Alice (3:06)

I don't know that it's solved, but I think I have centered on a conclusion because there are times when I haven't centered on a conclusion, you know?

Brett (3:13)

Yeah. And look, this one's been so much fun to me just because of all the listener interaction. I mean, we've had so many great emails from People, people pointing out little things like remember how we talked about it was weird that she had furs and skirts. Apparently that's what people wear, especially in Eastern Europe. They like to wear their furs and their skirts.

Alice (3:31)

So makes sense if you're going to wear skirts, going to be cold up

Brett (3:35)

the furs hot up top because she can be cold down below. Right. So anyways, stuff like that, great stuff. And we have some more listener comments we wanted to start off with as we embark on this finale. So this one, I'm not going to say the person's name because they get into some personal stuff in this email, but I thought this one was worth reading. So this person says to me this is a clear suicide. I think she went to Norway as one additional way of ending your life after intentional overdose is to let hypothermia set in. Plus it is beautiful. This is how I have tried to this person has attempted to take their own life before. Take a lot of crushed pills mixed with juice and lie down in a cold place, a scenic place and let nature do its thing. Trouble with best laid plans when your mind is altered is it becomes hard to follow them. Whatever she found herself doing in life, suicide was the only way out and she was prepared with backup plans. Pinto, a barbital is always lethal. She added alcohol to the mix. It is very bitter to take and I would bet she used sugar. Remember there was sugar as a follow up or to mix with crushed or powdered tablets. They are then easier to take. The fire happened because she was so intoxicated. Maybe she wanted to burn some final items, which I think it's pretty clear she did want to do. Maybe she wanted to add immolation to the outcome. It happens sometimes you feel contaminated and fire destroys contamination. So number one, I want to say thank you to that person because like I said it was a very personal email. But I think also adds some insight into the possible state of mind of this woman. As we said, we're going to get to theories and a big theory is that she did take her own life. So something to think about as we transition into that.

Alice (5:19)

Yes, thank you to that reader for trusting us with their story and for sharing that bit as well. By the way. I just want to say that is someone recently asked me I was doing an interview for like my alumni magazine and they asked me what I loved most about the podcast and what I said was it's not what you think. It's not that we get to record really interesting cases with my best friend actually it's the community and the unintended consequences of the stories that we get to talk about. So such as this, because I think all of us, when we listen to any story, especially something like Isdale Woman, we are seeking to understand the mysterious of life. And the reason, at least for me, a lot, a big reason of trying to understand the mysterious is I'm trying to understand myself and those around me who I love. So it's very introspective. And this email is an example of that. So thank you for sharing that part of yourself with us. And also it makes me have a renewed empathy for the way we cover these cases as well, because I recognize we're not just talking about Isdale Woman. We may be talking about something very personal to you all, even if you yourself are not Isdale Woman, but you may see yourself an Isdale woman. So with that, we have more listener insights which are always wonderful to hear from. So this is from Lisbeth. She's a Belgian listener, and she had some thoughts on the Isdel woman's repeated Belgian addresses. So according to both the English and Dutch Wikipedia listings, the aliases include Genevieve Langsier, born in Leuven, living at Rue Saint Walbourg, to Louvain. Then there's Claudia Tilt, born in Brussels, living at Place Saint Walberg, 17, Brussels. Another Claudia Tilt was born in Brussels, living at Rue de la Madeleine, three Brussels.

Brett (7:05)

And before you continue, I didn't realize, I didn't look at it closely enough that the Claudia Tilt alias used two different addresses, which seems, I mean, the level of complexity because.

Alice (7:20)

But both in Brussels, which is really interesting.

Brett (7:22)

Both in Brussels. But think about this. If and maybe they don't. Maybe her identity documents don't include an address, but if they did, Then she has two different Claudia tilt IDs with two different addresses on them, both in Brussels.

Alice (7:39)

And note like the Genevieve and the first Claudia Tilt both use like a same core but not the exact same street address. So it's one's Rue St. Walberg II, the other's Place St. Wahlberg, 17. And this is really interesting because I don't know about you, but I think I've shared this before where I know that everyone's always stealing your identity. So whenever I sign up for something that asks for my, like I can't go past it and it's something stupid like I have to put in my birth date in order to register my kid for soccer. I put the wrong birthday on purpose, but like by one so I'll say like one day off my birthday Because I know what they actually want to check is that I'm over the age of 18, so I'm not lying about like my age, but I don't want you to know my actual birthday. So I usually put it just a little bit off. And I think this is interesting because there's another alias that she uses, Claudette Nielsen, who, who's born in Ghent, living at rue St. Walberg, 18 Brussels. Note there's like three St. Walbergs, all different. The like Place, Boulevard, Rue. Those are different, but the main word is the same. And then the number is off by just a little. 17, 18, 2, which is interesting. Like is that close to maybe something that is home to her? It might not be her actual home, but maybe that address actually means something for her to be able to remember it. And then she continues to use different aliases, as Lisbeth tells us. Alexia Zarn Marchez, born in Ljubjana, living at rue St. Hildegard 81, Brussels. I know I'm butchering all of these. I'm so sorry to our friends who actually know how to say these things. Vera Jarl was born in Antwerp and there's a Brussels address form that's lost in that instance. She uses another name, Fenella Lore, a Brussels address form that's also lost, and then an Elizabeth Leanhauer, which is often misspelled. Born in Ostend, living at Philip Stockstraat 44A Brussels. Lisbeth says what strikes me is that every single identity uses a Belgian address, regardless of stated birthplace. That feels deliberate. Either Belgium was an operational base or it was a familiar identity shell she repeatedly relied on. Now the linguistic angle is interesting. By 1970, cities like Ghent and Louvain were firmly Dutch speaking in official street usage. Louvain had switched decades earlier and Ghent underwent active Dutchification of street names in the 1960s. Yet several of her addresses are given in French even in Flemish cities. So that suggests either outdated knowledge exposure mainly through French speaking channels, or someone not deeply familiar with the linguistic reality on the ground. Then there's the repeated use of St. Walberg. St. Walburga is venerated in Germany and also associated with Liege in French speaking Wallonia, near Belgium's German speaking region. The repetition of that specific saint name, combined with the use of French and German post World War I Italian migration to mining regions around Liege, which in turn could explain her olive complexion and that she smelled of garlic, makes me wonder whether she may have lived in or around Liege for some time. It would neatly connect the French usage The German familiarity, the saint reference, and the broader cultural mix of that region in the mid 20th century. From a Belgian perspective, the addresses don't feel randomly invented. They feel like someone with partial but regionally specific familiarity, possibly centered in eastern French speaking Belgium. Curious what you guys think. P.S. in Belgium, the northern part is Flemish Dutch and the southern part is Walloon French. Some eastern parts in the French region are German, see the World Wars. And Brussels is predominantly French, though officially bilingual.

