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- [00:01]
Alice
A master murderer, Israel Keyes lives between two worlds.
- [00:05]
Brett
There's the person that everybody knows and.
- [00:08]
Alice
Loves, and then there's the guy who spends every waking hour planning on how.
- [00:11]
Brett
He'S going to kill someone.
- [00:12]
Alice
On Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer, we find out how this deadly predator went unnoticed for so long.
- [00:19]
Brett
I've had some confessions in my history, but nothing to that detail.
- [00:23]
Alice
I'll give it a little bit blow if you want. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:31]
Brett
This podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save some money. When you bundle your home and auto policies, the process only takes minutes and it could be hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [00:58]
Alice
Hi, I'm Juliette Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the True Crime podcast the Real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. It's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.
- [01:36]
Brett
I'm brett.
- [01:37]
Alice
And I'm alice.
- [01:38]
Brett
And we are the prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we finish our look at the disappearance of Chance Engelbert. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my bronc busting co host, Alice.
- [02:40]
Alice
I wish I were that tough. I wish I were a rodeo queen, but I'll settle for bronc bustin'.
- [02:45]
Brett
Have you ever ridden in a rodeo? I know you're on horses. You're a horsewoman.
- [02:48]
Alice
I have not. Because I will say so. Equestrian, like hunter jumper. Very different from like barrel barrel racing, horse dancing or bareback barrel racing.
- [03:00]
Brett
So did you do hunter jumper? Is that what you did?
- [03:02]
Alice
I did hunter jumper.
- [03:03]
Brett
So you didn't do the dancing? The horse dancing?
- [03:06]
Alice
No, I did not do dressage.
- [03:07]
Brett
Dressage.
- [03:08]
Alice
I was like, what's dancing? I mean, I danced, but the horse did not.
- [03:12]
Brett
You should have. You, you great dancer with a dancing horse. Put the two together, you know, been in the Olympics.
- [03:19]
Alice
How, how did we not think of that? Let's rewind the clock 20 years and go do some dancing.
- [03:23]
Brett
Horsin'dancing. Horses. Yes, that's right.
- [03:26]
Alice
But of course I'm not the real bronco buster.
- [03:28]
Brett
No, you're not, you're not. We are back.
- [03:31]
Alice
Our man. Our man. Chance.
- [03:34]
Brett
Chance. I can't. I keep wanting to call him Chance.
- [03:36]
Alice
Chase and then I get confused. Chance, which is a fantastic rodeo name, shall we say? I know, like take a Chance.
- [03:42]
Brett
Chance Engelbert.
- [03:45]
Alice
He was really born to be a bronco busting kind of guy. And I will say, probably all the way to the end.
- [03:52]
Brett
Yeah. And you know, I mean, honestly, if he just stuck to Brock busting, who knows? But he got in the demolition derby and it took him to Nebraska and he fell in love. And if you guys remember our last episode, he was down there visiting the in laws, had a little bit of a disagreement, seems like got angry, took a walk supposedly to blow off steam, but the inn ends up basically trying to walk all the way back to Wyoming. There's a whole bunch of phone calls that are exchanged and then a storm comes. He's caught in the storm. It seems like his phone, either something happens to it or it just stops pinging. We're not entirely sure. He's caught on camera shortly after the storm ends, but then no one sees him anymore. He's caught about 10pm the night of July 6, and then no one sees him. And the next morning, the morning of July 7, 2019, his wife, Bailey, she wakes up and she's thinking, well, he'll be back. He will, he will have walked, he'll blown off the steam, he'll have come back. But she wakes up and he has not returned. And this not only shocks her, but she gets really worried. She tries calling Verizon to see if they can give any information, but honestly, they're unable to help. They probably could help, honestly, in a different circumstance, the different person calling them, but I don't know that they're just going to give subscriber information to anyone who calls. In any event, this is now a serious incident. What it started off as just somebody taking a walk has now turned into a missing person.
- [05:27]
Alice
So remember the day before. 7pm is about the time he walks off, storms off. Now we are on the next morning, 11am so Bailey files a missing persons report with the Goering police department. Bailey reported that the police didn't take the matter seriously at first. And you can kind of imagine why. It's not like she came home and he was gone. They had a fight. I mean, even if it's not described as a fight. They were talking to each other and he turned around and walked off, which he's allowed to do because he's an adult. He didn't appear to be incapacitated in any sort of way. So we all have free will. We are allowed to, you know, walk wherever we want, even if we're married or, you know, otherwise in a conversation. So you can imagine why at first they're just hearing this, like, okay, he walked off, probably went to go find his buddies who he was going to spend the weekend with anyways. That's who he called. So he's off probably with his buddies and, you know, wife. Just relax. That's probably what they're thinking.
- [06:24]
Brett
And I'll say this. We've seen this happen in a lot of cases where the police don't initially take it very seriously. Of all the cases we've ever seen, this is the one where that reaction is the most reasonable, because this really is. He's a grown man. You obviously were in a fight. He walks off, it's the next morning. This just doesn't feel like a missing person. This feels like a couple that's had a fight. And one member of this couple doesn't want to talk to the other one. Is this really something that we should be putting our resources toward, particularly when he has all these other family members who might have helped him. So I think their initial response is actually pretty rational.
- [07:01]
Alice
And the fact that he kept talking to lots of people, friends, family members, text messages, several hours after he'd walked off. So I would say this falls into the very reasonable response camp. But after several calls from family members, they're all calling the police department, basically saying, like, no, this is not like him. I did try to call him. He didn't pick up. He always picks up those types of calls. They launch a massive search for Chance. Now, over the course of the next several days, investigators hit the ground running looking for chance. Nearly 150 people searched 2,400 acres of land. That's a massive search in terms of breadth and depth. Eighteen agencies were involved in the search efforts. To put that in perspective, the FBI is one agency. So 18 agencies. I don't even know if I've worked on a case that coordinated 18 agencies. I can't even imagine the logistical nightmare that is.
- [07:57]
Brett
I didn't know we only got 18 agencies in the brain.
