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Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy. To see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law, insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Even you. If either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find the coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a palette, arrange it on a canvas?
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B
I began to unlock the secrets.
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A
I was a storehouse of knowledge, of
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B
how to create an illusion, present it to a experienced expert, manipulate his mind
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and convince him, and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine. We flooded the market with my paintings, and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling, and eventually the FBI were led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me, but they never actually got you. At this point, you've sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold one painting for 717,000. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation? I guess that's the greatest story of all. To hear how Ken Perenni made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI. Subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger show and check out episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. Foreign. I'm brett.
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B
And I'm alice.
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A
And we are the prosecutors. Today on the Prosecutors, a group of scientists, engineers and military personnel, many tied to sensitive research, die or disappear under strange circumstances. Is it just a coincidence or something far more sinister? Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my beam me up Scotty co host Alice.
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B
Just call me a believer. I believe. I believe. And here, I don't know Brett, maybe there is a beam me up situation because I'm in the camp right now. Basically you have to prove me wrong that this was not a beam me up Scotty situation we're about to cover.
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A
And look, if you have been paying attention to the news at all, you may have seen stories about a number of scientists, military personnel, all these people who work in very sensitive areas, things that have to do with UFO technology or nuclear physics or space, space propulsion, all these very sort of high level people who have either disappeared under mysterious circumstances or died under mysterious circumstances. And the number is now depending on who you up to 11, 12, 13, maybe more. And a lot of you wanted us to cover it and we said, hey, our lives are only so valuable, so why not? And if we disappear after this, I'm sure it will be a complete coincidence.
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B
We'll see. And if you have no idea what we are talking about or there's some willful ignorance, you might be smart because once we get through basically what happened to all these people who you're seeing on the screen who are not the people we're going to talk about. So don't be confused. You might be thinking, huh, the less I know, the safer I am. Perhaps. Because what we're about to talk about is. Okay, close your eyes for a second. What if I told you that over the past three years more than a dozen scientists and military personnel associated with high level research and development have either disappeared or died under mysterious circumstances? Open your eyes because that is exactly what has happened. So this isn't in some, you know, we've talked about this in the outlaw past. This isn't another country in another time during like the Cold War. We're talking about present day. So could this be merely a mundane coincidence? You know, people are always looking for patterns. People do die all the time. Maybe this is just a string of unfortunate events. Or is this one of the greatest conspiracies in American history and we're going
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A
to find out Tonight together. So we're going to do this a little different than we normally do. I mean, we're talking about a lot of people. So what we're going to do is first we're going to give you a timeline. But it's just when these people either died or disappeared. Not going to tell you anything about them. All we're telling you is the date and the name and what happened to them. And then we're going to go through person by person, in no particular order of who these people are and what might have happened to them. And then we can. It actually is in a particular order. But as you'll see and decide for ourselves, is there some sort of conspiracy? And at the end of our discussion of each person, we're going to tell you whether I think this is debunked or whether this is potentially part of some larger story. Okay, so the first person who is generally considered part of this Group died on June 11, 2022. This is by far the earliest and a little bit of an outlier on date. Amy Eskridge dies of what is described as a self inflicted gunshot wound. Then the next person is in 2024, May 12, 2024. And you're gonna see everything speeds up a lot. There's a lot closer in time. So May 12, 2024, Matthew James Sullivan dies of what is described as an overdose. In July of 2024, a little unclear on the date because his family's very private. Michael David hicks dies. On July 4, 2024, Frank Maywald dies. Then skip forward to May 8, 2025, Anthony Chavez disappears into the desert in New Mexico. On June 22, 2025, Monica Reza disappears while hiking in California.
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B
So the spate of Disappearances continues. On June 26, 2025. Just a few days later, Melissa Casillas disappears from Talpa, New Mexico. Then on July 22, 2025, Joshua LeBlanc dies in a car accident. August 28, 2025, Steven Garcia disappears into the desert in New Mexico. Then in December 12, 2025, Jason Thomas is found dead in a lake. A couple days later, December 15, 2025, Nuno Loro is murdered. On February 16, 2026, Carl Grillmeyer is shot on his front porch. February 27, 2026, William Neil McCasland disappears into the desert in New Mexico.
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A
I'll tell you what I've learned from this case. The deserts in New Mexico, terrifying, super dangerous. Like four different people just disappear into the New Mexico.
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B
Even if this is not part of anything tied together the fact that There are so many people just like wandering off into the desert and never being found is something else. I'm not going to the New Mexico desert, apparently.
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A
Yes, stay away from the deserts of New Mexico. That's my, my suggestion to you based on that. Okay. So as you can see, these disappearances and deaths, they all occur relatively close together, kind of in batches. I mean, you'll see like, you know, the summer of a year, several people disappear. December, several people disappear. February, several people disappear. So you know, in this timing and given as you're going to say who these people are, has led a lot of people to say, man, it's just one after another. And the number is one of the things that has led people to think there is some sort of conspiracy here. Now remember, if only five of them disappeared in mysterious circumstances, that still might be a conspiracy. And as you're going to see, I think there's been a little bit of like, let's assume for a second, something is going on here. Some of this is also padding, I think the media, now that they have this story, they are attempting to connect cases to the story. So as you're going to see, there are some really weird disappearances and deaths we're going to talk about. But then there's some stuff that's really innocuous and we're going to start off with one of the most. So Michael David Hicks. So we mentioned Michael earlier. He died in July 2024. He was a longtime Jet Propulsion Laboratory scientist. In fact, he was there from 1998 to 2022. And he was someone who worked on a lot of really interesting things, including missions to asteroids and comets. I mean, just cool stuff that he did. He lived in California, in the LA area. As we said. He died in July of 2024 at the age of 59. And of all the cases we're going to talk about, this one is the weakest, as we said. Don't even really know the exact date because his family is pretty private and they have remained private on this issue. The only thing that they have said to sort of stem the tide here is that he did have long standing medical issues that he had struggled with for a long time that eventually took his life. And they are frankly very upset by the conspiracy aspect and kind of want people just to leave them alone. And I think that's what we should do. I think this is one where this is an interesting guy. He did a lot of really interesting work. But number one, I mean, I don't know that anybody's going after a guy who's go into comets and asteroids. Really cool. But I don't know that you need to take him out. And in any event, I think this is one we can say is debunked.
