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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [00:20]
B
Hi, I'm Juliette Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the true crime podcast, the Real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiles filing, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during, and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. It's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.
- [00:59]
A
I'm brett.
- [01:00]
B
And I'm alice.
- [01:01]
A
And we are the prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, we continue our look at the mysterious death of the Isdale woman. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined, as always, by my Omen 10 Liga co host, Alice.
- [02:02]
B
Omen lentiga, a quin syllabic word for your co host. You must love me, man.
- [02:09]
A
I do.
- [02:09]
B
You don't have to say the words. I feel it.
- [02:12]
A
It means priceless in Icelandic, and you are priceless to me. I cannot put a price on you, either because you're so valuable or you're, like, basically worthless. I mean, it could be.
- [02:23]
B
I was gonna say you can't sell me. What you're trying to say is I'm unsellable.
- [02:26]
A
Yes, but either way, you are priceless.
- [02:30]
B
So thank you. Well, that was. I was impressed. Guys, you should keep sending really difficult words to Brett because watching him practice it before we go live is the best thing ever.
- [02:41]
A
You know, I've been trying to put more work into this podcast for you guys. Not just winging it anymore, actually trying to pronounce these words correctly. I know it's a shock and a surprise to everybody, but I am doing it, so give me some credit. Cut me some slack. That was an Icelandic word which isn't Norwegian, but is close. Ish, I guess. I mean, I think of them as the same, right? Like Viking peoples. I don't know. I assume the Vikings came from Norway, right? Or maybe Iceland. I don't know.
- [03:09]
B
Norway.
- [03:10]
A
Did they colonize Iceland? You were back to the land?
- [03:14]
B
It's possible, because that's fair. Or were they, like, always on ships, just conquering?
- [03:19]
A
I think they colonized both Iceland and Greenland, but maybe it Was the people from Denmark. I don't know.
- [03:25]
B
Somebody's gonna have to dens the Danes.
- [03:27]
A
I need to know more about Viking history. I need to watch those shows. I guess that's something I don't know that much about a lot. But I don't know much about Vikings, except they're cool and they didn't wear horns on their head. I know.
- [03:39]
B
I did not know that their helmets.
- [03:41]
A
Didn'T have horns, which is really disappointing, but disappointing.
- [03:44]
B
Then why have we. I mean, but they look cool, so maybe that's why they need to portray them that way.
- [03:49]
A
My understanding is they became popularized in oper because they would have horned helmets. And I don't know. It just looks cool. Because it looks cool, right? I mean, if you don't have horns on your helmets, you should.
- [04:04]
B
Hey, another great example of media shaping narrative and then history.
- [04:07]
A
There you go. And we're talking about history today. One of the greatest mysteries in all of history. I hope you guys have been enjoying this. I've seen a lot of comments that you are. So that's great. You know, we love these historical mysteries. I do. These are my favorite. So it always makes me happy when people talk about these. I mean, this is up there with the outlaw past, Akankagua, all of that stuff. The one. The other one in Russia, the Khmer Daven. Right up there. As far as mystery, and I think you're seeing that we ended off with a couple things. Last time, you may recall, the police had found these bags in this railway station. One of them was a notebook that appeared to have some sort of code on it. And then they find a witness, someone who actually interacted with the Isdel woman, someone who sold her some boots, who was able to give a just great description of her and how she sounded, what she looked like. It really is going to help the police as they move forward in this investigation. And they have this notebook with this code which they're going to try and decipher. And as I've said several times in this, the more you learn, the more mysterious this gets. The more facts you have, the more inexplicable this whole story is. And it's sort of wild in that way. You know, there are other cases that have some similar beats to them, but frankly, with those, the more you learn, the more it's like, oh, okay, I see what happened there. But that is not this case. This case will only get more complicated as we go, as you're about to see.
- [05:41]
B
So back to that amazing shoe store owner's son, Rolf he gave that amazing description. And that description is what allowed investigators to go and see if there were additional sightings of her. So they go to all the local hotels to see if anyone recalled a guest matching Rolf's description. Employees at the St. Spitalm Hotel remembered seeing this woman. Apparently she checked in under the name Fenella Lorch and she claimed to be visiting from Belgium. So the problem, Fenella Lorch, did not exist. But the investigators didn't get discouraged because they have another sighting of this woman. So they got to work trying to decipher the codes from the notebook found in her possessions. Before long, they cracked the code. They determined that the numbers and the letters referenced the places she had traveled and the dates she had been there. Though they couldn't fully decipher the entire page, they were able to come up with the March 20th to 23rd Oslo, 3-24-31 Bergen. 10-22-28 Paris. October 29th Stavanger. November 3rd to November 5th Bergen. November 6th to 8th Trondheim, November 9th to 18th Stravanger. November 18th, Bergen. That's a lot of travel.
- [07:09]
A
Yeah. And another case we'll probably do at some point is a Somerton man. And that case was very mysterious for a long time, as you'll see whenever we cover it. Maybe not as mysterious now, but one thing that really distinguishes that case from this one, the amount of travel she did. This is not somebody who's just a transient sort of homeless person, maybe a poor person, maybe somebody who just ended up in a really bad situation and died. I mean, she's traveling all over Europe, really, with a focus on Norway. I mean, you notice most of those places are in Norway, but then you have Paris popping up. Right. And pretty interesting how much she's traveling. Also interesting that she's traveling so much in Norway when she's not Norwegian. Right. I mean, maybe she just really loves this country, but she is definitely moving around and she's visiting some of the same places multiple times. Now, one thing you've probably noticed earlier, so talking about this woman and talking about her sort of mystery we mentioned before, what are some things that are strange about her? The clothing has the labels removed. And we thought, well, maybe there's some reasonable explanation for that. But then you have all the items that. Or scratched off, they scratched off the things that would identify them, which seems strange. Now you have a false name. So she's checking into a hotel with a false name. And that in of itself seems pretty strange. And it's only going to get stranger as police start to investigate this travel pattern, because one thing that's lucky is in Norway at the time. And really, even now, if you travel overseas, hotel guests are required to complete visitor registration forms upon check in and to produce a passport or some sort of identification document. Now, what's interesting about that, this name, this false name, it wasn't just a name she gave. Ah, you know, for whatever reason, you know, don't want my boyfriend to know I'm staying here, so I'm just going to give a fake name, right? No. Like, in this circumstance, she had to show a passport. Now, I will say this. It's always possible you could stop somewhere and stay somewhere and not be asked, right? I mean, that happens. I used to work at a hotel and I've told the story before, but I'm gonna tell it again. And we had a requirement that if you paid with cash, you had to give us a driver's license and we had to make a copy of it. And then one time I had these people who checked in and they paid with cash. And I said, hey, I need your driver's license to make a copy of it. And the guy said, oh, man, it's in the car. I'll bring it in later. I'll go get my room and I'll bring it in. And I was like, okay, that's cool. Of course I forgot about it. And he never came back. And ordinarily that wouldn't be a big deal, but the next day when the maid showed up to the room, there was blood all over the walls, which no one could really explain. And because I had not taken a copy of his id, we had no idea who this guy was. I wish I had, like, a explanation for that story about what happened, but literally we never found out. Right? I mean, who knows? Like, true crime story right there. Right. But so that could happen. So maybe you're thinking, oh, well, maybe they didn't take it. The problem is the police are able to find all these people who interacted with this woman, and they all remembered her for some reason, she was just so striking. And they specifically remembered seeing the passports, copying down the names into the ledgers. And so it seems as though she did have a passport or some sort of identification document with a name for someone who simply did not exist. So that's interesting. So now the police, they found one hotel where she stayed, and they use these clues and they basically are spreading out to go to all these places and see whether or not the hotels in the area had someone who matched this description. You know, Is there anyone who is staying there? And because of this woman and how striking she was, basically everywhere they went, they found the hotel where she stayed and they were able to identify her. But here's what's interesting. That name, Fenella Lorch, wasn't the only name she used that wasn't a real name. So I'm going to go through for you the name she used and the places she stayed at these various locations. So she was in Oslo March 21. She stayed there for three nights at the Hotel Viking. And she signed in under the name Genevieve Lancier from Louvain, wherever that is. So then she was in Stavanger from March 24th for one night. There she stayed under the name Claudia Tilt and she said she was from Brussels. She then went on to Bergen March 25 and she stayed in Bergen for seven nights under the name Claudia Tilt, also from Brussels. So she's consistent there. She then is at the Hotel Alexandra at lo in on October 3rd for one night. And she goes under Loretta J. From Johannesburg. Now this is one where there's a little bit of a question about whether or not it's her, because the people who saw her weren't as clear. So there was a woman there who matched her description. That's the name. But we can't be as sure as we can with these others. The other reason we know is because she filled out those cards. We have the cards and the handwriting is all exactly the same. So you can see the cards. Those are still available. Some of the small amount of evidence that's still around are these cards and you can read them. So then Paris, remember, wasn't just Norway. She was also in Paris. She stayed October 22nd for one night at the Hotel Altona under the name Vera Schlossnek. Different. But apparently she didn't like the Hotel Altona because she moved on to the Hotel de Calais where she stayed from October 23 for seven nights, also under the name Vera Schlossnik from Nancy, wherever. Nancy is not sure what. Realize there was a city named Nancy, but whatever. So she's been in Paris for a while, right? She's there for seven nights. Then she's back in Stavanger on October 29th. So basically she does her time in Paris and immediately she's back in Stavanger and she stays one night at Kna Hotel it Hotel A probably under the name Claudia Nielsen from Ghent. So she stays there for one night. Then from Stavanger she's back in Bergen and she's in Bergen for seven nights from October 30 for seven nights at the Hotel Neptune. This time she signs the book as Alexia Zerner Marche. And despite the French sounding name, from London. Right, so now, now she's English, Right? So then there's an internal flight from Oslo to Trondheim on November 5, and she signs her name on her airline ticket as Elle Selling. So she flies under that name. She then arrives in Trondheim and she stays for three nights starting November 6th at the hotel Bristol. And she signs this hotel registration as Vera Charlie. Now, I'm not done, but I do just want to stop and remind you, for every one of these stops with all these different names, she has papers identifying her as this person. Passport or some sort of identification papers.
