Loading summary
Transcript99 lines
- [00:01]
A
When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there's no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Hi, I'm Jessie Perry. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
- [01:16]
B
I'm brett. And I'm alice and we are the prosecut. Today on the Prosecutors. We finish our look at the Ghost Train fire at Luna Park. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my unglobig co host Alice.
- [02:22]
A
I'm very impressed. There was like an MM lot in there.
- [02:26]
B
There was, there was. It was over the a. So matter of fact, that means skeptical in German.
- [02:33]
A
That actually is incredibly on point because boy am I skeptical about the inquest that we were talking about last time. As well as we should be.
- [02:44]
B
Way to roll right into the case today. No chit chat today.
- [02:47]
A
I told you I was going to be disciplined because you know what, like we said last time, we promised you that this wasn't just some conspiracy that we were going to speculate about. We were going to point to to evidence and reports in the record that lead one to reach a strong suspicion that we should be skeptical about the stated reason of this fire.
- [03:07]
B
So if you guys, I'm sure remember we've done two cases on this. This is the Ghost Train fire. Horrific fire at Luna park in Sydney. We've talked about the day, we've talked about the victims and now we're going to start talking about things that happened in years later that maybe explain exactly what happened that tragic night.
- [03:29]
A
The thing is, we left off at the inquest in 1979. Last time. Nothing happens. Nothing happens. Fast forward five years in 1984. I do have questions about this later, but let's just talk about what's in these illegal police wiretaps are released. They're part of a completely unrelated case. So this doesn't have to do with the Ghost Train Fire specifically, but these wiretaps are released and they reveal that solicitor Morgan Ryan, Abe Safran's lawyer, and High Court Justice Lionel Murphy had colluded together to pervert the course of justice relating to a number of criminal occurrences. So who are these people? Who is Abe Safran specifically? Well, Safran was known as the King of the Cross, a red light district in Sydney. He was, to put it simply, a gangster. So the following year, Murphy was charged and convicted with attempting to pervert the course of justice. But the verdict was overturned on appeal and he was ultimately acquitted at a retrial in 1986. So, of course, this is much deeper than just one case. This is kind of an entire system, an entire really society that was being run by deep pockets and mobsters, led by Abe Saffron, that went all the way to the top, to the top of the High Court justice system. Now, several inquiries were held following the release of these tapes because they discussed a lot of things in these tapes. And the most notable contained several allegations against High Court Justice Murphy. The most interesting one in this instance being in an Allegation number 27. I think there were like hundreds of allegations. This was just number 27. They found evidence suggesting that Neville Wren, who was the NSW Premier and Lionel Murphy's best friend, colluded with Murphy to obtain a lease for Abe Saffron to Luna Park. Remember how we talked about real estate last time? Well, unfortunately, if we thought this was just to be tip of the iceberg of some case blown wide open, that allegation would essentially die on the vine there because Lionel Murphy died during the inquiry. So this issue, instead of continuing on, was just simply dropped.
- [05:46]
B
And you may wonder, why would they just drop it? Well, what you're seeing here is some real and deep corruption. So just to back up a minute, if you're in Australia, you understand automatically what all this means. But for those of you in the United States or in other countries, High Court Justice Lionel Murphy, this is the equivalent of indicting Sonia Sotomayor or her, or the. Or the Chief justice of the Supreme Court. This is a massive blow to the integrity of the justice system in Australia. And this High Court justice was corrupt in many ways. And he also was the best friend of the Premier of New South Wales, which is where Sydney is. It's where Luna Park Is. And it turns out that this guy who was essentially, they used to call him the Prime Minister, but that was confusing because they have the Prime Minister of low Countries, especially the Governor of. I guess, I mean, I don't offend all the other states, but I would say probably Australia's most important state. I mean, it's kind of like being the governor of New York, right? I mean, that's, that's how I would
- [06:51]
A
compare all the businesses. It's where the Opera House is.
- [06:54]
B
That's where Sydney is.
- [06:55]
A
I mean, that's where Sydney is.
- [06:56]
B
It's a big deal.
- [06:57]
A
That's where Finding Nemo is.
- [06:58]
B
So, okay, so imagine that the governor of New York is colluding with her best friend Sonia Sotomayor, who I think is also from New York. I'm just gonna continue this, not to cast aspersions on any of those people, but just imagine if the governor of New York was conspiring with Sonia Sotomayor to get Coney island for the Gambino crime family. I mean, that's, that's, that literally is
- [07:25]
A
the height of all of this, right? Oftentimes when we're talking about conspiracies, we're talking about low level conspiracy in the sense that it's very bad. There's corruption, but it's all like people you've never heard of any. And it's the local level, we're talking about the height of those who have power in really, Australia.
