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- [00:02]
A
Hey, fans of freedom and open discussion. I'm heading over to Substack and there's an ad free audio and video version of the Adam Carolla show that's going to be waiting there in the near future. You'll even be able to watch ACS live, unedited, as we record it. Participate in the show via live chat. That'll be coming up very soon. You'll also get an ad free version of the Adam Kroll and Dr. Drew show. You also get an exclusive to my new podcast, Beat it out, where I share unpolished ideas with my comedian buddies. The first series of episodes is gonna be Jay Moore. You'll get all this and more for the low, low price of nine bucks a month. A pittance for all we're going to bring you. Subscribe now@adamcarolla.com substack and I'll see all of you in our new speakeasy called Substack.
- [01:11]
B
I'm Brett.
- [01:12]
C
And I'm Alice.
- [01:14]
B
And we are the Prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we finish our look at the Picton murders. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my Miss Piggy of a co host, Alice.
- [02:15]
C
Much better than Porky. I'm not gonna lie. Miss Piggy is way better. Miss Piggy's adorable. Porky, not so. Congratulations. You've not redeemed yourself.
- [02:27]
B
One might say Miss Piggy is Porky, but that's okay.
- [02:29]
C
Oh, Miss Piggy is wonderful.
- [02:33]
B
She is wonderful.
- [02:34]
C
We need a frog. We need this levity before we start because this might be one of the most disturbing cases I've ever seen.
- [02:42]
B
Yeah, I was gonna bring some gummies up here, but I can't find them, so.
- [02:47]
C
No, no. Do you know what? It was like? I couldn't stop thinking about gummies. And I. I went and ate some Haribo. I was like, there could be humans.
- [02:56]
B
In here, but I still ate.
- [02:57]
C
It was like, in my mind, it was implanted. It incepted into my mind that I wanted gummy bears. And then the whole time, I was like, maybe there's human in here.
- [03:04]
B
Could be. You never know.
- [03:05]
C
If you guys missed the first episode, you should really go back.
- [03:08]
B
Yeah. Or else you're completely lost. You're like, what in the world? If this is your first time listening to the podcast, we'll start somewhere else. But if you want to listen to this case, make sure you listen to part one, because it's. It's something. You know, by the time this comes out. It'll be like the second week in November, so people will be getting ready for Thanksgiving. For us, today is the first day of October, so it is. We are.
- [03:32]
C
October 1st feels like fall, even though September 21st, I think, is actually the first day of fall. We are in.
- [03:39]
B
Some podcasts would fake it and just act like we recorded this yesterday and you're hearing it. Our actual thoughts about the upcoming Thanksgiving, but not us. We're not gonna do that to you. We're still very much in Halloween land, so enjoying it. But, you guys, by the time you hear this, you'll have heard of October episodes, and I hope you enjoyed them and hope you had a great Halloween. Okay, are we ready to dive into this case?
- [04:04]
C
Really are. It's actually amazing that we're not even through the timeline yet, because so much murder has happened up to this point.
- [04:09]
B
It's pretty awful. Pretty awful. I mean, this is one of those. This is one of the worst crimes in history. And it is interesting because we talked about this before. You think about serial killers, you always think about the United States. The United States is famous for how many serial killers we have had over the decades, but it's hard to find one worse than Picton.
- [04:31]
C
That's absolutely right. So this slew of murders begins in the late 80s. And we took you through the timeline last week, and we're talking dozens of dozens of women are disappearing and ending up murdered. This brings us now to May of 2005. I mean, this is a serial killer who is on the go for multiple decades. Now, police confirm that Pickton will be tried for 27 murders. 26 of them are known victims, and one of them is an unknown victim whose DNA was linked to the Farm. The charge for the unknown victim was later dropped August 9, 2006, due to differences in the evidence, as well as in an effort to make things easier on the jury. Because a 26, 27 murder charge is a lot for the jury to take in, the court actually decides to divide the case into two trials. That's still double digits in murders for each trial. Picton will initially be tried for the murders of the six women, and then a separate murder trial will be held for the remaining 20 counts of murder at a later date. And this is what Brett was talking about last time. This is devastating because each of these women is a devastating story. But here we are talking about how to present the information in a digestible format to the jury. And the women really do become a number. But the sheer volume of devastation he has caused is Truly shocking.
- [06:02]
B
And one thing we've talked about before is the trauma that is imposed on jurors. And it's something that I think we just don't think about enough. And I forget what case we talked about it in, but it is really difficult to be a juror on a case like this. I mean, think about this. If you are on a trial where six different people are murdered, think of the photographs you're going to see. Think of the evidence you're going to hear, particularly in a case like this, which is so incredibly gruesome as you're going to hear. I mean, you're an ordinary person coming off the street and all of a sudden, like, you have to face this stuff. And I could imagine that was part of it, that just six is bad enough. But man, 26, going through each one of those people, how they died, the evidence of their death, their remains, just horrific. So an underappreciated thing that I think we should remember is just jury duty is truly a public service, because some of the things you have to see if you serve in a case like this, you will never forget.
- [07:09]
C
So even though the charging goes back to 2005, it's not until January 22, 2007, that Picton's murder trial begins. He's being tried for the murders of Serena abbotsway, Mona Wilson, Andrea, sometimes listed as Angela Josbury, Brenda Wolf, Georgina Papen and Marnie Frey. Now, the Crown delivered opening statements and detailed the graphic nature of these crimes. They played Pickton's jailhouse confession, where he states that he killed 49 women and was disappointed he didn't make it to an even 50. The next few months are filled with testimony, guys, months of testimony filled with testimony from various witnesses, investigators and experts. And the human remains and other evidence found on the farm are discussed in length. The autopsy photos of the women's partial remains were shown, after which a recess was called when several jurors became visibly shaken. Because, like we said, this is one of the most horrific, horrific serial murders in history. Picton's former friend, Lynne Ellingson, delivers her damning testimony that she claims she saw a woman's body hanging from a chain in Picton's barn.
