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- [00:01]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [00:39]
VRBO Advertiser
Premier hosts on VRBO deliver quality vacation rental stays with fast responses and clear instructions.
- [00:44]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Oh, I had a question and our host replied super quick Premier move. Wish I had a Premier group chat.
- [00:50]
Juliette Cowley (Retired FBI Profiler, True Crime Podcast Host)
They won't even write me back.
- [00:51]
VRBO Advertiser
Book a top rated stay with a Premier host. If you know, give Erbo hi, I'm
- [00:55]
Juliette Cowley (Retired FBI Profiler, True Crime Podcast Host)
Juliette Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the True Crime podcast the Real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. It's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.
- [01:33]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I'm brett. And I'm alice and we are the prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors we continue our look at the murder on Songbird Road. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my astronautical co host Alice.
- [02:36]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Big day. Not just because we're recording, but because finally those of us who doubted the moon landing can be either further in the conspiracy or proven wrong. Today.
- [02:48]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Going back to the moon baby.
- [02:50]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Which one is going back to the moon, baby. To the moon back or to the first time?
- [02:55]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Either way.
- [02:57]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Either way, we're at the moon.
- [02:59]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Yeah, we're not there yet. By the time you hear this, we'll be there. We're not staying this time. We're just doing a drive by. We're gonna say hello and then come back. They're going further than anybody's ever gone before, though. It's like Star Trek or something. Pretty cool.
- [03:14]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
That is kind of terrifying.
- [03:15]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Yeah.
- [03:15]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And I know there are already people who grew up during some devastating launches. I can't actually bring myself to watch them in real time because I'm afraid so.
- [03:24]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We.
- [03:25]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Something's going to happen.
- [03:26]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So obviously the kids wanted to see it, and we wanted to see it. So we paused it for three minutes just because my wife and I watched it on our phone just to make sure it went fine. And they were like, okay, kids, they're getting ready to launch the rocket. So, sorry, kids, if you're listening.
- [03:41]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So it's not just me who has the, like, true, like, fear. And that's not even watch it with my kids. I was just like, I don't know that I can watch it in real time.
- [03:49]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Look, I remember Challenger. And one of the things people always say about Challenger, which is a lie. And you saw this on Twitter today, that most people who saw Challenger didn't see it live. They saw it on replay. That is not true. People say that all the time. You could watch all the launches, and I watched all the space shuttle launches with my mom.
- [04:09]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Watched them in school. They would roll in the cart with the big cart from the library because you had to, like, it was strapped on with, like, that little, like, moving strap. And then they push it in. And then we watched, like, all the launches live.
- [04:20]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Yeah. And I remember watching it with my mom, and obviously it went horribly wrong. And I was confused about what's going on, and my mom's, like, bursting into tears and. Yeah, so that was.
- [04:33]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I was like, is this an effect? Was that supposed to happen? Because I don't know. Because there's lots of smoke when it takes off. And I remember every other launch, I watched after the big pile of smoke at the beginning, which is normal. I would just start tearing up.
- [04:45]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Right.
- [04:45]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I was like, I don't know if that's normal.
- [04:46]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
There was so much. This big rocket, and there's so much fire. And you're like, is that. Is there supposed to be that much fire? You know, this one went fine. And then Columbia was reentry when it broke up. I don't know that anybody was watching that live, but I remember it happening. And I remember there was a lot of coverage that. So anyways, that's all very depressing. It was a good day. So let's get away from the depressing astronaut stuff, because we're gonna be talking about depressing stuff here in a second. Anyway, so let's all celebrate the fact that these American heroes are now, as we record, in the depths of space, which is terrifying to me. We talked about this in Lost Cosmonauts episode. I was talking to my wife about this. I don't know that anything could Prepare you. No amount of training could prepare you for being that far away from Earth and looking back through the viewfinder or the very small window and seeing the Earth the size of the moon because it'd be very small. I can't imagine what that feels like.
- [05:43]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Right. Like my two greatest fears are. Number two, and it's a far. Second is being lost at sea, like not on a boat, just in the middle of the ocean, floating, because it feels like space. And then first is lost in space, like just forever. Those are my kind of two biggest fears. Third is quicksand, probably because I am a 90s child.
- [06:05]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
But, you know, people in the chat keep mentioning Canada. I don't know why. It's not like Canada's ever done anything that has to do with space. So anyways, write in if we're wrong about that. Now, in all seriousness, there is a Canadian hitching a ride on our rocket, which is cool. He's way braver than I am. I wouldn't want to get on that thing. That's what I was thinking. As they kept showing the inside, I was like, I wonder what it feels like as you're waiting for this rocket to take off. It has to be pretty terrifying. So all very brave people and wishing them heroes.
- [06:34]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
All of them.
- [06:34]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
All of them. Okay, so that's enough. Great, uplifting, fun, wonderful things. We are back with our third episode discussing the murder of 11 year old Jade Beasley. Just to catch you up a little bit where we're at. So first episode, we listened to the 911 call. We went through the timeline as presented by Julia Beverly, who was Jade's stepmother. Jade was 11 years old. She was home alone with Julia. According to Julia, she went to Walmart, took about an hour. When she got back, a man dressed in black from head to toe, black ski mask, black gloves. The whole thing is rushing out of the house. Right as she's going inside, he's got a knife, the knife is raised up in the air. Last episode, we listened to a lot of clips of her describe this terrifying encounter. She's left with some cuts on her hand. And then she goes in and she finds Jade dead in the bathtub and she calls the police. The problem with her timeline is later video investigation and cell phone investigation cast a lot of doubt on this. And so we're talking about her interview with the police. And the first part, as I said, that we really got into was the interaction with this man and how she describes it. We went through that a lot last week. This week we're going to start with sort of backing up a little bit her day, how the day went before this encounter, how the trip to Walmart went, and how she described those various things. And we will play some of her comments for you.
- [08:14]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So Julia tells investigators that she works from home for Hyatt. We talked about how this is in the midst of COVID This is December 2020 and the hotel industry. If you remember, back during COVID I mean, now a lot of jobs are remote, but this is in the height of we had no idea what was going on. A lot of people worked remotely and she was one of them. So she does social media responses and you can tell that that's a very portable job. She can definitely do that from home. But in order to do that job, she has to have strong wifi and a good cell signal. And indeed, she tells investigators she has those. This is important, by the way, because of course, there is a digital footprint for her digital footprint both on her cell phone as well as checking in and out of work and being active on her computer or not. If, for example, she lived out in the country with not good WI fi or cell signal, if you had intermittent signals, that may be due to just poor signal rather than her actual movements. But in her own words, she has strong signal and she has strong WI fi, which lends credibility to how much weight you can give in basically her electronic footprint. That we will see. So she works 8 to 6:30 on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays, and 8 to 1 on Wednesdays and Saturdays. We know this murder happened on a Saturday, remember, because Jade spends the weekends with her dad and not by law, stepmother, but essentially a stepmother. Now, Julia says she got off work early on this Saturday. Remember, she's supposed to work until 1 on Saturday. She gets off at 11 on this day, which is about the same time that she tells investigators she goes to the store. Hyatt's record reflected that. That's not quite what happened. So while Julia was scheduled for a break between 9:30 and 9:45, she actually didn't log back in from that 9:30 break until 10:15. But she just logs back on the to essentially request unapproved time off about half an hour later at 11:05. And that was granted two minutes later at 11:07. Essentially that's just saying unexpectedly, I need to take the rest of the day off. And Hyatt was like, okay, it's a Saturday during COVID season, and at 11:07 she completely logs off the system. So basically what we have here is she's supposed to work till one. She basically does no more work. After 9:30 she was expected to be back, but essentially she logs back in really for the purpose of requesting the rest of the day off.
