Loading summary
Transcript140 lines
- [00:01]
A
Most people would rather assemble a 300 piece cabinet than search for insurance. That's why the zebra searches for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can Compare. Today@thezebra.com.
- [00:16]
B
A master murderer, Israel Keyes lives between two worlds. There's the person that everybody knows and.
- [00:23]
A
Loves, and then there's the guy who.
- [00:24]
B
Spends every waking hour planning on how he's going to kill someone on Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer. Or we find out how this deadly predator went unnoticed for so long.
- [00:35]
A
I've had some confessions in my history, but nothing to that detail.
- [00:38]
B
I'll give it blow by blow if you want. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Juliet Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the true crime podcast the Real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. It's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.
- [01:24]
A
I'm brett.
- [01:25]
B
And I'm alice.
- [01:26]
A
And we are the prosecut. Today on the Prosecutors. It's one of true crime's greatest mysteries. A woman's charred remains are located in a remote valley just outside of Bergen, Norway. In a twisty investigation, clues about her identity unfold like a series of riddles. Over 50 years later, we ask, who is the Isdale woman? Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always, by my bed. Orinde or bedorin day, I think is actually how you pronounce it.
- [02:30]
B
Co host Alice that was really good. Whatever language that was, I felt like you nailed it.
- [02:37]
A
Well, that's Norwegian, literally. Apparently in Norwegian, it means to stress.
- [02:43]
B
The ore, but no, I think it means. I think that's how you pronounce it.
- [02:49]
A
No. Oh. Oh, I see. Oh, I thought it's like if you're rowing.
- [02:53]
B
Well, Brett, you are so sick. I don't know that you should be recording right now.
- [02:58]
A
Well, it literally means charming or adorable. And you are charming and adorable.
- [03:02]
B
Or an or.
- [03:04]
A
What was that?
- [03:05]
B
Or an or.
- [03:06]
A
Well, they're like Vikings over in Norway, so, you know, they like boats.
- [03:09]
B
Well, how on point because we're talking about Norway today, so well done. I don't think I knew any Norwegian words before tonight, but now I know. Bendora day.
- [03:19]
A
Have you ever been to Norway? You've been so many places.
- [03:22]
B
Unfortunately, my brother lived there for six months for work and I did not go because I either had just had an. I was too late in my pregnancy to go. And then baby Alison was born. And then I was like, I should have traveled, but I didn't.
- [03:42]
A
Well, I can appreciate why you wouldn't go if you had a young baby. But I gotta say, I mean, Norway is high on my list of places I'd like to go. So maybe, maybe we can go visit and solve this case.
- [03:54]
B
Maybe we can do an episode there.
- [03:56]
A
There you go. I will say this is one of the famous cases in true crime, one of the most interesting cases in true crime. There is a great podcast speaking of Norway, put on by Norwegian radio and the BBC. It's called Death in Ice Valley and highly recommend it. It's really good, available wherever you get your podcast. So after you listen to us, you can listen to them and see. See what you think. They are pretty sold on one theory. I'll say that. That's all I'll say about it. But it's really good and you should listen to it. So with that, Alice, do you have anything you want to say before we dive in?
- [04:37]
B
I really want to dive in because this is like such. It's half a century mystery.
- [04:41]
A
It's true. So tucked away in the Seven Mountains region outside of Bergen, Norway, is the famous Isdelin Valley. Isdelin Valley, which translates to Ice Valley, hence the name of the podcast, is a popular hiking spot for locals, despite its remote nature, because it is probably like everywhere in Norway, I imagine, quite beautiful. It has lots of trails which wind around Lake Sverdiddict. I don't know how to pronounce that, but whatever. Are surrounded by picturesque hillsides and lined with fir trees. But behind the beauty, danger lurks. The terrain can be rugged and the hills are often steep. The trails are lined with signs of warning hikers that the paths are rocky and slippery. And as such, the area is no stranger to tragedy and has seen its fair share of accidental deaths of hikers over the years. And this, combined with the fact that the valley was a popular spot also for those looking to commit suicide during medieval times, earned it the popular moniker the Valley of Death. Reminds me, Alice, when we went to Russia and did the Dyatlov Pass case. It's the mountain of Death, Dead Mountain. And I just feel like, don't go places.
- [06:09]
B
I was gonna say they tell you in the name what's gonna Happen. Don't go, you know? Yeah, I don't know about you, but I guess maybe they named it after a lot of people died there. But if you tell me the name includes death in there, I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna stay on comfort couch. Comfort couch is where I will stay.
- [06:24]
A
I mean, think about a place where a bunch of people died. Is they died for a reason, right? Like, they were just like you, and now they're dead in the Valley of Death. So maybe you should avoid the Valley of Death. I don't know. That's just my advice for you. We have done way too many cases, and I've read about way too many cases where the place is named something like the Mountain of Death. The Valley of Death, the river of Death, Sea of Death, Cave of Death, whatever. Just don't go into the place named for death.
- [06:51]
B
That's just. It's free advice. I'll even call it legal advice.
- [06:55]
A
There you go.
- [06:56]
B
Fine.
- [06:56]
A
You can call legal advice again.
- [06:58]
B
But.
- [06:59]
A
In 1970, a body was discovered that was out of the ordinary, even for the Valley of Death. As investigators dug further into the victim's background and identity, the circumstances surrounding her death became more and more mysterious. Now, over 50 years later, not only are we no closer to solving the mystery of her death, we don't even know her true identity.
- [07:25]
B
Which seems crazy in this day and age with, like, genetic genealogy, how much we know with all the technological advances, maybe with these technological advances, are we going to get closer? I don't know. But first, we have to understand why, even though this is named the Valley of Death, this particular woman drew a lot of question marks. You would think the Valley of Death, another death, would not raise eyebrows. But let's dive into the investigation. So on the morning of November 29, 1972, girls ages 10 and 12, they were out walking around Lake Svartadeck with their father when they decided to explore a little ways off the path and up the hillside. By the way, this is the only way my kids go on walks, is to go off the beaten path and run around. One of these girls, all of a sudden, stumbled across a clearing in the forest. And to her horror, she made a gruesome discovery. Because sticking out of the jagged rocks was a woman's body. But it wasn't just anybody. It was blackened and charred, and her hands were raised almost as if she had been trying to shield her face. Now, this group quickly made their way from Istal Valley to the nearby city of Bergen, where they called the.
- [08:39]
A
The police can you imagine, I mean, you got a 10 year old and a 12 year old coming upon this. It's just awful. But that's something, something you never forget in, in Ice Valley. They actually talk about that, about how terrible this was for this group. But it also, you know, it gives you an idea of how isolated she was. I mean, this was actually kind of lucky that they even stumbled upon her and she wasn't on the path. Like they just happened to decide at this spot. I mean, as they're, you know, walking around the lake, there's a lot of different places they could have struck off and they decided to do it here. And they stumble upon this woman's body.