- [08:27]
B
Yeah, and you know, her testimony is shocking, but it's also believable because of how the remains are found. I mean, it seems like Pickton, he murdered these people and then essentially he butchered their body to eliminate those remains. We talked about this some last time. The rendering plant, the fact that apparently some of this may have even made it into the food stream. He would dump some of it into the water. He would feed some of it to animals. I mean, this was a sophisticated operation in some ways. Granted, there were many failures on the part of the police in this case, but I don't know that you necessarily get away with 49 murders if you're not also doing something pretty sophisticated. The fact that none of the bodies were found, remember, that was one of the reasons the police never took this seriously. It's not like they were finding all these bodies and. And this was like a Green river situation or a Ted Bundy situation, where you're finding bodies and you're like, oh, we got something going on here. That wasn't happening because he was eliminating the remains, though not entirely, as we're going to see later. So on August 13, 2007, after seven months, seven months of this kind of testimony, I mean, just psychological torture for everyone involved. The prosecution rest. And they had called a total of 98 witnesses. And I'll just say this, Canada doesn't have the death penalty, but this is another circumstance where, man, wouldn't it be nice to use that as a bargaining chip? Because if you did, this could have been avoided. He could have pled guilty. We don't have the trial, we don't have all this trauma. We don't have all this going on. But honestly, he doesn't have much to lose, as you're going to see later. So, on September 4, his lawyers begin their defense, and they put together a pretty thoroughgoing defense. They begin by attacking the credibility of Ellingson. She is one of the few eyewitnesses in this case, and there's a lot of circumstantial evidence in this case that is pretty damning. But she is the direct witness who says she saw this terrible thing. And they also point out, look, yeah, it is really bad that all of this was found on the farm, but there were so many people who came to the property, and they had virtually unlimited access to the property because of all these parties, because this was essentially a rave every night. And they're trying to say, hey, this could have been someone else who committed these atrocities. They also put on experts to attempt to refute various pieces of evidence introduced by the Crown, including some blood stain evidence that tied Picton to the crime. They also noted a few things that are kind of interesting. So, obviously, there was a lot of evidence, but a lot of it did not have Pickton's fingerprints on it, DNA on it or anything. But even though they didn't have Robert Pickton's. They did have David, his brother's. His brother's fingerprints were found in various areas where evidence was discovered. So there was also this sort of indication of, hey, maybe you got the wrong brother. Now there's some problems here. Robert's own words are definitely something that come back to haunt him. He bragged about this, he bragged about the number of people he killed, a lot of damning evidence. But once again, they're just trying to raise some doubt about what's going on here. So they present a good month long case. They actually take about seven weeks to present their case. And they call 30 witnesses. And that is a ton of witnesses. You know, I would say probably 50% of the time, defense attorneys don't call any witnesses. They basically say, look, we don't have to call anybody because it was the prosecution's job to prove the case. They didn't prove it, we don't do anything. And that's sort of their approach. And usually when it's particularly damning case, they'll take that approach. Or if it's a very weak case. I mean, if it's a weak case, that can be a pretty powerful rhetorical point. But even if you do call witnesses, you don't normally call 30, but they called 30. I think part of that is because the prosecution called so many. And that's sort of the other side of the coin. You want to try and match the intensity of the case. Like, oh, the prosecution's called a bunch of witnesses. Well, we got a bunch of witnesses too. And if they got 98 and we got 30, there's got to be doubt somewhere because that's a lot of people to have to bring in to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt. So in November, the closing arguments begin. The defense, they go first, which is interesting. You know, it's just different in all sorts of places. It's like this in Massachusetts. The defense goes first and they're sort of attacking the credibility of the Crown's witnesses. They're pointing out where the evidence is lacking. They're like doing a pretty good job, right, of trying to put this all together. He had good attorneys, he had good representation. I don't think anybody would say that Robert Pickton had ineffective counsel. And they were able to link some of his friends to some of the victims and say, look, some of his friends knew them. Maybe they did it and they just wanted to use the property as a dumping ground. The number really hurts, though. Like, if it were one person, that'd Be one thing, say, oh, there's so many people on the property. But I mean, unless this is like the Lincoln park of Canada, like this is a lot of dead people to be found at one place for it to be unrelated to the owners. But the prosecution, they're driving home the point of the confession. The defense tried to say, look, he's just parroting the, the police officer, you can listen to it for yourself. And they say, look, yeah, some of our witnesses are unsavory, they got problems, but guess what, that's exactly what you normally see in a trial. It doesn't mean they're unreliable. And they say, look, Robert Pickton, he is not some dim witted guy. He is smarter than he lets on and he's exactly the kind of person who could have planned and executed this kind of crime.
- [14:38]
C
This is amazing. Most of the closing arguments we've seen, we've watched a few with you guys and talked about them in real time. They usually happen in a day. Not so here. The case did go on for many months, but with the closing arguments starting on November 19, they went for basically a week. The closing arguments ended on November 26, 2007. And then a few days later, November 30, the jury begins deliberations. They deliberate for over a week. They go home, they come back. They go home and come back. We've always said that if you have a fast verdict, that tends to be good for the prosecution. This was a very lengthy trial. There are six different women who are victims that you have to consider all the individual evidence for. So I'm not surprised. It took them a long time. But when jury deliberations ended on December 9, the jury foreman stood up and announced that Pickton was not guilty. First degree murder. As you can imagine, the courtroom erupted in disbelief. There were people who screamed, relatives who couldn't believe what they were hearing. It was a very tense situation because when they heard that, everyone was afraid this mass murderer was about to walk free and go commit his 50th murder like he wanted to do and said he was going to do on these jailhouse calls. However, the jury did find Pickton guilty on six counts of second degree murder.
- [16:06]
B
And look, I don't know the laws of Canada, maybe some Canadian barrister can write in, but I gotta tell you, you know, we're always laying it out for juries, defending juries, talking about how juries are great, you can trust juries. And then you see verdicts like this and you're like, so what exactly do you think happened? Like you think he killed him and tripped? Yeah, like it just. Exactly. They fell into the meat processor or something. But it was. He created a really dangerous situation, or he, you know, was like slinging his chainsaw around in random directions and just happened to kill somebody. But it was really reckless disregard for human life. So second degree murder, I mean, what is the.
- [16:55]
C
Fell into the rendering plant, you know.
- [16:58]
B
Or he invited all six over and he didn't intend to kill him, but things just went wrong and so he did. That didn't happen six times.
- [17:08]
C
So clearly this is what's confusing about this verdict. They clearly think he's responsible for the murders. It's not like there was reasonable doubt of whether it was him or his friends or his brother. They're holding him responsible for the murders. So it's the manner in which they died, which, the way they're left leaves no doubt that he intended to kill them and tried to dispose of them.
- [17:30]
B
And look, this is a significant distinction because they don't have the death penalty. But first degree murder would have been life without parole. But now it's not like now there's a situation in which he could get out.