- [10:41]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
You know, this is one of those cases where there are so many little things. There's some big things too. We're going to talk about this, but there are so many little things that you can kind of get lost in just because. Interesting. I feel like a lot of true crime, we spend a lot of time on the little things. People like to argue about the little things because that's kind of where the, where the meat is. It's hard to nail down exactly what's going on. And this 45 minutes that she spends on break is one of those things. So look, she gets a 15 minute break. That seems pretty standard. Use the bathroom, grab a cup of coffee, get back on. 45 minutes is a lot longer than 15 minutes. We're not talking 20 even 25, even 30, which would be twice as long. 45 minutes when you have a 15 minute break is significant. There's a lot of people, including I think the prosecution, who think the crime happened during this period. At some point she realizes I got to log back on. She logs back on. She goes back to whatever, cleanup, organizing, whatever she's doing. She texts her boyfriend, her common law husband, whatever we want to call him, Jade's dad. She text him, hey, when are you getting off? Oh, around one. That's earlier than expected. Then all of a sudden she's asking for this time off and she gets it. And then the rest of the timeline happens. She will say that this 45 minutes was filled with a heart to heart with Jade, which by the way, that's her story. Now. This is one of the problems for Julia. Story changes a lot. Her initial story of the police, if you watch that interview, watch all two hours of it, it's not actually two hours long because some of it's the technician doing some taking pictures and stuff, but it's probably an hour and a half. She never mentions this. She doesn't tell any story about having some long heart to heart. What she says repeatedly is basically, she saw Jade in the morning. She, she had breakfast. Then she goes to work. At some point she decides she's going to go to Walmart. She checks in on Jade, Jade's asleep. There's no discussion, nothing there. About one of the last things I did was I had a 45 minute conversation with her. And it was so meaningful to me. Just all the Things you could imagine is someone's thinking back over their day on this horrible tragedy. When you find your stepdaughter dead, there's nothing about that. But once this comes out and she's got 45 minutes to fill, you either that triggers the memory and she says, oh, yeah, I had a heart to heart with Jade. Which by the way, according to both Jade's mom and Jade's dad would be very unusual. They didn't have a close relationship. You know, there are people who their stepmoms are best friend and because it's a little different relationship than with mom, they actually do have heart to heart conversations and can talk to them. And some of you have experienced that in your own life. That was not the situation here. They weren't close like that. But now she's saying, oh, we had this long conversation and that's why that time was taken up. Because when you're having a deep heart to heart with your stepdaughter, you don't pull away and say, well, I got to get back to work. You have that conversation until it ends. And that's why it took 45 minutes. So this is in some ways a small thing, the fact that her break lasted for so long, but could be a huge thing depending on exactly how you believe this case goes down.
- [13:49]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So she logs off for the rest of the day at 1107, and that's
- [13:53]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
when she says she's going to go to Carbondale to go Christmas shopping. So it has to be Christmas shopping because if she just wanted to go to groceries, she would have stayed in Marion. But she's going to travel all the way to Carbondale because according to her later on, she doesn't say this once again in her conversation with the police, but she's going to say, look, they had some Black Friday deals still going on and so I needed to do some Christmas shopping, so I was going to go do this. And as she's telling the police the story, it's worth listening to because it's pretty detailed. I mean, she can't remember exactly whether she locked the door when she left, but she's pretty sure she did, even though it's open when she got home. This will become a problem for her because there's no sign of forced entry. So if the door is open, then it seems like Jade probably opened the door for whoever it was. Now, that could have happened for a lot of different reasons. The person could have tricked her into doing so, it could have been someone she knew, etc. Etc. But you have to account for the fact that she believes she locked the door and it's not locked when she arrives. She also leaves the dogs in the back, which we've discussed some as well. These were not dogs that were left outside. It was very unusual to leave them outside when you go somewhere. But she specifically remembers, and this goes to the detail in her story, she specifically remembers them barking at her. So she remembers them being in the back. And I think this is important because as you're going to see, there are problems with her story. And the question you're going to be asking yourself is, are there problems with her story because she's lying or just because this was such a traumatic event, she's not really remembering the details? Well, there are a lot of things that she discusses where she seems to remember a lot of details. And one of those is arriving at Walmart and when she tells the story, and you're going to hear it in a second, she specifically recalls getting to Walmart. She recalls where she parked, she recalls checking her phone to see if she had any messages. She didn't. Then she recalls looking in her purse and wouldn't you know it, realizing after a 30 minute drive, she doesn't actually have her credit card. She essentially had taken the wrong purse. So she doesn't get out of the car or go into Walmart. She remembers that she doesn't go anywhere else. She drives straight to Walmart and turns around and comes back. And in fact, the police specifically ask her, did you stop for gas? Well, if she did, or if she stopped at a gas station for anything else, that does not ring any bells for her. She says without equivocation, no, she did not stop for gas.
- [16:25]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And to be totally fair, she doesn't stop to get gas, she just stops at a gas station. But this is really interesting because we talk about this all the time. People's memories fade, they think they went to the Walmart another time. But here she's sure that this is the day because of all the events around it. And she's not talking to the police weeks later, she's talking to them within a couple hours of the police showing up here later that afternoon. So this is not like she talked to the police weeks later and she remembered a different trip to Walmart. It was very specific. And you know why? Because she needed this timeline. It needed to be an hour, enough time to be away. She had to account for that time, the time between when she left the house, logged off this electronic footprint job that she had, and when she calls the Police. And so that's why Carbondale fits perfectly into that timeline. Now she says that when she left the house, Jade was asleep in her room.
- [17:19]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
She changes this part of her story as well. Later on she will tell Murder on Songbird Road that in fact Jade was awake and they had a conversation about her going to Carbondale and she just told her, you can just play in your phone while I'm calling. That's her new story, right?
- [17:33]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So either of those stories honestly kind of interesting. If you just had a 45 minute heart to heart, the heart to heart would have ended around 10, 15 and she's leaving the house around 11:07. So about an hour later, it's not impossible that, you know, a pre teen is falling back asleep after waking up for some breakfast and a heart to heart. But if in fact it was this intense heart to heart, maybe it would be continued on if, as the later story goes, she's awake, why not go Christmas shopping together? But she says that it was no big deal because Julia wasn't gonna be gone for long. She just wanted to do some quick Christmas shopping and she didn't wanna wake Jade in this first telling of the story or send her a text message about where she was. Now, I may buy this story if she were popping across the street to pick up some milk and she'd be gone for five minutes, but we know from this trip she'd be gone for at least an hour just in transit to go to Walmart at Carbondale. That doesn't account for any amount of time she spends in Walmart, no matter how fast that trip is. Even if she runs around, you know, like supermarket sweeps and grabs all her Christmas shopping and checks out because there are no long lines at Walmart and she runs out in 15 minutes, that's still an hour and 15 minutes. That's not a quick trip necessarily. So that is her version of the story and it's not just us telling it. You're going to hear her explain the Carbon Dale part of her story and her timeline here.
- [18:57]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And once again, there are at least four versions of this story. Because I say versions and I don't mean that she's changing it every time. Just when she has the interview, as they did with the person holding the knife, they ask her multiple times. Let's go over this story again. They're trying to see, trying to lock her in on it. Number one, you don't want to just ask her once. You want to get it multiple times, try and jog her memory. If something else is going on. So they ask her multiple times so she can tell it. We will play those for you, at least four of them for you, and talk about them as we go. This is in the timeline of the conversation, the first story of going to Walmart.