- [15:06]
B
And a few things to note, these names. So we've covered stories where people use aliases, but there's always like some way, it seems very obvious that it's fake or there's like the same first name and a different last name or just a misspelling of the first name or misspelling of the last name. These are all completely different names. They don't rhyme with each other, they don't use the same letters. They're not even from the same place. I think this is relevant because obviously a lot of you are jumping out and saying, a spy. She's a spy, maybe. I mean, all of my spy knowledge comes from reading World War II spy fiction. So, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But you usually take on an entire identity where you study who that person is. You adopt that sort of backstory, and there is like months of study behind who you are. So you don't just like flip a switch and all of a sudden you're someone different. When you are taking on that Persona, it is work and you fully become them. So it is not just an about face multiple times, because that's very dangerous. Because what if you run into someone, she's going to a lot of the same places. What if you run into someone at a different hotel but in the same city, and someone says Claudia, but you just signed your name Loretta, and you had previously said you were from Brussels, now you're from London, your accent has to change and everything is kind of blown. That's a great way to, you know, have your cover blown and whatnot. So this is not typical of spy behavior. But it is notable that this is all happening very close, in proximity as well as time. And they are completely different personalities, not just in name, but also in where she's from, which would obviously give You a very different backstory, if not even an accent.
- [16:47]
A
And look, this is another example of how, as you're getting more information, I think it's actually making it more mysterious because all of you out there are jumping to the conclusion that she's some sort of spy because you've seen the Bourne Identity, or if you read the Bourne Identity or whatever, and. Or you've watched Mission Impossible where they have different personalities everywhere they're going. Alice is 100% right, though. Like, in reality, in actual spies, they're doing what Alice said. It's not their identity. They use a different identity, but they have a full backstory. Because it's really important that you be consistent, that you believe you're the person that you're supposed to be. Right. And as you said, particularly when you're traveling to the same place, like you can imagine, assume she's a spy, you know, she's working for the KGB or something. Right. And she's assigned to Norway for a month. Okay, fine. I can imagine her having one identity that fits Norway. There's, you know, why this person's in Norway? Because she's really into oil production or whatever. And so she's there in Norway to check out that. Or they're fishing or something. I mean, who knows, right? I don't know what Norway does. Sorry. And so she has that personality. And then maybe when she's in Paris, you know, she's in Paris for some sort of assignment. She does have a different identity. And that would make sense, right? She has one that fits with why she would be in France and all this other stuff. You could see that. But it is very strange that when she's in Stavanger, she's Claudia Tilt, and then she's Fenella Lorsch. I mean, and Claudia Nielsen. So she's Claudia twice in Stavanger, Once Tilt once Nielsen, once, Fenella Lorsch, once from Ghent, twice from Brussels. Right. I mean, that's very unusual. She's in Bergen four times and uses three different names. Claudia Tilt, Alexia Zerner. Mercha. So Claudia Tilt from Brussels, Alexia Zerner, Marche. And as we're about to see, Elizabeth Leanhauer from Ostend. So these are three different names from three different places with three different backgrounds, all staying in the exact same city.
- [19:01]
B
And one thing to note when, you know, we haven't finished this. Listen, we will get there, but we're talking about almost a dozen different names and passports and papers. And what you don't see is repetition, where maybe you just have, like a Rolodex and it's like Russian roulette of who we're gonna be today. So it's not like Genevieve Lancierre comes back. The only time she uses the same name twice is a back to back day. So she does it twice that we've been able to find Claudia Tilt when she's in Stavanger on March 24th. The next day, March 25th, she's in Bergen. She's also Claudia Telt. But Claudia Theelt doesn't come back again. It's not like she's on the wheel and comes back up. Another time is when she is Vera Schlossenek. October 22, she is Vera Schlossenek in Paris. And then the next day she's also Vera Schlossenek in a different hotel in Paris that I can almost make sense of because she's in the same city. What if she runs into the same people? Maybe it is she just didn't like that hotel that night and wanted to stay somewhere else. But again, Vera doesn't come back on the wheel. So you don't see people, you don't see these identities come back. The only time we see it is kind of a back to back. And maybe it's to. Maybe it's ease. Maybe she throws them out, these papers out as she's going. Because you know what was not in those two pieces of luggage? Passports.
- [20:22]
A
That is correct. And in fact no passports or identification documents were found. There's been speculation that the paper. Remember how there was burned paper at her feet, that that was what was burned? It's purely speculation. We don't know. But whatever identity documents she was using to back these up were never found. Continuing on, just to wrap this up. So then she takes the Coastal Express from Trondheim to Bergen and she's e welding on the Coastal Express. So she was el sealing on the internal flight and now she's e velding on the Coastal Express. She gets to Stavanger, she's in Stavanger, this time for nine nights, which is a long time. And you know, she's been in Stavanger. The first time she was in Stavanger she was there for one night. Then she was there again for one night. Now she's back in Stavanger for nine nights. And this time she's Fenella Lorsch. And this is actually that first one the police find because this is when she bought those boots. She's there from November 9th to the 18th and she stays at, as al said, hotel St. Smithin. Or however you pronounce that. So then for the third time she uses the same name twice. Elizabeth Leanhauer from Ostend, she goes to Bergen. She stays for one night, November 18th in the hotel Rosencrantz. And then apparently she doesn't like that. And so she moves to the hotel Hoardheiman from November 19, and she stays there for four nights. And she once again is Elizabeth Leanhauer from Austin. And one thing I want to point out, there's a few things that are interesting about this. I mean, this is a case where really like we could spend way more episodes than we're going to on this case. But I'm trying to like control myself, you know, no more 25 episode series. So interesting thing about this. Now remember they weren't able to decode all of the stuff on the document. I mean it was, I say decode. I mean it wasn't that fancy a code. And basically it was just some dates, some names of cities, basically. But she used like a shorthand for the names of cities. One of them starts with an R and they've not been able to figure out where it is. Could be Rotterdam, could be Rome. Given that she had some stuff from Rome, wouldn't surprise me. But she's in Norway at Oslo, Stavanger and Bergen for 11 nights in March. So from March 21 to I guess April 2, ish, she's in Norway. Then she kind of disappears for a while. At least we don't know where she is from March to October 22nd. And then she pops back up in Paris. Right? And then we have her from October 22 to November 19. And then her body is going to be found shortly thereafter from October 22nd to November 19th. So that's less than one month she's in Paris, Stavanger, Bergen, Trondheim, back in Stavanger and in Bergen. And in that time she uses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 different names, 8 different identities in less than a month while she's traveling from Paris and around Norway and is in.
- [23:36]
B
A hotel basically every single night of that month as well, which is interesting. And so everything you would expect her to need to live for a month would be in those two suitcases where we've already pointed out there are certain things that are missing from it. If that was in fact how you were living for an entire month. Like did she have a place that she was going to store things or to change out things? Now you think about two months worth of things in those two bags doesn't actually Seem like that much. Remember we talked about the couple of like short skirts and dresses and then the furs and like two pairs of stockings. Right. Not like a month's worth of clothes.
- [24:15]
A
Certainly people have asked whether these are nice hotels or they were more hostile type places. The answer is neither. These hotels were sort of mid range hotels, so they were a little on the nicer side. They weren't hostels and she was willing to change hotels if she didn't like the place she was staying. As we can see from times where she moved a little bit, these weren't the nicest hotels in town, but they were nice hotels. They wouldn't have been cheap, but they wouldn't have been incredibly expensive either.
- [24:48]
B
And I'm curious because she clearly travels to these places a lot. For example, she's been to Stavanger multiple times, but Stavanger is one of the places that she stays for one night and then changes hotels to stay somewhere for seven nights. This to me just the way that her pattern is is less that she doesn't like the hotel and rather the hotel is not serving her purpose for whatever reason or she needs to move for that reason. So I'd be interested. You probably have done this. But to map these out, like are they all near water, Are they all near a highway, Are they all near something? There's something about the one night in the places that she stayed multiple times and therefore should at least have familiarity with that makes me question if she's changing hotels not for comfort, but rather for use of that hotel, whatever that hotel is. If she's there to surveil, you can imagine if one of the hotels she's finished surveilling this direction, she needs to surveil from the north or from the south or whatnot.
- [25:49]
A
No, I mean that's a great question. I think one thing that is true about all these places, I don't know, it being Norway, this is probably not as telling as maybe it would be in other places. All of these cities are on the water. All of them are on the water. And which is where I think most.
- [26:10]
B
Of the population is, period. Right. Because the rest of the country is. Is wonderful. But I think that's actually even today, like if you were to go stay in Norway, it would be on the coast.
- [26:20]
A
Right. It's like, I mean basically it's just all down the coast of Norway or these locations. So I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. We are going to see. It's a possibility.
