337. Jodi Huisentruit Part 2

Summary

The Prosecutors – Episode 337: Jodi Huisentruit Part 2

Podcast: The Prosecutors
Hosts: Brett and Alice
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Brett and Alice continue their deep-dive analysis of the 1995 disappearance of Jodi Huisentruit, a beloved local news anchor from Mason City, Iowa. The hosts meticulously walk listeners through the investigation’s timeline and the enduring mystery, assessing key suspects, overlooked details, and the frustrating lack of resolution. They combine their prosecutorial insight with candid discussion and theorizing, highlighting both procedural strengths and dead ends that have defined this decades-long cold case.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Case Recap and Timeline Progression

• Jodi Huisentruit was a young news anchor who vanished on June 27, 1995, on her way from her apartment to work. Evidence suggested abduction rather than a voluntary disappearance.
• Despite immediate police response and a detailed crime scene, 30 years later, the case remains unsolved.

Major Timeline Updates:

• July 6, 1995: Jodi took a self-defense class; confided to the instructor about a recent incident that made her uncomfortable. Indicative she felt threatened prior to her abduction.
  “She told him that there had been an incident a few months before that she wasn’t ‘comfortable with, whatever that means.’” — Brett (07:13)
• July 25, 1995: Nearly a month missing, police had received over 700 tips and interviewed around 800 people but had no solid leads.
• September 23, 1995: Case featured on America’s Most Wanted, generating 60 new tips.
  “When America’s Most Wanted was on, everyone was watching.” — Alice (11:19)
• February 18, 1996: Featured on Unsolved Mysteries, generating another 97 tips; still no significant progress.

2. Community Response and Investigation Efforts

• Jodi’s disappearance had significant local impact—a candlelight vigil drew 250 people.
• Family hired a PI, increased reward (eventually to $100,000), and organized mass searches, all unsuccessful.
• Police and family worked tirelessly; case drew national attention but produced little concrete movement.

3. Physical Evidence and Crime Scene Discussion

The Car and Abduction Details

• Car keys found slightly bent near Jodi’s vehicle; likely result of a sudden, forced attack as she approached her passenger side door, where she usually placed her things.
• Drag marks at the scene suggest Jodi was incapacitated quickly (knocked out, strangled, or otherwise subdued), not killed immediately—no blood was found.
  • The fact she was dragged led Alice to note the personal, visceral nature of the attack:
    “The dragging almost seems like an extra level of cruelty... incredibly dehumanizing to pull someone.” (23:30)

The Mysterious White Van

• Witnesses reported a suspicious white van parked near the scene and provided a sketch of a man—though the sketch has never been released publically.
• The van’s color (versus suspects who owned blue or white vans) complicates eyewitness reliability.

The Toilet Seat Debate

• Police noted Jodi’s toilet seat was found up, sparking debate among online sleuths (was a man visiting her the night before?).
  • Brett and Alice discuss whether this is significant:

    “I think it’s unlikely this is a cleaning thing.” — Brett (39:56) “I typically—even when I throw up—throw up with the seat down, not lift it up.” — Alice (35:44)

• Two wine glasses (one with lipstick, one without) were left out; possible indication of a visitor, though could be from a previous day.

  “I think someone else was with her that night. But I don’t necessarily know that the toilet seat is relevant. I’m more convinced by the wine glasses.” — Brett (45:50)

The Beer Cans and Possible Stalker

• Reports circulated about Bud Light “Tall Boy” cans in Jodi’s apartment, but police dispute this. Brett notes police can be unreliable in what info they share on documentaries.
• Multiple Coors Light cans piled up near Jodi’s parking spot in the week before her abduction. Could indicate a stalker monitoring her, or may be coincidental.
• Alice points out Jodi’s windows were often left open, making her an easier target for a peeping stalker.

Delay in Attack

• Alice observes the attacker must have waited for hours—Jodi left significantly later than usual on the day she vanished. Odd for a stalker who appeared to know her schedule so well.

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Theories and Suspects

John Van Sise

• Friend of Jodi, named his boat after her, last to see her alive by his own admission, and called the station looking for her before anyone else realized she was missing.
• Alibi from a morning walking buddy but has inconsistencies about when/where he saw Jodi.
  • Alice: “He willingly did give a lot of information. I think his exact whereabouts were lied about more because of probably the fact that they had something more than just friendship going on.” (65:43)
  • Brett speculates Jodi and John spent time together that night, perhaps explaining the wine glasses and toilet seat, but doesn’t believe he perpetrated the crime:
    “He lied...not because he killed her, but because he had something to hide.” (64:03)

Brad Millerburn

• Ex-husband of Jodi’s friend, owned a white van, alleged to have developed an unhealthy interest in Jodi, and had recently finalized a divorce—the timing lines up.
• His ex-wife Patty provided most of the information implicating him. He gave DNA and took a polygraph; nothing has linked him yet.
• Brett: “Brad’s a pretty good suspect. There’s a lot of smoke there, right?” (69:26)

Tony Jackson

• Convicted serial rapist living nearby at the time; “promising” lead revolved around cryptic rap lyrics, but ultimately no evidence connected him to Jodi.
  • “If you see the documentary, he is the most convincing person you’ll ever see.” — Brett (71:52)

Christopher Rayvack

• Linked to two other murders, some coincidental geographic connections, but timing and logistics don’t quite fit.

Unknown Stalker

• Jodi received harassing phone calls, had an alarming encounter with a man in a white truck, and considered changing her number.
• Brett and Alice both lean strongly to the theory that her abductor was an obsessed stalker:
  • “Someone became obsessed with her...they had been scoping out her place. They had learned her movements.” — Brett (77:28)
  • Alice: “He had decided what he was going to do even if it was an hour and a half late. He knew her actions so well that he was going to attack her.” (78:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the personal nature of the crime:
  “The dragging almost seems like an extra level of cruelty... it’s incredibly dehumanizing to pull someone. It’s also very confident.” — Alice (23:30)
• On the dead-end leads:
  “This case is frustrating. You have all these tiny bits of information, and you’re trying to grab onto them and make them work to tell a story in some way, but there’s not quite enough to be able to do it.” — Brett (48:14)
• On the stalker theory:
  “He had decided what he was going to do even if it was an hour and a half late. He knew her actions so well that he was going to attack her... It just seems so inflamed with passion and anger directed at her when she didn’t do anything at 4:30 in the morning except be late.” — Alice (78:39)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [07:13] – Jodi’s martial arts class and reports of earlier harassment
• [11:19] – National TV coverage: America’s Most Wanted and Unsolved Mysteries
• [19:11] – Evidence: Car keys, apartments, crime scene layout
• [23:30] – Discussion: Nature of dragging, personal vs. opportunistic attacks
• [32:09] – White van sightings, unreleased suspect sketch
• [35:44] – Toilet seat, wine glasses, domestic evidence debate
• [47:27] – Stalker behavior, police sensitivity to harassment
• [48:09] – Beer cans and (possible) physical surveillance
• [51:43] – Beer can theory and difficulties with circumstantial evidence
• [53:26] – Abductor’s unusual wait time and planning implications
• [55:09] – Theories: Competitor, neighbor, John Van Sise, and others dissected
• [69:26] – Suspect rundown: Brad Millerburn, Tony Jackson, Christopher Rayvack
• [77:28] – Hosts’ concluding theories
• [84:12] – Final thoughts: fear for women, plea for tips, hope for justice

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Conclusion: Hosts' Final Thoughts

• Both Brett and Alice believe Jodi knew or suspected she was being targeted; John Van Sise may have been present the night before, but neither host thinks he is the killer.
• The overwhelming likelihood is that an obsessed stalker was responsible, leveraging Jodi’s public presence and accessibility.
• They stress the vital need for new tips—reminding listeners that even old or previously reported information might help law enforcement see the case in a new light.
  • “If you know anything, even if you shared a tip before, maybe just share it again. Fresh ears may hear it differently.” — Brett (18:22)
• Alice closes with an empathetic reminder of the enduring sense of fear this type of crime creates, especially for women:
  “There’s a reason that I run to my car even from, like, the grocery store... for all women’s sake and especially for Jodi’s sake, I do hope that this case is brought to justice soon.” (84:12)

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Contact & Call to Action

• If you have any possible information, contact the Mason City Police at 641-421-3636.
• Listeners may also submit tips anonymously through the podcast team.

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For true crime aficionados and new listeners alike, this episode offers a thorough and empathetic breakdown of a haunting, unresolved case that still echoes through the true crime community.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hi, I'm Jesse Perry. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched product perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Foreign.

[A]

I'm brett.

[B]

And I'm alice.

[A]

And we are the prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we continue our look at the disappearance of Jody, who's in True. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined always by my Bop co host, Alice.

[B]

Like as in an oombop.

[A]

An oombop, man, that's a.

[B]

A moment in time.

[A]

That's a moment in time. Exactly. Well, I like it.