- [19:38]
Police Interviewer
All right, can you start from the beginning, what you saw and what happened. I lost to the store in Carbyville. By the time I got to Carveydale, I realized I didn't have my cards with me. I turned around and came back home. Whenever I got home, I saw the front door was open. As I went to go in, he came out and I tried to grab the knife from him. And at that time, just multiple things, just trying to grab him and stuff. Got cuts on my hand. At that point, he just ran off. I ran in the house, saw blood everywhere. I ran to my bathroom to grab my rag. I wiped my hand real quick because it was blue. And I ran to go find Jade. That's when I found her in the bathroom. And I tried to. I touched her. I didn't check her pulse or anything. I couldn't really tell. I saw all those wounds on her. And that's whenever I called 911. And then police showed up after that point. But, I mean, I just. That's all that I know happened.
- [21:19]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Okay, so this is the first time she really tells the story, and she tells the whole story, and it's pretty brief. So we got her going to the store in Carbondale. She mentions Carbondale twice. Pretty short. She goes. She doesn't have her card. She comes back, she has this interaction with the man. She walks in, there's blood everywhere. Unusual thing happens at this point. You walk in and there's blood everywhere. I mean, I think the first thing I do is go look for the child. But she doesn't do that. And she goes. She cleans her hand. She finds her. She's dead. She doesn't have a Pulse. She calls 91 1. So she basically tells her entire story of what happened that day. This is a very short, straightforward version.
- [21:54]
Police Interviewer
And.
- [21:55]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And she only spends a little bit of time on Carbondale. All right, so that's the first story. Do you have anything on that one before I play the second one? Alice?
- [22:02]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
No. It's just, honestly, hard to listen to. Just like I had to stop listening to the 911 call. It's hard to listen to because even in this telling, there's time to think about this. And there's actually an incredible calm in the way she tells this. I think this is relevant as well. Because when you talk to the police, there can be a lot of anxiety around it. An incredibly traumatic thing has just happened. Like this young girl who is essentially a daughter to you. And by the way, you have three other children, so you are a mother to many children. As a parent myself, my first thought is of course my child, but also all my other kids. Like I am now paranoid they're out to hunt all of us. Like none of us are safe. But there's actually an incredible deliberateness and calmness in telling this version of the story to the police, which I, you know, we don't do profiling here because we're not profilers, but there is kind of a chill to this interview that is unlike many interviews that I've participated in or listened to when there has been an incredibly traumatic event, like what seasoned investigators say is the bloodiest scene they've ever seen in Jade's murder. So here's something that keeps me up at night as a parent. And you guys know I have four kids. I'm constantly thinking about them eating good enough food, good enough diets to grow up healthy. Well, our kids are the first generation growing up on ultra processed foods. And the long effects, we're only beginning to understand them. That's exactly why Haya to give parents a real solution in a market flooded with kids vitamins that prioritize candy like appeal over actual nutrition. Some children's vitamins on the market today contain up to 7 grams of sugar per serving and are stuffed with artificial additives and petroleum based dyes. But Haya took the opposite approach. Zero sugar, zero gummy additives. Just clean nutrition. And the crazy thing, kids actually love them. The taste, the experience, all of it. My kids ask for hyavitamins every single day. They were sent these glass bottles that they got to decorate themselves with stickers. So each of them have their own personalized bottles that hold their vitamins. And every night before bed they say, don't forget it's time to take our vitamins. I love that they're the ones reminding me. And and here's something every parent needs to hear. If getting your kids to eat vegetables feels like an impossible daily battle, Haya's new Kids Daily Greens and Superfoods is a total game changer. It's basically chocolate milk stuffed with veggies. It's a greens powder designed specifically for kids that's packed with 55 plus whole food sourced ingredients. Just mix one scoop with milk or milk alternative and watch them actually enjoy something that's secretly fueling their growing bodies. We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order to claim this deal you must go to hiahealth.com prosecute this deal is not available on their regular website. Go to H I Y a H E a l t h.com prosecute and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. So I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately, focusing more on quality over quantity. Just building a wardrobe of pieces that are well made, versatile and easy to reach for every day. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and super soft denim with styles starting around $50. Their spring pieces are lightweight, breathable and effortless. The kind of things you can throw on and instantly look put together. And that same focus on materials carries over into their accessories like their leather bags which I love to gift because they look so incredible and everyone loves them, which are made from 100% hand woven Italian leather and and honestly look way more expensive than they are. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. I love their leather handbags and I've been wearing their quince linen tops non stop. They are my go to this spring because the fabric feels substantial but still easy to wear and they don't cost what I thought quality linen would would. Refresh your spring wardrobe with quints. Go to quints.com prosecutors for free shipping and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com prosecutors for free shipping and 360 five day returns. Quints.com prosecutors Liberty Mutual customizes your car
- [27:01]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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- [28:29]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We're not gonna play much of this particular part of it for you because we're not gonna just play the whole conversation. You should go listen to it. But one thing you're gonna hear a little bit of later is she's asked multiple times to describe the wounds on Jade's body, the knife wounds on her body, which I can only imagine what it would be like to find someone I loved, stabbed, death, that brutal manner. And then the police asked me to describe the knife wounds. I would be like, man, no, I'm not going to talk about that. Like, do an autopsy. I mean, I just, I can't imagine being asked to do that. But she does describe them, and she describes them in a lot of detail. And it's this very detached way she does it. You're going to hear a little bit of that later, but if you decide to listen to this interview, pay attention to that when they talk about that part. Okay. The second story of going to Carbondale.
- [29:20]
Police Interviewer
You said you had gone to Carbondale to get groceries. I was Christmas shopping. Yeah. So that's not where you normally go for groceries? No, I usually shop in town for groceries in Marion. All right, but do you know what time you've left today? I don't know what time it was, honestly.
- [29:41]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [29:41]
Police Interviewer
Not real sure. All right. And were you booking. When was it that you realized you didn't have your cards? When I got to Walmart. Pulled out my purse and I was checking my phone, and that's when I realized I didn't have any of my cards with me. Okay. And then you came back home? Yeah.
- [30:07]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [30:08]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Okay. So a couple interesting things about this. Once again, the detail of this story. Now, it's not like it's super detailed, but she makes These little points. Oh, no, because if I was just going for groceries, I would go into town. I was going for Christmas shopping. That's why I needed to go to Carbondale. And remember, at some point she's going to claim she just misremembered. Oh, I didn't go to Carbondale. I only went 10 minutes down the road to the gas station. That's essentially what she's going to say. But you listen to these details. Oh, I parked. I checked my phone. It wasn't until I got there that I realized I didn't have my cards. I looked in my purse, I didn't have my cards. It's not the most detailed story you've ever heard someone tell, but it has all these little pieces that make it sound like something that she is authentically remembering and describing as what she did only a few hours before on this day. Any other thoughts on that before I go to the third one? I know you have so many thoughts, but you're keeping them inside.
- [31:07]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Now, let's hear the third one and
- [31:08]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
then third story of going to Carbondale.
- [31:13]
Police Interviewer
When you went to Walmart, did you go into Walmart? No, I didn't even get out because that's when I went to check my phone. I realized I didn't have any of my cards with me. Okay, but you were in the parking lot. Yeah, I just. Parking lot. Okay. All right.
- [31:33]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
In which warmer was that?
- [31:34]
Police Interviewer
I'm sorry? Yeah, Carbondale. And you were there to go Christmas shopping? Y.
- [31:42]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
All right. You know about what time you left to go to the car window?
- [31:50]
Police Interviewer
I'm not sure, honestly, what time it was.
- [31:53]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [31:55]
Police Interviewer
Did you go anywhere else before you went to Walmart? When you left the house? Just to Walmart. Just to Walmart.
- [32:07]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
She had to stop and get gas or anything like that.
- [32:10]
Police Interviewer
Okay.
- [32:15]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Just trying to think of a time frame that this guy may have showed up. Let me just try to see what that window is. So you pull into Walmart, realize you don't have your cards, you say you checked your phone.
- [32:31]
Police Interviewer
Just see if I had messages or anything, and then turned around and went back.