- [07:59]
Alice
Was that like, from across 18 states? Maybe?
- [08:01]
Brett
I mean, I guess it's close to several different states and maybe there were.
- [08:05]
Alice
People helping see, like, tri state area with the state, local, county, the city, some different counties. Yeah. So any. Anyways, that. That's a huge, huge search, if you can imagine. Like when the Delphi search started, it was like three agencies that collaborated at the beginning and pretty much stayed around that number. And then they trimmed it down because it was so many agencies and it was kind of tough to do such a big search. So 18. And I'm emphasizing this only because maybe at first they didn't take the missing persons report seriously, but very soon after, they did basically an exhaustive search as an exhaustive search, as you can do. They even brought in cadaver dogs and helicopters. That's not brought in in every case because those cost money and they have limited resources for that. But they brought them in in this case. And the K9 searched 10 different lakes and ponds as well as the North Platte river and air link. And the Nebraska State Police completed air searches of a combined 380 miles. So this was a massive ground search, air search, dog search, people search. The central Gering Canal was drained to be more thoroughly searched. But despite all of these efforts from investigators, there was no sign of Chance.
- [09:23]
Brett
So they're still hoping, you know, he was walking to Wyoming. Maybe he made it. Maybe he's just been walking for these past few days. But on July 8, that was the day that he was scheduled to start his new job at Blackman Propane, and he did not show up. And this, of course, was very unlike him. It was out of character for him. This was an important job for him. And no one thought that if he were able to show up that he would choose not to do so. So at this point, you know, this is a huge effort by all these combined agencies. The families also trying to do this as well. His friends are getting together, they're going down to gearing to try and help. Matt is organizing searches. And basically they're searching for four straight days and only leave when they had to return to work. Now, on July 9, 2019, something happens that a lot of people find strange. So it's Tuesday. It's three days after he went missing. And according to his mother, Dawn Bailey asked Gehring police for a death certificate for Chance. So she wants to have him declared dead three days after he disappeared. You know, we were just talking about Bryce Lespisa a few episodes ago, and he still hasn't been declared dead as far as I know. Three days. I mean, that's fast. I mean, that is fast. Now this absolutely happened. Don's right about this. Dawn is the one, you know, making this public because as we've said, there is clearly a split between these two families. And this looked very suspicious and a lot of people have viewed it as suspicious. Now Bailey said that she has to look out for herself and for her sons future. She was in school full time, she didn't have a job and she needed him to be declared dead in order to collect his insurance policy, which in of itself you can imagine. Well, I need him to be dead so I can get the insurance money. But she needs the money for her son. And frankly, I mean, look, three days is fast. I don't think there's any saying it's not, but it's also pretty rational because he didn't walk off to start a new life. He didn't get kidnapped by a cult or by sex traffickers. He didn't get abducted by aliens. He's not on a beach somewhere playing guitar. If he didn't come back, he's probably dead. I mean she's very clear out about this in some ways whatever happened, he's dead in her view. And so she could not have him declared dead. So it wouldn't look bad, but her and her son are going to suffer because of it. So she tries to do this now it's a little unclear to me whether she was successful. I can imagine this would lead to all sorts of litigation between the family and the insurance company. There's all sorts of people who would be hesitant to move forward with this. In any event, the search for him continues and Gary and PD are asking local businesses to turn in any surveillance footage that they have from 7:30pm to 11:00pm the night of his disappearance.
- [12:33]
Alice
So on July 11, 2019, Goering PD received reports that someone resembling Chance was hitchhiking along I25 in Casper, Wyoming. Officers went to check out the area but they weren't able to locate any hitchhikers. This kind of a report, this probably wasn't the only report to be honest. If you have 18 agencies, the word is spread pretty widely. People think they see people all the time. So it's very possible someone really thought they saw him. And it's also possible it may have been him. But if this person's hitchhiking, they're probably long gone by the time police come by. Now, Casper, I've been to Casper, but I flew there and I don't think it's particularly close to Nebraska. That's why I'm hesitating a little bit that he is in Wyoming or he was walking towards Wyoming, but He's walking to like the border of Nebraska and Wyoming.
- [13:23]
Brett
He would have walked quite a ways to get to Casper. I mean, it's on the Nebraska side of Wyoming. But he would have kept going, I guess, after he got to that one town. Right, in Wyoming.
- [13:36]
Alice
Right. That would have been really far. But if you were hitchhiking, he could have made it, of course, because we are talking about several days later. But in any event, they never found who this person may have been, so they can't confirm whether it was him or not.
- [13:51]
Brett
And can I just say there's never been. It's kind of like what we say. No one's ever disappeared that somebody didn't say they went off to start a new life. Nobody's ever disappeared that. There weren't all of these sightings all over the place. I think back to Maitre E. Richardson, which is one of the early cases we did. And you had sightings in Las Vegas. They were convincing enough that I believe it was her father actually went out to Las Vegas looking for her. And she was eventually found deceased fairly close to where she disappeared. She never went to Las Vegas. She wasn't in Las Vegas. You see this a lot. And these sightings are always so tantalizing because like, oh, that could be it. But like it almost never is.
- [14:32]
Alice
And by the way, that's also why it is kind of amazing when someone calls in a tip and is like, I'm sure it's that person that it really is. We just saw this in the Luigi Maggione case, right? Like someone with a mask on. So if you see someone, you should still call it in. But there are so many more false sightings than there are real ones. So we'll see more about the timeline. But there's then another potential sighting of Chance reported again in Casper, Wyoming. And this is on July 12, 2019. So the day after someone reported seeing someone hitchhiking that looked like Chance in Casper, a woman was shopping at the local Walmart and she reported seeing a man she thought thought was Chance while there. However, six hours of Walmart surveillance footage was reviewed and they were unable to identify anyone as Chance. According to Gearing PD Officer Sean West, Walmart footage tends to be pretty good. They have actually really good like anti theft cameras. So this is not like the grainy video, it's actually pretty clear. So because of the quality of the video, the police department thought it was pretty unlikely that Chance was actually in Walmart, but the possibility couldn't be ruled out all together.