- [17:49]
C
So on December 11, the British Columbia Supreme Court judge James Williams sentences picked into life in prison, serving six life prison sentences concurrently with no eligibility for parole for the maximum of 25 years for what he did. Remember, this is but six of the potentially 49 murders that he committed, at least 27 that are linked to him. And. And that's not the end. Come the next month, January 9th, Pickton's defense team, he has a very good defense team. They begin their appeal process for a new trial because they claim that Justice James Williams made a mistake when he delivered instructions to the jury.
- [18:30]
B
Yeah, and a few things to note here. So he's been in prison since 2002. He's serving all that time. Essentially he got 25 years for this. Essentially, that's what he got. Because with the way it works, I mean, he won't necessarily get out on parole, but he's up for parole in 25 years. And because they're served concurrently, it's day for day. Right. So he's serving one day for all six murders and then he could potentially get out. So this is a. It's a rough situation. And you can imagine if you're the family, you're pretty concerned and you're having this new appeal, and it seems like it came pretty close to succeeding. But his conviction was upheld in a 2:1 ruling. So two of the three judges ruled that the judge did err in his final instructions to the jury, but decided those were essentially harmless. They were not significant enough to result in a new trial. The other judge disagreed and said, no, this was an error and it should result in a new trial. This is not a great ruling for the prosecution because you have three judges who agree, yeah, he screwed up. That's a very powerful position. Now for the defense going into their next appeal, which they're gonna have considering, say, look, they all agreed he screwed up. They just disagreed on whether or not this was significant enough for a new trial. That's a pretty big step that they've already gotten to. And so, of course, they announce they are going to be appealing to the Supreme Court of Canada asking for a new trial. Now, while all this is going on, there are some consequences for what happened in this case. As we talked about last time, this case was screwed up from the beginning. There were indications that women were going missing for years, that there were indications that Pickton was involved. And the police either had no interest of investigating or felt like they couldn't. And it just felt like, you then find out this person killed 49 people right under your nose. There's going to be some investigation. So the provincial government establishes an inquiry and begins to look into this and how it was handled by authorities. In December of 2012, the Missing Women Commission of Inquiry issues its final report titled Forsaken, which is not a great title if you're one of the police officers who's going to be talked about in this inquiry. And they note blatant failures by the police, including inept criminal investigative work compounded by police and societal prejudice against sex workers and indigenous people. And that this had led to a tragedy of epic proportions. And I think never were true words spoken than that. So the inquiry actually includes 63 recommendations, including the creation of a greater Vancouver Regional Police Force to allow for more effective, less fragmented police cooperation. It also called for more funding for emergency shelters for women and for compensation for the children of the women who. Who went missing and were murdered. And following this report, the Vancouver Police Department did implement several policy and procedural changes, and the missing persons unit was made a regular part of the police department. Investigations were now required to begin without delay. No more of this. Come back in a few days and tell us if they came back. Family members are required to be kept, advised regularly and. And consulted before the release of information, and the case file is kept open until a missing person is located. So, as we often say, these cases are terrible tragedies. But the one thing is sometimes when you have a tragedy of this proportion, you do get some positive change. So my hope is that out of this there are people whose lives have been saved, whose cases have been solved, criminals who've been taken off the street because of reforms that came from the Pickton case.
- [22:47]
C
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- [26:36]
B
And it seems like there's a significant number of his victims who we don't even know who they are. So there's a coda to this case, and we'll get to that in a second. But before we do that, we do want to talk about the victims in this case, who they were and some of the evidence that was used against Pickton to convict him for their crimes. Because as we said, there are people out there who still sort of doubt whether or not it was him, maybe it was his brother, maybe he was railroaded, etc. Etc. So I think it's good to at least go through and talk about some of this because it's just simply not true that there's no significant evidence against Robert Pickton. Let's talk with Brenda Wolf. So Brenda was born October 20, 1968. She was from Lethbridge, Alberta. Now, little is known about how she ended up in Vancouver's east side. We know that Brenda, she had struggled with drug addiction, but at the time of her disappearance, it seemed like she'd actually turned her life around. And she was working as a waitress and even as a bouncer, so somebody who could kind of take care of herself. And it's not believed that Brenda was a sex worker. And she was last seen on March 5, 1999. But however, she came into contact with Robert Pickton. We know that he is the person who murdered her. So first of all, what remained of her body was found at the piggery on the property. In fact, her jawbone was found in a debris pile. Her DNA was found on a leather jacket in Picton's bedroom, and her DNA was found on the key to a pair of handcuffs located in the workshop on the farm.
- [28:27]
C
So that was Brenda Wolf. Serena Abbotsway was born on August 20, 1971. And she was born into a difficult situation. She had fetal alcohol syndrome, and both of her parents died when she was very young. At the age of four, she was taken in by loving foster parents who she stayed with until she was 17 years old. But unfortunately for Serena, she had a violent streak, which resulted in her being placed in a group home, where she was introduced to drugs. Now, she was working as a sex worker at the time of her disappearance and was known as an activist in her community, Often speaking at rallies when sex workers began disappearing at an alarming rate in Vancouver throughout the 80s and 90s. And that's incredibly devastating. She was speaking out against the exact situation that she became a victim to. She was last seen in July of 2001, and she was 29 years old. Now, the evidence linking Picton to Serena, her hands, head, and feet were all found in a bucket in one of the workshop's freezers on the Picton farm. Her DNA was also found in a bucket with another victim's remains. Her blood was found on a ski bag in Picton's office, as well as her DNA on two syringes in the bag. Finally, her inhaler, if you remember, that was a key piece of evidence that was uncovered in that search, was found on the property, as well as documents addressed to her. I mean, this is horrific. She was clearly taken apart. The syringes, who knows what he injected her with, but we have some ideas. It was a very horrific torture that she went through before she met her end.
- [30:13]
B
So then there's Mona Wilson, and these are the women that he was convicted of murdering. So then there's Mona Wilson. Mona was a First nations woman. She was born on a reservation in Alberta, and she lived in a treatment center as a young child, but was removed from the center when she was found badly beaten. So, once again, you know, the tragedy of these women's lives began very early on. At the age of eight, she moved in with a foster family. And this was the first time that things went well for her. They loved her dearly, and she stayed with the family until she was 14. But unfortunately, the thing about foster, it's temporary. And she was moved to a new foster home. And unlike the first one, the second one, she did not have a positive experience. And by the age of 16, she was living on her own in Vancouver, and she was struggling with a growing heroin addiction. She was working as a sex worker at the time of her disappearance in December 2001. And she was 26 years old when she Vanished. Much like Serena, her head, hands and feet were found in a bucket at the farm. And her DNA was also found on a sex toy in the laundry room and in blood stains on a mattress and the walls of a motorhome on the property. So, just once again, as gruesome a crime as you can imagine.