- [32:37]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay. Kind of had one of those forgot my card moments. Yeah, I had one of those the other day and just went back, and that's when.
- [32:46]
Police Interviewer
Okay. Yeah.
- [32:48]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So this is really interesting because in this third time. So we've said that she's very honestly calm, cool, and collected in the way she's talking. But the investigators, they don't know at this point about the gas station at all. So they're not fishing, they're not trying to do a gotcha moment. They're trying to understand this. And so in every confirmation, they ask back to her what has already been told to her. This is not feeding her lines. They're asking her to confirm. So you went to Carbondale, you're sure it's Carbondale? Yes. You went there to Christmas shop? Yes, to Christmas shop. Did you go get gas? No. And each of these is another opportunity for her to revisit whether her memory has lapsed. So this is the third time. And you can imagine when someone asks you something multiple times, even if you're completely sure, sometimes if you're asked the same thing over and over, you pause for a moment. Cause you're like, am I sure what? Because you are asking me multiple times. There is actually no pause and no even a glimmer of self doubt. And in her confirmations, her confirmations are immediate and they are assured in confirming this story, which like we've said already is pretty detailed and there are hooks in the memory that if this had really happened, she is completely sure that this was the day and this is what happened.
- [33:58]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
It's really hard to explain this away when you listen to it because once again, it's literally that day. I know a traumatic thing happened, but it's literally that day. They are not pressing her. This is not a hostile interrogation. They're not tricking her. They didn't do a polygraph where they asked her if she went to Carbondale. And now they're like, and you lied in the polygraph? Tell us the truth. They're giving her opportunity after opportunity to correct her story. You know, the detail of why she was there, where she was, the fact that she parked, then she checked her phone, then she realized her credit cards. One of the cops even makes a joke. Yeah, I had that happen to me yesterday. Did you get gas? No, I didn't. I didn't get gas. Didn't stop anywhere else. And it's just the fact that later on she's going to completely change this story. Not she actually, she only went to Walmart in Marion and it was only 15 minutes away. And that gives her a very narrow window to commit this crime. It's not that that's going to happen. She is repeatedly telling them this. They did not put it in her head. They weren't like, did you go to Walmart and Carbondale today? She's the one who offers that is where she was. And she repeatedly reaffirms that that's where it was. And it's just when you listen to her tell the story. There is nothing. There is no doubt. Nothing comes across as she's not sure.
- [35:25]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
No pause even to think.
- [35:27]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Just telling the story. You know, he's talking about just trying to figure out the timeline of exactly where you were. Nothing is happening as they tell this story. That is somehow twisting her arm or getting her in a position where she's misremembering and confusing. Oh, actually went to Walmart yesterday. What am I thinking? No, none of that is happening. She is repeatedly reaffirming this story with details.
- [35:51]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Nor is this an antagonistic conversation. It is incredible. I mean, measured, like the investigators are almost apologetic. We're asking this again. We're just trying to figure out when this guy came in. Because, I mean, if you're listening to this as they are, there are lots of holes and this is not adding up. But in no time do they start slamming the table and saying, look, this doesn't make sense. You're telling a lie. Tell us what's going on. They are still very much in relaxed conversation with her.
- [36:17]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And I'll say this, the Viper Pit podcast played both their conversation with Michael, Jade's father, and with Jessica. I believe her name is Jade's mother. Exact same type of conversation, exact same way of approaching those people asking questions, sort of letting them answer the questions because obviously they're doing the right thing here. I mean, people always talk about rushing to judgment and tunnel vision. I mean, they've got someone who's telling them it's this very specific person who did this. They're keeping an open mind. They're questioning everybody because they don't know. I mean, for all they know, that person could be Jade's mom in disguise. We did that case not too long ago. Dan, forget his last name. The guy was a baseball player, right? He dresses up all in black, hides in his in laws house, and then murders them for money. The man in black could be someone Jade knew or even someone she was related to. So I don't think they're close minded about this at all. And they're asking all the right questions and they're letting Julia tell her story and they're going to ask her for a fourth time. So this is the fourth story.
- [37:26]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
They've expanded the search area. Can you start? I hate to ask you to kind of relive everything again. Can you start from when you checked out from Wyatt or Hyatt? I'm sorry,
- [37:40]
Police Interviewer
Clocked out, went and got dressed.
- [37:43]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
And how did you clock out? I'm not familiar with It.
- [37:46]
Police Interviewer
It's just like a.
- [37:47]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Just kind of like, off, basically.
- [37:49]
Police Interviewer
Yeah. Log off type scene.
- [37:50]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [37:51]
Police Interviewer
I clocked out, went, got dressed. Didn't take me real long to get dressed.
- [37:57]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
And where did you get dressed at?
- [37:59]
Police Interviewer
In the bedroom, My bedroom. Then went, checked on Jade. She was sleeping, and then I left.
- [38:08]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay, can you describe when you left? Because with expanding the search area, if we find any tire tracks or anything like that, we need to know, like, did you back out this direction? Did you just back all the way out this way? If we find tire tracks, we know whether or not they're yours or possible suspect's vehicle.
- [38:29]
Police Interviewer
Whenever I back out, I always go out and then head towards the ball field.
- [38:36]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay, so you back all the way down the driveway?
- [38:39]
Police Interviewer
Yes, all the way down and then onto the road? Correct.
- [38:41]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay. Okay. And just tell us which way you go. Like, where you turn, stuff like that.
- [38:47]
Police Interviewer
Go down to Quarry League, turn right, follow that all the way till Norman, turn left, and then get on the interstate. No, it's not Interstate Highway 13.
- [39:01]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay. Okay. And then you take 13 all the way to.
- [39:04]
Police Interviewer
Then it went all the way to Carbondale.
- [39:06]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay, and then where do you turn at in Carbondale?
- [39:10]
Police Interviewer
And turn right. Right by Taco Bell and McDonald's and then turn again into Walmart.
- [39:17]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay, and which part of the parking lot did you park in?
- [39:22]
Police Interviewer
Not in the front, like, more towards, like, the middle. A little closer to. To the back.
- [39:26]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [39:27]
Police Interviewer
You know which side or were you in the middle, like the building or on the food side or the. It's probably the main side. I don't think I went to the food side. I'm not real familiar with Carbondale's setup. I want to say it was. It was more towards the main side of it, though.
- [39:48]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [39:48]
Police Interviewer
All right.
- [39:49]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
And you went to Carbondale for Christmas shopping and then run us through from there.
- [39:56]
Police Interviewer
So once I got there, when you just check my phone real quick, see if I had any messages, that's when I realized I didn't have my cards. Sorry. Had you actually parked in a parking spot? Yes. Okay. Parked and then just grabbed my phone out of my purse, and that's when I realized I didn't have my keys in the. There. My keys, my cards. And then I turned around and then came back. Did you come back the same way that you went? Okay. All right. And then when you pulled into the driveway, you didn't recognize any vehicles or. No, there's nothing there. No cars. Didn't see anybody until I got closed doors. What about a bicycle or motorcycle or Anything like that around? No.
- [40:47]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Okay, so something that really stuck out to me. So incredible amount of detail. Not only incredible amounts of detail of exactly where she's parking within Walmart, but her specific actions from the time she parks the car to the time she leaves back out all the way to the way that her tire tracks are moving. I mean, this is incredible specificity. But what really stuck out to me in this fourth retelling and is when she drops a line that is meant to explain away any inconsistencies with her story about where she parked at Walmart is she says, I'm actually not that familiar with the Carbondale Walmart. And why that's important is you can imagine if this is a store she goes to all the time. This may just be another day that she goes to Walmart in Carbondale and she's mixed it up with the day that Jade is murdered. But in fact, she goes there so infrequently that, that she doesn't really know the layout. And so this is an anomaly in her shopping habits. And an anomaly would stand out, and this is not mistaken, to be another day than the day that Jade was murdered. That one line, if I were in the room, I'd have to pick my job off the floor and put on a poker face.