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B
Just by the way, as you can probably tell, there's a reason we actually stuck with the fake photos of all of them. Because you can imagine if your loved one has recently passed away and you know all of the circumstances around their death and you know that there is absolutely no mysterious circumstances around their death. It re traumatizing, really, to have them be pulled into this national spotlight of some nefarious conspiracy that may be happening when you just want to grieve in private. And these people have all lost their loved ones very recently. So I think it's actually very apt that ChatGPT maybe is just very thoughtful in that, that they. They gave us wrong photos of everybody. So next is Frank Mywald. So like Michael, Frank was a senior Jet Propulsion Laboratory engineer who spent decades in space instrumentation. He also lived in the Los Angeles County, California area. And he died on July 4, 2024, also very close in time to Michael. Now, he was 61 when he died. And Frank's obituary is entirely ordinary. If you go read it, it indicates that he simply passed away from natural causes. Other than dying and working at jpl, there's really nothing to indicate anything unusual about Frank's death. So the verdict in this one probably is also that it's debunked. There's nothing mysterious. He did work at jpl, but he died from natural causes.
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A
And look, we're going to be talking about similar areas a lot here. I mean, this all happened in Los Angeles or New Mexico, but there's a reason for that. That's where the big laboratories are. So if you're going to do a story about mysterious deaths and disappearance as a scientist, they're all going to be clustered in a few areas. I mean, there probably won't be many from my hometown because we don't have any. We don't have any jet propulsion labs there. Right. It's going to be places where you see this. So some of this is just. We look for patterns and we see patterns which like, oh, that's two in a row who worked at JPL and lived in Los Angeles. Yeah. And JPL is a pretty massive organization. So it's not that unusual that you have some people in their late 50s and 60s who are going to be passing away from various illnesses. So these are pretty easily debunked. I Think. And as you're going to see, it gets more and more interesting as we go along. Let's talk about Jason Thomas. Now, Jason Thomas, he is a scientist. He was a pharma researcher in Wakefield, Massachusetts. In a lot of ways, he's kind of an outlier in what he does and where he is. I think it's just the fact he is a scientist and he did go missing. And he went missing in December of 2025. And that timing has led him to be connected. But when he went missing, it was one of those things that wasn't a great mystery for the people who knew him. His friends immediately reported him missing to the police and they had great concern because he had been distraught and severely depressed over the death of his parents. And this is another thing. These conspiracy theories, they're often fun. You know, it's sexy, it's fun to joke around about them and talk about them. But these are all real people dealing with real things. And it seems like Jason was really going through it at the time. And I think we need to remember that when we talk about this, that these are real stories. And he had been distraught over the death of his parents. There was real concern that he might have been suicidal. And unfortunately, his body was found floating in a nearby lake. As I said, Thomas is a bit of an unusual person to include in this at all, given that he didn't even work in any of the sort of exotic sciences that normally are raised in this case. And his death, well, absolutely a tragedy is certainly not part of any conspiracy. So I think we can debunk this one as well.
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B
I don't know, Brett. All your reason is really, I promise
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A
you it's going to get, it's going to get weirder eventually get away.
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B
All right, then let's, let's talk about Carl Grillemeyer. So his background is he went to Caltech, he's an IPAC astrophysicist, and he does do NASA linked work. So unlike the other cases we've looked at so far, Grillemeyer's death is anything but ordinary. On February 16, 2026, he was shot on his front porch. However, we do know exactly who did this. It was Freddy Snyder, who was a 27 year old burglar known to the authorities. He would make an unusual assassin. Being that he's young and he is actually just a known burglar. He would go around and, you know, do this. And unfortunately, Gro Meier was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Caught Snyder while he was trying to burglarize his home. He was shot and killed. Groeyer was 67 years old. So while this is a tragic death not from natural causes, he was murdered. It seems to be from something unfortunately all too common these days, which is just violent crime due to a home invasion. So the verdict on Grillmire is also that he's not part of this big conspiracy. Some of you may be thinking, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're dismissing the fact that Freddy Snyder may be working for the CIA or another nefarious body who's trying to end all these scientists. He's a petty criminal. By petty, I mean now a murderer. But he is a known criminal in this area. And if he were linked to some great high profile assassin network, he probably would have given them up. But he's just another criminal, really.
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A
And this is the way conspiracies often work. You know, you mention this guy and it's like, well, they could have framed that guy. He could be a patsy. Well, I mean, okay, he could. Any reason to think that, Any evidence to think that, Any indication that that's true? Anything unusual about what is unfortunately a fairly common thing. Burglars are really dangerous. I mean, there's a reason we treat burglary traditionally as a pretty serious crime, because it often can lead to violence. And this is also a case that illustrates just what an absolute loss. Carl Grillmayer was awesome. I mean, he did just some incredible stuff. Brilliant guy. I mean, a true tragedy to lose this guy. And it's just such a shame you have, you know, the best of us killed by some petty criminal. It's just an absolute tragedy. And I think don't lose sight of that in this whole conspiracy thing. I mean, that's just great. A huge loss to anybody who cares about space and space exploration and going to the moon and going to Mars. I mean, this was a guy who had made incredible, incredible contributions to science over the years. And it's just awful that it ended the way it did. The same is true of Nuno Lorero. He was an MIT physics professor, the director of Plasma Science and Fusion Center. And you probably recall this one. He was shot at his home in Brookline on December 15, 2025 by Claudio Valente, who was a madman who had also conducted a shooting and killed a young lady at Brown and had some grudge going back to his school days with Lorero. I think they were both in school in like, Portugal together or something. And years decades later, after he conducts a shooting at Brown, he goes and kills Nuno. And this is a another One that's an absolute tragedy. Brilliant guy, huge loss, not to mention the loss of the young lady at Brown. But this is not part of some conspiracy. This was a horrific act of violence that took this man's life. And once again, it's really easy to kick these out. I mean, the fact that these people that we've mentioned so far are mentioned as some sort of conspiracy is just a real indication of reaching for a story where at least so far it's not there. Because this is another one that's debunked. He is not part of some grand conspiracy. His murder was a tragedy, but not something that we have to worry about writ large.
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B
And they are, they're all really well accomplished scientists. But so far, if you were to draw all these people into this conspiracy, it's not clear. It's like, oh, okay, you know how to split the atom, you know how to create atomic bomb and you know how to do X, Y or Z. Not so except for the fact that they're all brilliant scientists, but in different fields as well.
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A
Now the next one.
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B
I was going to say now though now gets interesting.
