370. The Ghost Train Fire Part 2 of 3

Summary

The Prosecutors Podcast – Episode 370

"The Ghost Train Fire – Part 2 of 3"
Hosts: Brett & Alice
Air Date: July 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In part two of their deep dive into the infamous 1979 Sydney Ghost Train Fire at Luna Park, Brett and Alice focus on the immediate aftermath and the subsequent investigation into the tragedy, examining official explanations, highlighting overlooked evidence, and emphasizing the undervalued humanity of the victims. The hosts dissect the inquest and early claims of accidental or electrical causes, contrast these with actual witness accounts and forensic details, and hint at larger questions of corruption and cover-up raised by journalistic investigations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering the Victims (11:58–20:41)

• Hosts' Approach:

  • Both Brett and Alice praise the ABC docuseries "Exposed: The Ghost Train Fire" for placing the victims and families at the center, dedicating significant time to their stories before delving into sensational theories.
    • Brett: “They spent a good whole episode and a half on the people who died in this… You come to know the victims.” (11:58)
  • The podcast follows suit, spotlighting the seven who lost their lives:
    • John Godson (29) and sons Damien (6) and Craig (4), found huddled together, John trying vainly to protect his boys.
    • Four inseparable Waverley College friends: Richard Carroll, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Billings, and Seamus Raheeli (all 12-13), remembered as kind, adventurous, and tightly bonded.

• Impactful Moment:

  • Jenny Godson’s account, having stepped away moments before for ice cream, only to return and find the ride engulfed, is described as “horrific literary irony… holding cold ice cream while her son and husband are engulfed in the hottest of flames.” (14:43)

“These are all such young, young people… Their last moments were tortuous… they tried everything they could to get out, but there was no hope.” – Alice, (17:48)

2. The Immediate Fire Response and Scene Handling (8:52–11:27; 21:00–22:08)

• Timeline Recap:
  • Fire began around 10 PM, extinguished by midnight.
  • By 2:30 AM, six of the seven bodies had been found; by 5:40 AM, all were recovered.
  • By 3:40 AM, cranes began clearing debris — a rapid move that raised red flags about proper forensic investigation.

    “It seems a little strange that we're already starting to clear debris… There's going to be an investigation.” – Brett, (10:32)

• Early Signs of Mishandling:
  • Detective Doug Knight, leading the case, ordered clearing and disposal of potential evidence within a day – potentially contaminating or destroying crucial clues.

3. The Official Story: Theories and Flaws (27:05–40:45)

• Quick Declaration of “Accidental Fire” (27:05–32:21)

  • Within 24 hours, police announce the fire was an electrical fault, citing “four witnesses” who saw sparks from the wiring.
  • However, investigative journalists reviewed all 24 witness statements: none mention seeing sparks or electrical faults.
  • When asked, those present deny giving any such account.

    “There are police reports that say there are witnesses… There are no witness statements. And the police reports don't name anyone.” – Brett, (29:45)

• The Electrical Fire Theory Debunked (36:23–40:45)

  • The internal electric tracks and all lights, including the main sign, stayed on during the blaze—unlikely in a real electrical short.
  • There were two fuse boxes:
    • North: Fully operational post-fire.
    • South: Right near the fire, yet miraculously intact and unburnt; internal switches undamaged.

    “If the fuse box had been the source… you would expect it to be completely burned out, but that wasn’t the case.” – Brett, (39:52)

• Why These Theories?

  • Hosts examine psychological reasons officials/often families/seek “acceptable” explanations for random, deadly tragedies, a theme explored in true crime more generally.

4. The Flawed and Shallow Inquest (43:34–52:55)

• Timing with Urban Development (43:34–44:50)

  • The Luna Park lease was up in the air. After the fire and inquest, the very valuable land was soon tendered for development, making the loss of the park seem advantageous to potential developers.

• Inquest Details (44:50–51:11)

  • 2.5-week Coroner’s Inquest, led by Kevin Sidney Anderson, aimed to find the fire’s cause.
  • Many key witnesses—especially those whose testimony hinted at arson, kerosene smell, or unusual “bikie” (biker gang) activity—were never called to testify.

    “All of these witnesses showed up thinking they would be called to testify… and one after another… they say that no one called them.” – Alice, (44:59) “25% of the witnesses called to testify… were dismissed without answering a single question.” – Alice, (51:34)

• Coroner’s Finding:

  • Ruled out electrical causes as “most unlikely.”
  • Settled on another accidental cause: a “carelessly discarded cigarette or match by a person riding the train.”

    “It’s complete speculation… There’s no evidence it was a cigarette… It’s better than the electrical fire, but only slightly.” – Brett, (46:49)

5. Overlooked Evidence of Arson (51:11–52:55)

• Evidence Dismissed
  • Multiple witnesses smelled kerosene.
  • Seven witnesses described a suspicious group of bikers; two teenagers overheard bikers bragging about pouring kerosene and lighting a match.
  • None of this testimony was fully aired or investigated—raising the possibility of intentional destruction and hints of a broader cover-up.

6. Questions of Conspiracy and Corruption (56:46–59:19)

• Procedural Failures
  • The hosts express admiration for Australia’s inquest system in theory, but lament its complete failure in this case through rushed, shallow proceedings and a lack of true investigatory rigor.

    “Just dismissing [witnesses] out of hand, never discussing… the possibility of arson? How can you eliminate arson as a possibility without discussing it?” – Brett, (56:48)

• Aftermath & Suspicious Lease Transfer
  • Highly respected Grundy Organization expected to win the Luna Park lease proposal, aiming to restore the park.
  • The lease was abruptly and inexplicably awarded instead to Harborside Amusement—a company that quickly liquidated the park’s assets.
  • This prompts the hosts to preview the next episode’s exploration: Who stood to gain? What were the connections to organized crime and possibly crooked officials or investigators?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Human Cost:

  “Something like this, you never recover from. How can you? Her entire life was ripped away from her in quite literally, you know, seconds.” – Alice, (16:23)

• On the Scene Clearing:

  “All potential evidence trashed within a day of the tragedy.” – Brett, (21:08)

• On Witness Testimony:

  “There are things that shock even those people. Even those people.” – Brett (8:52), discussing the normally reserved Australian witnesses’ reactions to corruption/collusion.

• On the “Cigarette Butt” Theory:

  “If you were smoking a cigarette on the Ghost Train and you wanted to be cheeky, where would you throw your cigarette? Into the fireplace. I mean, that feels like something someone might do… But we don't have anybody doing that.” – Brett, (46:49)

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Important Timestamps

• 11:58–20:41 – Detailed recollection of victims’ and survivors’ stories.
• 27:05–40:45 – Deep dive into police/prosecutors’ handling, witness statements, and debunking of “electrical fault.”
• 43:34–52:55 – Flawed inquest and the suspiciously ignored arson evidence.
• 56:32–59:26 – Aftermath: Lease awarded to suspicious party, preview of organized crime & political corruption angles to come.

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Episode Tone & Style

• Respectful and Empathetic:
  Both hosts take care to honor the memories of the victims, express dismay at the pain inflicted on families, and avoid sensationalism.
• Analytical & Skeptical:
  As prosecutors, Alice and Brett maintain a skeptical, evidence-based approach. They express discomfort with speculative conspiracy theories unless clearly supported by facts—but make clear in this case the paper trail and procedural oddities are well-documented and concerning.
• Conversational & Engaging:
  Some light, personal banter at the episode’s start and end (about travel, accents, “woo woo” topics). Overall focused, inquisitive, and easy to follow for listeners unfamiliar with the case or previous episodes.

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What’s Next?

The episode closes with teasers for part three, promising a look at:

• The real motives for official cover-ups,
• The potential involvement of organized crime and corrupt politicians,
• Further revelations from witnesses long ignored.

“Sometimes conspiracies in the legal, technical sense happen… Crimes happen in which there is a meeting of the minds and actions in furtherance of the conspiracy. And that's what we're gonna talk about next time.” – Alice, (81:12)

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For Listeners:
If you’re new to the case or the podcast, this episode guides you carefully through not only what happened, but why official explanations may be incomplete—or intentionally misleading. The investigation, far from a dry recap, is a respectful retelling aimed at seeking truth and justice for the forgotten victims of one of Sydney’s darkest days.

Transcript

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[Alice]

Hi, I'm Jessi Pere. And I'm Andy. Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.