- [41:56]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
That one line may convict her. Yeah, we talk about this sometimes, that you have cases, they have all kinds of evidence, but there's one thing that just stands out to you and you've nailed it. And number one, tremendous police work. You know, this last time they get her to go into so much detail to recount the exact way she went. She even corrects herself several times to go to the interstate. Oh, not the interstate, the highway. Look, I didn't have my keys, my keys. I didn't have my cards. Things that just feel so real. But you've nailed it. Because the whole point of what she's going to have to say later is she was confused. It was another day. She's transposing the days. Of course, it wasn't that day she went to Walmart, but it's not the place she goes all the time. I mean, you've nailed it. And the fact that she just so happens on this day of all days to misremember when she went to a place that she hardly ever goes to in incredible detail in a way that just so happens to account for all her time is so damning. And it is hard for me to praise the police enough and how they handle this interview and how they walked through this with her, just incredible. Because if she was telling the truth, they would be able to lock it down and eliminate her as a suspect. They would track her phone. You know what? She's telling the truth. She did turn on the Corey League. She did get onto. And wouldn't you know it, we pulled the camera footage from the middle section of Walmart. There's her car. We're good. She didn't do it. Everybody, let's find the man in black. Right? We have eliminated her because they have gotten her to tell this story. And I'll tell you what else. To the extent you think they were just trying to frame her, railroad her, well, they did something that you wouldn't think you do. They've got her saying she went to Walmart three different times. And they keep giving her the opportunity to say, you know what? I'm mistaken. I didn't go to Walmart and correct it. They keep giving her that opportunity. She never takes it. And that feels like some investigators who are looking for the truth, not looking for a frame job. Oh, we got her confused now. Lock that down. Don't ask her any more questions. We don't want her to correct things. And you'll see that sometimes. Remember when we did West Memphis 3? One of the criticisms of the way that interview went is once they got Jesse Misskelley to say the magic words, that was it. Interview's over. We got in the side of things,
- [44:17]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
didn't want to contradict it. Right.
- [44:19]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Don't ask him any more questions.
- [44:20]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I mean, honestly, if you wanted to convict her because Carbondale had to do with it, leave it or suggest something, you sure? So they suggested one time, but it honestly wasn't a suggestion. It was confirming the story. You say that you ended up at Carbondale anywhere along the way, such as gas, because like you said, you were only going shopping. What are other things that you may stop that you may forget getting gas, because that's usually not part of your agenda and just something you do because you need to fill up with gas. They didn't suggest that. Again, this was not them trying to feed some line. Are you sure? What about. They didn't name the place. They didn't say, are you sure you didn't pull up to a pump, but then think better of it and go. None of those things. I mean, there is really no suggestion she is driving all of this narrative. They are asking back with her own words, confirmation, allowing her to either confirm, change her story or think about it again, because again, it's a stressful situation. And note what we're doing when we're picking apart this interrogation. Really it's not an interrogation, an interview we're not focusing on. Oh, she never even reacted or seems teary eyed when they say we're going to expand the search maybe sure, you can have whole entire profiles about how she doesn't react to the fact that they're talking about looking for the murderer who's still out there, who might have come to get her. There were two people in that house. Maybe they just got Jade because she was there and they really were coming for her. None of this, she doesn't react to it. But we're not focusing on that because people can truly have very different reactions and traumatic situations. But what we're focusing on is that black and white here it's her story of what just happened a couple hours ago with 4, 5 different times of confirmation in order to make sure the story's right. And she doubles down, triple down, quadruple down, quintuples down on her story over and over. So it's really hard for her to walk back this later. We're starting here because there, there is so much more that is honestly weird about her interview. But that's not where we're starting. This is not meant to be. Some like fantastical, let's wave it all around. Her words in and of themselves are
- [46:21]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
pretty shocking and we've talked about this. But the reason this is such a big deal, she didn't go to Walmart. She didn't drive all the way to Carbondale. She didn't park there. Check her phone, realized she didn't have her cards. Video recovered by the police proved that. Instead she drove to a Huck's gas station less than 10 minutes away from her home, where she is seen on camera disposing of something in the trash can and then driving away. She wasn't gone for the hour that it would have taken her to drive to the Walmart and then drive back. She was gone for 17 minutes. Her description of returning home is also inconsistent with the evidence. According to Julia. She got home, got out of the car and walked to the house. And you've heard this multiple times now her describe what happened, where she encountered the intruder. Immediately after she rushes to the bathroom. She gets a towel for her hand. Then she finds Jade. Then she's calling 911 after briefly checking her pulse. But her cell phone will show number one, will confirm she didn't go to Carbondale and will also show that she arrived back at the house a full 31 minutes before calling the police.
- [47:34]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Real quick note here. Her story that you just heard, what did she do in her version of the story when she stopped and parked at Walmart? She checked her phone. So in her own story, the phone is with her in the car the entire time. This is relevant, of course, because at this time they do not have her cell phone data. They will get it later and they will see she doesn't go to Carbondale. But she cannot walk that back either because she herself is not saying, I left my cards and my phone back there, so of course you're not going to see my phone in Carbondale. None of that happens. She says herself in this five retellings of going to Carbondale, that the reason she finds out she has no money in order to go into Walmart because she has to account for that time. She can't have been there longer than an hour. Is checking her phone.
- [48:20]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And look, we've said this before, criminals are not geniuses. Planned murders have massive holes in them. I don't think anyone thinks if Julia committed this crime, she planned it. If this crime happened, it happened in sort of a rage. And then she had to do the best she could to cover it up. And she made mistakes. And one of them was not leaving her phone at home. Because if she had left her phone at home, much better argument, you know, maybe they still catch her on the cameras, but she couldn't know that, that they were going to find ring cameras. And there's nothing you can do about that. She couldn't know that the police were going to do an incredibly thorough job and basically pull every camera from her house to the Carbondale Walmart and then spend untold amounts of time watching those videos until they caught literally like the brief second of her car speeding past a house on Corey Lee Road. Or until they found the Hux video, which she'll later claim her mama let her claim that she alerted them to, which isn't true. They found this Hux video with her throwing something away in the trash can. She couldn't know that, but she could have left her phone, but she didn't think about that. I even think it's possible when she went to Hux, she really did notice that she didn't have her credit cards, that she really did intend to throw something away and then get some gas and maybe build the story around that. But then she didn't have her credit cards and so she has to go back. Because as we've said many times, I truly believe that in every Lie. There's truth. And that could be one of the truths in this story. Her biggest problem, her story that she tells fits the timeline perfectly, is the perfect alibi. It allows plenty of time for someone to show up, go into the house, murder Jade, for the blood to dry, for the water in the bathtub to be clear, because Jade's been in that bathtub so long that she's died and she stopped bleeding, and the water has gone down the drain somehow, and now the water is clear. There's plenty of time for all that to happen, and that person just is leaving just as she gets there. But the reality of the story, proven by both the videos and the cell phone, is utterly inconsistent, not only with what Julia tells us, but with what would have had to have happened if the intruder killed Jade. It is a terrible timeline. For the man in black to have done this, he would have had to have arrived at the house, got inside, committed the crime, and come running out all in about 17 minutes. That's how long she was gone. 17 minutes. And then Julia would have had to have just hung around in the house or sat in her driveway checking Facebook while this person just hangs around in the house while the blood's drying and her stepdaughter's body is growing cold in a bathtub with running water in it. Which, by the way, the first responders all say that the bathtub was plugged. I can't emphasize enough for you how important that is. If the bathtub was plugged, it should have been overflowing by the time she's calling 911, but it's not. And that makes you think that whatever cleanup happened in that bathroom, another mistake she made was she left that water running and she left that bathtub plugged. And by the time her. Because, remember, she's on the phone with 911 for 12 minutes at least. First responders, it takes them that long to arrive, they don't find the bathtub overflowing. They find it slowly filling up with water. All that has to be happening, and you have to account for this. 31 minutes from when her phone arrives back at that house to when she calls 911.
