Alice (3:13)

I think it's Belgian. Is that like they don't speak Belgian? It's the country of Belgium. And they're Belgians.

Brett (3:20)

And they're Belgians, but they don't speak Belgian.

Alice (3:23)

They do have a language, but it's not language, but it's not Belgium. So they speak Dutch, French, and German. So you. You got it right. But they don't speak Belgium. That is not a thing.

Brett (3:36)

Belgian.

Alice (3:37)

They don't speak Belgian.

Brett (3:39)

Belgium, but I do. That word means wonderful in some language. I have it down as Belgian. I don't know why I have it down as Belgian, but there you go. Probably not French. It's definitely their Dutch or German. Right? I think we can be sure about that.

Alice (3:55)

I think I agree.

Brett (3:57)

Okay.

Alice (3:57)

I agree with that.

Brett (3:58)

There you go. We've solved one issue today.

Alice (3:59)

Can I tell one the reason those of you watching, I'm not looking at Mothman. To my right. I got doors, Brett. I got doors to my office, but guess what?

Brett (4:10)

They don't close.

Alice (4:11)

Ask me if they're installed right now.

Brett (4:13)

Are they installed right now?

Alice (4:14)

They're not installed. Why? Why, Alice, are they not installed?

Brett (4:17)

Why, Alice, are they not installed?

Alice (4:20)

Because after waiting for more than two months, they arrived. And the man who was going to install them, such a nice man. Such a nice man. Not his fault. He walks in, he's like, I'm so sorry. You've been waiting for so long. I'm here to install them. I'm like, please, by all means, go for it. And he starts installing, and he comes over and he's like, I'm so sorry. I cannot install them. And I'm like, why can you not install these doors? I've waited for two months for. And he said, they sent me the wrong door. And I said, singular door. Cause there's two doors, correct? One of them is four inches too short. And I was like. So, like, did you leave the other door at the shop, or did they just make the wrong door? And he's like, I'm gonna try to figure that out. So he called the door maker. They made one door correctly. The other door looks like the other door, but it's four inches too short. So whoever measured did not measure twice. Cut once. They just didn't measure, and they cut. And now I have to wait who knows how long for doors. So I'm looking over my shoulder because I'm pretty sure I have an interloper up there, but I'm not going to do anything about it. And when I have doors.

Brett (5:26)

Doors, you just slam it in his face anyways, right?

Alice (5:30)

If we have woodworking listeners, please come help me.

Brett (5:33)

There you go. You know, I wish. I realize this is a on the side, but that's what you come here for. I wish I was handy in some way.

Alice (5:41)

You know, same.

Brett (5:43)

I couldn't do anything with your doors.

Alice (5:44)

I'm sorry. This is what's gonna happen. I know you're single parenting Tonight. And, you know, you should probably get back to your children, but I'll tell one more story of how unhandy I am, and I feel like you would appreciate it. I called the plumber because I was like, can't get this thing to drain the kitchen drain, and I can't get the disposal to work. You know, so I've tried everything I can. Did the drain node, did the plunger, all the things. I'm pretty handy. Not, you know, let's get the plumber. So the plumber trudges out here with my doorless house, and he's like, perhaps 45 seconds later, okay, you're good to go, ma'. Am. And I was like, excuse me.

Brett (6:19)

That'll be $500.

Alice (6:21)

It was. But also, he literally just jiggled the disposal, and it unlodged whatever it was with his hands. No plumbing tools. And it works now after a house call.

Brett (6:33)

It's really the expertise that you're paying for, not the labor or the tools. It's the expertise. Anyway, so. Those are wonderful stories, Alice, and I'm sure all the people who came here for true crime love those stories. But we do have a mystery we're trying to solve, other than why your doors are four inches too short.

Alice (6:52)

Door.

Brett (6:53)

Door. Did he install the other door?

Alice (6:56)

Well, he was about to, and I said, look, if the right things are going, don't install it, because what if he comes back and it's a different design? Like, I don't want to then have to, like, uninstall the door. Yeah, I was just like, just. Just leave. Come back later.

Brett (7:09)

Well, I look forward to the conclusion of this story. Whenever your doors show up, they're not here.

Alice (7:15)

You know who else is not here? You know, the Isdale woman.

Brett (7:19)

The Isdale woman is not here either. And I hope you guys enjoyed our first episode, and I think you're already appreciating how mysterious this case is. We have. People are already offering their theories. We've had several spontaneous combustion theories that she was walking around up there, she sat down to have a little bite, and all of a sudden, she just spontaneously combusted. And you know what?

Alice (7:40)

That's.

Brett (7:40)

That's not what happened.

Alice (7:41)

But I was gonna say, I think that's a good theory.

Brett (7:44)

That's a great theory. It's not what happened, but we'll continue to discuss it anyway. And we laid out for you basically sort of the finding of her. Of her body, the very strange condition it was in. It was burned partially. These items sort of surrounding her, including Jewelry and papers that had been burned and various things. She's one boot off, one boot on. I can sort of imagine why people would say spontaneous combustion, because it does just seem like suddenly something happened to her and she died and then all of a sudden she was on fire. So that's where we were at. But we're about to learn some more information that is going to make this case even more mysterious.

Alice (8:28)

So of course we know the condition she was found in. These two young girls just kind of running off the beaten path on a beautiful idyllic hike around this lake, accidentally come upon this woman who looks like she froze in place, burned completely in what appears to be a horrifically quick fire, at least at her top half. So on November 30, 1970, the Bergen Police request the help of the National Criminal Investigation Service. And that same day, Professor Olav A. Haugen, the chief forensic pathologist at the Gates Institute in Bergen, performed an autopsy. So Olav made note of her physical characteristics, noting that she was approximately 5ft 5 inches tall and approximately 30 years old. This is actually very helpful because she was burned so badly. Remember, all her hair had burned off and she had like a tiny wisp of a ponytail. You couldn't tell what she looked like by looking at her body that was remained. Now, she had a slim build with broad hips and had never given birth. She had shoulder length brownish black hair, olive skin and brown eyes. She had a small round face with small ears. And her teeth were distinct. They had many repairs, including gold caps on several of her molars. Fourteen of them were partly or completely root filled and there was a gap between the upper front teeth. Before you comment on this, I just, I feel validated as a middle aged woman, oh so old that I love that other than being burned to a crisp, we can still tell that she hasn't given birth because man, does childbirth just wreck your body. So good for you, lady.