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A
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B
Visit your nearby Lowe's
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A
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B
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A
And I will say this. I think, you know, we do a lot of cases, we do innocence cases, you know, we talk about innocence cases a lot. And I think you can compare innocence cases to conspiracies in that innocence cases thrive on a lack of information. So if you want to prove someone is innocent, you don't want to prove it. You want to convince people someone is innocent. What you'll often see is cherry picked information, leaving out a lot of details and facts, confusing timelines, confusing way of telling the story, not making records available for people to consider. That's what you typically see. And we come in and our thing is always we're gonna give you everything, we're gonna lay out a timeline, we're gonna shoot you straight, we're gonna give you all the evidence and then we're gonna make a conclusion. And oftentimes we say, yeah, they totally did it. And now that you have more information, you can see why now that you have all the information before you. This isn't even a closed case. And with conspiracies, I think you have something similar that often happens. This is a great example. We can't tell you this is not part of some greater conspiracy because we don't have enough information. If we had all the information about Matthew Sullivan, we might well be able to say he had been struggling for years, drug addiction, he was depressed, etc. So imipramine is an antidepressant often used to treat depression. Alcohol, Xanax and Flexeril are all downers and not great to combine those. Really easy to take too much of those fall asleep and never wake up. That is not that surprising if he's actually an addict, that this might happen to him. He took too much and he died. Of course, if you were going to fake it, this is the way you do it. It kind of goes back to when we talked about the Isdale woman. So you don't fake a suicide and then light someone on fire because that's such a crazy thing. That's just not what any person would do. Right. If you're going to fake a suicide, you make it look like a typical suicide or a typical overdose. And that's what you have here. This is a very typical looking overdose. But I don't think that necessarily means it is an overdose because if you're going to fake it, that's the way you would do it. I hope we get more information on him. I do hope this investigation that Congress has called for leads to more information about this. One of the problems with this case is the reporting is being done by like the New York Post and the Daily Mail. And so you get these really sort of incendiary, fantastic stories, but you're not getting the cold water type approach. It would be nice to see. I would love to just see an article on this man where somebody went and talked to all his friends and family and said that he's been held up as one of the key examples in this conspiracy. But it's not there. Maybe we'll see that kind of reporting. I don't know. Okay, so Amy Eskridge, Amy Eskridge, you may recall, is the first person we mentioned. And Amy is a very interesting person in the same way that Matthew Sullivan was. She was a propulsion researcher in Huntsville, Alabama and she founded something called the Institute for Exotic Science. So this is just the sort of type of research that you might think is the core of this conspiracy. So on June 11, 2022, Eskridge died of a gunshot wound. The police would later say that this was a self inflicted wound. And according to her family, she had struggled for years with chronic pain for which she simply could get no relief. And her family believes that is what led to her suicide. This is not some sort of conspiracy. I put a lot of stock in the statements of family when it comes to these cases because if anything, family often wants to believe the conspiracy. They want to believe something else happened, that it wasn't something like suicide. And here they're saying that's what it was. So I think unlike James Sullivan, we can say that Amy's case is debunked.
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B
Yeah, sounds Like a sad case. And this is certainly a case. What was the woman driving the van?
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A
Aunt Diane.
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B
Aunt Diane, if you remember, that was one of the first cases we covered. And if you remember, there's a documentary of what happened to Aunt Diane and the family is a part of it. And if you remember, the family members really actually, when they spoke on the documentary, they couldn't believe that she would do this intentionally, that anything would lead to this. And they wanted to hang on anything that maybe even supernatural that could be happening, strange things to explain the unexplainable here. That's usually what we see with loved ones because they don't want to believe that their family member can cause harm to themselves in this way. So when you actually have the family members coming forward and saying something, that's really difficult. Right. Many people, in fact, don't even want to share when their loved ones end their own lives because they don't want that to mar their reputation or their image because you never know what's going on in someone's mind. So I put a lot of stock, like you said, the fact that Amy's family's like, look, this is not part of conspiracy. She's struggled with chronic pain for a very long time, and this was self inflicted. I think that's very, very sad situation. And if I'm dealing with an already difficult situation of losing a loved one in that way, knowing she'd suffered for so long, being pulled into this conspiracy would be very upsetting. Okay, let's talk about Joshua LeBlanc. So he's a NASA engineer, also in Huntsville. By the way, the grouping here makes sense, right? There's only. So NASA's not like in every city. NASA's in Houston, it's in Huntsville. So it makes sense that they are grouped together because if they are NASA engineers, there's only so many cities they'd be working in. So he was one who worked at NASA in Huntsville, and he was working as team lead on new nuclear propulsion. On July 22, 2025, LeBlanc was found dead after a fiery Tesla crash. So he reportedly left his phone and his wallet at home. And the Tesla data showed unexplained stopping at a Huntsville airport that lasted for four hours. At the time of death, LeBlanc was only 29 years old. And the crash happened after LeBlanc headed west on rural roads before crashing off of a guardrail into some trees. So the police apparently reviewed the Tesla data and they determined that there was no foul play involved here. So this is strange. But we do have like an independent black box Tesla showing us erratic movement by LeBlanc right before this crash. So this is a weird one, but unless you think the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency is involved in some sort of mass massive cover up, it's likely just a tragic type of mental episode of some sort that happened here with LeBlanc. The erratic movement that the Tesla is capturing and then ending in what appears to be a terrible crash. The verdict is it's not debunked, but it's close because this is one of those you'd have to believe. Aaliyah Alabama Law Enforcement Agency and is not part of NASA. It's a state law enforcement agency that has not been known to cover up massive UFO or nuclear propulsion types of things. Those are two very different agencies, I guess you could even call them. One's federal, one state. There's no indication as to why the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency would be part of this cover up. What they have to gain from it, that they'd have any information into NASA. It's not like something that they work closely together with. So unfortunately it seems like Joshua LeBlanc was probably dealing with something that we don't know about. And you know, frankly his family doesn't necessarily have to share with the world. But based on his movements right before the crash, I think it's fair to say that it wasn't someone grabbing the wheel or you know, hacking into his Tesla and causing the crash to happen.
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A
And look, we've all seen, I mean, y' all been with us 300 and some episodes. We've done a lot of cases on people that just, just for whatever reason, whether it's mental illness or drugs or something, we just can't explain, they just kind of snap and for some period of time they do inexplicable things and it leads to tragedy. We've seen that unfortunately a lot. And this one is weird. It's weird that he left all this stuff behind. It's weird that he drove to the airport and sat for four hours. It's weird that he then starts driving west down these rural roads and ends up in a fiery crash. All that's very strange. But the best possible vehicle to be in as far as law enforcement is concerned is a Tesla because it's like the security state on steroids. It records everything, it's probably video, the whole thing frankly, from a Tesla.
- [37:09]
B
And also if you fell asleep in the Tesla, the Tesla of all cars would be self driving. So like you can imagine if he fell asleep on a Rural road. He was started to veer off. The Tesla would actually veer him back on. So the fact that he went through guardrails and smashed into trees indicates that it was driver intended. Because the Tesla, this is like how they sell their cars, is that they're self driving cars.