- [26:32]
B
But then this begins all of these identities. 11 identities that we've seen here, maybe 10 builds out the picture a little more, full of the monogram on the silver spoon being scratched out of all the tags being cut out. No longer does this seem like someone who just has sensory issues and doesn't like the feel of tags. Now, this seems like a very deliberate move when paired with the fact that we know of at least more than half a dozen because of the travel identities that she was using. And that's particularly interesting because she clearly knows how to disguise herself in these different identities, but she's so distinctive looking that everyone is able to basically place her. Now, there are certain limitations in how you can make yourself look anonymous, but she actually has that at her disposal, whether it's the way she dresses. We've all seen the videos of someone who can just pass as, you know, whether a homeless person, when they're actually not in the way they dress or the way that they make up or don't make up their faces. So there are steps that she probably could have taken to make herself a more obscure person, but that seems to be something that she doesn't obscure. She just is who she is. Maybe she puts on a pair of glasses because there is a non prescription, but we're not seeing like a bunch of wigs, for example, or a bunch of high net shawls that may cover your face or obscure your face. Rather, we are having someone who looks distinct and maybe carries herself distinctly and doesn't try to hide that aspect of herself. Guys, my mornings are hectic, but I really need to be put together because I'm going to court. I'm appearing on Zoom, I'm recording podcast episodes. I just don't have the time though. And all the makeup I have, it has this heavy caked on look and it takes me way too long to apply in the morning. That's why I am absolutely obsessed, obsessed with the Jones Road Beauty Miracle Balm. It has enhanced my skin. I love using it because it gives me the effortless natural look that I'm looking for and it helps me replace multiple steps in my routine. I can wake up, throw on my Jones Road Beauty Miracle Balm, be ready to go out the door looking flawless. And it's especially great because it's a no fuss multitasker. You have your highlighter, your bronzer, your blush, your lip tint all together. And I don't have to use any brushes. It's not complicated. You just use your fingers and go. I know music to just about anyone's ears. Now when I'm dropping off my four kids at school, at daycare, all of the things I can just grab my Jones Road Beauty Miracle balm and know that within minutes I will look put together. And the best part of Jones Road Beauty all their products are actually good for your skin. Every formula is packed with skin loving ingredients and and it nourishes my skin instead of clogging or caking. All Jones Road formulas are clean and high performing. That means they have none of that junk in it because clean beauty is a no brainer.
- [29:30]
A
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- [29:53]
B
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- [30:20]
A
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- [30:54]
B
We obviously don't have the full picture of everything, but because there is the group of travel in March and then nothing until October and then it's a flurry of travel until obviously her body is found. It almost seems like it was a preparation period in March, whether it was to stake out places. But it's Oslo, Stavanger and Bergen that she's in in March. Those are not all exactly the same places she goes to in October November, but it does seem to be a staging time and a six month period in which she's either planning or further executing the plan, whatever that may be.
- [31:28]
A
So one thing, I just want to reiterate this because I think it's important to remember and we're going to talk about this a lot as we go on. Because of these passport requirements, she would have had a different passport at every one of these hotels that she checked in, confirming her identity.
- [31:44]
B
I'll say one other thing again, we're not jumping ahead necessarily to theories, but this is so interesting of a piece of evidence that I know some people are throwing out things because we, you know, had some questions about whether this is really spy like behavior. Another person of course is saying, is this escort like behavior? Note that she's checking in, or at least the people who are remembering her remember her alone and she's checking in under her name. If you're an escort, typically you go to the person's hotel room, you're not staying the night and you typically don't hold court for seven nights in one place because that hotel, even a hostel, is going to shut down your business. And so not saying that that isn't what's happening here. But again, like we said earlier that her behavior was not typical spy like behavior. Her behavior here is also not typical escort like behavior.
- [32:32]
A
And as we're going to discuss, she's going to be seen with men at times, but nothing like what you would expect. If, for instance, once again, having worked at a hotel, we would have ladies of the night who would rent rooms and men would just go in and out and we were not as nice as these hotels. So that was fine. They're paying their money, whatever, I don't care.
- [32:53]
B
Right.
- [32:53]
A
And so, but you knew, I mean, there was no question, right? You were aware of what was going on because you watched it happen. We're not seeing that in these circumstances. And as Alice said, she's moving hotels a lot, but she's staying at hotels for seven days and seven nights. So probably not that. Just to keep throwing things out there. You can think about as we go on, some sort of fraudster is a possibility. I mean, she's committing some sort of fraud and that's why she's using a different name everywhere she goes.
- [33:20]
B
I'll throw out another possibility.
- [33:22]
A
Aliens.
- [33:23]
B
Aliens, no. Trying to escape an abusive man, husband, boyfriend, but here. So that, that might explain the identities and all the different passports, but it doesn't explain why you would stay in the same place over and over. So if you're under some sort of like witness protection program or you're running from an abusive person and you're fearing for your life, you wouldn't stay in a hotel for seven nights, nine nights, because obviously someone can track you, find you and that's very dangerous. What you might see is her moving even within the same city every single night to evade detection. But we don't have that here, because anyone who's been in surveillance, whether like a private investigator or you work in law enforcement, know that people have rhythms. And even if this is a hotel, this is not where she normally lives. If you stay somewhere for seven or nine nights, you develop rhythms. People around you or anyone who's watching you will know certain things about you. The time you wake up, the time you go out to eat, the time that you do X, Y or Z, how you leave your place, when you leave your place, what you look like leaving your place. And it's easy to stake out and watch someone for nine nights. It's difficult now if you change hotel rooms every night. So this tends to lead away from a theory that she's hiding from someone, because she does have these extended stays, despite being very transient. So we do know ultimately, of course, that this woman, whoever she is, Vera Schlossenik, Claudia Nielsen, all these different whatever her name is, we know that she ends up dead. And this woman, who we only know her as the Isdale woman, is buried at the Mullendal Cemetery in Bergen, Norway, in February of 1971. She still hasn't been identified when she's buried, so her funeral is attended only by law enforcement because they couldn't notify family, next of kin, friends. There was no, you know, publication that Jane Smith has passed away. So since her aliases do have Catholic origins and she has that prayer card, the Madonna, police decided it would be best to have her buried with Catholic rights. So she is buried in a zinc coffin to help preserve her body, because it's still a mystery who she is and she has this Catholic burial.
- [35:36]
A
You know what? These cops did a better job of preserving evidence than in half the cases we look at. They're burying her in a zinc coffin, having no idea that things like DNA are going to exist in 20 years, but making sure she's preserved. So if anything ever happens, they can always exhume the body and open it up and it'll be preserved and they can try and use it. It was really smart that they did that.
- [35:59]
B
And that's it, 1971, there's this, like, anonymous burial and nothing. It goes cold. Despite being able to identify all these aliases she used, seeing where she traveled and her footprint figuratively around Europe, there's no more leads as to who the Isdale woman is until 2015. So NRK, the Norway Broadcasting Company and BBC were able to get access to Norway's secret police folder on the Isdale woman. And despite claiming they were not involved in the investigation, the 140 documents within this folder showed that they had been involved from the very first week of the investigation. Investigation. They noted that the dates this woman was in Norway and the locations she visited corresponded with a top secret military operation, the Penguin missile tests. Now this was a massive secret weapons program between NATO allied nations in which advanced missiles were designed and tested. These missiles, which had the ability to search for enemy ships, were called Penguin missiles. The Defense Research Institute in Norway was one of the leaders of this program, making it a common target for spies.
- [37:09]
A
And the thing is, you know, we're talking about if you're spy, you want to be covert. And the KGB was monitoring these tests and they were absolutely overt about it. And they talk about this if you listen to Death in Ice Valley, they take the boats out, the ships out into the water which all these cities bordered, because all the cities in Norway border water. And they're going to test these out. And they would go out to the firing range and they said every time they did it there would be like a Russian fishing boat that just so happened to be sitting there right outside the test zone, which they knew was monitoring them because the Russians wanted to monitor what was going on. But they also wanted the Norwegians to know like, hey, and NATO to know like, hey, we're, we're no fools. We know what you're doing. Like, this is not a secret, you know, so really interesting sort of cat and mouse game that's going on here. But coincidence or not, I mean, she is in all these locations and she's there when these tests are going on. And we're going to see later on that she interacts with some people or at least is reported to interact with some people that make you wonder maybe she was there to monitor these tests. Okay, so that was in 2015. Because of the work of NRK and the BBC, the case is reopened and a lot of DNA type tests are done. We're going to talk about later. And the police also commissioned some new sketches of the Isdale woman, which they started to pass around hoping to gain more leads on her identity. And you might be thinking, man, 2016. I mean, that's what, 46 years later. But recall, people who were young then are still alive now. Remember this woman like it was yesterday. And NRK talks to a lot of people who had interactions with her and their memories about this woman there was something about her that was striking. Really. Once again, not great for a spy. Right? Because like only James Bond goes around making an impression and he just uses his real name all the time. Right. Worst spy ever. But usually if you're a spy, making yourself sort of conspicuous is not exactly what you want to do. And this woman really did make an impression. So they're now sort of actively trying to reinvestigate this and figure out, can we figure out who this person is? On May 10, 2017, Interpol issued an updated notice with a physical description and circumstances of the discovery of the body of the Isdel woman in an effort to find information leading to her identity. One thing, the Norwegian police at the time, they worked really hard on this. But there wasn't as much working with other nations at the time. I mean, remember, Europe is split between communists and the west and it's not the European Union like it is now. And so there was just a lot more sort of provincialism going on. So there's some hope that like, hey, maybe now we can jog some sort of memory. But sort of that's where this investigation sits. Still active in the eyes of the Norwegians. But not a whole lot of movement since NRK did this investigation. But that brings us to our second timeline. So that's the main timeline, but now we want to back up and do another timeline specifically about the Isdel woman's travel. We went through sort of some general descriptions of where she went, but now we're going to go into more detail about where she's going and what we know that she is doing. As I said earlier, during her travel, she always stayed in mid price hotels. Now, even though she's staying at mid price hotels, so she's not staying at a hostel, she's not staying in the cheapest places, but she would always ask for the cheapest room at check in. So she is being somewhat frugal. She's paying in cash. There were times, in fact it was often that even if she stayed at the same hotel, she would ask to switch up rooms. And in fact, this happened three times in one day at one hotel. She kept switching rooms. And it makes you wonder what Alice was saying. We don't know why she did that. Was she looking for a specific view? I mean there was there something about the location of the hotels themselves that was important to these states. We don't know. We just know that she was pretty particular about the rooms she would stay in.
