Loading summary
Transcript145 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Jessi Pere. And I'm Andy. Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
- [00:45]
B
I'm brett.
- [00:46]
A
And I'm alice.
- [00:48]
B
And we are the prosecut. Today on the Prosecutors. Four girls are tragically killed in a house fire. It only gets worse when police say it was intentionally set. We discuss the Flora fire. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my indis liga co host, Alice.
- [01:50]
C
I have no idea what language that was, but it was incredibly well done and it might be the last beautiful thing we talk about because today's case is devastating.
- [01:59]
B
So true. That is lovely. In Icelandic, maybe, I don't know, maybe.
- [02:05]
C
Wait, Icelandic?
- [02:06]
B
Icelandic.
- [02:06]
C
It sounds like, you know, that's one of my favorite. It sounded Scandinavian. Yes, it is one of my favorite places in the world that I've ever been.
- [02:14]
B
It's the place where you almost died, right? You slid down a mountain into the Continental Divide or something.
- [02:20]
C
No, I jumped into the Continental Divide willingly slid off a glacier. Two different situations, both happen in Iceland. You are correct. I almost died in Alaska when I tried to go off trail in Denali and slid down a mountain. No Continental Divide in Alaska. But I did almost fall to my death. But I'm alive, so it's fine.
- [02:40]
B
Yes, as Sophie points out, where hasn't Alice almost died? She has so many of these stories, it's hard to even believe it. But as Alice said, this is the last happy moments we'll have because this is a true crime podcast and this is one of the most devastating stories in true crime. It's an important one. It's one that gets overshadowed sometimes. It's one that has been requested many times by folks out there and it's one that we are happy to cover.
- [03:08]
C
And it's truly a devastating story as you'll see if you've not heard of this case. I'm so glad that you're tuning in today. This takes us back to the summer of 2016. Galen Rose moved with her four daughters to 103 E. Columbia St. In Florida, Indiana, looking for a Fresh start. I mean, this is just an incredible story, right? Mom with her four kids, she is making it happen in this idyllic, small, little town. And this move was going to be promising for them because they were able to rent a duplex for just $500 a month. And Galen secured a job at a nearby gas station to pay for this. Meanwhile, her daughters, Kiana Davis, who was 11, Kiara Phillips, who was nine, Cariel McDonald, who was seven, and Keone Welch was five, they'd all started school, and they got involved right away. They were so good at being plugged into their community. They were involved with cheerleading, and they were quickly making new friends. In Flora, Indiana, on November 21, the family was doing what many do on Sundays. They were preparing for the week ahead. And after a typical day, Galen put her four daughters to bed upstairs in their bunk beds, and she went downstairs to her bedroom and expecting to have a typical night. But the night was anything but typical. Before sunrise, the house was engulfed in flames. The fire would claim the lives of all four little girls in the home and change the Flora community forever.
- [04:39]
B
So the family, they were relative newcomers to Flora, but when people talked about this, as Alice said, they very quickly became plugged into their community. The little girls were always playing outside. Galen was someone who was very friendly. Not a huge town, so everybody knew each other. And when this happened, it really was devastating to the community. And initially, it's a tragic fire. This horrible thing has happened. But the more people looked into it, the more they began to think this might have been an intentional fire. And we're going to start with September 15, 2016, which is a few months before the fire. When something happens, that is the kind of thing that when people see it, makes them wonder. It may be completely unrelated, but nevertheless, it's an important thing. So we wanted to talk about it. An insurance policy was taken out on 103 E. Columbia St. The policy contained liability coverage for the dwelling of $392,882. Now, appraisal that had been done five days prior to this listed the home's appraised value at $45,000. So significantly more than what the home appraised for. I mean, not quite 10 times, but approaching it. Couple things about this that are worth knowing. This insurance policy is taken out by the entity that owns the home. It is a as in a lot of places. It's a rental company, and they own multiple properties around town. They probably took a lot of insurance policies out on all of these properties. I am not someone who is in commercial real estate? I've never owned apartments, but it is my understanding that oftentimes the insurance policies, and I say all this just because obviously this raises people's suspicions. Oftentimes insurance policies on rental properties are for significantly more than the value of the property. Why is that? Because this is a money making endeavor. So you're not only covering for the cost of the building, you're also also thinking about lost revenue from rental, which you can do, you know, indefinitely. Right, as long as the home is there. So while this seems like a pretty big multiple for just the value of the property, it may not be that unusual in this sort of commercial real estate transaction. Okay, so that's September 15th. Let's jump forward to November 21st, 2016. This is the day when this happens. As Alice said, the day before had been perfectly normal. No indication of any problems. Everybody goes to sleep. And then around 3am, Galen wakes up to the smell of smoke. Now, she had been asleep in her first floor bedroom. Her four daughters had been asleep in bunk beds upstairs. And sort of the way this building is constructed, a lot of you who've either lived in duplexes or just know them, they're very vertical type buildings, right? Not so much here, but in a lot of places you're kind of packing a lot in together. This way you can do a couple families and you get more space and it goes straight up so you can build more, etc. Etc. So basically they had this bedroom on the first floor and then to get to the girls bedroom, you had to go up a flight of steps, but then you had to turn a corner and go up a couple more steps and then you're in the room. Honestly, a really terrible location when something like this happens because to get up there is rather difficult. Now you may have noticed she wakes up because she smells smoke. The fact that she wakes up because she smells smoke and not because a smoke detector goes off is going to be important later on. But she smells smoke. And when she wakes up, there's fire everywhere. It's spreading throughout the house. She can hear her daughter's yelling from the upstairs bedroom. She tries to get up the stairs. But, you know, I've never been in a house fire, but I've talked to people who have been and it is impossible, I think if you've never experienced it, if you've never been in sort of a very smoky area, to really understand how difficult it is. It's not like in the movies, like you hit a wall of smoke and you Breathe it in. You're on the ground coughing, right? I mean, it's a very difficult thing. She's trying to get upstairs. There's so much smoke. The flames are now in the stairwell. She can't get up there. And so she decides the only thing she can do is run outside, try and get help, try and get the firefighters, try and get the police. This duplex, it's a duplex because it actually houses two different apartments. The other side was occupied by a woman and her two children. They were able to escape the fire unharmed.
- [09:37]
C
So at 3:35am that's when the first 911 call was placed. Several other subsequent calls were made by neighbors and witnesses because this fire is blazing. First on the scene were a Flora police officer, Josh Dissinger, and a Carroll county sheriff's deputy, Drew Yoder. They tried desperately to rescue the little girls trapped inside the home. And this is a devastating scene because as they arrived, it doesn't matter if you're a firefighter, as long as you're there as an emergency respondent. They are doing everything they can to save these kids. Yoder rushed into the burning building three times, unsuccessfully, before Dissinger ripped him from the flames on the third attempt because it was absolutely going to be impossible. He was going to meet his own end without being able to save the girls if he continued. Both men suffered from injuries related to smoke inhalation, and Yoder was familiar with these four girls and their mother, Galen, because, like we said, this is a small town. He would often see these girls outside playing. They were very friendly. He went to the game gas station where Galen worked, and this is just devastating. He knew them not just because he saw them, but because they had pleasantries all the time. He would say this about the family, that those girls were always outside on.
- [10:55]
A
A nice day, dancing around.
- [10:57]
C
And the greatest thing is they would all stop, smile and just wave as you passed by. And he also said seeing Galen smile behind the counter was always a great sight to see. She would always say, officer Yoder, how was your day? Or tell me, be safe as I walked out the door, even when I wasn't on duty. Truly, these seem just like kind people who have become part of the Flora community so that even the first responders remember them. And they are. They're always around town. They see a lot of people. But Galen and her four girls made an impression on Officer Yoder.