Brett (11:25)

A lot of just really interesting stuff there. And like I said, just really glad this person decided to ride in and gives you not only some flavor about her and about Belgium, but just this mystery is so rich. I mean, there is so much here to dive into, just all these different angles. We have just enough evidence in this case to lead us in a thousand different directions. And as I said earlier, we get all this stuff and it just makes it more complex. You know, this is the, the weird case where the more information you learn, more evidence narrows down the possibilities. Every piece you learn, you're getting closer and closer to the truth. And I just feel like with this case it's just like every piece of evidence is just a twist and sort of points. You, your old theories are still possible because usually it doesn't rule anything out. But now new possibilities are coming in. Like this is the first time this possibility of some sort of Italian heritage comes in. And remember, you know, there's Italy, there's Switzerland, there's Germany. We think she was born close to Nuremberg. But all these things are imprecise, right? I mean, we're using ideas and technologies and techniques that are only recently invented, that are pretty effective and pretty accurate, but have some volatility. And so without that specificity, it does sort of open up all these different possibilities. So I don't know, I just. Thanks so much to both these people who wrote in, to all of you who've written in. This is probably our last episode. But that doesn't mean you have to stop writing in. If you're listening to this and you have more information, more thoughts, I mean, this is certainly something we could do a follow up on as people think about this case. Because although we're going to have theories and they're going to be brilliant, I doubt we're going to entirely solve this case tonight. So more information is always welcome. All right, Alice, did you have anything else on that?

Alice (13:18)

No. This is awesome information because only someone who like, lives there and knows of the history of like when different languages were adopted or the way street names were changed is so helpful. So thank you for writing in. Lizbeth this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds of Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way.

Brett (13:57)

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Brett (17:20)

Okay, let's talk about one of the most interesting and confusing aspects in this case, her smell. So this is a striking thing. It's as striking as her use of language and her her many different identities is the fact that she has been described as smelling like garlic. So what can we make of that? So remember the store clerk at the boot shop who still works there to this day, as we said, commented that she had an unusual smell. So she's incredibly well put together. She's striking, she's polished, she looks like a lady of class. You know, she's attractive. This guy found her to be attractive. But the smell was off putting and later on he would decide this was garlic. At the time, garlic was not popular in Norway. It was not a smell he was familiar with. But when he later became familiar with garlic, it instantaneously reminded him of the Isdel woman. And the fact that she had this unusual smell was something that multiple people commented on. He was the one who really identified garlic. Others would say it was sort of a spicy smell, a pungent aroma, like maybe she was wearing an exotic perfume. So it could be something like that. But let's assume for a second that actually was a garlic smell that he smelled. What could account for that? Garlic, yes, but also onions, certain Eastern European dishes, certain fish preparations, and perhaps most intriguingly, certain cured meats can all have a garlic smell and can all cause someone to smell of garlic. So it's possible this could have been something she brought along with her, particularly if it's cured meat, which is something that she could take easily in her travels. Now, we don't find any cured meat in her stuff, so she would have had to have eaten it all. And we know that she took her entire life with her in those two bags. So the fact that we don't see it maybe puts a damper on that potential theory. But cured meat is a possibility.

Alice (19:24)

So what else can smell like garlic? Arsenic poisoning, industrial compounds, organ failure, specifically the liver or kidneys. But there's one thing in particular that could have caused this smell. Sulfur based treatment for skin conditions. In fact, these treatments were the standard treatment in German speaking countries, with German spa towns emphasizing these treatments. And the further east you went, the more popular these treatments were. And wouldn't you know it, a cream for eczema was found in her belongings. Though this was a cream prescribed in Norway that did not have a smell. Still, it shows she did have some sort of a skin problem that could have been treated with these kinds of creams. So it's worth noting that Isdale was often described as wearing multiple layers, long sleeves, all of which could have been used to cover skin irritation. So I had been thinking about this a lot because the smell was so pungent or noticeable, despite her looking pretty put together. And we know that she had access, for example, to a shower because everywhere she went, she stayed somewhere. So it's not like she was a vagrant living on the streets who may have had bodily odor because she didn't have access to a shower. I've thought a lot about the fact that people noticed it, not so much with what she ate, because you'd have to be continuously eating the garlic for so many people in different times of the day and different days to notice the smell. I've always thought this must be something emanating from her. And the first thing that came to mind was liver disease. We know that that's a very common smell of death, right? Like this is why you can have dogs that are trained to be able to sense cancers or other things about you, because your body can give off smells that are often not able to be placed because we are not familiar with those types of smells. So it could be garlic smelling, but it's not actually garlic. So it's even harder of course to say it's garlic smelling if you don't have exposure to the actual garlic. But I thought this arsenic poisoning was really interesting because if we go along this theory of she's a spy, I mean, who knows what kind of spy, but we have some idea that it maybe has to do with the Navy we weapons testing, something like that. That would be interesting if she's having to hang out a lot around metal working places that may be giving off arsenic or other sort of sulfuric acids that may be being absorbed into her skin. That's a very, I think, sexy theory. But maybe the fact that we do know that she has eczema cream and that she covers herself up, which could just be modesty or that it's kind of colder weather. She does have furs, right? It's colder weather. I think it may, you know, a lot is pointing to this whole German heaviness of her potential origin or the time that she spent there. So whatever it may be, I tend to lean towards not so much eating of the garlic, but rather something about her that's emanating the smell that allows people to smell it so often and also not be able to point to it.

Brett (22:25)

So I think this is the answer. I think it's some sort of skin treatment. And what's. I didn't see this really in any other coverage of this case, this theory. So this is Brett and Alice original here. So, I mean, I think organ failure is an interesting idea. If this were a Sherlock Holmes book or a movie, the answer would be organ failure. Or House, the answer would be organ failure. And what would be happening here is she's dying. She knows she's dying. She's gone to Norway for some reason. Maybe, you know, she's meeting with people that she knew from Norway, her friends or her family or like long estranged people. And those are the people you see her with in the cafe and in her room. And that's why they seem unhappy, because she's telling them, like, I'm dying, right? And she decided she was going to end her life in her own way, on her own terms. And she went up to that beautiful mountain and she took these pills and she ended her life because she knew she was going to die. Now, there's an autopsy on her and it doesn't reveal anything right. As far as her organs, but I don't think they would have been looking. I don't think if it was some sort of disease, I don't necessarily think they would have noticed that she had something like this, given how she died.

Alice (23:44)

But I will note one other thing. The reason I veer away from the organ failure is that if it were liver failure, her eyes would have been yellow, for example. Like, you can't have that level of organ failure and not have the whites of your eyes be a very distinct yellow. That is something very distinctive that people would have picked up on. No one has noted that she looks sickly, that her eyes are like a very unhealthy color, that she didn't. No one mentioned her looking sickly, in fact. And if you are at that level of organ failure, you will look gaunt, your skin will look like it's dehydrated, you will look like you are ill. And no one mentioned that. In fact, what they say about her is that she looks very put together, that she's very beautiful, she's striking. And typically when people say someone's striking or beautiful, there can be another corollary for it. It's youth and vigor, right? You would probably not describe someone who looks sickly to be striking and beautiful.

Brett (24:40)

And this is not a house episode or a Sherlock Holmes episode. So I don't think it was liver failure, organ failure. But I do think there's a very strong possibility that she was using some sort of skin cream that made her smell like garlic. I mean, you know, if you've never used anything like this, just think of like Icy Hot, right, And how it smells and you're using something like that. And I think the fact that we know for a fact that whatever was going on with her skin was bad enough that while she's in Norway doing whatever she's doing, she's also stopping at a pharmacy to pick up something for eczema, right? So it's possible she ran out of whatever she had, for instance. So she certainly had some sort of skin condition. And the fact that treatments for skin conditions, particularly in German areas, particularly the further east she went, created this garlic smell, I think this is the answer. I don't think it was that she just ate so much garlic, it's pouring out of her pores. I think she was using some sort of skin cream.