- [37:30]
A
So maybe there's more to the story, but we don't have any indication there is. And I think this is one we can probably leave behind. The next one, Anthony Chavez, this one is a similar instance to what we saw with LeBlanc. He was a Los Alamos Nuclear Labs employee in New Mexico. But this is the thing like, wow, he worked at Los Alamos Nuclear Labs. He probably knows all sorts of stuff. But he was a construction foreman because remember, there's all sorts of people that work at these really top secret bases that do things like mop the floor and make the coffee and build the shed. And that's basically what he was doing. Now, on May 8, 2025, he apparently walked into the New Mexico desert with no car, no phone, no wallet, no keys. The police have said that they found no signs of foul play, but they found no Chavez either. But, and this is something that tends to get left out in reporting about this case, Chavez was 78 years old. He was retired from his job at the nuclear labs and had been for a while. And it's likely, given his age, that what happened was the result probably of some sort of dementia rather than foul play. And as we said, he had a relatively low level job at Los Alamos. So it seems strange that he would be a target for foul play. And I think we can say this one is, I'll say, likely debunked. It's a little weird that he walks in the desert, particularly given that we're gonna see more people do that. But I think this one is likely debunked. Now, the next case now is gonna talk about. We could do a whole episode on this one.
- [39:07]
B
All right, Melissa Cassias. So she also was at the Los Alamos Nuclear Labs and she was an administrative employee with a security clearance. Though Now Chavez's disappearance would likely not be that interesting if it were not for the disappearance of Melissa casillas. So on June 26, 2025, the 53 year old Casillas dropped off her husband at his shift at los Alamos at 6:15am Ordinarily, she would have gone in with him, but that day she'd forgotten her id, so she decided to work from home. Her husband Mark expected her to bring the car back by 11am but she never showed up. It was at this point that Mark learned Melissa had never signed in for work at all. But strangely we know where Melissa was at this point because at 12:50 Melissa dropped off a Subway sandwich where her daughter Ciara worked. Sierra gave Melissa a check to drop off at the bank and melissa left. At 2:18 a friend of the family saw Melissa walking down New Mexico 518 in Taupa, New Mexico, which is about three miles from her home. A camera caught Melissa walking later. Now she's wearing a backpack. The family would later report they believed Melissa took her toothbrush, hair iron and and other items with her. That afternoon the family realized that something was wrong. Melissa's personal phone, work phone and keys were found on the table. Both phones had been factory reset. And after the disappearance Melissa's family stated that she was under an immense amount of stress. So if this were not part of this conspiracy, this whole situation could be just a missing persons case that we'd be doing.
- [40:53]
A
I mean this is weird.
- [40:54]
B
This is super weird because she, she's dropping off sandwiches for her daughter and about to cash a check and says like goodbye to her husband at 6:15. But she doesn't disappear at 7am she disappears like eight hours later, if not longer. Right. She has like a normal day.
- [41:12]
A
This to me I'm going to be following this case because this was happened on June 26, 2025. So it's been about a year. This to me feels like a planned disappearance because did she forget her ID or was that just a convenient excuse? So it's like she drops her husband off, she says goodbye to him, he thinks he's gonna see her at 11 she leaves. Then she goes and she sees her daughter, her adult daughter, she has this interaction with her and then she leaves. And then all of a sudden we have her walking with a backpack down New Mexico 518, not driving the car
- [41:50]
B
that she has access to.
- [41:51]
A
And I gotta think she left everything behind, money, cell phones, factory reset, the cell phones. Clearly trying to hide something. Now I would think, you know, maybe she's trying to hide the fact that aliens or whatever. But I think the more likely thing is some sort of relationship, some sort of person she's gonna walk to and meet and she's now resetting her phone so nobody can see that. Very strange, very unusual. Feels like one of those rare cases where someone decided to disappear on their own. So gonna be following this one because it's a strange one.
- [42:29]
B
So I would not say it's necessarily debunked. But I would say this case in and of itself is just so strange. It is a case standalone. Whether it's part of this grander conspiracy, I don't know. And now that you see why Anthony Chavez is grouped into this potential conspiracy, it's really only because of Melissa. But when you look at Melissa's case, it does seem like her situation was a planned disappearance. There's no indication that she knew Anthony well, that they were meeting up and then they were going to be beamed up together. None of those things. So other than the fact that they worked at the same place, I don't think Anthony's disappearance would have been swept in.
- [43:07]
A
I think one thing that's interesting about most of these scientists who disappeared is they aren't scientists like most of the ones that are scientists. It's very easy to explain what happened to them. Most of the ones that have very strange disappearances are low level people. I mean, we're about to see another one. So right now we have a guy who walked off into the desert, a woman who disappeared on her own. We're about to see another person who walked off into the desert, but also not a high level person. Now before we finish, we're gonna get to the people that make people think something's going on here. But it's only a couple of people. There's like a couple of people that you're gonna see. It's very strange. But so far there are some strange cases, but they don't feel like they're part of some big conspiracy. And the next one is Steven Garcia. He was a contractor property custodian tied to Kansas City Nuclear Security Campus, which handles non nuclear components for US nuclear weapons. So think everything but the bomb. So if you have an icbm, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that. Only a very small part of that is the actual nuclear weapon they build. Everything else but I mean, he's a contractor property custodian. He would have technically had control over billions of dollars worth of goods, but in many ways sort of a lower level position. Now, his disappearance is strange. On August 28, 2025, he leaves his Albuquerque home and heads off into the desert. And we have an image of him caught on a security camera. He is walking on foot towards the desert. He's got a bottle of water in one hand and a handgun in the other, which is strange. He left behind his vehicle, he left behind all of his personal effects. The only thing he took was that gun and a bottle of water. Authorities have stated that they fear he may be a danger to himself. This is one. We just don't have enough information to give you any definitive statement. But based on what we know, this does seem like some sort of deeply personal event happened that led him to walk off into the desert with a gun in his hand. I think this is probably not part of any grand conspiracy.
- [45:15]
B
You know, it is interesting. It's easier to just say scientists are missing, not that his job's not important. But like also, when you think of, if you were thinking about someone pulling all these people to a secret lab to create something that's never been created before, would it be the contractor? Or to be someone with the direct knowledge of these plans? This is also interesting when you break down what their actual roles were. Not that they're not important in the grand scheme of things. We're not talking about like the five people who know the nuclear codes, you know, to detonate the atomic bomb. That's not what we're dealing with here.