[Brett]

I'm brett. And I'm alice and we are the prosecut. Today on the Prosecutors, we continue our look at the Ghost train fire. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my Woo Woo co host, Alice. Not that kind of woo woo, but that's fine.

[Alice]

Are there multiple meanings of woo woo?

[Brett]

Woo woo means kind of out there, paranormal, weird, alien stuff.

[Alice]

See, I thought you were saying.

[Brett]

Well, yeah, it's because you got that earring. Got the woo woo. You look a Vegas showgirl or something. Told by the comments.

[Alice]

Only because we were just in Vegas. Which we were, by the way. Still so fun. Two weeks removed. Just getting my voice back from Vegas. What does that say about my old age? I think, or maybe how much I talked.

[Brett]

Guys, this summer's gonna kill me. I was just in Maine. Shout out to all y' all in Maine. Beautiful state. Great. We were in Bar harbor, which my kids, they found out that people call it Ba haba. All they wanted to say was ba haba.

[Alice]

Do they, do they know they have an Alabama accent?

[Brett]

I don't know if they know that

[Alice]

or not because I just think it's really cute that they're, they're not making fun of, but they're delighting in an accent. They're delighting in an accent when others probably delighted in their adorable Southern accent.

[Brett]

Delight in the diversity of our nation.

[Alice]

Okay, I am so getting into America 250. I hope everybody is. But like I, I went grocery shopping today. I bought almost no groceries and bought so much like America paraphernalia.

[Brett]

Maine. I tell you what, Maine, they're so patriotic. There are flags everywhere. And we drove down some out in the middle of nowhere roads because we went all the way up. We basically flew into Boston, did Boston for a day, did some of the patriotic stuff there. Went on the Constitution, did all that stuff. And then we drove to Acadia, which is all the way at the top. So it took a long time and it's in the middle of nowhere. Flags everywhere. They must have spent a fortune on flags. It didn't matter where you were. If there was a lamppost or a power pole, there was a flag on it.

[Alice]

That's cool. Awesome. That's. Well, you know it's flag day. Well, we're recording on a Monday. It was flag day yesterday. I kind of forgot. I'm sorry, but like all these people in town were handing out American flags. I just thought they were being patriotic. And then I realized it was flag day. So my kids were just gathering them up because what does a flag remind you of if you are a six and eight year old boy? You're right, a bayonet. So they were stabbing everyone with our flags. Probably completely sacrilege there. All to say is, I don't know, I'm just really getting in the spirit right now because like 250 is a big deal. I hope we last for another 250 years.

[Brett]

I'm not sure if we're going to semi sesquintennial.

[Alice]

Semi sesquintennial.

[Brett]

Which by the way, I promise this is not an episode of After Dark. And I won't tell you. I have so many stories about Maine. We're talking about Maine.

[Alice]

Maybe we'll do it after dark about it because I want to hear about Maine later.

[Brett]

You can't do it tonight though, because I'm exhausted. But America 250, this is, you know, little things that you just never knew. You go through your whole life not realizing something Very simple. I did not realize until the semi sesquintennial what semi meant. I didn't know it meant half. That's what it means. It means. I know, but I just thought that was kind of like an arc. It didn't go all the way around a semicircle. Like, you tell kids to sit in a semicircle. You're not expecting them to form a perfect half circle. You just. They're just gonna do an arc. And then I was like, oh, so like a semi final. That's why there's. That's when there's four teams, you know, I just. I just thought it was like, we're almost to the final. It's almost a circle, you know, like semi sweet chocolate. Is that half sweet? I just thought it meant. It's not as sweet as really sweet. It's half.

[Alice]

Between the, like, milk chocolate and the dark chocolate. It is half.

[Brett]

I mean.

[Alice]

I mean, it's not like a mathematical half sweetness, but.

[Brett]

Well, what I'm telling you, I understand that this is what it means. That's my whole point. I did not know that's what it meant until.

[Alice]

Okay, because I am not laughing at you. I was the girl who had to ask how many quarters were in a football game. So that's. That's on me. I definitely knew that a semicircle was half a circle. So that semi meant half. I know. Let me just take a poll. I'm curious. People in the chat or whoever's listening, want to write us in. Did you know what that semi meant? Half? Because I did not know that. That was unknown to you and you know everything.

[Brett]

And Joel, as Joel points out, like a semi truck. Is that a half truck? Like, I just always thought it was not a full truck semi truck, you know, because you got to have the thing at the front to pull it. But I don't feel like it's a half truck. But anyways, so, yeah, I never realized it literally meant 50%, and I didn't know that. So, like semi sesquicentennials, like half, which is a stupid. Frankly, I think we should have come with something better. I like America 250 much better. Like bicentennials. Great. America 250 is good. Defining it by half of 500, I don't like. I don't like that.

[Alice]

That is fair, but I don't know. Okay, so anyway, so talk about America. Oh, like, I got this Australian face coming up. I'll show it to you after dark. But I got this, like, cute American red bow Shirt today when I was shopping at the. Not Costco.

[Brett]

I'm sure it's beautiful.

[Alice]

The shirt's beautiful. The experience of being not at Costco is less beautiful. But anyways, okay, enough of me trying to get out of talking about child murders.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Right?

[Brett]

Seriously.

[Alice]

And unfortunately, I think that's where we're headed.

[Brett]

We are headed there. And we're not even talking about America. All this stuff about America. You know, we're gonna talk about Australia, which we love. Australia, Australia. You know, we watched this documentary and as we're watching it, my wife's like, you know, Australians just seem like really nice people.

[Alice]

Like, really nice people. Like, they texted you.

[Brett]

They're really nice people.

[Alice]

Except for the corruption we're about to uncover.

[Brett]

They were bad guys.

[Alice]

All the witnesses. Like, this makes sense that they're like a British colony. So they are all very staid. Like you would reveal something shocking and they respond appropriately. But it's like the great British cooking show, whatever it is, where like something horrendous happens and they'll be like, oh, dear.

[Brett]

Yeah. Whereas I would be cursing news, isn't it?

[Alice]

Right. Wow, that certainly changes my outlook, you know, as opposed to like, well, bleep, bleep, bleep.

[Brett]

Which I will say this. If you watch the documentary, what's interesting is that is true. But there are things in the documentary and eventually we're going to talk about them either now or the next episode. If this goes three, which, given how much lead in we're having, there are things that shock even those people. Even those people. Things happen where they're like, wow, that guy was involved in this. It's like, yeah. So there are twists and turns coming to this. Up to this point, it's just been a tragic case with this fire that happened. We've already debunked one conspiracy theory about it, but the further we go, the more insane it's going to get. Right now, we've been talking about June 9, which is the day of the fire. We're now rolling over into June 10th. Remember, the fire starts 9, 30, 10 o'. Clock. I guess it's around 10 o' clock when the call comes in that this fire is going on. Immediately respond. They're pumping water out of the harbor. They don't extinguish a fire until midnight. It takes them a couple hours to put this fire out. And they're having to put out fires, ancillary fires as well, to ensure that all of Luna park doesn't burn to the ground by two. 36 of the seven bodies have been recovered. Now what's interesting about this, we're only two and a half hours into this now. This is a recovery operation, so obviously that's going to happen. But in the back of everyone's minds has to be we had to figure out what caused this. And yet by 340 there's already a crane on scene that is beginning clearing debris. And given that this is not a typical fire, for all we know it was an accident. For all they knew it was an accident. But there are seven people who are dead, there are many people who are injured. There's going to be an investigation. So it seems a little strange that we're already starting to clear debris. By 5:40 the seventh body has been recovered and the police are able to confirm this is the final death toll by 1215 the next day. So we want to talk a little bit about the victims of this case. We've mentioned them in passing. But like so many of these cases, sometimes the actual people get lost in what happened. And another thing I want to praise about the documentary on this and I just, I don't know what it is, but I watched this documentary and it was so much better than most American documentaries. It was based in facts. They were constantly pointing to their sources, reading to you from their sources, giving you concrete reasons. Great demonstratives, great demonstratives.

[Alice]

Great if this were like in trial, because it is a kind of a complex web we're about to walk through. The documentary made it so clear cut. Remember how we've talked about certain. Like for example, we've talked about serial and the Adnan Syed case where it was kind of jumping around in the timeline to confuse you. There was no jumping around in this documentary. It really actually was very timeline driven so as the watcher could actually follow along, which I really appreciated. That was very starkly different from a lot of American documentaries which is meant for the drama and therefore the skipping around.