Alice (25:35)

And I'll take this one bit further. So up until there, I completely agree with you. I think the facts all point towards it. I'll go one step further. That is more like conjecture. But I have a cousin who has really bad skin. Like the doctors can't really diagnose it exactly. It's like eczema. But basically she's this beautiful young lady, very talented in everything, but her skin just flakes off like it looks like snake scales all the time. And she's very, very self conscious about it. I know because I kind of had that with my hands when I was younger. Like the doctors couldn't figure it out, what it was it would just like crack and they would flake off. Not anymore. Which is amazing. But I remember when I was younger I was so self conscious about my hands because they looked really scary. They looked like snake scales. I would never hold hands with anyone. Like at school if you had to hold hands in line or something. I would never hold hands with anyone. I always pulled my sleeves over my hands. Like I held my clothes like this. And my cousin is similar. She's now an adult and she still has this skin condition, but hers is all over her body, her legs, her torso, her shoulders. And she is always even in the hottest of weathers wearing pants and long sleeve shirts. Cause she feels so self conscious. I note this because remember her autopsy? So she's a 42ish year old woman. So she's past the age that many people in that generation would have gotten married. And we know that what the autopsy said is she was a woman who was of childbearing years, who'd never born a child. Now that we know she's a little bit older based on her teeth, she's actually on her way to being outside of the realm of childbearing years. I think this is notable in that she has been described as attractive or striking, but she seems to be single. Everywhere she's going, if she's talking to men, it's platonic seemingly, and it seems to be for some business purposes. She's not traveling and checking in with a man. She doesn't appear to be married or traveling with like a partner. And she at least has never had children. Perhaps this skin condition has separated her from being in her mind, perhaps being able to have the normal life of having a husband and children. And so she's picked another life of maybe counterintelligence or something along those lines. But I do think it's notable that there may have been something physical about her that was so personal that she may have taken all these extreme measures to heal. And it's not totally healed, but may be part of her origin story of why is this woman traveling all over Europe by herself? We know that she doesn't have children, biological children, and it appears that she is unattached to a male, at least in all her travels. And if it had something to do with her skin, it may have been a very personal thing, like she never felt like that was her path in life. So she went down another one and may feed into more about why she was doing what she was doing.

Brett (28:20)

Okay, so now that we've solved that mystery, let's move on. To the passport slash identification documents, whatever it was she was using to use all these various identities at all these various places. So where would she have gotten all of these identification documents? If these were valid legit passports, then yes, they would have been incredibly expensive and difficult to get. But I think that is where we go wrong. That is the assumption we make. That throws us off a little bit in this case, because it's possible that she was using documents that were less formal, possibly much easier to get, particularly in a time of refugees and instability when governments were issuing documents with less proof than one might expect. Remember, this is still the post war era. In 1970, World War II had ended 25 years previously. You know, just for context, 911 was 25 years ago this year. So not that far away and still very unstable. And you still had a lot of refugees and the international community was dealing with this. And in fact, there were various conventions that were codified in the 1951 Convention on Refugees, which specifically allowed for the issuance of travel documents with relative ease. Because think about it, you're someone who fled Germany in 1933 and you moved around for the next 12 years until the end of World War II. You didn't have a birth certificate, you didn't have any kind of identification. It was very difficult for you to prove who you were. And so they set up these very simple systems where you could go to various offices and say, hey, I'm this person, I was born this place. I got nothing but my word to convince you of that. And based on these conventions, they would issue identification documents. And in fact, you might think, well, this is 1970. Surely by then that's all wrapped up. No, the convention was actually expanded in 1967 to continue to deal with, with this issue. So at the time that she's doing this, it would have been fairly easy for her to get documents with different names, different addresses, different birthplaces, with relative ease. If she was interested in doing that. Even if she wasn't connected to a government as sort of an intelligence operative, if for some reason she just wanted to be different people in different places, she probably could have gotten these documents based on these conventions. Now we don't have the documents. They are lost, possibly burned. So we can't say for certain. But I do think it is perhaps less mysterious than we think now. Like now it just feels like, man, how could you even do that? We're so tracked in everything we do. But back then it wasn't necessarily that way.

Alice (31:18)

So then there are the sightings of isdale woman, really? They're sightings of anyone who is found or not found in cases like these. So there are unconfirmed sightings after she left that hotel for the last time in 2006. So decades later, a witness came forward and claimed to have seen a woman matching her description in the Isdale Valley five days before she was actually found. He said that she was dressed for the city, not a hike, walking in front of two foreign looking men and appeared resigned to something. The witness claimed he tried to report the sighting at the time, but no one was interested. So he came Forward again in 2006. I don't think there's any record of him trying to come forward previously. But of course, if he's saying he tried to come forward and they ignored him, then there wouldn't be a record.

Brett (32:03)

Now, there's a few problems with this, and I'll just tell you, this report is one of those facts that just dwarfs everything else in this case. Right? People have seen this report and they have just ran with it. This is what happened. In fact, when we started researching this, this was one of the few things I remembered about the case. I remember that she was found and I remember that before she was found, she was seen with two men. So obviously she's going to be murdered by those two people. Right. But as Alice said, the only reason we had to believe this is this person's word. It was 36 years later. So maybe they'd be forgiven for this. But. But he specifically says five days before she was found is when this happened. Well, she disappeared six days before she was found. And remember on November 23rd, there are multiple contemporaneous reports about smoke rising from the valley that day. And given the fire, it just really seems like she died on November 23rd. She's found on November 29th. So she would have already been dead, most likely when this person saw this woman. And once again, matching her description, what does that even mean? And recall, this is an area that people in the city, they would go to, they would walk this path. This was not unusual for people, just like on a lunch break, to head out, right, and take a little walk. So seeing someone in the city not dressed for the valley isn't necessarily unusual. So I think we can't discount this siding altogether. But I feel like I don't put a lot of stock in it and it does not move me much when I think about my theories of this case.

Alice (33:42)

I think it's fair to basically discount the sighting this many years later, not because this person has any, like, ill intent, but it's just 36 years later. And it's very specific on the timing, and it's just really hard to verify anything like that.

Brett (33:55)

And if you just think about any case we've covered with lots of different sightings, there are always sightings that end up being wrong. So even if this was a legitimate sighting, it doesn't mean it's her. It just means it's a woman with two men out for a walk. Okay, so that concludes our sort of look at the evidence in this case. Let's talk about theories. And we're just going to start with the answer because that's what we.

Alice (34:18)

Sorry. Well, we like to not hide the ball.

Brett (34:20)

Yeah, we don't hide the ball.

Alice (34:21)

So let's just go with it because it's already been 40 minutes, so we should just do it.

Brett (34:24)

Okay. The Isdale woman was a vampire hunter, and we have solid evidence for this. I mean, she has this transient lifestyle. She's moving around constantly. She's hiding her identity. She doesn't want to be tracked. She is using garlic in excess to ward off any potential attacks by the vampires. I think it's even possible she was a vampire herself, but also a vampire hunter. So she's like. She's kind of like Blade. It's like an early version of Blade,

Alice (34:53)

like, but literally, she had blades. You know, it was a little.

Brett (34:57)

That's a good point.

Alice (34:57)

Probably to sharpen all the twigs she was finding in the Isdale Valley so she couldn't walk around with stakes. Because that's weird. You can't walk through, like, the, you know, train station with that.