Brett (10:09)

There you go. And I'll tell you what, we're going to talk more about her teeth as we go on. I mean there are a lot of things about her that are distinct. 14 teeth that are partly or completely root filled. Basically she had root canals on most of her teeth and then she had these gold caps, her teeth as well. And you know, this is a mystery about who this woman is. And as most of you know, forensic dentistry can tell you a lot about somebody and you really can identify people by their teeth. And we're going to talk more about this as we go on. But yeah, fairly typical woman though. You know, I mean, there's nothing extraordinary about her in a lot of ways. I mean, the fact that she's never given birth means that, you know, there's not some child out there looking for their mother. She's 5 5, which is probably average for women. She's 30 years old, so she's pretty young, according to the doctor. Now, it's interesting, she has brownish black hair, olive skin and brown eyes. What does that tell us? Well, remember, we're in Norway and we're in Norway in the 1970s and at the time, even now, but certainly at the time, Norway was filled with a lot of people who, who didn't have brownish black hair, olive skin and brown eyes. I mean, just think of your sort of typical Norwegian person and, you know, that stereotype was pretty accurate. So this is already telling us this is probably someone who either is a visitor, is a tourist, or if she does live in Norway, she's probably a recent immigrant. She's not someone who has long standing ties to Norway or to the community where she was found. So now her face had been burned severely and was unrecognizable. But aside from her burns, her internal organs had no other issues. So there's no indication she's been strangled. She hasn't been shot, she hasn't been stabbed, she hasn't been beaten. None of those things happen to her. And in fact, we know how she died and it wasn't spontaneous combustion. And in fact it wasn't really that she burned to death, though that was part of this. And the fact that it's part of it is also interesting. What she died from was phenomenal and carbon monoxide poisoning. So what is phenome? Phenimal is a brand name for phenobarbital, which is a barbiturate. It's a medication, it's used as a sedative, is a hypnotic, which I think they call it a hypnotic. But that just helps you sleep, right? It doesn't actually hypnotize, I think.

Alice (12:48)

That's right. It sedates you. See that it sedates you.

Brett (12:51)

Right. It can also be an epilepsy treatment. It can help with seizures and various other things. It does come with some risks and one of those risks is it is something that you can overdose on. And in fact it's a fairly popular thing for people who are seeking to end their own life. And not only did she die from this, but analysis of her blood showed that she consumed at least 40 to 50 of these sleeping pills of these phenomels, 40 to 50. So a lot of drugs. She had consumed a large number of these pills. So a couple of things to note there. Number one, doesn't sound accidental. It's not like she took two and had some ridiculous reaction to it. Other thing, remember, she was drinking. Now, we don't get from this autopsy what her blood alcohol level was. If it's out there, I haven't seen it. Seems like sort of a shortcoming of this autopsy. But in any event, we don't get that. But we know that phenobarbital, when combined with alcohol, is even more dangerous. And that when people are trying to kill themselves, they often. That's exactly what they do. They take it with alcohol. Now, what's interesting about this, we talked about this a little bit before. Like, there were things about her death that almost made you think she was dead when the fire was started. If you listen back to our last episode, we talked about some of those things. The fact that she didn't move around. There was no thrashing around. She sort of was just where she was when she caught on fire. There was no indication of any reaction to that. And we thought that was strange. And it was the kind of thing that would make you think maybe she was already dead. But we know she wasn't already dead when the fire started because she didn't just die of phenomenal. She also had carbon monoxide poisoning, which means she had these 40 to 50 sleeping pills in her system, including some pills that were still in her stomach undigested. And she was alive enough when the fire started to breathe in the carbon monoxide from the fire and for it to enter into her blood at a level that when her blood was tested, you found carbon monoxide poisoning. Now, in addition to this, the autopsy also mentioned a few things about those items that were around her body. And one that was interesting that wasn't. That goes along with something we talked about earlier about her clothes and the clothes that were left. They had all the tags removed and we wondered, do they just bother her? And so she wanted to remove them. Was this some sort of attempt to hide her identity? Well, there was also a silver spoon found near her body that had the monogram on it filed off. So if y' all have ever seen the fancy silver spoons, they oftentimes on the handle will have a monogram that might be some initials as whoever owns it. Well, those initials were filed off. So whoever did this went not only to the extent of removing the labels from the clothes, but filed off the monogram from this spoon.

Alice (16:08)

That's interesting because, like, if this is, say, a drifter or someone who didn't have a lot of means, they probably wouldn't have a monogrammed silver spoon, much less a silver spoon. So it's not just a silver spoon. Someone took the time, it was probably a gift at some point to give to her that she still had it.

Brett (16:25)

With her, or a. Some sort of strange heirloom. Like have you ever seen. Which of course you haven't seen.

Alice (16:31)

Which of course I haven't. What are you talking about?

Brett (16:33)

Okay, which is a great movie if you've ever seen it. But it's set in the new world colonial period. Think like Salem, right after the founding of sort of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. And these people from England, they have a falling out with the people at the colony, and so they decide to strike out on their own. And they don't have a lot, but one thing they have is the wife has one silver cup that belonged to her family that she brought with her from England. I mean, now, you know, you think about what you would inherit from your family if they were to pass away. And it's like 10 storage rooms full of junk, right? But back then, particularly think about this. If she was born in 1940, World War II, and all that other stuff might have had very few items that were connected to who she was and her family. And this one silver spoon could have been something like that.

Alice (17:27)

And I was thinking, I was like, huh, does this mean that. Was it like a baby spoon or was it like a. Usually you would get a monogram spoon when you get married. Not that she could be 30 years old and not have had a children and not been married. But it kind of puts into things like, if it wasn't hers, was it a family heirloom? If it was hers, was she married? Then why keep the one spoon versus a set 12 spoons? And this is really interesting because I actually, for our wedding, we got my husband's grandparents who, like, are over 100 years old, monogrammed silver spoons that they got for their wedding 85 years ago. So they are like contemporaries, right? And it's exactly that. There is a monogram on this silver spoon and there's a set of 12 of them. And that is what was passed on to us on our wedding day. And so kind of thinking about how the spoon came about is very interesting because in the 1970s, sure, people still monogrammed silver spoons, but it is something very special that you could see being passed along. And also, like you said, because it's monogrammed. There are specific people who are able to trace back who monogrammed certain things. And so you'll see people say, like, I want. Especially if you find some sort of, like, connected to a funeral or death of a loved one, they want the same monogrammer to do all of the engraving on whatever piece of jewelry everyone has, because there's a distinctness to that monogrammer. So even. Even the fact that it's monogrammed may be traced back to, like, a town or a region. And that monogrammer probably doesn't do a ton. And if they found them, they could probably trace the family. Like, it's not just the fact of what's written, but maybe even who did the monogramming. That may not.

Brett (19:08)

We talked about this a little bit last episode, But Alice is 100% right. I mean, just back then, stuff was just made with more care, like, everything about it. And it would have been easier to trace it than it would be now. I mean, now, as we said last time, the spoon would come from Walmart. It would come from a set of 27 million sets that were made in one factory and Guangzhou and sent over here. And it wouldn't tell you anything. But back then, this probably would tell you a lot. So the police, they're trying to figure out who this lady is. They've got really no leads. They start sending out this information to Interpol, to various police forces across Europe, thinking maybe someone will have a missing person of something that matches this, but they get nothing back.

Alice (19:53)

So as Brett noted in kind of the characteristics of this woman, she probably stood out. She probably wasn't from Norway, just based on her features. And so the police are looking everywhere. They're trying to figure out who this woman is, and they have no leads. They cannot figure out who this woman is. How does an entire woman go missing and no one's reported. Reported them missing? Well, if they're not from there, you can imagine that maybe their friends and family don't know that they're missing. But three days after the discovery of their body, on December 2, 1970, the police found two unclaimed suitcases at the Bergen Railway station that belonged to their victim. They learned that the suitcases were left at the station on November 23, which was six days before the body was discovered.