[B]

Whatever it is, I love it because bop it was my favorite game as a kid that just like brought back memories. I loved bop It. What a fantastic game. Bop was one of the best songs of all time. Still is. So whatever bop means. Thanks. Thank you.

[A]

So my room, Bob story, obviously in bop was big when we were. Well, you were probably in middle school when it was big. Was that right?

[B]

Maybe even elementary school. Let's see what year it is.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

It was like, I'm curious.

[A]

96.97. I'm gonna go with Bob.

[B]

What year is it? Let's see.

[A]

So but I mean, I always liked oombop.

[B]

I thought Oombo was 1997.

[A]

There you go. And my high school girlfriend at the time liked humbap. And all the girls liked that band. What was the name?

[B]

Hanson.

[A]

Hanson. Hanson.

[B]

What do you mean that band? Hanson.

[A]

The brothers, the Brothers. The Brothers Hanson. Anyways, and so it was a fine song. It's great. It's no big deal. Not like a. It's not like, you know, the greatest song ever or anything, but about how long would it have been? About 12 years later. I was in D.C. and I was at a law firm at the time, and we would always go out. I mean, that's just what you do when you're in a law firm. You just. You work all day, then you go out and you stay all day.

[B]

That's why the law firm scene is not for me.

[A]

I mean, honestly. Yeah, I mean, it was okay when I was 26. Yeah.

[B]

But not as an old, old, old.

[A]

Woman, Alice, as I often tell people. I spent all the time, you know, and energy that you're supposed to dedicate to, like, staying up with your kids and getting up in the middle of night. Unfortunately, I spent all that, like, in bars in D.C. now I regret it. But whatever, it's fine. So we would all go out, and we went out to this, like, place in Georgetown, the Tombs. Ever been to the Tombs in Georgetown?

[B]

Is it by, like, where they shot the Exorcist?

[A]

Yes, it is. Right next to where they shot the.

[B]

I assume that's why it's called the Tombs, because that staircase is terrifying.

[A]

You know, I don't know why, but, yeah, it's at the top of the stairs, and then, like, you walk over, and it's like, if you go down to get into it, which also might be why it's a tombstone.

[B]

Sounds like a very aptly named bar, shall we say?

[A]

Anyway, this is a long. But we're going to continue with it because this is what this podcast is all about. So we went out to that place, which I always love, the Tombs, but we went out to that bar that night, and there was a DJ, and so the DJs playing songs or whatever. And, like, at some point in the night, I go up to him and I like. I'm like, dude, I got a request, and if you play it, this place is gonna go crazy. And he was like, what? Boom bop.

[B]

What?

[A]

He breaks out in. This is like, 2008, 2007, something like that.

[B]

Well, like, he never heard of.

[A]

The girls who were there, who were in college at that time, were in elementary school and middle school. When Oombop came out, they loved it. And when that song came on, that place went crazy. It was like, People always talk about stadium pops when, like, a big play happens. It was, like, awesome. It was one of the coolest Things I've ever seen. I mean, it was great and everybody was singing it. It was awesome. If you did that now, like, nobody would. Everybody, like, I think they would.

[B]

I'm curious poll wise if the 20 year olds would know what UMBOP is. It's such a good song. I don't know. I hear. I hear the high schoolers play at our pool. And they're like, the high school.

[A]

That's true. They do play.

[B]

So they may throw. They may play it in like completely tongue in cheek, but they play it.

[A]

You know what they love at the pool and it's Darth Vader song.

[B]

Because my second child requests it every time.

[A]

Yeah, we go to the same pool. And so it's always these high school kids who were working as lifeguards. No, they love Fleetwood Mac.

[B]

They do.

[A]

They love Fleetwood Mac.

[B]

They do.

[A]

They talk about it. I hear them talking about it all the time, like how much they like Fleetwood Mac. And I'm like, you guys, there's hope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For this generation. Anyway, anyways, this is not an episode of Pool.

[B]

They do a pretty good job. Like, it doesn't feel like it's just a bunch of high schooler songs that don't resonate with me.

[A]

No, it's really not. In fact, it's almost no songs that I haven't heard.

[B]

It's actually mostly us songs.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. But anyways, as I said, this is not an After Dark and it's not a New Year's. It's not as well now be April Fool's joke. We actually are gonna talk about the case today and we'll go ahead and start now. I mean, we're going back and pre. I mean, this is how old this case is.

[B]

We're going to prep. That's actually very old.

[A]

So we're talking about the Jody who's Intrude case. Obviously, if you haven't listened to the first episode, you probably should do that. But to give you a quick rec, this was a woman who was a newscaster in Mason City, Iowa, and she disappeared one day, never showed up to work. The police responded very quickly after her disappearance, and it became very clear this wasn't a disappearance, it was an abduction. They found a lot of evidence outside, including on the ground around her vehicle, indicating that she had been taken after she had left her apartment, but before she got to her car to drive to the news station that day. So we got through a lot of the timeline, but now we're up to July 6, 1995. And this is one of those indications that Jody knew something was wrong. We talked earlier. She had been getting phone calls and not just hang up phone calls, phone calls that were vulgar, possibly threatening. They certainly bothered her enough that she had mentioned changing her phone number. Well, on July 6th, it's reported that a Mason City martial arts instructor had said that Jody actually attended a self defense course that he taught. And she told him that there had been an incident a few months before that she wasn't, quote, comfortable with, whatever that means. It's not entirely clear. The police may have more information, but that's what we have. So this is an indication she's definitely feeling a threat. She feels like she needs to take some action to protect herself. You know, the thing about this attack, as we talked about last time, was probably so fast that there was no amount of training that was going to help her. She was overpowered very quickly. So July 25, it's been almost a month since the disappearance. At this point, investigators have received over 700 tips and interviewed around 800 people. But they have really no solid suspects and not much more than what they started with on the day that Jody disappeared. And this is a very frustrating thing for police. You can imagine. I mean, this is a. This thing happened like, I mean, out in the open. Granted, it was early in the morning, but nevertheless, it's in a public parking lot. People did hear a scream. The police arrived so quickly afterwards. You just feel like there should be a break in this case. And yet there's not. And this case starts to get a lot of attention in Iowa and other places. And this reminds me a little bit of the Delphi case. I've talked about this before. I'll never forget sitting in my office with my television on and seeing a news report about it and thinking, well, they'll solve that. A few days. They're going to get that guy. It's not going to take long at all. And then weeks pass and months passed and you just assume, oh, I'm sure they solved that, whatever happened in that. And then you found out, no, they didn't. And it takes years and thank God they did end up solving that one. But this one is still going. But by August, people are organizing candlelight vigils, are trying to get out more to raise attention on this case. And at one candlelight vigil, 250 people attend. Remember, Jody's not just someone with a lot of really close friends and families. She's somebody who came into people's homes every night back then in particular, the mid-90s, the local newscasters, I mean, they were people you felt like you knew. I remember that watching the local news, it's not like it is now. I mean, these people were big deals. And so to have one of them disappear in a relatively small city, I mean, Mason City is not tiny, but it's not huge either. You can imagine the effect it had on people in the area. By September, the police are still working at this, but Jody's family, they want some outside help as well. They hire a PI they start making appearances on national television in hopes of bringing some more attention to the case. And one thing that does happen is they're able to increase the reward to $30,000.

[B]

And so with still kind of no real leads, they turn to national attention. On September 23, 1995, Jody's case is featured on America's Most Wanted. I remember watching this in the 90s. I mean, you looked for. These were the cases, and it was a big deal whenever these cases were featured. This was back in the day when there were no stre streaming services. All eyes were basically on a handful of shows. So when America's Most Wanted was on, everyone was watching. And it did spur some additional tips. 60 additional tips, in fact, were received as a result of her case being on America's Most Wanted. Now. December 9, 1995. As you can tell, even though those tips came in publicly, we don't know that there were any kind of advancements in the case. No arrests made, no search warrants, nothing. But come December, two reservoirs at dams in Mason City are searched to hopefully find something or maybe someone, but they turn up nothing. And then a few more months go by. They are working this nonstop, but still there's kind of no real leads. February 18, 1996. Unsolved Mysteries features Jody's case. Now, this generated 97 tips. So in the span of just about a few months, she's on kind of the two biggest true crime shows of this time. And they do generate tips, but they will take anything they can get at this point.

[A]

It's a testament to just how difficult this case is that you're all an Unsolved Mysteries and America's Most Wanted. You feel like that's gold mine for back then, and we talked about how attention can solve cases, and now there's all sorts of different outlets for that. But back then, those guys were. They were the behemoths. I mean, that was. That was it. That was where you went.

[B]

That was true crime.

[A]

That was true crime. And it was Even more mainstream than true crime is now. I mean, people across the country turned on those television programs when they came on. And for the family, that had to have been so much hope. Like, man, this is it. She's gonna be on national TV on these two huge programs. We're gonna find something. But apparently nothing, nothing useful at least.