- [45:45]
A
Okay, so I'm actually going to skip ahead. I'm going to do the one we have last because it's the most recent one first, because the last two we're going to do are the core of this case and are the real reason people think there might be some sort of conspiracy. Everything else is window dressing. Let's talk about David Wilcox. Those of you like me, who love ancient aliens are probably familiar with David Wilcox. David Wilcox was a paranormal investigator known for his appearances on the greatest history program ever made, ancient aliens. On April 20, 2026, police responded to a report of a 53 year old in distress on Park Ridge Road in Boulder County, Colorado. And shortly after deputies arrived, Wilcox shot himself. Now, what's interesting about this, the police witnessed this. It's also interesting that two days before his suicide, his apparent suicide, Wilcox wrote a message on Twitter that read, my dear family, I am not sure if I'm doing a show tomorrow. I've had some very intense stuff going on this weekend. Either way, I want you all to know how much I love and appreciate you. Always remember that the Creator is within and we live in a loving universe. I am very grateful to you for all of your love, care and support. And after that, he named several people who had supported him. So although Wilcox did do the live show the next day, it seems that whatever demons he was struggling with, one in the inn, and his family would later say that Wilcox was struggling with significant debt and depression. So this is the most recent case that has been tied to this, April 20th. But this one very clearly seems like a suicide, unfortunately. And the verdict on this one is debunked.
- [47:31]
B
And I think that got so much attention because by this point, before David had ended his own life, again, witnessed by sheriffs, the conspiracy was already being a buzz, right? People already talking about it, and they're like, what? Throw them into the conspiracy. There's even more now. And so that created even more buzz because it was already, you know, the President had even talked about it at this point. And so I think people, when you're the hammer, you're always looking for a nail. And in this case, it was like, let's throw another one in there.
- [48:00]
A
And people point to a tweet he made back in 2022 where he said he would never kill himself. And number one, exactly the fact that he tweeted that means it's like something that's come up. And number two, that as we all know, if you've known anyone who struggled with depression, if you've known anyone who has taken their own life, that doesn't mean anything. Someone could tell you that the day before, and the demons win. I mean, that's just how it goes. Suicide does not tend to be a rational thing. It is deeply irrational and awful and horrible for all the reasons we've discussed before. But it is incredibly unfortunate that David could not see how many people just thought he was really cool. I mean, you know, I just. I know he was struggling with things that you never know. And just because you're on television, everything else, it's hard to say, but this is a suicide. He was not killed because of his beliefs about aliens. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. Every true crime story has money somewhere in the mix. The motive, the pressure, the moment everything goes wrong. Financial stress pushes people to desperate decisions. And lack of financial literacy is what makes people, especially kids and teens, easy targets. Teaching your kids about money isn't just smart parenting. It's protection. Because today, money doesn't live in a vacuum. It's tied to where your kids go, how they move through the world, and what happens when something goes wrong. Green light helps keep your family's financial and personal safety from becoming another cautionary tale. Greenlight is a debit card and app for families. But it's more than a money tool. It's a safety net for teaching kids about money while also helping protect them before bad habits, bad actors, or real world risks take hold. Here's the problem. Hand them cash, and it's a total blind spot. Open a standard bank account and you might see transactions later. But you can't set spending limits or block risky merchants. By the time you spot trouble, the money's already gone. You're always reacting, always playing defense. Green light works differently. You get real time notifications the second your child swipes their card. You can set spending controls by store category and see exactly where money is going. So you're not watching from the sidelines. You're actively guiding choices as they happen. Alison I you know, we got seven kids between us. We know it's hard to teach kids how to save, how to invest, how to spend their money wisely. Well, greenlight will help you do that. And it goes beyond money. Parents can place alerts when kids come and go from school, activities or home. There are even driving safety features that help you understand risky behavior behind the wheel. And here's the part that should stop you your kids are always handling money allowance, birthday cash first paychecks and scammers know it. Scams targeting teens have tripled and every transaction without your visibility. It's an opportunity for for Rod, it's time to make a difference in your kids lives when it comes to their money. Every day they're handling money without guidance is a missed opportunity. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com Prosecutors don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. That's greenlight.com prosecutors to get started. Greenlight.com prosecutors
- [51:24]
B
guys, lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day. Leaning into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable and still put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. Quints has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering and everything just works without overthinking it. Quince makes it easy to refresh your everyday this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim. So just the other day I was actually out with Brett and Mrs. Brett and I was wearing their washable silk blouse. Mrs. Brett looked at me and said, whoa, where did you get that awesome blouse? When I said quince, she said, I knew it. They always have the best pieces. And here's the thing, I own it in three colors and I travel with it because it washes great and it doesn't wrinkle and I always look put together when I walk off the plane.
- [52:21]
A
Guys, you know how much I love quints. If you're going to Crimecon and you see me, I'll be wearing it. But I was at Mother's Day And I learned something else. My mom loves quints too. And I gotta say, and I might be biased, but if my mom loves quints, that tells you how awesome it truly is. You need to get in on this. Refresh your every day with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quints.com prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quincom. Prosecutors for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com prosecutors when it comes to weight
- [53:06]
B
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- [53:35]
A
I sold my car in Carvana last night.
- [53:37]
B
Well, that's cool.
- [53:38]
A
No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.
- [53:44]
B
So what's the problem?
- [53:45]
A
That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch.
- [53:49]
B
Maybe there's no catch.
- [53:50]
A
That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.
- [53:53]
B
Wow. You need to relax.
- [53:54]
A
I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood?
- [53:57]
B
I think it's laminate.
- [53:58]
A
Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.
- [53:59]
B
Car selling without a catch Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.
- [54:05]
A
Mom, can you tell me a story?
- [54:06]
B
Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required. Did you have to fight a dragon? Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.
- [54:38]
A
This is it. So, Monica Reza. So Monica was an aerospace materials engineer at jpl, which we've mentioned before. And at Aerojet Rocketdyne, she was director of JPL Materials Processing Group. She was a super big deal, as you're gonna see. And she has one of those disappearances that ends up on missing411 and on YouTube channels and everything else. So on June 22, 2025, Monica is hiking with a friend near Mount Waterman in Angeles National Forest. And according to her friend, Monica was about 30ft behind this friend on the trail. So they're going up the trail. The friend is a little bit ahead of Monica. Monica's having a little bit of trouble keeping up, but they're on the trail, they're going together. The friend turns back to check on Monica, make sure she's okay. Monica looks up, she makes eye contact with her. She smiles, she waves. So at this point, the friend's like, okay, we're good. Turns back, walks for a couple more minutes, turns back around to make sure Monica's still okay. We're talking minutes tops. And Monica is gone. She has vanished into thin air. So the lady, she goes back down the trail she looks for, she cannot find her. She calls the police. And there's an extensive search and rescue operation that's conducted with lots of people, lots of dogs. All the things you expect when somebody goes missing in what is a potentially dangerous area, but not exactly the most difficult area in the world. And there is no trace of Monica that is found. And there has been no trace of her found for the last year. Now, Monica was a big deal, huge deal. She has her own Wikipedia page documenting her work. In the mid-1990s, she invented something called Mondaloy, which I assume is named after her. Mondaloy, which is a nickel based super alloy that is used to this day in rocket engines. It's an incredibly important step in rocketry that withstands high pressure and temperatures without combusting, which is like the Holy Grail. That's what you have to get to if you're gonna build rockets. And she had been involved in the creation of a whole lot of other things. She had ascended to the very top of her field. I mean, frankly, if you were gonna kidnap a scientist, this is the one to kidnap. And nevertheless, she does vanish. Now, it's likely, I mean, Occam's Razor, most likely thing, she fail, she made a wrong turn, she became hopelessly lost. For whatever reason, they didn't find her. And one day, hikers or hunters or whatever are going to come upon her body. That is certainly a possibility. But her disappearance is extremely strange and it is made all the stranger because of her connection to William Neil McCasland.