Brett (20:37)

And before we get into this, I mean, this is. I guess you could probably still do this today, but I don't know that people really do this because traveling is different. And the way we handle stuff is different, but back in the day, you know, and probably still in Europe to a certain point, because they do have the whole railway culture and everything. But anyways, you can take some bags and check them in at the railway station, pay some money and leave them there. Right. And we talked about before when I did my trip around the world. Well, the first part of that trip was in Southeast Asia and it was very hot. Remember, I was worried about malaria and stuff. And then we went like to the ice Festival in Harbin, China, and It was negative 40 degrees. It was like the coldest I'd ever been. Right. So we had all the clothes you could imagine and basically did something similar to this. We sort of checked our bags in one place with all our cold weather clothes, did all the hot weather stuff, then actually shipped all the hot weather stuff back and then just kept the rest of it with us. So this is not that unusual that you would check in a couple bags. What is unusual is the fact that, number one, she did it six days before her body was discovered. And remember, I mean, that very well could have been the day she died. And obviously that they are unclaimed. And you just imagine this is like discovering a treasure chest. Right. If you're the police. I mean, this is. Oh, man. We're trying to figure out who this woman was. We got nothing really from her body and what she had on her. This is going to be it. This is going to tell us two, four full suitcases of information.

Alice (22:06)

So much information. This is a treasure trove of information, like you said. I will say, if you find my bag, you'll immediately know who I am. There's probably actually prosecutors pod swag in there. You'll be like, wow, it's either a listener or one of our hosts. You guys remember my TSA story where I went through and basically gave away all my swag to TSA security because they asked for it. Totally cool. It was not a bribe. I got nothing for it in exchange. But they're excited. And look, it is. It's completely filled to the brim with stuff, but it doesn't exactly give us more answers. So the first suitcase was black and contained the following. There's a lot of stuff. We're going to read through them because, look, when you have a mystery like this, every piece of evidence matters. Dark brown leather sports shoes with branding Stormrand and Nature for Mark. Salamander imprinted on the sole. High boots that were beige on Ziploc was the word eclair. So French plastic bag marked oskar Rottweitz Skoltverkes Ngante 18 Stavanger. That was not pronounced correctly, but I did my best.

Brett (23:14)

You nailed Stavanger though. I mean that is actually how you pronounce that place.

Alice (23:18)

None of the other stuff was right, but it contained leather walking shoes and placed within the gold plastic bag was marked Nicole Shoes. Nicole baby Roma via Barberini 30 indoor shoes, navy blue leather. A dressing gown. It was long turquoise and the markings were cut off much like the other clothes found on her short wool dress. Flower pattern factory marks, partly cut off except for 44N which I think is the size. A short skirt, brown with flower pattern, no marking. A petticoat without markings. Five sweaters and blouses with no markings. Underwear, two bras, three pants. Four nylon stockings. Three pairs of women gloves, one of them beige imitated snakeskin with the marking Gantneret Paris bonnet in fur, black. One pair of sunglasses which were large and oval and it did contain a partial fingerprint. One pair of glasses, dark brown frame with non prescription lenses. A clothes brush marking made in Germany. A clothes bag containing a cleaning cloth for shoes and a small brush for leather, also with no markings. So a ton of stuff. All the markings intentionally removed.

Brett (24:42)

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Alice (25:47)

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Brett (28:11)

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Alice (32:06)

Rest in her suitcase and very interesting, the rest of what we've read so far, I think I would expect of a traveler. Clothes, different types of shoes, interesting to carry around, like a set of silver spoons, maybe one if you're just traveling for a bit. But this may indicate to me that she maybe doesn't have a home. She's carrying with her the things that matter to her.

Brett (32:27)

What do you make of the fact that she had this pair of glasses with non prescription lenses? Does that say anything to you?

Alice (32:33)

Oh, you know what I had read that dark brown frame, as in they were sunglasses, which I didn't find weird, but that they're not. It suggests to me, this is based on other information we're going to know later, that she may like to be a little bit of an international woman of mystery to change her appearance with glasses so alone, eh? Unlike today when we have non prescription glasses for like blue light, there really wasn't a reason to wear it unless you were in a play or changing your appearance for whatever reason. I don't believe in the 70s it was as common as it is now. There are a lot of fashion glasses that are non prescription, purely for fashion. Like you don't wear them every day, you just wear them with your outfit. And there's different color frames. I don't do that, but I know people who do. I don't think that was all in vogue there. So that just suggests to me maybe that she puts on different looks.

Brett (33:22)

Could be. She also had a purse, dark blue, A ballpoint pen. It was a pilot S, it was gray. That's probably a little break. The whole case. Five sanitary pads with no markings. Small cylinder with lid marking hairballed shampoo. Small glass bottle marking Brigand on glass. Jacques Estarel Paris perfume on lid. A round mirror. An envelope with money hidden in the suitcases. Construction. Now, let me tell you how much it was in a second. But it's kind of interesting, right? You know, hidden sort of in the suitcase. Now, I can imagine you do that because you don't want someone to steal your money. If someone goes through your suitcase while it's in storage, you keep it sort of hidden in there so they can't get to it. I don't know. But okay, so she's in Norway. She had five 100 German mark notes and five and 93 cents of Norwegian kroner in coins. So she had a lot of German money and then, you know, a little bit of Norwegian money. She had a green plastic coin purse marked as Banken that's contained the Norwegian coins, which almost sounds like what you get from the bank. That green little container. Yeah.

Alice (34:46)

And I mean, I assume banken at the end of that is for banks.

Brett (34:50)

For the bank, yeah. Unmarked plastic bag containing a white cylindrical double paper bag. Parts of the bag cut off, possibly removing markings with a clay like substance later to be confirmed as normal pottery clay. Why would you have pottery clay in a bag with the markings cut off?

Alice (35:09)

Have no idea. Unless I don't think you would do this. Obviously, I'm tipping my hand at, like, what conspiracy theory I'm going with now. But, like, can you use clay to like, mold a new nose?

Brett (35:21)

Like a Mission Impossible style?

Alice (35:23)

Yeah. Right. But I don't think you do it with clay. I don't know. That's why I only thought because I don't think she's like doing podcast battery while waiting at the train station. Because you kind of need a potting wheel and a oven to fire your kiln or whatever. So just to.

Brett (35:38)

Just to continue with the, you know, maybe she molds a face and then like, creates the, like, mask on the mold and then takes the mask off the mold and puts it on her face. I don't know. I don't know. Somebody suggested maybe she's molding a key. You take the key, press it into the mold, and then you have the key and you can get the key made somewhere.

Alice (35:57)

Maybe.

Brett (35:58)

Possibility. I mean, who knows? The next one is also really interesting, which I have a theory going along. What you're just talking about a steel laboratory knife found in a plastic sheath marked Escalat together with five extra knife blades. So, you know, one thing you could use a knife like that for would be to alter an identification. Right? Like, you take the knife, you can cut the plastic off and change it, put the plastic back on, that kind of thing. I don't know why you would need a steel laboratory knife. So not like a folding knife or anything like that, but just like a scalpel. Scalp.