- [07:43]
B
And so you can imagine if you're trying to investigate this, the headwinds you would face. You don't get to be a High Court justice or the governor of a state without knowing a lot of people and having a lot of powerful friends and corruption at that level. It's one thing if you have a corrupt cop or a corrupt, even like a police chief or a local judge, that's one thing. But when you have corruption at this high level, it's very difficult to dig out. But, you know, this is one case. It's the product of illegal wiretapping, which apparently happened in Australia all the time. I don't really know why, but lots of cases in Australia end up having some illegal wiretaps in them. But either way, this happens. So you might be thinking, okay, fine, still, what are we trying to say here? We trying to say that Abe Saffron, this gangster, this guy who involved in prostitution and gambling and everything else in King's Cross in Sydney, the king of sin, Mr. Sin, they used to call him, that he's somehow involved in Luna park he's trying to obtain the lease. But he didn't get the lease. Right. The lease went to this other independent company, this Harborside Amusement. It's not owned by Abe Saffron. It's owned by Hal and Carl Goldstein. Well, okay, let's Fast forward to April 1986. In April 1986, the New South Wales Corporate Affairs Commission announced that they would be conducting a special investigation to determine whether Abe Saffron had any links to the operators of Luna park and if he had any financial advantage in the Harborside Amusement deal. Now why would that be the case? Well, it turns out, and I feel like this wasn't that hard to discover, just going back to when this lease was awarded, the report found that Saffron had family social and business relationships with none other than Carl Goldstein, the owner of Harborside. For starters, he was Abe Saffron's cousin, so there's that. Saffron's nephew, who was on a trust that managed most of Saffron's money, was the financial controller of Luna Park. Additionally, Saffron, wouldn't you know it, after Harborside takes over Luna park, they install a hundred of Saffron's own new Arcadia game machines into Luna Park. And the money from those machines went directly into Saffron's personal trust. What do you think about that, Alice? Well, how about them apples about the Mapple?
- [10:22]
A
Sounds a lot like, huh, there's financial gain to be had here and not even a lot of layers in between.
- [10:30]
B
And this is one of those things. It's kind of like the coroner's report. Like, yes, you go. New South Wales Corporate Affairs Commission. You're really uncovering all the dirt. Well, unfortunately, despite all of this, the commission ultimately concludes that there was no evidence suggesting that Abe Saffron had any actual or beneficial ownership of Harborside Amusement. Okay, fine. He doesn't actually own the company. He's not an idiot. In fact, Abe Saffron, despite having his hands in all sorts of criminal activity, the police could never touch him. He was never convicted of anything past. Some things when he was in his younger years, but never at this point. He's much smarter than that. He's obviously running this operation through a third party, an independent entity. So he has no direct ownership, but he's certainly benefiting from the fact that this company surprisingly was able to gain the lease at Luna park after this fire just so happened to occur. So you got this commission doing their thing. They're not the only ones looking at Saffron. So the New South Wales Police licensing squad is running its own investigation into Saffron and his connections to Harborside Amusement. Now this report has never been released to the public, but ABC was able, during that documentary that we've talked about a lot, uncovered the ghost train fire. They were able to obtain a copy and it turns out the investigation concluded that there was a significant effort, shocker of shockers, to hide Saffron's involvement in a Harborside amusement. And given that that was the case, the Luna park fire needed to be re examined from a different perspective. One that did not just assume this was some sort of horrific accident. So this report done by these police who seemed like they did a really good job, really dug into this, gave some, some honest opinions, of course it was taken seriously. A new investigation was open. Abe Saffron was looked into. They really dug into this. No, none of that happened. The report was sent up to the senior leadership in the police department and they did nothing with it. Why would that be? Well, we know now, and most people knew then that Abe Saffron had what we'll call business relationships with several of the high ranking members of the police. In other words, he was bribing them.