[Brett]

And another thing they did that I really appreciated. This is a three part documentary. The first part of the documentary talks about the people and really going in the second half the people a lot. I mean you come to know the victims in this case and they spend a lot of time on it. Where as I think a lot of documentaries, particularly American documentaries, would have just jumped straight into the mystery, the conspiracy, the COVID up, everything like that. But they spent a good whole episode and a half on the people who died in this and in their family. I mean they talked to the parents who are still alive, the brothers the friends, the aunts, the uncles. It's really well done. And we want to talk a little bit about these folks as well. So the victims, we talked about the father and the two sons. That was John Godson and his two sons, Damien and Craig. And when their bodies were found, they were found very close together. It was obvious that John did everything he could to try and protect his children. In that last moment, four boys who died, who were four best friends, we talked about the survivor who was just behind them and was pulled off the ride at the last minute were. It's called Waverly College, but they're young, so it's like a middle school. I think that's what they call middle schools in Australia, colleges. So anyways, four Waverly College students, Jonathan Billings, Richard Carroll, Michael Johnson and Seamus Raheeli. So John Godson, as we said, he was 29 years old at the time of his death. Damien and Craig were 6 and 4. And their family, including their mother, Jenny, we talked about who went to get that ice cream, and that's why she wasn't on the ride with them. They were on a big family vacation to Sydney at the time of the accident. They'd never been to Sydney. This was a really big deal. You know, they went down and saw that parade and they're going to Luna Park. And it was such a big deal for the family. It was one of those things they were going to remember forever. And they had saved for months to be able to take this family vacation. And they'd had this wonderful day, and it's at the very end of the day and they're doing the very last thing. It was basically, kids, what's the last ride you want to do? And the kids want to do the Ghost Train. And so that's what they did. Jenny described her family's life in Warren as a simple, happy one. And her and John loved being parents of the two boys. She was completely fulfilled by motherhood. And she recalled spending days in the backyard under the willow tree, playing with her sons and their beloved basset hound.

[Alice]

And the Ghost Train was supposed to be their last ride of the night. Like we said, it's 10pm they're only 6 and 4. You know, they're getting to stay up late on the special family trip, their first time to Luna Park. But shortly before they get on this last ride, Jenny talks about this. She's like, I don't know what hit me. I just wanted an ice cream cone. And so she turned around and said, okay, I'm gonna go get Me an ice cream cone. Does anyone else want one? While her family stood in line for the ride, and she says they were supposed to wait for her, she was just a couple steps away getting an ice cream cone, and she was gonna bring back ice cream for everybody else. Now, when Jenny turned around with the ice cream cones in her hands, she came back to the ride, and she found that the boys and the dad, they were gone. They'd gone on without her. And at that time, she looked up in horror because not only were they gone, no longer waiting for her, she saw that the ride before her was engulfed in flames. Now, John and the boys were the first victims to be found. He was found on top of one of the boys, shielding him with his body. And obviously, the flames were much too large to do anything there. But his last act was to try and protect his son. And his other son was found just a short distance away from them. And if you remember, one of the ride attendants who had run in trying to save them, he could see the father and the two young sons, and he said that they were all huddled together. So the way that John was found with his two young boys comports with what that attendant last saw before everything went down in flames. And, you know, Jenny is talking about this decades after the fact, and something like this, you never recover from. How can you. Her entire life was ripped away from her in quite literally, you know, seconds. And there's some horrific literary irony here that she is standing there holding cold ice cream while her son and husband are engulfed in the hottest of flames, and she can do nothing to save them. Then there's Richard Carroll, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Billings, and Seamus Raheeli. These were the four best friends who were just 12 and 13 years old at the time of this accident. They did everything together. They went to school together at Waverly College. They hung out together. This was their first time to be able to go to Luna park all. All by themselves that night. This was a big deal for them. They were big kids. Luna park, as their parents said, was a safe place. This was the first time they were going to be there by themselves, and they were just having a good time. Everyone who knew these boys, friends, family, they described them as inseparable, with many people referring to them only as the four amigos because they were always together. And if you're watching right now on YouTube, you can see the pictures of the seven victims. At the top is John, the dad, with his two young boys. And, you know, we say that there's an adult, but he was just 29 years old too. He was barely out of, you know, teenagehood himself. These are all such young, young people and these four boys who were, they look like little kids. They don't look like young men even. They look like boys. And their last moments were tortuous because they were clearly alive for some time and the way their bodies were found. They tried everything they could to get out of there but there was no hope based on the maze and the severity of the flames they were in.

[Brett]

So Richard Carroll, the first of the four boys, I think often described as one of the leaders. He was described as a happy boy who lived a wonderful life with his four siblings. He, he was caring and absolutely adored his sister and younger brother. When his little brother would get scared at night, Richard would often crawl in bed with him and sleep there to comfort him. Richard loved swimming and skiing and excelled in academics. His friends were extremely important to him and a fixture in his life. Richard was going to go on to do amazing things. I think that's pretty clear. And you know, somebody on the gallery was talking about how they saw the ghost train fire in the title and think, oh, this will be another sort of fun case along the lines of dial off pass or the Mary Celeste. It's like, nope, nope. It's absolutely horrific. And when you talk about these kids and you see their families, you realize that Michael Johnson was, as his younger sister described, the golden child. He was the first child and grandchild in his family. His sister remembers him as caring and protective, particularly of her. He was extremely smart with fantastic grades and she remembers everyone who knew Michael loved him, especially their grandma who watched the siblings while their parents worked.

[Alice]

And Jonathan Billings was described by his father as a caring and sensitive boy with a great sense of humor. He loved his friends, school, surfing and football. He was self sufficient and often went the extra mile to care for his parents. His dad tells this sweet memory in the mornings before he would go to school, he would come into his parents room and ask them if they wanted tea and then he'd bring in tea for them before he left for the day. I don't think my kids could make tea and certainly wouldn't think about it to bring to me. But this was the kind of kid that Jonathan was and his dream was adventure filled. He wanted to go to Africa once he finished school and he once said in a paper that he wanted to go there to shoot animals but he specified the only thing he was going to shoot them with was a camera because he loved animals and it just shows Kind of his sense of adventure, but also his tender heart. Seamus Raheeli was remembered by his friend Jason, the boy who was sitting behind them and narrowly survived the ghost train fire, as a beautiful boy who was always smiling. Seamus loved rugby and sailing, and even at his young age, had a very strong sense of right and wrong. He was quiet, but was always looking out for his friends.

[Brett]

And we talked about Jason. He was with the boys that night. He was a little bit younger, but he was. He's a good friend. He was kind of their mascot. And he's very prominent in the documentary. I think he had wanted to do a documentary for a while. He'd been in entertainment, he'd been in film. But it is one of those things where he would start it and it was just too personal, he recalls. And as we said before, he was right there. It was a miracle that he was saved. But if they'd gotten there 30 seconds earlier, he would have died. If they'd gotten there 30 seconds later, all of them would have lived. But he's pulled out right at the last moment, even as the other four boys are going through the door, into the tunnel and into the flames. So at this point, the bodies have now been removed from the fire, and the police, you would think, would now begin a thorough forensic investigation to identify the source and cause of the fire. But that didn't happen. As we said, the crane had already gone up at around 3 o', clock, and they immediately go to work clearing debris from the scene. And in fact, the entire scene was cleared and all potential evidence trashed within a day of the tragedy. And in fact, it was Detective Doug Knight who was leading the investigation, who gave the orders to clear the scene. And we'll talk more about him later.