- [41:30]
B
So let's go through these travels. March 10, 1970, the Isdale woman notes this date in her notebook, but there's no location given. March 11th through 16th, 1970. This entry wasn't able to be fully decoded by investigators, but it is believed that she was possibly staying in either Luxembourg or Lichtenstein, Switzerland, based on the code that she's using. And also, I do think it's worth noting because we're reading the decoded version of it. She wrote all of this in code, so she was further trying to obscure her travels, but it was important enough for her to be able to write it down. Now, interesting enough, is she writing it down beforehand or afterhand? So is she writing it down like a diary, like, I went to Luxembourg March 11, or is it beforehand she has an entire list of where she needs to go. We can have theories about that, but I think that's interesting here. She's not just writing these things down. She is further obscuring, which indicates that she is afraid of being caught or she doesn't want people to know where she's going.
- [42:31]
A
So March 21st through the 24th, 1970, she begins her first. First recorded trip that we know of to Norway. She stayed three nights at Hotel Viking in Oslo, and she registered using the name Genevieve Lancier. Now, interestingly, the same day that she checked in to Oslo, the Norwegian secret police recorded in their files that a known Russian agent landed in Oslo, stayed there for a couple of hours, and departed the same day. Coincidence? Absolutely possible it is. There were a million other people in Oslo that day, but most of them didn't end up dead and unidentified on the side of Norwegian Hill. So maybe it wasn't so much a coincidence, but something that happened that coincided with her presence in Oslo. And recall, she doesn't go back to Oslo. This is her one time there. So March 24, 1970, she checks out of the Hotel Viking and she heads to Stavanger. While she's in Stavanger, she gets on a boat and she travels by boat to Bergen. She stays one night in Bergen at the Hotel Bristol under the name Claudia Tilt.
- [43:42]
B
The next day, March 25, 1970, she checks out of Hotel Bristol, but she stays in Bergen. She then checked into Hotel Scandia using the same name, claudia tilt. On April 1, 1970, a week later, she checks out of Hotel Scandia and goes back to Stavanger. She then traveled through Kristiansand, Herzdl, Hamburg, and eventually to Switzerland. On April 2, she arrives in Basel, Switzerland, and on April 3, she traveled somewhere beginning with an R. But the investigators haven't figured out exactly. Where.
- [44:21]
A
I still think it's Rome.
- [44:22]
B
Hmm.
- [44:23]
A
I mean, Switzerland's right on top. Italy. Right. And right with.
- [44:26]
B
Maybe that's where she got the prayer card.
- [44:28]
A
And that's the thing. And remember, there was something else she had from Roma. Right. Like when we went through the bag.
- [44:33]
B
She definitely had Italian things from. Made from Italy.
- [44:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, she definitely.
- [44:38]
B
Whether it was Rome or not.
- [44:39]
A
Yeah. So she had leather walking shoes placed within a golden plastic bag marked Nicole shoes, Nickel, baby. Roma via Barberini, 30. Honestly, the fact that she had the bag.
- [44:52]
B
Mm.
- [44:52]
A
If it were just shoes from Rome, whatever. She bought them anyway.
- [44:56]
B
She went shopping there.
- [44:57]
A
But she went shopping there. Exactly. She had a bag.
- [45:00]
B
And you know what Italy has a lot of to eat?
- [45:02]
A
Pasta.
- [45:03]
B
Pasta. You know what?
- [45:04]
A
A lot of garlic in it.
- [45:05]
B
Yes. Actually, that is what gives the flavor to a lot of the sauces. Right. You start with a garlic base.
- [45:11]
A
There you go. That's what she was using that spoon for. She had a glass jar of garlic she took with her everywhere. She was dipping it out with a spoon. Probably just eating it straight. Wouldn't even put it.
- [45:21]
B
That's what the fire was from. She was just trying to heat it up. She was trying to char the garlic.
- [45:25]
A
Garlic. Exactly.
- [45:27]
B
Instead of cooking, she was cooking garlic.
- [45:29]
A
We've solved the case.
- [45:30]
B
All right, we should finish now. I mean. Okay. We're done.
- [45:32]
A
Okay. This has been great, guys. Let us know what you think about this case. We've solved it. Garlic was the cause all along. Okay.
- [45:40]
B
Garlic internally combusted.
- [45:42]
A
Exactly.
- [45:42]
B
Who knew that garlic could be little bombs?
- [45:44]
A
Yeah, if you cook garlic too much.
- [45:46]
B
Okay, so she went to this r. Place. That's a good thought. Rome. So then April 23rd to July 18th, 1970. We know that she travels continuously. She stays in nine different locations. This is exhausting, by the way. I travel, like, if once a month, and I'm so tired. These locations haven't been decoded, but we know that she continually moves. Three months pass now with no recorded travel, and that's starting in July 18th.
- [46:13]
A
We know she was traveling. She went to nine different places. Guarantee you she used at least seven or eight identities. Maybe nine. Maybe a different identity for every place she went. Maybe multiple identities for places she went. So we only know a limited number of the identities she was using.
- [46:30]
B
And this isn't like everyone has a printer in 1970. You should just print out your papers. So someone is supplying her with papers. Or she's very good at foraging papers. But if she's traveling all the time. So this cuts against her being like a drifter or a homeless person. You need to get the papers, you need to get the ink to properly forge it. Probably some sort of stamp or other sort of materials that were not found in her bag. To forge these dozens of documents at this point.
- [47:00]
A
Remember, she had that knife that was like a scalpel with all the extra blades. And once again, I mean, not to be some sort of spy conspiracy theorist, but it's very easy to imagine if you have like a document that's laminated, you use the knife to cut it out, you change it, put it back in. I mean, that kind of thing. I mean, the scalpel could have been for anything, but that's certainly something you could be using it for. Right. Anyway, so this is all speculation, but I think it's informed speculation that if she's traveling this much, she's using some other sort of identities. And we just don't know because we didn't find those locations. Okay, so she travels a bunch, but then she. For three months, there's no recorded travel, so she didn't write it down. Her notebook. Now, as Alice pointed out, that could mean she didn't travel, or it could mean she recorded this later. And so it's not contemporaneous. And for whatever reason, she didn't include those. Could mean that wherever she went for those three months is unrelated to her other travel. Right. Like you could imagine. She's traveling for work, whatever that work is. She's writing all that down. She's recording that information. Maybe for later. I mean, just thinking through, like you got to expense stuff later and you're putting down where all. You win. I don't know. Right, but if then you go to your home in Rome for three months, you wouldn't include that on your list because it's not related to what you're doing. You don't need to remember that. Right, so we don't know for certain, but maybe she didn't go anywhere at that time. Okay, October 22, 1970. She stays for one night. So now we're back. Right. So she disappears for three months, but now we're back. She stays for one night at the Hotel Altona in Paris under the name Vera Schlossnik from Lorraine, France. She then moves the next night, October 23, to another hotel in Paris, Hotel Calais, under the same name. Now, just want to point something out in case this wasn't obvious. None of these names are real. They attempted to run down all these names. They don't belong to anybody. Right. Which is kind of crazy. Because usually every name belongs to somebody, right? But they're not. It's not her. You know, even if they did find somebody who had these names, it wasn't her. So they're all made up names.
- [49:17]
B
Which is further confirming that these people are remembering the right person. Because if we were able to run all these people down, it could just be that they misremember. And oftentimes when you have like a wanted poster, people think they see someone. But the fact that none of these people come back to real people, you'd.
- [49:34]
A
Find the real Vera Schloss.
- [49:35]
B
You would find the real Vera. Correct. That further confirms that all of these people are remembering. So what is it about her that makes her so memorable decades later? I think this is fascinating.
- [49:46]
A
Also, it's curious that she's in Paris. I mean, so much of this story happens in Norway. We focus on the Norwegian part. And that makes sense because that's where she is most of the time. But we have this moment in Paris and you might think if whatever this is is Norwegian focused, the Paris, that would be where she would use her real name, right? Because she's just in Paris for whatever. She's not in Norway. But she doesn't use her real name, she uses her false name. And she does a similar thing that she did in Norway. She moves hotels. Paris is not on the water. Paris is not part of the Penguin whatever. Now Paris is obviously a city where I'm sure there were a bunch of spies in the 70s. So, you know, there could have been other reasons for her being there. But it's interesting that of all the places that we find her using sort of these different names, you know, Paris stands out amongst sort of mostly Norway. Okay, so she. On October 27th, so she's in Paris for a little while. She ends up being there, I guess, seven nights total. On the 27th, while she's still in Paris, she buys a ticket to Stavanger using the same alias, this Vera Sloshnik. Now she's supposed to go that day on the 27th, but she ends up postponing her trip for a few days. She ends up staying a couple more nights in Paris. Why? Who knows? We don't know. Could be significant, maybe it's not. But eventually, on October 29, she does leave France and she goes to Stavanger. So she arrives in stavanger on the 30th. She checks into the Hotel Neptune under the name Alexia Zerna Marche. At this point she was said to have two suitcases with her, a black One and a tan one. And recall, eventually, two suitcases will be found. Now, staff at the hotel remembered this woman clearly. I mean, just like everybody else, they remembered her. And they had several insights on her time there. And here's a couple things about this stay that are interesting. So one employee remembered that whenever she was inside her room, she would turn a table upside down and place it near the door. I don't know.
- [52:03]
B
I don't know. Because it's not very good at blocking.
- [52:05]
A
Yeah. Now, sounds like something Alice would do, frankly, with all her crazy hotel stuff. But, I mean, it does feel like some sort of defensive maneuver, right? Like, maybe not to prevent an entry, but to alert an entry. Like if someone opens the door, it hits the table.
- [52:20]
B
But it's kind of curious why upside down? Because if you wanted to block, you would think the table upright. Because it would be at, what, your waist level, as opposed to when it's flipped over, it's actually easier to walk through. So it's kind of curious, like for defense mechanism or even an alerting mechanism, why to turn it upside down.