- [15:46]
Brett
Yeah. And I mean, I Don't have a whole lot to say on that, except it's just you see this a lot. And I think, as Alice said, you always want to call it in. But also, you see, assume for a second that they did not see him at Walmart. And we talk about this a lot. You know, every time there's a crime and someone's arrested and convicted and it goes to trial, one defense strategy is always, why didn't you do this? You know, why didn't you do this thing? Why didn't you do this thing? Why didn't you test this? Why didn't you test that? And we always talk about how limited resources are. I mean, imagine they watch six hours of Walmart surveillance footage, like some officer was off the search for six hours, or three were off the search for two hours each, right? Doing this. And every time you have to follow up a tip, every time you have to review something like this, the amount of time that is lost is massive. And I feel like it's such an easy attack in all these cases. And you see in every single innocence case, there will always be this claim. The police did not do enough to investigate whatever the person with 2020 hindsight says should have been investigated at the time. But they have to make these kind of decisions and they have to use their time as wisely as they can. But the fact of the matter is they got six hours because they don't really have much to go on. They did this massive search of the area. They're not finding him. And you can bet there were a lot of people who thought we put this much effort into it. He's not here. If he was here, we would have found him. So maybe isn't Casper. So nothing happens. We get to November of 2019, and on the 27th, investigators release more information about his cell phone usage the night of his disappearance. Trying to jog memories, right? And so they say, look, we've recovered some data. It seems like he was close to a tower that was at the Riverview Golf Course. So he's around that area. And his phone had been used for the last time shortly after 9pm now, we know now that that usage was those text messages that were sent to Aunt Katie. The ones that the first one could be a legit message, but the second one certainly seems like whatever it was not what he meant to send, it was some sort of accidental text. And then his phone stops pinging. And recall at this 9 o' clock hour. This is when we're having this massive storm. And that's it for 2019. A couple years pass. In October of 2021, a human arm bone is discovered by a hunter in Scotts Bluff County. However, this was confirmed not to be chances because once again every time someone goes missing and there's a search, they're always finding the bodies of other people. It's always kind of amazing how often that happens. And frankly for the next few years there's nothing in this disappearance becomes one of those mysteries that everyone talks about.
- [18:56]
Alice
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- [19:20]
Brett
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- [19:50]
Alice
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- [24:22]
Brett
So if he didn't die in the storm, maybe someone killed him. My theory is that maybe this was a robbery gone wrong. Remember, he had the phone, it was working, all of a sudden he didn't. Maybe someone robbed him, they took the phone, he was walking alone at night in a storm. He could have ran into the wrong person. But as is so often these cases, this is complete speculation. There's no evidence for it. And as we say, there's a huge strike against it. If he had been robbed and killed, the person would have taken his stuff, shot him and left his body on the street. They wouldn't have taken the time to hide him, to get rid of him, to take him away from the area. And so you would expect he would have been found. So it's probably not a robbery gone wrong. So maybe like everyone else who's ever gone missing, he decided to leave on his own. Maybe he wanted to start a new life. He was finally fed up. He was fed up with his wife, he was fed up with his mom, he was fed up with his in laws and he just wanted to strike off on his own, join the traveling rodeo. He's probably brock busting around the country even as we speak. But this is really unlikely. Number one, leaving in the middle of a storm is a strange way to do that. He also, he had made plans to pick up a package from his parents the day after he vanished. He was about to start his new job. He had just had a son. He had a baby boy that he was crazy about. And everyone agrees that he wouldn't have just walked away from that. And his bank cards have never been used. And there's no evidence he had the material support to make a disappearance and starting a new life happen.
- [26:11]
Alice
I mean, he couldn't Even get a ride that night. Right. Much less. You need at least a ride in the Midwest to get somewhere. But it's not like he had lined up Matt to pick him up at the corner. So this was obviously a heat of the moment thing. But without even being able to get a ride, of course, there's, you know, allegations that maybe someone who looked like him was hitchhiking. How was he going to basically start a new life without money? Because money was tight and he wasn't using, you know, his bank cards or anything like that. I do wish that running off and starting a new life were that easy, but you need resources, and it doesn't seem he had any or that there's any sign that he used anything. So that brings us to another theory, which is, was Chance murdered? So many people speculate that Bailey or her family had something to do with Chance's disappearance. However, at this point, this is purely speculation. And the police have stated that Bailey and her family have been extremely cooperative. Now, this theory is based on a few things. Bailey and her family were the last to see Chance, and we, of course know the last people to see someone. They're gonna be on the suspect list if there is a crime. We know that there was a disagreement between Chance and his brother in law and father in law at the golf course. Remember, there was some discussion or comment made about the pay he was going to get at his new job. Something about it not being very good. But of course, Bailey reported that even though Chance was super angry about it, her brother and father weren't actually trying to put him down, but rather, Chance had misinterpreted it. Now, Chance and Bailey reportedly did have a tumultuous relationship, as I think can kind of be evidenced by the way he walked off in this situation. And it wasn't the first time that something like this had happened. Bailey asked for that death certificate just three days after Chance disappeared in order to collect on his insurance. That can go to motive, but as we've already laid out, money was already tight for them and nothing like this had ever happened before. So she may have thought, well, this is something really wrong and I need to take care of our son now. Matt Miller, Chance's best friend and don reported that Bailey told Blakemans that they did not need to hold Chance's job. When they stated that they would. So that's his new employer. They were like, look, you know, we hired him, we'd like him to start, if he shows up, will hold the job for him. And at least Chance's mom and best friend say that it was Bailey who told his new employer, don't worry about it, he's not coming. Now Bailey and her family hired a lawyer and Bailey no longer speaks to the press regarding Chance's disappearance. These last two, I have to say, we always advise you guys, don't talk to the media, don't talk to anyone. Get yourself a lawyer. Even if you're innocent. Especially if you're innocent, because, you know, things can kind of get out of hand in terms of the Twitter sphere or the public square.