[Alice]

Guys, I know you've heard us talk about our favorite blankets of all time, Lola blankets. But I just have to come back to it because now, now I realize that it's not just my favorite blanket. Basically, everyone who comes to my house, it's their favorite blanket now. So now it is my go to gift for everyone in my life. Close friend, distant friend, family member, barely a relative. It's the perfect gift. I love how you can pick whatever design to pick your friend or your family member's decor, and you can make it fit into anyone's home. Truly, every guest who comes over immediately asks me, where is this blanket from? And all I have to say is, Lola. Before they pull out their phone and start looking for one themselves. Lola is the number one blanket in the world, crafted with ultra soft luxury faux fur and a signature four way stretch that people instantly obsess over the second they touch it. It's machine washable, double hemmed and built to last for years, making it a truly meaningful long term gift and it stays flawless. I have 4 kids but still my Lola blanket has no shedding, no pilling, no delicare worries which make it a gift people can actually enjoy every day. And I just love gifting it because it is the most luxurious gift and everyone across the board loves it. And Lola isn't just a blanket, it's a home upgrade gift. It instantly elevates any space. I put away all my other blankets as it gets warm, but not my Lola blanket because it is just a fixture and in my living room for a limited time. Our listeners can get 40% off select Lola blanket products with Code Prosecutors at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code Prosecutors after you purchase they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in Luxury with Lola Blankets every day. I'm either running from court or running to record a podcast episode and then doing pickup line for my first four kids. I need to be comfortable, but I also need to feel supported. Enter HoneyLove. I love Honey Love and they are my go to bra in shapewear now. I wear them all the time and it can go from evening wear to just hanging around the house. It's that comfortable. I love how supportive and comfortable their bras are. At a certain point, ladies, our bodies just change and the bras you used to love stop working the same way. But honeylove's bras I love because there's no slipping, no constant adjusting, just a secure, flattering fit that actually stays in place. Honeylove is an independent female founded brand. All honeylove products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them, including founder Betsy, who's highly involved in the development of each product. And let's be honest, finding the right bra as you get older can feel frustrating. What used to work just doesn't anymore. I want lift, shape and support, but without those stiff wires digging in or bulky padding that feels outdated. That's exactly where honeylove stands out. Their bras are designed to provide lift and structure using innovative bonding technology instead of uncomfortable underwire so you get that secure lifted feel without the poking, pinching or constant adjusting. I love the new Crossover Contour bra because it combines their best selling wireless design with molded foam cups to help create a smooth, smooth, natural shape. Especially helpful for mature breasts that may want a little extra structure and support. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off [e-mail] prosecutors that's honeylove.com prosecutors after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with honeylove.

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[Alice]

when you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. So less than 24 hours after the fire started at 3pm, police announced that they believed the fire was caused by an electrical fire fault. In other words, an accident. In the press release, police referenced four witnesses who all claimed to have seen sparks and flames coming from the roof's electrical wiring system of the ghost train shortly before the fire began. Now, interestingly, in an ABC docu series, journalists went through all 24 witness statements and not one of them mentioned seeing this. Obviously, the press release doesn't specify who the four witnesses are, but the witness reports from this time were reviewed, and none of them mention the sparks coming from the wiring system.

[Brett]

And that docu series, we've talked about it a lot, just to remind you, is called Exposed the Ghost Train Fire. And it's incredible. We've talked about a lot. We're going to continue to talk about it. I mean, I hate to keep going back to it, but it's just really good and it gives so much color to this. And it's really interesting because we talk all the time about these cases. You know, when we did the Gunther stole case a few weeks ago, and think about that case, there's a conspiracy theory there, and actually have an update on that case, which maybe we can do at the end of this episode. There's a conspiracy theory there. But even as we talked about in that episode, it's driven really almost by a lack of information. We don't know a lot about him before it happened. There's a lot of mystery about who the witnesses were and what they saw and when they saw it and everything else. In this case, the documentary, it's so different because the stories and the possibility that this was intentional, that maybe this was even covered up. It's not speculation. It's not. We heard rumors. It's not. This couldn't have happened this way. It must have been something else. There's no way this could have just been an accident. Everything is based on actual reporting and evidence. And one of the things they do, they talked to all these people who were in the Ghost Train immediately before this happened. People who were in there when the attendant came in and got them out. The people. You remember how there's that fake fireplace and the one woman reaches her hand out and realizes it's actually on fire, but doesn't think the whole place is on fire, just thinks, well, that's weird. They get a real fire in there, and she goes on. They talk to her. They talk to the people who really were the first people to see the fire start. The ones who ran out to the attendant, the ones who told the attendant the place is on fire and got him to stop the train and probably save Jason's life through their actions. They talked to them and they asked all of them, did you see the sparks? Did you see any sparks? And all of them say, no, none of them saw anything like that. And so they all confirmed that wasn't me. Whoever said that it wasn't me. And as Alice said, there are reports, there are police reports that say there are witnesses that said this, that There are no witness statements and the police reports don't name anyone. Which is given the importance of this fact and given that there's going to be an inquest or people are going to testify, you would expect that the names of the main witnesses would be listed somewhere, but they're not. They're not listed in any of this documentation. And when you think about every case, it seems to stay these days. Everything that happens, it just doesn't even matter anymore what it is or how obvious it is. Everything's a conspiracy. People have conspiracy theories about every single thing that happens, every single case that comes up. And if you're out there and you're trying to figure out, well, you know, I don't want to be naive. I don't want to think conspiracies never happen. I don't want to think conspiracies are impossible. What do I do? How do I figure this out? Well, one thing you can look for is actual evidence of a cover up. An example of that would be if you think the police are messing with a case. When you see inexplicable things in the reports where it seems like the police are manufacturing something and they don't even have anyone to back it up, there's no person that they can point to, but they're giving this statement that this is an electrical fire. And this is not speculation on our part. We're not just saying there's no way an electrical fire could do that because you see that a lot too. Something terrible happens and people want someone to blame. You know, we talked about the Flora fire that might have been arson. I think there's a strong case for that with some sort of accident, maybe negligence on the part of the owners, but some sort of electrical thing caused that. I think there's strong evidence of that. People naturally rebel against that because they want someone to blame, someone to bring to justice. It sucks when it's just an accident. I'm ranting here, but Alice, did you ever watch csi?

[Alice]

A little bit. So just enough to know about the CSI effect.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Brett]

Well, there was a CSI episode. It's actually based, I think on the case of Australia. But there was a CSI episode and it was really interesting because this college girl dies in this really mysterious way. They find her body in a landfill and they're trying to figure out what happened. And spoiler alert, I mean, this episode's 25 years old, so. But at the end, what they figure out happened was she was moving out of her dorm room, she was dumping her trash down the trash chute. She accidentally drops the trash can, goes down the trash chute. Well, she realizes if she doesn't get the trash can back, she's going to lose her deposit because it goes with the room. So she goes down to where the dumpster is and she's like digging around in the dumpster to get the trash can. At the same time, this guy whose wife is pregnant and is in labor, is taking a shortcut down this alleyway. And as he's driving down the alleyway, he bumps the dumpster, doesn't realize this girl is like halfway in it. And when he does that, the door like, to the dumpster falls and whacks her on the head, knocks her out. And then she ends up, you know, they take the trash and she basically dies in the dumpster, right? Then her body ends up in the landfill. And so it appears to be this just tragic accident. So at the end of the show, the end of the episode, they explain exactly what happened to her parents. This is exactly what happened. Here's all the evidence, how it went down, everything. And her parents, like, there's no way that happened. We'll never believe that. We're hiring a private investigator to figure out the truth. And the main guy, who's this very sort of like scientific, not emotional guy, he just can't understand why they would think that. And then one of his associates, who's a little bit more cued in to human emotions, basically explains to him, like, they want someone to blame. Like, they can't believe that something like that would kill their daughter. And you see that a lot with accidents. You see that a lot with suicides. People don't want to believe it. The difference here is it's not just, how could seven people be killed by an electrical accident in a train. We actually have evidence. We're about to talk about proving that that didn't happen. Sorry, I ran it for a long time there. Did you have anything you wanted to say?

[Alice]

No, I think that's exactly right. Over time, we've gained the reputation of being cold water prosecutors because we shoot down conspiracy theories that may sound interesting. And sometimes we've said, if there's no answer for something, then we have to look to extraordinary circumstances because none of the typical circumstances or reasons explain what we see before us. Kind of like Dyatlov Pass. This is singularly interesting because what we are about to talk about may sound like a conspiracy theory, except it is absolutely documented within a paper trail the fact that this all still exists and you can verify this will point to verifiable lies that were happening at the time. And they're verifiable. Now. These were documents at the time of the investigation, at the time of witness statements, not found, quote, unquote, or remembered decades later. The extraordinary thing about this is what we're going to read to you all was invest or lack of investigation was documented at the time of this accident. Because oftentimes, as conspiracy theories take root, you'll see that someone will suddenly find new evidence or find a new witness who remembers something, and they never came forward 40 years ago. Not the case here. We have a lot of people who are willing to talk, by the way, on camera. That says a lot. Multiple witnesses appear in this ABC docu series who have never talked about this publicly before. They've talked to law enforcement, but they've never talked publicly about it. And to be able to get them all on camera to talk about their memory and to confirm what they told police at the time is some of the best investigative journalism I've ever seen.