- [11:33]
B
And if you want to experience sort of the weight that someone like Officer Yoder has, they have released the dash cam footage and the body cam. It's not body cam, actually. You can't see anything, but you can hear. So they've released that. They released it a few years after this. And Yoder, he's speeding to get there. He jumps out of his car. He runs right into the building. And you can hear him start coughing almost immediately. And he's, like, trying to get to the girls, and he's saying, I can't get up there. He, like, comes out to get his breath. He goes back in. He then jumps in his squad car. He's also a volunteer fireman. Speeds down to the fire station, jumps out, tells the fire station, you got to get down here. The house on fire. There's people inside. Grabs his oxygen pack, goes back to the house, throws on the oxygen, goes inside. He's trying to fight. And then you can actually hear when the oxygen runs out. The alarm starts going off. So, you know, he's run out of oxygen. The fire is getting worse. He's trying to get up there, and they actually. They have to pull him out. I mean, he barely survives. And if you watch this, you know, they pull him out, and then they are able to get to the girls. They get up to them, the firefighter zoo, and they get them out. But unfortunately, by that point, it was too late. They had already passed away. And that's just. This all happens in a matter of minutes. It's terrifying how quickly a fire like this can spread. And essentially, you know, this. This house, it's almost like a chimney effect, right? Like, you've got the flames, and they just are rushing up that stairwell, and the smoke is filling the upstairs, and it's a very difficult situation. That's the first thing I wanted to note. The second thing, Carroll County. You're probably familiar with Carroll County. This is Carroll County, Indiana. This is Delphi. This is the exact same jurisdiction that would deal with that very shortly after this. Remember, we're talking November 21st. The Delphi girls were murdered February 13th, 14th of 2017. If you've watched anything about this Doug Carter, he's all over this case. When they give updates, it's him giving them to you. So it's a very sort of, you know, strange thing. Think about true crime and how many different places there are where things can happen, where you can have these great tragedies. And there were two that hit this one relatively small county in this relatively short period of time. So Galen, the mom, she was severely injured from her attempts to get to her girls. She had to be airlifted to Eskenazi Burn center in Indianapolis. And she had suffered burns to most of her body, including her corneas. Like, the fire was so bad, the heat was so bad, it actually damaged her corneas. So they were able to extinguish this fire, but unfortunately, it was too late. None of the girls could be saved, and they all died from asphyxiation and inhalation of carbon monoxide and soot. You know, even though the flames didn't get to them, the smoke just overwhelmed them. And unfortunately, they passed away. And this was crushing for the whole community. They knew these girls, they love these girls, and they lost them in this one horrific night. And the community rallied behind Galen and these four little girls. There were reports about vigils that were held. There was a memorial that was built outside the home, which became surrounded by stuffed animals, candles, and messages of love and support. So as you often see in this tragedy, in this terrible thing that happened, you do see the best of people coming out. But now we want to know, how could this happen? And why did it happen?
- [15:26]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. With winter coming upon us, my skin is getting so dry. That's why I love having one skin as part of my nightly routine. I absolutely love their lip mask mask which has been bringing new life to my chapped lips. At the core is their patented OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells. The root cause of wrinkles, creppiness and loss of elasticity, all key signs of skin aging. And these results have now been validated in five different clinical studies. They're known for cult skincare favorites like OS one Body, OS one face and OS one eye. One Skin stands out for their science first approach to skin aging deliver hydration barrier support and powerful longevity benefits in every product.
- [16:49]
C
I absolutely love it.
- [16:50]
A
I use the body face and Eye OS 1 and it has made a huge difference in my skin. They are certified safe for sensitive skin too. One Skin products are free from over 1500 harsh or irritating ingredients. They're dermatologists tested and have been awarded the national Eczema association seal of acceptance. Oneskin also just launched their limited edition holiday sets including the Nightly Rewind Gift set, which is one of those rare gifts that's both impressive and genuinely useful, providing an upgrade to anyone's nightly routine. Featuring their best selling face moisturizer, their new peptide lip mask and a cooling Gua Sha tool, each component of the set is designed to work together as your body enters its its natural nightly repair mode, helping renew skin at the cellular level. For a stronger, smoother and more resilient skin. For a limited time, try OneSkin for 15% off using code prosecutors at OneSkin Co Prosecutors after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. It's that season, the holiday events and.
- [18:04]
C
Parties are about to be in full.
- [18:06]
A
Swing and getting ready always feels like such hassle. There's too much makeup, too many steps and never enough time and a lot of the makeup that's out there just doesn't look natural. It feels like a mask and it just feels too heavy on my face and I'm not really always sure the best way to do my makeup. Enter Jones Road Beauty Jones Road Beauty is a minimalist makeup brand founded by makeup artist Bobbi Brown that creates versatile and easy to use products that simplify your routine. Every formula is packed with clean, skin loving ingredients. Starting November 6, Jones Road is launching their most giftable and exclusive holiday collection yet. All five limited edition kits in the collection are trios that include new holiday shades, products and packaging. So whether you're gifting or getting ready for holiday parties, these curated sets take the guesswork out of your makeup routine. All Jones Road Beauty products are actually good for your skin. Their products look and feel natural, like you're not wearing any makeup at all. You can create this effortless natural no makeup makeup look at your fingertips. And their best seller is Miracle Balm, the ultimate makeup skincare hybrid product that gives a natural glow. This holiday season, simplify your routine with makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional. And don't miss out on their limited edition holiday sets. They won't be here for long and once they're gone, they're gone. Also, as a treat for our listeners, you'll get a free cool gloss on your first purchase. When you use Code Prosecutors at checkout, just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code Prosecutors at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you.
- [20:04]
C
So the next day on November 22nd. The Indiana State Fire Marshal's office initially ruled this fire as undetermined, citing difficulties determining the cause. Due to the amount of damage to the structure, they believed the fire had started in the kitchen, possibly behind the refrigerator. Investigators discovered that there were no batteries in the smoke alarm on the second floor. Hence when we said earlier that Galen the mom woke up smelling smoke. At that point, it's really too late already. And no alarm had gone off.
- [20:35]
B
And just a little bit of the law, for those of you who don't know, maybe if you're a landlord out there. So they had only moved in a few months before. And generally speaking, it is the responsibility of the landlord to ensure they're working smoke alarms, particularly when someone moves in initially, because, you know, you move into an apartment, you just assume your smoke alarms work. I actually, when I was in private practice briefly in dc, I worked with a group called Bread for the City. And one of the things they did was sort of hold, for lack of a better word, slum lords accountable. We would go around to these low income housing places, A lot of people who didn't speak any English, didn't have any money, and we would have the fire inspectors and the police and everything. And it was always amazing. Like as we're going through the apartments, the slumlord guys and their maintenance crews would be right ahead of us replacing batteries and all the smokestairs. They just happened to be there that day making sure the smoke detectors work. So this is something that should have been done and should have been done by that rental company we mentioned earlier. We're going to talk some about a lawsuit that's going to arise from this. But yes, this is at least initially the responsibility of the landlord. It's really always a responsibility landlord. But obviously if you've been living somewhere for a while and your smoke detector starts beeping, you probably should replace the batteries. But they wouldn't have known there were no batteries in the smoke detector and did not know that until this investigation was done.