- [57:44]
B
Okay, so we say Connection because we don't exactly know how well they knew each other, if at all. So William Neil McCaslin was a retired Air Force major general. He was a former AFRL commander. He was an advanced aerospace researcher. Now, McCasland oversaw one of the programs that Monica worked on, though it's not confirmed that the two of them personally knew each other. McCasland, who was 68, was last seen on Feb. 27, 2026, at his home in Bernalillo County, New Mexico. When he was basically last seen, he left his phone, his prescription glasses and other personal items behind before he vanished. He did, however, take a revolver. Mcathland had complained of experiencing mental fog before his disappearance. I think leaving the prescription glasses behind is really interesting because you can understand leaving your wallet. If you're going out to the desert to end your own life, you don't need your wallet. You don't need your car keys. You don't need your phone. You don't want to be followed. But your glasses, because those of us who wear glasses, I can't do anything without my glasses. Like, I. The first thing you reach for in the morning, your glasses, right? You don't walk anywhere without your glasses because it's really disorienting not to be able to see clearly. But he leaves behind his prescription glasses, but takes his revolver. McKesson worked with Tom DeLonge, who was the frontman for Blink 182, on his project to the Stars. He. He's a big deal too, right? Like, he is known and incredibly accomplished in the science world, but also he's like, crossed over into pop culture world as well. Now McCaslin's name is linked to other famous people, not just Blink182. His name comes up in WikiLinks. When Hillary Clinton's advisor, John Podesta, wrote that McCaslin had been, quote, in charge of the laboratory and at Wright Patterson Air Force Base where the Roswell wreckage was shipped. So Roswell wreckage. Roswell. We think of aliens. So what happened to McCaslin? One thing we know both about Monica and McCaslin, they are at the tops of their fields. They are incredibly impressive, separate and apart from what ultimately happened to them. They were famous, they had their own online profiles. People knew them beyond just people who personally knew them because of their contributions to the science field. And they worked together, whether they knew each other or not. These projects are relatively large. But McCaslin did direct a project that Monica was working on, and they both had access to probably some of the most sensitive information and information that if you were wanting to put together a conspiracy theory about aliens or secret weapons, these are the types of people you would put in them. They probably had the knowledge beyond what the public knows about aliens or about how to build rockets or other types of weapons that you have. But what happened to McCasland? He left with a revolver and none of his personal effects. At this point, we don't know. And it's impossible to say whether this is part of some larger conspiracy or that he was a man who had been at the top of his field and he was having to wrestle with the fact that probably for the first time in his life, he had mental fog and couldn't think as clearly as he'd always done his entire life. Especially for those who think at the highest levels of intellect, it probably hits you harder than a Joe Schmo like me. If I had mental fog, I'd be like, it's a Tuesday. Perhaps it just got to the better of him. But right now, we just don't have enough information.
- [61:24]
A
Okay, so here's the thing. I'm gonna give you two opinions on this. One is the Coldwater prosecutor, and then the other is my internal secret conspiracy theorist. Okay, so let's start with the first. We've talked about 14 people tonight. Of those 14, I would say, conservatively, nine of them are easily debunked. There's no there there. They're either not actually scientists slash high level researchers. It's very obvious what happened to them or what happened to them is a little strange, but seems to be easily explicable. And it doesn't really make sense for them to be kidnapped. There's a couple people we talked about that I'm just curious to see if we ever figure out exactly what happened to them. I mean, Melissa Cassius being the main one there, but really, of all these people, there's only two of them that are actually. The conspiracy is described as. This is not 11, 12, 13, 14 actual high level scientists who've disappeared or died. If that were true, if it were a reality that a dozen high level researchers had disappeared or died within a short period of time, that might be significant. Now, I'll tell you, if you do the actual numbers on this, it's not significant. You got 500,000 people who are involved in this kind of research. 12 people disappearing and dying is nothing. I do think if it were the case that the 12 best or 12 of the top 100 or 12 of the top 500 disappeared or died. Okay, you're starting to get somewhere there. But that's not what we actually see. The numbers are used to inflate the story. The real story. Monica and William McCaslin, that's the real story. Those two fit the profile that's been described in the media. High level, really advanced, really important. The kind of people that North Korea would love to have. Or they're just too valuable, and so we have to kill them to keep North Korea or Iran or whoever from getting them. Like, if you're running down the conspiracy theory, probably, though even those two, there is an available, benign explanation of what happened. Monica was hiking with a friend. This happens. It's always difficult to imagine when it does happen, but it absolutely happens. And there are stories going back as far as you want to go of people disappearing like this and their bodies found five years later. And you realize, oh, well, shoot, we just missed them. And they'll be like in the middle of a search area and we just missed them. That just happens. You know, maybe it was Bigfoot, but it just happens, right? William McCaslin, he's older, he's going through the fog, like Alice said. He takes his gun with him. In some ways, this kind of feels like Steven Garcia. Is it weird that so many people are just walking off in the New Mexico desert? Yes, New Mexico is all desert, so maybe it's not that surprising. So I think, really, even though you can't debunk all of these, and we need more information, hopefully we'll get more information. Most likely, this is nothing. Having said that, let's talk about the conspiracy side. Here's what Air Force Intelligence, and we know they do this. It's been proven that they do it. So a large percentage of the people who were involved in the UFO community in the 70s, 80s and 90s were Air Force Intelligence plants. So Air Force Intelligence had this entire program where they would send these people out to say really crazy things about aliens and to claim to be military people who had all this information. And they're going to whistleblow because it was a really great cover for experimental weapons. So they're experimenting with all these weapons and, oh, it's probably an alien. And I know it was an alien because I saw the bodies, right? So, you know, don't look this way. Soviets. Now, some people say that they were sent out to cover up for actual aliens. Either way, the one thing that's beyond dispute is Air Force Intelligence used shills to go into the UFO community and convince them of all sorts of stuff that wasn't true. That has Been proven. Imagine for a second that Monica reza and William McCasland actually disappeared in something nefarious. One really good way to cover it up is to surround them with ordinary, easily debunked cases. Because when you go through this and you debunk all these, number one, you stop believing the reports. You stop believing the people who are chicken littleing and acting like this is all some huge conspiracy. So many people are disappearing, you think, no, those people are idiots. They don't know what they're talking about. There's no conspiracy here. And you stop looking. So the fact that that's what's happening in some ways may actually lead you to believe that these two people may have had something unusual happen to them. And the rest of this is a cover up. So that's my conspiracy theory for you guys to chew on.