[Brett]

So they. Within 24 hours, they're saying this is an accidental fire. This was caused by faulty electrics. Well, this, you know, makes sense. It's the 70s, the late 70s or whatever. Electrical fires happen all the time. So maybe that's what it is. The problem is, even the barest review of this allegation doesn't hold up to scrutiny. For one thing, if this was an electrical issue, the problem you have is the track was still running. The track, everything there is electric. The track's electric. The lights are electric throughout the fire. Even when the fire is at its peak, all of the internal lights are still working. There are these images that were taken by a tourist, and we've shown some on YouTube. If you watch on YouTube, there are these images that show this fire just in full flame. I mean, looks like hell on earth. The fire is going just at an incredible rate. And even is that is happening even as the fire is raging, the lights are still on. The ghost train sign is still lit up. If this was an electrical fire, you wouldn't expect that. You would expect that the electrical shorting out and then the fire starting in the wiring would have very quickly caused electricity to fail. But that never happens. The police theorize that the fire started in one of the fuse boxes. This is their theory. The problem is there are two fuse boxes, One in the north, one in the south. The northern fuse box was still fully operational even after the fire. So it was ruled out as a source. That pushed the police to the Southern fuse box as the source. So let's look at whether or not that is likely or even possible. So first, and we've talked about this before, There were witnesses who rode on the ghost train in one of the final rides before the fire had taken hold, before it had spread anywhere, who noticed what looked like real flames in the fake fireplace. These flames were basically pieces of fabric that were blown into the air by a blower beneath. But that night, they appeared to be incredibly realistic. And in fact, they were, because, as we said, someone reaches out, feels the heat of the flame, actually pulls their hand back. Now, the thing that's interesting about this, if a fire was going to start anywhere, the fireplace is actually a pretty good place for it to start. Number one, it kind of looks like a fireplace, so people might not notice. But number two, what does fire need to spread? It needs oxygen, wind. Exactly. And what do you have in the fireplace? You have a blower underneath it blowing up through these flames. You would imagine, if you wanted to, say, start a fire, that this would be a really good place to start one. Now, this fireplace is fairly close to the southern fuse box. If you look at a map of the ghost train, basically, the southern fuse box is on the southern wall, which is where you'd expect it to be. The fireplace is probably halfway across the ghost train. So go about halfway, you get to the fireplace, Go the other halfway, you'd hit the northern wall. So, you know, it's like, okay, it's not that close, but maybe somehow there's some sort of spark from the southern fuse box. The southern fuse box catches on fire, the fire spreads to this fireplace. That's the first place it's seen. But the southern fuse box is actually on fire. And maybe the light stayed on because they're all connected to the northern fuse box. The problem here is, in almost a miracle, the southern fuse box, which is right where the fire is happening, is completely intact at the end of all this, Especially compared to the rest of the ride. If you see photos of this, everything around the fuse box is burned to the ground. The fuse box is still there. Now, you would expect if the fuse box had been the source of the fire, it would been completely burned out, but that wasn't the case. Several firefighters who were on scene that night were interviewed and shown photos of that fuse box the next day, and they agreed in their professional opinions that it was very unlikely that it could have been the source of the fire. And as we said, even as the fire is raging, the lights are on, including that Haunting image of the ghost train sign still glowing even as the fire is burning this ride to the ground.

[Alice]

And if you think about this, if you've seen a fuse box or you think about your electrical boxes at home, it's usually encased in a metal box with a cover. That's exactly what the case is here. And so if the fire were external to it, the purpose of that box is to protect the wiring so that if something like this happens, the fuse box can still stay protected. But if it's coming from internal, if you've ever had any. A fuse blow, like, I remember I plugged in something one time and it like blew the fuse. And the fuse, the like little outlet as well as my charger plug in, all turned black because it exploded. Right? It was very dangerous. But you would expect the inside of the fuse box, because it's coming from the inside, would have blown out. There's a picture. And it wasn't even that someone took a picture of the fuse box. It happened that someone had taken a picture of the completely demolished area as it was being cleared. And you have to zoom in and see that the only thing standing there was the fuse box. So it's not that someone had the foresight to take a picture of the fuse box. No one was trying to debunk this theory later. By a miracle, this fuse box was captured before it was completely flattened by the demolition crew. And there's another picture of it where the box is opened. And you know how you have switches. If you think of your own electrical box, the little switches are still white, like they're still. They haven't been burned out because the COVID had been on it. That's how intact this box is. It's not just a little bit intact. It looks like it would still be functioning if it were not surrounded by inferno debris. So that is the state of things right now. But again, this wasn't investigated at the time. It was just said, well, it must have been a fuse box, it must have been wiring. Fast forward to July 31, 1979. So the government who owned the land where Luna park was situated called for new tenders to lease the land. This waterfront location on the Sydney harbor, next to the bridge and across from the famous opera house, made it an extremely desirable location to local developers. From August 13th through the 29th of 1979. The Coroner's Court of New South Wales held an inquest during this time before coroner Kevin Sidney Anderson. And the purpose of this inquest is to figure out what happened, what started the Fire. Note that this is happening about a month or so after the fire and also after the time that a new lease for the land is basically being advertised. And if you look at a picture, like an aerial picture of this area, you can see that everywhere around Luna park is developed essentially with high rises and businesses. And it sticks out in that. It's the only strip of this area that is not developed like a business commercial zone. It's just a theme park.

[Brett]

And remember, even before this happened, the lease was sort of in question. It was, it was like month to month or whatever, but the people running the park were holding on to it, they weren't going to give it up. And then you have this fire, this horrific, tragic fire, and guess what? Now all of a sudden, the ability to develop that land, that's been the side of amusement park 40 years. Well, back when the land probably wasn't worth much of anything, you know, now all of a sudden it's worth a ton. I used to live in dc. I used to live on the waterfront in DC back before it was developed. Then it was a ghost town, you know, and there were just all these abandoned buildings on the water and everything. If I had bought some land there, I would have made a fortune because now it's this massive development. It's a similar thing. You have this property, there's nothing on it. In that case, they were able just to buy up that property and build it. But here you have someone who holds the lease who is not interested in selling, they're not interested in giving up the lease, they're not interested in letting the government do something else with it. And it's so valuable and anyone who sees it knows how valuable that land would be.

[Alice]

And so this inquest does go on for about two and a half weeks. What do you expect to happen in an inquest? It's an investigation. It's like a public investigation. The way Australia does it, they call witnesses and they're asked questions about what they saw so that the coroner can make findings of fact to figure out what happened here. And interestingly, when you watch the docu series, there were many witnesses to this fire. Not just witnesses to the fire at the park, but people who were on the ride as the flames were starting, people who were pulled from the ride, people who are watching it burn. All of these witnesses showed up thinking they would be called to testify. And one after another in the docu series, decades later, they say that no one called them, no one called them to testify. They had very important information. They were Firsthand witnesses of this fire, about where they saw the fire in that fake fireplace, about what was developing, that the lights were on, these sorts of things, and none of them were called for the inquest. And just a few days after the inquest concludes, On September 3, 1979, the coroner issued his findings. He found that, quote, the cause of the fire cannot conclusively be stated. Now, he did refute the police's earlier claim that the fire was due to an electrical fault. Calling that most unlikely. He reasoned that the most likely explanation was actually ignition of flammable litter by a cigarette or match carelessly or recklessly discarded by a person riding on the train. So note even though the electrical fault, which seems very improbable based on the fuse boxes and the electrical tracks continuing to run, he dispels that. He says that's not true. But he then goes on to make a finding that it's most likely a different type of accident caused by negligence. People smoked all the time in the 70s. This was a discarded cigarette butt that caused the ignition of this horrible fire.