- [22:11]
C
So Fast forward to January 28, 2017. The Indiana Department of Homeland Security issued a news release calling the fire in incendiary after accelerants were found in multiple locations of the building. At the same time, a reward fund was established for information leading to an arrest. So kind of in layman's terms, they found basically like things that will make a fire explode and keep going really quickly. And that makes sense, right, because they were unable to determine the cause of the fire because it had burned so badly. Usually the way things are done. This is why, by the way, this is a safety tip. When you sleep at night, close all the doors, because that slows down fires in the way that they spread. But when you're giving them time, you would think if the police are coming within minutes, if the fire department's coming a minute after that, they should be able to control this fire. But they weren't able to hear. And part of the reason is they had accelerants throughout the house. So basically, it would like hopscotch. As it caught fire to the next place, it would burn hotter and brighter than a fire department was able to fight it. And when you see that, there's usually concern of arson, someone who doesn't want the fire to be out soon, because unfortunately, the hotter you burn, the longer you burn, the less of a crime scene is left behind to be able to figure out what was happening. Now, that same day, members of the Red Cross and Flora fire department walked door to door checking smoke detectors. Kind of like Brett noted when he was going out with bread for the city. And they were all installing new detectors in homes that didn't have one or had one that didn't work. But ironically, it has been reported that rentals were not eligible for this free replacement by the Red Cross and the Flora fire department. So even if for some reason they had found out that there weren't batteries in the smoke detectors, the apartment where the girls died actually would not even have been eligible to participate in this program. So this is not a situation where they were just a couple months too late. They weren't even eligible for this program.
- [24:10]
B
And you can understand why that is, right? The landlord should do. Shouldn't be the responsibility of the charities to replace batteries in a rental smoke alarm. You know, that should be something the landlord should do. So it's like you want them to all have batteries, but you don't want to take the onus off the people who own these buildings and are renting them out to do it. So I think that's why they were not not allowed or it was not part of the program.
- [24:38]
C
Now, for months, the family and the public waited for any information, but nothing came in. Early June of 2017. So this is seven months later, the Indiana state Police said that they were questioning persons of interest, but they had no suspects.
- [24:51]
B
And one thing I want you to remember as we go through this is something Alice talked about earlier, and it's this notion of accelerants. So January 28th, you have this sort of report reporting that accelerants were found, and that is what leads us to believe this is an arson. Hold that in your mind because we're going to return to that later. Then things get weird. Some weird stuff that happens, right? So, June 23, 2017, Dennis Randall, who's the fire investigator with the Indiana State Marshal's office, who's handling the case, he resigns. And he resigns amid public scrutiny of his handling of the case. It turns out that he is the father of Adam Randall, who is the chief of the Flora Fire Department at the time. Now, I don't necessarily think there was any reason really for Hinderizan, but by this point, it didn't take long for people to start to wonder whether or not there was some sort of COVID up. You know, is the fire department covering this up? Is this some sort of inside job, like, what's going on here? And so people started to really scrutinize the fire department, the fire chief, the fire investigators. And there was just a little too much. There was a little too much closeness here. And we talked about this before. We talked about this and we talked about the Allen Greenberg case, the appearance of impropriety. Whether there is or not. When you have sort of like, who watches the watchdog, right? When you've got the person who's supposed to be supervising and the person he's supervising is his son, you don't want that, right? You want an independent review because, you know, you have the local fire chief saying, hey, this is arson. I mean, we want to know whether it is, and we want to know where it started and everything else. Later that same day, arson investigators amended their findings, saying that accelerants were only found in one room of the home, but they retained the arson classification. So very important thing has happened here, and we see this in a lot of cases because information is always difficult to come by and remember where we are. We're in Indiana, we're in Carroll county, and what do we know about. In Carroll County, Indiana? And Indiana in general, they hate giving information. Like, they just hate giving information. And you're going to see that again in this case. And it's going to be just as frustrating in this case as it was in the Delphi case. But initially, you have this report of multiple places where you find accelerants. And that's like, wow, we got an arson here. Multiple places. But then it's like, well, we really only saw accelerants in one room. Now, why is that significant? Well, number one, you have accelerants in your Home right now, if you look underneath the cupboard in your kitchen, you probably have accelerants of some sort. I mean, finding accelerants in one room, in one place is not necessarily as significant as finding it in multiple places. And we're going to find out later that it's not even that clear that we have that much when it comes to accelerants. And it's just, you're starting to get a feeling that maybe this investigation wasn't as thorough as we would like it to be. And it wasn't long before this began to take on a racial characteristic that became sort of a political issue. These girls were all black. All of the firefighters, the fire chief, everybody else are all white. And so in October 2017, on the 26th, you have the NAACP who comes in and they announced during a press conference that they would be joining the investigation. And there is this indication that maybe people aren't looking into this as hard as they should because of the race of these little girls. On that same day, and you can watch this, too. Superintendent Doug Carter has a press conference, the Indiana State Police. And as he often is, he's very passionate, if you've ever seen him. He's a very passionate person. And he is very passionate in saying that he is deeply insulted that anyone would suggest that, and that this is a case that he desperately wants to solve and raise has nothing to do with it. And there is no cover up. There is no attempt to hide anything. They are doing everything they can to figure out who was involved in this fire.
- [29:18]
C
This is all really heavy, right? I can't even imagine what Galen is feeling right now. She's been robbed of her four daughters. And then the added kind of tragedy on top of that, thinking that this is an arson, a crime, and then all of a sudden get whiplash and say, well, maybe, maybe not. But there's clearly an active investigation. The amount of emotional toll this is taking on her has got to be immense. Now, November 11, 2017, almost a whole year after the fire, Carroll county prosecutor Robert Ives announced that he would be stepping down effective the end of the year.
- [29:54]
B
And you may recognize the name Robert Ives because Robert Ives was the prosecutor in the Delphi case. He is the prosecutor who cryptically told the Day on the Hill podcast that there were unusual aspects to the murder and unusual staging, which, frankly, in many ways set the stage for the Odinism thing. I forget exactly how he said it was. Something like there are unusual aspects or even ritualistic aspects, but not what you would expect. Something like that and that got everybody's brains going crazy. And then that all sort of like when Odinism became the conspiracy du jour, it all connected in with him. So he was also the prosecutor on this case. He resigns and once again sort of throws it into a little bit confusion.
- [30:41]
C
So if you needed more inputs to make a conspiracy theory, here I have more for you. Because on November 14, 2017, Adam Randall, remember Adam Randall's dad, who previously stepped down because people were like, wait a second, this doesn't look good. He himself resigns. A year after the fire, one week before the anniversary, in fact, of the fire, Adam, who had been the chief since 2014, reported up to Josh Ayers. He was the president of the Florida Town council. You may be thinking, why are you telling me this? Why do I care that he reports up to the president of the town council? This is where it gets interesting. Josh Ayers owned and rented the home where those four girls had lost their lives in the fire. So these resignations and closeness to Ayers left the public and the family uneasy about the integrity of the investigation.