- [09:17]
B
And for these young girls to find it, I mean, the horror. If I, I would be scarred quite literally for life. And especially to see such a devastating picture, right, it's almost like she was frozen in the most horrific time of her life. And that's the way they found her. The police were called around 9 or 10am and they began the 40 minute trek up to the valley because obviously these girls and their father, they had to go all the way back to town in order to call the police. And the police have to go back out to this beautiful place. It's beautiful because it's remote now. The following is an excerpt directly from the police report. The body of a seemingly young naked woman lying in a steep scree of large stones on a clearing in the fir tree forest. The body lay outstretched on her back in a small opening between the rocks with the head to the northwest. And her legs were stretched out with the right foot slightly bent under the ankle of the left foot pinched between two slabs of rock. Both arms of the body were bent up in front of the chest in a position that is called boxer position on fire damaged bodies. Her head was bent backwards, resting on stony ground. The whole body was burned by fire. It was reddish brown and sooted and gave a convincing impression of having been enveloped by a short but intense surface fire. Extensive damage at the knees of the body, calves and lower thighs suggest, however, that a subsequent fire of a more prolonged nature has arisen here. It's assumed that this is connected with the finding of burned rubber boots by the knees of the body. Regarding a detailed description of the damages, we refer to the autopsy. The neck, head and the lower arms with hands that has not been covered were more sooted than the rest of the body.
- [11:09]
A
And yeah, so this boxer position thing, as Alice said when the girls first found her body, she has her hands like up as if she's sort of shielding herself or defending herself. And when you first see that, you think, okay, this is a sign of someone who's been attacked because she sort of died in a defensive position. But what we know is that when someone is in a fire like this, because of the way the skin reacts to fire, there's a contraction of the skin. And when that happens, it naturally pulls the arms up to the chest. So her arms weren't necessarily in that position when the fire began. And sort of living or dead when the fire began, it would cause that movement. So it doesn't tell us as much as you might initially thought. Also just the description of the fire. So this is a, as it says, a surface level fire. So basically, almost like a flash fire, it happens, it happens to her entire body. We're going to talk some more about the damage done to our body, but it's relatively fast. And then it creates this secondary fire. So essentially you have this initial fire, then a secondary fire at the sort of bottom of her body. Something catches on fire and burns for longer. And because that burns for longer, the lower part of her body is damaged. One thing that's interesting about this though is it doesn't seem as if she reacts against that second fire. So you have this initial fire, right? But then whenever the second fire happens, she doesn't roll away from it, she doesn't get away from it. So by that point she's either dead or incapacitated to a point that she can't react to it. And obviously, as we try and figure out what happened to her, that's going to be important. Let's see. Okay, so this continues. I mean, one good thing about this is because it's been a famous case and it's an old case, we have a lot of documentation and it has been translated into English, so you can find a lot of this stuff online. But we're going to read to you from as many of the primary documents as possible because this case is covered widely. But it also is a case that your imagination can run wild. And a lot of people do. It can be a really sexy case. And so we're trying to keep this as grounded as possible in these initial documents to try and dispel any sort of myths or rumors that have popped up about this case. Okay, so all the hair on the head was burned. So her hair had been completely burned away. But under the neck was found a small knot of hair, remains of a so called ponytail held together by a light blue hair loop bow tie. Okay, let's stop again and think about this. Okay? One thing we just said was the lower half of her body, whatever happened there, it happened after she was already deceased, after she already couldn't get away from the fire. Right. Well, this is interesting because her hair would have been burned away in this initial flash fire. Like whatever happened would have been burning her hair. But the ponytail is protected because presumably as the fire is happening, her head is already down, it's against the ground, her ponytail is underneath her, and therefore it's not burned. Well, what does this indicate? It indicates once again that when this fire happened, either she was basically incapacitated very quickly by the fire itself, to the point that essentially she kind of falls backwards, then doesn't move again despite the fact there's a fire or she's already dead. Because if she had moved, then you would assume the ponytail would have burned, or you would have found the ponytail. If it, like burned to a certain extent, that the hair sort of like fell off in a ponytail, you would assume you would find that somewhere else. But you don't. You find the remains of it underneath her head, still held together by this light blue hair loop bow tie. So I think that's significant as well when we're thinking about what happened to this lady. Okay, now, one thing that we mentioned earlier, these girls found her, but it was complete fluke, right? It wasn't as if she was in the middle of the path and anyone who went up there would have found her. So there's a possibility that it would have taken some time to find her. But the police report that the body seemed fresh, it was stiff, but it did not smell. So it seems as though this is a relatively new thing. She hasn't been out there for weeks, for instance.
- [15:42]
B
So this is a question for, like, medical examiners. To what extent does the burning preserve a body? Because obviously a body starts decomposing the moment, really that life stops flowing through it. But does burning do anything to help preserve the body so that it may seem fresh, so to speak? Longer.
- [16:04]
A
I mean, I'm not a medical examiner. Fortunately, we don't have Jessica Scott Morgan on for this episode. I mean, I guess when you cook meat, it tends to last a little longer, right?
- [16:15]
B
Especially when it's charred.
- [16:16]
A
Especially when it's charred.
- [16:18]
B
If you sear meat, it like, the purpose of doing that is it locks in moisture and moisture. If you have retained moisture, there's slower decomposition.
- [16:27]
A
Also, it is November 29th in Norway. Now, my understanding of the weather is it was cold, but not so cold There wasn't snow piled up everywhere or anything, which I just assumed. Norway is always like that. Like in my mind, Norway is just always covered in snow, even in like June. Apparently that's not true. But so like it had been kind of rainy, but it wasn't freezing cold. So probably it's not the summer. This is not West Memphis, Arkansas, for instance. Right. So the decomposition is going to take a little bit longer. As you said, she had been burned. So I think that probably is a factor. We're going to see more evidence later probably when this happened. But I think it's pretty clear whatever had happened was relatively soon though probably not that day or even the day before, as we're going to see a little bit later. Okay, so several fragments of clothing remained on the body on both the lower arms. It sort of cuffs their remains of some sort of synthetic material. So remember, she's found unclothed, but it's not because she took her clothes off. Right. She wasn't nude whenever this happened to her. So this isn't like, could be a sexual assault that ended in a murder. It could be that. But the fact that she's not wearing any clothes ordinarily would be indicative of something like that. It's not here because essentially whatever she was wearing was highly flammable or there was something on her that was flammable because it had led to most of her clothes just being burned off. And so what you're seeing is the clothes, like her shirt is essentially burned all the way down to her wrist, where you're seeing sort of the cuffing of her shirt is still remaining. The stomach, crotch and hips were covered by black burned remains of different textiles. So including her lower body, the sort of areas that you would expect to see some sort of sexual assault occur, the remains of textiles were on them, indicating that she was wearing clothes when she was burned. On her right foot there were remains of dark blue stretched trousers with a stocking pulled over, while the left foot apparently had been undressed with a stocking found lying on the ground at the right thigh of the body. Okay, now this is interesting because it says if she's taken off one stocking or someone has taken off one stocking, but not the other one. She's still wearing one of them, but she has one of them off, which is a weird thing. And that's only going to continue under the left calf knee. There were relatively well preserved fire remains of a rubber boot, a so called sailor stovall, which is a sailor boot. It's the Model brand of the boot. At the right knee, there were white remains of ashes with a clear outline of a rubber sole shoe. So remember, what do we have here? On her left side, we have a boot and we have a stocking that had been removed. On the right side, her boot and her stocking were still on her body whenever this fire began. And at this point, you know, as you're hearing this, you're starting to develop ideas about what exactly is going on here, what happened here. Part of this feels very much like a postmortem thing. She doesn't seem to have moved much after she caught on fire, for instance. Right. But on the other hand, why is one boot and sock removed and the other not? This makes it almost feel like something sudden happened. Like she was in the process of removing her shoes and all of a sudden there was this fire. But if that were, is there not more evidence of sort of her struggling against the flames as you would expect? Just things to be thinking about as we continue through this. Draped over a stone to the right of the body, there were ample remains of a woolen sweater. On the same stone, the skeleton of a burned blue nylon lady umbrella was standing. So it's almost as if she's put down her umbrella, she's put a woolen sweater on this stone. The fire burned both of those things, but both of these things were sort of sitting on this stone when whatever happened happened on the same side. At a short distance, an almost empty quarter bottle of Kloster liquor was standing. This is a Norwegian liquor. I mean, like a vodka type drink, Right? So basically, at this site where this happened, there is a bottle of almost empty liquor.