- [31:45]
C
Then there's Marnie Frey. Marnie was born to a loving and supportive family, but her life took a turn when she unexpectedly fell pregnant at age 18. After she gave birth to her daughter, she was introduced to the world of drugs and began working as a sex worker in Vancouver to support her habit. Despite these struggles, she stayed in frequent contact with her family. She called home at least daily to check on her daughter. And Marnie was last seen in August of 1997, but she made her last call in September of 1999. Now, her jawbone was found outside of the slaughterhouse on the Picton farm.
- [32:25]
B
And you can see how difficult a situation like that makes it for the police. So she's very transient. She doesn't have very solid connections. I mean, she has her daughter, but she's last seen by anyone who knows her in 1997, but still making phone calls in 1999. Hard to say exactly when she disappeared. And that makes that crime very difficult to solve. Not that the police really put that much effort into it. So then there is Georgina Pappin. Georgina was born March 11, 1964. She was one of nine children, and she and her siblings were placed into foster care at a very young, young age. And she lived in dozens of foster homes, and she never had an established home or family. Now, she was also a First nations woman, and she was the mother to seven children herself. But she had also struggled with an addiction to drugs, and she had been in and out of prison and had actually lost custody of her children by the time of her disappearance. And she disappeared in March of 1999. She actually called her daughter and told her that she didn't find feel well and that she would be checking into a local care facility. She was 34 at the time, and no one ever heard from her again. Her hand bones were found buried under a platform in the slaughterhouse on the Picton farm.
- [33:54]
C
The fact that this is all we're finding of them, I mean, is just really, really devastating and also shows how sophisticated Picton was. And then there's Andrea Josbury. Andrea did not have the best home life from the very beginning. She grew up among alcoholism, physical and mental abuse. At 16 years old, Andrea's boyfriend convinced her to move with him to Vancouver. Her boyfriend was a drug dealer who got her addicted to the drugs he sold, and she ended up working as a sex worker to support that habit. She had a daughter and several siblings who loved her and remember her as a loving person with a huge smile. And she was last seen in June of 2001, and she was only 21 years old. Andrea's head, hands and feet were found in a bucket in one of the freezers in the workshop. In addition, her DNA was found on a ring and earring in the slaughterhouse and on a jacket and boots in Picton's bedroom. Her DNA was also found on the bathroom wall and a pillowcase in the laundry room.
- [35:00]
B
And this goes. We talked about this last time, just how thorough the police were once they started this investigation. Once they got on that farm, they did a very good job. And the amount of DNA they processed was incredible. And that's why they're able to find all this DNA in all these different places, because basically they swabbed that whole place and discovered, unfortunately, a lot of DNA of a lot of women who've disappeared. Now, those are the women he was convicted of killing. We're going to go through 20 additional murder charges that he had. As we said, those were stayed and he was never prosecuted for them. And we're just going to very briefly tell you who these people were when they were last seen, and what evidence was found relevant to them. So one is Diana Melnick. She was last seen on December 22, 1995. And her DNA was found on the walls of a workshop freezer and on plastic sheet liners inside. Tanya Hollick. She was last seen October 29, 1996. And her DNA was also found on the walls of the workshop freezer. And this is. I think you can see why they picked some of the ones they did.
- [36:14]
C
Right?
- [36:15]
B
I mean, they're finding actual body parts for most of these women here. You're just seeing, like, the last trace of them, DNA on a wall, and that's all you're seeing. So, you know they were there and you know what happened to them. But the proof there is a little bit more thin. Kara Ellis was last seen January 1997. Her DNA was on Pickton's jacket. A prayer card also had her DNA on it. There were some medical appointment slips and a WristWatch bearing Pickton's DNA. All these were found on a slaughterhouse shelf. So you sort of have all these different objects, some of which belong to her. Then you have some of his DNA and Some of her DNA very close to each other. And her DNA was also found on those plastic sheet liners in that workshop freezer. And it makes you wonder if either he was placing body parts in this freezer until he could ship them somewhere else, or if, in fact, maybe he was even dismembering people on this plastic in this area. Then there's Andrea Borehaven. She disappeared March 10, 1997. Her DNA was found on Picton's boot. DNA was found on one earring in a plastic grocery bag filled with other jewelry. So just imagine that it's a plastic grocery bag they find on this property filled with women's jewelry. And it wasn't because he was robbing jewelry stores.
- [37:46]
C
Note that hers is one earring. Think about a grocery bag and how much jewelry can fit in there, how many women it came from.
- [37:54]
B
And this bag was found hidden in a floor vent in Picton's kitchen. So he knew exactly what he was doing. He was collecting this, and then he would hide it. Sherry Irving. She was last seen on March 18, 1997. Her DNA was also found on the walls of that workshop freezer. Helen May Hallmark was last seen on June 15, 1997. And DNA from her and Picton were found in a blood spatter on the bedroom closet door. And there was also DNA on a cowboy hat of hers in Picton's bedroom closet. So we got a lot of transfer going on here as well. Cynthia Felix was last seen December 26, 1997. And her DNA was found in nine packages of ground pork in the workshop freezer. And her DNA was found on those plastic sheet liners in the freezer as well.
- [38:56]
C
The list continues. Carrie Koski was last seen on January 2, 1998. And her DNA was on a pair of earrings in that plastic grocery bag that was filled with other jewelry that was hidden in that floor vent in Picton's cat kitchen. Inga hall was last seen on February 26, 1998. Her DNA was found also in nine packages of ground pork in the workshop freezer. DNA was on the plastic sheet liners and in the walls of the workshop freezer. The police also found clumps of her hair in a plastic bag on a shelf in the slaughterhouse. The things that he ends up keeping is. And part of it is there's so many bodies to hide. It may not be that he has an obsession with the clumps of hair. It's just there's so much. And if you can probably tell, multiple women's DNA are going to be Found in this ground pork. In other words, he had lots of women at one time. You can see this timeline. We don't even have all 49 women, as he claims that he killed. He is murdering these women at a massive clip where he can't dispose of them fast enough. And so he's disposing of them in groups at a time, which is why we're seeing their DNA in multiple places at the same time. Not because they were killed together, but because he killed at such a fast clip. Sarah DeVries was last seen on April 13, 1998. Now, she had a white purse in the loft of the mechanical shop that contained lipsticks with her DNA on it. And there was a used condom with Picton's DNA. Now, the bank card of a man she ripped off just before her disappearance was also in the loft. Angela Hardeen was last seen on November 20, 1998. Her DNA was found on the walls of the workshop freezer.