Brett (35:07)

It's also possible that the garlic was some sort of, you know, that we've gotten the lore wrong and the garlic actually protects vampires from sunlight and that what she did was she went out to the Isdel Valley. She just wanted to look upon the sun one time before she died. And then, of course, what happens when the sun hits a vampire?

Alice (35:25)

She wasn't burned by fire. She was burned by sun.

Brett (35:27)

Exactly. And that's why the fire is very surface level. That's why it's connected to her death. And so.

Alice (35:34)

And that's why her hands were up as well. She was trying to reach for the sun in her last movements.

Brett (35:38)

Exactly. Exactly. So, and. And can you dispute it? Can you deny it? Can you prove it's wrong? I don't think you can. So, vampire hunter, that is theory number one. And I challenge you guys out there to disprove that theory. Good luck.

Alice (35:56)

And by the Way no tags. Not because she cut them out, not because they're secondhand, but because she herself is the vampire and she's had them for centuries. The tags have worn off. And the reason she has furs is those are the only clothes I can endure in all this time.

Brett (36:14)

I love it. I love it. It all comes together. It all comes while you come here, guys.

Alice (36:18)

You're welcome.

Brett (36:19)

Hard hitting truths and that that one's down. Okay, so now some less likely. But nevertheless, I think things we have to go through. Theory number two, the Isdale woman was a spy. And this has been probably the most popular theory out there amongst people in the gallery and who discussed this case with us is that she's a spy. And this is probably the most popular theory in the case that she was a spy for some different nation, not Norway, obviously. And that the multiple aliases, the tags and brands removed from the clothing, the frequent travel, the moving from hotel to hotel, the switching rooms, the fact that she's going to such great lengths to conceal her true identity, these are all pointing to her being some sort of spy. She also traveled extensively across Europe. She recorded her travel in code, basic code, but nevertheless in code to the point that there is one city that begins with R that we don't know which one it was. Now, she must have had fake passports or identification documents to accompany her aliases, which would have been hard to come by for the average person. Though as we noted earlier, possible, but still difficult. Easier if you just have a government providing them for you. It was very uncommon for a woman to travel alone at the time time. So it would be peculiar for her just to travel for fun. Though one might note that also would bring some tension to her that maybe you wouldn't want if you were a spy. This theory is supported by the fact that she spent time in Stavanger where Penguin missiles were being tested at the same time the testing was occurring. It was also during the Cold War, so spies were not unheard of. And obviously there are various things about her that point to Eastern Europe. And the KGB was very active across Europe at the time. If she were a spy, the question then becomes how did she die? Was she assassinated? Was she killed by a counter agent? Was she killed by her own nation to cover something up? Was it possibly a suicide? Someone could have killed her when they discovered she was a spy. Or maybe whoever sent her killed her if they had discovered that she had potentially blown the operation. Maybe because she's being so overturned about who she was. It's also possible that she could have killed herself if she had been discovered. Instead of potentially ruining whatever operation she was a part of. Or facing some sort of retribution by the nation that had hired her. But, you know, whether murder or suicide, the means was strange. Maybe not what you would expect, frankly. I think if you look at most spies who have been caught and killed, They've either been just captured and executed by the nation that captured them. Or very sort of quick, dirty bullets at the back of the head, thrown in the bay type thing. This sort of poisoning, which would have to be sort of a forced overdose, which is a very strange way to do it. Then the lighting of her on fire, also a very strange way to do it. These are things that cut against the spy theory.

Alice (39:19)

So another theory is that the Isdale woman was involved in some sort of criminal activity. So some people suggest she was involved in drugs, forgery, theft, or even sex work. If she was involved in any of these risky business ventures, she could have been murdered for just being in the wrong crowds. Something as small as someone owed her money, or she owed someone money, or they didn't like what she sold or any of these things. It could just be being in the wrong crowds. But the thing is, it doesn't really explain her behavior leading up to her death. She likely would have spent more time in the larger cities and would have made more of an effort to blend in if she were doing illicit activities. By almost everyone's account who saw her, she stood out. She was not blending in. There also wasn't any evidence found with her belongings that suggests she was involved in any sort of organized crime. She didn't have drug paraphernalia. She didn't have residue of drugs on her. She had eczema cream, for crying out loud. She wasn't dressing like a lady of the night. Many people saw her in these hotels. She wasn't hiding the fact that she was talking to men. But none of it seemed in a romantic way. There weren't droves of men coming in and out of her room for really minutes at a time, as you would expect if it were, say, the sex trade. So the things we see about her don't seem to fit other types of criminal activity. But her elusiveness, the fact that no one's been able to peg who she is, does fit the profile of someone who may be in these sorts of businesses and not wanted to be identified.

Brett (40:50)

And, you know, the one thing about her being involved in some sort of crime, it's an attractive theory. We don't know a lot about her, but we spent a lot of time with her, right? I mean, she's been to a lot of different places. And you would think if she was involved in some sort of crime, that there'd be some evidence of it would have popped up in one of these places, Right. You know, they would have found sort of a weird check or something. But you don't really see any of that. I mean, you see her having these conversations with a couple people, But I mean, honestly, you have as much for spy, right? I mean, her down at the docks talking to the people at the docks and her talking to the German officers. So just not a lot there. I mean, it's a good theory, but not a whole lot there. Now, whatever the case, whether she's a spy or she's a criminal or she's something else, obviously there's this question of was she murdered or did she decide to take her own life? And some people have speculated that the evidence points to her wanting to end her life, that that's why we see her out in this beautiful place. As we discussed earlier, you have all the pills that she's taking, which is an unusual way to murder someone. And frankly, the fire, if you're trying to stage a suicide, you wouldn't do that, right? Like, the fire is one of those things. You would only burn someone's body if you murdered them. So you murdered them and you know, everybody's gonna know you murdered them. So you burn the body to cover up the murder. You wouldn't stage a suicide and then light somebody on fire. It's a very strange thing to do. The only way it would look like a suicide and yet their body be lit on fire is if the person who killed themselves did that.

Progressive Insurance Announcer (42:27)

Right?

Brett (42:28)

It's such a weird thing that it can only be consistent with suicide itself. You wouldn't plan that. And so a lot of people pointed to that, you know, maybe she was escaping from an abusive partner, she had some problem at home. This would explain why she was hiding her identity. It's less sexy than the things we talked about before, but it's equally valid and it could explain her death. Even though it's a little unusual, but it's possible that she was tired of running, she took all these steps to conceal her identity to get away from this person. This is pure speculation. But remember, she's talking to people who are official looking and they don't seem to be giving her what she wants. The discussions with them are not leading to. There's no joy there. There's no Agreement there, there's no hugging there. Right. Everyone who describes these interactions with other official looking people describe them as being sort of very serious. Possibly she was attempting to get somewhere with these people on something that mattered to her. She failed and she felt like the only option was to take her own life. And it's possible because suicide, as we all know, has a huge stigma attached to it, particularly in 1970, particularly if she's someone who's very religious and she might not have wanted her family to know that that's the way she went. And so she took all those steps to conceal her identity, not for any sort of reason that has to do with spying or theft rings or anything else, but simply to prevent her family from finding out that that's how she ended her life. And of course, mental illness is always a possibility. Though I will say, if she had some sort of mental illness, she did a really good job covering it. Right. I mean, depression obviously would be a different thing, but if it's some sort of, she has all these identities because she has some sort of schizophrenia or something, she's not giving any obvious signs of that. Mental illness is a pretty popular theory in this case, but I actually don't think there's a whole lot to support it.

