didn't like him. And somehow she ends up with a marriage certificate. Maybe it's less contentious than that. Maybe Glenn did want to continue and Bessie didn't. And Bessie asked Emory for his help. And Emory helps her start her own life. And when he finds the boat, the reason he cuts it free and lets it go. Because he's getting rid of evidence. Right? Maybe he had done that before, sent it down the river, thinking it would be destroyed forever. And then there it is. It gets stuck again. So they have to send it on all this sort of things. And that maybe she gave the marriage certificate to Emory Cole. And then he ends up giving it to Georgie Clark at some point, and they have a falling out. I don't know. A lot of speculation, nothing solid there. But there's so many weird things going on in this story. Like, it's not just one weird thing. I mean, if all we had was the lady saying that she was Bessie Hyde on the rafting trip, that would be Pretty wild, right? But in addition, that you do have the skeleton, which shows you that Emory Cole. There's something weird about him. Okay, he's off. Whoever that was. Even though it's probably completely unrelated, still not the kind of thing most people would do, but he does it. And then all the strangeness with Georgie Clarke, and it just feels like there really should be some sort of through line here that ties this all together. This were a movie, if life were a movie, they all would be involved in this, right? It would all come together. Like, you could write a great fictionalized story on this where it all comes together at the end and you realize that all these different people were involved. It's almost like a Murder on the Orient Express type thing. They're all helping her get away. Doesn't really fit with Glenn's actual character. But obviously in the movie, he would be very abusive. So he would be like the guy from Titanic or something. Anyway, so those are some theories. Then, of course, we have the most likely theory, and that's that Glenn and Bessie died running the rapids. Remember, this is an extremely dangerous undertaking. You don't really need conspiracies to explain this away. And although Glenn was experienced with boating and he had ran rapids before and ran some serious ones up in Idaho, these were more difficult than anything he had done in the past in an unfamiliar area where his boat was not really made to travel. And Bessie had no boating experience. She was learning on the river. And they easily could have made mistakes that could have cost them their lives. And remember, before we got to this point, both of them had fallen off the boat at one point. And in one case, Glenn manages, I think, to grab a rope and pull himself back on. When Bessie falls off, he reaches down and grabs her and pulls her back on the boat. And they had already experienced the dangers of this kind of trip. Now, there are some things that seem strange. It is weird that the boat was found upright with all the supplies still inside and in place so the boat didn't flip. Right. Based on where the boat was. If they had just huddled down in sort of the depression in the middle of the boat and just let the rapids take them, they'd have been fine. They would have ended up exactly where the boat was found. Now, they didn't know that, obviously. And so that has led to a theory that at river mile 232, which is a particularly dangerous part of the river that has these submerged rocks, that what probably happened is that as they were going through those rapids, they had these rocks that were just enough below the surface that they didn't know that they were there. And then when they hit them, one or both of them were thrown off the boat. Maybe one of them goes off the boat and the other one goes in to try and save them. Maybe they're both thrown off the boat. Either way, they're separated from the boat and the boat continues. And guess what? They don't have any life jackets. And some people say, yeah, but isn't it weird that their bodies were never found? Because everybody just always assumes you're going to find bodies. Recall number one, not many people around. Even with the search as thorough as it was, it could not be that thorough. Lots of scavengers in the area, lots of places the bodies could go. And there's a simple fact that around this time of the, I think dozen people, there were a dozen people who went missing on the river. Of the dozen people who weren't wearing life jackets, only one body was ever found. The people are wearing life jackets. Usually they survived, but when they didn't, they found their bodies. When they weren't wearing life jackets, they tended not to be found.
- [55:45]
A
And part of this is, of course, with the rapids. The water is recycling down. Remember where they found the bow? The bowline was stuck so deep down in the rocks that they couldn't reach it. There are all these jagged rocks underneath. If you've seen the canyons, you've seen all these jagged rocks. Now imagine the water rising above it. That's what's under there. It's an entire, like, ecosystem of rocks. And certainly not smoothness. Bodies can get submerged and stuck in those rocks much deeper than anything we could see. And that's probably why a lot of those bodies were never found.
- [56:18]
B
There's even one theory that one of them was attached to that line and had ended up in the water, stuck down beneath the water. And that when they cut the line unknowingly, they actually ensured they couldn't recover the body because the body was there. I mean, that's just a theory of what could possibly have happened. But it goes to what you're saying, that it is not difficult to imagine something like that happening. And then once all you have are bones in the Colorado River, I mean, the chances of ever finding anything are pretty low. There is a corollary to this theory, and that's that they had some issue with the boat, they decided they wanted to stop, and they tried to hike out and didn't make it. This is probably not true, even though it's certainly Possible they could have done that. You wouldn't find their bodies, though. More likely to find their bodies. The biggest issue is they didn't take anything they would have taken with them. Like, they weren't hiking out of there without their hiking boots and their gun and their food. They would have taken those things. So I think the chances of that theory being correct are unlikely. So that's the story of Glenn and Bessie Hyde. I do want to read you something from Sunk Without a Sound that I thought was poignant. So after this happened, remember we talked about how there were a lot of stories in the national newspapers about them that had a lot of misinformation. Well, it wasn't just that. There were also stories that said things like, this should be the definitive proof that no one should ever try this again. Like this is people need to quit doing things like trying to climb mountains and go down rivers and all that other stuff. And so Jeannie, who was Glenn's sister, actually wrote a response to that, and this is what she said. And I thought this was poignant. Mrs. Hyde shares my brother's love for adventure and knowing his skill with boats in the past, was anxious to go on the Colorado river trip. She did not go for notoriety, and neither did he. There happen to be some people in the world who do such things for the love of it. There happened to be some people who retain enough of their love of roughing it and living, if only for a short time after the manner of our ancestors to attempt such a trip. Such are Mr. And Mrs. Hyde. They cared enough for that sort of adventure to take a chance. I like that. I mean, they ended up dying, but nevertheless.