- [40:48]
B
So Then there's Jacqueline McDonnell, last seen January 21, 1999. Her blood and Pickton's DNA were found on handcuffs in the headboard of Pickton's bed. The DNA was also found on an earring in a cardboard box in Picton's bed, bedroom closet. So, once again, you get the bag of jewelry underneath the kitchen floor, then he's got a cardboard box where he's also keeping some jewelry in his closet. Tiffany Drew, August 20, 1999. Her DNA was found on a syringe which was filled with windshield wiper fluid. And this was found in an entertainment center in Pickton's office. Remember, Pickton talked about one of the ways he would kill people was by injecting them with antifreeze. And I guess in this case, windshield wiper fluid. I mean, just horrendous. Horrendous crimes. Wendy Crawford was last seen November 24, 1999. Of her, they found a partial leg bone which had been whittled down. So, you know, whittling, like you whittle wood, I guess you can whittle bones as well. Well, they found this. It's a little unclear what it means, that it had been whittled. Whether he did that on purpose, if that was part of the removal process, or if he was doing that in some sort of weird hobby. I don't know. And this was found in a sewage cistern outside the slaughterhouse. Then there was Jennifer Lynn Ferminger. She was last seen December 27, 1999. Her blood was on a brown leather jacket in Picton's office. It was Also on a hooded pullover in the laundry room. And a watch on the shelf in the slaughterhouse. There was also blood on three spots, including the handguard and cord of an electric reciprocating saw in the slaughterhouse. So once again, he is dismembering these women. And they're finding, in this case, some DNA on one of the saws that he used. And there was also DNA on a black T shirt and a debris pile in the former piggery. Then there was Deborah Lynn Jones. December 21, 2000. Her blood was found in a black Eddie Bauer purse and a broken crack pipe that was found at the foot of Picton's bed. I mean, I guess he'd been getting away with it for so long, it's not like he made any effort whatsoever to clean a lot.
- [43:25]
C
He did not clean. I was going to say those cleaners did not come through his house.
- [43:28]
B
No, they did not. And I guess, you know, it was a developing time with DNA and everything. He probably figured, I'm getting rid of the bodies, I'm good. But obviously with DNA technology, they're able to find a lot of stuff and attach it to him. Plus, as we've said before, blood. I mean, it really does get everywhere. It's hard even if you were trying to clean it up. The keys attached to the purse were smeared with her blood and opened a Surrey hotel room that had been rented by her at the time of her disappearance.
- [43:59]
C
So the list continues. Patricia Rose Johnson was last seen on February 27, 2001. Her blood was on some plywood in the slaughterhouse. And there was also her DNA on a sex toy in Picton's bedroom. Now, there was DNA from her on a syringe outside of the trailer. And by the way, you can see his methods through all of this DNA that we're finding, right? I know that he wasn't tried for all these things, but, like, if the defense is, my friend just dumped, you know, used my place as a dumping ground, you're seeing these repeated things. They're all in his bedroom. He uses the saw, he uses the same liner, the same workshop freezer. He keeps their earrings and their jewelry hidden in the same bag. He uses, you know, the same sex toys on them. He uses the same syringes on them. I mean, you begin to see these patterns. And I think it's worth noting all of this for the people who are like, there's not evidence that he did this. They're just pinning it on some weird guy who lives on a pig farm. These are all patterns that the police are looking for. These are not 20 random murders, 27 random murders. You see a very clear pattern all tied to his actions as well. And his zone. We're not talking about across acres and acres. There are concentrated places where we're seeing all this evidence. Then there's Heather Bottomley. She was last seen on March 21, 2001. Her DNA is inside the bucket with Joe's Berry's remains in that workshop freezer. And her DNA is on a broken black necklace in the slaughterhouse. Four blood stains on the fabric in the mattress of Picton's bed were also linked to her. Now, Picton's DNA was also on the same cloth and her identification and notebook were on a table next to the TV in Picton's bedroom. All right, guys, it is starting to be holiday season, which means I get to break out some of my favorite outfits. But truthfully, after having four kids, sometimes I just feel a little bit more confident when I use Honeylove. 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They also have undie bundles which make the perfect stocking stuffer. Treat yourself or someone you love to Honey Love this holiday season and right now you can save 20%@honeylove.com prosecutors just use our exclusive link honeylove.com prosecutors to grab your discount. After you order, they'll ask you where you heard about Honey Love. So please support our show and let them know we sent you. Celebrate the season feeling confident and comfortable with Honey Love. I just imagine these women coming in whether they're there for like the rave that night, they have their purse with them, they put them down, they think it's going to be a regular night and they're met with a horrific end. That's kind of what you see, right? Their purses are with them, they still have their hotel keys. They have people they ripped off credit cards and whatnot. And they're all around his room because they probably had sex in there. That's why their DNA is on the mattress. That's why their stuff is right by his TV and his bedside table. Again, this is linking it to him. Not his brother, not his friends, unless he let everyone use his bedroom, which is then difficult to explain why his DNA is mixed in with all of these women as well. Then there's Heather Chinnock. So just like many women before, including Heather Bottomley, who we just talked about, Heather Chinnock's DNA was found inside the bucket, also with Joe's burry's remains in the workshop freezer. She had a distinctive wolf head ring and that was also found in the pig pen. We don't know for sure if it's hers, but it was very distinctive looking and we knew that she wore this ring. Now her DNA was found on some overalls in Picton's bedroom closet. And her DNA was also on a silver bracelet and ring and on a suede jacket in a box under a door, all in the workshop loft. And then there was Diane Rock, who was last seen on October 19, 2001. Her DNA was on the walls of the workshop freezer. Her purse was found in a debris pile in the old piggery and it contained a knotted fluid filled condom with Picton's DNA. There was her DNA on a cigarette butt and a bench seat and a step in the motorhome, as well as her hairs on a Hudson Bay blanket. I don't think he ever did laundry, by the way.
- [49:36]
B
Apparently not. Apparently not.