[B]

And this is what we said last time. This is not a situation of shoddy police work or kind of latent, you know, sitting around seeing what's going to happen. Missing person type of case. We've seen in other situations where maybe the police say come back in 12 hours, come back in 24 hours, come back in a week, see if they show up. Remember, the police were basically on the scene within an hour or two or three of the abduction. And she's on all these nationwide television programs through. There are searches, there are rewards. Basically everything that can go right if there is such thing as a right in trying to solve a case is happening in her case. The fact that it generates, you know, there's still nothing is the shocking part. Her parents and her family do not give up though. Even though it's now been almost a year, they are still searching for her. On May 4, 1996, her family organized yet another search with about 100 people in Northeast Cerro Gordo County. Again, turns up nothing. In fact, they find nothing suspicious at all with this hundred person search. And that's basically it. That's the timeline. It is non stop pedal to the metal in terms of investigating and keeping attention and trying to generate as many tips and interview as many people as possible for about a year. And it leads to no arrests and it also leads to no body. They can't find Jody at all. So Fast forward to May 2001. She has been gone now for 16 years. 15 years.

[A]

6 years.

[B]

6. 6 years.

[A]

You're doing the thing I did.

[B]

When you jump a century, it gets really, really confusing. A millennium, sorry, six years. Jody is legally declared dead by a judge in Cerro Gordo County, Iowa. Now, the reason you do this is like everything is held up right? You're a state, even if you don't have a lot, basically nothing can be done if you're just out there. So their family can't move on anything, any of her assets, if there's life insurance. But it's more than just that. Like you literally have a certificate, you know, that you are dead, to be able to move forward. And that is basically it for the timeline. Now fast forward more. There's still attention on the case, obviously in 2005, Jody's network of Hope is established. It's a non profit organization which aimed to advance and promote personal safety for adults and children. Now, this nonprofit operated for almost 20 years, but it was eventually dissolved in 2024.

[A]

So on March 17, 2017, and this is a testament to sort of how the police are still working this case. And I hate to say desperation, but it kind of feels desperate. The police execute a search warrant for two of John Van Cise's vehicles. You may recall him, Jody's friend, who named his boat after her. They put some tracking devices on the vehicles and monitor his movements for a few days. He provides DNA, fingerprints, palm prints. He provides basically everything to federal investigators under a subpoena, because who knows at this point? We got the feds involved, everybody's involved. Nothing comes of this. Nothing comes of this tracking. It feels like the police are just hoping, you know, maybe he'll, I don't know, drive out to where he left her or something, and they'll track him there and then solve the case.

[B]

That's just really hard because that, if that works, it's usually like days or weeks after the event. Because you can imagine, I mean, we saw this in the Adnan case. Like, do you go back within the weeks after to see if people are going to find the body or something like that? Usually not, you know, 20 years.

[A]

Yeah. Now we are 22 years after. After. I mean, this is a long time. September 1, 2023, they increased the reward to $50,000. They will then double that May 30, 2024, to $100,000 for recovery of Jody's remains. In December of 2024, John Van Cise would die at age 78. And though he was always considered a bit of a person of interest, he was never officially declared a suspect. To the extent there's a distinction between those two terms. And if he knew anything more than what he had shared in the past, he took it with him. And as Alice said, you had sort of this disappearance, a lot of activity. It has now been 30 years since her disappearance, and we don't have a lot now. I don't want you to think nothing's happening. The police are still actively investigating. There was a Hulu documentary recently which actually focused on the police and some of their efforts. And they talked about how this was a case that they would never let go. Jody's friends and family continue to work this case. As I said, the Fine Jody website and podcast continue to attempt to bring attention to this case. But Right now, I would say we're at a bit of a standstill. So as we always say, as we're about to get into some of the interesting parts of this case, if you're somebody who is in Iowa, was around that time, if you know anything, if there's anything you can share, even if you shared a tip before, maybe just share it again. Fresh ears may hear it differently. The Mason City Police Department, you can contact them at 641-421-36. So with that, let's jump into some of the details that we talked about during the timeline. Butterworth. More exposition.

[B]

So the car keys. We talked a little bit about how she went to her car from her front door, and it was somewhere there that she was abducted and dragged off. So Jody's car key was found on the ground. It has been described as bent by the investigators. Now, the bent is very slight. You actually can't really see that it's bent from photographs alone. So what does this tell us? Jody's things were found on the ground, and it's known that she often put them in the passenger side of the car. Remember the curling iron kind of things to get ready for the day because it's so early, but she has to go get ready for the broadcast. If I were her, I'd roll out of bed and get ready at the station. Now, it's likely that Jodi was attacked shortly after putting her key in her passenger side door, resulting in that slight bend to the key as it was pulled out with force. Or maybe she was holding on, pushed, something like that. Those of you who have car keys know that they're relatively strong. It's not easy to bend them. You probably can't bend it by, like, pushing it with your fingers or thumb. Something with, like, equal strength, like steel from the keyhole would have to do that sort of damage. And it also would explain the slight bend. You obviously know there's a bend if you try to stick the car key into a keyhole, but otherwise, if you just look at it, it may not be very apparent. And also, the slightest of bends actually takes an immense amount of force for it to happen.

[A]

And I think we talked about this before, but it's worth reiterating this fact. The distance from Jody's apartment to her car is minuscule. You know, we're talking seconds. Yeah, like 10 seconds to walk from her door to her vehicle. So this happened very quickly. You may recall we talked about the Judy Martins case, and one of the questions there was, she's walking from one Dorm to another dorm. And we talked about how it was a very short walk and how the question was, could it really have been someone who just happened to be passing by, saw her, and decided to grab her in that short period of time? But it was enough time that you couldn't fully rule that out. This one is about as close to fully ruling that out as you can. Just because the speed at which this person had to act, I mean, they essentially, the moment she walked out of her door, they had to be making their way towards her to get to her, right as she's getting to her passenger side door, grabbing her and then taking her somewhere. And we know that part of the way they took her somewhere was they drug her. There were drag marks on the ground. So that means, I think, pretty obvious that she was dragged from the location where she was attacked. And it appeared to be, you could tell, like, you know, her feet would have made these drag marks as this person was dragging them. This is interesting for a couple reasons. Number one, it indicates that Jody was incapacitated during the initial attack, but there's no blood at the scene, so it's unlikely that she was dead at this point. It wasn't. You know, someone didn't run up and shoot her or run up and cut her throat or anything like that. You have the scream, which is probably the moment the person contacts with her, and then that's it. People heard one scream, no more. Was she knocked out? Was she chloroformed? I don't know if people even do that in real life, but if something happened to her that she was very quickly incapacitated, I mean, someone could have strangled her in some way to knock her out as well. That's the first thing that's interesting. The second thing that's interesting is it means that whoever did this either could not or chose not to lift her off the ground. They drug her across the ground. She was 5, 3, and 120 pounds. I think this is interesting because as we're going to talk about, I mean, one outlandish theory would be that someone who was in competition with her would attack her. You know, we assume always that these are men because 99.9% of the times you have an attack like this, probably more nines are needed. There it is. But, you know, maybe the fact that this person drug her instead of just picking her up is an indication that they're a smaller person. I don't know. That's maybe a reach, but interesting thing nonetheless.

[B]

I'll say. The dragging is so Visceral. Kind of like when we talk about certain crimes that are more personal than others, like stabbing, punching, choking. Those are very personal attacks versus, say, shooting someone. You can be across the room, not have to see the whites of their eyes, so to speak. The dragging almost seems like an extra level of cruelty because that's incredibly dehumanizing to pull someone. It's also very confident. Right. Not caring that you're leaving behind drag marks, for example. And I don't know that they can tell, based on the drag marks, how she was dragged. But if this is along the lines of it being very personal, very cruel, unnecessarily, I can imagine it's dragging by, say, the hair, something that causes unnecessary denigration. It's like stomping on someone, even if you could do something, dragging them as if they're a rag doll. And I don't know that she's conscious at this point. The chloroform is interesting because obviously that seems like the most obvious. How do you get someone to only scream one time and then be able to immediately drag them away? But you would think, I mean, at least at all the movies I watch, I don't think I've ever had a case with chloroform. So I don't know that. I know that.

[A]

I don't know that people actually chloroform.