- [21:11]
B
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home.
- [21:35]
A
And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework, guys.
- [22:05]
B
The weather is so cold. It is perfect. Curl up with your favorite blanket weather. And I love my blankets. That's why I was so excited to get my Lola blanket. But I was not prepared for when I first felt the Lola blanket. All the hype you hear about it, it's absolutely true. It is gorgeous. It's weighted, it's luxurious. It is probably the best blanket that ever existed. It is my favorite blanket. It's what I curl up in front of the fire every single night. I'm about to go curl up with it right now. It is just not able to be compared to any other blanket that you've ever owned. It's my favorite and if you get it, you'll see why. Because Lola is the world's number one blanket. Crafted with ultra soft luxury faux fur and a signature four way stretch that sets it apart. And it's machine washable, double hemmed for durability and stays flawless. No pilling, no shedding even after repeated washes. I would know. I have four kids. They love it just as much as me. And it's able to keep up with all of their wear and tear.
- [23:12]
A
Guys, it's impossible to overstate how awesome Loli is. It's got 20,000 five star reviews. It's the world's number one blanket for a reason. I love Lola blankets with a passion that's unnatural. When I had to get a present for my mother for Christmas, I got her Lola blanket because it's awesome. I love it. I want more of them. I can't have enough Lola blankets. That's the one thing you'll be addicted to them because they are so soft and they are so awesome and they are so warm and you need one if you don't have one. And now is the time. For a limited time our listeners can get 40% off select Lola blanket products with Code Prosecutors at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code prosecutors to get 40% off your order after purchase. They'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola blankets. I'm no designer but I know my brand inside and out and I know a generic looking website when I see one. Wix Harmony has blown me away. It's a website builder that lets me switch back and forth between using AI and hands on editing tools so I can create a website exactly the way I pictured it. I even get a personal AI agent that's an expert in web design and helps me out. Try it out for free@wix.com Harmony that's wix.com Harmony the Fed's out of options.
- [24:37]
C
Rate cuts, money printing, balance sheet reversals. They call it policy, but it's really panic. This is in game economics, where hope replaces discipline and the illusion of control finally breaks. They're not cutting rates because things are strong. They're cutting because the system is cracking. Inflation's eating savings. The labor market's stalling. Confidence in the dollar is fading fast. For decades, the Fed built a house of paper. Now they're striking the match that could burn it all down, leaving you to pay the price. When's the last time you actually held the wealth you've spent your life working for? My friends at Noble Gold Investments have been helping Americans move from paper wealth to into real, tangible assets. Numbers on a screen can disappear, but physical gold and silver, they've outlasted every crisis in history. Visit noblegoldinvestments.com and get your free wealth protection kit today. That's noblegoldinvestments.com for your free Wealth Protection Kit. Discover how simple it is to protect your future. Past performance may not be indicative of future results. Investing in precious metals, including gold, involves risks. Consult with your tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment decision.
- [25:40]
B
Two things kind of jumped to mind to me. One, someone, if someone drank three fourths of a bottle of that liquor, that's a lot of liquor, especially if it's a woman. Or Second, if three fourths of the bottle is missing. Alcohol is an accelerant and clearly fire has happened here, but the bottle is not, say, burned, charred remains on the body. If something had happened like that, and it almost seems like if it were the accelerant to be used, someone who was not her because she was consumed by the fire immediately set that bottle down a ways away, maybe a safe distance to watch the flame. And then the other kind of haunting picture of her was that she had this bag or purse. The like plastic remains of it because it had burned up were on her left thigh. As if, if it's at your left thigh. My thought is she was wearing it. So where she's set down the sweater and the umbrella seems like, ladies, if you have a purse, it's typically hits my thigh if I am wearing it. So the fact that it's on her thigh may be that she was still wearing her purse, which I usually have my purse on if I'm still walking around. But if I'm sitting down, I usually take my purse off. So this is just A kind of a haunting image of this bag that's burnt remains is on her thigh.
- [26:59]
A
So I want to correct myself because I've already misspoken. So it's not Norwegian and it's actually important that it's not Norwegian. So this liquor is actually Bavarian, it's from Germany, it's made by the Etler Abbey and It is between 38 and 44% alcohol by volume. Now that's important for a few reasons. Number one, because if you drink most of that bottle, you'll be pretty drunk, but it's actually not alcoholic enough that you would expect it to catch on fire. It needs to be a little bit higher than that, needs to be closer to like 70%. I think, like Bacardi 151 is a liquor that you can use to catch things on fire. That's 75% alcohol, right? So it's short of what you would need for it to catch on fire. So it's probably more likely something someone was drinking than something someone was either using intentionally or accidentally to spark this fire.
- [28:00]
B
So this goes on along the feet of this body. On a slightly higher stone, there were two white plastic bottles that formed as flasks. One of them was somewhat deformed by the heat, containing a small amount of water. The other one was slightly deformed at the twist off bottle and completely full of what was also presumed to be water. Now, both bottles were supplied with a small carabine hook attached at the bottleneck. We referred to the analysis report by production manager Eid at the Norwegian Medical Supplies Depot regarding the contents of the bottle. And that report concluded that the bottles contained pure water. There's just water. I guess when you go on a hike, you take water. On the above mentioned stone, there was also a deformed white plastic cup that presumably had melted down due to the fire. In the cup, the shapeless remains of a colorless plastic spoon. And on that same stone there was also a partly burnt circular flat lid made of plastic. A green and checkered woolen scarf was spread over the edge of the stone so that the lower part that hung close to the foot of the body was burnt off. It looked like the flames at the feet of the body had flashed up along the rocks in this area and had influenced the the said plastic items. On the rock in the feet area, no wood or other material for an open fire was found. What really stood out to me of this whole description is that there were two flasks. Not that one person can't bring two water bottles. In fact, if you're going to go on a long hike, you might do that. But when we're trying to assess the scene, what does this look like? It looks like the rock was a table used for a snack and maybe a drink. Because there's a spoon, there's some sort of a cup, there's two separate flasks with one of them still full and one of them almost empty. Now, that could go two ways. Could be two people with two flasks. Or it could be you were going to go for a hike, you brought two flasks, you were almost done with one bottle, hadn't started the next one.