Alice (36:37)

I mean, I think what a school up is like a scalpel, right? So with extra blades that you use, but everything has had markings removed, including silver. So you need something to be able to do that type of work. And if you do it all the time, the blade will get dull.

Brett (36:53)

So she had a plastic bag with brown crystallized sugar.

Alice (36:59)

So like, is that different than the sugar you get at the store? Like, I don't just really like brown sugar. Does she just really like sugar in her tea?

Brett (37:06)

What's brown sugar?

Alice (37:07)

Does she like brown sugar in her tea?

Brett (37:09)

You know, brown sugar is interesting because if I don't think I'm making this up. Brown sugar is white cane sugar mixed with molasses.

Alice (37:17)

Correct. It's like boiled together sort of thing.

Brett (37:21)

Yeah. And I don't know. You know, one thing I'm curious about, and maybe people overseas can tell us, was that commonly available in Europe at the time? Would brown sugar have been something you would get in Europe or was that more of a novelty?

Alice (37:39)

Well, I'm wondering if she's this international traveler and she picked up. She liked the flavor of brown sugar in her tea instead of just typical white sugar. So she carried around with her.

Brett (37:49)

Maybe she had a map, map over South Scandinavia. So it's like one of these, like tourist books, right? Map over South Scandinavia. You've probably seen those. And she had several of these actually. She had map over Norway. And scribbled on the map was 16, 6. Now probably, and I don't know this for certain, but. But you know, in the United States we write our dates, the month, the day, the year. Right. But in Europe they tend to do. Which kind of makes more sense, the day, the month, the year. Right. So this could be like June 16, 16, 6. Could be June 16. I mean, I don't know. I could be maping, making that up. There was another map over Norway. And on that map it also said 16 over 6. And it had a in pencil written Gylo. 794 meters. Used to set 999 meters. Hogestahl. 998 meters. Finse 1222 meters. Miradol, 867 meters.

Alice (38:57)

Does that means nothing to me except are those locations and distances?

Brett (39:01)

I don't know. And once again, like, I mean it could be mount. Not mountains, but hills in there, how tall they are. So this mystery is one of those where I'm very interested. If you're someone living in Europe or living in Norway, you may have a lot of insight on this stuff that we just don't have. So if any of this means anything to you, I would be interested to know. Then another map over Norway. And on that map in ballpoint pen, 16 6. So the 16 6, she's got three different maps in Norway. Different things are written on each map. But 166 is written on every one of these maps. So she had parts of a timetable, 1970-1971 for the Norwegian Coastal Express scribbled on that with ballpoint pen KR183 and then Roman numeral 2. KR256, Roman numeral 1. And the police believed that this was sort of meant a trip from Bergen, which is where she was found, to Trondheim and with a cabin. I don't know. I don't know if that's kroner 183. So like that's how many kroner it cost to go in second class, for instance. And then the way back 256 for first class is a possibility. That's what the police thought it meant. I don't know. Then there was another Norwegian train table also for 1970 to 1971. There was a large notepad. This notepad's really important. It was with white unlined paper and one page contained letters and numbers that the police believed was a code and that after giving to some code breakers, they would be able to figure out what most of it meant. And we'll talk about that later. There was also a small notebook. It was blank, but inserted in the notebook was a photo of Madonna with child. This could be significant only because it might tell us that she's Catholic. Sort of a guess. I mean, maybe she just liked the Madonna with child or that it was.

Alice (41:19)

Given to her, or she was at a church and it was handed to her. Because if it's a photo or like a prayer card, I can imagine if she is given it, she is pretending to keep it or whatnot and just stick it into a notebook. Because that notebook wasn't being used. It's not like it was part of a journal or something. So I don't know.

Brett (41:38)

There was also a postcard. It was a Norwegian winter motif and the photograph was taken by an Italian tiny tourist photographer. What's interesting about this is it was later discovered that this same photographer was in the area at the time. So he was traveling through Norway at the same time that the Isdale woman went missing and her body was eventually found and she just so happened to have a postcard with a photograph that he had taken. Could just be. Probably is. It's a complete coincidence, but it is something that people have wondered about whether or not maybe she met this person or something along those lines.

Alice (42:21)

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, these are commercial postcards that she bought somewhere, not postcards that she created herself. Right. And at least if the Italian thing might just be like a really interesting coincidence, only because the Italian photographer clearly took the picture in Norway and she's in Norway. So it's not that uncommon that she would have a postcard from Norway, especially if it's just like the winter motif, which is what she was experiencing at that moment. And then if the Italian guy is always taking pictures of Norway for him to be there. I don't know. I wonder if that's more of a. That's interesting, but may not necessarily point to anything. That was all just the first suitcase. There was a second suitcase. Remember, it was tan in color. The first one was black in color. This one's tan. And it contained the. No fewer things. Spoiler alert. It had money, so coins. 130 Norwegian kroner, 50 Belgian centimes, 6 British pence, 5 and a half Swiss francs. So not a ton of money, but a lot of coins. So it's heavy.

Brett (43:19)

So I just want to note that between the two suitcases, she had German marks, Norwegian kroner, Belgian centimes. Remember, this is before the euro. Six British pants, five and a half Swiss francs. Is that significant?

Alice (43:35)

I think it is a lot of money, but it's not. Well, I was going to say, actually, I think it's really significant because first of all, you usually get that money when you go travel rather than even if you were going to get money from a bank. Now, I don't think you can get them in such small divisions. So the fact that she has so many little ones suggests that she had been using all of them. This is what's left. And it's enough for, like, petty cash to, like, get something to eat or get a ticket or something to go somewhere, short distances. In other words, these are the amounts you would find from someone who is in those places using these things. And that's a lot of places to be because they're not particularly close to each other. And to keep this money around and have them all on you because coins are heavy suggests that she frequents these places continuously. Maybe not just the one time. It's not just one visit, but she may go to Switzerland and Belgium and Norway with some regularity that she doesn't get rid of the Kroners. Think about the last place you went. I went to China and I gave away all my money as I left to my cousin. Because what am I going to do with a bunch of Chinese money? I can't use it here and I'm not going back anytime soon.

Brett (44:40)

I mean, I'm the opposite. I don't have any cousins in China, but I have like a plastic bag that's got money from everywhere I've ever been. And when I'm traveling, I probably do end up with. So imagine she's making one trip around Europe and you know, maybe she's on like a two week vacation. She ends up in Norway. It wouldn't surprise me if like along the way, you know, she spends most of her pounds when she's in Britain, but she has six pence left. And maybe she's thinking those are almost like souvenirs, right? Like I got a little money, take it with me. I don't know, it's interesting. I mean, look, one thing we can say for certain about this woman is she is well traveled. I mean, she has been all over Europe. Now, I don't know once again how unusual that was. Like now I wouldn't think it was unusual at all. But now obviously you have freedom of travel in Europe. You don't even have to stop at the border. When you cross the border, it's very easy. This was a different time. This was 1970. This was during the Cold War. Now these places are all in Western Europe, right? So she's got German money from western Germany because there were still West Germany at the time in East Germany. So you know, you're not seeing like rubles and Czechoslovakian money and you know, whatever they had in Poland or whatever.