- [29:03]
Brett
But it's probably not a surprise to anyone listening to this podcast that there's a good chunk of people in the true crime space. You think Bailey and her family had something to do with this? And they point to these this is more than a lot of theories in true crime cases are built on. And the three day thing is one that really gets people, it seems really fast. And telling Blakeman's not to hold the job feels like somebody who knows something about what happened. So you can imagine why people run with this.
- [29:34]
Alice
So it's also possible that Chance just met with foul play at someone else's hands. So not necessarily Bailey or her family, but that he's still the victim of homicide. Maybe he got into a car with the wrong person. He was steamed. He was trying to get a ride. And maybe someone drove by in the torrential downpour and said, hey, get out of the rain. Come on, I'll give you a ride. Maybe it was a serial killer. Maybe it was just someone who meant him harmless and maybe they got into an altercation of some sort. But again, there's no evidence of this. No one's come forward reporting seeing him walking on the side of the road. No one reports seeing him getting into the car with anyone. Nothing like this. It seems he was texting, calling, and then Lorraine probably broke his phone and we have no other communication.
- [30:18]
Brett
So not only do we have this theory that Bailey is and her family may be involved, but we have someone who claims to have information about what happened to Chance. And this was originally posted on Reddit, so it must be true, of course, and was then subsequently shared to a Facebook page that is one of the Find Chance Facebook pages. So I'm going to read you what this says. This is according to this person, this is what happened. Paradise Haven just may be the final resting place for Chance Engelbert, who was killed in May 2019 by Adric Blanco and Jason Leeling from Scottsbluff, Nebraska. So not only was he killed, though I'LL note they get the date wrong. He wasn't killed in May. But they name some people who they claim are involved. Jim Lawson is running cover, preventing any search warrants. He was the sheriff. So this is not unlike Delphi, where the sheriff in Delphi was involved. And it's always the police, right? There's always some sort of COVID up involving the police in these small towns. Adric Blanco told me. So this person claims to have personal information. Told me he was only supposed to beat up Chance. Good enough so Chance would stop laying hands on his girlfriend. And so this sort of kind of has the feeling of veracity, right, because we know they had a volatile relationship. Now, no one that we've mentioned up to this point has said that Chance was abusive. But it's not that big a leap to say that someone who has a lot of anger issues maybe could be an abusive person. He showed me his hands right after the incident and I remember them being severely cut up. Adric has bragged to me about knowing where the body was near the river. Chance is located in the manhole Septic nearby next to Kenny Kaufman's trailer, which is parked on Paradise Haven at the end of West Overland in Scottsbluff. It blows my mind. We cannot get this looked at. The murderer literally confessed to me while he was intoxicated. How often do you hear that? They should agree case we have someone who's saying that the person who killed her confessed while intoxicated. I am with a hundred percent certainty that his story is accurate and true. Aedric accidentally told me the last time he was near that property, him and his cousin Omar moved a couple bags onto it. There is no city sewer at Paradise Haven. There's no reason for Kenny to have a manhole next to his camper. So you have this story of exactly how this murder went down. Now, you know, all of you out there have to decide for yourselves what you think happened. Do you think he was murdered? Do you think this is what happened to him? Do you think he was struck by a vehicle and it was covered up by the sheriff? Any number of those things could be true. And people have a lot of theories about what might have happened. So maybe take a moment, think about it, maybe pause this episode and think about it and then come back. Because when you do come back, we're going to tell you exactly what happened. Because we know what happened. Because despite all of this speculation, this is a case.
- [33:39]
Alice
I think we all know what happened. Reddit was right. Reddit was right. 100% certainty Reddit was right. Adric did it. His hands are still scarred to this day. And we found the manhole next to Kenny's trailer and we dug it up. There were would, you know, three sandbags on top. They moved the sandbags and they had the fingerprints of Aedric and his cousin on the it, just like he said. And when they lifted the manhole, it was connected to nowhere because, hello, there's no septic system there, so they didn't need a sewer system. Do you know who was in the bottom of that manhole? Not chance.
- [34:15]
Brett
No. No. Yeah. Once again, the manhole.
- [34:18]
Alice
Be careful what you read online, guys.
- [34:19]
Brett
Yeah. Yet another case where the manhole theory turned out not to be true. And we did. West Memphis 3.
- [34:24]
Alice
And you know where people get this from, right? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
- [34:28]
Brett
Yeah. I mean, any number of things, it's the sexiest theory is true.
- [34:31]
Alice
Right.
- [34:32]
Brett
And I'll just say this. If we had done this six months ago, I think you all know where we would have come out, right? I mean, is there any question what we would have said? We would have said that he wandered off in the storm and he died somewhere and they just hadn't found his body. I mean, that's what we would have said. It's the same thing we've said for a lot of cases.
- [34:50]
Alice
And we would have said that the adamancy of the family, that he was an outdoorsman really didn't matter here because he was heated, he'd been drinking all day and he was on top of that. Like rage makes you want to do certain things. He was clearly in a state where he didn't want to accept help from people. And so when there's torrential downpour and not just like sprinkling, but a very, very intense rain where you can barely see straight and the river is rising 8 inches, mudslides are happening. We've said this is a very multi terrain area. You know this. They searched 10 lakes, they drained a canal. I mean they had to do that because this is all along the path of where he was going. We would have said he succumbed to the elements because the elements marred where he was looking and he probably slipped off a cliff. That's probably where we would have ended up six months ago. And Brett, is it manhole or elements?