- [66:27]
B
I like it. The decoys are meant to be easily debunked. They thought we would go through them and then just say, well, they're all debunkable.
- [66:35]
A
Exactly.
- [66:36]
B
I don't know. Look what the. You know me, you know where I started all along. Whenever you have anyone yelling conspiracy, there's the vast majority of these people. Even when before we looked into this, I was like, the vast majority have nothing to do with this. When you create like a subset, it's easy to pile people in just so you can pad your numbers. But seems like there are at least three in here. Two for sure. Really? The was it Cassias who's just interesting. Like I think that was just a. She truly ran off to start her own life. I don't know why. But other than that, all of them, the families knew what was going on with them. They were murdered. We know that they are dead. Many of them in horrible situations, whether it be self inflicted or a victim of crime. But I don't know. There could be enough there, especially with Monica and William, that the fact they pad all of this with easily debunkable individuals makes me want to look closer at the two of them.
- [67:36]
A
And if you're curious about what I was talking about, we should do a whole episode on this. There are lots of people. One of the most famous is Richard Doty. Look him up. Richard Doty. Where did Richard Doty work? Oh, he worked in New Mexico. That's right. He was an Air Force officer in New Mexico. His entire job was to create and disseminate disinformation about UFOs. And he was on the UFO circuit doing it. And he was not alone. So not saying that's what's happening. Not saying it's aliens, but it's aliens, so. All right, well, that's our take on this. I'm sure you've seen a lot more salacious reporting in other places. Just know it's never as salacious as people say it is. Like, even if there's a conspiracy here, it's a conspiracy about a couple people, not 11. Be careful where you get your information from. You might have Richard Doty talking to you. You don't even know it. Really interested to know what you guys think. If you think we missed anything, if you think there's more evidence here on any any of these cases, shoot us an email. Prosecutors podmail.com prosecutors pod for all your social media, join us on the gallery to discuss this and other cases. If you want to watch us record these episodes, you can join Patreon for as little as $3 a month. If you want these episodes early and ad free, you can join Patreon for $3 a month. Or if you don't like Patreon and who does, you can join Apple subscriptions for $3 a month and also get these episodes early and ad free. Though, as we always note, you'll get them all eventually. So if you don't want them early and you don't mind listening to ads, you can keep it free. And everything we do will always will be available to you guys because we hate paywalls as much as you do. All right, Alice, you want to answer any questions?
- [69:18]
B
Let's do it. The answer is just going to be with aliens.
- [69:21]
A
It's always aliens. All right, let's answer your question. I got a doozy for you tonight. I mean, you thought talking about aliens,
- [69:31]
B
this was already a doozy.
- [69:33]
A
I give you a choice. We need to talk about politics so we can talk about religion. Which do you want to do?
- [69:38]
B
Oh, my. We already talked about aliens in the CIA, so. Whatever. Pile it on.
- [69:44]
A
So this is from Mommy Wicket. Mommy Wicket wants to know.
- [69:49]
B
Oh, no.
- [69:51]
A
Would you consider doing a series? Because I don't think it would fit in one episode of the evidence pertaining to whether or not Jesus is the Messiah.
- [70:04]
B
Yeah, sure. The case for Jesus. There's been, like, lots of books written about. Yeah, absolutely. You know what we should do?
- [70:10]
A
I love when you're just like, yeah, of course we'd do that.
- [70:12]
B
Of course we would. No, absolutely. And it would pass with flying colors. We should do it in Israel. That'll be our documentary idea.
- [70:22]
A
There you go. There you go.
- [70:24]
B
Unfortunately, we wouldn't be like the first ones. We'd be like the 1000th people who've done it.
- [70:28]
A
So, yeah, I would say Alice is really willing to do this and I love her enthusiasm. I don't know that a true crime podcast is the appropriate vehicle for this.
- [70:38]
B
Probably it's not that appropriate. Jesus, it was a crime.
- [70:42]
A
But I would just note that the Bible, if you read your Bible. So Thomas, much like you, and I think he gets criticized for this because I think it's a perfectly rational response. So Thomas, Jesus, you know, doubting Thomas. Jesus crucified. I know. Poor guy. Doubting Thomas.
- [70:59]
B
I know.
- [70:59]
A
Dude ended up being executed as a martyr. We call him Doubting Thomas. Anyways, Jesus is crucified. Everybody thinks he's dead. The Mary's, they head out to the tomb, the doors open, the angels there, why are you looking for the living among the dead, etc. Etc. They run back, they tell the apostles, Jesus has returned. A couple other apostles see Jesus, they come back and say, we've seen Jesus. And Thomas is like, I gotta see some proof, guys. You're telling me I just saw Jesus get crucified. You tell me Jesus rested, I'm gonna need some proof. Unless I put my fingers in the palms and feel the wounds, I'm not gonna believe it. And literally, at least according to the Bible, at that moment, boom, Jesus appears.
- [71:39]
B
He's like, here you go, touch it, Thomas.
- [71:41]
A
Go ahead. Thomas Doubt.
- [71:43]
B
It's like, well, I feel sheepish now.
- [71:46]
A
So Thomas, you know, he obviously, I don't even know if he needs to touch the wounds at that point. But then Jesus says something profound, which is, you've believed because you've seen. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet still believe. That's the thing. You're asking for proof. But even the Bible itself says this is a matter of faith. This is something you believe. This is something that you choose to embrace. And we can give you apologetics and we can talk about Josephus, and we can talk about, you know, witnesses of what Jesus did and the fact that all the apostles died these horrific deaths and never renounced him. We can talk about all this. That Paul, the fact that he leaves being a ruler amongst the Jews to eventually be executed. Rome, there's all sorts of evidentiary things you can point to, but at the end of the day, this is a matter of faith and it's a matter of belief. And you're going to have to find that in your heart, outside of external evidence.
- [72:44]
B
Agree with everything you say there. But the reason I am so willing to engage in that endeavor we probably won't. Because this is a true crime podcast is because while an often criticism is like, oh, just believe. Isn't that what the conspiracy theory is asking me to do? Just believe. Just believe it. While it is faith. And there absolutely is an element of faith. And you can ask all the questions all day long. At the end of the day, there is faith involved. It is also a faith where there are real touch points, things that you can feel and touch. Just like we know that Doubting Thomas needed them.