Alice (45:56)

Right?

Brett (45:56)

Like you're not seeing that. So it seems like she is traveling in the western part of Europe, probably easier to travel, but certainly this is someone who's been a lot of places. And this fits with all those goods we talked about earlier with that came from all these different cities all over Europe.

Alice (46:12)

So in addition to those coins in her tan suitcase, she had a fourth of a bottle of white caraco, which was vino monpolette half full. Was that wine from Curacao?

Brett (46:24)

So I mean, Curacao, like blue Curacao is like a type of liquor, but I don't know. This is white Curacao. So white Curacao is a clear, citrus flavored liquor made from the dried pills of La Raha orange. What was the name of it? See, this kind of. Curacao's from the Caribbean island of Curacao. I guess that was very creative name for it. Okay, so let me look up Vim. Vin.

Alice (46:55)

Vin Monopolet. Vin Monopolet.

Brett (46:58)

Vin Monopolet. He's such a beautiful speaker of words. Okay, okay. Vino.

Alice (47:06)

Is it a mixer?

Brett (47:07)

Oh, Vin Monopolet, colloquially shortened to Paulette, is a government owned alcoholic beverage retailer and the only company allowed to sell beverages containing an alcohol content higher than 4.75% in Norway. So that is a store where she bought some white Curacao. So she bought it in Norway and stuck it in her bag.

Alice (47:30)

Luggage apparently drank of it.

Brett (47:33)

So she's already drank. Well, it's interesting because it's called a quarter bottle. So I assume that's a quarter of a liter and she drank half of.

Alice (47:39)

It a fourth times a half.

Brett (47:41)

There you go.

Alice (47:42)

So she also had six teaspoons in clear plastic.

Brett (47:46)

I don't know what that means.

Alice (47:47)

Interesting. And by the way, it's written tea spoons. So not teaspoons as in the measuring device, but like spoons to drink tea with. She already has silver spoons, which obviously are not disposable. So it's interesting that she has additional spoons that are meant to be disposable. Unless she's not using them for tea.

Brett (48:05)

I gotta say, I traveled a lot. Never taken spoons with me. That is something I've never taken with me on a trip.

Alice (48:12)

I was gonna say. And in different types, just in case. You got disposable ones and silver ones.

Brett (48:17)

Gotta need some spoons, man. Never know when you might need some spoons. And remember, there was a plastic spoon in the cup, remember? So she had the silver spoon and the plastic spoon, and now she's got these spoons.

Alice (48:29)

You know what I'm thinking of, right?

Brett (48:30)

Heroin.

Alice (48:31)

Breaking Bad.

Brett (48:32)

Yeah.

Alice (48:33)

Yeah, I'm thinking of Breaking Bad. You can't cook with a plastic spoon, but you can cook with a silver spoon.

Brett (48:37)

Yeah.

Alice (48:38)

I don't know why you have silver one. To taste it. I don't know. So there's also one small steel fork.

Brett (48:43)

Mark all the cutlery.

Alice (48:45)

There's a lot of cutlery. But like, there's silver, there's plastic, there's steel all over the place here. Right. So they're not. In other words, they're not all one set. It's not like she took a set with her. They're all different and they all seem like they Have a place. Like, there is a specific purpose for each of these things as they are not a set. You didn't just think, I'm gonna go on a picnic. I need a set of, you know, four place settings. That's not what this is. The marking on the steel fork is Hackven, Finland. Yet another country that we have here. So we're up to what, six countries at least. I think we have two plastic drinking glasses, and one is marked Gilac no, 770. And one was marked Pola, made in France. Yet another perhaps souvenir from travel. There was a candle stomp that was white. I'm not clear if this is like a stub of a candle or like a candle stamp. It's literally spelled stomp S T O M P. I don't know if that's like a Norwegian way of saying a stump of a candle or something you use on a candle. Do you know?

Brett (49:48)

I'm looking it up right now.

Alice (49:49)

It doesn't look like a misspelling. I think it's called a candle stomp. And by the way, I lit like 100 candles yesterday when we did not record because I had a blackout at my house.

Brett (49:58)

So I just looked up candle stomp and literally, like nothing other than misspelled stuff comes up.

Alice (50:06)

So maybe it is misspelled, but candle, something that was white. A small sewing kit, needles and thread, stamped Hotel Regina Genevieve Suisse. So a Swiss hotel. And I take this as the, like, free ones that they give you at your hotel room, right? Like, I have a million of them.

Brett (50:26)

I take one every time.

Alice (50:27)

I love them. You never know you're gonna need them. But in other words, like, she probably stayed at this Swiss hotel and this was just part of the toiletries that were given. And it was in her bag. Small plastic matchbox marked Versandhaus bit USA 239 Flinsburg. In other words, this is a German mail order sex shop.

Brett (50:47)

There you go. That's where I get my matches from.

Alice (50:49)

Remember back in the day when all. No matter what kind of store, like a toy store to a sex shop, their, like, marketing materials would be a matchbox. And then we.

Brett (50:58)

And then we get a matchbox from every place I ever went. I have so many matchbox boxes.

Alice (51:04)

You still have them?

Brett (51:05)

Oh, yeah, I got tons of them. I mean, because.

Alice (51:07)

Have you tried them?

Brett (51:09)

You know, I haven't.

Alice (51:10)

They disintegrate. That's the only reason, I tell you, because I used to have a ton of them and then I needed them and they all disintegrated because I had them for so long.

Brett (51:16)

Yeah. And now, you know, obviously nobody smokes anymore, though I hear it's coming back. And so I don't give matchbooks anymore. It makes me sad.

Alice (51:24)

Well, anyway, so it's a mail order sex shop. So I guess there's a chance that she didn't actually go to this German mail order sex shop, but she did have German francs. So it's very possible she was in Germany and visited the mail order sex shop.

Brett (51:38)

I looked into this. So at the time, this sex shop was kind of like a small place, like a mom and pop store. Right. But now it's one of the biggest German sex stores. I mean, in Germany, it's like a nationwide worldwide chain now. So they've really like blown up since this happened. But at the time it would have been smaller. And it's a little unclear what her interaction would have been with this. I mean, obviously she didn't look it up on the Internet. Right. And this is German. And once again, like, we're trying to figure out who this woman is, where'd she come from? And so these are all like little anchors for possible places that maybe she was from or frequented.

Alice (52:25)

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Brett (53:27)

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Alice (54:06)

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Brett (54:29)

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Alice (55:04)

So the list goes on. She also had a trench coat that was beige and it had fake fur edgings. She had a fur hat in simple Cossack shape with the markings removed, by the way. She's had a couple fur things, but also she also has had fur, I mean, short dresses and skirts, which is interesting to me because you usually use fur when it's cold and she is in Norway in the winter, so it would make sense to have fur coats. It doesn't really make sense in one outfit to wear like a short skirt and fur because the elements probably don't call for a short skirt, which means she probably was packing for multiple types of weather.