- [35:50]
Brett
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- [37:10]
Alice
You guys have heard me talk about how much my kids love the high vitamins. It's true. You can't fool my kids or really any kids. If they don't like it, they don't like it. And hi, my kids love it. They mail them each these beautiful glass bottles that they get to decorate with all the stickers that come with the package. And then they put their vitamins in their own specially decorated stickered up hiya glass bottles. And every night after dinner my kids jump up and down and say can we please have higher vitamins? It's not an exaggeration. I've never told them to say it. And they're the ones who remind me that they have to take these vitamins every day. And it is just such a cherry on top that they are the best things they can be eating every day to ensure they have full nutrition. And here's something every parent needs to hear. If getting your kids to eat vegetables feels like an impossible daily battle, Hiya's new kids Daily Greens and Superfoods is a total game changer. It's basically chocolate milk stuffed with veggies. It's a greens powder that's packed with 55 plus whole food sourced ingredients. Just mix one scoop with milk or any non dairy beverage and watch them actually enjoy something that's secretly fueling their growing bodies. We've worked out a special deal with HIA for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal you must go to HIAhealth.com prosecute this deal is not available on their regular website. Go to hiyahe.com prosecute and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Starting the year with a wardrobe refresh. Well, Quince has you covered with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. They're perfect for layering, mixing and building a wardrobe that lasts. Their versatile styles make it easy to reach for them day after day. This is no exaggeration. My first buy of 2026, when I looked at my wardrobe and I just wanted to refresh. I got one of their beautiful classic silk washable silk blouses. I've worn it so many times already. I've worn it casually on the weekends and I've worn it to court. It travels well. It washes in the washing machine, which is fantastic. And I look professional and it's beautiful.
- [39:31]
Brett
Guys, you know I love quints. You know I do. It's amazing. If you've seen me anywhere, you've seen me wearing quints. If you've watched any of the documentaries around and you're like, oh, that coat looks great on him, it's because it's a quince coat. If he ran into me at Crimecon, not only did you see the quince coat, but you saw the Quint's dress shirt as well. I have this one dress shirt I wear from Quints and my wife's always having to wash it and she's like, do you not have any other dress shirts? And I'm like, I do, but I love this one and I need it to be clean because Quint's clothes make you look good. They feel good. You are going to to love them. And now is the time. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quints.com prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com prosecutors. Yeah, well, it's definitely not the manhole. It was the elements. On October 10, 2025, hikers discovered human remains at Scotts Bluff National Monument in Nebraska. Shortly after the discovery, the Scotts Bluff County Attorney's office put out a press release stating that the were also several items located near the remains. The family identified as belonging to chance. On November 25th of 2025, police identified the victim as Chance Engelbert via dental records. And DNA testing, he had died from an accidental fall, with his cause of death being listed as a pattern of blunt force trauma, most consistent with a rapid deceleration event, including, but not limited to a fall from a height. And we talked about this a little bit last episode. You think of Nebraska as being flat, Go Google Scott's Bluff National Monument. It's beautiful, but there are definitely some heights that one could fall from. The police confirmed there's no evidence to suggest that his death was anything but an accidental fall. Now, his family still has questions. They have been skeptical about how he could end up in such a remote location. But the fact of the matter is, locals have confirmed that the location is only about a mile away from where he was last located, where that last ping was. And then if he traveled through this area, it was very rugged and very easy to have an accident. And I think you have to recall it was a dark and stormy night. Chance was making bad decisions. He wasn't thinking clearly. He very easily could have attempted to make a shortcut in doing so, got himself in a situation where in the dark, without anything to guide him, he could fall in unfamiliar territory and unfortunately pass away. So that's what happened to him. He died accidentally and his body was found. It wasn't found for eight more years. But I think this case is so important for what it tells us about so many of the tropes of true crime and the conspiracies and the jumping to conclusions and everything else. I mean, there are so many. We could go through the search. How often in true crime cases have you heard they couldn't be there because they searched so thoroughly, the search was so thorough, that they would have found them. I mean, going all the way back to Maur Murray, people to this day tell me there's no way she's in those woods, because they've searched those woods and they would have found her. And the fact of the matter is, despite all of these resources that they put into this, he was a mile away from the last ping they searched. I forget. Hundreds of miles worth of area dogs.
- [43:33]
Alice
380 miles aerial, but 2,400 acres. Yeah, I mean, it was huge.
- [43:37]
Brett
150 people, dogs are out searching, and yet they didn't find him. It took some hikers who just happened to be wandering through that area, and they found him.
- [43:48]
Alice
And the other thing is that when you look at a timeline, we've always said this, when you're looking, especially at an unsolved case or a missing person's case, you're Given all these puzzle pieces. But the problem is, unlike a puzzle that you take out of a box, where, you know, every puzzle piece has a place to fit within it, that's not the case in real life. What we gave you, I mean, we gave you everything really leading up to it, but that's still not everything. Right. Because a whole life is 360 and it's wholesome and there's conversations and there's things going on inside his head, in his heart, and in his family and his wife and all these sorts of things. But when you are looking at this timeline, you're picking out all the suspicious activity and making this into a mystery or pointing fingers at someone who really is a victim herself. Right? I mean, she lost her husband and her three month old child's father probably over something she said. I mean, not blaming her, but she might be blaming herself. And what a position to be in where you're the last person to have talked to him that he stormed off. Maybe the anger was misdirected, but he was angry enough to leave the conversation you were having and that ultimately led him to his death. Then to have the world point their fingers at you for being the one to blame is devastating.
- [45:10]
Brett
I mean, for six years.
- [45:12]
Alice
For six years. I mean, that is. I can't even imagine the grief and the turmoil of all of that.
- [45:18]
Brett
Yeah, it's. I mean, we read you. We went through sort of the. I mean, turns out Bailey hiring a lawyer didn't mean anything. Turns out her asking for the insurance policy three days after he died didn't mean anything. Telling the propane company to release his job didn't mean anything. Those were all just, you know, things that happened that had no bearing whatsoever on the case.