- [52:38]
A
So another employee at this hotel recalled that. So they would have. They had breakfast, they had dinner. They had a little restaurant in this hotel. And she would often be at those places. And this one person recalled seeing her in the dining room talking to two German naval officers. So she's talking to them for some reason, unclear exactly why, but she's speaking with these German naval officers. This would be West Germany. And she also remembered that the Isdel woman was sophisticated and stylish. This was another thing that many people commented on, that she just carried herself in a way that sort of screamed like, this is a worldly person. She's sophisticated, even if she's not rich. She's got something about her, a bearing. The way she holds herself really stood out to people. And the clothes she wore were nice clothes. I mean, they were stylish clothes. I don't know if they were expensive, but they looked good on her. And this was something that stood out. Another employee recalled that she frequently appeared to be somewhat drunk. Now, alcohol has come in a couple times. But recall something else. We know that she had a large number of barbiturates. Right. She had these pills she would eventually take in large numbers. It's possible that she wasn't drunk. It was just that she was taking these pills for whatever reason. And that sort of gave her the appearance of being under the influence of some sort of drug.
- [54:11]
B
One other possibility I'll just throw out there as well. So they're the barbiturates she was found with alcohol and some amount of it being gone from the bottles as well. A third possibility. It'll be interesting whether they remembered seeing her act drunk or seem drunk when she was with other people, because she is a woman. And one of the ways that women are able to be used as spies, if this is the theory you're going under, is to extract information from men. Right. And one way to do that is to seem vulnerable and helpless. What is one way to seem vulnerable and helpless? Having a little bit too much and needing to be taken care of, for example.
- [54:49]
A
That's a great point because. Yeah, the walls come down. Right. Like, you stop being so careful. A lady like that. That's. That's an interesting point. Yeah, I don't. I don't know what the answer to that is, but interesting. So she's talking to these two naval guys, and that was interesting and struck people. But there was one visit that that was a little weird that people also recalled. So she's in the dining room. She's there for breakfast, apparently. And an older man visits her at the hotel, and they go to the dining room together. What's strange, though, is they were sitting at a table, not speaking. They had sort of serious looks about them. There was an air that this was a serious thing. The man had some sort of long document that he was reading while she just kind of sat there while he did that. When she ordered food, she spoke German, which is interesting because she's speaking to these German naval officers now. She's ordering food in German. Recall that when she got the shoes in Stavanger, she was said to speak in English, but she had some sort of accent. Right. So now we have her speaking German. And on several other occasions during her stay, she. She was heard speaking German.
- [56:03]
B
So she checked out of that hotel on November 6th and traveled to Oslo. From there, she took a flight to Trondheim using the name E. Velding. And she stayed at the Hotel Bristol for three nights under the name Vera Jarl, which.
- [56:17]
A
Can I just say, it's so weird to me that you would use one name to travel to the place and then not just use that name at the hotel you checked into, but whatever.
- [56:26]
B
Seems like a lot of paperwork, really. Like. It really doesn't. What if, like, as you're pulling out your paperwork because you just traveled as Eve Elding, you tried to pull out your paperwork for Vera Jarl and eve elding, or 12 other passports fall out of your purse? It just seems very risky.
- [56:41]
A
She is making it very difficult to follow her were it not for the notebook. And this is another question, right? Leaving that notebook with those names and numbers on the document was a slip up, right? Say she doesn't do that, so. Or say she burns that paper. This would have worked, right? Like you never would have been able to trace her because she's using all these different names. Like say you figured out that she took a flight to Trondheim using Eve Elding. Well then you're walking around every hotel in Trondheim and what name are you asking for? Eve Elding. But that's not the name she used. She used a different name, right? So tracking her without this document, basically impossible.
- [57:20]
B
And so that's really interesting because is it a slip up or intentional? If she knew she was going to be dead, whether because she was going to be offed by someone or she was going to end her own life if it were left behind when everything else was just obliterated around her, right? Like the fire was supposed to take over everything. Was it intentional to leave this behind in code so that the right person would know how to do it? But obviously investigators were able to decode it, so the code was only so good. Or was she intending to come back to it and somehow she was incapacitated, so she was unable to do so. But with something so important, why not take it with you? Unless if it's something that's so important and you intended to come back to it, you didn't want it to be found on your body should you be taken or someone finds you, you don't want it to be found on you. So the safest place is actually in a place that you can come back to, short of burying it in the ground or something. See? Answers not coming. More questions definitely coming. So November 9, she checked out of the Hotel Bristol and took the Coastal Express to Bergen under the name L. Selling. She then traveled from Bergen to Stavanger and checked into Hotel St. Smithen using the name Fenella Lorch. She stayed there for nine nights. Again, a situation where she travels under one name checks into a hotel under a different name. Now, the employees made the following observations of the woman during her stay. A bellboy asked the woman where she was from and she told him Belgium. She was very serious, he recalls. A receptionist recalled that she wore a fur hat that she had never seen in Norway before. She also said that she had a lisp and a quiet voice. So I wonder if it's a lisp or an accent. Actually, another person saw a woman who matched the Isdale Woman's description talking to a naval officer and a fisherman down at the docks for quite some time. So again, remember previously, she was seen with two German navy men. And now we have two people, naval officer and what appears to be a fisherman, but someone in the waters. Right. And these are not passing pleasantries, but rather serious conversations.
- [59:33]
A
So, you know, once again, so interesting, right? I mean, she stays here for a long time. The employees are sort of noticing her. She says she's from Belgium now, you know, as we discussed last time, people in Belgium speak bell and actually they don't. They speak.
- [59:48]
B
I was like, what?
- [59:49]
A
They speak Flemish, which is another name for Dutch, but not all of them do. And shout out to my. To my buddy in Belgium who I've been peppering with questions about all this. There are German speaking Belgians. So there are people who live in Belgium who speak German. Recall, she's speaking Belgium to a lot of people. And so that makes you. Makes you German.
- [60:10]
B
She's speaking German to a lot German.
- [60:12]
A
What'd I say? Belgium.
- [60:13]
B
You said Belgium.
- [60:14]
A
It's not a real language. Belgium.
- [60:15]
B
It's not a real language. Not Belgium.
- [60:16]
A
No, it's not. It's not Belgian. It's not bells, it's Flemish, which isn't even belch anyways. So it could be that she really is from Belgium. I mean, maybe she's telling the truth and she just speaks German. Who knows? We're going to look into that more as we go through this. And as Alice noted, she's back down at the docks, right. Water is important. She's talking to some more naval people, you know, interesting. She was talking to German naval officers, now she's talking to a Norwegian naval officer. Maybe she's just into boats. Yeah, she just really likes big ships. Who knows? But this is something that interests her. You do one more date and then we'll go ahead and close this up because we have so much more, so many worlds to show you when it comes to this case. It's incredibly fascinating case. So November 18th in 1970. So she checks out of the Hotel Svithin and this is when she goes and buys those pair of rubber boots at a shoe shop nearby. I find this interesting because I wonder, you know, what is she thinking when she buys these boots? Now, recall back in March, she'd spent time in Stavanger and she'd spent time in Bergen, right? And now she's in Stavanger again. She's been back in Bergen. She's been back to Bergen. She's been back to Wenger and she's stopping to buy these rubber boots. And it makes you wonder, you know, is she already thinking about she's going to be tromping around, maybe out in the wilderness, maybe down by the docks, but she needs some shoes appropriate for that sort of thing, right? So she's stopping to pick up these rubber boots. So whatever the case, she buys these boots, she takes a taxi to catch a boat from Stavanger to Bergen, and she purchased a ticket using the name Alex. That's all we got is Alex. So new name, not the right one. She then checks into the Rosencrantz Hotel and she does not use the name Alex, she uses the name Elizabeth Leanhauer. So she checks into this room and this sort of goes to some of your questions earlier about her being an escort. So when housekeeping enters her room that evening, and they weren't really supposed to come in her room because she always left the do not disturb sign up, housekeeping would come in occasionally anyways. And this is one of those times when they did that. They go in and she's sitting on the bed. So she's sitting on the bed. On a couch nearby is sitting a man. And the man was described as being between 25 and 30 years old, tall, well built with blonde hair. So who knows? She's showing up in Bergen, a place she's been before but doesn't have any obvious connections. And the first night she's there, there is a man in the room with her. Doesn't seem like, you know, anything's going on. They're just sitting there. Obviously could have something could have just happened and where maybe something could just be about to happen or maybe it has nothing to do with that. But he's there. So the housekeeper asks if she could prepare the bed for the evening. And the woman did not reply, just got up, moved out of the way and let the maid do her work. All right, so once again, I feel like these episodes are just packed with information, right? You got a lot of things to consider, a lot of things to mull over, a lot of things to think about. I can't wait to start getting. Whenever we're recording these, we've released one like, I can't wait to start getting your emails with your theories and your thoughts. I've already got some people from Europe who say they're going to be really thinking about this case and giving us any updates. For instance, we had someone who wrote in already and said that while it would have been more difficult to get goods from other places, it wasn't maybe as difficult as we thought. It's like you could have gotten things from West Germany and other places, maybe in Norway, because they did have strong exports and strong economies. Still think it was probably more likely, particularly if you see things like the bag that appears to actually come from Rome, that she probably actually picked it up there. But really can't wait to hear your thoughts on this as we continue next week. We're going to finish up this second timeline and then we're going to get into all the, the unusual aspects of this case. We've already hinted at some of them. We're going to start to deep dive into them. We're going to talk about sort of the pills and the fire, the language she used, some of the people that she seemed to be interacting with, some unusual behavior that people noticed. We're going to talk about DNA and DNA testing and other things that may give us some idea of where she's actually from. And then eventually, and we're going to get into our theories about what happened in this case.
- [65:09]
B
What a wild ride.
- [65:10]
A
It is a wild ride.
- [65:11]
B
And there's still so much information.
- [65:13]
A
Okay, so we've been going over an hour here and we got like the best question ever, which I could spend like an hour answering. So.
- [65:24]
B
So we should obviously answer it.