- [51:57]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
The math just ain't mathing.
- [51:59]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
It ain't mathing, and we're not even done.
- [52:07]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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- [53:58]
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Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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Juliette Cowley (Retired FBI Profiler, True Crime Podcast Host)
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Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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- [54:32]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Now let's punctuate this with the one moment in the entire interview. Two hours of interview, say an hour and a half to be generous to her with discussions about finding the dead body of a girl you loved, discussions about stab wounds all over her body, what they looked like. Did it look like somebody stabbed in and out or did they kind of wiggle the knife around? Those are the kind of questions these detectives are asking her and she's answering them with this cold, clinical discussion. But there's one time she shows emotion. And I'm going to play that for you now.
- [55:09]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Like this. Was it kind of off to the side? Because, you know, some people swing lower direction, some kind of go from the side, some's over like this. Which way do you think it was?
- [55:20]
Police Interviewer
From what I could see on her back, it definitely looked like it.
- [55:23]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay. It was definitely up and down like this. Was it kind of real quick? Was it like go in, kind of wiggle a little bit? I mean, which way did you do it?
- [55:30]
Police Interviewer
I didn't do this.
- [55:32]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay, here, here's, here's the thing. Okay, we, we, we, we, we know, we know you've been through a lot. Don't tell me that I did this to her. I did not do this to her. But there's some things that we're going to have to out. Okay, stop right now.
- [55:54]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Well, then help.
- [55:55]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Help to help us further. Then help us through it. No. Okay, help us through it. I'm not talking anymore. And you think I did this to her? I am not talking to you anymore. She was not my blood daughter, but
- [56:12]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
she was still a daughter to me.
- [56:14]
Police Interviewer
Okay,
- [56:18]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
I'm gonna let you talk to her. Okay, I'll step out.
- [56:23]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
There you go. She's fine discussing the angle of the. The knife, whether it was going up or down. She's fine talking about that. But the moment she's accused of doing it, that's the moment when the emotions come out. That's when she starts screaming and wailing and being hysterical. Because the thing that she has feared the entire time she's been having this conversation has come. Her story that she's telling them is not working. They now think she's done it and she is reacting accordingly.
- [56:49]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And it was chilling. It was a 0 to 100 within a second. Like, if you, you have to listen to it a couple times to kind of catch the investigator, you can miss it almost in the way the investigator basically slips it in, says, okay, when you did it. And that's when she goes from 0 to 100.
- [57:04]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And there's no confusion on her part. She was fighting.
- [57:08]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I missed it.
- [57:09]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
They were going to accuse her.
- [57:10]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I missed it the first time. I had to rewind because I was like, why is she screaming all of a sudden? Because I actually missed it because her scream came so close in time to honestly, what could potentially be a mistaken pronoun the way the questioning is going.
- [57:26]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
How did you see it? How did you see It. How did you think you did it?
- [57:29]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Yeah, because it was. Does it look like the slashing was coming from an angle? Did it look like it wiggled out? You know, when you did it? I mean, when he did it, you can imagine it's a wait. You can imagine the response would rather be confusion rather than zero to this, like wailing and gnashing of the teeth, which matches the wailing and gnashing of the teeth that you heard on the 911 call for 12 minutes as well. Also note within this, you know, some of the things that she says within the crying, they aren't really said in the rest of the interview. She says she was like a daughter to me at the time. Familiarity, love. Those sorts of things don't really come out except in this type of hysteria, which is very interesting. And previously we were talking about the clinicalness of the 104 stab wounds and how they were wiggled out of her like a daughter body, finding her daughter, these sorts of things. None of that is what triggers her to talk about Jade as a daughter. So you've heard from Julia's own words what she describes that day in much detail. But the thing is, her story doesn't make sense, even if you're just listening to it cold, like we all did, nor does it match the evidence that we have. So there's video recovered from the Hucks gas station, and it shows Julia pulling up to the area of the gas pumps. So like a gas station, you can imagine there's like the pavilion, I don't know, let's call it the roof part. And then there's like different stalls across. And in this one, the farthest stall from the angle of the camera is where Julia ultimately pulls into with her gray Pathfinder. So it's the farthest you can zoom in and see the video. But instead of pulling up to one of the two pumps, you can imagine what most gas stations look like. There's usually two pumps on one plane, and in between the two there's trash can, that sort of thing. And that's exactly what you have here at the Hawks. So her car does not pull up to one of the pumps where you would imagine you would park even if you were going to throw something away, if you're in fact getting gas, it stops with the front driver door right next to the trash can bin that sits between two pumps. And then some seconds pass by. Nothing happens. You can't really see what's happening in the car, but the door doesn't open. No one comes out. No One's reaching for a gas pump to stretch it over to the car. But after several seconds pass by, you see the door crack open and a foot come out, as if the person is just stepping halfway out, but half their body maintains in the car. And a hand drops a bag or some sort of package, not super large, like one hand is holding it into the garbage bin. And without fully stepping out or reaching for a gas pump or anything like that, the hand and the leg go back into the car, the door immediately slams shut, and the car drives away. That's what you see in this video, which you can see for yourself as well. So you can't see very well what it is, but appears to be a bundle of something. Julia will later say that as she's driving to Carbondale, her gas light came on and she's decided to go to Hucks. Now, that is believable. But remember in the interview that she gave, the police actually anticipated this happening, this being a regular thing that can happen, and asked on more than one occasion, did you go anywhere on the way to Carbondale? Did you stop for gas? And multiple times she confirmed that she had not, in fact, stopped anywhere because she didn't know this video existed. By the way, neither did the police at the time. But when this video resurfaces, it's really interesting to note that she doesn't actually deny that it's her car and say, that's not me. I don't know what you're talking about. She then incorporates it into her story. I forgot. I'm so sorry. The gas light. You're right. The gas light did come on. I did in fact, stop for gas. Now, you might wonder then if her gaslight came on, why didn't she pull up to the gas pumps? Because that's usually where you get gas. She says that she was waiting to turn and she realized she didn't have her credit cards, so she decided to pull into Hucks anyway to throw away some diapers that she had. Now she no longer forgets that her cards are, you know, what happened to the whole Carbondale that she's not that familiar with. And she knows exactly where she parked at the Carbondale Walmart. Now she's saying as she's turning in, before she even gets there. It has to be before she gets there. That's what's interesting. She can't have parked yet because she has to explain why she doesn't park in front of a pump. She says she realizes her cards are not there. But notice previously when she was talking about not finding her cards in the Walmart. What does she do? Does she reach for her cards as she's driving and about to park? No, no, no. She actually parks completely before she notices the cards. And it's really not that she's looking for her cards. She looks at her phone and realizes her cards. So this in and of itself is interesting because if you look at the footage, she'd have to be digging through her purse as she's turning in. Why not just park and then look for your cards?