[Brett]

And look, I give him credit for rejecting the police's proposed theory because not only is there no evidence for the police's proposed theory, there's evidence against the police's proposed theory. I think he should have questioned more extensively why the police claim there are four witnesses who said this and then could not produce them or even produce who they were. I think that's a big issue that he probably should looked into. But I will at least give him credit for saying this was an electrical fire. But then he does something almost, almost as bad by speculating by the cigarettes. Now, there's not the same kind of evidence against it being a cigarette, but there's no evidence that it is a cigarette. I mean, it's complete speculation. We talk about this a lot on this podcast. People often do this with cases. Well, maybe it was this. Well, I mean, maybe it was. Do you have any reason to think it was? You have anything to point to that would make that likely? I mean, yeah, people smoked a lot back in the 70s. If you've seen the documentary, the people who rode the ride said they didn't see anybody smoking, which I think significant. I think the people who were on at the time didn't see anybody smoking significant. They said a few things which weren't as convincing to me, like, well, you know, the ride was really jerky and you had to hold on. And who would smoke cigarette in that circumstance? People who smoke, you know, they're the ones who would do that. Oh, there was a no smoking sign outside of it. Okay. I'm sure that would stop them. Right. So there are a couple things that I think are interesting. I do think I can imagine a situation. If you were smoking a cigarette on the Ghost Train and you wanted to be cheeky, where would you throw your cigarette? Into the fireplace. Now I can imagine that. I mean, that feels like something someone might do. But we don't have anybody doing that. We don't have anybody seen anybody doing it. Obviously, nobody ever admitted to doing it. It's better than the electrical fire, but only slightly. There's not a ton of evidence for it. I don't think you can totally rule it out, though. The things that we're going to talk about as we continue to look at this make me think it is most unlikely, in the words of the corner, that a cigarette caused this fire. But one thing he did point out, which I think is legitimate, and I do think the documentary didn't talk enough about this. There is some real liability on the part of the park because there were safety measures that could have been taken, basic safety measures that weren't taken. There should have been sprinkler systems in this place. There should have been lighted emergency exits in this place. These were things that they were told to do that regulators didn't really follow up on, that they did not do. And the coroner did say this was a breach of the duty of care. He said it wasn't the high degree of negligence necessary to support a charge involving criminal negligence. But I think civilly, I don't know if lawsuits were ever pursued in this case or not. And I don't know exactly what the laws are in Australia and how that works. I think in the United States that certainly would have led to lawsuits, most likely successful lawsuits. So he does point that out, and I think that's true. Whatever happened in this case, part of the responsibility does fall on the owners of Luna Park. But even though he got it right, you feel like on the electrical system, and even though he's right about the liability the owners might have had, there was a large portion of the public who did not buy his cigarette theory. And as more information came out, that theory seemed less and less likely. Several witnesses were called smelling kerosene, which is a common accelerant in the Ghost Train ride. Talk more about that later. There are also seven different witnesses who came forward describing a bunch of biker type people, call them bikies in Australia. Bikies hanging out around the ride. Suspiciously, two teenagers who were Staying in a local youth refuge, even heard the bikers discussing how they had poured kerosene on the ground and lit a match. And there was an attendant who reported feeling uneasy when a group of bikers matching the same description rode on the ghost train just 10 minutes before the fire started.

[Alice]

And by the way, these statements were taken close in time to the investigation. So again, these were not witnesses who came forward decades later. It was within the day, really. The two teenagers who were at the local youth refuge, which means that they were homeless, essentially. They were not with their families, in other words, a vulnerable population. They spoke to police that day. And amazingly, decades later, the docu series finds them. And they completely confirm what they originally told the police as well. I mean, this is really incredible follow up that this docuseries is able to do. And they TALK ON camera. So despite all of these witness statements pointing to potential arson, the kerosene people being a little suspicious, who were described in detail by multiple different witnesses, there's no questions asked about arson and it wasn't mentioned as a potential option at all in any of the 190 page inquest. Additionally, over 25% of the witnesses called to testify at the inquest, including many who would have supported the arson claim, were dismissed without answering a single question. They showed up, were ready to be called, but were never called. So this is really a shallow inquest. And the shady reputation of Doug Knight, we'll talk more about him later, left the public wondering if perhaps something bigger was at play here. Maybe this wasn't an accident. Maybe it was a murder and the police were covering it up. But of course, what evidence do we have for that? And the biggest question, why? Why would they possibly cover this?

[Brett]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Guys, we talk about mental health. We talk about it on the show all the time. We're much more open about it. But asking for help can still feel hard. And Better Help's latest research confirms it. BetterHelp recently released their 2026 State of Stigma report. They surveyed 2000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. Guys, we got to leave this stigma behind. There are always times where we need help, where we just need someone to talk to, where reaching out can be the difference between being happy, pursuing our goals and not being able to do so. BetterHelp is there to help you. With over 30,000 therapists, Better Help is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. And BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does

[Alice]

the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. They just have a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means that they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp sign up and get 10% [e-mail] prosecutors that's better h e l p.com prosecutors

[Brett]

this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Guys, we talk about mental health. We talk about it on the show all the time. We're much more open about it. But asking for help can still feel hard and Better Help's latest research confirms it. BetterHelp recently released their 2026 State of Stigma report. They surveyed 2,000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. Guys, we got to leave this stigma behind. There are always times where we need help, where we just need someone to talk to, where reaching out can be the difference between being happy pursuing our goals and not being able to do so. BetterHelp is there to help you. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. And BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does

[Alice]

the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. They just have a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience. Experience an industry leading match fulfillment rate means that they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored rex. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com prosecutors that's better h e l p.com prosecutors.

[Brett]

And we're going to talk more about that as we continue to go along. But the inquest bothers me in a lot of ways. You know, I wish we did more of this style of investigation in the United States.

[Alice]

I think this would be a grand jury.

[Brett]