- [45:41]
Alice
And another thing that we all know, but yet we fall victim to all the time. There are lying, lying, lying, lying liars online all the time who are lying for the purpose of lying. And they do nothing but lie. And they say specific people's names and they lie. I mean, that person said they had 100% certainty and they saw evidence and they spoke to someone. They might as well have been there to help bury the body. And it was all a lie. They didn't dream it up. They lied. They lied when they typed it, they lied when they pressed send. And they love it because they love the engagement. But it's a lie. There's not even a, like I misheard something. That's just a straight lie. Most of what you read online is a lie, guys. And I don't mean like Someone just kind of misinterpreted what they heard. It was a game of telephone. They lie for the purpose of lying, to lie to you. And I still don't fully appreciate that because I don't operate that way. But the vast majority of people who are posting on these forums do that. And they do it at the cost and the detriment of real life people and of the actual investigation because it deters resources to complete. Just nonsense. And I mean, if you see that as law enforcement, you're gonna take it seriously because it could be a confession. Most people are not confessing online on Reddit. So let that be a lesson because this is like such a clear cut example of how much people lie. Bold faced to you.
- [47:15]
Brett
And I think some people have a really hard time accepting that someone would do that. And we run into this. Sophie brings up Alice Scott from the Leo Scofield case, and people will say, like, well, why would she lie? I mean, why would she just completely make that up? I don't know why she would. But people do it all the time. You know, this person did it for engagement. I'm sure they got a kick out of it being posted on the Chance Engelbert Facebook page. They probably got a kick out of people building theories around it. You know, Al Scott wanted attention. She was bored and she wanted attention, so she was willing to lie. And, you know, it's just a reminder. You just, this is for all of us, including, you know, Alice and me. You have to take everything with a grain of salt. And he always had to keep an open mind because it would not be irrational to be highly suspicious of Bailey in the family. There's all sorts of reasons to be. They did get in a fight. They did have a tumultuous relationship. She did seem like she was misleading about that last encounter. And I think, you know, this leads to another thing. Chance. He didn't deserve to die, obviously, but Chance did a lot of really dumb, stupid, selfish things that night, you know, and I think the reason, if you'd stop and give Bailey the benefit of the doubt for a moment. Why did she take her baby and run into the house to give to Grandma? Because she knew that Chance was in a volatile, angry place. And even if they had not been in a fight, it was going to be so easy for him to blow up on her. And she didn't want to have the baby when that happened. That's why she did it. It wasn't because she really had, like, said something to him and already made him mad. And whatever. She just knew he was in that place. And unfortunately, his temper and letting himself get so riled up that he does this in the middle of the night in a place he's not familiar with. And then he ends up in this situation where I think, frankly, he probably just took a shortcut. I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again about my shortcut, my Boston shortcut. I think I've told this story way early on. I may have actually cut it out, because back then, I, like, cut out some of the embarrassing stuff, but now I just go with it.
- [49:34]
Alice
Now we lay bare all the embarrassment.
- [49:37]
Brett
So when I was lived in Boston, some friends and I, we went out to some bars in a part of Cambridge that we weren't that familiar with. And if you've ever lived in Cambridge, you know, there's a railroad track that runs down the middle of it, pretty much parallel to Massachusetts Avenue. And that's where, like, the Red Line runs, the Green Line, or what it is, runs into Boston. And so we go out, you know, drink for a little while, and then we're walking back to campus. And we have to get across this railroad track. And we're tired. We don't have money to hire a cab. It's a long walk. So we get to the railroad track, and there are these fences. And so we can't cross the railroad tracks because the fences are there. And you have to walk, like, all parallel to the fence for a really long way to get to a place where cars drive across railroad tracks. And we're like, we don't have to walk all that way. So it's me and two other people. So me and one friend are like, we're climbing these. We're just going to climb the fence. We'll hop down, cross the track, climb the fence on the other side, and then we'll be on the other side and we'll be fine. So we start to climb it.
- [50:45]
Alice
Such a terrible idea.
- [50:47]
Brett
Me and my friend, it's Milne. We start climbing climate. Well, our third friend is like, what in the world are you doing? Right? And, you know, grabs one of us, like, y' all are crazy. Like, don't do this. And he convinces us not to do it. We're like, okay, fine. We won't climb over the fence. And so we end up. We walk all the way down to where there's an opening and you can go across. Well, it turns out that the reason it's like that is because that where you can cross the railroad track, it's not. You don't just drive over the railroad track. It's a bridge because the railroad track is not parallel with the road. It's in a depression. So it's like 10ft down is where the railroad track is. And then there are bridges in sort of regularly space that cross over the railroad track. So we couldn't tell that at night. So if we had climbed the fence and dropped down as we intended to do, we would have dropped like 20ft into this depression with the railroad tracks. And even if we don't, like hurt ourselves, there's no way to then get back up because the fence doesn't go all the way down there. It's like a stone wall. And we got to that bridge and we're like, oh, my goodness. Like, that would have been really bad. And we obviously profusely thanked our friend for having the cooler head and saying, that's a really dumb idea, don't do that. But, like, that's the kind of thing that in a certain circumstance seems like a good idea. I'm just gonna do this thing. It's gonna cut off a bunch of time. It'll be fine. But can turn into a tragedy. And that's what happened here. I really believe in his mind he got turned around or whatever, but he just thought, if I cut this corner, I can cut across this field and through this park, across the golf course and everything else, and then I'll be on the other side and I'll save myself a bunch of time. And I think he did that. And there was no one there to say, don't do that. That's a really bad idea. And this happened. And I think there are a lot, frankly, of missing persons cases where we already know the answer. We just haven't found the person. You know, they're in some sort of area where it just hadn't been searched yet. I mean, we've. The Brandon Lawson case is a good example of that. Where eventually, you know, that case, which was so mysterious, had the 911 call turned out to be exactly what we thought it was. He had just wandered off into that wilderness and died. And this was a little bit more traumatic, but it's a similar thing. And for whatever reason, the search didn't find him.