[B]

Each other, I don't think. But I was gonna say, if you're gonna chloroform, you can do it relatively quickly. I'm not even sure you'd have time to scream, because you could, if she's focusing on the key, come immediately behind, rather than a scream of terror. Right. Like it. That's the point of chloroform, is you're able to do it essentially with almost no sound. So the scream is almost like this whole thing seems incredibly personal against her for purposes of demoting her as a human, like stripping away all her dignity as much as possible, more so than just a random, violent attack. Now, that's just me pontificating on this. There's so little to go on. We just have drag marks here. But I will say the dragging to me seems very visceral, maybe just as a woman, because that seems like one of my greatest fears is being dragged away knowing that there's nothing I can do. And by the way, the hair is one way to do it, because you can't reach them from behind, as in every case. And we've mentioned this before, it's not the first time we've mentioned this, but the white van. So as we said, in just about any suspicious case, witnesses are going to say they see some sort of suspicious white van in the area before whatever event happened. And here before Jody was kidnapped. Multiple witnesses also say they saw a white van. In fact, they say they saw a man near the van and were able to to provide a sketch of this person. Now, for reasons that are unclear, this sketch has never been released to the public. The van was seen parked in an unusual place and one witness said the parking lights were on. This is an interesting choice. We never know exactly what's going on when there's still an active investigation. But 30 years having passed, it seems like if they had a sketch, just let it out. Like who knows, maybe someone will say the maybe it was an older man, a younger man. It can help someone say, wait, I did see that person. But for whatever reason, that sketch exists but has never been released. At least two people in the case owned a van. John Van Cise owned a blue van. Another potential suspect and the ex husband of one of her friends, Brand Miller Bend, owned a white van. Now look, I own a white van too. A minivan, but not that uncommon to own a van. And the fact that these two people have vans may or may not mean anything.

[A]

Where Were you in 1995, Alice?

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I'll say this about John Van Cise's van. It takes a lot for me to rule anybody out based on an eyewitness thing. So some people have said, well, it could have been him. His van was blue. Okay. I mean, I would think you would get white, right? Like if you said it was a white van, it would actually be a white van. I mean, it's not like the difference between blue and black and dark green and, you know, burgundy and maroon or anything like that. I mean, it's white. So you think you would, you would get that. The one thing I don't know is what kind of blue we're talking about here. Because if it's a light blue, like.

[B]

A sky blue and it's black outside.

[A]

That might look white to you. Or you if you're not really looking that closely, you might tell the cops later on it was white when it was actually light blue. I don't know. But interesting thing that people have seen and this becomes one of those things that everybody focuses on, is this something that's going to tie the killer to this case? And as we'll talk about later, one person in particular, this Miller Bend person, has become a popular suspect. Let's talk about one of the more intriguing things in this case. I'm always interested to hear what Alice thinks about this. The toilet seat. Okay. So one of the first things that the police said was there was no indication that there was anybody in the house or in the apartment with Jody that day. And there was nothing out of order. At some point, the police noticed that the toilet seat in Jody's apartment was up. And this has led many to speculate that Jody had a male visitor in her apartment the night before. You all know what we're talking about here. Men get up, they use the bathroom, leave the toilet seat up, right? It's like, it's a joke, and so often happens. Of course, there are other possibilities. You know, I think it's unlikely that Jody was spontaneously cleaning that night. But, hey, it's possible that she cleaned her toilet and left the toilet up. Another possibility is that she had gotten sick at some point during the night and had thrown up, and so that she actually put the toilet up and then just never put it down. We don't know how much exactly Jody was drinking or even if she was drinking, but we do know that she had been at this golfing event the day before. We know that she was drinking at that golfing event. There are indications that she continued to drink that night. So it's possible that she got sick. Another possibility is that a police officer, a detective, or some other visitor used the toilet after she went missing before. Police noticed this, and just once they saw it, they're like, oh, it must have always been that way, but it could have been someone else who did that. The fact of the matter is, all the evidence of Jody's abduction was found in the parking lot. So the police never really treated her apartment as a crime scene. So it is not outside the realm of possibility that a police officer could have done this. I will note, if you've seen the Hulu documentary, the current detective just dismisses that out of hand, like, there's no way that happened. It's like, come on, man. You need to. Let's open your mind a little bit. I mean, look, the JonBenet Ramsey case. And you can see everything police can do to mess up a crime scene in addition to the toilet seat and sort of, you know, maybe strengthening the idea that this was some sort of visitor. There were two wine glasses on the counter. One had lipstick on it, one did not. These two wine glasses were side by side, and that indicated that someone was with Jody at some point before she disappeared. Though it's also possible that she just never got around to cleaning up two wine glasses from some sort of prior engagement. So what do you think, Alice? Toilet seat, significant or not, you've listed.

[B]

A bunch of what ifs and possibilities. Typically, I don't ever put up the toilet seat. Even when I clean it, I clean it, and I Put it back down. Because it annoys me to have the toilet seat up. It just gross. I don't know. I put everything down even after I Clorox it and wipe everything down. That's just me. Everyone is different now. It does appear that she was probably drinking for at least a long part of the day. Even if she didn't think she had drank a lot. That's a long day of drinking, being in the sun, golfing. And she could have just been puking. I will say this. I don't know. I'm very interested to hear other people what their puking experiences are. I puke with the seat down because it grosses me out to be that close to the toilet bowl. That's just me. I know that typically you just. You want to, like, minimize the splash zone, but maybe because I just. It's, like, so close to the toilet bowl and my face is there. I prefer, like, a seat cover in the way. So I. Because whatever, I'm going to clean the whole thing anyway. If I throw up, right? So I'm going to clean the seat no matter what. If I throw up anywhere near my toilet. So I typically. Even when I throw up, throw up with the seat down, not lift it up. And here's another reason. When I'm throwing up. This is me. I think it's for everybody. It comes on suddenly. Right. That's why you, like, puke into, like, a bowl or into a trash can. I usually don't have enough time to lift up a seat or care enough about it. Now my seat's usually down because I make the boys in my house put the seat down. So I guess I would run to the toilet in the state that it's in to puke. It's just that my toilet seat is typically down. Is that. That's not you?

[A]

Okay, so first of all, in the chat, like, every woman that's responded says they leave the toilet seat down when they throw up.

[B]

I didn't know this was a gendered thing. Thank you.

[A]

I don't know that it is a gendered thing, but I find this to be very strange.

[B]

You lift it up?

[A]

Yeah. Because how do you have to. Because why would you. Otherwise you risk having, like, puke all over your toilet seat that at some point you're gonna sit on? Why would you.

[B]

In my mind, I'm gonna clean everything.

[A]

You're gonna try.

[B]

I'm gonna Clorox everything no matter what. Like, before I go to the bathroom.

[A]

I mean, okay, fine. Maybe the perfect cleaner. I would rather not End up accidentally sitting and puke because I miss, like, a spot. And just like, if you lift the toilet seat, you can get closer to, like, the target and there's no less splash. There's nothing splashing all over the place. Like, if you're. You don't worry about the splashing.

[B]

Like, I. So I don't think I stand up.

[A]

While you throw up too.

[B]

Or do you, like, thought about this this week much? But usually it's less. It is the gross factor. But at that point, I'm already nauseous, so it doesn't matter. I think for me, it's more the fact that I'm just running to the state of the toilet the way it is. And the toilet seat's typically down, so I'm not going to change it because I'm about to vomit.

[A]

Well, do you have, like a top cover?

[B]

I lift. I don't just throw up.

[A]

I know you lift that, but that's my question. If you're lifting that, why not lift the whole thing?

[B]

Because it goes. Because what if it's not like. I don't know. I don't know. I never thought about it. This is not like if you had. I don't think I've ever thought about this until right this second. But my typical state is I don't think I usually will throw up with the seat up.

[A]

Now let me say this. I always put the seat back down if I throw up. Like, I'm much more likely to hop around.

[B]

Whatever. Damn.

[A]

After throwing up than I am after just using the bathroom. Like, I often don't think about it when she's in the bathroom. But if I throw up, I'm definitely gonna put the seat.

[B]

Okay, slightly different question then. Similar. And I'm curious what the chat says. When I clean the toilet, I lift the seat to clean, and then I put the seat back down after I clean. I'm curious if everyone else does that, because if part of the theory is she was puking and cleaning it even after I puke. If I'm clean, I usually don't clean it right then because if I feel terrible, I'm not gonna clean it. But when I clean, as a cleaning matter, I usually put the who down, including the top cover.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think it's unlikely this is a cleaning thing.

[B]

What's more interesting to me are the two wine glasses.

[A]

Well, before we go to that, I want to continue talking about.

[B]

Well, I think that in conjunction with.

[A]

The seat up right now, it was said that Jody was a little bit of a Messy person because she was just so go, go, go. She was always out. She wasn't the kind of person whose home was always clean. And so that's been sort of the argument against that, that like, it could have been two nights before she had.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I will say this. The fact that she got off the telephone with that friend quickly, it was like, oh, I'm going to bed. Always made me think someone might be coming over. She's trying to get them off the phone so she can like, move on with her night. Right. So here's one thing that I thought about, but I don't know how convincing this is. So here's what we know for certain. If there was someone over there that night who left with her, then kidnapped her, I think they almost would have had to have done that because. Or they left well before she did, which doesn't really make sense because unless.

[B]

Not well before her, unless because she's late. He leaves because the other possibility is that whoever is doing this attack is mad because someone else is in there with her.

[A]

Oh, that's a good point.