Brett (55:41)

And this kind of goes back to the spoons and the forks, right? Like, it's almost like she has, I'm not gonna say she has everything that she owns, but she's prepared for really anything. Right. Like you said, she's got the more summer style clothes mixed in with winter style clothes. Even though, as you said, she's in Norway in the winter. You don't really need short dresses, I wouldn't think in Norway in the winter, but she has them in addition to all this warm weather stuff. And I think that is interesting. I mean, we're going through all these things. You might be like, man, why we mentioned everything she had? Well, because all this is important because at some point she chose to take all this with her to lug all this stuff with her to Norway by herself. Right. And then to check it in at this railway station only a few days before she died.

Alice (56:30)

Okay, so all this first stuff. And then she also has various jackets and shawls, all without markings or markings removed. This would have taken a long time to remove all these markings. Unless, by the way, the knife war. But also, if this is your regular practice, every piece of clothing that you get, you do this. Why would you do that? So she had one light brown nylon stocking. I lose my socks all the time, so not having two actually doesn't mean that much to me. And also nylon stockings notoriously run or tear all the time. So maybe she had one leg, one stump leg? No, I don't think that's what it was. And she also had textile slippers.

Brett (57:08)

So it goes on, it's not the end. She also had terry wash gloves which had no markings. She had more sunglasses with broken lenses. She had a paper label. Printed on the paper label was the word London. She had a paper bag containing the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladat from Saturday 21st November 1970. It was unmarked. In a business envelope she had half of a timetable for the Norwegian Coastal Express, which, remember she has several of these timetables and a timetable for the airline Brothens for Norway and a timetable for the airline sas, which is a European airline at the time. She had another matchbox marked Hotel Noble Carl Johannes, gate 33 in Oslo. Remember, she's in Bergen. This is another hotel from Norway. She had a small round compass, was unmarked.

Alice (58:14)

When I think of compass, I don't think of someone using a compass to walk around the streets of Norway. And she had a map of Norway. When I think of compass, I think of being in the wild, like where there is not a map with roads.

Brett (58:27)

Yeah, hard to say.

Alice (58:28)

And this is a lady with like leather boots and fur coats.

Brett (58:32)

So she had a makeup purse which was plastic and beige. On the zipper it was marked alie containing two toothbrushes, one yellow and one blue. Some people have speculated the yellow one was female and the blue one was male. That seems like a stretch to me, but what do I know? Six packs of Kleenex. A blue plastic bottle with a black screw on lid, which could be shampoo. A blue plastic tube with a black screw on lid, which some people have thought maybe is conditioner. A plastic bottle, cylindrical, white with screw on lid. Moisturizer, possibly a cylindrical transparent tube with screw off lid. Something else, a small tube containing white cream. This seems like all her sort of her toiletries. What she would use at the hotel which is weird that she checked all this stuff in.

Alice (59:27)

I was gonna say, yes, what she used at the hotel. But it doesn't appear to be the plastic bottles that you get from the hotels because they don't have markings. It seems like when you would buy a bunch of toiletry bottles that you fill yourself with your own toiletries, which you would kind of only do if you traveled a lot. Right? Because if you're just going to be gone for a night, just use the shampoo at the hotel. But if you're going to be gone long term, have your night cream and your moisturizer and all those things with you.

Brett (59:54)

So she also had a plastic cylinder marked bac, which people have speculated could either be perfume or deodorant. She had a brown plastic box with several eye colors marked Revlon. So there you go, that's some makeup. A brown plastic box containing rouge. A tube marked Baron France, which is probably some sort of foundation. A lipstick in a light red color. A small jar of eyeshadow. Razor blades, more razor blades marked Chick super, which is Schick super razor blades. So these are probably just shaving. So before, when she had the blades for like an actual knife, this is appears to be something to shave with. A small clear glass with a black screw on lid. This appeared to be some sort of perfume. A wig which was mahogany brown. A quote unquote, Napoleon cut marked Creation Boutique Alexander de Paris. Made in France. So, you know, she got off a lot of labels, but she left some. And this would be one. I mean, she has this wig that is apparently one she got in France.

Alice (61:08)

So real quick, before you move on on these things, you can get lost because there's so many things. And the list may cease to create any sort of analysis. I know for me, but I went back and did a double take when I was like, wait a second. Okay, you have all these creams and toiletries basically in your small containers. I do that too. No big deal. And I almost lost sight of how significant I think it is that she also left all her makeup in her bag. So if in fact, she was checking these bags for more than a day. Most women, if they regularly wear makeup, and that's a good amount of makeup, your eyeshadow, your foundation, your lipstick, all very typical things that you would wear every single day you would take with you. So when I travel or check my bags at a hotel, like, I'm not gonna leave for another 14 hours or something, and I check my bag at the front desk, I may take with me my Makeup, because makeup wears off during the day. And if she was gonna stay overnight somewhere, you'd think she would take with her her toothbrush. So a couple things. Either this was supposed to be a short term check in, like she'd already put on her makeup for the day and she didn't need makeup for the rest of the day, or she has extra makeup that she may use for different purposes. Those of us who do makeup know that you probably have your everyday makeup and then you have your dress up makeup and then you have your whatever. You have different things. Like I have probably the same four things I use every day. But if I'm going to a gala or something like that, I'm going to wear different makeup. If I were trying to dress up with a wig and look like someone else, I would probably use different makeup and that I wouldn't carry with me all the time. So I do think it's significant that her makeup, this may not be her daily makeup, but there's makeup here in addition to the toothbrush.

Brett (62:50)

So there's another pair of sunglasses with broken glass, sanitary cotton and plastic bags marked Radix Norwegian, a tube marked 50 grams bet novate cream 0.1%. This is an eczema cream. A bottle of Tonopin, which is a B vitamin supplement. And then finally some jewelry. A golden necklace with a large golden medallion with motive and marking twist in quotation marks. Twist. So I guess it said twist on it. Four rings, a smooth cylindrical gilded ring, a nickel plated brass ring with large green stone, a shiny metal ring with round green stone, and a cast 15 filigree ring with three green plastic pearls.

Alice (63:40)

I don't know what to say except it matches.

Brett (63:43)

That's true.

Alice (63:45)

It's not a set, but it does match. And I obviously don't know what these look like, but they kind of sound like costume jewelry to me. They don't sound like everyday wear. So like three green plastic pearls. That's not nice. That's nice in the sense of they're not real pearls. There's no green pearls. But no one would look at a green pearl and think that they were real. But it would be for fashion. Right? So it's a costume jewelry for dressing up or something like that. And interesting that these are the things with her because costume jewelry is usually very idiosyncratic to an outfit. You may travel with like a pair of pearl earrings that you wear every day. But she clearly is a big time traveler and to carry these specific items of costume jewelry is interesting. Like, is there A specific Persona she undertakes where it's this set of makeup, this wig and this jewelry. Is that why that's all in there with the. This fur coat? Or is there something about this jewelry? Because it's going to be very distinguishable, all this green jewelry. That is what sounds to me is pretty distinctive looking that someone would be able to pick out. And she's taken all these pains to remove the markings and the engravings on everything she owns. Yet she does have certain items of clothing that are very distinctive. So the discovery of these suitcases, as you can tell, led to more questions than answers. And the collection was unusual both for what was in it and for what wasn't. There were razor blades but no razor. There were toothbrushes, but no toothpaste. There were no combs. And the clothes she had been seen to wear was not in the bags, nor were they on her body when she died, but the items were hers. Remember, that fingerprint that was found in the glasses matched her fingerprint, or at least the body's fingerprints, and conclusively linked the suitcases to her. Which was a good step forward for investigators because they do have a treasure trove of information. We just can't make sense of it yet. But despite that, the contents provided little information. Labels and brand names had been removed from these items in an apparent attempt to conceal their origin. The wigs and sunglasses led investigators to believe that she was trying to hide her true identity. So the police were able to pull two important clues from the suitcases. First, there was a writing pad containing a series of letters and figures that looked to be some sort of code. And second, there was a shopping bag labeled Oskar Rodwitz Footwear Store, which was a small store located in Stravanger.