- [62:20]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Okay, this is one where in order to believe there's so much. There's so much in this case that it's. It's just like, I don't know how you believe this woman. And we talked about Carbondale and Walmart and everything else, and this, in some ways, is just an interesting little incident. It's not like you have to think much about this. You don't have to really even know about this to decide whether she's guilty or innocent. But it is interesting because her story, it's such a perfect example of how she has to create a post hoc story to cover up something that happened. Because I think we've probably all been in a situation where we pulled up to a gas pump or pulled into a store and realized we didn't have our cards. And, like, and, you know, I talked about yesterday being at the pizza shop, and the guy comes in is like, I forgot my cards. Can I tap? And I was like, I wonder what that is? And then he taps and he pays, Right? So you can perfectly imagine this happening. But the fact she didn't pull up to a pump is such an issue because of course, you would see your gas lights on. You'd be like, oh, man, I need to stop for gas. You'd pull in, drive up to the pump, maybe check your phone. As she says, at Walmart, look in your bag, See you don't have cards. Be like, man, forgot my cards. While I'm here, I'll throw away some trash. I could imagine that happening, but that's not what happens. She pulls up immediately to that trash can. She went to that trash can to throw something away. So she has to tell the story about being at the turn signal. She's in the turn lane at the light, and for some reason, that's when she realizes she doesn't have her cards. And she decides even though she's on empty and even though she's just about to go home, instead of just popping a ue, going home and getting your credit Cards, which would make sense to me. And then throwing away the diaper in the trash can that's sitting there right outside your house, or in your house, even. She decides to go ahead and stop at Huck's with her gaslight on just to throw away a diaper. We'll get to what the bag looks like in a second. But even that part of the story is wild. And I'll say this, I feel bad for her mom, who is an absolute advocate for her and her innocence and totally believes that her daughter is innocent. There is a jail phone call where she's talking to her daughter and she's like, yeah. You know, they say you go to Hux and you pull up to the trash can, throw something away. Of course, you pull up to the gas pump and then you throw something away because you're there. And it's like, no, nope, that's not what the video is going to show. And Julia's, like, just sitting there, silent on the phone, not saying a word, because her mom obviously just believes she's innocent. And this cockamamie story about her pulling up to the trash can, of course she didn't do that. And then you look at the video, and she did.
- [64:56]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So, putting aside all the major problems of her story, the major problem for Julia is that the failure to go to Carbondale not not only destroys her story, as Brett pointed out earlier, it completely destroys her timeline. Now, instead of working with an hour and some odd time, we're working with 17 minutes. And of course, what does Hux do? We have it on video. And it gives her the opportunity to dispose of evidence.
- [65:22]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And unfortunately, the police don't find out about this until four or five days later. They go there, they search the trash can, they search the dumpster, they send a team to the landfill, and they're digging through, trying to find something. They find, like, a few broken knives and some other stuff. But number one, even if those knives were involved, the chances of getting evidence off of them, very slim. So they do their due diligence. I mean, they try as hard as they could. But because Julia had lied to them the day of and said she went to Walmart and they didn't realize she went to Hucks until much later, recovering whatever it was she threw away becomes impossible. Possible. I want to talk about this bag, though. And this is like, a minor issue about the diapers.
- [66:04]
VRBO Advertiser
Yeah, exactly.
- [66:04]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I want to talk about the diapers.
- [66:05]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I really do want to talk about the diapers. We are in full Huggies land, right?
- [66:10]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I think we oh, we got you, baby.
- [66:12]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We got your baby. Between the two of us, I feel like we are as close to diaper experts as you can get anywhere. So let's talk about diapers. So we'll talk about this package. And she says that it's to have diapers. No, no judgment, because I've even lived with some people who are disgusting about taking out their trash and that whole thing. She has a Nissan Pathfinder, so it's like a smallish suv, not impossible to change a diaper in there. And I've changed a lot of kids in my how to see bed of the trunk, right? That's like, it's grooved in, so it's hard for them to crawl out. So look, I have changed a lot of blowouts in my time in my car, or really it's just blowouts, actually. And I really never change a pee in my car because I only change it in a desperate situation. If, like, poo is coming out and their clothes are disgusting. That's the only time I'm going to go through the effort of changing them in my car. And if it's like a poo explosion, which we have a lot of at our house, I immediately throw that diaper away. It's not going to sit in my car because, you know, what about diapers, Brett? They stink. That's why there's an entire industry of selling diaper pails and specific diaper trash bags, because diapers stink. The heck, man, I can leave lots of things in my car. You joked about how you didn't know you'd been robbed because your car was messy. You can smell a diaper. You can smell a diaper from a mile away. I know because I just took out a trash bag full of diapers and I gagged as I walked out to the trash can because it smelled so badly for her to have an entire bag of, I would assume to be pretty messy diapers. Because if your normal practice is just to change some slight pee pee diapers, I don't know, like, where's your home? Where's your changing pads? Like, this seems like a strange thing to do. Sorry. I can rant all day long about what type of diapers are in your house. Well, in your car.
- [67:55]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Once again, why is there funny? Because you got to take into account a lot of different things. And she takes that into account, Alice. She doesn't say, I had a bag full of diapers. She says, one or two diapers that I had, you know, which is a much more believable story. I changed the baby and oh, man, I forgot to take the diaper out and I got in the car and I could smell it for some reason. I was going to drive all the way to Carbondale with it instead of just immediately stopping and throwing it away and then going to Carbondale. But, man, when I realized I had to stop at Hux, I was going to throw it away anyway. Look, you can't tell what's in that bag.
- [68:29]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
You really can't.
- [68:30]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Her defenders want to say it was small to fit in the palm of her hand. No, it's not.
- [68:34]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
No, it's not.
- [68:34]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
No, it's not. She can hold it one hand. But I will tell you this, I have put a lot of diapers in Walmart packs. I have done that. And when you put a diaper number one, Yeah, I mean, it's about the
- [68:45]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
size of your fist, right? But usually it's about the size of your fist.
- [68:48]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
If I have a poopy diaper in particular, I'm trying to package that bad boy up. I'm not leaving it wide open. I'm trying to get as small as possible, right? And it's very easy with a diaper to just basically you take it off, you fold it in half and then you use the straps that hold the diaper on to like make it into a little package. And then you throw it in the trash can, right. Or you put it in a bag. Say. She didn't do that. Either way, if you put a dirty diaper into a Walmart bag, it will be, I will call it pendulous will be the word I will use to describe it, which basically means you're going to have the diaper bag and there's. It's going to go straight down and the diaper is going to stretch. The bag's a strong word, but it's going to make it sort of like a straight down profile because the diaper is heavier than the bag. And so it's going to cause that profile of a straight down type situation. And if you got out with a diaper or two in your bag like she did and you threw it away, that's what it would look like. Pendulous. That is not what the bag looks like. I can't tell you what's in the bag, but the bag at the bottom has a very clear, straight edge. It looks as though something long and straight is at the bottom of that bag and it's making the bag not be pendulous but be stretched wide.
- [70:03]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
It almost looks like almost boxy, almost Boxy, almost boxy. And it's worth noting because I just said that one diaper, depending on how much stuff is in it. But one diaper is approximately the size of a fist. Right. And so what you see though, while we can't perfectly see the bag, you do see a hand holding it. So at least you have a point of reference of a hand. No matter how big that hand is, the bulge of the bag below the hand holding it is factors larger than the fist holding it at the top. So even if this were a bag of diapers, which it doesn't appear to be, it looks to be a dozen diapers, not one or two diapers.
- [70:45]
VRBO Advertiser
A package of diapers.
- [70:47]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
A package. A package of diapers that's still in the package, which is square, by the way. And it's when you can imagine what a grocery bag looks like, it's stuffed to the max. Like you see the whole shape of the bag puffed out. It is not, as you say, Brett, a pendulous, you know, where, where there's like slack in the bag. It's not stretched to the max where it's like you see it ripping at the seams, but you see the entire shape of the bag.
- [71:13]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And Ruth in the chat describes this teardrop shape that when I say pendulous, maybe pendulous is a bad description. If you put a diaper in a Walmart bag, it's going to be teardrop shaped. That's what it's going to look like. It's not going to be squared off at the bottom. And you see that. And I don't know if it's a pair of flip flops or a knife wrapped in a towel that could be at the bottom of that, making it look square, but it looks square. Can't tell you what's in it. Don't know for sure. But look at it yourself and tell me whether or not that looks like a Walmart bag with a single or two diapers in it. Okay.