- [49:38]
C
So in total, the police found DNA of 33 missing women on the Picton farm, which means there may be more. There likely are more than that. And the fact that they were able to find all this DNA when they really are just traces, transfer, mixed in with each other and able to link it to these women. And even though some of them had disappeared many, many years ago, if not a decade earlier, is actually incredible police work.
- [50:09]
B
So one thing I think we can say for certain is that Robert Willie Picton was involved in these murders and committed several of them. But one of the questions that people have often had is was David involved? Remember, his sister moved away, but David stayed and David and Robert worked on the farm. They sold off the land together, they ran Peaky palace together. David's fingerprints are found in a lot of the areas. I think they're found on the bucket, for instance. David, his position obviously has always been that he knew nothing about this. He wasn't involved at all. To the extent his fingerprints were found anywhere, it's because he probably had handled the bucket before it had body parts in it. I would just say this. It is hard to imagine that someone could murder 49 people, dismember them in this way, get rid of the bodies, and you're just oblivious to that. I mean, I know it was a big property, but it wasn't that big. So it makes sense to me that people have raised questions about this. And there is an interesting thing that happened in David's history that I think sort of sheds light on this entire family. So go all the way back to October 16, 1967. So David was out for a joyride in the family's truck. He was 16 and he had just recently got his license. Well, while he's driving around on the truck, Timothy Barrett, who's a local 8th grader, he's walking home, David doesn't seem and he hits him with the truck. David gets out of the truck to see what he hit because he didn't even see what it was. As soon as he realizes that it was a person, he doesn't help. He flees the scene and he goes straight to his parents and he tells his mom what he's done. And she says, well, going to go to the police, we're going to call an ambulance, we're going to get help for this kid, we're going to do the right thing. No, she doesn't say any of that. She says remove all the evidence of the accident from the truck. You clean up the truck, take care of that. She meanwhile goes back to the scene where Timothy is still laying on the side of the road. And what she does is she takes Timothy and she rolls him off the road and into a swampy area and into the water. So by the time she gets back the truck, it's damaged beyond what they can fix on their own. So they go to a nearby Mechanic at around 8:30pm that night, insisting the truck be fixed immediately. The mechanic refuses.
- [52:42]
C
Really takes it to a whole new level of who's going to help you hide a body. But this is the mom doing it for a 16 year old boy. So the next day, after Timothy doesn't return home, Timothy's dad goes out looking for his son, and he finds Timothy's body in the swamp. So when the mechanic heard about this incident, he contacts the police, who obtained a search warrant for the Pickton family farm. The paint on the truck matched the paint on Timothy's body. And the autopsy revealed that Timothy had not actually died in that car accident. He had drowned in two feet of swamp water and likely could have been saved in if they had called the ambulance and brought him to the hospital. Now, Dave was charged with failing to remain at an accident in juvenile court, but no murder charge was brought against him or his mother. Why? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Kind of like the Karen Reed case. Like, John could have been saved if something had been done. He would not have died if he were just on the side of the road is what the autopsy shows.
- [53:47]
B
And I know he's a juvenile. It's 1967. I would like to think that if this happened today, there would have been much more serious consequences. But apparently it was common knowledge what his mother had done. Like, everybody knew that. But I don't know if they just couldn't prove it, if it was more hearsay, you know, maybe he rolled into the water on his own or something. But whatever the case, they never charge her. And you can sort of see, I mean, the combination of all the abuse growing up and then this kind of example.
- [54:21]
C
Talk about, like, your moral compass being shaped by these types of people. There's no. I mean, what do you do when there's an accident, much less when you're the aggressor? Hide it and you'll get away with it.
- [54:34]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's just a very strong message that other lives don't matter. You know, you're free to do what you want to with them. Oh, you hit somebody with a truck. Well, we need to cover that up. Right. Because their life doesn't matter. All that matters is you and protecting you. And I think that, obviously, I don't think you could do the things that Robert Pickton did unless you were also very sick. But it certainly didn't help that this was the example. And honestly, it's the perfect storm. I think you had someone who was predisposed to this kind of stuff, but then all of the horrific things he went through as a child and then seeing this example, it's just not surprising that he ended up doing what he did. So a coda on this case. In February of 2024, Robert Pickton became eligible for parole, and he Was optimistic he would tell people that he thought maybe he would get parole. But on May 19, 2024, only a couple months later, he was attacked by a 51 year old fellow inmate at the Port Cartier institution in Quebec, Canada. That was Martin Charist. And he did not deny what he did. He told authorities that he had repeatedly heard Pickton brag about his crimes and say that if he was released, he wanted to commit some more murders. He's got to get to 50, right? So that was his intention. If he ever got out of prison, he was going to murder someone else. On May 18, Charris heard Pickton saying to another inmate that his great regret from his time at the piggy farm was that he had not eaten one of the children of his victims. So this is on May 18th. On May 19th, Charris follows Pickton into a room where he manages to jam the lock behind him. He then starts to beat him, intent on killing him. So at this point, the police know that this is going on. The jail guards are trying to get into the room. It's locked, they can't quite get in. And so what they do is they actually are able to release gas into the room to subdue Cherris and Cherrist. He realizes his time is short and he's just not able to finish Pickton off. So what he does is he grabs a broom handle and he either takes the broom handle and stabs it into Picton's brain and then breaks it off, or he breaks it and then stabs it into Picton's brain. It's a little unclear to get different reports from different people. And he left the broken broom handle in his head. And Chirrus would tell police, didn't do it for himself, he did it for the victims. That was on May 19. On May 31, 12 days after the attack, Robert Willie Pickton died. He was 74 years old. And of course we would never condone prison violence or justice. Apropos of nothing, I did recently learn that you can't put money into a prisoner's commissary in Canada unless you're a family member or friend. So just noting that, but that's the end.
- [58:01]
C
I'm sorry.
- [58:03]
B
The Robert Pickton case.
- [58:05]
C
I will say for the amount of horror that he committed, whether he said that on May 18 or not, when you see his entire life, the reason we went back to his three year old childhood, when he was forced outside to sleep outside in a chicken coop and scoop water from the spring underneath the chicken coop for water, the reason we Went all the way back is the horrificness of his entire life and his actions. This is not something he outgrows. I fully believe that at 74, there would be additional victims because there had been such deep contortion of anything within his mind and his heart that. That this is not the type of immense disregard for life that you age out of.
- [58:48]
B
Oh, no.
- [58:49]
C
So he continues to be. I don't know, you know, what would have happened with that parole hearing, but I fully believe that his record shows that he would have continued to kill.