- [31:32]
B
So you have Ayers, he's the one who owns the rental company. And so you have all these sort of connections, right? And look, what's the reality of the situation here? There's probably nothing. There's probably no conspiracy, there's probably no cover up. But it doesn't take much in today's day and age for people's minds to go crazy. And you add in the fact that you didn't have the smoke detector, it wasn't properly functioning, just to keep going back to Ellen Greenberg, right? Like it's important that we not figure out what happened here because it might make us look bad, like we didn't burn the house down. But if we were really able to lay this out, it's going to look even worse that we didn't have a fire detector because. Or a smoke detector because if we'd had a smoke detector, you know, none of this would happen, right? That sort of thing. So you have this sort of bubbling thing that's happening. And what had united the community in its grief is now ripping it apart. And people are picking sides and they're throwing accusations and people are resigning, they're losing their jobs. Everything's getting kind of crazy. So something smart happens here. If you're in Philadelphia and you're listening. So the Indiana State Police. This December of 2017, things have gotten crazy. The NAACP is involved. The fire chiefs resigning. They request a peer review of the investigation from the Indianapolis Fire Department. So I'm just going to go on a limb. It's in the same state, but I'm gonna go on a limb and say the Indianapolis Fire Department doesn't really care what's going on in Carroll County. They got bigger problems in Indianapolis. So they review this entire investigation. Now, as we talked about once again, Ellen Greenberg, the review is a review of the information gathered. So there is a sort of garbage in, garbage out problem where depending on how flawed your initial investigation is, the review of the investigation is going to be flawed as well. But they examine the witness or reports of people who were present at the time of the fire. These included firefighters, police officers, witnesses, people who lived nearby. And they did conduct, unlike in Philadelphia with Ellen Greenberg, they actually did do some investigation. They went down to the scene, the building had been preserved. They conducted a physical examination of the scene. And A month later, January 31, 2018, they released their findings. Now, I say this as if there's a report you can go out and read. There's not because this is Indiana and in Indiana there is no information. So it's not out there. But one thing they do confirm is that they believe this fire was intentionally set.
- [34:15]
C
Then nothing. I mean that is, that's like additional bombshell news. But another year goes by. November 16, 2018, Galen Rose filed a federal wrongful death lawsuit against Josh Ayers, his business partner Troy Helderman and the company they owned called Birch Tree Holdings. She also included Whirlpool and Sears due to an allegedly defective range appliance. In this lawsuit, Galen alleged that she had complained about a lack of working smoke detectors, non functioning electrical outlets and.
- [34:49]
A
Non locking doors in the home.
- [34:50]
C
Before this fire, the electrical outlets that she was complaining about were in the kitchen. Now this suit alleged that the non locking doors included the back doors. Those of you who have rented or are renters or own rental properties, there's like habitability laws in every state of what you have to provide. One of those things, in addition to smoke detectors are like doors that lock so that you can be secure in the home that you're in. And the, the door that wasn't locking were the back doors. Now Ayers had attempted a repair, but it had failed. I'm not sure how hard it is to like get a lock to work. I don't know, like change it out, change the door, whatever. But there you have it. Those are the facts in the allegation of the lawsuit.
- [35:37]
B
So I have my own conspiracy theory about this case, but I'm, I'll save it for later. It involves a lot of probably libelous statements. But okay, so remember, we're talking about an arson, right? We're talking about a fire. So it's a crime. And we're trying to figure out a few things. One of them is who did it. But before you can get to who did it, you got to get to it was done right? Like you got to get to there was actually an arson here. That's the first step. Then you get to who did it on the who did it side. By the way, we're not done with this episode. At no point in this episode will we give you a suspect. At no point in this episode will we say there was a strange white van parked outside. You know, we're not going to tell you about boyfriends or debtors or anything. I mean, we're about to read you a letter that might give some possible suspect, but we're not going to have much in the way of suspects. And so when you're thinking about the like, why did this happen? Is it arson? This lawsuit is interesting for a few reasons. Number one, note what all Galen is alleging it's a civil suit, so she's covering all her bases. One of the bases would be that the non locking doors, someone was able to break into the house, set a fire, then we didn't wake up because of the smoke detectors that weren't working right. That's one sort of theory of liability. Another theory of liability. The electrical appliances from Sears and Whirlpool were defective. Caused a spark, they caused a fire. We didn't wake up because the smoke detector didn't go off. Theory of liability that now gets you two different people that you can target. Third possibility, Ayers. He didn't just try and fix the door, he tried to fix the non working electrical outlets. So errors tries to fix some electrical outlets, fails does it in such a way that creates a fire hazard. Fire starts, smoke detector doesn't work. And now you're doubly responsible because not only are you responsible because you didn't fix the smoke detector, but you're also responsible for the electrical thing. Now recall, if you're thinking about this from a perspective like bring your conspiracy in. So who does it benefit to say this is an arson? Well, to some extent it benefits heirs and it benefits Birch Tree holdings because in a civil lawsuit, proximate cause is an issue and a defense. And if you can say, look, this was an arson with accelerants and frankly, even if the smoke detectors had been working, it wouldn't have mattered because. Because this is an arson with accelerants, the fire will move more quickly than normal, it will spread faster. And even if the smoke detector had gone off, it wouldn't matter. They wouldn't have woken up. Therefore we have no liability. And guess what? The defense of Birch Tree holdings was exactly what I just said, that even if the smoke detectors have been working because this was an arson, the fire spread faster, etc.
- [38:51]
A
Etc.
- [38:52]
B
So recall who's telling us it's an arson initially, it's the local fire chief who reports to the guy who wants it to be an arson because it might protect him from liability. I'm not saying that's what he did at all, but you can sort of see why people in the community might have sort of an idea that something strange is going on, on here. Right. That maybe this is not as clear cut as we're being led to believe. Then you add in that that same local fire chief is telling people, oh, it started in multiple areas because of the accelerants obvious arson. And then they look into it further like, well, maybe not multiple areas, but there was still accelerants. Now, they do have the Indianapolis Fire Department saying, yes, this was probably an arson, but a lot of that was dependent on those initial reports, the initial investigation.
- [39:42]
C
Yeah.
- [39:43]
B
So this is just all things to remember.
- [39:45]
C
And also as good as investigators are, as good as any lawyer is when the initial report that hits you there definitely is like starting bias.
- [39:53]
A
Right.
- [39:54]
C
You're reviewing a document that initially found that there was arson. I'm not saying that they were swayed by it, but that's where your starting place. Right. That's why when you do like economic surveys, there are certain ways or surveys, biases and how you set up questions so that people don't start from a place of thinking, outcome driven.
- [40:12]
B
So now things are going to get distasteful. So Galen files this lawsuit, this federal wrongful death lawsuit against Josh Ayers and his partner and their holding company.
- [40:25]
A
Right.
- [40:26]
B
That's in November. In July, she receives a letter from the Indiana State Police and they're telling her that they need to speak with her about the fire. Now, I'm sure she would say, why don't you just give me a call and we'll talk. It does not appear that they actually did speak. There were two initial interviews. But I want to read to you this letter that was sent to her. It says, as previously discussed, this letter is intended to formalize our need. Bolded underline to speak with Galen Rose regarding the House fire, which occurred on November 21, 2016. Since this senseless crime was committed, detectives and many others have worked tirelessly for the souls, which is a little weird, of Kiana, Kiera, Cariel, Keone, their mom, family and Flora community. Many interviews have been completed and substantial information has been obtained. We are keenly aware that Ms. Rose was interviewed on two separate occasions, but those interviews were simply for initial information gathering purposes and were understandably challenging for her due to the close proximity of her loss. It is routine practice of law enforcement to complete several interviews with victims to ensure that all the essential information has been obtained. An interview with Ms. Rose would surely allow us to gain more insightful information related to whom she contacted, commonly associated with. We need to better understand her personal life, her activities, and identify everyone that visited her home in the days, weeks and months before the fire. And let me just say. Okay, that makes sense, right? We're trying to identify possible suspects. Somebody who would want to do this to her. We believe that her associations. But let's just say the way it's written though, it's like, very accusatory. And it gets worse. We believe that her associations may well lead to a motive and a direct correlation to the crime that killed these four little girls. Surely she will help us. Exclamation point. Okay. We have empathy for the difficult conversation that we are asking for, but it cannot be as difficult as what occurred to those little girls on the night of November 21, 2016. Just gonna pause here.
- [42:36]
A
No, no, no.
- [42:37]
C
You're not gonna invoke the death of her four daughters.