Yeah, I think it would be really valuable in a lot of the cases we talk about, frankly, I think there's a lot of cases where there's suspicion and mystery and you think you might have some idea about who did it, where bringing people in to talk in front of a judge would be really valuable. Now, I think some of that is made more difficult by the Fifth Amendment, the right to not incriminate yourself. You know, if you think about the Lady Vanishes and that whole thing where they find the guy who they think did it and they have the inquest and he's called, yes, testify, testifies for days. Obviously you can't do that in the United States, so maybe it'd be difficult. But I really like that system here, though. It seems like it completely failed. Two weeks is, you know, I mean, that's a long time, I guess, to talk about something that happened. It's not like they did it in a day, but seven people died in this number one. Seven people died in this number two. You have some obviously questionable actions by the police, the speed with which the place was cleaned up, the fact the police seem to be pointing to witnesses who don't exist to give a relatively benign reason for this fire. That's troubling. Hear from all the witnesses, like, take the time to have those people come up and testify. If it becomes obvious that they don't have anything to add, which happens, go ahead and tell them, you know what? Appreciate you're coming up here, but we've got it. You can go ahead and go. I mean, that happens in trials sometimes where you have duplicative testimony. The judge will eventually step in and say, you know, okay, counselor, do you have anything to add with this witness? And no, okay, we're going to go. But just dismissing them out of hand, never discussing even the possibility of arson. How can you eliminate arson as a possibility without discussing it? And maybe if you discuss it and you really pore through the evidence and you look at the facts, you would come to the conclusion it was an arson. And then if you've eliminated arson, you've eliminated electricity, electrical faults, then maybe the cigarette really is the best. It's not lightning that day. You know, there's no fire. Didn't just burst out of nowhere. Had to have some cause so cigarette sounds good, but without eliminating arson, I don't know how you then just throw that out there. Well, maybe it was a cigarette. And it's just unfortunate that none of these people testified. This in the mind of the government at the time though, is kind of the end of it. It's been investigated, we've looked into it. We held a two week inquest. What more do you want? It was an accident. Sorry this happened. Everybody move home. That's kind of the story. And so now everyone turns to what's going to happen with this property. So at this point, it's November 1979. And the Grundy organization, which is a well respected media entertainment operation in Australia, they're very interested in Luna Park. They're very interested in continuing it as an amusement park. They have a lot of sway and pull. They're a respected organization, they have lots of resources and they put in what everyone views as the top bid for the lease to Luna Park. And everyone expects they're going to get it because number one, they have the resources to actually do this. They have a commitment to maintaining it in the sort of historic shape that it's in. Because at this point, it's a Sydney staple. It's a landmark there. It's not just an amusement park, it's a part of Sydney. They can do that. They have a plan for how to do it. Everything about their proposal seems to be the best proposal. And the Grundy organization, up until the day that they are supposed to be issued this lease, expects they're going to get it and are preparing to do so. But then out of the blue and for no apparent reason, the deal falls through and there's not that much explanation. And the government asks for more bids. More bids come in and the land is eventually leased to the Harborside Amusement, a company owned by Hal and Cole Goldstein. Going to talk more about them later. Now, just like the Grundy organization, they had come in with this lease promising to preserve the amusement park. Instead, almost immediately after taking it over, they auctioned off almost everything there, destroying a piece of Sydney history in the process. So that brings us to the end of 1979 when this happened. I think this is a good place to stop because the next episode we're going to talk about things that happened in subsequent years which led people to question the official narrative that the government had given them. Made them ask questions about who exactly is Harborside Amusement? Who exactly is involved in that organization? What was Doug Knight, the lead investigator up to? Who were some of the other police officers who led the investigation. What about the premier at the time, who's essentially the Governor of the state of New South Wales? What was his involvement? What were his connections to other people? And were there people in organized crime who may have had connections and may have also had the motive, the means and the opportunity to commit an act of arson? We're going to talk about all that in the next episode, whether or not this actually is an arson or not. We'll give you our final conclusions on this case. We'll finish with the next episode. I think that's definitely going to happen. We'll go through the evidence, we'll go through some of the things that we've touched on briefly up to this point. But we did want to spend a lot of time, and I think we did, talking about the people who lost their lives here, because that is something that should never be forgotten. And I feel like it was forgotten very early on here. I feel like the inquest is proof of that, the inquest. I don't want to cast aspersions necessarily on the Corner because I don't think there's any evidence that the Corner was covering anything up, at least intentionally. If there is, I haven't seen it. Maybe it's out there. Shoot me an email with it. But I do think there was a rush to close this up, move on and forget about it, to move past it, to point to a cause and to keep moving. And that rush to end this investigation, I think left open the possibility for a cover up. All right, well, one thing before we move on to our ordinary post episode things we talked about Gunther Stahl earlier and we got an interesting email and I want to do a follow up on that case because as we said, this was the case, if you may recall, where there was the Yahsi note. He's sort of eureka moment for Gunther. He rushes out, he ends up going to the bar, he hits his head, he gets in his car, there's a car wreck. Some people come upon him, they see someone apparently running off. Then years later, the police open an inquest and they conclude this is probably a one car accident. So we got an email from someone in Germany. That's why this is always so helpful. So as we said, this was reported around the world when the German police opened this investigation and then eventually closed it again. But you couldn't read the report, they didn't release the report and it was very sort of vague. We didn't really know. Well, this individual, because they're in Germany, watched A television interview in German, obviously with one of the lead investigators. And so he wanted to make sure it's a he. Andreas, I assume Andreas is a man. He wanted to share with us some of what they talked about on this television interview. So going to give you what he says and hopefully this will be helpful to you as well. So it turns out that in this interview they noted that his shoes and clothes, which he claims were found in the Volkswagen. Now, you may remember, every report we looked at, his clothes were never found. According to this interview, they did find his clothes. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what they said. I don't know why they would be like. Also, adhesive tape lifts from his body were kept. The headliner and the seat cushions were kept in the evidence room of the police in Hagen. So obviously they didn't have the whole car. But we speculate about this. Did they keep the car? Did they keep parts of the car? It seems like they did keep parts of the car. And the parts they kept, they did not find any DNA evidence of a third person. Doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there, but they did actually test some things, so we can confirm that. So we said the initial report was that he was run over by a vehicle, that it wasn't the cause of a car crash. Well, apparently the person who issued that was not actually a medical examiner. So it was someone who did forensic vehicle examination. So someone who's familiar with car wrecks but wasn't a medical examiner. So not as good as if it had been a medical examiner who said that. So it makes you think maybe not. There were injuries. He had a wound to his right arm so severe it was nearly torn off. They were compatible with an impact on a tree. So this sort of helped this idea that maybe it was a car wreck. So the truck drivers, remember we talked about the truck drivers who saw the person walking off. The theory there is that it actually was Gunther. That's the theory that he gets thrown out of the vehicle. The windshield apparently was broken. He gets thrown out of the vehicle. He's wandering around. The truck drivers see him wandering around, think it's a third person running off, and he then crawls back into the car. I don't know about that. That seems a little bit of a stretch, but nevertheless, it's possible. Now, as of the four passengers, we talked about how small the car was. Other problem, his daughter's baby seat was in the car. Makes it even less likely there are four passengers in the car. Now, this is what Gunther said as he's dying. So there are four people with him. I think that makes it less likely. So there are a few facts from a police interview in Germany given to us by a German listener that can help further color your thoughts on that case. It does seem like the police had reasons for the conclusions they reached. If anyone else is in Germany and you have other thoughts on this, this is wonderful. This is exactly what we want. We want people who are able to get information we can't get because even if he attacks the interview, it's in German. Not very helpful to me, but nevertheless, glad he sent it. I'm happy to send it to anybody who speaks German if they want to watch it. But thank you to him. Thank you for that follow up. We're always happy to add this information whenever we get it.

[Alice]

Yes, thank you for that. No, that's just incredible. We have, I think, the smartest listeners. Like, it was a wonderfully written report of what he saw.

[Brett]

Yes, thank you so much for that. Really appreciate that. All right, so we talked about the ghost train. We talked about Gunther Stoll. If you have thoughts on either of those cases, feel free to shoot us an email. So we actually do read our emails. I know it's probably a shocker, but we do read them, even if we don't always respond. I did respond to this one because it was very helpful. Shoot us an email. Prosecutors pod gmail.com@ ProsecutorsPod for all your social media. If you want to hit us up on the gallery, which is our fan run, fan created Facebook page, do so. We love talking to you guys there. If you want to watch us record these episodes, can join Patreon for as little as $3 a month. You also can get the episodes early and ad free with that same Patreon membership. Or if you don't like Patreon, we now offer our episodes early and ad free on Apple. You can do an Apple subscription, but as always, you'll get it all eventually anyway. But it will be covered up in advertising, so which makes us all happy. All right, Alice, do you want to answer a question? I feel like I've talked a lot.

[Alice]

Let's do it.

[Brett]

Yes.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Okay.

[Brett]

Let's answer a question. Alice is like, shut up, Brett.

[Alice]

No, not at all. This was interesting stuff. I just wish you wouldn't talk all over me, says the one star reviews.

[Brett]

She kept trying to interrupt and I was like, no, it's true. I am speaking. Yeah.

[Alice]

I just can't get over the fact you didn't know what semi meant.

[Brett]

I'll never admit weakness again.

[Alice]

Never again.

[Brett]

Never again. If you're gonna make fun of me. All right, let's see. Let's get a question. I'm gonna ask one that's mostly to Alice because I feel like I talked a lot.

[Alice]

Oh, no, no, you people love hearing you talk. There's nothing wrong with that. This is. This is a team, Brett.

[Brett]

All right, Megan wants to know, have you ever listened to any music by Connor Oberst? Oberst. I actually don't know how to pronounce his last name. My favorite music by him is Bright Eyes. But he has solo stuff and more that I really love. I have listened to him. I do like it. Do you have thoughts? You ever listen to that music?

[Alice]

I haven't, but I'm definitely going to. I just looked him up.

[Brett]

It's great. It's really good stuff. You should check it out.

[Alice]

I definitely am going. I'm probably going to go for a walk after this because I, you know, we always talk about how after recording I can't go to sleep for a while.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Alice]

So I need to go like walk it off. I'm going to go listen to some Connor Oberst.

[Brett]

I'll admit I haven't thought about him in a long time. So thank you for bringing that up. I always like music. Questions are fun. So. Okay, let's see. Oh, this is perfect. Because you know all about this. I'm just gonna sit back and listen to you describe this. This really should be a legal briefs question, but whatever. And sum. Allison. So Alison wants to know about foia. Does one have to give a specific reason for filing a FOIA request when they file? What are limitations of FOIA in the accessible documents? Does the filer get added to some sort of interested party database once the paperwork is submitted? What are some common examples of red tape situations a filer may run into or other obvious obstacles?