- [30:05]
A
You know, it's funny because I always find myself thinking about what I would do in these situations, which some people hate. But nevertheless, I mean, I think that's the only way you can analyze this stuff. It's just bringing your own experience as much as you can. And I will say this, I am not. This is going to shock everyone. Not the world's greatest hiker. Not in the best shape. And when I go hiking, I always take a ton of water, like, way more than I probably should. And the height gets easier as I go because I'm drinking the water, because I got like a gallon of water in my backpack and it's weighing me down. And I'm like, drinking it probably faster than I should just to get rid of it because it's like so heavy in the back. So to me, I have a. Like, if you found me dead on the side of the mountain, you think, man, he brought up there, like 10 people with him, like, eight different bottles of water and a bottle of Gatorade and a beer in there. It's like so much stuff, man. He must have a whole party up here. It's like they sacrificed him or something, right? Like, it would be the Odinist by the time they got finished with me, but it should be just me because that's how much water I have. So it's hard for me to draw too much. You're right, though.
- [31:08]
B
I mean, it is interesting the fact that one is completely full, whereas the other one looks like it drank a lot. You would assume if it were two people, they were hiking the same distance together, that they would probably drink at somewhat of the same rate. Right. And so the fact that one is completely full, I tend to lean towards. She just had two flasks, but she put them both out. It didn't stay in her bag. That's interesting. You know, was she going to stay there for a while?
- [31:31]
A
So, you know, What I'm wanting you to imagine is. And you can find pictures, like, black and white photos of this, and there's a woman's body in the middle of them. But it's not as graphic as you might expect if you saw something like that. But, you know, she's in this, like. It's hard to describe. I mean, there. You've ever been to sort of a rocky area with a whole bunch of boulders and stuff. There's sort of all these boulders on this side of a hill, and she's kind of in the middle of them. There's like one big boulder and, like, another big boulder, and she's kind of up against those. Her head's, like up against a big boulder behind her, and then there's a big boulder to her side, and there's a few other boulders. And then it's almost like she's in the middle and around her, sort of surrounding her, all these things, you know, and they're just kind of set out on different rocks around her. Whether it's, you know, on one side is where she put the sweater and where she put the umbrella. I mean, it's almost like, you know, one possibility. If you've ever been sort of out hiking and you walked around for a little while and you've got some water and you got some food, you know, you could imagine just, like, sitting down in a place like this and you're sort of spreading everything out, and you got like, I'm going to drink some water. Maybe like, just chill here and enjoy the beauty. Maybe I'll write in my journal a little bit or something. I mean, you know, anybody who's ever traveled to a beautiful place, particularly when you're young and you thought it was really important to do things like that, sit down and write about, like, the amazing, wonderful things that you're seeing and all the epiphanies you're having. Like, you can totally imagine doing that. And so initially you see this, and it kind of feels like that. You know, one of the weird things to me is this plastic cup with a plastic spoon in it. I mean, it could be anything, right? Like, she could have had some gelato or something she was eating, right? But it is sort of weird to think about. You know, you got that it's like sitting there next to these two flasks. And what significance, if any, does that have? One thing that's interesting about this, because as people are walking through this, you know, they're thinking about sort of maybe she did sit down, and maybe she built A fire, you know, you know, it's no, it's late November, she's building a fire. She's not in nowhere, no big deal. She's gonna put it out and then something happens. You know, there's one guy whose theory is she decided to put some hairspray on. She's like sitting next to the fire and she's like using hairspray. And at the time in particular, and I guess even now hairspray was incredibly flammable. And so like, you know, the hairspray ignited and the bottle blew up and flames and she fell in the fire and all this other stuff happened. Right. Well, the problem with that, as this notes, and this is one of those things that's often misreported because it's often reported there was a fire like a fire, like not she caught on fire and then she caught something else on fire. But there was a fire that existed before this happened. This points out that's not true. And there's nothing there that was used to build a fire. There's no wood, there's no kindling, no.
- [34:30]
B
No circular area where you would build a fire. So quick question, how strenuous is this hike? I've clearly never hiked here before. Is this a, I mean a 10 year old and a 12 year old, you know, were out for a jaunt. So it's not Dyatlov Pass, I know that much. This woman clearly is carrying like an umbrella. I don't think you would carry an umbrella if you had to use all four of your limbs to climb up, say like a Dyatlov Pass. So how strenuous is this hike? And where she is obviously is a clearing. So it can't be very mountainous. And it's not necessarily mountainous. The purpose of hiking here is the lake. So what is the, I guess, terrain here?
- [35:09]
A
So kind of like Dyatlov Pass, it's like the Mountain of the Dead. And in reality that just means that like nothing grows there. It's like not as intense. Well, there are really dangerous. This is my understanding, I've never been there, obviously, but from reading about it, there are really dangerous parts of this valley. Like if you're scaling the walls of the valley and you fall, you can really hurt yourself and that can be really difficult. There are parts of that are very difficult hikes. This, as you have already indicated, given that we have a 10 and 12 year old, the part around the lake is not strenuous at all. This is a very common walk that people in the area will take. Very easy no big deal. It was a little bit more strenuous to get up to where she was or get down to where she was. I'm not exactly sure if it was a little bit above the path, a little bit below the path, but once again, not so strenuous that a 10 and 12 year old just striking off didn't find it. So it's not that difficult a hike and it would not have required any special skill to be able to reach this place. And it's not the kind of place that no one ever goes.
- [36:13]
B
And clearly, even if it was strenuous, it wasn't a fall that killed her. It's the fire, right, that's standing out here. So even if this were like the scaling, you know, very steep part of the valley, that's not what killed her in this situation. And the fact, just the fact that she has, she's carrying an umbrella and that she, if it's her, has a bottle of alcohol indicates to me this is not like we are setting out for this like five mile hike. Because you typically don't drink alcohol when you're on like a stre hike because it dehydrates you. But you may do that if it's like a leisurely beauty nature walk. Right?
- [36:50]
A
And another thing to note, the shoes she's wearing, so she's not wearing hiking boots, she's wearing those, like rubber, you.
- [36:57]
B
Know, like marshy shoes. Like if it's going to be wet outside, you throw them on galoshes, basically. Not full on galoshes, but like it's muddy outside, you're going to go feed the pigs or something. You put those on.
- [37:09]
A
Exactly. Like she's basically dressed not for a hike so much as I'm going to walk outside where it's going to be wet and rainy. I got my boots on, got my sweater on, got my scarf on, got my umbrella. Like I'm ready to rock and roll, right? But I'm not ready to climb Mount Everest or even Dyatlov Pass. Right. And you're right to point all this out because it is sometimes presented as though she's in an incredibly rural area. I mean, she is in that this is the kind of place if you're a tourist in Norway, you're gonna strike out and have your little hike and it's gonna be amazing and beautiful and you're gonna take lots of pictures and Instagram and everything else, but you know, you're probably gonna have service the whole time, right? Like this is not. She was hiking through, you know, Death Valley. Or something like the real Death Valley in California where you actually will die. And you shouldn't do that. Like it's not like that. Like this is not strenuous at all. It's not particularly remote. There are people around this area all the time. Even though these girls did happen to stumble upon her, and this was a little bit fortuitous that they did, once again, it's the kind of place that kids would stumble upon someone. So all important in the context of what happened to her and how she ended up there. But it doesn't seem like she started a fire. It seems like what happened is she caught on fire and any fire that happened was ancillary to that. Okay, so we continue because there's more. This is a very long report. I mean, this is exactly what you want. They describe for you exactly what they see. Right. On the earth covered rocks under the body, there was found ample remains of characteristic burnt and melted remains of synthetic textiles. Where the body had laid at the left knee was a steel lady wristwatch mark solo with a black imitation leather strap. So she's wearing the watch. And the watch obviously was burned. Part of the strap was burned off, but the metal buckle remained in place and unscathed. Weak burn marks on the inside of the strap indicates that it hardly could have been strapped to the arm, which is weird. So like she's wearing this watch, I guess it's not that weird. She's wearing it. She's wearing it very loosely, right? Which I think, I guess a lot of people do. A lot of people wear their watches very loosely. She's doing that. And this is indicative of the fact, the way it burned didn't burn her wrist. So they know it wasn't like strapped tight to her arm. To the extent that is significant. The watch stopped at 12:32pm and had another eight or so hours of power reserve. So the watch did not die. It stopped probably because of the heat. Which means assuming that the watch was set correctly, it would have been about 1232. Now a lot of people say, I've read this so many places that the time on the watch is the same time that watches are set to when they're sold. That doesn't seem to be true. I mean, 1232 is not.