[B]

Right, so. So it's possible that the person. But I feel like the person in there, and the reason that person hasn't come forward is because they're gonna to obviously be suspect number one. So there's a possibility that either he's still in there, hears the scream, realizes something terrible is gonna happen. By the way, terrible guy. If he just, like, hightails it out of there and has never given any sort of description or helped out with the investigation, even if he's completely innocent, or she got woken up by the call, she's relaxed, being, you know, whatever, but she's clearly in a rush. But it takes her longer to get out of the house than her usual 15 to 20 minutes because there's someone else in her house with her and. And she's trying to get out. But that's why she's even more delayed than normal and leaves even later than she normally would be if she were woken up by her producer. He leaves because she's like, I gotta get to work. I'm late. So he leaves like five, ten minutes before her. She gathers her things. The person knows where to wait because he's now seen whoever was in her apartment leave. These are. I mean, this is so frustrating because it could be so many things. But I don't want to limit it to just whoever's in the apartment because then I think that person definitely will never come forward. But also, we may be missing a big thing is like, if we know that there's someone who is stalking her or particular something triggered them to do it this day and this day. But it was an unusual day because she's leaving like an hour later than usual. And then knowing where to attack her, knowing to wait on the passenger side, for example, to attack her, because that's where she put her things might be because of who was in the apartment with her.

[A]

So putting that aside is definitely a possibility. One question I've had about the toilet seat in particular is it would be up because the last person who used it was this person who was there. So I would think, especially if the person did not stay the night, that Jody would have used it after them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now, the question I don't know the answer to is, if she was rushing, would she have gone ahead and used the bathroom before leaving her apartment? Because you know how it is. Everybody has used the bathroom and they get up, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Like, so I would think even if you were in a rush, one of the last things you do is use the bathroom before you left your apartment. Because you're gonna have to use it at some point. And better to use it now than at the studio. Right. So if this is someone who left it up, then she didn't do that. Which I think a little unusual, maybe, not necessarily definitive, but I think it points away from it being someone who was there and more towards this sort of police officer or someone else who came in and used it then.

[B]

I don't know anyone who's able to get up and not go to the bathroom.

[A]

Yeah, that's like the first thing you do. No matter how rushed you are, that's one thing you're going to do.

[B]

It's actually because it's a hormonal response. Did you know that? I recently learned that, like, I mean, also because you went through a long period of time without going to the bathroom, but she actually went to bed not too long, long ago. But the reason you don't say most people, You. You. Some people still, it's fine if you wet your bed, that's okay. But the reason you don't wet your bed is it's a hormonal response. And when you wake up, the hormones shift, and that triggers your body to have the typical responses and typical urges to empty your bladder. So it is like a universal thing because of your body's hormones.

[A]

Well, there you go. So I don't know.

[B]

I have no idea. It is interesting. I think you're right. It probably. This is like the JonBenet Ramsey case where, like the victim advocates come in, share a bunch of bagels, and clean up everything. It's not that there were no fingerprints. It's that probably someone went to the bathroom. And I assume it's an apartment with one bathroom, maybe two bath. Yeah, yeah, one bathroom. And they're in there doing a lot of canvassing. There's no indication that the apartment itself is the crime scene. So use that bathroom. Right. I think that's probably more likely what happened.

[A]

I think that's what happened too.

[B]

But. Okay. Wine glasses, really quick. Sure. Everyone is different. I will say again, curious chat. Wine glasses, because they can stain if you don't at least fill them with water. Even if I don't wash wine glasses the same night, I usually empty them out and fill them with water. Not even soap, just so that the red doesn't stain the glass because it makes it much easier to clean later. I usually clean wine glasses right away, but that's the least that I do. And having lived with many different girls throughout college, I lived in a sorority house and wine glasses were everywhere. The image of wine glasses soaking in the sink is a very common thing. Like, other things may, you know, go in the dishwasher, but usually wine glasses, they're more delicate, so you wash them by hand. And like every single one of my roommates, I remember, remember at some point, wine glasses just soaking with water in the sink.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I will say this, spoiler alert. I think someone else was with her that night. So. But I don't necessarily know that the toilet seat is relevant. I'm more convinced by the wine glasses, I think.

[B]

Yeah, the wine glasses is much more telling. Telling to me. Well, okay. In this. Look, there's so few things to grasp at in this case, but those two things I think are very, very, very interesting. Happy to hear your thoughts. This chat has been very informative to me. It's almost like a survey of your practices with respect to toilet seats and wine glasses here. Okay. Moving on to other interesting factors in this case. Harassment. According to some reports, Jody had been experiencing vulgar phone calls to the point that she was considering changing her numbers. She'd also had some sort of uncomfortable encounter with a man in. In a white truck. She had reported this encounter to the police, and these incidents had unsettled her to the extent that she was taking the martial arts classes. Now she's a young, blonde, very public facing person. Unfortunately, it's not too surprising to me that she had these experiences. It's horrible. But she lived alone she was single, she was on tv, and she was pretty. This leads creepers to target her because she's just more public than your average blonde, 26 year old. So could it mean nothing? Maybe. But obviously when something this violent happens, you have to take into account that she was facing unusual types of harassments in the months leading up to her abduction.

[A]

And apparently this was bad enough that the police had actually offered to give her a police escort from her apartment to the studio. At least that's what they said in the. In the Hulu documentary, which I thought that was interesting because that makes it feel like this report was much more serious than just random crank callers, which I think she would get. As we said, there were just fewer outlets, I think, for weirdos to target people back then. So I can imagine that your local television reporter was just getting all kinds of harassment at this time, maybe even worse than now. The white truck is interesting because it's a white truck, not a white van. And I wonder.

[B]

And if you have a cover for a truck, it could look like a van, especially in the dark.

[A]

Exactly, that's what I was gonna say. Like, could it be a truck without a camper? And then they put the camper on later on? I mean, I don't know. But yeah, it's just a. This case is frustrating. It's like Al said, you have all these like tiny bits of information and you're trying to grab onto them and make them work to tell a story in some way, but there's not quite enough to be able to do it. And we're about to talk about yet another thing which is disputed and makes you wonder about this whole. Was somebody there? Beer cans. So, as we said, there's nothing particularly out of order in the apartment, but you did have those wine glasses. There's also reports that there were beer cans in the sink. The beer cans are described in some reports as Bud Light Tall boys, which apparently were not Jody's brand. So then you. If you have the wine glasses, you have the toilet seat, you have the beer cans, you start to think maybe this is an indication of visitor. However, this has been disputed. And in fact, the police have said, at least in the Hulu documentary, that there were no beer cans found in the kitchen. So I'm not exactly sure where this information comes from because it is widely reported. I mean, if you research this case, you're going to see this about the beer cans and about the fact that they're a different brand. And I just got to tell you, this is going to sound a little weird, I don't always trust the police when they say things on these, like, documentaries and stuff about investigations, because sometimes I wonder if, number one, the officer who's saying it has all the information, and number two, if for some reason they don't want this piece of information out there and so they're trying to, like, kind of claw it back or hide it, I mean, they're under no obligation to tell you the truth. Right. It's almost. With these old cases, I almost wish the police would put together, like, a handout, a pamphlet of information they want the public to say about the facts in the case and just lay it out, knowing that people are going to talk about it. Just have sort of like, this is a verified document for the public and for anyone who wants to talk about this case. And here are the facts, here are some myths. We want to debunk those myths. That would be kind of helpful because you do have sort of all these things to sort of accrete over time with these cases. And I think you see that to some extent in Jody's case. But the beer cans in the kitchen were not the only beer cans that have been mentioned in this investigation and may not be the. The most important beer cans. There was a woman who lived in the apartment complex who reported that for a week before Jody went missing, she had noticed a pile of Coors Light cans in a parking spot near Jody's apartment. And basically, she would leave her apartment in the morning to go to work. She'd see all these beer cans in the parking lot near this parking space. She'd get kind of irritated about it, but by the time she got back home, they were gone. Probably cleaned up by somebody or whatever. Then the next day, she'd get up and she'd leave, and there are the beer cans again. And she's, like, irritated about it. And this happened for about a week, every night before Jody went missing. And this actually led the police to search some dumpsters near the apartments. And they did find Coors Light cans, though. Probably would find Coors Light cans in every dumpster in Iowa. But nevertheless, is a little bit of interesting information that might direct you in a certain way when you're thinking about the case.

[B]

I don't know what to think about it. I really don't. I mean, that's a lot of beer every night. Enough for her to notice it. Right. I don't know. When you were drinking a lot, how many beers would you drink in a night?

[A]

Me?

[B]

Yeah. Because I. You are able to take down more alcohol than the average person. I'm just saying this is more than like a couple, right? But to see it every night, that's.

[A]

Like, was it a party?

[B]

Was it more than one person?

[A]

Typically, if I was going somewhere, what I'd often do is I would buy a six pack and I drink six pack.

[B]

So that's just me that fits into a grocery bag of empty like that. In other words, that could fit into a trash can pretty easily. This is like a lot for her to notice a pile. Now she didn't.

[A]

What's the person doing? Like, sitting in their car, just throwing the beer cans out the window. It's like a weird thing to do.