- [73:19]
A
It's a very Catholic point of view, by the way.
- [73:21]
B
No, we can. We'll see. No, that he's a man who walked on earth, that there are signs that he's walked on earth and that he's not just like some made up human being. So no historian, I think. I mean, there are probably fringe historians. No one disagrees that Jesus was a person who actually lived at this point in time.
- [73:39]
A
Serious. Yes.
- [73:40]
B
No serious historian. Correct. That's what I mean is that this is not. When we say it's all faith, it's not all faith where it's like, well, you just have to believe this person existed. But. But like there's no record of him actually existing in this time. There are independent pieces of. I guess you could call it evidence, if we're talking about it from the prosecutor's perspective, of the things that happened around the time of his life, around the time of the crucifixion and at the time of the resurrection. And then the assumption is all. That's what I mean. It's like. It's not. Faith is absolutely, absolutely. And the Bible says that this is also not a faith where there is nothing physical in which you can point to.
- [74:17]
A
Then you go see the shout of Turin.
- [74:19]
B
That's right, whatever. A great podcast on the shroud of Turin.
- [74:23]
A
Cloth. What do we call that?
- [74:25]
B
Shroud.
- [74:26]
A
Oh, the face cloth.
- [74:28]
B
It's on a shroud. Veronica was like, here is my shroud.
- [74:34]
A
Veronica.
- [74:35]
B
Veronica.
- [74:36]
A
I mean, Veronica.
- [74:37]
B
They call her Veronica, but we don't actually know that her name is.
- [74:40]
A
Well, that's true. Veronica didn't really seem like a very Jewish.
- [74:43]
B
I don't. Yeah, right. We call her Veronica, but she did not, like, run up to Jesus, put her shroud on his face and burning the image, and she's like, I'm Veronica. And then Matthew was like, veronica. You see? This is fun.
- [75:00]
A
Yeah. We can do a religion podcast next. Yeah.
- [75:04]
B
Then everybody will drop off.
- [75:06]
A
There you go. Yeah. All right.
- [75:08]
B
Okay, Great question.
- [75:09]
A
I think that's probably enough question.
- [75:10]
B
I think that shows you that if you leave a five star review, we really will answer any question. No bars over here. And also, if you thought today's episode was great, you should have seen it before the CIA got to us. It was great. Before I got things. We would have revealed on Monday and revised the outline. So, you know, wink, wink. Thanks for sticking around, guys.
- [75:34]
A
All right, guys, well, this has been fun. As always. If you leave a five star review about anything, apparently we will eventually answer it. So do that. Get on Apple. Get on Spotify. If you leave it on Spotify, feel free to email us the question. Leave it on Apple. We'll see it on Apple. Either way, it's always good to read your reviews. We always enjoy them. Hey, we love you guys. We love doing this podcast. It's really awesome. I mean, I don't know if it's because I don't have a job now and I can just, like, enjoy this, but I'm really feeling, like, revitalized in the podcast.
- [76:08]
B
I'm glad you're feeling revitalized. I'm not. So maybe I need to do that. I'm like, maybe I need to do that.
- [76:13]
A
Yeah, there you go. You should. We can starve together. We're going to up that three to five dollars if we're all quitting our job.
- [76:20]
B
I know the middle is going to. You know, that's fine. We'll just. Anyway, do some more religion podcast.
- [76:25]
A
There you go. The religion podcast is going to rock. Let's come up with some good, like Catholic, prot.
- [76:30]
B
Protestant, just like Peter. I am the rock.
- [76:32]
A
There you go. Exactly.
- [76:34]
B
All right.
- [76:36]
A
I don't know Faith and works. I don't know the.
- [76:42]
B
Anyways, now we're just. Now we're just losing our minds versus whatever.
- [76:49]
A
Like the other. The other Latin term is.
- [76:51]
B
I mean, there are a lot of great movies made about conspiracies of the. Of Catholic cults.
- [76:57]
A
And I'll say this. You know John Mulaney. I went and saw John Mulaney live.
- [77:01]
B
That's right.
- [77:01]
A
And John Mulaney made a really good point. He was like, look. He's like, I'm in Alabama. Nobody here is Catholic. All y' all are Protestants in Southern Baptist and everything else. But when one of usobs gets possessed by a demon, where do you go, the Catholic Run into your Baptist preacher? You're not saying, man, we need a guy who gives a good sermon. You're saying we need a priest. And we need one right now. A Roman Catholic priest. That's what he said. I was like, you know what? That's a really good point. True.
- [77:26]
B
We know that from our. The coverages of the exorcist files that we do, so.
- [77:31]
A
Exactly.
- [77:32]
B
They start with the Episcopalians, and they're, like, not cutting it.
- [77:35]
A
Yeah, exactly. There you go.
- [77:37]
B
Oh, my God.
- [77:38]
A
All right, guys, this is awesome. We'll talk to y' all soon. We had a new case for you next week. It's a good one. I'm looking forward to it. You guys will enjoy it as well. But until then, I'm Brett.
- [77:53]
B
And I'm Alice.
- [77:54]
A
And we are the prosecutors. Just do it. Sick.
- [78:17]
B
We just do it sick. Exactly. But I felt that bad. I was like, I don't know, man. I don't want to, like, you know, this could be really bad. And then as I was walking into this room to start recording, I said to Mr. Ellis, he's like, what are you. What are you covering today? And I told him, and he was like, do you have a death wish? So maybe we do. Maybe we.
- [78:36]
A
I don't really.
- [78:37]
B
I don't know.
- [78:37]
A
Conspiracies?
- [78:39]
B
Yeah. You of all people, do not believe in conspiracy theories.
- [78:42]
A
I want to. I want to believe. See, I'm like most of you people out there. I want to believe. But I'm able to put aside my desire to reach truth. Sam.
- [79:52]
B
I believe. I believe.
- [79:54]
A
So do you have the. Do you have the outline pulled up?
- [79:58]
B
Yeah, that.
- [79:58]
A
Do you see this beautiful collage?
- [80:01]
B
Yeah.
- [80:01]
A
Of all the people.
- [80:03]
B
Yeah.
- [80:04]
A
So Chat GPT put this together for me.
- [80:06]
B
Yeah.
- [80:07]
A
And what's awesome about it is not a single photograph is actually of the person.
- [80:23]
B
Sam.
- [80:54]
A
At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto tv. Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free.
- [81:09]
B
Truth is, it's just so Beautiful.
- [81:12]
A
On Pluto TV. Free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 and the X Files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto tv. Stream now. Pay never.
- [81:25]
B
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- [81:40]
A
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