- [71:48]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And there's more, don't worry, there is going to be more. And can I, can I just note though, this really is very good police work, there are obviously a ton of gas stations and countless security cameras at different businesses between this and Carbondale or this and anywhere else when you have no idea where they're going. The fact that they did recover this within a couple of days is actually really good police work because you may be looking at this and saying, well, why didn't they get this right away? Just take a 10 mile radius of your house how many different security cameras? If today you needed to go out and get every security footage within a 10 mile radius of your house, it would take you some time and there would be many leads to have to run down, especially when you're actively being misled. And we know that if this is in fact her throwing it away, you do want to mislead. You don't want to say you stopped at Hux, you don't want to say you stopped at gas. Because the whole purpose was to throw something away that can't be tracked. And guess what? As we'll know by the time they recover this video, it's too late to go to that trash can. It has since been emptied.
- [72:50]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
The last thing we're going to say, I'm going to go ahead and talk about this, just because we've talked about it before, is the dogs. And look, all of you have ever had dogs. You know how dogs are. You have very specific ways you treat your dogs. Your dogs act in very specific ways. And of all the things in your life, your dogs are the thing that if they start acting in a strange way or if something's unusual to dogs, that probably says more about you than just about anything. Anything. And as we've said, the dogs in this case, especially the older one, were known to be very protective of Jade. They also tended to be inside dogs. They typically only went out to use the bathroom and maybe to briefly run around and get some exercise. But inexplicably, Julia left the dogs in the backyard when she left home. And this isn't something she just forgot. In fact, if you listen to her interview with the police, she remembered the dogs barking at her as she drove away. This was so unusual that it was one of the things that Michael, Jade's father, simply could not get past. Everything else in the story. Yeah, I don't know. But the dogs was something that just stuck with him. The fact that those dogs were outside in the back when she supposedly had left for an hour, he just could not wrap his mind around that. And it's one of those tiny little details that feels like another, maybe not a mistake, because if this murder happened, one of those dogs might have had something to say about it, but something that points to a very different story than the one Julia is telling.
- [74:30]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And this is really important because Michael lives there and he knows these. Every dog may act differently, but he lives there. He knows the rhythms of these dogs. And those of you who have pets may be able to understand why this is a fact or a, a particular point of her story that he just can't get past. We have a cat here at our house and there's a cat that looks just like it. That is a neighborhood cat. I don't know that it's wild because it's pretty well kept, but it looks a lot like my cat. I am not particularly a cat person, so I can't totally, like tell cats apart. But because the cat that like lives with us never goes out. I mean, like, you open the door and be like, go out. And the cat sits at the threshold, refusing to go past the threshold because she just doesn't like the outside looks up at you, meows, and then scoots back into the house. That whenever I see the other cat that really is our cat's doppelganger, I know for a fact that cat outside in my backyard is not the cat inside. And I never even panic and say, what's the cat doing outside? Because I know it's so uncharacteristic that even if the door were wide open, this cat inside the house would never go out. That you can never convince me the cat who looks like the doppelganger is in fact my cat. So that's like my, my knowing of the animals inside my house.
- [75:46]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
So we've covered a lot today. Less than I thought we would. I think this is going to be a four.
- [75:52]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I didn't think we were going to finish, but still we didn't cover as much as I thought.
- [75:55]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
But we'll see because next episode, honestly, we don't hide the ball from you. We never do. And we've talked about a lot of damning evidence. The most damning evidence though, coming next episode. Like, we've talked about a lot of real, real circumstantial evidence in the traditional sense of the word. Well, this is not just a circumstantial case in the traditional sense of the word. There's a lot of physical evidence in this case and it's going to be physical evidence that is very bad for Julia. So we're going to talk about that next time. We're going to talk about some DNA. Just the state of the house, the fingernail scrapings, the blood and the wounds on Julia. And then we will get to our theories. I know you guys have a lot of thoughts on this case. It's generated a lot of discussion on the gallery. Shoot us an email prosecutors podmail.com@spokenspot for all your social media. Join the gallery, which is our fan created Facebook fan run Facebook group on Facebook. The gallery by the way, for those who don't know, in a courtroom, the place where the spectators sit is called the gallery. And that's why it's called the Gallery on Facebook, if you ever wondered that, which apparently some people do. Great group people. Got about 12,000 people there now. Always have a lot of different ideas. Wonderful place to have discussions about this. If you want to get your episodes early and ad free, you now have two options. You can join Patreon for $3 a month or you can join Apple subscriptions for $3 a month. Though if you want to see us record these, the only way to do that is through patreon also for $3 a month. By the time you hear this, it'll be CrimeCon will be a Ponus by the time you hear this, which is wild to even think about, but hope you guys will join us there. If you still haven't bought your tickets, get some code prosecutors for 10% off. Or if you just want to come to Vegas and hang out, meet us. We'll be at various bars. I forget what the main one at Caesar's palace is.
- [78:01]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We'll be there.
- [78:02]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We'll be there that night. Come hang out with us. Use the money you would have spent on Crimecon to play the craps. I'll be there with you. We'll play craps together, you know, and we'll have a great time. Always bet on the pass line and back it up. That's the best odds in the casino. All right, Alice, anything else you want to add before we sign off today?
- [78:19]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We said this in the first episode. As you can tell, we don't hide the ball from you, but we are also following the evidence. And in this case there is a lot of evidence. Evidence coming from Julia herself as well as your typical csi, DNA, luminol blood evidence. Not to mention all of the digital evidence that we've gone into today as well. There is more to come. If you don't think that this is a very clear case, I think you will be by next time. I don't. If you haven't already, we may not convince you, but this is not a case with shoddy police work with a preordained outcome that the police wanted. You are hearing exactly what happened in the investigation interviews just hours after Jade was found brutally murdered. 104 sharp knife wounds to the body. An 11 year old girl. There is a lot more to come, so please do tune in. We always welcome your thoughts, but it's hard not to get heated when you zoom back for a moment and think about Jade and the horrendous last moments of her life and who inflicted this upon her.
- [79:24]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
All right, guys, we'll be back next week. Maybe with the conclusion of this, maybe with the penultimate episode we will have to see. But until then, I'm Brett.
- [79:37]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And I'm Alice.
- [79:38]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
And we are the prosecutors. I'm gonna go ahead and go live. That's okay with you?
- [80:05]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Trying to figure out if. Wait, what is happening? Is this the microphone that's doing it?
- [80:11]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Do you want me to go live?
- [80:13]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
No, go ahead. I'm just trying to figure out my microphone setting.
- [80:16]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I see.
- [80:17]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Which is fine.
- [80:23]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Let's see.
- [80:24]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Where are we at?
- [80:25]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Yeah, no, it's good. The setting is good.
- [80:28]
Police Interviewer/Investigator
Okay.
- [80:29]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Do you think people figured out April Fools or not?
- [80:32]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I don't know.
- [80:33]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
I don't think they did.
- [80:34]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
They're here. You can ask them.
- [80:49]
Police Interviewer
Sam.
- [81:36]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Trying to decide whether to go with an astronaut descriptor or a foolish descriptor.
- [81:41]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
It's like I have a. I. I
- [81:45]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
want to hear everyone's April Celebrate or mock. It's hard for me.
- [81:52]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Hard for me. You're usually a mocker. I'll help you there,
- [82:05]
Police Interviewer
Sam.
- [82:40]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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- [82:43]
Brett (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
We're coming at you with everything we got.
- [82:46]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
This is the mindset free. This is the mantra
- [82:52]
Police Interviewer
mindset.
- [82:52]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
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Juliette Cowley (Retired FBI Profiler, True Crime Podcast Host)
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- [84:16]
Alice (Co-host, Prosecutors Podcast)
Help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.