- [42:39]
B
This is bad. I mean, whoever wrote this, this is bad. It's just getting worse and worse, right? If she chooses to not participate or be less than forthright with us, the likelihood of prosecution diminishes with time. Okay, and now. Okay, so, like, this is already pretty bad, right? And remember, she's suing a powerful person in the area. Already pretty bad. Let's just keep going because it ain't over yet. And this isn't a letter. We understand that Ms. Rose could be fearful of criminal repercussions for discussing particular matters associated with her personal life. Therefore, attached is a letter from the Carroll county Prosecutor which remisses Ms. Rose from any criminal charges related to her alleged illegal drug activity. Just. We're willing to travel anywhere in the country or abroad. Abroad? You gonna meet her in, like, Paris or something for an interview with Galen Rose. We can also coordinate and facilitate travel to and from a mutually agreeable and suitable location where the interview can occur. So in the wake of this, she releases this letter. We have this letter because she released it. She was like, hell, no. She releases his letter, and she's like, I don't know what they're talking about. And she's like, look, I have smoked pot before, but this whole, like, alleged drug activity thing, like, they're insinuating that.
- [44:15]
C
She'S part of, like, some drug trade and some drug dealer came and, like, killed her daughters as retribution for some drug debt. Like, that's ridiculous.
- [44:23]
B
Yeah. Or worse. I mean, you know, like, she has, like, a meth lab in the back, you know, and that's what happened or something. I mean, there's no evidence of any of this. And it's just completely out of the blue. Right. And they just dropped this. Once again, this letter is sent July 19, 2019. 2019. Recall, this happened in 2016. And they don't send this letter, this very threatening letter, until she files this federal lawsuit. And it's like, I don't know, guys. This is not good. Like I said, I don't know who wrote that letter, but they use all.
- [45:00]
C
The tools of someone who is inexperienced at writing. Whenever I see bold, underlined italics, exclamation points in a brief, I immediately think, it's not a good brief. Yeah, exactly. Because you can't make your points by words alone. You have to rely on these other things that are perfectly fine, by the way, when you text your friends. Not wonderful when you are sending these threatening letters. Especially when she wants nothing more than to get answers. And she has, in fact, spoken to the police in this situation.
- [45:37]
B
And that letter is from the Indiana State Police. Just want to be clear who that's from.
- [45:41]
A
Yeah.
- [45:42]
C
Yes. Yes, the ISP. Now, January 2020, the appliance manufacturer was dismissed from this lawsuit. This happens sometimes. They were maybe a little bit of a reach. I don't think there's been any finding, for example, that it was actually the refrigerator. Especially when you have all these intervening situations.
- [45:59]
A
Right.
- [45:59]
C
The unlocked door, the smoke detector, and the electrical outlets had nothing to do with the manufacturer. So that is not a surprising thing. When you file a lawsuit, you have to do something called, like, joinder. You have to join all the parties. You can't just go after whoever you don't like, in other words. And so. So oftentimes, people will sue all the parties they think are possible. And then each of the parties have an opportunity to file a motion to dismiss saying that, you know, there are no facts alleging that I've done anything wrong here. And so you should dismiss me. So that's what happened here. But really the target of this is Ayers, his business partner and the company that rented them this death house.
- [46:44]
A
I have a confession. I'm kind of a last minute shopper and if you're like me, you know the feeling. The shelves are empty, ideas are running low and I have no idea what to get. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal. I have a wonderful blessing of so many people in my life that I love, but a lot of people, I just don't know what to get them. They seem to have everything or they're just difficult to shop for. So Aura Frame has been the perfect gift for those hard to shop for people in your life. They are amazing because you can upload unlimited photos and video. You just download the Aura app and connect to WI fi. You can preload photos before it ships and you keep adding photos anywhere, anytime. You can really personalize your gift and add a message before it arrives. It makes sharing photos and videos effortless. It goes straight from your phone all year long. And even better, it comes with a beautiful gift box. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Prosecutors at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code prosecutors. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give people things they really love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they'll wear for years. That's why I'm going with Quinn Quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince has something for everyone. Soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50 that look and feel like designer pieces. I love their silk tops and skirts for dressing up or even going in decor. Their perfectly cut denim is for everyday wear and outerwear that actually really keeps you warm. Their Italian wool coats are standout pieces. They're beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and crafted to last four seasons. This holiday season, I am wrapping myself in their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. It is so soft, structured and it doesn't pill. It's the kind of quality I'd normally expect from a $200 sweater. Not a $50 sweater and quince has gifting covered beyond clothing too. I've picked out amazing things for home, bath, kitchen and even travel. I love their rolling bags. There really is something for everyone at Quint's. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n q prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com prosecutors this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are a time of traditions. Some people have many in their family and some have none or are just beginning their own. Now's the time to reflect on what they mean to you and to rewrite those traditions and make your own. Like perfecting a new hot chocolate recipe with the kids or continuing your great aunt's sweet potato pie. Incorporating therapy into your new or existing traditions can help ensure you take time for yourself during what can be a very joyful but sometimes hectic and lonely time of year. I love being able to gather around the fireplace with my family and drink hot chocolate and look at the Christmas lights. But the thing about the holiday season is I have to make a lot of the magic happen and it makes it a kind of a stressful time of year. Now I'm so excited to make therapy part of my family tradition. It helps me with the holidays to make sure that I'm present and I'm able to fully enjoy and make the best of this holiday season with my family. I encourage you to consider trying BetterHelp online therapy in December as a way to close your year with clarity rather than chaos. They have quality therapists because Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you on your therapist match so you can focus your energy on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps helps identify your needs and preferences and our 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means that BetterHelp typically gets it right the first time. But if you're not happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored Rex. They have over 30,000 therapists and BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. They've served over 5 million people globally globally and here's the thing. It works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews this December. Start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off@betterhelp.com prosecutors that's betterhelp.com prosecutors.
- [52:30]
C
August 2023. Three years later, a federal judge ruled that the home where the fire occurred could be torn down as it was no longer needed to preserve evidence. So when there's like an active crime scene or something, the owners of the home can't really do much with it. I unfortunately knew this because you remember back in one of our cases, I was at Yale when the Annie Leigh murder happened and she was murdered in the medical school building, found in the walls there. But her apartment, that makes a little more sense. Where she lived was ultimately deemed rentable, so they could then rent it out because that wasn't a crime scene. But they did have to work through the police and I think eventually get a court order in order to move forward. Forward with this, since at the time when they didn't know what was happening, it was all cordoned off as a crime scene. This here is a little bit different because it's not just another location where the victims were. This was the actual crime scene. But nonetheless, the landlord now has the ability to destroy the house, which I assume if you're the landlord, you want to do that asap for lots of reasons. No one's going to want to live there in case there's any evidence, it's now definitely going to all be destroyed. September 2023, a settlement was reached in the civil lawsuit filed by Galen Rose. So this case never went to trial. And then after that settlement on October 2023, the house, which was located at 103 East Columbia street was demolished. And honestly, that ruling probably spurred the parties to settlement, which is probably why you see the timeline of events in the way that they are.
- [54:04]
B
And we should do a legal briefs sometimes on civil practice because what happened in this case is so similar to what happens in most cases. They did all this discovery. They did some depositions. We're going to talk about some in a minute. And then they filed what they call summary judgment motions. And summary judgment motions say, hey, I should win. I don't need a trial. No facts are in dispute. Laws on my side. I should win. So obviously, the rental company filed one of those and they lost. The judge denied their summary judgment motion and set this for trial. And once they did that, they settled. And that happens all the time because they didn't want to go to trial because the lives are not good.