[B]

If you're trying to be like a stalker. That's not very, you know, just keep it in your car, you know, open the door later and like kick it out on the highway or something. Don't litter, by the way. But my point being, you don't have to leave all the evidence there. So I wonder if it's just not really related to this or just the world's stupidest stalker.

[A]

And this is always a problem in these cases because just think about West Memphis. 3. You're like any of the cases we've done that aren't solved. And you have all the. Or Delphi. You have all these people coming from forward trying to help, and they're giving you some piece of information, and you have no idea whether it's connected or not. I mean, you could be right. Like, it just be like somebody was just drinking out in the parking lot, they were depressed for a week, and then they got over it, right? Or they got kicked out by their wife or something. I mean, who knows? The fact it's close to her apartment makes it feel a little bit more. It also could just be she saw it once and kind of exaggerated. I mean, you just never know with these things. It's such a ephemeral piece of evidence, it's hard to do much with it.

[B]

Now, the thing of course to note is that if it is near Jody's apartment, you hear of like peeping Toms, right? I think she did leave her windows open pretty often. But even if she didn't, if a peeping Tom would want to be close to her apartment, you can hear, you can see through the cracks of a curtain, if there was a curtain. But I think generally, because she was just in and out all the time, she left her windows pretty much open. So that is an interesting thing to note. May be completely unrelated, but you're Gonna look at everything at this point. Now, one thing that is interesting about this abduction, whoever did this waited past when Jody would normally have left for work, and not just by a little kind of a significant oversleeping that day. She overslept, we know, and she was woken up by her producer when she didn't show up at her usual time. If this was someone who had stalked her and was watching her to know her routine, they waited at least two hours past when Jody normally left for work. Remember, she was expected at the News station at 3am she wasn't called by her producer until 4am and the scream didn't happen until 4:30. So this person would have waited for a very, very long time, potentially being seen by others, which isn't impossible. But we've always said, why not just come back the next day if you know her routine so well, do it on a day that's regular, where you've mapped out exactly what's going to happen down to the minute. Because you know her routine. Why kind of throw in all these exogenous factors that could throw off your abduction plan.

[A]

Okay, now let's talk about theories. So look, I don't think there's any question what happened here. Someone abducted Jody. Unfortunately, almost certainly she was murdered fairly quickly after she was abducted. The question is who and why? So let's give a few possible theories about this case. One is, as we mentioned earlier, a competitor. Newscasting was a very competitive industry. Jody was very popular with the people in, in the area. Maybe someone saw her as someone standing in the way and this is why they had to do a blitz attack. Because if you imagine it's a woman, it's going to be more difficult for them to just to overpower Jody at some point. And then the dragging might indicate that as well. Really feels like, you know, if this were Murder She Wrote, that's exactly what it would be at the end. You know, Jessica would be like, it was you, producer lady. You were so envious of Jody. And she would break down and say, yes, you're right, I did it. And she would explain exactly how she did it while leaving out most information. You really need to figure out how she did it. But I think the chances of it being something like that are basically zero. So I think we can strike out a competitor as a possibility. Well, what about someone in the apartment complex itself? So remember, whoever did this, they had to be close by. They had to strike quickly. They had to very quickly get Jody out of the area and do it in a way that no one noticed. Well, what if they didn't have to put her in the back of a car or a truck or a van? What if it was someone in the apartment complex itself who attacked Jody and then maybe took them back to their room? Highly unlikely that is the case, because the police actually did their job. So the police, in this case, canvassed the entire apartment building. They went to every single apartment in the complex. This is like the opposite of what we saw in West Memphis. Three and interviewed the people there to the extent that if they knocked on the door and no one answered, they had a manager with them who would open the door and they would just go in anyway. Which, by the way, illegal. Seems totally illegal. I don't think you could do that. They talk about, like, bursting in on people who are asleep in their beds who are like, what are you doing in my apartment? And they're, like, getting this information. Anyway, illegal or not, we know that they actually went to all these apartments. Jody obviously wasn't in any of those apartments. They did it that day. So if it was someone in the apartment, they had been very lucky, and they would have had to have gotten her out of the apartment at some point. Like, at some point, you have to move her out. So I think it's highly unlikely it was someone in the apartment complex. But it's always good to think about this because concentric circles, remember, start with people closest to the victim, and that can mean neighbors and friends. And the most often mentioned friend is John Van Cise. So he is a common person of interest. By his own admission, he was probably the last person to see Jody alive. He also showed up at the scene remarkably early. The police were still processing it at that time. A friend of his, however, throws a pretty big monkey wrench into this whole theory. Her name is ladonna Woodford, and she would later tell a grand jury that Van Cise was home when she called him at about 6am that morning and that they actually went for a walk in the neighborhood. So she called him because they would go on these walks. I guess I want to see if he wanted to go on a walk. And so they went on their morning walk. Not impossible. 4:30 is the time of the scream. We know she was abducted sometime around then, but really tight for him to have gotten her. Gotten her back to his place, done whatever he was going to do, and then either then calmly go for this stroll with his friend and then come back and dispose of the body or dispose of the body before meeting up with a friend.

[B]

But I'LL know it's not that tight of a timeline. If it were the other situation where he is in the apartment and he's not the one who does it, but someone who's mad that he's in the apartment because he would have left around 4, 4:20 and been home with plenty of time and wouldn't be in a hurried mood because maybe that wasn't the first time at the apartment. Maybe it was just a regular day and he was making it home in time. So I will note that, that I don't think this necessarily rules him out for being in the apartment. Now, I have no indication that they were anything but friends and they could have stayed up all night talking about platonic things as well. So I'm not necessarily saying that meant anything. But I don't think this rules out the fact that he was in the apartment before, especially because he himself says he saw her the night before.

[A]

Now, despite the fact he seems to have a really good alibi, there are reports that call him into further question. It has been said by some that he was obsessed with Jody and we know he named his boat after her. He says he named his boat after her. So this is not like a rumor that's out there. Jody's co worker, the producer who. I'll just say this. If you've watched the documentary, the lady who was her producer, like she almost has too much information. And what I mean by that is I don't trust everything that she says because it just seems like she just was too involved. Like she was at the laundromat and in walks John Van Cise with his laundry and it's like, okay, would you. Okay. Really? And she also says that he called the station that morning looking for Jody. And she said that he had never called the station before and so she thought this was unusual. Now I have a theory about all this I'm about to get to, but I'll just keep going. So he also allegedly met up with a friend the day after Jody disappeared and told the friend that Jody had left his apartment drunk around 11pm this is not what he told the police. The friend would also say he saw some like, deep tracks going the wrong way out of Van Sys's Alley. And he thought, oh, that was, you know, he was rushing off with her in the back of the, the car. And that's what made those tracks. And there's no way to know about that. As we said, Van Sundays died in 2024. Here's what I think happened that night. I don't know if they were in any kind of relationship or not. I kind of think they were. I kind of think something was going on with them. It doesn't matter to me that she said it wasn't. You know, it just, I mean, I don't know, guys. We've all lived life, right? I mean, usually, I hate to say.

[B]

This, the age difference is a big deal. Like that's a big deal. They're not like cohorts in terms of age.

[A]

But it doesn't stop them from having an affair.

[B]

No, no. I think that points more towards having an affair. The fact that they're not just buddies. Right. He's married. I know that maybe they're even separated at this point. But like he's a much older man. My point being they're not just like 20 something year olds living it up because they're both single in the city.

[A]

Right. And I do think he was separated by this point. So, you know, a little less. Whatever. I also think if you're her curious what people think about this, I am less likely to tell my friends about this relationship because I know they're going to judge me and think badly of me if because I'm dating someone who is significantly older than me. I don't know that she was necessarily in a relationship. But I'll tell you what I do think happened. I think he showed her that video that night. Remember, he told police that he showed her the video that he took of her birthday party that he was at right now. The problem with that has always been the timing. When would he have done that? Based on when she left the, the golf course and when she got home, it didn't seem like there was any time for it to have happened. And then she's on the phone with somebody later on, which also seems to confirm there's no time for this to happen. Here's what I think happened. I think he went over at her place, I think took the videotape over to her place and he watched it at her place. And I was going to tell you to check this. I tried to figure out whether or not Jody had a vcr. And she did, because there's a video that taken of her apartment shortly after by the police or by somebody. And they're walking through her apartment. One of the first things they show is her VCR underneath her television. So she could have said to him, hey, just come over, we'll watch the videotape here. So I think she did come over. I think she watched the videotape with Him, I think they had some drinks, just like he told his friend. But she didn't go to his place. He came to hers. And I think that at the end of the day, what happened was he lied, as we often say, not because he killed her, but because he had something to hide. He didn't want police to know that he not only was the last one to see her, but that he was there that morning. So he's always sort of lied about exactly how that went. He's told the truth, but not the whole truth, if that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. No, I think someone was there with her, and he seems the most likely. And he also has said enough things. This is kind of like bridge guy. Now, I'm not saying he's. John Van Cise is guilty. Where Bridge guy, like, puts himself in the situation. John Van Syce says enough. Where it's like, I'm the last one to see her. And there was the video and telling other people, like, she was drunk around me. They were together that night, I think, and I think it's most likely that it was at her apartment.