- [58:40]
A
But I mean, that is the whole point of adventure, right? You do adventurous things. If this is your cup of tea, because there is risk, if it were riskless, then it wouldn't be nearly as thrilling to do it. And people, to some degree, I think we all think that we're invincible or immortal. But the reason you do these things is because the element of danger, and Glenn certainly knew that. Now, whether Bessie fully appreciated it by the time she got on the river and was thrown from the boat and, you know, was living the rapids, she appreciated it by the time that whatever happened to them, happened to them. And so this was a very real, calculated risk that they took. And I don't know, it's still incredible and still incredibly brave to do, especially 100 years ago.
- [59:28]
B
So I do highly want to recommend Sunk Without a Sound. If you haven't read it, really interesting book. If for no Other reason. Then the author and his wife decided to build the exact same boat that Glenn and Betsy took and to take it down the Colorado. So they sort of tried to recreate this trip and just reading about how awful it was. And you know, they had life jackets, number one. And they also had a friend of theirs in sort of a regular motorized boat following behind them for the various times that they needed savings. But it's really interesting both as a historical look at this case and also just for their own personal adventures. So check that out if you've enjoyed this story. Well, Alice, do you have time for a question or what?
- [60:15]
A
We absolutely have time for a question. Now that we're back to these, like two episoders. So easy.
- [60:21]
B
No. And you know, hour long episodes, like the West Memphis. Three episodes would be like an hour long.
- [60:26]
A
Like three hours long. Eat.
- [60:28]
B
Yeah. So anyway. Okay, well, let's see. You know, we've had several of these questions. So I'm gonna go. But I'm gonna go ahead and ask it again anyways. Cause we just got somebody who asked this. I know, we've answered this.
- [60:39]
A
People really want to know the answer to it. Maybe they don't like our answers. We have to change.
- [60:42]
B
I would like to say I'm gonna think we've inspired a lot of people to consider going to law school. And so this person says, what would you say to someone who's considering going to law school later in life?
- [60:52]
A
Okay, we should change our answer because people have the other answers. So maybe they don't like the answer we've given. So we need to change the answer. So here's new advice. You've never heard it before. Oh, wait. If you're going later in life. I know we've said this before. The whole law school can take forever. Make sure to draw boundaries. I'll change up the advice this time just for, you know, additional advice you can give if you go later in life. I would say that don't look at law school like some big white whale. It is a profession like any other profession. Now, of course we do it because we love it. But I think there are some people who view going to law school or becoming a lawyer something that seems so unattainable that it dampens kind of their spirit in terms of what they go for. So if you're going to law school, the world is your oyster. Go for the Law review if that's what you want. Go for a clerkship if that's what you want. Go for writing research papers with that professor that you Want, you know, don't think that because you're going at it later in life or there's nothing unattainable about it. If you're going to law school, everything's attainable in this profession is simply to not be daunted by the profession, by law school. And, you know, the only limitation, I would say, is yourself. So don't do things you don't want to, but also don't view it because you're going at it later in life. Well, I can't do that. That's a young person's game. No, certainly not. So that would be my piece of advice is it's, it's not that unattainable. It's right there. Even we could become lawyers.