Alice (44:25)

And then there's that the Isdale woman was in hiding. So some people speculate that the Isdale woman was just running from her life. Maybe she was escaping an abusive partner or some other problem at home. This is a theory in a lot of our cases. We're just on the other side of it, right? We have all these cases of missing persons and one of the theories is always, well, did they really just run off and start a new life in a foreign country? Well, we know that Norway is a foreign country for her, very likely. And so maybe we're just on the other side of it. This is the escaped new identity. Now, this would explain why she was hiding her identity, but it wouldn't explain her death. Did she kill herself after going through all this incredible effort to conceal her identity and start a new life? Or did someone maybe find out her identity, kill her? But why would they do this if doesn't seem to be for money, you know, her luggage was still there. She doesn't seem to have had a lot on her and by way of things of value. So what would be the purpose of her seemingly gruesome murder, especially in a place that doesn't typically have crime?

Brett (45:29)

So those are sort of the popular thoughts that people have on this case. And I guess that Brings us to our theories.

Alice (45:40)

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Brett (47:23)

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Alice (47:49)

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No better feeling than when everything just clicks. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. I'll say this, we have not talked, I've not read your thoughts and I have not shared my thoughts ahead of time. But I have a feeling just because, you know, we've done this for so many years, we may end up close to each other. So I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I know you'll expound probably upon it if you agree. So, top line. I think she was a spy and I think she committed suicide. But I think it's much less exciting than what many of us may build it up to be. I don't think she was a spy in the sense that we think of Hollywood or whatnot, but rather, I think she likely was a very low level, low importance gopher, an intelligence courier, really. I don't even think she rises to the level of being called a spy, but rather, when there are a lot of people who pass along information, there could be an entire chain and none of them actually know the full picture because they're not important enough to know. But Maybe she knows one of the 10 keys that put together will have a bigger piece of information. And she was essentially a courier, someone who took information from one place to the next. And I don't think that she herself had much information. She knew that she was doing work probably for some sort of counterintelligence, but she would probably not even call herself a spy. And I think she was chosen because she was untied to anyone. I think there is truth to this. She likely was born at a very tumultuous time politically and she probably didn't have parents who were alive anymore or parents she was connected to. She wasn't married, she didn't have a close network because she was probably a refugee in her growing up years. And so she was probably picked to be an intelligence courier because no one would be looking for her if she were to disappear, nor would anyone really know her enough to be able to look out for her because she had no strong community ties with anyone for them to even think, huh, this person was connected to someone. And here's the thing, I think she was relatively unimportant in terms of intelligence because she wasn't wealthy. So the work she was doing was not garnering her a lot of money. She wasn't dressing in the most expensive clothes. She looked nice, but there was probably a way to look nice that did not mean she was actually wealthy or rolling in the dough. And she wasn't staying at the highest end hotels. And she was also of the lack of importance level where if she were caught, no big deal, like it didn't really matter to whoever she was carrying the information around for. That's why no one went to go look for her body when she did go missing, because if she were found and if her belongings were found, it was no big deal. So there was no cover up for her either because she wasn't important enough for whoever she was working with to cover up her existence. The level of information she had wasn't that important. And I do think it was suicide and it was completely self inflicted because of the pills. I think when you take that amount of pills, it would be really difficult to force anyone to have that amount go down your throat in those quantities. And I think when you are at that level of inebriation, because the alcohol and the pills, that anything could have happened with the fire. I do think that the fire happened with her. I don't think someone came upon her and set the fire on her. I think she was trying to burn something or not in her right mind or maybe wanting to ensure that all of it was gone, what have you. But I think that this is not some counterintelligence assassination attempt because if it were, it honestly would have been done better and they would have gone after her luggage and that would have been wiped. And all of the passport cards and all of the sign in sheets at all of the different hotels would have been confiscated and found and destroyed somehow. And they would have found her journal and eviscerated it. None of that was done because I don't think anyone killed her. I don't know why she ended her own life. There could have been a lot of reasons. This could have been a very lonely life. It could have been as easy as the intelligence. Currying was over. Now what was she supposed to do? Like there's nothing left to do. And this had been her whole life and now the project was done and there's nothing more to do. And she quite literally doesn't have a home. She's been on the go in two suitcases her entire life. That could be a very existential point in one's life to think there is no tomorrow. So I think she's actually more infamous in death than she was in life.

Brett (55:57)

You know, one day, Alice, we're gonna cover a case and we're gonna completely disagree. One day that's going to happen, but today is not that day. So is that what you think too?

Alice (56:08)

We really have never talked about this.

Brett (56:10)

I know. So I have. I have a variation on your theme. But. Okay, so first of all, I think there are three mysteries in this case. Who was she, what was she doing? And how did she die? I think Those are the three mysteries. I think the third mystery is the easiest one. I think you are 100% right. I don't even think there's a question that she killed herself. Like, that's obviously what she did. I think one of the reasons I wanted to include that listener's email earlier is I think that's basically what happened. I think she took the pills with the alcohol. She then began to destroy things with fire that she wanted to destroy, including her passports. I think that's what happened to her identification documents is that she burned them up. And that essentially the pills and the alcohol hit her a lot faster. She got kind of sloppy. There was a flash fire right as she's dying. I don't even think she necessarily suffered at all, really. I think she died right there from the pills and there was the fire. To me, that's easy. I just don't even think there's a question. She wasn't murdered. This wasn't some elaborate cover up. That's how she died. The other two questions are much more interesting. I'll start with the first one, who she was. Okay, I think she's either Jewish or Romani. I think there are two options. I think she was born in the Nuremberg area in the early 1930s. I think that when the Nazis came to power, obviously they had a lot of policies which were very difficult if you were Jewish or if you're Romani. Romani, more commonly known as gypsies, the people across Europe who've been persecuted everywhere they went, including in Nazi Germany. Many of them were murdered in the concentration camps along with Jews and political dissidents and a lot of different groups. I think at that point she moved west into France, possibly all the way to Belgium. It's also possible that she moved in increments. I don't necessarily know that her family went with her. I mean, one of the really tragic Things that happened during this time period was children were separated from their families. There were a lot of Jewish families, Romani families, who could not afford to move their entire family out of Germany. And so they sent their kids. And there were a lot of these different, almost underground railroad type things run by Catholic nuns or friendly synagogues, or just people in these other areas that, that were sympathetic to what was going on and were moving these children west. It would have seemed safe to move her to France perhaps in 1933, then of course in 1939. And remember, what do you have with her? You've got these radioactive isotopes in her teeth that are showing that she's born in the Nuremberg area. But then as she's getting other teeth, as she gets older, it seems like she's moving west. You have this very unusual combination of the way she spoke and the way she wrote and the languages she used, which almost feel like someone who has no language, has no set identity. Right. So I think she's moving west. I think the war starts. I think that when the Germans turn and go to France, by that point she may already be in Belgium. She may have grown up in Belgium, she may have spent her formative years in Belgium living on those French named streets and growing up there and always thinking about those places. But what I think happened is when the Germans invaded, actually I think she went to England. And if you look at the radioactive isotope map and they have this, if you go to Death and Ice Valley, which is great, it includes England. So it's concentrated mostly in far Western Europe, but it also includes England. Why do I think she went to England? Number one, because the radioacetopes make it a possibility. Number two, because she did speak English though she could have learned that anywhere. Based on one of your emails, I have a theory about R. So remember, there's a town called R and it's a place that she went in between her travels. And it's a place the police could never identify. They thought maybe it's Rome, maybe it's Rotterdam, but they were never able to find in Rome or Rotterdam any evidence of this person's existence. But there's another town named R and I'm going to pronounce it two different ways because I don't know how you pronounce it in England. Reading or reading. So however you pronounce it in England, someone can correct me. So outside of London is this place called Reading. We're going to go with Reading. Was Reading Railroad, right? If you're in Massachusetts.