- [54:47]
C
The jury is you know, you got a sob story. We've always said, even if the facts are on your side, when you have a sob story like this, it's not going to be great to go to trial.
- [54:56]
B
And their argument they made. I've already told you, the argument. Argument was that the time wouldn't have mattered because of the way the fire was. Even if there were batteries in that smoke detector, wouldn't matter. And the judge said, look, that's a great argument to make to a jury. That's a factual argument. That's not a legal argument. That's a factual argument. And you can make that argument to a jury that it wouldn't have made a difference. And let me just go and tell you, ain't no jury in America. He would say, oh, you're probably right. You're fine not putting batteries in the smoke detector. Because it probably wouldn't have made any difference. Like, no, that was a.
- [55:29]
C
And also, guess what? The duplex over there, they got out. So, like, getting out is a possibility.
- [55:35]
B
I bet probably they had smoke detectors.
- [55:38]
C
Otherwise they probably could have filed lawsuit, you know, endangerment or something. Okay. About civil lawsuits. This is stretching out so long, right? Fires in 2016, the lawsuits filed in 2018, and we are talking about not a settlement until 2023, literally. Someone asked me today, judges, they can do whatever they want, right? Like, they're the judge. They set the schedule. They set whatever they want. And, like, they could just not work if they don't want to, right? And I was like, yes, technically, but the judiciary really only derives power from the fact that people put their trust in the judiciary. This is actually a very philosophical question, because unlike police officers, who actually have handcuffs and like the legislature, we talked about this in legal briefs, like, they control the purse. So, like, if they just decide, you know, not to release the money or all these things, like, there are actual consequences. But with respect to the judiciary, it's supposed to be the least dangerous branch. This is more of legal briefs aside. It really only works because we as a society buy into it and say, when the judge orders something, it has the force of power, but it doesn't really. If everyone just decided, nah, not gonna listen to the judge. And that has happened in some contexts, right? So while, yes, technically, the judge is like, king of their little fiefdom and can do whatever they want, when you have stuff like this happen where. And I. This is incredibly frustrating. I litigate a bunch of cases like this where the. Whatever jurisdiction I'm in, they'll just be like, that's just the way it is, man. These civil lawsuits, because they're not criminal, because no one's dying or has died. This one someone has. Four people have. It's going to sit there for seven, eight years. Seven, eight years of legal fees and no finality, I think, is absolutely, like, an affront to justice. And this happens a lot. So the fact that this went on for five years, six years is not that uncommon, but I think generally that is a terrible thing for our judiciary. So, I mean, I'm not an elected judge, but if you're an elected judge and you're voting on judges, go look at their records, see how many cases. Like, what's their timeline of cases? Cases. Because while people vote because, you know, there's a certain letter behind their name or there's some part of some political party, I just want people to dispense justice. And so I actually look at that all the time when I go vote for my local judges. I'm like, I don't know. It looks like you don't dispense of cases for, like, a decade. That's not justice. Sounds like you're just taking, you know, a little vacation on taxpayer dollars. So that's my, like, rail against the justice system in terms of withholding justice from. From these cases. These are the most important cases for every. Every single case is the most important case for whoever is a party there.
- [58:20]
B
This is a legal briefs episode. But you're 100, right? I mean, the old saw justice delayed is justice denied is entirely true. And we as a society need to spend more money on our justice system. You spend more money on judges. We need to have more judges. We need to have more social workers. Like, we don't spend anywhere near as much money as we should. Because when you think about the cost to lawyers to. I mean, not to mention the litigants, but, I mean, just imagine you're a lawyer, and I know nobody feels sorry for lawyers, but imagine you're a lawyer and you're trying to decide whether or not to take this case. She's only gonna get justice if some attorney will take her case, right? Well, if they're thinking, man, got me five years, and I don't know we're gonna. We ever gonna make any money on this, and she doesn't have any money. So I'm just gonna have to front it all, all the money for depositions, for court reporters, for transcriptionists, all of that money. I'm just gonna have to front it in the hopes that one day I'll Win. And because the courts move so slowly, that might not be for five or six years. I can't take that chance. Sorry, lady. Sorry. What happened to you? I can't take that chance. Good luck with the next attorney. Right? And that happens to so many people and they can't find anybody. People email us all the time and they're like, hey, I've got this issue. And it's like, I don't know what to tell you because I don't know that any attorney will take your case because of just the monetary factors. And a lot of that is the time it takes because everything moves so slowly. So I'm with you 100% anyways.
- [59:49]
C
That's just my railing against it.
- [59:51]
B
So now we're getting very recent. This is still an active investigation. The Indiana State Police, they brought. The FBI is in. They're going door to door around Florida. They're looking for new information on the case. And I think what you're seeing here. Remember how Delphi was solved? Delphi was solved because they didn't give up. They kept looking. They kept looking and kept looking. And finally, in their files, a volunteer found this note where basically Richard Allen shows up and says, hey, by the way, I'm Bridge guy didn't kill anybody, but I'm in all the videos. That's me in the pictures. And of course, they eventually convicted him, so they're hoping to get something like that. But unfortunately, at least for now, the case remains unsolved. Now, we've talked about this throughout. I think it's just worth noting that we're not saying there's any connection. There probably isn't any connection, But Flora, Indiana, is less than 10 miles from Delphi. It's very close. And as we said, Libby and Abby were murdered just about two weeks after the floor of fire was ruled incendiary. So right after they came out with this, it's an arson, then you have this other murder. And I think most people don't think these two incidents are related in any way. Very different crimes, very different demographics. 10 miles is still 10 miles. But what I think a lot of people have thought is that you have these two young white girls. I mean, I hate to even interject it, but this is what people think. You have these two young white girls who are murdered in this very public way. There's videotape, there's audio tape. It becomes a national story. It's on cnn. This case is not on cnn. And the attention and the resources and everything else shift to solving Delphi and away from the Flora fires, and that maybe that's the reason you have not yet solved this case.
- [61:47]
C
Now, remember that civil lawsuit? Now, it contained a lot of interesting information. During his defense, Ayers requested information from the state police and the fire marshal.
- [61:56]
A
To aid in his own defense in.
- [61:58]
C
A motion to compel, which is just what you file when whoever you've requested information from is like, nope, not going to give it to you. And they probably said that because it was an active investigation, you can file a motion to compel to essentially say, this is why I need it. The law and the facts are on my side, Judge. Order them to give me the information. So in that motion to compel, the attorneys wrote, the agencies purport to have conducted significant investigations regarding who set the fire and how it was set. They have identified suspects and have cause and origin theories, but they refused to share this with Ayers. But that's interesting for our purposes, because they're claiming that there is information in this ongoing investigation as to who the suspects are. Could be, because so far, we haven't heard any names of identified suspects publicly.