Brett (66:07)

So investigators, they saw this, they saw this store and they decided they were going to go to it. And they went to the store and they spoke with the owners son. His name was Rolf Rottwit. And by the way, if you go to the store today, Rolf, he's no longer the owner, son, he's now the owner. He still works there. Wow. Still around. And to this day he remembers this woman. And when the police came, he remembered her distinctly. And he described her as well dressed, a nice looking lady with dark hair. And he remembered selling her a pair of rubber boots. They were blue with white laces. And he sold these to her on November 18th and they matched the pair found on her body. Remember, there was one missing and one still on her foot. These were the boots that she was wearing that Day, he said that she spoke English, but she spoke it with an unidentifiable accent. And he couldn't really place where she was from. And it took her a long time to. To decide on the boots. I think she even, like, looked at the boots for a little while. She left, she came back. She eventually got the boots. She was calm and quiet. She had a white bag with California written on it. This bag, by the way, wasn't found with her body, and it wasn't found with these two bags that were in the store. Now, it could have said California on it because she went to California and bought the bag, or could have just been. California's always been kind of an exotic, sexy place. And so she has a bag with California on it. That bag's never been found, though. We've never found it. And lastly, he recalled that she was beautiful. She was elegant. She seemed put together, but there was an unfamiliar and unpleasant odor coming off the woman. And it was an odor that he remembered, but. But he couldn't place it. And in fact, he could not place it for years. He wondered what that smell was when the ingredient became commonplace in Norway, at which point he was finally able to pinpoint the strange smell. And it was garlic. At least that's what he thought it was. He thought it smelled like garlic, which at the time was not something that was used in Norway.

Alice (68:31)

Vampire hunter, you know what I'm saying?

Brett (68:33)

I mean, you know, maybe we didn't find any wooden stakes in her bag, but she's traveling around Europe hunting vampire.

Alice (68:40)

But what's so interesting about that? As soon as you say that those of us who've smelled garlic before, which is probably most people. Boyan nodded. Like, yeah, that is very distinctive. And even if I only smelled it once, I could probably place it again later because it is so distinctive.

Brett (68:55)

And it's so interesting that he tells the police this. That she had this smell, but he didn't know what it was at the time, and it wasn't for years. And, I mean, can you imagine?

Alice (69:03)

That's just.

Brett (69:03)

And I'll tell you what. What's interesting about this woman, and we're gonna wrap this up for today. But one thing that's striking about her is how striking she was. And he is not the last person who had an interaction with her. A brief interaction, a relatively brief interaction, who remembered her. We're gonna see hotel desk clerks, waiters, waitresses, fishermen, just random people who would run into this woman, one of dozens, hundreds of people they had seen. And for some reason, she Made an impression on them such that when the police went and talked to them, they're like, oh, yeah, I remember that woman. And they were able to describe in detail their interactions with her. And that's just. It is so weird to me that she was so. There was something about her that made this impression. And to this day. And if you go listen to Death in Ice Valley, they go and talk to Rolf, like I said, he's still at the shoe store. Go pick up some shoes from him, tell him we sent you. And to this day, he remembers everything about the visit. Where they stood in the store, where the boots were, the smell when he finally recognized what it was. And it's just fascinating to me that this woman had such an impact on so many people.

Alice (70:15)

It could be so many things, right? Like, she could be at a culinary class cooking with garlic, but not in Norway, because they're not using garlic there.

Brett (70:22)

Well, and what's interesting, because think about this garlic. Oh, so they didn't use it. Norway, which she came from somewhere. Now, maybe she brought garlic with her, much like the spoons.

Alice (70:32)

And the sugar.

Brett (70:33)

And the sugar. Maybe she had, like, a jar of garlic. And everywhere she went when she would eat food, she'd put some garlic on it and she'd eat it and made her smell like garlic. I don't know. She had to get it from somewhere. She wasn't.

Alice (70:45)

If you do eat a lot of garlic, it is in your pores. Like, you do sweat. The smell of garlic. That is true. There are, like, a few very pungent. What is it?

Brett (70:55)

I have another theory about the garlic, which I'll get into later.

Alice (70:57)

I cannot wait to hear about it, but all right.

Brett (71:00)

Okay. So now you guys know a lot more about this lady, though, maybe not still very much. But we gave you a ton of information in this episode. It feels like we just started talking about it. We gave you a ton of information and really things to, like, go off and run with, particularly if you're in Europe and particularly if you're someone who's alive at this time because things are so different now than they were then. And some of the things that maybe don't even jump out to us now because they wouldn't be unusual for us now are things that you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You would never have X in 1970. That just wouldn't happen. And the fact that she had. That's a big deal. Really interested to hear if you have thoughts about that, if there's anything that sort of jumps out to you about this story so far, it's only going to get more interesting. The police are going to crack that code that was in that notebook. We're going to talk more about that and what they learned from that and what it led them to discover about this woman that made her even more intriguing and mysterious and really just, you know, we've already said some things that make your mind sort of run in different directions. Well, once we get into this stuff, you're really, you're going to be off to the races. I mean, and frankly, this is one of those cases where maybe you're right. This one might be a case where the final explanation of who this person was is not so prosaic as we often see. Hope you're enjoying this. Let us know what you think. Shoot us an email prosecutors pod gmail.com@projectspot for all your social media. If you want to watch us record these, join Patreon for as little as $3 a month. If you just want to get them early and ad free, $3 a month on Patreon will get that for you as well. Alice, you're gonna run a little long, but do you wanna. Do you wanna answer a question?

Alice (72:51)

Let's do a question. Absolutely.

Brett (72:53)

Okay, so we got one. So, people, those of you on Spotify have been doing a good job of emailing me questions because you can only leave five stars. You can't leave a review. So you've been emailing me questions. And just to prove that, actually read your questions. I'm gonna read one of the questions I got is a recent email and I have an answer for this question. I don't know that, Alice. Necessary. Well, just because, you know, we practice in federal court and it's not as wild and crazy as state court. But the question is, what is the worst thing that's ever happened to you? Worst or craziest thing that's ever happened to you in court?

Alice (73:33)

You go first. There's several.