Alice (60:44)

I always thought it Was reading, but I could be.

Brett (60:45)

Well, it depends on where you are. Right. I really don't know. It's Reading in Massachusetts, so maybe it's Reading in England. Maybe we should go with Redding. Fine. Reading. Okay, so the way it worked, if you were refugee, either Jewish, Eastern European, Romani, whoever, you were fleeing west from the Nazis. If you got across the channel, you first go to London. That's where you start out. But very quickly, you were then moved to surrounding towns to assist the war effort. Right. One of the big places that people were sent was Reading. Redding was a huge center for refugees, immigrants, people fleeing the Nazis. It was an industrial town. Most of the people who were Jewish started in Reading, though. Here's why. I think she managed to be Romani. Most of the people who were Jewish moved back towards London. So they started in Reading, but they made their way back towards London, Whereas the Eastern Europeans tended to stay in Reading. So I think it's possible that Reading is her base of operation. Why do I think this? In addition to that little bit, there's the maps. Okay, so she bought these three maps of Norway, this map over Norway, which is not just like a basic map, It's a much more detailed map than that. And as we learned, one possibility for the things that are written on the map is the way you would have written the price in England in 1970. And that tells me that she planned her trips to Norway, not in Paris, not in Rome, but in this place where she bought those maps. And it looks like she bought those maps in England. So I think her base of operation, R is Reading. I think it's the place that she ended up after the war. So I think the reason she uses all the Belgian stuff, because she's not going to use England, because that's where she's actually from. Right. That's where she actually lives. That's her actual base of operations is. But she has this deep connection to the place that she spent the formative years of her childhood, Belgium. And so she's using these names that she remembers from that time for all these various identification documents. So that's where I think she was from. Now, what was she doing? I think there's two possibilities, Two really strong possibilities. One is that she is in some sort of organized criminal gang. So the Romani people, as most people know, have a stereotype, and it's that they're involved in various frauds. Right. And this is a stereotype. They've been fighting for a very long time. But the stereotype, much like the whole Italian people, are all in the Mafia does have some basis in truth. There have been organized Romani gangs for a very long time. How do I know this? I've prosecuted one when I was in the Eastern District of Virginia. We had one that was running this scam across the country. Very sophisticated scam, but not also where they would buy breast pumps. This is the way the scam worked. They'd go to Target. As soon as Target opened, they would buy the most expensive item in Target, which was this one breast pump that cost like an ungodly amount of money. It's like 800 bucks, right? They'd buy the breast pump, they would then immediately return it and get the money back. But Target had this policy of not marking your receipt because they didn't want people to feel like they didn't trust them. So there was their policy. The second thing they had was their receipts did not. I don't know what the register is. Yeah, I mean, basically it wasn't until the next day that all of these receipts would be organized in the computer, whatever the word is I'm looking for. So these folks knew that for 24 hours they could return that breast pump over and over and over again, get their money back, and the receipt wouldn't show as returned. So they would go from Target to Target, doing this with basically fake boxes that they had bought that looked just like the breast pump box, that had these like parts in it that looked like breast pump parts, but actually worked. So if anybody looked in there, they'd be like, okay, they're in there, right? And they would just return this over and over and over again, just driving from Target to target doing this. And they would make thousands of dollars a day doing this, returning these every single day. This is what they did anyways. So, like, this is a thing that happens. So it's possible she was a part of something like that. And that's why she has all these different identities. And she's moving from place to place doing it. But I don't think that's it. Whether she's Jewish or she's Eastern European or she's Romani or whatever she is. I think she was some sort of very low level intelligence person. She's not a spy. She's not James Bond. Right. She's not Jason Bourne. And frankly, those people aren't James Bond and Jason Bourne. Those people have one identity. It's a deep identity with a lot of background. If they were in Norway, they would look Norwegian or they would have such obvious business in Norway and everyone would know it. They Wouldn't be mysterious at all. It would be like, hey, there's John Smith, here to buy a bunch of fish. He comes here all the time to buy fish. And it just so happens to buy fish where they're having the penguin missile test.

Alice (65:59)

Right?

Brett (66:00)

But everybody would know that he's a fishmonger, right? That's what he does. He would have this, this deep history with everybody there with the same name. And everywhere he'd go, he's establishing his identity. He's not trying to cover up his identity, he's establishing it. Every restaurant he goes to, he signs the same name. Every plane he gets on, he uses the same name. He does this until he's caught or until he needs to change identities, which might happen, but it's not literally happening every other day that he's trying to change identities. But if he was, or she was in this case, like Alice was noting, some sort of low level courier, then what might be important is not hiding their identity, but hiding the trail of their travel.

Alice (66:40)

Right?

Brett (66:40)

That might be much more important than who they are, is where they came from, where were they before they were here. And because she changed her name and used different names everywhere she went, unless you have that notebook with those names in there or those numbers that you can track, you'd never know it. Like, if she had burned that, this would still be a mystery. But we wouldn't have half the stuff we talked about. We wouldn't have any of these false names or any of these false identities because she covered her track so well. It would be really hard to backtrack and follow her, because she's not using the same name. Even on the plane she arrives on or the train she arrives on, she's using a different name. So I think it actually is possible, if not probable, that she was some sort of low level intelligence agent just currying information, going from place to place to do whatever she's supposed to do. And in one of our legal briefs, we talked about a case where exactly this happened. There was the guy who was the spy, and then there was the guy who acted as the go between, who took the hollow nickel down to the embassy.

Alice (67:43)

Right?

Brett (67:43)

I feel like it's much more likely she's someone like that. And I think a lot of possibilities, I think you've already hit on them for what happened. The job could have been up. They could have decided not to use her anymore. The meeting she had could have been with people who were handlers, who were telling her, you're done, we're done, you know we're closing this operation. Don't care what you do after this, but it's not going to be with us. And she's meeting with them. Maybe she's even trying to convince them to let her do this right. What nation she's working for, don't know. Hard to say. There's things that point both ways. But I think probably in the files of some intelligence agency there's some very low level person who fits the general description of the Isdel woman. And that's who she was.

Alice (68:29)

And I think the fact that she's striking to so many people is exactly why she was picked. She spoke multiple languages. She was kind of difficult to place in terms of where she was from. And it may have been as simple as she was striking. She caught someone's eye. It was like she seems unattached. They watched her for a while. She seemed like a woman who didn't have, you know, a family and could speak multiple languages and you couldn't exactly place where she was from. And they thought, you know what, she can carry the mail. And the thing that made her stand out to other people may have been what stood out to maybe a couple naval officers who said, let's use her. She doesn't have enough information to do anything bad. But she's the exact prototype of the type of person we want to be able to carry around mail, essentially.