[A]

One other thing about this that goes what Alan said earlier. Imagine he was there and imagine he stayed overnight. Then she gets that phone call and she's got to leave quickly. I could imagine him saying, well, I'll go ahead and leave because he doesn't want to be seen with her. She doesn't want to be seen with him. They don't want to be seen leaving the apartment complex at the same time. Right. So he leaves, he bids her goodbye. As you said, maybe someone saw him leave. It could have made them mad. Think about this phone call. If he did it, why would he call the station to find out whether or not she was there? If. That doesn't make any sense. Right. If he didn't do it, it could just be a coincidence. Or it could be that he knew she was in a rush to get to the station and wanted to check on her and make sure that she made it. That would be a reason for him to.

[B]

What time did he call the station? Do we know?

[A]

Early. Early. Before anybody knew.

[B]

Before the broadcast.

[A]

Before the broadcast? Yes.

[B]

Was it before the broad. Yes. No, it was before the broadcast because they called the police after the first hour of the broadcast.

[A]

According to the producer lady, he called before anyone knew anything was going on. It was early that morning, but it was before anybody knew anything. Assuming she's telling the truth, I feel.

[B]

Like there's so much attention on him. He willingly did give a lot of information. I think his exact whereabouts were lied about more because of probably the fact that they had something more than just friendship going on. But he gave fingerprints, he gave DNA, and nothing has been linked to him that I think likely he's involved relationally, but not with the abduction or the attack. And he can't say more because this has never come out that they've been anything more than friends. And I still don't know that there's anything more than friends. But there's no one else in her life that we know of who could even be in this close of a position to be at her apartment that night, for example, Unless, let's talk about other potential people. This apartment was close to a campground. It was so close, in fact, that I think the park and the campground, you would be able to see it. They could come over and, you know, use the parking lot, maybe even use the dumpster, for example. Maybe that's where the Coors cans were from. The campground was one of the first places, though, that the police canvassed looking for Jody. Just like the apartment complex, they really canvassed the places that you need to right away. And if the campground was related, the police were on it right away. And they turned up nothing. They looked everywhere, they searched the area, they talked to people. Nothing was turned up there. So you can't completely rule out that it was someone from the campground, especially if it's a transient person who no one would have seen, but that might go along with a white van or a larger vehicle, maybe an RV or something. And if they are, in fact, kind of passing by, you can see why this would be so difficult, because maybe that was the only time they were around, or they passed through often and then never pass by again. But they have no ties to the area. And the other person that has come on people's radar is of course, Brad Millerburn, who's the husband of Jody's friend Patty Niemire. Apparently, after seeing a 2020 episode about the case, Patty, who told police to look into her ex husband. Now, note it's her ex husband at this point, but she may be in a position to know something that no one else would. Apparently, Brad had a weird interest in Jodi, said Patti, even taking her out once in the fall of 1994 when he visited Mason City. Brad apparently attempted to contact Jody early in June of 1995, and Millerburn and Niemeyer signed divorce papers on June 23, 1995. This was just four days before Jody went missing. Witnesses reportedly saw a suspicious man by Jody's apartment Driving a white van on June 25th. That was two days before Jody went missing. And when patty was shown the sketch of the man, the sketch that we haven't seen yet, she said it looked remarkably like Brad. Brad also drove a white ford econoline van at the time of her disappearance. So all of this really comes from patty, and they are exes at this point. But he did drive a white van at the time. Apparently, he did have some sort of interest in Jody. And the timeline is interesting Just because we're looking at the wheel. Weeks, months, days leading up to her disappearance. And it does seem that they had some contact and that he had signed divorce papers Just days before the abduction. Now, land was searched near Brad's home in minnesota, but nothing related to Jody's disappearance turned up. Brad also gave his DNA, and he did take a polygraph test.

[A]

So Brad's still alive. Brad's a pretty good suspect. There's a lot of smoke there, right? I mean, obviously we have sort of these vague reports of a person. We haven't seen the sketch. She looked at the sketch and thinks it's him. I don't know what that means, if it means anything at all. As Alice said, she doesn't like him. Ex husband. I will tell you, we have had people reach out to us in various cases Saying they think their father and brother ex husband is involved in a case. So far, they have not turned out to be. We always turn those tips over. So far, they've not turned out to be. A lot of father's brothers were involved in delphi. None of them turned out to be involved in delphi. You never know. But in this case, this isn't random. They did know each other. He apparently is a little bit of a strange guy. I don't know. Right. Certainly someone the police have looked at. And I don't think could talk about this case without talking about him. Another person you have to talk about is Tony jackson. Tony jackson is a convicted serial rapist who was living in mason city at the time of Jody's disappearance. He's now, I think, in prison for the rest of his life. And he was considered a potential person of interest. In fact, he lived only a couple of blocks away from jody. Apparently, he had written some rap lyrics in prison, at least according to a confidential informant that made investigators think he may have been involved. The lines included, she's a stiffin around tiffin in pillage of silage in a by low low below by a highway in a graveyard. This was specific enough that the police Identified a farm that Jackson apparently had access to in Tiffin, Iowa, that met these various parameters, but nothing was turned up. He is absolutely adamant that he had nothing to do with this murder. I will say this. I don't typically believe anything that convicted felons have to say, particularly convicted serial rapist. If you see the documentary, he is the most convincing person you'll ever see. I mean, the guy, like, when he talks about this, you're like, yeah, he had nothing to do with this, did he? I don't know. Hard to say. Once again, no real connection between him and Jody, but he is sort of a usual suspect person in the area who could have done something like this.

[B]

Then there's Christopher Rayvack, who has been linked to the murder of two women in the Midwest, the 2006 murder of Deidre Harm in Wisconsin and the 2007 murder of Renee Williams in Missouri. He killed himself in 2009 while facing charges for Renee's murder. So he's no longer here. And if he did it, it went to the grave with him. There's somewhat an interesting connection between Kristofer and Jodi. Kravax's girlfriend lived in the other half of the duplex that John Van Sykes lived, where Jodi was known to go. But this promising bit of information didn't go very far because Rayvak's girlfriend moved out months before Van Syke moved in. So though on paper it may seem like there was something sort of close connection, just even in geography likely, the timing doesn't actually work out.

[A]

So if you've noticed, this case popping into the news recently has been about this Christopher Rayvak. There have been lots of different articles. Apparently he's been connected to maybe another murder. Not a good guy, obviously. Once again, you have a serial killer in the area. When someone disappears, you always think about that being a possibility. The best theory you can come up with is that he and his girlfriend were sort of on the outs and he figured out where she was living and he went there. She wasn't there anymore, she'd already moved out. But he didn't know that at the time. He happens to be there when Jodie's coming over. He sees her, he develops a fascination with her, and then he decides, I'm going to take her and kill her in the same way. Very, very little to actually get connect these people. Now maybe the police know something that we don't know. That's obviously a possibility, at least right now. It's not a lot, right? Not a lot to Go on. To tie him to Jody's disappearance. The other thing you have to consider is that it's none of these people we've mentioned and then in fact, it is some unknown stalker. Recall, as we've said, Jody was a public person and she had told friends in the weeks leading up to her disappearance about these strange phone calls. She had this interaction with a man in a white truck. He was following her. You know, she was thinking about changing her phone number. She had reported some of these incidents to the police. Then you have this whole thing about the beer cans in the parking lot. You think, well, maybe someone was watching her and sort of gaining an understanding of her movements and abducted her before work. Now, this theory makes sense, but there's no way of knowing who could be the perpetrator. Pretty much everyone in the viewing area of Mason City then becomes a possible suspect. So if it's someone like that, you're gonna need something like the Brad Millerbrand thing, where you have a relative, a ex wife, a daughter, someone, a friend who knows something, saw something, didn't realize it was important, didn't realize there was a connection, and reports it to the police. This case is very old, it's 30 years old, but it can be solved. Before we talk about what we think happened, I want to repeat that phone number. The Mason city Police Department, 641-421-3636. So my theory of this case, number one, I don't think it's John Van Cise. I just don't think it is. I mean, I don't know. Number one, I think he has a pretty good alibi. It's possible. He obviously brings a lot of suspicion on himself. And sometimes people who commit the crime do that, right? So you can't say, surely if he'd done it, he wouldn't be doing all the things he was doing to bring attention to on himself. But I do think it makes it less likely that it's him, that he's bringing all that attention on himself. And honestly, if he wanted to do something to Jody, he didn't really have to do it like this. You know, I think that's something that's worth remembering. Like this is a blitz attack by someone who was waiting outside her apartment, who had to attack her in the open. Like the only way they could get her was to do in the open. Now look, it was 4 o' clock in the morning. Morning, right. It was dark. These are all advantages that the attacker has, but they still are in public. There still could be someone driving by and right that moment, leaving their apartment. And right that moment, there's. You're taking so much risk to attack someone in the open. Ted Bundy, when he killed people, the first thing he would do is he would gain their trust to get them in his vehicle so that he then had power over them, he could kill them. Right. This person obviously did not feel like they had the ability to do that. They did not have the ability to get her into a place that was isolated so that they could attack her without risk of discovery. They needed to strike quickly in that morning and get her in their car and get her out of there to do what they wanted to do. Vance Ice didn't have to do that. So unless, I guess it's possible, it's not a blitz attack. They're literally walking out of the apartment together. And in the 10 seconds it takes her to walk to their passenger side, she says something that so enrages him that he attacks her right there. I mean, I guess that's possible. Right? But that is the only thing that really makes sense with him. She could have just gone over to his apartment and he attacks her. I mean, he could have done it at her apartment. I just don't feel like he would do this. I think this is her out on.