- [59:00]
B
Yeah, I think 100%. And Charrist, presumably will get a significant prison sentence because of this. He just pleaded guilty, and this is a very recent thing, but, yeah, I know he was never going to change. And if he had had the opportunity to kill again, he would have done it. Now, I don't think he ever would have been paroled. I don't know why he thought he was going to be paroled. He might. He was probably just talking. I mean, he liked to talk, as we know from the guard thing. Right. When he was talking to the informant who was actually a prison guard, and he was bragging about everything he did. I mean, he liked to talk about it. So I don't have any doubt that he was saying this stuff and that Martin Cherris overheard him and decided to take matters into his own hands. But I don't think he would ever got now. But certainly good riddance to Willie Pickton. You know, whatever happened to him when he was a child. And it was horrific what he became. I mean, it turned him into a monster. And he was a monster of just the highest order. We often say in a lot of these cases, they're not monsters. I mean, normal people commit horrific crimes all the time, and it's sometimes hard to imagine, and you don't really understand why. And you see their life before, and there's no real sign of it, and it's shocking and terrible. This is not one of those cases. And this is someone who, through some combination probably of who they were and what they were turned into, became just.
- [60:29]
C
A horrific person and a note on inevitability or if his childhood in any way excuses what he did. And we don't fully know his brother's role in all of this. It's not in the court of law. We're never gonna know. He may have not had nothing to do with any of this, but I will know. He had a horrific childhood, but he was one of three children. And his brother's DNA is not found on 33 dead women's belongings. And his sister also did not go on to murder 50 people either. So you can have very, very difficult and horrendous. Horrendous childhoods. It does not excuse what this is. It helps explain how humanity can take such a dark turn. But I do not believe that it is inevitable.
- [61:21]
B
No, no, it certainly doesn't excuse it. And like I said, I mean, his sister seems to be a perfectly normal person. Opinions can vary on David. Obviously, when he was 16, he did a terrible thing, but he was also 16. And I mean, I'll say this. There is evidence of David doing good things. You know, he started that charity in, I think in Africa for a certain disease. I mean, maybe he's a better person or maybe he was involved in all this. I don't know. And I don't know that we'll ever know exactly what happened on that farm. But Alice is right. Like, this reminds me. It's kind of like Bone Valley. And we talk about this a lot. The Jeremy Scott case. I mean, Jeremy Scott had a terrible childhood. He was abused. You know, I think his mom ran over him. I can't remember exactly. He got ran over at some point, had a serious head injury, had all sorts of issues. That's all something that's good to know, and it helps inform what happened, but it's not an excuse for what he did, and it does not excuse the terrible things he did. So, like I said, hopefully the one. If there are good things that come out of this case, all of that reform that we saw in the police department has hopefully saved lives. And I think that's the one thing you can say about it. This is such a horrific case in so many ways, and it really highlights that issue that we've talked about before. So many victims, and, like, you can't do justice to these folks. I mean, we spent half this episode talking about the victims and barely touched on them. So many lives just destroyed and shattered and all the people connected to them, the people that loved them, their children, their siblings. And I think it's good to never forget that when you think about these cases, it's just horrendous. So. Oh, that was an uplifting case. Yeah.
- [63:07]
C
Welcome to October Naysayers, People who hate October.
- [63:10]
B
I hope you enjoyed that one. Gonna have to do like a detox. I don't even murder. I don't know what we could do after this.
- [63:18]
C
Watch a Bluey episode is what we need to do.
- [63:20]
B
Exactly. Exactly. The next episode is going to be on Bluey. Bluey. True Crimes episodes. Let us know so we can watch them anyway. Okay, well, let us know what you think about that. I'm sure people will have thoughts. Some of y' all love these serial killer cases. I'm just not.
- [63:37]
C
They make my stomach turn.
- [63:38]
B
Yeah, there's just too much. It's just too much. And it's so inexplicable, you know? I mean, a lot of the cases, even when someone does a horrendous thing, at least it's like, well, they killed that person for money, you know, or they killed that person because they didn't want to get divorced. And that's a terrible thing, but it's also sort of in the common range of human depravity. Right. This is just so far beyond. And it's often that way with serial killers. So we don't do a lot of serial killer cases partially for that reason. But as we said before, if you enjoyed this, if you like serial killer cases, you want to hear more, you can ask for them. I don't know that you're going to get many, but you can give it a shot. Shoot us an email. Prosecutors pod gmail.com Prosecutors pod for all your social media. Join us on the gallery, which is our fan run group on Facebook. There's a lot of discussion of these cases. If you want to watch us record these early, you can do so for as little as $3 a month. If you want to get these episodes after they're edited, but early and ad free, same deal, Patreon's. Basically, you pay three bucks, get everything. So do that. And like I said, if you have a case you want us to cover, let us know about it. We love covering the cases that you guys enjoy. Alice, do you want to do a question? Should we do a question?
- [64:59]
C
We need to do a question.
- [65:00]
B
I feel like, yeah, detox questions. It's just like, I can't, like, look.
- [65:03]
C
At a bucket again. I can't, like, can't eat open my freezer and not think about this. Ground pork. I love ground pork. Like, oh, no.
- [65:10]
B
Sausage.
- [65:11]
C
Love gummy bears. Really bad.
- [65:14]
B
I don't know if I'm cut out for this true crime thing. I mean, I know I've been doing.
- [65:17]
C
It for this kind of true crime.
- [65:19]
B
Goodness gracious.
- [65:20]
C
Being found in packages of ground pork. Oh, my goodness.
- [65:24]
B
Oh, let's see. I need a good. I need a good one. Okay, so Wingnut says, I just finished listening to the Treehouse murder trial where there was a pro se defendant. How do you change your strategies as a prosecutor? When faced with a pro se defendant. I will say this on Legal Briefs, which is our other podcast, we discussed this in greater detail. People representing themselves. If you want a more detailed answer to this question, I would suggest listening to that. But. Okay. Have you ever tried to play chess with someone who's never played chess before? And you would think, well, that's going to be easy. They don't know what they're doing, right? But then all of a sudden, they start doing all this weird stuff, and ponds are in weird places, and the queen's over there on the side, and you're just like, what's going on? You know? And all of a sudden, they're attacking you with their king, and you just don't know what to do. And all your normal strategies are just completely thrown out. It's kind of like that. Like, you don't know what they're going to do. They have no idea what they're doing. They're objecting to stuff that's not objectionable.
- [66:30]
C
And then add to that the person who is like, I don't know, monitoring the game is yelling at you for all of their faults.