- [40:19]
B
I've never seen a.
- [40:20]
A
What I would think 1232.
- [40:23]
B
And also, don't watches get set? Every watch I've bought is running, is running when I open it because they're showing that it works.
- [40:30]
A
Right? So I just feel like that's. I feel like that is one of those things people say because it's more mysterious. It's like, why is she wearing a watch that's still set to the time that it's set at when you buy a watch from the store? But it doesn't seem like that's true. And as you said, most watches already running now it's 1970. So maybe in 1970 they didn't wind watches until they started. But yeah, somebody says they used to be set to 10, 10. I've seen that as well because it makes a little V. Right. And it's like attractive. It looks attractive when you look at it. But I've never. 1232 is a very strange. I mean it's almost a line. But it's not because you. 1232, not 1230.
- [41:13]
B
Okay, this is an interesting question, completely unrelated. If you. What is the most attractive time for a watch? I would say 3 o' clock for me because it's like the classic. Like when you draw a clock as a kid, like I always drew like the L because it was a right angle and it was very. And it's like, I guess because I'm right handed, it's in the direction that I'm thinking of. You know, everything moves from left to right for me. So like when I drew a clock as a kid, I always drew like an L. So a three o'.
- [41:41]
A
Clock. I like that. I would say midnight or noon.
- [41:45]
B
Sure.
- [41:46]
A
Or that, you know, lined up right on the 12. But yeah, I don't know that's a good.
- [41:51]
B
In other words, I don't know that 1232 is. I don't think there's any backup that 1232 is the time being set.
- [41:58]
A
So there are two reports not in this document, so take them with a grain of salt, much like this that are interesting. One of them says that it wasn't just that the watch was loosely attached then in reality she wasn't even wearing it, that it was there sort of on her body, but she had taken it off, maybe put it on with those rocks and it had sort of fallen over or something. I don't know if that's true or not. It does seem like from this report it's very loosely attached, if it's attached at all. So maybe that's how we got to this whole. Oh, she wasn't even really wearing it. Now one thing that people have said that I think is true, even though it's not in this report, is that the strap is on backwards. So like the buckle on the strap was fixed to the 6 o' clock side of the case instead of the 12 o' clock side. Honestly, I don't even know if I would notice that. Like if I bought a watch that was like that, I would just be like, oh, I guess that's just the way it is, right? Like now I want to go get my watch and like try it on.
- [43:03]
B
Yeah, but.
- [43:05]
A
Yeah, but so maybe the watch is a little weird. We don't know. I think 1232 is a pretty good indicator of that's when the fire started.
- [43:13]
B
But so in other words, broad daylight.
- [43:15]
A
Middle of the middle of the day.
- [43:16]
B
A lot of sun. Not like even in winter, even in Norway. In Norway it's still going, there's going.
- [43:22]
A
To be daylight right close to the watch. Two large ear clips, impressed filigree made in silver coated brass on the top. Each clip had a 4 millimeter large turquoise glass stone. The clips measured 25 millimeters across and are circular shaped. I don't know what an ear clip is. I'll be honest with you. Some sort of jewelry accoutrement of women. Maybe it's something that goes in the hair over the ears. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but she had these pieces of jewelry.
- [43:56]
B
I assume ear clips mean because this is 50 years ago, I assume they're clip on earrings. That's what I thought when I read. So they're like earrings but they're not the ones that go through pierced ears. They like quite literally.
- [44:09]
A
That makes sense.
- [44:10]
B
Snap onto your ear is my guess.
- [44:12]
A
That makes sense because at the same place there's a ring in the same material that was found. It was oval shaped with a large oval yellow white rock in a claw fitting. The rock measured approximately 30 by 18 millimeters. Most likely the rock had a colored membrane that had been burnt off. And these things were relatively intact apart from smoke damage. And what they indicated was that before all this happened, and this is a weird thing, right? And this goes to the watch and like was she wearing the watch or not wearing the watch? It seems like she took off her earrings and she took off her ring and put them on one of these rocks next to her. And when the fire happened, they got damaged by some of the smoke and maybe some of the heat, but they weren't on her when the fire began.
- [45:00]
B
So this piece is really interesting because whenever we look at a potential crime scene, we think what's missing and what's not missing. And if anything, if this were a robbery, you would think that jewelry would be something that would be taken right away. And the other thing that's interesting to me is that this sounds pretty distinctive, right? We clearly still don't know who this woman is, but it's been burned. But we still kind of know the color of the stone, that they are a matching set. They're clip on earrings, not pierced earrings. And it matches a ring as well, you would think. Jewelry has often been used, especially in fire situations to identify a victim when they are burned beyond recognition. But stones and metals tend to survive better that if someone knew what she wore. And the fact that she's wearing it on a quote unquote hike, however strenuous this is, tends to lead me to believe that this is something she wore regularly. Because unlike when I go out to dinner or like a fun evening, I may put on some special jewelry that I don't wear often. But if I'm just going out for a walk, whatever's on me is on me. I don't get dressed up in jewelry in order to go on a walk. So if you find jewelry on me, I'm wearing a necklace right now. It's because I never take this necklace off. So I tend to believe that this is not something she got dressed up for. It wasn't an occasion because she's just wearing a scarf and a sweater and what appear to be pants, not some fancy dress up clothes, that this is what she wears all the time. Which may indicate that someone who knew her would be able to identify her based on this pretty distinctive jewelry.
- [46:35]
A
And this is a really good point for a couple reasons. Number one, now you wouldn't expect, I guess, someone to rob someone in the middle of like this valley. So maybe it's not that surprising that there's no real sign that her, her valuables were stolen. But one thing we're going to see as we continue, as we said, she's never been identified. And there's a reason for that. Someone took a lot of steps to conceal her identity, as you're going to see as we continue. But one thing they didn't do, as Alice pointed out, is take the jewelry with her. And as everyone knows, jewelry can be incredibly identifying for a woman or even a man. I mean, when we talked about Mary Morris. Mary Morris, exactly. Her rings, those were important, right? Bryce Lapisa, like he had those earrings which were really. He gave them away. But I mean, they could have been a really big problem.