- [65:26]
A
Oh, well, I was. Okay, well listen, we should obviously answer it. So. Okay, as you guys know, if you leave a five star review, you can ask a question and it can be about anything. And we have one of those questions. So someone wrote in, they wrote, they left a five star review and they want to know. And I'm fascinated to hear your thoughts on this. And I have so many different thoughts on this. So this is a great question. This is a guy. I love these kind of questions, right? So hit us some more of these. Okay, so the question was, and let me see if I can find the person who left it. Because it's such a good question. I want to give him credit. Okay, this is from schweikart87. Could be the Israel woman. Who knows? And the question is, who is your favorite president and who do you think is the best president and why?
- [66:13]
B
Oh, that's a good one.
- [66:14]
A
Not a great question. I mean, that's such a good question, man.
- [66:18]
B
James K. Polk.
- [66:20]
A
James K. Polk actually is high on my list.
- [66:22]
B
I mean, he's.
- [66:23]
A
That's a great answer. You can you. That's an awesome answer. You increase in my estimation all the time. Alice, great question. James K. Polk, who. I'm not making this up. You correct me if I'm wrong. He promised to only serve one term. Actually kept that promise. Crazy.
- [66:41]
B
Absolutely.
- [66:42]
A
He's the one who added Texas. It's probably why you.
- [66:44]
B
He actually is the one who added.
- [66:46]
A
Texas, added a ton of territory to the United States. I mean, had sort of.
- [66:50]
B
Nobody remembers who he was, but actually massive it. Maybe he probably even got more done because he was like, I have one term, I'm gonna do it. And that was George Washington's vision of the presidency as well. Right. I mean, two terms ended up being the limit. But as we've always said, when you build a fence, people go out to the outer limits. So the two years was, in some ways, you can say, the outer limits of what the presidency was. And the idea was that there was gonna be this revolving door between the private sector farming, taking care of your land, and going into government, not this, like, bureaucratic nation where people. People become entrenched. And that was like, his view of it. And he did it. And what did he do? He, like, expand. I mean, not just Texas. He got us more land than I think any other president.
- [67:31]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [67:32]
B
And not using more powers, by the way. Well, sure.
- [67:36]
A
Louisiana Purchase, which was kind of a big.
- [67:38]
B
This is true.
- [67:38]
A
So, okay, is that your answer? Is that best president or favorite President or favorite. I don't know about.
- [67:45]
B
Yeah, I don't know. There's a five. I mean, you know, he is high on my list because it's. No one thinks about him. But when you, like, study him, you're like, you know what? Bang up job. James K. Pole. Bang up job.
- [67:55]
A
Yeah. I mean, you know, some of the stuff. Apparently you're not supposed to fight wars for territory or some told. So some of the stuff he did wouldn't necessarily be good now, but for the 1840s.
- [68:09]
B
I mean, not the Wild west, you know, the front Wild frontier.
- [68:12]
A
Yeah. Then, you know, the Mexicans started it anyway, so sometimes you got to fight a war. And it's not like they took the whole country. I mean, they took Mexico City and didn't take the whole country. Just down to the rib.
- [68:21]
B
That's right. That's right.
- [68:23]
A
Okay, so do you have any other answers? Because there's two ways favorite and best.
- [68:27]
B
I know, I have to think about it. I gave one. You can go next because you might talk for a while.
- [68:31]
A
Okay, so I have a lot of thoughts on this, and I feel like, really, I feel like number one, I think we have to eliminate some names from contention.
- [68:40]
B
Right. Oh, dear. Oh, oh, you mean like, you can't say George Washington exactly.
- [68:44]
A
Because it ruins it, right?
- [68:46]
B
It does ruin it. Yep. I agree. That's why I tried to go with.
- [68:48]
A
James K. Polk is awesome. Like.
- [68:51]
B
Well, he. He is probably objectively best favorite.
- [68:55]
A
If you don't know about George Washington, you got to study. I mean, just some. Just so many awesome. I tell you one awesome story. Some of my favorite stories about George Washington. George Washington was one of those people who, like, they made up stories about him like the cherry tree, but, like, they pale into comparison to the real.
- [69:08]
B
Stories, the actual stories.
- [69:10]
A
Let me give you this one. I mean, this one because it's just so great. So George Washington was like a God in the Revolutionary War period. You know, like, if you go to the Capitol and you look up in the dome, they have the apotheosis of George Washington, which is literally like elevation to God.
- [69:25]
B
Washington.
- [69:26]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's as if he were, like, Caesar or something. Right. And honestly, I feel like you have to have someone like George Washington at the beginning of a country and empire or it doesn't work. Right. It doesn't go anywhere. Like, you need an Augustus. Right. Like, you can't start Rome with Nero. The whole thing would just fall apart. You need Augustus. Right. And we need a George Washington. Anyways, favorite George Washington story. Like I said, this may go on for a while. So, you know, see you guys next week if you don't talk about this. So George Washington at the end of the Revolutionary War. We'd won the war. Great. Right. But it was obviously a very sort of volatile time for the country because we didn't know what kind of country it was going to be. We didn't know. Is it going to be, like, one nation? Is it going to be a bunch of different states? Are we going to end up having a massive civil war? Like, what's going to happen? And what one of the big problems is, we didn't have any money, right? So tons of debt, and we didn't have any money, particularly to pay the Continental Army. And a lot of these guys had been fighting for a long time. They hadn't been paid, and they weren't happy about it. And frankly, they weren't happy with George Washington. And so, you know, Washington is the commander of this army, and there's this sort of, like, coup that starts to form, and all the officers are talking about how they're going to take control of the army. They're going to march on Philadelphia. They're going to take the command, Continental Congress, captive until they pay them the Money that they're owed. And they're really unhappy with George Washington. Like, they think, like, he's part of the problem. He's not fighting for us, all this other stuff, right? So George Washington finds out about this meeting. They're having this big meeting where they're going to decide what to do. All the officers are going to be there to decide what to do. He finds out about the meeting. So the meeting's just getting started, and in walks George Washington. And you know, George Washington, he was also like 6:2 or something. That may be an exaggeration, or maybe he was even taller than that. So he, like, he had stature, both in the way he looked. And so he's like this towering figure in so many ways. So he walks in to this meeting and everybody looks at him. They're like, you know, they're unhappy to see him. Like, why is he here? All this other stuff. And he says, you know, gentlemen, may I address you? And they're like, rawr, whatever, George Washington. But they're like, okay, fine, you can address it. Not that it's going to make any difference, right? Like, so. So George Washington, he walks up to the front of this very hostile crowd. And remember the way people viewed George Washington, even they were unhappy with him, but still, like, he's like the lion of the republic, right? He's like this great man. And so Washington, he reaches in to his coat and he pulls out a piece of paper where he's written some sort of talk he's going to give to the men. And he sort of unrolls it. And he looks at it for a second, but he doesn't say anything. And so then he says, excuse me, gentlemen. And he reaches into his pocket and he pulls out a pair of eyeglasses. And he says, excuse me while I retrieve my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray, but nearly blind in the service of my country. And in that moment, like, men start to weep like they are so overwhelmed because this great man, George Washington, is like, showing, like, the price that he is paid to lead the revolution. Like, they're worried about money. And here's George Washington, this great man who's growing old and frail, and he's showing that to his men. He can't even read his letter without his glasses. And like, he puts his glasses on, he starts to read it, but nobody cares. Like, they're just crazy crying, and they all just sort of like rush up to him and they're like, you know, George. No, they don't call him George. General Washington, like, you know, we are with you, right? And it completely diffuses this whole situation. The whole thing falls apart. Everybody's loyal to Washington. He talks to the Continental Congress. He gets these guys paid in this very early sort of moment where everything could have fallen apart into some sort of military dictatorship. It's completely diffused by this one act. And it was just like that was George Washington. He just knew the moment so well. And he was the perfect person to be the first president. And he knew the man.
- [73:28]
B
Even though he was General Washington, he knew not, I mean, everything. He was so he was brilliant. So it's not that what he said was calculated, but he knew what these men needed to hear. He knew kind of the root of what was their real discontent. Despite being the general, you know, he was never the, like, dispassionate or the arm's length general. He was with them as they suffered. He suffered. He was not some, you know, Caesar who was getting fat while the rest of them laid in squalor.
- [73:57]
A
And Washington, you know, famously resigned his commission when he was elected president, which was a big deal because once again, he could have been Caesar, right? I mean, he just could have been Caesar and everybody would have been.
- [74:09]
B
They wanted him to be. They wanted him. That was the big thing. They wanted him to be king.
- [74:12]
A
He could have served for life. He did not. He served two terms and didn't run again. And like, that was shocking. Like, supposedly the King of England, King George iii, when he learned that George Washington had voluntarily given up power, he was stunned into silence, like he could not believe it, that anyone would do something like that. And it was just. And obviously, until in the Hamilton musical.
- [74:36]
B
You know, obviously, George says, you can do that.
- [74:41]
A
Yeah. I mean, and that's. The Hamilton musical is great, by the way.
- [74:44]
B
It's phenomenal, really.
- [74:45]
A
Sort of showing all this. So anyway, so we got to knock George Washington out. He can't be in because he would.
- [74:50]
B
Okay, then who? Who? Okay, you can do favorite or best.
- [74:52]
A
Well, I gotta knock out Lincoln too.
- [74:54]
B
Oh, you're gonna do. Oh, my gosh, yes, of course. Lincoln gave his life as well.
- [74:59]
A
Saved the country. Like, Washington founded it. Lincoln saved it. A lot of really terrible presidents. I mean, just some awful. I mean, we could do awful presidents all day long, right? I think my favorite awful president is. I think it was John Tyler, so. John Tyler.
- [75:15]
B
Is it John Tyler, Zach? No.
- [75:17]
A
Well, there was Zachary. There was Taylor as well.
- [75:19]
B
Taylor Tay was not great.
- [75:20]
A
Taylor died in office.
- [75:21]
B
I know.