[B]

The boat that he named after her and threw her overboard.

[A]

They were in the water when he got done with her.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I mean, exactly. I think this is someone who was obsessed with her, Whether it's Brad or some sort of stalker. I mean, I think that's what it was. I think they're obsessed with her. I think they had been scoping out her place. I think they had learned her movements. It is weird to me that they waited. It's weird to me that when she didn't leave when she normally left, that they didn't leave too, because they don't even know. Right? Like, for all they know, she's not going to work that day. But for whatever reason, I think they did wait. And I mean, I don't know if the police will ever solve the sketch or not. I hope they do, but I think when they do, that's the scenario it's going to be. It's someone who became obsessed with her, who. In that it's not someone who just happened to see her and she was leaving. That didn't happen. They had to be there waiting on her, ready to strike when she walked out of her apartment. And they did it in a very quick manner, took control of her, got her out of there, murdered her Dumped her body somewhere that she hasn't been found to this day. I hope this is one of those cases where a hunter or somebody in nature is walking by. Find her body and suddenly there's a piece of evidence that reveals who did it.

[B]

Yeah. As much smoke as there is around John Van Sykes and some other named people. Anyone who's named here, I think if they have enough information, they could have moved forward on them. So it might be that they had their eye on Brad or someone. Or they're just waiting for one more piece of information, move forward. But with 30 years since this happened, I would think we'd see a lot more action if they knew who it was. I think it was a planned attack. I don't think this was a crime of opportunity because it's an odd hour, 4:30 in the morning when it's still dark. She's a public figure. It had to have happened so quickly because of the short amount of time between her door and the car. You'd have to be driving by, be able to stop, know she goes to the passenger side versus the driver's side. There's too many things that indicate the person knew her actions that they did this. Now, the waiting thing is strange except that I do think someone was probably at her apartment that night. And this person, I think, has been stalking her for a long time and probably has nothing better to do in the sense of has may be there even all night and had seen that someone was in there with her and didn't care. He was enraged by this. Maybe he had seen this develop. Maybe it was some sort of. He thought that the person she was with. I don't think whoever she was with, it was the first time that person had been over to her apartment. So I think it was someone known. And that's why I think the stalker. I'm gonna call them a stalker because I don't know who it is. Is someone who's been watching her. Also knew who was going into her apartment and was going to. He had decided what he was going to do even if it was an hour and a half late. He knew her actions so well that he was going to attack her because of that dragging, the drag marks. It just seems so inflamed with passion and anger directed at her when she didn't do anything at 4:30 in the morning except be late. I don't think she said anything to set this person off. This person already had in their mind that I. They were going to do this to her. And I think she was Murdered soon after. I don't think it was a situation where they were going to abduct her and make her, you know, their concubine because she was much too smart. They knew they couldn't control her. It was going to be a situation I think of. If I can't have her, nobody can.

[A]

And you know, you mentioned rage. And I think it's worth noting, some of these people, the stalkers, they are really disturbed and they believe they have a personal relationship with people they see on the television. You know, they believe they're in a relationship with them. I mean, you see that sometimes. And they could have viewed this as a massive betrayal. If there was someone. We don't know if there was anybody there. You know, maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. But if there was somebody there and they saw that, they could have been enraged by that because it's a massive betrayal that she was cheating on them, she had betrayed their love. And another reason that on that night in particular, like, why this day? Right. Why did they choose this day particularly? Because she's late. You know, if it's somebody's been watching her for night after night and they were going to pick a day, doesn't seem like it'd be the day that she was running late. Right. But nevertheless, it was. Why? Well, possibly it's because they were triggered by something that we don't even know about. Like, we don't know. And I'll just say this, you know, going back to the notion that someone could have been there. We don't know about it. Remember, we just talked about the Suzanne Morphew case and Suzanne was having a long term affair with someone and no one in her life knew about that. And he didn't come forward when she went missing. And they only found him just out of randomness. Right. Like, and it took the FBI forever to find the guy. It's because she had bought a pen to try and record Barry having an affair. And they put two and two together and found that guy. If that hadn't happened, we never would have known about that. We never would have known about him. Same thing could have happened here. There could be a third party in this case who actually has a lot of information but has never come forward. Or it's John Van Cise. And so he did sort of give the information in the way that he could without implicating himself. So they really did watch the video that night. But he doesn't want to say he came over to her place to watch it. So he says they Watched it at his place instead. Right. Like it's a lie, but he's trying to get as much truth out as possible. We don't know. This is all speculation, but I think Alice has nailed it. I mean, I think it probably was someone obsessed with her who was enraged with her and hence the violence of this attack and the speed with which they could carry it out. Well, look, if you're out there and you have any information about this, please do contact the police. But if you don't want to contact them, you can always reach out to us. We're always happy to be an intermediary for you between yourself and law enforcement. If you have thoughts on this case, if you have other cases you want to recommend, shoot us an email prosecutorspodmail.com prosecutors pod for all your social media. If you'd like to watch us record these episodes early, you can join Patreon for as little as $3 a month. If you just want to hear them without ads and get them a few days before release, Patreon will do that for you as well. Join us on the gallery. It's the best place to have conversations with us and members of the listening audience about all these cases. I think you'll have a lot of fun doing that. Well, Alice, we've ran a little long today, so I'm going to skip questions, but I do want to ask, do you have anything else you want to say before we sign off?

[B]

I really do hope there are answers. For Jody, it's devastating because I think it strikes at the fear of any woman who walks alone at night, who lives alone, who parks their car in an open area that's not an attached garage. There's a reason that I run to my car even from, like, the grocery store. I generally just kind of walk a little faster to my car, and it's because of cases like this. So I really hope for her sake, for her family's sake, that they clearly love her so much they have not given up hope in terms of keeping the pressure and the media attention on her. And most of all, I want the person who did this to her to be brought to justice. I do think they're out there. And if you do something like this, you're probably a very violent person to other people. You probably have been obsessed with other people as well. And there could be countless other victims that we just don't know about. So for all women's sake and especially for Jodi's sake, I do hope that this case is brought to justice soon.

[A]

And the One thing I will say on a slightly happier note is I think this episode comes out the week of Thanksgiving. So if that's true, and even if it's not, Happy Thanksgiving to all our listeners. We love you guys. Thank you. We're very thankful for you and everything you have done for us and for your continued support this and legal briefs. I hope you guys will stick around for many years to come. Alright, well, we'll be back next week with a new case. But until then, I'm Brett.

[B]

And I'm Alice.

[A]

And we are the prosecutors. All right.

[B]

It's quite the weekend. Yeah, like Halloween. Like Halloween was Friday and it seems like a lifetime ago, you know? Yeah.

[A]

Now it's Christmas time.

[B]

I know. I'm so excited.

[A]

Okay, you ready?

[B]

I'm ready.

[A]

Okay. Oh, but I do need a word for you. Let's see.

[B]

Merry christmas, y'. All. Now I have to pick up leaves. Let's be honest, I'm not gonna pick up leaves. They'll disintegrate. Right. So am I sneezing because of the dusting? I don't know. I don't know what's happening. Hold on, I'm gonna. I'm gonna call them. Sam.

[A]

This November action is free on Pluto tv. Go on the run with Jack Reacher. Every suspect was a train killer. Then buckle up for drive. World War Z.

[B]

Every human being we save.

[A]

Just one less fight and Charlie's Angels.

[B]

Damn, I hate to fly.

[A]

Launch into sci fi adventure with the fifth Element and laugh through the mayhem in Tropic Thunder. What is going on here? All the thrills, all for free. Pluto TV Stream now. Pay never. Twilio empowers the builders who shape tomorrow. Whether you're scaling a startup or transforming an enterprise, you need a customer engagement platform that keeps up. Twilio gives you the power to build, test and scale with confidence, connecting data, AI and customer communication into one seamless open system. No silos, no barriers. Just everything you need to bring your biggest ideas to life. Learn [e-mail] VRBO's last minute deals make.

[B]

Chasing fresh mountain powder incredibly easy. With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can get epic pow freshies, first tracks and more. Find last minute deals with the last minute filter on the app. Book a private vacation rental [e-mail].