- [53:17]
Alice
And to put a little more color on his state of mind, he was already angry, but now he's two hours into being angry, and then his phone dies probably because of the torrential downpour, and he's stuck in the rain, he's dripping wet, There's Lightning, there's, you know, probably some hail coming down. I mean it's horrible. So he's even more mad because whenever he turns up he's gonna look like a sad wet dog. And that's embarrassing. He's clearly a prideful man. So he's angry at himself now in addition to angry at everyone else. And he wants to end this or shorten it as much as possible. So I think that's exactly right. I mean he doesn't even have his phone to look the down to, right to call for help or to even know north, south, east, west. And so if he leaves the road at all, which may be very easy to do even if he weren't meaning to do so because the roads are kind of being washed out with the river rising so quickly. There's mud everywhere, you can't really see in the dark. 10 o', clock, even though it's summertime now, it's pitch black. At 7 o', clock, there's still light. 10 o', clock, it's pitch black. 9 o', clock, it's already, maybe there's a glimmer, a hint of light in the sky, but now it's pitch black. His pride is hurt on many, on many points. He's probably now irrationally angry at everyone, angry at aunt Katie, angry at, you know, his mom for putting him in the situation in the first place, at his wife, at his angry himself, brother in law angry. And mostly I think he was angry at himself. And when you're like that, you're not cool headed and you make bad decisions.
- [54:46]
Brett
And it's such a tragic case, isn't it? Because what an absolute waste for just the dumbest reason, you know, I mean all these cases we cover are tragic, but this is just so pointless. I mean it wasn't even, I mean, I'd say it wasn't even a murder but there wasn't even any reason behind it, you know, there wasn't any great evil that was after him or this horrible terrible thing that some criminals fighting demons. Yeah, exactly. He wasn't even on meth or anything like that.
- [55:17]
Alice
He had a three month old son, he was about to start a new job. Like he was golfing that day. Yeah, I mean like that's a nice.
- [55:24]
Brett
Golfing in the morning and lost and wet and then dead by that night. Just, I don't know, it's a horrible story in a lot of ways. I mean it's just so tragic that that can happen to somebody and it just, you know, once again, as we always say, we try and draw some sort of lesson out of these cases. I don't know what exactly the lesson is, but don't take shortcuts, maybe.
- [55:54]
Alice
Or be willing, be willing to accept if you're wrong. Because if he just. Yeah, if he didn't try to take a shortcut or if he honestly sat under a tree and waited it out. But you can imagine, like pride keeps you from doing that, right?
- [56:07]
Brett
If he just told his wife where he really was and said, hey, I'm sorry, I'm gonna stop here in town. It's raining, so I'm getting under some cover. I will wait on you. Just come get me, you know, So, I don't know, y' all need to be less angry, I guess this one, one thing. So anyways, sad case, but like I said, I think one that has a lot of lessons. That's why we were always going to cover this case. But once it was solved, I was like, oh God, we got to cover this case because it's a cold water case. It's a straightforward case. It's Nauckam's razor case. And for all the theories, you know, I think one of his Facebook Pages had like 75,000 people on it. And whenever you have 75,000 people on a true crime page, you can only imagine the things that people came up with on there. And I also think the closure is important too, because also when you have 75,000 people on a Facebook page, a lot of them are not willing to accept reality. But this is reality. Reality is this was a simple, tragic, horrific accident. But it wasn't a murder, it wasn't a conspiracy, it wasn't a cover up. It was just something that shouldn't have happened but did anyway. All right, do you want to answer some questions?
- [57:27]
Alice
Let's do it. Yes.
- [57:29]
Brett
So as you guys, I'm sure know by now, if you leave a five star review anywhere and asks us a question, we will answer it on the podcast. Someone asked if we think this is like Maura Murray. I referenced Maur Murray earlier because, yes, that's. She's in the woods. I mean, that's where she is. She wandered off into the woods or fled into the woods or ran into the woods or whatever. And she's still there to this day.
- [57:53]
Alice
And I think she was in a similar state except it was more drawn out. The, like week leading up to this, she was just not in a good place, like emotionally. And it was just yet another mistake. Her card of growing mistakes. And she was really frustrated and I think she wanted to fix it for herself, Maybe hike off and go get help instead of have the police come and cite a report, probably get a citation and she was just gonna go fix it herself, but maybe fell into a ravine.
- [58:19]
Brett
Okay, so Anna B. Wants to know, how do you think guilty people live with themselves? How do you think someone like Scott Peterson can still, after 20 years, through trials and appeals and everything else, claim they are innocent when they know they are not?
- [58:37]
Alice
I don't know because I can't live with myself. I think it makes it easier when people are making documentaries about you proclaiming your innocence and you get fan letters and women throwing themselves at you, offering to have conjugal visits with you all the time. And all that goes away when you admit the horror that you did. So, similar to the previous lesson that we said about not believing the lies that are on Reddit or online generally, don't give oxygen to the guilty people who are doing stuff like that and making money off of your clicks.
- [59:12]
Brett
I mean, I think it's several things. Number one, I think people lie to themselves all the time. You can convince yourself of anything. Right. I mean, I think he's probably convinced himself of something at this point. The other thing, don't underestimate how many people murder their significant other and blame them for it. I mean, this was always my theory in the Karen Reed case. The reason Karen Reed shows no remorse for the death that she caused of John o' Keefe is because she's convinced herself it was his fault.
- [59:42]
Alice
Like which she said in the voicemails after she hit him.
- [59:46]
Brett
Yeah.
- [59:46]
Alice
That it was his fault.
- [59:47]
Brett
Yeah. I mean, and I think that she's the righteous one, so why should she be upset? Right? I think a lot of people do that. And then I just think their self preservation. If you're in prison and you want to get out of prison, you can't say you did it. You know, his crazy sister in law will believe he's innocent until the end of time. You know, and she's got powerful people who now support him, who, presumably if he said he did it, would not support him, though who knows with some of them. Right? And if you just keep pounding that drum long enough, maybe eventually you get out. Maybe eventually. You know, when he was convicted, everyone knew he was guilty. Everybody knew he was guilty. And then 20 years later, you have podcasts and documentaries and everything else saying he's innocent. So maybe one day he gets out. That's his only hope. The same thing with Jeffrey McDonald. Jeffrey McDonald is never going to admit that he did it. You know, he's always going to live that lie until the very end. And I just think if you're the kind of person who. Your conscience gets to you, that's going to happen fairly quickly. Like, you're going to turn yourself in or you're going to admit it, you know, or. Or you're just going to completely break down when you're interviewed by the police. Like, I would not be able to do it even if I tried. I would break down. But if you're someone who can get through that, if you can sit in a nationally televised interview with whoever it was, one Barbara Walters, but whoever it was, like he did and deny it all, he's never gonna admit it.