Brett (73:35)

Well, the one that always stands out to me, and I don't know if you remember this, I definitely came and immediately told you this was the time we arrested the wrong person. You remember this? So we have this. We have an indictment on somebody, right? And we turn it over to the marshals or whoever's going to get this guy. And they go out and they sort of develop information that he'll be in this one location. And so they're hanging out this location, and someone who matches his description shows up at the location. So they close in, they grab the guy, and they're like, hey, like, who are you? And he gives them a name. It's not the name of the guy they're looking for, but they're like, do you have any identification? Doesn't have any id no id. And they're like, okay. And so, like, the guy's supposed to be in his 20s, right? So they run the name, and this dude looks like he's in his 20s, so they run the name of the guy that he gives them, and it comes back as, like, 38. And they're like, whatever, that's not him. That's. He's lying about who he is. This is our guy. So they arrest him. They take him in. So I don't know why I was on this case, but I go down with the attorney who has it for the arraignment. So I'm at the arraignment. So we go down in his initial appearance in his arraignment. We go down to the court. We show up, match at judge's court. They bring him in, and, you know, it starts off normal. And then the defense attorney says, your honor, my client says he's not this person. He says he's not this person. And we're like, likely story. Sure he's not. And so the judge is like, well, you know what? What do we do if he says he's not the guy? And we're like, well, we have to have an identity hearing, and we'll prove it's him, right? Big whoopty whoop, right? Like, and that's what you do if someone says it's not them. You have a hearing where the government proves it's the guy they were looking for, and whatever. So we're like, okay, so the identity hearing gets scheduled for, like, a couple days later. And so we leave, and as we're walking back to the office, the other lawyer gets a phone call. And so he answers, and he's like, what? So it turns out they're calling me, like. So we got the fingerprints of the guy we're looking for from, like, the state, right? Because he'd been arrested for. So they had his fingerprints, and we compared it to the fingerprints in preparation for this identity hearing, and they don't. They don't match. And we were like, what do you mean they don't match? They're like, they don't match. And so we actually think this guy's probably telling the truth. And turned out, in fact, it was the wrong guy. Like, he just looked young. He just looked younger than he was. Did he look like the guy, he looked like. I mean, he looked like the guy. Like, we didn't have a picture of him or anything. Right, but he looked like. The description of the guy, he looked like he was in his 20s, but he wasn't in his 20s. He was in his late 30s. He actually was the guy that he said he was. And he just didn't have any idea with him for some reason that day. And so then, you know, and they were all like, what should we do with this guy? And we're like, well, what do you mean, what should we do? We gotta release him. It's not him. You know, like. So we released him and had to go.

Alice (76:37)

Why did they think it was him, though? Did he live at the same address or. Like.

Brett (76:40)

Because he was at the place that they had been told by the informant that the guy would be at the time. And so he shows up at that place at the time.

Alice (76:48)

Set him up, man.

Brett (76:48)

They look at him, they're like, okay, he matches the description. Same age, same race, same height, same body type, everything. He. They go up to him. He doesn't have ID. Likely story. He says he's never got. Who's 20 years older than he is. Likely story, yeah, it turns out it was him.

Alice (77:06)

He should sell some skin care.

Brett (77:08)

So that was kind of embarrassing. That's horrible. But these things happen, you know.

Alice (77:12)

I'm impressed you didn't get slapped with a civil rights suit.

Brett (77:15)

Well, I mean, at the end of the day, we had probable cause to arrest or.

Alice (77:19)

I stopped at that because that is really good. My source is way less. Way less interesting than that. Plenty of horror.

Brett (77:25)

I'm sure we, like, apologized to him or something.

Alice (77:27)

You know, invite him out to coffee. Yeah, I guess. I guess the craziest thing core, for me is like having a baby. That happened. I had a baby in trial.

Brett (77:36)

That was a bad thing. That was a good thing.

Alice (77:38)

It was a great thing. It was crazy. I mean, I'm not sure it was a. It's not objectively a good thing to have a baby and go into labor in court. So there's that, ideally, my.

Brett (77:50)

My favorite part.

Alice (77:50)

You don't have a court birth. Home birth is better than court birth.

Brett (77:54)

My favorite part of that story is that you continued. Of course not stop. You just kept going until you.

Alice (77:59)

And we won.

Brett (78:00)

Court was done for that day. And then you went and had the baby.

Alice (78:03)

And we won, didn't we? So those of you haven't heard the story, you could go back to another episode, but I went to labor at around noon. That Day. And I did not go to the hospital until 7pm after trial had ended. And around 3pm I stopped standing up. I didn't tell anybody I was in labor. I just knew because it was like my third baby. I knew what labor was a slacker, too.

Brett (78:25)

She was supposed to do the closing the next day.

Alice (78:26)

I was a slacker.

Brett (78:27)

She went in and had the baby.

Alice (78:28)

I was. But I took extensive notes. I don't think it helped, but I did take extensive notes. But I stopped standing up around 3 o' clock because those of you who've been in this position know what I'm talking about. I had a real fear that the baby would drop out if I stood up during trial. So I did everything from my seat. No one said anything. Cause I was like, super pregnant. But I did everything from my seat. And then when I went to the hospital, they immediately, like, did the whole triage. Like, all the lights that they turn on for, like, someone who's in emergency. Cause they're like, why are you just now getting here now? And I'm like, trial, you know?

Brett (79:04)

All right, so there you go, guys. Hopefully that answers. Answers is sufficient for y'. All. Okay, so we're really into this case. This is a great one. This is one of those. It's like classic true crime case. And it's only gonna get better. So be back with us next week as we continue this story. But until then, I'm Brett.

Alice (79:29)

And I'm Alice.

Brett (79:30)

And we are the prosecutors. Okay. How's it? Does it look good? Does it look good?

Alice (79:55)

I think it looks good. It's around 12, so all the things.

Brett (79:58)

Okay.

Alice (80:03)

You sound beautiful. Oh, wait. Can raise my desk. Everyone, I'm in the same room. I've just shifted my desk to the other side. Like, the painting is over there now.

Brett (80:14)

So we need to move things behind you.

Alice (80:16)

It's going to take some effort.

Brett (80:17)

Maybe not painting, but they can do well.

Alice (80:20)

But it's sitting on top of the thing.

Brett (80:22)

Oh, I see.

Alice (80:23)

But you are at the. I could get artwork.

Brett (80:27)

Something. Something beautiful. Sam.

Alice (81:27)

Performed an autopsy. Hogan Haugen. Hogan Hagen. How would you say it?

Brett (81:33)

I have no idea.

Alice (81:36)

Yeah, yeah. Helping me here.

Brett (81:37)

Like, I know how to pronounce this guy's name. Come on.

Alice (81:39)

Fair enough. Fair enough. Finn is. We don't even know if they speak Belgian. Yeah, that's actually pretty good. So Olaf.

Brett (82:07)

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Alice (82:38)

This is with movies like joe dirt, pixels and 50 first dates. This is awesome. And tv shows like survivor, spongebob, squarepants, the fairly odd parents and ghosts. Pluto tv is always free. Huzzah. Pluto tv. Stream now pay. Never.

Brett (82:58)

You're welco.