Brett (69:12)

You know, there's a couple things about her, I think, unfortunately, and I think this woman had an incredibly tragic, unstable life, honestly, whether she was a spy or a criminal or a nobody. I think my description of what happened to her, she was born essentially for the entire formative years of her life, is accurate. You know, it's possible put aside the spy thing. It's possible war is over. She tries to go back to find her family. They're all dead and she's got nothing. And she's just sort of like adrift now. She did something for those 25 years and it was something that gave her the means. I mean, this is why I feel like she was involved in something like this. It was something that gave her the means to travel, to dress well, to have disposable income.

Alice (70:00)

Right.

Brett (70:00)

I mean, she did have some money, she was able to get around. And so I don't know what is in between there, but I think she was doing something for those 25 years. And then it came to an abrupt end in 1970. One thing I'll say about this case, I would, for my own selfish reasons, love to know who she is, But I don't know if I want that to happen because she clearly did not want. I think it's patently obvious she did not want people to know who she was. She didn't leave anything because I think she did take her own life. She didn't leave anything saying who she was. She left no identification whatsoever. She, she had lived her life as a ghost up to this point. And so there's part of me that thinks identifying her is so against her final wishes that I'm not sure that I really want that to happen. Obviously if it does happen, I think it'll confirm or disprove a lot of things we've talked about. But I mean, I think we're moving in a direction where probably eventually she's going to be identified just because of genetic genealogy.

Alice (71:06)

Yeah. And I, and I do think just adding to that tragedy, talking about just who she was as a woman. I think that's exactly right. I think she had a pretty tragic life and I do think she was doing something meaningful for herself. But I don't think she had a lot of connection to people in her life anymore outside of her control because I think she was ripped from her family or the political atmosphere, what have you. But I keep coming back to those spoons because I told the story earlier of how I was gifted these like silver spoons from my husband's grandmother who lived to 104. So these spoons were like 90 years old. Right. They were incredibly old and some of them were missing, but they were like the real silver spoons that you would make like a century ago. And I think she had so little that still tied her to her old life. And the fact that she had those spoons, I think is heartbreaking because I agree with you. I don't think she wanted to be identified. I don't think she felt it made sense to identify her because everyone that she knew was. Was gone. So like, what was the purpose? In some ways, but obviously we are all craving to belong. And there was a time when she did belong to something before it was ripped from her. And for some reason those spoons come back to me. Because to carry around all those spoons I think is because she had no home. I think she did live out of those bags. And I think being a low level courier was not only exciting, but purposeful and meaningful and made her belong even if she didn't know who she belonged to. She may not even have known who exactly she was working for or what the purpose of her specific actions were. But she was part of something greater. Like we all crave when we want community, we crave community or family because we crave to be part of something bigger and more eternal. And whatever she was doing gave her that. It was bigger than herself. It was the bigger than. The sum of all its parts is greater than just the little part that she was doing. But she was getting to do something that mattered. And I think that was likely coming to an end because I don't think she was dying from anything else. She was relatively young, relatively healthy, it looked like, and there was no need for her to end her life, except for kind of the emotional, psychological side of things, which is that there may have been nothing more in her perspective to go on for if she was also ripped from the only family she had left.

Brett (73:35)

No, I mean, I think that's certainly possible and even likely. And if you notice, it feels like if you follow sort of her path over Norway, we start seeing her meeting with people towards the end of it. That's when she's meeting with the guy in the room. That's when she's talking to guy, breakfast. And I just wonder if this was sort of her last effort to get back in the game and she just couldn't. And it was the only thing that gave her meaning. She had nothing else to do. And so maybe she even spent like the last money she had on this last trip around this place that she thought she'd been before and she thought was beautiful and she loved it, and that's where she wanted to see the end of her life. So.

Alice (74:15)

And by the way, I don't think it was necessarily a dramatic end. I don't think she messed up. Some people have said maybe she. She messed up and this was her, like, penance. I don't think actually she messed up. I don't think she did anything wrong. Projects come to an end, especially if you're low level. They have no need for whatever you are doing and it doesn't make sense, much less dramatic. I don't think she screwed up. I don't think anyone was after her. I think they may not even have known this happened to her because she was no longer part of their checklist. I'm sorry, ma', am, your period is over. So they may not even know that her life was ended because they were never going to call her again.

Brett (74:49)

Spy agencies are just giant bureaucracies. I mean, there's some excitement there and, you know, things happen, but they're also just giant bureaucracies and giant bureaucracies. Don't care a lot for the people at the bottom. But look, there are no wrong answers in this case. I mean, there might be vampire hunter, might be wrong answer, but because we don't know. So we're interested in your thoughts, what you think happened here. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspot Gmail.com, let us know, give us some reasons for it, you know, back it up with some evidence, point to some things like we always do. We're always happy to hear new theories. It's funny because think about this case. This is the case that's really hard to do sort of the Occam's razor thing with, right? Because I don't actually know what the quote unquote simplest answer is. The simplest answer might be that she's a low level courier, you know, I don't know. It's usually pretty easy to find the simplest answer, but in this one it's kind of hard to me because you have to account, you have to explain a lot of the stuff she was doing. And it's possible she just was sort of a paranoid person and so she, maybe she was a paranoid schizophrenic. She always thought people were following her and so she changed her name. But nothing else about what she's doing fits with that. You know, she isn't showing any of the signs of schizophrenia that you often see with people that are in the throes of that. So it's hard for me to say that, but we want to hear your thoughts. As I said, if you want to follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all that stuff at Prosecutors Pod, join the gallery. Been a lot of great discussion on the gallery, which is our fan run group page on Facebook. Great place to be. A lot of discussion of this, you guys will enjoy it. But I think that's all we have on the Isdale woman. This has been quite the journey, but can't wait to hear what you guys think about it. Alice, I know we've run a little question.

Alice (76:39)

We didn't do a question last time and neither of us are physically dying

Brett (76:42)

right now, so I know it's such a rare thing. Okay, so this person wants to know. And by the way, if you leave a five star review, you can ask any question you want. So this person wants to know, if you could have prosecuted any serial killers in the world, who would it be?

Alice (77:01)

If we could create any prosecute. Oh, prosecute. I was like, I don't want to create any. Oh really? Any of them. Okay, let's think. I don't Know, because some of them are creepy. Like, I don't want to learn more about John Wayne Gacy. Like, I don't want to know more about. Because those are some of the most disturbing murders I've ever heard of in my life.

Brett (77:20)

I was circling around, buying a painting of his for a really long time.

Alice (77:24)

I know you've told me this, and I don't know why you would do that. That is terrifying.

Brett (77:27)

So once, okay, so I had a guy. I had a guy who did this. He was like a broker. He found John Wayne Gacy paintings, and he would find one every now and then, and he'd email and be like, hey, I got one. Do you want it? And just.

Alice (77:42)

I was always like, is it still for sale?

Brett (77:45)

Do I really want a John Wayne Gacy painting or not?

Alice (77:48)

Like, I don't.