- [47:31]
B
I think about that all the time. So my engagement ring is one of a kind, like it was made for me. So I'm like, good. No one Else has this exact same ring. So I can be identified by it and I never take it off. So I think about this all the time. I'm like, if I'm burned, if something happens to me, I have a one of a kind ring that can identify me.
- [47:50]
A
This may sound a little weird. I was reading about Nazi war criminals because I like Nuremberg and stuff. And actually that is one of the way they would identify them. Because these people, like the guy who was the commandant of Auschwitz, for instance, like one thing they would do when the war ended, they would just try and blend back into the community. And so they would become like farmers and mechanics and all this other stuff and they would come up with a new name. The SS would provide them new identification documents. And you know, I mean, they weren't as well known as some of the other Nazi leaders. And it's not like now where you can just go to their Facebook page and see what they look like. Right. So figuring out who these people were was really difficult. But so many of them kept their wedding rings and in their wedding rings it would say their name and their wives names. So several Nazis were actually captured because their wedding rings identified them. And you're right, I mean jewelry just tends to be one of those things that could be really identifying. And if you're trying to cover up someone's identity, taking their identifying jewelry is something you would think you would do. But that didn't happen here. And in fact it just wasn't taken. It was taken and placed on one of these rocks next to her body. And so far a lot of the things we've talked about are not that unusual. Taking off the boot, taking off sock, maybe it got wet, maybe, you know, you wanted to like massage your foot or something. Like there are reasons you would do something like that. Putting the flasks on one rock and the liquor on another rock and leaning your umbrella up against a stone, taking off your scarf, taking off your sweater. These are not necessarily weird things to do. Just if you're stopping on a hike, taking off your earrings in your ring is weird. That is a strange thing to do and not something I think most people would do in this circumstance.
- [49:46]
B
Right. And also indicates that you're going to sit there a bit longer than just a quick water break. Like maybe if you were sitting down to paint or write in a journal or have a conversation with someone. I don't know why you take your jewelry off, but it just indicates to me that you're going to be there a little bit longer than a quick pit stop to drink. You know, I'm thinking about the last hike I went on. It was a really strenuous hike and I was like, let's just stop right here taking the view because I needed to catch my breath, but like it was to lean against the post, take a swig of water and then I kept going. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way.
- [50:43]
A
Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations Guys, it's a new year and that means a lot of us are starting new workouts. And there is something about a new workout set that makes you feel unstoppable. The problem? Buying new gear all the time isn't realistic. But when I joined Fabletics as a VIP that changed. New VIPs unlock insane savings on their first outfits, so getting that fresh set boost is suddenly totally doable. When I signed up as a new VIP with Fabletics, I got 80% off everything. 80% off. I thought it was going to be one of those too good to be true things. But no, this is real and honestly, the quality surprise me. It'll surprise you too. Fabletics pieces feel like the kind of high end activewear you'd easily pay a couple hundred dollars for, but you get that same premium fit and durability for a tiny fraction of the price. At that point, the VIP membership basically.
- [51:50]
B
Pays for itself and the fit dialed in. No waistbands, creeping down, joggers that actually keep their shape, jackets that are warm without being bulky. Everything feels soft, breathable, flexible and built for whatever your day looks like. Workouts, travel, days, getting back into your routine, or those new year fresh start mornings when you just need something that helps you feel put together. Plus, there's something reassuring about knowing that Fabletics isn't just an online brand floating in the void. They've got over 2 million VIP members and more than 100 retail stores. It feels like joining a community people genuinely count on. I ordered myself like five new outfits because I am going to get in shape, but they're going to be perfect for these chilly morning workouts and I'm staying warm but not overheating. Fabletics already has Incredible deals. And we've got an exclusive offer just for our listeners. Get 80% off everything when you sign up as a VIP. Just head to Fabletics.com prosecutors take a quick style quiz and be sure to select prosecutors when prompted to unlock your 80% off. That's fabletics.com prosecutors. So under the body's bottom remained of what seems to have been like a fur hat. Maybe it was dark brown and the smell from that hat indicated that it contained remains of petroleum or something similar. Closer to the feet, charred remains of a matchbox. At the same place, burnt remains of bread crackers or something similar. Under the knees and thighs of the body, small amounts of a paper like material also charred. As no item that could fit together with the before mentioned plastic lid was found so far, we initiated work to clear the stone scree under where the body had been. At the bottom of the scree, approximately one meter under the body, we made two findings of a plastic like material, yellow and gray, blue. It had trickled down through the scree partly on the side of the stones, partly on the bottom of the scree. We also found ample amounts of a yellowish fat like material. The examination at the bottom of the scree revealed heavily soot and smoke blackened stones which indicates that fire must have been present here at the bottom at 1 meter's depth. That's, I mean a lot of information there. Okay, so you start out with this hat that's under the bottom fur hat. It is November in Norway. The interesting thing of course is that it smells to have probably some sort of accelerant or something that smells like an accelerant, that chemical smell.
- [54:36]
A
And this is the only indication of an accelerant. So they didn't find any other indication of an accelerate. This was the only thing that even smelled like an accelerated. It was never tested to confirm there was an accelerator. And I don't know if they could in the 70s, I mean maybe they could now if they still had the fur hat. But a lot of this stuff as you can imagine, as always happens in these cases has been lost. In fact, I think all of it has been lost. I could be wrong about that. So. But they didn't find anything else. Now it's interesting because remember where the fire was at its most intense was down the lower half of her body. And that's where you're finding this hat with the petroleum. That's where you're finding the remains of a matchbook, you know, or matchbox, which you can obviously now we have something that could have started the fire. Then you have this weird, like, food almost that's been all burnt up, but then paper as well. Underneath her knees and her thighs, it's almost like she was sitting with, like, her hat in front of her. Maybe she was eating something. Like, maybe it was wrapped up in paper. She was gonna eat something. I. I don't know. But do you find this yellowish fat, like, material, which literally could just be.
- [55:49]
B
Fat, like, from her food, whatever she was eating, maybe butter. Maybe it was. Oh, I thought it was in the plastic.
- [55:56]
A
It could be either. Well, it's in the scree, so. So when they sort of dig down, they go down about a meter, which is, you know, three feet.
- [56:06]
B
Well, I thought it was at the bottom of the scree in a cup, but it was just in the scree.
- [56:11]
A
Right, because they were trying to figure out what this plastic, like, material was. Right. They couldn't figure out what that went with. So they thought, well, maybe it's down there. So we're going to dig down there to see if we can find it. And this is what they found. I mean, part of this just goes with the fact the fire was more intense on the bottom side of her body. So you have deeper soot, you know, smoke, blackened stones. You have this fat, like, material, which I guess it could have been the food. It could have been.
- [56:37]
B
Not if it was ample, though, from her. I thought. I thought, I thought it was in a cup. But the fact that it was just on the rocks and it's ample amount, you're probably right. It probably came from her.