- [62:19]
B
It's true. I give you, I give you two pieces of advice. I don't remember if I've said this before, but whatever. The first is always consider the cost. And what I mean is the monetary cost. Just because when I went to law school, I just graduated from college, I was 22 years old, and I knew I would have $200,000 in debt. I remember my dad asking me about that, and I was like, you know what? It's just, it's an investment. And I knew I would have that debt. And I knew for the first 10 years or so at law school at least I would be paying a lot of money back. Right? And that's just the way it was going to be. But that was fine because 10 years out of law school, I'd be 35, whatever, right? No biggie. Obviously, if you take on that much debt later in life, just factor that in to what you're doing. So try and figure out ways maybe to not take on as much debt. And just know that is going to be something. If you're graduating, you know, at 45 as opposed to 25, do you really want to work the extra amount of time you'll need to, to pay that off? And maybe you just want to work long enough to pay it off because it's not, you're not really doing it for that reason. This is like a passion or second career or something along those lines. Or maybe you never want to stop working and you don't care. I mean, there's also that. So just something to consider. And the second thing, and this goes for whether you're doing law school right out of college or in your 50s. I'll give you the best piece of advice that was given to me that I didn't follow, and that's to treat Law school like a job, it's not like college. It is completely different from college. If you treat it like college like I did, you'll end up like me and you don't want that, right? So the best advice I got was, and like I said, I didn't do this, but was to treat it like a job. And so wake up in the morning, go to work, which is go to the library, read your books, getting ready for your classes, go to your classes. When your classes are over, go back to the library, work on whatever you need to work on. And then at 5 or 6 o', clock, stop, go home, make dinner, relax, watch television, go to bed, get up, do it over again and just do it that way. Live it like a job. And if you do that, it'll actually be pretty easy. Most people don't do that. They treat it like college where, you know, you wake up at noon to get to your 11 o' clock class and then you're doing homework until midnight because you didn't start it until after you got back from the bar or whatever. And that just makes it a lot harder. So don't do that. Be more mature about it. And if you're older, going to law school, and I'll tell you this, the people who were older who went to law school, that's how they all did it. All of them did it that way. Some of them were married people had jobs, so they wanted to get it done before their spouses got home. Some of them had kids and they didn't want to spend their evenings doing law school stuff. So they treat it like a job. All those people were better off. So treat it like a job. That's gonna be my, my advice.
- [65:06]
A
I didn't follow that either and I should have. I should treat my job now as a job and I don't do that either.
- [65:12]
B
Yeah, I know. I treat this more like a job than my actual job. My actual job is like, I mean, close your ears. People who I work with, my actual job is kind of like a hassle. It's like, oh, I gotta do my.
- [65:23]
A
Job, it's a hassle. You know, I mean I, I mean the hours thing, I'm terrible about not having boundaries, clearly with my out like when I work, like weekends, nights, that sort of thing. That's what I mean is I should have, I should treat my jobs like that now.
- [65:36]
B
Yeah, it's true. So, more life advice. Okay, well, if you have a question you want to ask, leave a five star review and we will add you to the list been lots of five star reviews lately who didn't leave a question. So you just missed out on your opportunity. If you go back and edit it, we'll see your question, we will add it, and we will answer it at some later date. Hope you guys have enjoyed this. If you have cases you want to hear, shoot us an email@secutespodmail.com Connect with Us Social media prosecutors pod go to the gallery where they will be discussing this case and they're probably still discussing West Memphis three and other cases. You'll have a lot of fun there. If you want to see us record these episodes live, join Patreon for as little as $3. If you want to get them early and ad free, same deal, $3 gets you everything. All right, Alice. Well, is there anything else you want to say before we sign off? This episode will come out right after Crimecon. I think so. I hope you guys enjoyed Crimecon. I hope we got to see a bunch of you.
- [66:38]
A
Me too. That's all she's got. I like, really can't believe that. I mean, with school starting, even though Crimecon is just a few weeks away, feels like it's gonna be here before. I know it said this whenever we last recorded, but I have got to go get me some prosecuses so you guys can come and get them. They're free, y', all. But you can only get them in person. And they always go. They really do go like hotcakes. I wonder where they go. I wonder if someone grabs all of them and throws them to the bottom of a river because they go so quickly.
- [67:07]
B
If you want a prostacuzzi, come see us on Friday. Yeah, you really have by Saturday.
- [67:13]
A
I try to hold them back just, you know, in case, you know, there's more people. But I can never. They go really fast. And I think last year we brough.
- [67:21]
B
Thousand we did and they were.
- [67:23]
A
And they were gone on Friday. I don't know, maybe. Maybe we'll get to. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Because they are kind of. They take up a lot of space.
- [67:31]
B
All right, guys, well, it's been a pleasure as always and we will see you next week with a new case. This one has been in the news, so we're doing something a little different. We're going to do a little bit of a look at a case that is currently developing. I know you will enjoy that. We'll see you then. But until then. Hi, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice and we are the prosecutors record.
- [68:16]
A
Okay.
- [68:17]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [68:18]
A
I like to say record when I'm recording. It's very descriptive, prescriptive, and meta.
- [68:25]
B
All right, I'm gonna go ahead and go live.
- [68:27]
A
I was really sad to be, like, at the pool, but it was like, we were, like, the only ones there because, you know, school's about to start. But it was, like, the end of an era, you know? I don't know. So, yeah.
- [68:40]
B
So hello, everyone.
- [68:42]
A
Hello, everybody. Yeah, so my big two start school tomorrow, including Squantu, who starts kindergarten. Sam, no angst about starting school. Like, it's not a big deal. It's just, like, another day, which I don't know why, but that's great. So I was like, are you excited? They're like, oh, yeah. Which is, like, the right attitude to have, but I'm like, you know, a lot of emotions. That bottle looks massive because you're drinking, like, it's, like, right there.
- [70:07]
B
Svishi water. This September, CBS hits are streaming free on Pluto tv.
- [70:56]
A
I'm coming in.
- [70:57]
B
For this month only, you can watch full seasons of the CBS shows you love, from the courtroom drama of Matlock to the heroics of Fire Country. Go back to where it all began in NCIS Origins, or watch the hilarious hauntings of ghosts, all for free. Full seasons of the CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto tv Stream now. Pay never.