- [61:15]
Alice
So.
- [61:15]
Brett
And what's amazing is there are people out there who, because he won't admit.
- [61:18]
Alice
It, think he's innocent, which is crazy. We just, you know, again, like, how easily that Reddit poster could lie. Same. Right. It's not just people who commit murderers who can lie without even twitching their eye. A lot of people can lie really quickly, but I'm kind of the opposite. I have such an intense conscience. I remember this distinctly. We were living in D.C. and I was shopping at maybe Stop and shop, something like that. A grocery store, right? And I had my grocery cart. And if you've shopped in D.C. you know, like, you have to carry all your groceries. It's getting dark, it's cold. It's not, you know, a fun time of year, has a long line because everyone's going there after work. And I was like, pushing my cart, and I had a bag of carrots. What do you call it? Like, literally one carrot. It was like a big one. Not, not the baby carrots in a produce bag. And I'd stuck it underneath the cart so it was like, at the bottom because there wasn't space on top. And after I checked out, like, as we checked out, I said, I paid and there's a long line behind me. And I realized they had not rung up the carrot. But I didn't say anything because I'd already paid. And I was like, I don't want to get, like, get everyone mad and, like, have to do this again. So I just kind of, like, walked out. This was like, literally one stalk, a carrot. It was probably 21 cents. And I walked out and I walked a block away. And I was like, I can't do this. And I turned around, walked back to that cash register, and put the stock of carrot on the, like, the belt. And she's like, what and there was like a whole long line of people. People started getting mad because they thought I was cutting the line. And I said, I didn't pay for this. And then I ran out of the store.
- [63:01]
Brett
Yeah, I'm the same way. If I realize, like they didn't ring something up, I always just can't do it. I just, I have a really guilty conscience, which is a good thing to do. You want to be like that? And I'll just say, those of you out there who want to maybe think Scott Peterson's innocent, you don't think people could ever maintain their innocence for that long actually be guilty? Go look up Roger Keith Coleman. So Roger Keith Coleman was convicted like back in the 80s for raping and murdering his sister in law. Sentenced to death in Virginia, maintained his innocence was a cause celeb in the innocence movement. He was on the COVID of Time magazine as like this champion for abolishing the death penalty. All these calls for clemency. But despite all this, Virginia stood firm and said, no, this man is guilty. He was executed in 1992. His last words were, an innocent man is going to be murdered tonight. And for years he was pointed to as an innocent person who had been executed until 14 years later in 2006, Virginia ordered, even though he was already dead, Virginia ordered DNA testing on the semen found in his victim's body. And guess whose it was. It was Roger Keith Coleman. He'd been lying the whole time. He'd absolutely did it. And his last words were a lie. Even his last words, he didn't say something else like, you know, God have mercy on my soul? No, his last words were a lie about the murder he had committed. So just never, never second guess the depravity of people and their ability to lie to the bitter end.
- [64:45]
Alice
Well, that's a positive note.
- [64:47]
Brett
Yeah. Trust no one. Okay.
- [64:49]
Alice
Happy 2026, y'. All.
- [64:51]
Brett
Yeah, happy 2026. All right, guys. Well, this was a really interesting case, one that was recommended to us. If you have recommendations for cases you'd like to cover, the very best way to do that is to email us@seclimitors podgmail.com. you can also follow us on all the social media at Prosecutors Pod, whether it's Twitter or Instagram or threads. Is that one all those things? Just follow us in all those places. If you want to interact with us more, join the gallery on Facebook. The gallery is our fan run discussion discussion board.
- [65:31]
Alice
Let's call it a discussion page because it actually has way more discussion than anything to do with us.
- [65:36]
Brett
It's true. It's awesome. You guys love it.
- [65:38]
Alice
It is awesome.
- [65:38]
Brett
If you want to watch us record these episodes early and add free. If you want to just watch us record them, you can pay $3. We're actually recording this before Christmas, so that's how early you could have gotten this back to back. We've recorded, you know, part one last night and part two tonight. So for only $3, you can listen that. Or if you don't want to see us do it, but you'd like to get the episodes early and add free also for $3 a month. All right, Alice, is there anything else you want to say before we sign off for tonight?
- [66:09]
Alice
No. This is a sad case. Decisions you make can have eternal consequences. This is such a good reminder of that. So take that into the new year, guys.
- [66:18]
Brett
Absolutely. All right, well, we will be back next week with a new case, but until then, I'm Brett.
- [66:25]
Alice
And I'm Alice.
- [66:27]
Brett
And we are the prosecutors.
- [66:51]
Alice
How you doing?
- [66:55]
Brett
Doing good. How are you?
- [66:58]
Alice
Yeah, like I said, feel like I just ran a marathon.
- [67:02]
Brett
Well, you should be ready then.
- [67:04]
Alice
The last week of school, I'm sure other parents feel this. Like, it's Grinch day. It's funny pajama day. It's sock exchange day. Dress up like a reindeer day. And then there's also the whole, like, regular life, right? Yeah, but tis the season, and it's joyous, and they have the time of their lives.
- [67:23]
Brett
Yep. Yeah, I know there's somebody shared a meme. It was like, parents. I'm barely holding on in school. School. That's great. Now, on Wednesday, your kid needs to dress up like a fully functioning Transformers.
- [68:40]
Alice
The other day, it was. It was like, am. Pluto. Tv has thousands of free movies and tv shows. This is the mindset. Free. This is the mantra. Free. The. With movies like joe dirt, pixels, and 51st days. This is awesome. And tv shows like survivor, spongebob squarepants, the fairly odd parents, and ghosts. Pluto tv is always free. Huzzah. Pluto tv. Stream now, pay. Never.
- [69:54]
Brett
You're welcome.