- [75:21]
A
You know, and we got, I think Millard Fillmore after him. But anyway, so Tyler, famously, he's President of the United States, and then when secession happens, he chairs the Virginia secession movement and then runs far and wins a seat in the Confederate Congress. They're just like, wow. Even from President United States to a member of the Confederate Congress, he dies in 1862. So he doesn't actually live do much there. But nevertheless, I mean, just like, wow, that's something. Okay, so I mean, you stole Polk from me.
- [75:52]
B
I didn't. Poke was. You were not going to say pork.
- [75:55]
A
Polk was up.
- [75:57]
B
But you're only now saying that because I said it. We've opened up the possibilities. I've removed one possibility.
- [76:05]
A
Right. Wow. Because, like, when I saw this question, I was like, oh, God, I got so many answers. You know, they're. They're sort of the. The unsung people. Like Calvin Coolidge.
- [76:15]
B
Right.
- [76:16]
A
I mean, he was president during the Roaring twenties. Maybe some what he did set up the Great Depression. I don't know. But I mean, you know, he didn't really. This is a problem, right? Like, Lincoln, Roosevelt, people like that had the advantage of a war, Right. Because if you have a war, like.
- [76:31]
B
A big war, people rally around.
- [76:32]
A
Yeah. Everything's sort of decided by your war. Like, what's really hard is when you don't have a war and you have to actually govern. Like, imagine if Lincoln had been elected in, like, 1848. Would he have been a great president? I don't know. Like, if he had to actually, like, deal with domestic issues and stuff and like, taxes and all that stuff, like, would he been a great person? I don't know. But he had the benefit, quote, unquote, benefit of a civil war. Right. So we think of him as like, all that. So, like, I think. I mean, Teddy Roosevelt's way up there. Big fan of Teddy Roosevelt.
- [77:01]
B
Just created the teddy bear.
- [77:03]
A
Created the teddy bear.
- [77:04]
B
Literally, I have, like hundreds of teddy bears in my house right now.
- [77:09]
A
Created national parks conservationist, mustache. Got shot and finished a speech. You familiar with this?
- [77:17]
B
It's really a. Yes.
- [77:18]
A
It takes more than that to stop a bull moose. Right. I mean, just so he's. He's up there, like, he's talking about things that it's hard to believe happened. The fact that Ronald Reagan won 49 states.
- [77:32]
B
I mean, can you imagine 49 states.
- [77:34]
A
49 states for reelection. For reelection. Right. Like 49. Do you know. Do you know the state he didn't win?
- [77:40]
B
Texas.
- [77:41]
A
No, he won Texas.
- [77:43]
B
I have no idea.
- [77:44]
A
Which actually, it is interesting because he won Massachusetts.
- [77:47]
B
Right?
- [77:47]
A
And he won, like the Deep south, which was weird, like you don't normally think of, especially at that time. I mean, Deep south states still went for Democrats, but you had, like, him winning both. Give me another guess.
- [77:59]
B
This is, this is totally obscure.
- [78:01]
A
I mean, it's, it's one of the 50 states.
- [78:04]
B
So I don't know. I was going with Texas because Texas is very independent minded. So when you're popular, they just, they just want their own thing. Illinois?
- [78:13]
A
No, but that's close. That is close. Okay, maybe. Guess I give you a hint. That probably won't help. So in 1984, he ran against Walter Mondale, who was the governor of this state.
- [78:25]
B
Is it Minnesota?
- [78:27]
A
Minnesota. It was Minnesota. And the story about Ronald Reagan. So at the end of the 84 campaign. So Mondale had started out kind of strong because people worried because Reagan was older and back then we cared if you were old and ran for president. We don't care about that anymore, apparently. And really, by those standards, I know the race was basically over. The first debate. Reagan got asked a question about his age, and his response is, you know, I promise not to use the youth of my opponent against him, right? And everybody laughed, including Mondale. And that was like, the end of that, right? So anyways, so they get to the end of the, the campaign, and he was just so.
- [79:02]
B
He was so affable.
- [79:03]
A
He was very quick, right? So one of his advisors, his campaign manager, as a matter of fact, comes in and says, you know, Mr. President, the elections in two weeks, we've ran the numbers and it's neck and neck in Minnesota. Like, we think if we put some money in there, if you appear, we can win Minnesota and you'll win all 50 states. And Reagan said, I'm not going to do that to Walter Mondale. Pull all the money. And so they pulled all the money out of Minnesota. No more ads. And it was close, but Walter Mondale ended up winning Minnesota. And that's just one of those human moments, right? Like, you just don't think about, like, these are. We demonize the president so much and Ronald Reagan, certainly controversial these days, but we demonize these people so much. But, I mean, they're real people, right? And like, they had their good moments and their bad moments. I mean, except for like, lbj, he was basically all bad, you know, but, like, they can do sort of these inspiring things. So I don't know. I'm gonna go with Roosevelt as my favorite. Best is hard, since I've learned best.
- [80:01]
B
Is hard, because by what metric? Right There are so many metrics by which you could go by.
- [80:06]
A
Yeah, yeah. I don't know. That's hard.
- [80:08]
B
We. It could always be part two of answering this question next time. Because I have to think about that.
- [80:12]
A
I've been thinking about it a lot. I'm gonna have to think about it, you know, because they all had, like. Once again, we're 15 minutes to answer this question. And thank you for indulging me, Alice, because we have no.
- [80:23]
B
This is fascinating. You know, I love your history tangent.
- [80:26]
A
Roosevelt, obviously, World War II, that was really important. Great Depression. I mean, the Great Depression could have broken the country. I mean, that was a time when Communist powers were rising. You know, in Germany, you have the Great Depression, you end up with the Nazis. So, like, you could have had a really bad situation. And Roosevelt, who also is controversial among certain people, you know, I mean, he did a lot of things that were controversial. He vastly expanded the government. He created all these programs. He threatened to pack the Supreme Court with people who would rule in his favor. You know, but he also brought a lot of stability to the nation. And the one thing I really love about Roosevelt, in the whole New Deal program, so the work projects. Work Projects Administration, wpa. So in the south in particular, right? Roosevelt did all these things to try and create work, create jobs. And economists will tell you that was like a waste of money because, you know, broken window theory, like breaking a window, somebody can replace a window, doesn't actually create value because you're breaking the window. Okay, whatever. But in the south in particular, and if you've heard, like, Song of the south by Alabama, Mr. Roosevelt's gonna save us all, and Daddy gets a job with the tva. He bought a washing machine and then a Chevrolet. I mean, like, in the south, these opportunities were really important. And the thing that I love about the WPA to this day, day, there are things people made while working in the WPA that we still use, right. Like now I feel like we spend money and I don't know where it goes. It just disappears, Right? But, like, there are stadiums and bridges and dams and roads. Like, all this stuff, the TVA itself, that power plants, you know, built. Like in Montgomery, half the government buildings are WPA projects. Like, there's just stuff that was built in that that we still have, that.
- [82:14]
B
We still use, which is pretty good. It's a good investment. Yeah.
- [82:17]
A
Anyways, okay, I'm probably rambling now.
- [82:20]
B
I love that. That was so good. But now I think we should all go watch Hamilton.
- [82:24]
A
Yeah. Dwight D. Eisenhower, he was Good. He's a general.
- [82:26]
B
Like, you know, there's a. So this is actually an interesting question because we have like a kids placemat of all the presidents. It stops after like I actually think Obama maybe. I don't know why it's like not updated. But like my kids read it and they ask me all the time, like, what's a good. Like objectively, what is a good president? What makes a good president, what makes a bad president? And like, who is your favorite? So they, they have favorites all the time, but it's not based on history, it's based on, you know, how they look. But you know that Ronald Reagan loved jelly beans, right? That was like his. He loved jelly beans. And so there's like these kid pictures of like kid drawings, you know, of, of Ronald Reagan holding a jelly bean. It's like a red jelly bean or something. And so that's all my, at the time, 3 year old knew about Ronald Reagan was that he loved jelly beans. And he would hold a jelly bean like this. And so every day at dinner he would like talk about Ronald Reagan and how much he liked him. He didn't know anything about Ronald Reagan, like what he had done, that he was a movie star. Nothing, just that he liked jelly beans. And one time he looked over and he had a raspberry on his finger. I thought he was just playing around, whatever. You know, this is like a common thing where you put like raspberries as little toppers on your hands. But he had one and he was standing there and he smiled at me really big and I was like, what's up, bud? And he said, who am I? And I said, I don't know. And he held up the picture of Ronald Reagan from the book and he had a red jelly bean in his hand and it looked just like a raspberry on his finger. And he said, he said, I'm Ronald Reagan. There you go. There's your kid's story for the day.
- [84:04]
A
I mean, the proof that Ronald Reagan was a great president was he was popular enough that H.W. bush was able to get elected because that was the politician in history.
- [84:12]
B
Well, he was not a good.
- [84:13]
A
What do you think about him as president? Awful politician, but managed to win just on the strength of Reagan. I was born. You know, I always have a special affinity for the president. He was president when you were born. I was. You were born too. You're Reagan. You're Reagan when you're born. Are you a boy?
- [84:28]
B
86.
- [84:29]
A
Oh, you're Reagan.
- [84:30]
B
Yeah, Reagan.
- [84:31]
A
You're Reagan. Really? I'm Reagan.
- [84:33]
B
Yes. Okay. I'm almost too young.
- [84:34]
A
Barely Reagan, because I was barely Reagan because I'm old. You're.
- [84:37]
B
Wait, you're.
- [84:37]
A
No, no, A couple years.
- [84:39]
B
Yeah. Reagan by a couple. Yo. No, you're right. You're right.
- [84:41]
A
Yeah.
- [84:41]
B
Because. Yep.
- [84:42]
A
The tear down this wall speech, obviously, like, big moment. Big. I mean, I feel like Reagan was the last great speaker. Obama had some. Obama had some good speeches, you know.
- [84:56]
B
He did. He did. But the Reagan ones were like. They make movies out of those. Have you seen. Isn't there a new Reagan movie out there?