- [62:45]
B
And this is why you love a good civil suit. Because as much as Indiana wants to hide the ball, once you start having a civil suit, you have discovery, things start being discussed. So even though eventually the ISP was able to use their various protections to prevent them from having to release any information, if you read the filing, which we did, you will start to see these little hints, right? Because these attorneys, they have information, they're getting information and they're hearing things. So even though, as we said, there are no suspects, as far as we know, it doesn't seem like it at least seems possible that the state police do have suspects, that they have identified people, that they do have a theory, they're keeping it very close to the vest. But, you know, it seems like maybe they have more information. And one thing, and we'll put this up on the website, there's a lot of discovery in this case. There were summary judgment motions filed. Those always include various evidentiary things. And one thing we have is a deposition of an expert, which is fun, right? And this was an expert named Michael Virgin. And so he sort of opined about where the fire started. And he said it began on the rear porch that was accessed via the kitchen. So basically, think about this duplex. You have the kitchen, you have one of these doors that doesn't lock. It opens out to a porch on the rear of the property, right? This porch contained a whole bunch of different stuff. I mean, much like My porch, there's just a bunch of junk on it, right? Various things. You don't have anywhere to put it. You put it on the porch, right? That's the way we live here. And so. And that was basically this, it was sort of that area. A neighbor who lived behind the house observed what he described as a 2 inch. And the only reason we know this is because of Virgin's deposition, what he described as a 2 inch path of fire on the floor of this back porch. And so this indicated to this expert, he's thinking, so somebody like, you know, they took gasoline or whatever, they poured it in the kitchen, they poured it out to the porch, they lit it there, it rushes into the kitchen, it lights on fire or whatever. And that's sort of the thing that he's indicating. And so he's thinking like there's this ignitable liquid trail leading from the outside into the inside. And he also said when they looked at the back porch, there were no items found on the back porch that could have been the source of this ignition. Now what's interesting about this. So this all sounds good, right? Oh, I got a path of fire, gasoline, whatever. The problem is, this is the only evidence he cites for this being a fire that was started. The testimony of this person who at 3 o' clock in the morning, they see this, right? There's no laboratory result, there's no confirmatory test, there's nothing that says this was an actual accelerant that was used to start the fire.
- [65:58]
C
So on this accelerant front, there is a canine that's used to find accelerants. And this canine did alert on several areas, but the lab tests were unable to confirm the presence of any accelerants.
- [66:09]
B
And I bet this is where the multiple place this thing came from. The dog. The dog ran around and he alerted on various places and they were like, see, they're accelerants all over the place. And they're gonna confirm that with lab tests, but didn't work out.
- [66:23]
C
That is probably what happened. So that cuts against kind of a conspiracy theory. The fire marshal initially believed the fire began behind that refrigerator. But Virgin disputed that, saying he believed it would show more evidence of burning if that were true. The door from the kitchen to the back porch only latched with a chain and it had no lock. So Vergin believed the door was open when the fire started.
- [66:47]
B
Now this is interesting for several reasons, because say, sort of your initial thought is this accelerant rushing into the house or whatever. Well, basically, as Vergen's talking more and more about this. He basically says, no, that's not what happened. It's not that the fire ran into the kitchen, is that it literally started on the back porch. It starts in the back porch, and then it sort of migrates into the kitchen. He believes the door was open. It's a little unclear whether it was or not. But he has various reasons for thinking that is a possibility. So the question is asked of him, could this have been an electrical fire? Because that is obviously a theory. You know, he didn't do an electrical analysis, but he relies on the electrical analysis that was done at the time by the fire investigators. And he says that based on that analysis, they did not believe that any sort of wires were causing the fire. However, there were a number of electrical breakers that had been tripped, and this could be evidence of some sort of electrical problem. But he opined that this was actually caused by the fire itself, that the heat of the fire had sort of caused the breakers to trip. Though, interestingly, the breaker on the porch where the fire supposedly started did not trip. Okay, why is this important? This may very well have been an arson, but there's a lot of holes in this, right? And there's a lot of possibilities that you have to consider. And there's a lot of concern. Conflicting evidence. And you start to wonder, was this an arson or not? And this leads us to one of. What I'm going to say is one of the most controversial things we're going to talk about. And this has not been talked about by anybody. And let me just be very clear. No one is blaming Galen for this. But there's a very interesting back and forth between this expert and the attorneys. He says that when Galen was asked about the last time she had been on the porch, she said it had been over a day. Now, why is this important? No one in the deposition ever says, hey, was she smoking on the back porch? No one ever says that. They never ask that question. Frankly, it's poor lawyering that they did not. But they talk about cigarette smoking on the back porch a lot. And they say that if that's true, that it had been more than a day, that would rule out the possibility that this was a fire that was started by a cigarette. Because that amount of time, the cigarette obviously would have died out. It wouldn't have caused the fire. The problem with that is, obviously, if you are the mother and this happened and someone's suggesting that it's a possibility that a lit cigarette on the back porch caused this fire, you can imagine telling the expert, no. It had been a day or so since I had been smoking in the back porch. Now, I don't know that she smoked on the back porch because that question was never asked. But the way the discussion goes in the deposition indicates strongly that that was a place that people smoked on that back porch. Whatever the case, no one ever found a source of ignition for this fire. They were never able to say this is where it started. They were never able to point to a particular area where there was gasoline or whatever. They were never able to establish that there was any kind of accelerant used. And as we said, the case ultimately settled. So that leaves us where we are today. We have this unsolved fire. We have four girls who died, and we have a mystery that goes on. Obviously, if you have any tips, the FBI is actively investigating this. You can give tips@tips.FBI.gov or you can call 1-800-call FBI 1-800-225-5324. The thing I will say about this, obviously, arson's weird. Arson is the kind of thing that people just do for no reason. You have people just like to see things burn and they just light things on fire. You could have that happen here. There's no obvious indication of motive. In this case, we have that strange letter that indicates maybe it's drug related, but with no real basis for that. It could be a random incident. But I will just tell you after looking at this and reading this, I'm not convinced it's an arson. I just don't know. And I know that is the official position of the police, but there's a lot of holes in this case. And so I would like to see a little bit more definitive proof that this is actually an arson and not some sort of accidental or electric or whatever fire that led to this.
- [71:55]
C
No, I think that's right. The first time I researched through this case because I read through things multiple times, the first time I read it, I was like, is this true crime or is this a really, really unfortunate situation? But I think had there not been the NCAA p. NAACP if they hadn't jumped in. And there are. Which is very valid by the way. We talk about this with Asia degree on all the time that unfortunately, I wish it weren't the case, but sometimes cases get more attention or less attention because of the race of people involved. I'm not sure. Just looking at the facts available and look, based on the expert testimony and based on motions filed in the civil lawsuit, there's probably more that we don't know. But in reading the available information, I don't know. I don't know if this is a terrible event that just happened. I'm not convinced that there was a conspiracy or a cover up or necessarily even an arson. Which is why I found it so interesting when the defense filing and the motion to compel said they've identified suspects, because who would it even be like? I don't think anyone is alleged and I don't think that Ayers would necessarily do his own dirty work either. So that's just an interesting note. Maybe they have identified people. Maybe they found DNA or something like that. But I am hopeful that if there is an answer to be had here that the FBI and the Indiana State Police can find it. Foreclosure for the girls and for their mother. Galen.
- [73:26]
B
And look, I don't want to insult all the arson investigators who listen to our podcast, but arson investigation, it's one of those things that's like, it's more of an art than a science. I'll put it that way.
- [73:38]
C
I. One of the most, like head banging experiences professionally was crossing an arson expert. Because fire, like animals or people, are unpredictable.
- [73:51]
A
Right?
- [73:51]
C
It's not a perfect equation. The fire in a wastepaper basket doesn't burn the same way every single time. Same with wild animals. You know, they don't act the same way every single time. Every time you throw a ball, a wild animal doesn't react in the same way. And so because of that, it's much more of an art form form rather than a math equation. And so many times, and this is why I was so frustrating in that particular cross examination is every way that I asked the question, it could have been arson or totally accident. And every answer he gave me, he was like, yeah, you're right, it could be that. I was like, well, couldn't it just be wind that caused this? You know, was that an exogenous factor? Yeah, it could have been. Well, if it was wind, then could it just have been an accidental fire rather than an intentional fire? Yep, could have been. But you're saying that the way it blew was unnatural in a still room, so it could be arson. Yep, you're right. And I was like, oh, my gosh, we're going nowhere.