- [66:37]
B
Oh, yeah, the judge is getting mad because everything's messed up. And I'll tell you what else the judge did. And we've mentioned this, I think, when we talked about this before.
- [66:44]
C
Perfect analogy, by the way.
- [66:46]
B
Well, thank you. Thank you. So one thing that happens in trials is every question you ask could theoretically be objected to, right? Now, usually those objections are frivolous, and most lawyers won't object to a frivolous question. So, for instance, you're asking a lay witness a question that you know. So in your experience as a police officer, do you know what marijuana smells like? Right. Well, everybody knows. Every lawyer knows that's a perfectly legitimate question. But pro se guy might be like, objection, he's not an expert. He hasn't been qualified as expert. Because they'll do that. They'll just, like, pull that stuff out. And then the judge is like, all right, counsel. He says, you should have qualified him as an expert. What do you say to that? You know, and you're like, well, shoot, now I got to do the whole argument about why it's okay for this lay witness to give this testimony based on their experience without qualifying them as an expert. Like, that's actually.
- [67:42]
C
It's kind of like why it's really difficult to talk to a toddler because their questions can be completely legitimate, Right? Like, this is a real conversation I had with Brittany, two years old today. Why is the sky blue. Oh, it's. Oh. And I started explaining it. Well, then why does the oxygen do that? What is oxygen? What do you breathe? Why do you breathe? What happens when you stop breathing? What makes me go. I mean, right. We've all had these conversations. That's what it's like in the courtroom. You're like, I don't even know how to answer. And begin to answer these questions as they all conflate, and they have nothing to do with the issue at hand.
- [68:19]
B
Alice and I. I may have told this story, too. 500 episodes. He gets all runs together, the prosecutor pro se guy. And there was this one document that he kept trying to get in, and the judge had excluded it because it wasn't relevant. And he would do things like try and introduce a bunch of legitimate documents that he could actually introduce and, like, slide it into the middle so that, you know, maybe thought about that. He'll get it in, and the jury will see it later, and they'll be like, huh? And so, you know, we're, like, flipping through the documents. They're like, your honor, he's got the document in the middle here. And the judge would be like, now, sir, I've ruled on that. You can't introduce that. You know, and it's just. It's just completely all the sort of. It's kind of like all the unwritten rules in baseball that you just don't violate. Well, he doesn't know any of the unwritten rules, right? So he's just doing all this stuff that no lawyer would ever do, but you got to be prepared for it. So, yeah, it's quite different.
- [69:15]
C
I remember watching a pro se object to every question that the prosecution was asking and saying, he's badgering the witness because they were hard questions. 100%, not badgering the witness, but every single question was, objection, badgering the witness, which is not an objection either. It's asked and answered, if you really want the proper objection. But, like, you have this going on with the jury right there, where it's like, I don't know, is he badgering them? And it's like, we're just asking questions. Like, this is literally what happens in the court of law. We ask questions. You may not like the questions, but that itself is not a basis for the objection. So we could go on and on.
- [69:53]
B
It is not fun because they're, like, objecting based on the fringe, on the flat and everything. And you're like.
- [69:59]
C
And the filings. The filings are, like, incoherent, right? Like, I Mean, they can be handwritten, and they quite literally make no sense. Talk about conspiracy theories. You want some good conspiracy theories? They're in these filings as well, and you have to respond to them. That's the thing. Every time something's filed, even if it's a made up motion, there's real motions you can file, but they will make up motions like motion to. I don't like the way you're looking at me. And you're like, that's not a motion. But they've moved the court to do something in. The court in order to rule on it. Wants to hear from both sides. Counsel, I need you to respond to this. And you're like, what am I really responding to this crayon covered motion that's made up. And the answer is yes.
- [70:38]
B
And what's funny, if a lawyer filed that, the judge just deny it. Yeah. And sanction them. It wouldn't make us respond to it. But whenever it's a pro se, it's like, well, you know, you end up doing their job. You're like, well, your honor, I know he styled it as a motion for a declaration of innocence, but I think really, this is a habeas corpus petition under 2255. And, you know, if you look at it sideways in the mirror, then he's making this argument, and so maybe we should address that. And it's just like, why am I doing this? Like, I don't want to do this. But the child of the prosecutor. We do justice. I'm just trying to win. So sometimes you even have to help out the other side. All right, well, this has been fun. I mean, not really, but it's always good to spend time with Alice. And with you guys, we will try and do something. I mean, it's gonna be true crime, so it's not exactly gonna be uplifting. We'll try to do something a little bit less dark.
- [71:32]
C
This is beyond dark.
- [71:34]
B
Yeah. Maybe only one person can die in the story we do next week. I haven't decided what we're doing yet, but I'll try and find something. Maybe aliens will be involved. I don't know. We'll figure something out. We'll figure something out, but. All right, you guys know the drill. Let us know what you think. We'll be back next week with an uplifting tale. With alien abductions, maybe. But until then, I'm Brett.
- [71:59]
C
And I'm Alice.
- [72:00]
B
And we are the prosecutor.
- [72:22]
C
There we go.
- [72:23]
B
So AAM's off solving some famous case, like, literally speak.
- [72:28]
C
Isn't that awesome.
- [72:29]
B
So they had to reschedule.
- [72:30]
C
You can't make that up. That's so cool. That's the best reason. It can't stop.
- [72:33]
B
They said they would come on and talk about it once it's public.
- [72:36]
C
All right. It's jumping, isn't it? Yeah. I don't know.
- [72:42]
B
It's not, but I. I know it's not. But that would be cool if it was. It would be.
- [72:50]
C
All right.
- [72:51]
B
Gotcha. Don't be so negative, Nelly. So we get to do some more piggy stuff. That's great, right?
- [73:58]
C
I can't tell. I can't tell if it's him frozen or me frozen. You guys can hear me? You just let me know if you can hear me. Oh, thank you. You can hear me. I froze for a second because I was like, am I frozen? Is he frozen? Okay, well. Oh, he just said his Internet went broken. Sam.
- [74:59]
B
This October, fear is free on Pluto tv. With horror movie collections from Paranormal Activity, the Ring.
- [75:07]
C
You will die in seven days.
- [75:09]
B
Scream. And from dusk till dawn. This is my kind of place. And don't miss the man made nightmares in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein or the world ending chaos in 28 days later.
- [75:20]
C
Something in the blood.
- [75:22]
B
All the scares, all for free. Pluto TV stream now pay never.