- [56:48]
A
Probably. So I don't know. I don't know what to make of that. But, hey, we're putting this out there for you guys. Y' all are gonna solve this case. Okay? Most strangely of all. Okay, so so far, this is weird, right? There are weird things about this, but now we start getting into the very strange stuff, and there's gonna be more of this kind of thing. So the manufacturing labels on all her clothes had been meticulously cut off from the parts of the clothing which had not been destroyed by flames. Among her items, all distinctive marks had been erased. Even the labels on the bottom of the plastic bottles had been scraped off. So essentially, anything that identified the clothing, where it would have came from, her items, where they would have come from, even the plastic bottles, where they would have come from somebody, she or somebody else took the time to cut off all those labels, to scratch off things that couldn't be removed. So if it was, like, engraved in there or stamped on there, scraped all that off so that you end up with all these items that she owned that have no labels. They don't tell you where they're manufactured. And remember, this is the 70s. So these labels, you know, now you get a shirt from Walmart, it says made in China. Whoop de do. Not that helpful, right? But at the time in 1970, probably every label told a story, told a real story about where you'd been, where you shopped, the kind of money you had. I mean, there's. There's probably a lot one could gain from the labels. And all of that had been removed.
- [58:26]
B
And so if it were what had been left over after the flames, it seems that whoever. If someone did this and it wasn't her before the death, waited until the flames had ceased to see what was still there in order to do it. Because it would seem strange to go through all of that and cut off all the tags while it was still on her, if she were alive.
- [58:49]
A
And can we just say this is a strange fire if you're gonna set it right now. It could have been sort of a spontaneous thing, like you're panicking and you're doing it. But it almost has to be that because you didn't really plan for it, because it's a very brief fire. It doesn't.
- [59:08]
B
It.
- [59:08]
A
It does a little bit of damage to the body, but it certainly doesn't come anywhere near destroying the body. It doesn't even destroy all the clothes. Like you would think, well, let's say you went up there to murder her and to burn the body. Like that was your plan and you'd taken, like, gasoline up there or whatever. Well, you think you would make sure you just burn all the clothes. Like, you wouldn't take the time to, like, cut out all the labels and scratch off. You would just burn it all. Like, if something hadn't burned, you'd burn that too, right? But this fire is so brief and only intense in certain places that it doesn't actually do that work. Like, you would have to, if you had not cut them off beforehand. You would have to sit around, wait for the fire to go out, check everything that hadn't been burned, and cut everything off, but then not take her jewelry with you.
- [60:00]
B
So from a different perspective, I have a lot of kids, and my kids sometimes all of a sudden decide every tag on their clothes is going to drive them crazy. And I have to sit there with scissors and cut out the tags of every single one of their clothes, no matter how small and no matter where they're Located. So, like, currently my 2 year old, no tags on any of her clothes. I have no idea what size clothes they are. And it's frustrating because I'm like, what, what is this? This is the front or the back. And I cut it very close to the collar or the cuff because any amount that sticks out bothers her. So it's like a sensory thing. So that could be a situation where especially if she's taking off earrings and a ring, maybe she's very sensitive. I say I never take off my wedding ring. I do. Especially honestly when I'm typing. And they bug me because it like rubs against my hand or my hands swell because I'm typing so much. I do take them off when it's bugging me. So maybe her taking off her earrings and her ring go along with the fact that maybe she hates tags and she cuts off all her tags and all her pieces of clothing doesn't exactly explain the scratching off the other labels.
- [61:07]
A
It doesn't explain at all.
- [61:08]
B
As a matter of fact, it doesn't explain it at all. The tags. I may be able to understand her doing it as just a matter of course in general. And since we don't know her, we don't know if the rest of her clothes also follow this. Now, the scratching off at the bottle, I can't. I don't know how that would be something that someone regularly does, just as a matter of course, and I will.
- [61:26]
A
Say this here early on in this case, I think that's a very viable theory that she just doesn't like tags and she gets tags off. That's not what it is. And we're gonna see that because it's not gonna be the last time we see her effort or someone's effort to conceal her identity. And, you know, the first hint is the fact that also everything is scratched off. But we're gonna see even more of this as we go. So it probably is an effort to conceal identity, not an effort at comfort. Though I thought the same thing. I often hate tags as well. So when the first police stumble upon this scene, they're thinking kind of what I was saying about the hairspray, like maybe this is some weird accident. Like she set a fire and then she kind of fell into the fire, or maybe she had thrown herself backwards for some other reason, like she saw a bee or something and she fell backwards and she ends up in this fire because remember, she's laying on her back when they find her, right? So there's no. I don't want to get Too graphic. But you can imagine someone catching on fire the things they might do, right? I mean, you've seen movies or really horrific videos from wars and stuff, but you can imagine things people might do, whether it's running or throwing themselves on the ground or whatever. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. There's just no indication that she ever moved beyond her final position. So this is why the police are trying to figure out, like, how is it that you would end up on your back on fire in a situation like this? Now, obviously, one possibility is there was no fire that she fell into, number one, no evidence of a fire that she could have fallen into. So the possibility is she was already dead and it had just been her body that had been on fire, that someone had lit that fire in a clumsy attempt to destroy evidence. Even if it was an incredibly clumsy attempt that really failed because it really was her body that was the source of the fire and any fire on the ground. And as they looked more at this, they realized this was true. It wasn't that the fire lit her on fire. It was she lit the other fires that they found on the ground. So the fire started on her, not the other way around. Or possibly when maybe she had intentionally burned some of her items. Because once again, they're finding these things like the paper and the other stuff that's all burnt up that they're having difficulty explaining. So one theory some people had was maybe she's burning. She's not starting a fire, she's, like, building a fire. But maybe she's burning something that's paper in front of her, and somehow there's this flame up, it catches her on fire, she falls backwards and she dies. But as we're going to see, things are going to develop that add a wrinkle to even that theory. We packed a lot of information into this episode. I realize we've only been going for an hour, but we've packed a ton of information. This episode. Literally, that report on her body and how she was found and how her stuff was found is the kind of thing you could spend weeks pouring over and trying to figure out. And people have spent 50 years doing just that. But we are going to learn so many more things about this woman and how she died that are going to raise new questions that are going to confuse you. This is one of those cases where the more information you get, the more confused you get. You probably have the clearest idea in this case that you're going to have right now. The more we talk about it and the more episodes we have, the weirder this is going to get. So just buckle up. This is a wild ride. If you know this case, you know it's a wild ride. And it's also going to be sort of a ride through history. This is a case that really ties into a lot of the things that were going on in Europe, both at the time during the World wars and the continent as a whole. And it's going to be an adventure. This is a great case. I love this case. This is one of those. It's up there with the Dyatlov Pass incident. If you love that case, you're going to love this one as well. Alice, do you have time for a question?
- [65:48]
B
Let's do it.
- [65:49]
A
Okay. Very excited to do this. I've been looking forward to doing this. I've been sick for like two weeks and we hadn't been able to do it.
- [65:55]
B
Really, really have been sick for two weeks.
- [65:57]
A
I've had to wait. But if you, like me, find yourself obsessed with this case. Remember Death and Ice Valley? Great. It's a BBC. So you have one British person. Everybody loves to have a British person on their podcast. They just have that soothing voice. But you also have someone who's a Norwegian and also has a beautiful voice, speaks the beautiful Norwegian accent, and sort of has a real connection this area. They talked to a ton of people who were still alive, who were around at the time, who met this woman, who interacted with her. It's really fascinating and I recommend everybody should check that out. Let's see. We've answered this question so many times, but I'll go ahead and ask it again because we answered so many times.
- [66:37]
B
And we'll change it up a little.