[Alice]

Such good questions. No, you don't have to give like a specific reason. There's not gradations of it when you file a FOIA request. So FOIA stands for Freedom of Information act, which is the federal act. But I think every state has essentially a state corollary to foia. So depending on what you want, like if you want something from a federal agency like the FBI, treasury, whatnot, you can file a FOIA request for it. And if you want something that the state holds, you can file a state FOIA request for that information within it. You just have to state with particularity what you want. You don't have to give a reason, you don't have to be like, this is my father, he was wrongly accused of this crime. That's why I want the documents. You just have to state it with particularity. The red tape, there are so many, is that even if you get the chance to ask for it, so you can ask for anything, there are exceptions to foia by exceptions, meaning they do not have to be released by the governing body that holds them. And they're going to be slightly different for each state, but there's ones that you're probably going to think of like it's an open investigation, that there's some sort of, like national security to it, some sort of pii, personal identifying information that would violate other statutes, like HIPAA information, if they were released. Deliberative process. If it's showing how the government thinks through, you know, what their decision making is, they don't have to show you all of that work. So if it slots into one of these exceptions, they don't have to produce it. They do have to explain to you why they're withholding documents. And you can challenge it through a very lengthy administrative process. And you have to go through the administrative process before you go to court, because if you go to court, you'll get kicked out of court saying that you haven't exhausted your administrative remedies first. And then of course, the really big red tape is the sheer volume, because this statute exists and you don't have to have like a particularly good reason in order to file for these FOIA requests. You can imagine that most bodies that are receiving FOIA requests, and I'm talking like millions of requests, and in order to go through them, it is a human being going through them. Because if you have to slot them into an exception, I guess maybe with the development of AI, AI can do some of it, but you really need a human behind it. And governments, state and federal, are famously known for just being slow, right? Like you're going to go home at 5 o'. Clock. By the way, having worked for the federal government, I can tell you there are lots of people who work in the government who obviously work way more than that. But there's going to be a massive line of FOIA requests. Typically they're going to be first in, first out, so you wait in line. But there's also the expedited cases. So anyone who expedites their case and there's a finding that their FOIA request can be expedited will jump the line. So you could do nothing and Wait forever for your FOIA request, and it could actually be moving backwards in the queue rather than moving forwards. And it is not uncommon to have to wait years for someone to get to your FOIA request. Now, you may be thinking, aren't there laws in place to help prevent, you know, slow walking this. Yes. And it's a completely unrealistic law, at least on the federal side. The government has to respond within, I think it's like 30 days. This was before the advent of electronic discovery and emails, when there was just less paper. Now there's so much that basically as soon as your FOIA request comes in, the government asks for the statutorily allowed extension, and then you just keep getting letters that extend it. So we have filed numerous FOIA requests in all sorts of jurisdictions for records. Sometimes we get records years later, and sometimes we never hear back. If you really want an action on your FOIA request, you basically have to file a lawsuit, which takes money and time. So that may have sounded depressing, but that's a very realistic look at foia.

[Brett]

So I'll give you two examples of FOIA requests we've done recently. The first one, you guys may recall the Avengers, the five Avenger bombers that disappeared supposedly in the Bermuda Triangle. And there was a story about someone finding an Avenger in the swamp that had two people dead inside of it. And there was this question about, could this have been one of the Avengers? So I sent a foyer request to the Department of the Navy about this. I'm going to go through this with you how this went. So I sent one to the Department of the Navy, laid all this out, asking for exactly what I was looking for. The Navy says, we looked for these records. We couldn't find them, but we think it's possible the National Archives and Records Administration may be in possession of them. And then they gave me where to send the FOIA request to them. So I sent the FOIA request to the NARA people. So I sent it to them. So they sent me an email that said, thank you for submitting your Freedom of Information act request. The National Archives and Records Administration, they have, according to this email, operational records. They don't have archival records. They think those records would be in possession of the Office of Research Services. So they forwarded the request to them. So then I got an email from a guy who works the National Archives Reference section. And this guy was super helpful. He said he, he looked through their records. He says basically that if anyone had it, it would be the National Archives in Atlanta. So he's forwarding the request to them. They forward the request to the National Archives in Atlanta. Then the Atlanta archives email me, and they say, hey, we got this email from the people in Maryland about this. We're going to respond within 10 business days, which is pretty good. And they do. In 10 business days, they send me an email, and they basically say that they've looked through their records and they write this very detailed thing about, you know, where the records would be, and they can't find any records. I then sent them the newspaper article about it. I was like, hey, well, here's the newspaper article. This helps. And the guy says, yeah, saw that article. Saw several other articles while I was doing the search. But despite that, can't find any records. He notes that it's possible the records would be classified. And because they're classified, maybe I wouldn't actually get them. But if they were classified, they would be in the hands of the National Archives at College Park. Who were the people I had emailed before who actually sent it to this guy? So he says to me, he's like, your only thing left to do is you can go through all the record group 181 naval districts and Shore establishments documents in Atlanta, page by page, and see whether you can find anything about this. They're obviously not going to do that. So if anybody wants to go to the National Archives in Atlanta and read the Entire Record Group 181 documents to see whether or not there's anything about the finding this avenger, feel free to do it. But they were helpful, but they didn't find anything. So it wasn't helpful in that they couldn't give me anything. So that was a little disappointing.

[Alice]

And by the way, the only thing unusual about that particular process was how responsive they actually were to us. Usually you don't even get that much involvement.

[Brett]

Yeah, exactly. They're super responsive. And I think it helps that it's called Prosecutors Podcast. Always center in that. Maybe they're afraid they'll get sued or something, or prosecuted.

[Alice]

I don't know.

[Brett]

But. So that was the first one. You guys may recall. We did a short series on the West Memphis Three case. I don't know if y' all remember that.

[Alice]

If you blinked, you may have missed it.

[Brett]

It was so fast, but we did it. So if you wanted to hear.

[Alice]

Blinked for five straight months.

[Brett]

If you want to hear a couple episodes On West Memphis 3, we did that last year. Well, there had been this whole question about 2011 DNA results, and we talked about how nobody had them. Nobody could find them. We had some FOIA requests out to the DA's office, and last year they responded with some documents that were pretty helpful, but they weren't the entirety of the file. Well, last week, two weeks ago, I forget exactly when it was. We got an email and they're like, hey, we've got the whole thing. So they sent us a thousand pages of DNA results in the West Memphis Three case. We put them up on prosecutors podcast.com if you want to read them. We also posted links on Twitter and on the gallery. So if you're into that case and you always wondered what the 2011 DNA results show, check that out. They're now free for you to look at. I will tell you, they don't show much. That's the. All the conspiracy theories about what they might have said and how there was some blockbuster piece of information. That's why nobody had them. Nope. Turned out not to be true. They're just not that helpful at all. But there's a thousand pages of them, so have fun reading them. So there you go. That's two examples of FOIA that we've done recently. One very successful, one not successful at all. All right, guys, well, this has been fun. Thanks for bearing with us on this case. We'll do one more episode. The next one promises to be the most interesting of the series because they're really going to dive into this, whether there's a conspiracy. The conspiracy theory in this case, that there was a cover up. And you know what? Sometimes conspiracies happen. That's all I'll say about that until next week. Alice, have anything to add before we sign off?

[Alice]

Sometimes conspiracies in the legal, technical sense happen.

[Brett]

True, Exactly.

[Alice]

Crimes happen in which there is a meeting of the minds and actions in furtherance of the conspiracy. And that's what we're gonna talk about next time.

[Brett]

All right, guys, well, we will be back next week with more on this case. But until then, I'm Brett.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Brett]

And we are the prosecutors.

[Alice]

Even with a snazzy, snazzy whatever intro, we're still not ready.

[Brett]

No, no.

[Alice]

I missed you.

[Brett]

I missed you, too.

[Alice]

Summer's, like, weird with all the, like. We've been having a great summer. You guys obviously have, too. We just aren't traveling anywhere. But it's been like, I don't know, this is the first summer. Maybe because my oldest is like 8. I'm enjoying summer as opposed to just like being exhausted. Does that make sense?

[Brett]

That makes sense.

[Alice]

Let me. Let me just be clear, it's still exhausting.

[Brett]

Yeah, I was gonna say I'm exhausted.

[Alice]

I just. Up until now, I mean, you're still in the period where I felt like it was just like a non stop sprinting marathon. Sam. At 8, I'm like. It's, like, beginning to be a little bit fun in the summer. Like, we go swimming and, like, go explore the creek. It's really fun. Anyways.

[Brett]

All right, well, glad everything's going so well for you, Alice.

[Alice]

Thank you. Oh, thanks, Sophie, for complimenting my ear. The reason you guys see them today is I usually take them off, but it kind of freaks me out to not be able to hear the outside world. So I put one behind. So that's why you see my earring.

[Brett]

Hello and welcome to Pluto Foe. If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto tv, where all your blockbuster favorites are landing all summer long. Catch. Anchorman. The Legend of Ron Burgundy. Fantastic. The Matrix Trilogy.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Welcome to the real world, mean girls.

[Alice]

Shut up.

[Brett]

Titanic. I'm the king of the world. And so much more. For showtimes, press Nothing. They're free 24. 7.

[Alice]

That is so fast.

[Brett]

On Pluto TV. Stream now.

[Alice]

Pay never.