Brett (77:49)

I don't know. It's kind of like drinking beer from skulls like the Vikings didn't do. I've always thought it would be cool, but then it's like, yeah, but it's

Alice (77:56)

like, do you really want a skull? You really want the hand that murdered so many in such vicious ways, in senseless ways, to have painted what is on your wall? So here's the thing. So you guys know that I used to be a performer, and I once did a dance. Like, it was choreographed. I did not choreograph it. Did I choreograph? No, I did not choreograph this one. It was beautiful dance, but it was to Sufian Stevens, John Wade Gacy. And it's a beautiful song. Fantastic song, beautiful song. I mean, the lyrics are very evocative. And it's about John Wayne Gacy, as you can imagine. And usually I can. There's like, kind of like prosecuting. There's like the wall right where it's like, this is your artistic life or this is your professional life. And then there's real life. That particular piece stuck with me. I would wake up with nightmares. I was John Wayne Gacy in the nightmares. Like, I was doing those horrific things. I could not separate it. And, like, neither could anyone else who was doing this piece. And it was just too much. Like, by the end, I was like. The last time I performed it, I was like, this is. I've never been happy to see a piece go. And it was a beautiful piece. It won so many awards. Like, it was a great piece, but I did not. And I usually love all my pieces, especially the artistic ones, and not that one. So not John Wayne Gacy, because he haunted my dreams for a period of time.

Brett (79:11)

See, now I really want to get a John Wayne Gacy.

Alice (79:13)

No, because you're going to freak me out with it. I know what you're going to do right there. So.

Brett (79:17)

So you have to look at it.

Alice (79:17)

Don't do it. Don't. I'll come over and, like, put holy water on it.

Brett (79:20)

Maybe I can get Hannah to do, like, a John Wayne Gacy style.

Alice (79:24)

That I am okay with. It's that his hand is the one who painted it that I'm not okay with because that is just like evil spewing from his hands onto that canvas. And I don't want you to have to have that in your house.

Brett (79:34)

Just the paintings of him as a clown. I mean, it's like terrifying. So terrifying in a dark way. I'll say. I'll say, Lucy Letby, because everybody thinks she's innocent.

Alice (79:45)

Do people really think, I'm sorry, I don't spend enough time on the interwebs.

Brett (79:48)

It's like everything else. She got convicted. She was obviously guilty.

Alice (79:52)

Obviously.

Brett (79:53)

Then, like, all these people who didn't testify are like, I'm an expert and I don't think she did it.

Alice (79:57)

It's like, no, no. She very.

Brett (79:59)

She has.

Alice (80:00)

I didn't even know that was, like, campaign disputed. I don't want to spend my time prosecuting her. She's already been convicted. Because that's an easy case. I guess that's the thing, you know,

Brett (80:09)

people want us to cover it. I'm like, I don't really want to cover it. I mean, that's a sad.

Alice (80:13)

That's too sad. That was a sad. I don't know. I don't know if I can cover babies right now.

Brett (80:17)

I mean, she writes in her diary about murdering.

Alice (80:20)

She does the kids. She says that? Yeah.

Brett (80:22)

No, she talks about, like, is she the Satan or whatever?

Alice (80:24)

Yeah, she, you know.

Brett (80:26)

Yes, you are, because you're killing babies.

Alice (80:28)

Yes.

Brett (80:29)

It wasn't just. She's not just unlucky. She didn't just happen to be there when all these babies were dying and then they didn't die when she wasn't there. Are there other people who I think are responsible for letting her to continue to do what she did?

Alice (80:39)

Sure.

Brett (80:40)

But saying the hospital should bear some responsibility is not the same as saying that she didn't do it. So.

Alice (80:46)

Yeah.

Brett (80:46)

And what's interesting to me is the more people started talking about the hospital might be liable, the more experts were like, maybe she didn't do it. Maybe she.

Alice (80:56)

Absolutely. She absolutely did. Now, they may have been, like, played a part in allowing evil to continue. But yeah, they were not co conspirators in it. She was the one who was killing.

Brett (81:05)

Joe pointed out Jessica looked into this case and was convinced Lucy let me was guilty.

Alice (81:11)

That's all I need.

Brett (81:12)

That's good enough for me.

Alice (81:13)

That's all I need. If Jessica looked into it, then yes.

Brett (81:16)

All right guys. Well, this has been awesome as always. We'll be back next week with new case. I haven't actually decided what's going to be. I've got like a bunch of different things we. I went to lit. It's. I know sixth grade kids.

Alice (81:29)

I'm so sorry.

Brett (81:30)

Recently Alice was there in spirit and

Alice (81:32)

I was about to get on the plane and you guys can appreciate this. One kid threw up and then a second kid threw up. And I looked at Brett and I was like, at this rate, the nanny's going to be throwing up, Mr. Alice going to be throwing up and all four kids are going to be throwing up. And just for the record, I don't even think I told all of this to you. Brett, by the time you landed in Litz, three of the four kids had thrown up, nanny was sick and husband had to go to urgent care. So for once mommy Dara was like on point. But I'm very sorry for. Because I. I jilted you at the gate. I'm sorry.

Brett (82:06)

Oh, it's fine.

Alice (82:07)

I'm sorry. You did have a great time. I would have rather been at Fire and Ice in Liditz, but I was at home with buckets of throw up. There was one night about lots of chocolate. This one. I know you didn't bring any of it back for me. I deserve that. I deserve it. There was the one that night that you were in Liditz right before for the one night you were in lit. It's Britney threw up four times in one and a half hours. And I had to wash four sets of sheets. I ran out of sheets. I was like, that's rough. I don't know what else to do, kid.

Brett (82:34)

I was hanging out at the bar and lit. It's drinking.

Alice (82:37)

You were, you were. You had the better end of the deal. But I did jilt you at the gate. So I'm very sorry about that. Lit. It's is amazing. I wish I were there.

Brett (82:45)

But we got a great case. You're gonna do with them. I'm not.

Alice (82:47)

That's a great one.

Brett (82:47)

Ready to do it next week. So I don't think we're gonna do it next week.

Alice (82:50)

Their artwork is fantastic.

Brett (82:51)

I have Multiple options. And then we'll see what. So there's the Lititz kids case that we covered. There's a case from a country that we've never done, a case round before that I'm thinking about. And then there's an innocence case that we've been circling for a while. So three possibilities gonna be fun, y', all, next week. Or maybe it's gonna be a fourth one that I don't. I'm not even mentioning. So I don't even know. That's how we roll.

Alice (83:19)

That is how we roll.

Brett (83:20)

See what happens if, by the way, you join Patreon for $3 a month, the low price of $3 a month, you'll know for anybody, because we'll recover it. We'll record it live with you maybe in a couple days. Like, I gotta decide fast for the patrons. We're gonna record multiple times this week. So anyway. All right, well, that's all we got. We'll be back with something next week. It'll have something to do with true crime or mysteries or something. Who knows? But until then, I'm Brett.

Alice (83:48)

And I'm Alice.

Brett (83:50)

And we are the prosecutor.

Alice (84:12)

They're like, thank goodness, because Alice is rambling. Can you tell us how you came to call your son Squanto? Yes, this is a long running descriptor of my son, because I think it's been two or three years now. He has a true devotion, and I don't do not say this lightly, nor with any guile. He has a true devotion to Squanto, the man. He has read. He owns approximately seven or eight biographies of Squanto. He's six years old. This started when he was about three, when he first learned about Squanto at his little Montessori school. Sam. And he dresses up like Squanto year round all the time. He has a wooden spade. He eats with the wooden spirit spoon, just like Squanto did. And he just. He. He truly loves Squanto, the man. He knows everything about Squanto. And because he runs around shirtless with a wooden spoon and calls himself Squanto, we call him Squanto. Sam, Pluto tv has thousands of free movies and tv shows.

Brett (86:53)

I swear, if I'm lying, I'm dying.

Alice (86:55)

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Brett (87:06)

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Alice (87:07)

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