- [66:38]
A
Yeah, so this is from eaw8, and they want to know, have either of you done criminal law on the defense side? If not, do you think you could do it? I know you're obviously capable of it. Would you be willing to? And this just comes up all the time. And we've answered this question before and there's discussion on the gallery about it and everything else. As I have said, I think I'd be a very good defense attorney. I just. I don't know. I don't know if I could really do it. And I appreciate the people who do. Like one person said, we have, like a black and white view of this and we think prosecutors are great and defense attorneys are evil. Never said that. Never said defense attorneys are evil. What I have said is I think it takes a special person to be a defense Attorney. Like, I wouldn't want to be a proctologist. It takes this special person to be a proctologist. Right. Or like a podiatrist. I don't really want to deal with people's feet. Or like a dentist. I wouldn't want to do that either. I want to stick my hand in people's mouths all day. I mean, that would. I just don't know that I could do that. Right. Doesn't mean any of those people are bad, or we don't need them, or they aren't important. It just means I don't know that I would want to do it. And I really appreciate the people who go into that work. And I feel like defense attorneys are kind of like that. Like, are they necessary? Absolutely. Are they really important? Yes. Would I want one if I was charged with something? Yes. I want the best, sleaziest one possible. If I'm charged with something, whoever's gonna get me off, that's what I want. But I don't know that I could do it, particularly not in the run of the mill case. Right. Like the cases that we prosecuted. I could take those. Right. Like, I mean, whatever. I can defend those cases. But where it would get really hard for me are cases where the criminal is really bad and did really horrible things to innocent people. And it would be very hard for me to walk in and see, like, the parents of a 12 year old who'd been murdered and think, I'm gonna do everything I can to get this guy off today. Like, that would be very difficult for me. And I don't think I could do it. So that's why I just. I don't know that I could be a defense attorney.
- [68:36]
B
Yeah, I've done defense side work, but never for the types of clients that Brett just described. And I would say that I can't do it. My heart's not in it. Someone said I was in a work meeting today. Someone was like, after I talked about something I did, they were like, wow, you're really passionate about that. I don't know that I'm really passionate about it. I think I am just naturally an excited person, but I do have to be excited about what I'm doing. And that doesn't excite me to, like, get up and do the daily fight that is exhausting of litigation. That would not. While I could do it substantively, I probably couldn't long term because I would burn out very quickly. So I have a lot of respect for criminal defense attorneys who can do that. And it is from my understanding of friends who do do that work, incredibly exhausting and taxing.
- [69:22]
A
And I'll say this. If you spend enough time around defense attorneys, you will come to the conclusion they are delusional. And I think we.
- [69:30]
B
We ask this question all the time. We literally look at each other all the time, and we're like, do you think he really believes what he just wrote? Do you think he really believes what he just argued? Because I couldn't bring myself to say that.
- [69:40]
A
Like, I think Baldwin and Rosie truly believe that Richard Allen didn't do it. I don't know if they believe the Odinism thing, but I think they truly believe he didn't do it. Like, and if you talk to them, I think you would be like, what world do you live in? And if you've talked to defense attorneys about cases, like famous cases they've had, where someone is clearly obviously guilty of doing a really horrific thing, they come off as if they're like, no, you know, if. If you'd seen all the evidence, like, you wouldn't be so sure, right? And you're like, really? You know, like, do I think Johnnie Cochran thought OJ Was innocent? Probably not. Probably not. But maybe. I mean, who knows? If you talk to the man, maybe that's the place you'd come to. And so I think that is one way they deal with it. I think some of them are just straight delusional. They just convince themselves that their client is innocent regardless of the evidence. And so when you see them defending that client, you see this with Mark Garagos, right? When he talks about Scott Peterson or he talks about the Menendez brothers or whatever, like Pooty Poot. When Pooty Poot talks about Murdoch, he seems like he really thinks he's innocent. Right. The same thing with the other guy.
- [70:58]
B
I think there has to be a level of suspension of belief. And then at the core of it, even if you kind of were like, they're not innocent, you're like, but it's the man against the everyday man. So it doesn't even really matter. It's not really about the facts anymore. It's about a principle. Yeah.
- [71:14]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [71:14]
B
I can't.
- [71:15]
A
I mean. So, once again, just to reiterate, we think defense attorneys are great. We have a whole legal briefs episode on defense attorneys and how they're great, particularly public and federal defenders. Love those guys, but I don't know that I could do it, and that's fine. Like, you don't have to be willing and ready to do every job I wouldn't want to climb to the top of towers and change the light bulbs on those either. But there's somebody who does that and those people are great. Not for me. Feel the same way about defense attorneys. So that's my answer for the fifth time on this question.
- [71:47]
B
Love it. So good.
- [71:48]
A
All right, well, if you want to ask questions, if you want to ask us whether or not we would want to be defense attorneys, you can do so as well. Just leave a five star review on the prosecutors or prosecutors legal briefs and we will answer your question. Reminder to those of you who leave one star reviews, we don't answer your questions if you leave a one star review. So you can leave the one star review and be snarky, but we're not going to answer your question. So that's just the way it is. If you want to recommend a case, shoot us an email@protizens podmail.com that is always the best way. But there are times when people send me messages other places where I put it on the list. But it always goes on the list if you email us. So email us if you just want to follow us or whatever on social media at Prosecutors Pod. For all your social media, join the gallery, which is our fan run fan established page on Facebook. Lots of fun stuff going on there. If you want to watch us record these episodes early, join patreon for only $3. If you don't care about watching us record them, but you would like to get them early and ad free, same deal, patreon for only $3. All right, Alice, is there anything I missed? Anything you want to add before we sign off?
- [73:01]
B
No, but this mystery is only going to boggle your mind more and more. So far we just read kind of an autopsy, except not autopsy, a crime scene report and that's it. And there's already so many questions and it will get so much more just mind boggling. So come back for more.
- [73:17]
A
Yes, do that and we will have more for you next week. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice and we are the prosecutor.
- [73:50]
B
These are heavy days, man.
- [73:52]
A
I know.
- [73:53]
B
They really are heavy days.
- [73:54]
A
I know they are. But you know. Yeah, you do what you do, so.
- [74:02]
B
Yep.
- [74:03]
A
All right, guys, well, next time we'll try and do something a little bit more enjoyable like the next.
- [74:10]
B
Oh, God, I'm just kidding.
- [74:12]
A
But you know, there was a Lifetime movie. We could review it. We could watch the movie and review it. Please don't make me pull my eyes out with chopsticks then watch the Karen Reed Lifetime. Sam.
- [75:25]
B
I didn't know. I. Lifetime. You've. You've hit me where it hurts. Because you know how much I love you, Lifetime. But I gotta boycott this one.
- [75:35]
A
Seriously.
- [75:36]
B
All right, we're gonna talk about it tomorrow.
- [75:38]
A
Yeah, exactly. Tomorrow in the prosecutors. All right, guys, we'll be back soon.
- [76:27]
B
Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. This is the mindset. Free. This is the mantra.
- [76:34]
A
Free.
- [76:35]
B
This is the. With movies like Joe dirt, pixels and 51st date. This is awesome. And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the Fairly Odd Parents and Ghosts. Pluto TV is always free.
- [76:50]
A
Huzzah. Pluto TV.
- [76:53]
B
Stream now, pay. Never.
- [76:54]
A
You're welcome.