- [74:41]
B
And look, I mean, who's the first person who said this was arson? It's the fire chief. Where'd he say it started? Behind the refrigerator? Well, the expert says that's not where it started. Right. So, like, how much of this is just the initial garbage in? Was this is arson. And that's been in all the reports from that point forward and that's put a finger on the scale. And so we all think this is a horrible arson where four girls were murdered. And maybe it was. And if it was, I want that person to be arrested and put in prison. But I just don't know. And look, you know, I don't know guys like this happened in 2016, Indiana. Maybe think about releasing some actual information. I mean, I just get. It's so frustrating the way they do things. This case is not going to be solved out of the blue. I know you got lucky on Delphi, frankly, but that's not going to happen in every case. So release some information. If you got houses demolished.
- [75:40]
C
Yeah, right. Like the house is gone. There's no, like, possibility of new information. It happened in the middle of the night. I'm surprised they even said they got a neighbor who saw something at 3am there's not going to be many more developments unless you have a Delphi situation where original information was misfiled child somewhere. But I don't think someone's going to remember something necessarily. I think the information may already be there, which is why releasing information may actually be helpful.
- [76:05]
B
Yeah. So look, this is a tragic case. Very sad. I mourn for these girls. It's a case that should be covered more often. Just because this is the thing. This is not some sophisticated crime. Right. Like, if someone did this, it probably is either a fire bug or somebody who is related to the family and had some. Some BS grudge they're trying to fill. This should be an easy case to solve. If this is an arson, it should be easy to solve. So the fact that you can't even tell me where it started, you can't point to a single accelerant. You can't give me anything other than like, a neighbor says he saw a strip of fire, which maybe he did, or maybe he saw a bunch of fire and thought it was a strip of fire. Right. Like, to me, you haven't given me anything to convince me this is actually a crime.
- [76:50]
C
But let me be clear. They definitely should have settled the case because the girls definitely were not gonna make it because of negligence with the fire alarm, which may not have been malicious or even intentional, but that is negligence for the one who was responsible for it, which may not go to the arson at all. And by the way, if you're thinking about insurance fraud, I'm not sure someone in a very high position in a society is willing to go potentially kill Five people to collect.
- [77:17]
B
That didn't happen.
- [77:18]
C
Somebody that didn't happen.
- [77:19]
A
Right.
- [77:20]
B
Place the batteries in the smoke detector first if they were gonna.
- [77:23]
C
Right, right. Because you can get insurance money without potentially killing, you know, a bunch of young children now and potentially more because it was a duplex.
- [77:32]
B
Do I think they were hardcore that this was a arson? Absolutely. Because the fact of the matter is an ordinary fire takes longer. A fire without accelerants takes longer. There's more smoke. Guess what? The smoke detector would have alerted her earlier, and she would have got those kids out if it weren't an arson. So I think they were very invested in this being an arson, and I think that's one of the reasons that this is universally considered an arson to this day, but I don't know that it is.
- [77:59]
C
Well said. But no matter what, at the end of the day, this is an incredibly sad case because those four girls died and not in their sleep. Unfortunately, no, they were because Galen could hear them.
- [78:11]
A
Right.
- [78:11]
C
Galen was trying so hard to get to them because she could hear them crying. And that's devastating.
- [78:16]
B
So be careful.
- [78:18]
C
Go check your fire alarms.
- [78:19]
A
Everybody.
- [78:19]
B
Go check your smoke alarms.
- [78:20]
C
Like, really go check your fire alarms. Thankfully, I know mine all work because every time I make steak, I set mine off.
- [78:26]
A
Yep.
- [78:27]
C
I don't know how to not set off my fire alarm when I make steak. It's like the grease fire, you know? And then it scares the bejesus out of my kids every time, as it well should.
- [78:36]
B
Yeah, my dog, rest his soul, he always hated it whenever I set off the fire alarm, which happened a lot. But I would reward him with steak. So it wasn't the worst thing. Okay, well, look, thank you guys for suggesting this case. A lot of you who suggested it over the years. This was a one we've always wanted to cover because such a tragedy. And in so many ways, I hate covering these cases with kids. But in another way, why else are we here? Right? I mean, that's what we want to do is try and shed light on these cases, and if there is a possibility to resolve them, do that. But if you have thoughts on this case, shoot us an email prosecutorspot gmail.com@consolepot for all your social media. If you want to see us record these early and ad free, you can see me in my nice ping sporting outfit, which Alice thinks makes me look. I'm in the Hunger Games. You can do that for as little as $3 a month on Patreon. So join our Patreon. You can do that or you can get our episodes early and ad free, which is a benefit in of itself because I know how much you hate the ads, but we want to hear from you guys. I hope you'll reach out. We love talking about these cases with you. As I said on Twitter today, we just signed our latest contract, so we're here for at least two more years. So you're stuck with us.
- [79:58]
C
You're stuck with us. We're not going anywhere.
- [80:00]
B
Going anywhere. So tell your friends. Bring more people to the family. All right. Alice, is there anything else you want to talk about before we sign off for today?
- [80:11]
A
No.
- [80:11]
C
This is just very sad. Please be safe. Close your doors when you go to sleep. Check your fire alarms and, I don't.
- [80:19]
A
Know, know, just be safe.
- [80:21]
B
Yeah, be safe.
- [80:21]
C
Something that Galen told Officer Yoder every single day.
- [80:24]
B
Yep. We want you guys all here for as long as possible. All right, well, we will be back next week with a new case, but until then, I'm Brett.
- [80:35]
A
And I'm Alice.
- [80:36]
B
And we are the prosecutors.
- [80:59]
A
I like the.
- [81:00]
C
The like. Turtleneck, zip up. Looks good.
- [81:03]
B
Thank you.
- [81:04]
C
You look like you're from. You're a competitor in the Hunger Games.
- [81:09]
A
There you go. Yeah. PETA.
- [81:12]
B
Not Peter. Come on.
- [81:13]
C
Not Peter. What's his name?
- [81:16]
B
Any of them would have been fine except PETA.
- [81:20]
C
But PETA lives.
- [81:22]
B
It would be better. It was better to die than live a PETA.
- [81:26]
C
Okay, just because he's not as cute.
- [81:30]
B
No, because he's. His cuteness has nothing to do with it. His pathetic has everything.
- [82:01]
C
Sam. I was trying to pick someone that lives. I was trying to pick someone who lives.
- [82:38]
B
That's what I said. Better to die than to live a PETA.
- [82:41]
C
Goodness gracious. I did not know we were so.
- [82:44]
B
If you know, you know. Not familiar. Everyone hates PETA. Like literally everyone.
- [82:48]
C
I know this, but I was trying to. I was trying to make you live.
- [82:51]
B
I don't want to live it. This November action is free on Pluto tv. Go on the run with Jack Reacher. Every suspect was a trap. Then buckle up for drive. World War Z.
- [83:47]
A
Every human being we save.
- [83:48]
B
Just one less fight and Charlie's Angels.
- [83:51]
A
Damn, I hate to fly.
- [83:53]
B
Launch into sci fi adventure with the fifth element. And laugh through the mayhem in Tropic Thunder. What is going on here? All the thrills, all for free. Pluto TV Stream now pay never.
- [84:13]
C
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [84:15]
B
Hmm. It's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [84:19]
C
Could you be more specific?
- [84:20]
B
When it's cravinient.
- [84:21]
C
Okay.
- [84:22]
B
Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right now in the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can.
- [84:28]
C
Grab in just a second at a.m. pM.
- [84:30]
B
I'm seeing a pattern here. Well yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [84:32]
C
Crave, which is anything from am, pm.
- [84:35]
B
What more could you want? Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's Cravinience. Am, pm too much good stuff.