- [85:01]
A
Is James Brolin or something? No, no, no, that's golden.
- [85:05]
B
What's his name?
- [85:06]
A
What is his name?
- [85:07]
B
We saw him together. Darn it. What is it? Okay, wait. Reagan movie.
- [85:13]
A
You look up the Reagan movie. Obama's best speech, 2024, was Dennis Quaid played Reagan. If you.
- [85:21]
B
That movie. Good. Anybody know?
- [85:22]
A
I don't watch those kind of movies.
- [85:24]
B
So I can't say I kind of. I like biopics. I like them. I don't know. I think they're great.
- [85:30]
A
You should watch it. So I don't know if I'll watch that one, but in my opinion is when he won South Carolina. So in 2000, the 2008 primary, he wins South Carolina. And it was sort of a surprise because Hillary Clinton was rolling on to victory, and Obama was this sort of. I mean, he was. People really liked him, obviously, and he was inspiring, but there was this feeling of like, can he really win? And then he won. South Carolina was this big deal. Like, it was his breakthrough moment, and he gives a speech after he wins, and it was just. It was awesome. I mean, I remember watching it and just thinking, wow, this is the best speech he gave, I think, in his whole. His whole time, frankly. I felt like Obama's speeches when he was president weren't that great, but his campaign speeches were really good because. Speech.
- [86:11]
B
Because I think he probably wrote a lot more of them.
- [86:14]
A
Yeah.
- [86:15]
B
Rather than when he was president. Because all your speeches are written for you and, like, you're jumping on speech.
- [86:19]
A
To speech, and we've been stuck with Trump and Biden, who. Bipartisanship. They're hilarious speakers ever.
- [86:28]
B
They're hilarious, though. They're so caricaturizable.
- [86:33]
A
Yes, they are. Bill Clinton. Great speaker. Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton was completely vacuous. Presidency. Right. Because, I mean, the 90s were really the roaring 20s again. So he's kind of like Silent Cal. You know, he, like, shows up, the Cold War's ended. He gets the whole Cold War benefit, peace dividend. You know, we're able to slash the military. He balances the budget, but didn't really do anything except, like, get involved in a bunch of scandals. But great speaker, tremendous speaker. Just a great politician, you know? Anyway. All right, so if anybody wants to talk about the worst presidents ever, I'll say this, Alice is like, why are you still talking? It's time for us to wrap this up.
- [87:14]
B
Talk away.
- [87:15]
A
Do you have a. Do you have an opinion on the worst president? Do you have a worst president?
- [87:19]
B
The guy who died, like, after Inauguration Day?
- [87:22]
A
I feel like William Henry Harrison. You can't judge him, right? Because he was present for.
- [87:26]
B
He didn't put on a coat. He should have listened to his mama and put on a coat. And instead, he caught his cold and died. He caught his death, I mean, and died.
- [87:34]
A
So, I mean, really, you could point to any of the presidents right before the Civil War because each one of them, like, screwed up in their own way to lead to the Civil War. I think that's a little unfair because I don't know that that was avoidable. That was sort of like a train that was just headed off the tracks, right? But Franklin Pierce, my recollection about Franklin Pierce, and someone can correct me if this isn't correct, right after he won, I believe his wife and his child were killed in, like, a train derailment or something. And he became an alcoholic and was basically drunk his entire presidency. That's my recollection of Franklin Pierce. So definitely bad. And then I think, honestly, just the indisputable worst president is James Buchanan. James Buchanan. Because like I said, I think it's a little unfair to blame everybody else for the Civil War, But James Buchanan was. Was like, if you wanted a president to lead us into a civil war, James Buchanan was your guy.
- [88:30]
B
He's your man.
- [88:31]
A
He's your man.
- [88:31]
B
Everyone has a. Has a place in history, right?
- [88:34]
A
The only. I may be making this up, but the only bachelor president, some believe the first and probably only up to this point, gay president, his vice president, Rufus King, if I remember correctly. The only vice president from Alabama. They used to call him and James Buchanan Fancy And Nancy in D.C. was he. Because they were, like, had a weird relationship and everybody thought they were, like, in a relationship. So then he becomes his vice president. Also the only vice president not sworn in in the United States. He was sworn in in Cuba because he had tuberculosis, and he'd gone to Cuba in the hopes that the air there would cure the disease. And in fact, he died and is buried just down the road in Selma.
- [89:25]
B
So not great. Not great for. So did he serve his entire vice.
- [89:29]
A
Presidency and he didn't serve any of his vice presidency. He's like the. He's like the William Henry Harrison of vice presidents. He got sworn in in Cuba and died there. And then he's buried in Alabama. And then I don't know, honestly, who. What Buchanan did to replace him.
- [89:44]
B
So anyway, he was maybe heartbroken.
- [89:48]
A
Maybe he was. He didn't do anything else. Yeah, I believe his niece served as First Lady. Buchanan's niece.
- [89:55]
B
Oh, I never thought about that.
- [89:56]
A
Oh, and Joe just confirmed it. Buchanan's niece served as first lady. So there you go.
- [90:00]
B
Interesting.
- [90:01]
A
I think Wilson's the only one to be married. Like, he got married while in the Rose Garden.
- [90:06]
B
Was it the Rose Garden maybe?
- [90:08]
A
And then he had a stroke and his wife was basically President for the end of his term. Wilson, also really bad Wilson. I mean, sorry, we're running. We're running longer, but Wilson, I mean, Wilson did so much stuff. So Wilson was like a big Confederate sympathizer, right? So you had this weird thing like in the early 1900s where everybody was like pro south and like the Lost Cause and all this stuff. And Wilson was one of those people. And Wilson famously, the film Birth of a Nation, which is all about the Ku Klux Klan in the White House and called it truth writ in lightning. Now some people say that's a slander, that he didn't actually say that, but it's so Wilson. It's so like exactly a Wilson would do. I totally buy it. And frankly, it's Wilson. So if he gets slandered, who cares? Wilson, bad president. He's up there too, with Millard Fillmore. Not Millard Fillmore. I don't know anything about Millard Fillmore, to be honest with you. Up there with Buchanan and Franklin Pierce. Anyways. All right, if you made it all this way, this is what you get. If you leave a really good five star question, you get 30 minutes of discussion about it, Right? So. And we can keep going because we got a lot more presence. We haven't even discussed, like Madison and Monroe. Jackson, Andrew Jackson, super controversial guy. Did a lot of good stuff. Did a lot of terrible stuff. You know, the Supreme Court, Justice Marshall, Chief Justice Marshall's made his decision and let him. Let him enforce it. Not great. Anyway, so, you know, leave a five star review. Leave your question. We'll be happy to answer your question. You know, Martin Van Buren's great, great, great, great grandson was the quarterback for LSU this year, so there's always that. He transferred that, so I don't know where he went. Anyways, if you have cases you want to recommend, shoot us an email prosecutors podmail.com@spokenspot for all your social media. We love to see you guys on Twitter. Whatever else there is, we're there. If you want to interact with us or some of our listeners, join the gallery on Facebook. We have a great time there discussing these cases. If you want to hear us record these live, $3 on Patreon, we'll get you that. Or if you really don't want to see our faces, because who does? But you do want to hear these episodes early and ad free. $3 on Patreon will get you that as well. Well, Alice, this was a short episode. Do you have anything else you want to say before we sign off?
- [92:31]
B
It's always a joy talking to you. This is exactly how I want to spend a Tuesday. No sarcasm. And look, we went from 30 people to 55 people. We should always talk about best and worst.
- [92:43]
A
Here you go. People love this. Joe mentions Taft. You know, the thing about Taft, the only thing Taft ever wanted to do was be on the supreme court, but his wife really wanted him to be president. So he was like, okay, whatever. So he runs president, becomes president, gets stuck in his bathtub or whatever. But then when he gets done, he cuts a deal, and it's basically like he'll sign the legislation to build a new supreme court if he gets to be on it. And so he got to be on the supreme court. So good. Bully for a Taft.
- [93:12]
B
Bully for Taft. He got what he wanted, but not before placating his wife. So bully for daft.
- [93:20]
A
So there you go. Family man, a good husband, and it all worked out for him. Let that be a lesson to you men out there. Do what your wife wants you to do, and it'll still work out for you in the end. All right, we'll be back next week with more on the istown woman. And we might talk more about presidents. Who knows? But until then, I'm Brett.
- [93:36]
B
And I'm Alice.
- [93:38]
A
We are the prosecutor. Okay, I got that. I get that. Yeah. It's gonna be cold. Cold.
- [94:03]
B
It was like a. It was like, be prepared for no power for days. I'm like, what?
- [94:09]
A
Yeah, hopefully that doesn't happen, but I. I know.
- [94:13]
B
But I was like, what kind of a. What kind of a cold snap is this?
- [94:18]
A
Yeah, it's gonna suck. I don't know. I gotta get all my windows in the right place. All right. You ready to start?
- [94:30]
B
Ready.
- [94:32]
A
Let's see. Where were we?
- [94:34]
B
We. I have a highlight.
- [94:35]
A
All the good stuff.
- [94:35]
B
Stuff. Now I have a highlighted.
- [95:01]
A
Sam, Wait.
- [95:35]
B
I have a blanket because I'm an old woman. I'm cold and I need a blanket across my.
- [95:39]
A
I almost quit my job today because what? The heater wasn't working and I was.
- [95:43]
B
Like, nope, that's a bridge.
- [95:46]
A
Too much sacrifice. You know? I love.
- [95:48]
B
They didn't send y' all home because remember when the AC never worked and we got sent home all the time? Yeah. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. This is the mindset.
- [96:42]
A
Free.
- [96:43]
B
This is. This is the mantra.
- [96:44]
A
Free.
- [96:45]
B
This is the. With movies like Joe dirt, pixels and 50 first dates. This is awesome. And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the fairly odd Parents and Ghosts. Pluto TV is always free. Huzzah. Pluto TV stream now pay never.
- [97:05]
A
You're welco.