- [13:07]
A
So you know, oftentimes in these types of true crime cases you'll have people claim that they have shocking, never before seen evidence and they're gonna reveal it on a new episode of their podcast or YouTube channel and when they do, it's a nothing burger. That's not the case here. This report, it's not just smoke and mirrors. It's actually a finding by the report through investigation and interviews with witnesses that say what Brett just told you. Not only that those witnesses can be found today to confirm what they told the New South Wales Police. And why I point this out is I think this wasn't like some massive secret. People knew that there was a cover up happening. They may not have been able to point directly to it, but there were enough people involved because there are a lot of witnesses and all you, you don't need to like buy off the whole police force. We've said this before, right? We've said this in like the Karen Reed case. Like their conspiracy was much too complex because really you don't need to buy off an entire police, you just need to buy off the decision maker. And that's what Abe Saffron is doing here. So you have all the kind of line policemen underneath the top ones who are being bought off, who are doing their jobs and they're like, guys, this is not good. We're Interviewing these witnesses. This is looking like a cover up. Doesn't matter, because if that report never sees the light of day, then nothing happens. So you don't have to bribe the entire chain of command, just the top. And this is all going to say the fact that the ABC docu series and all these other reports and witness statements that weren't really made public at the time are being shown the light of day, I think is precisely because people knew that something was awry and they were willing to risk it to basically turn these documents over.
- [14:50]
B
And this is an aside, but this is such a betrayal when judges and police officers do this. And we talked about in the Miss Becky thing in the Murdoch case and how that was such a betrayal because of her position. Same thing here, but so much worse. You can imagine, I don't know how many cops are being bribed. I don't know how many judges are being paid off. But what I do know is there were some good cops and there were some good judges. If you watch the documentary, you see some of those and they're working hard to actually reach truth, to do their jobs, to do it honorably. And not only are they being undermined by the people above them, but you can imagine the public didn't look at those guys and trust them, even the good cops, because they didn't know who the good cops were or who the bad cops were. And that stigma sticks around forever. We talked to, and we'll release this soon, probably already by the time you hear this episode. We talked to Randy Barnett on Legal Briefs. Randy Barnett is a law professor currently at Georgetown, a very famous one. But before he did that, he was a prosecutor in Chicago, back in the bad old days of Chicago. You know, most people, when they think of Chicago, they think of corruption. Chicago is synonymous with corruption. And he wrote a book about his time there called Felony Review. It's amazing. Paige Turner, I've sat down, expected I'd read a couple chapters, read the whole book. Really good book about his time. And he talks about this, how there are cops, he's a prosecutor, and he doesn't know which cops he can trust, which he can't. One cop, literally on the stand changes his story to benefit the defense, and he only realizes then this guy's corrupt. And not only was the cop on the stand corrupt, but the defense attorney was corrupt and the judge was corrupt. Everybody in the room except him was corrupt. And. And that corruption, even if it gets rooted out, and he talks about that in his book, that stigma lives on forever. And I'm sure to this day there are people who don't trust the police and the authorities in New South Wales and Australia because of what was going on at this time. And whatever you think happened with the Ghost Train fire, we're going to talk about that. This is undeniable. There was just corruption up and down this police force, this judiciary, and it colors every single thing that we talk about. Guys, I don't know about you, but I'm really busy and half the time I forget to eat and the other half of the time when I decide it's time to eat, I don't have anything to eat and I certainly don't have time to make it. And I didn't buy anything to put together some fancy meal. Hunger strikes and I'm exhausted. Thank goodness for Factor. With Factor, I'm hitting my nutrition goals this season. Without the planning, without the grocery runs or the cooking. Factor has meals built around your goals, whether that's weight loss, overall nutrition, more protein, or GLP1 support for strength and workout recovery. Check out Factor's Muscle Pro collection. Recently I had their steak and peaches. It was so good. I did not believe that I could get a good steak from a mail order meal company like Factor. And yet there it was. It was delicious and it hit the spot. Every meal is crafted with functional ingredients, lean proteins, colorful veggies, whole foods and healthy fats. Factor bans 175 ingredients. No artificial colors or sweeteners, no high fructose corn syrup, no refined seed oils. Just nutrient dense food.
- [18:28]
A
Guys, I love Factor. I've been relying it. I've been relying on Factor so much this summer because all my kids are home and I still have to work and do this podcast. But I have these delicious meals at the ready in my refrigerator. I love it and you will too. Head to factor meals.com prosecutors 50 off and use code prosecutors 50 off to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only while supplies last until September 27, 2026. See website for more details. You guys know my love for Honey Love. And that's because, guys, I need support for my body, but I want to be comfortable. That's why I've completely switched all my bras to Honey Love bras. And I need shapewear whether I'm going to court or I just want to feel confident in my body. And Honey Love is the one that I reach for because it's comfortable, I forget I'm wearing it. And yes, that's shocking. Ladies, I know shapewear you actually forget you're wearing because it's that comfortable. Yes, that's Honey Love. I can wear all day and feel comfortable. And their bras are so supportive and comfortable. You know that you need lift and structure. So you're used to kind of these, you know, stiff wires, but not with Honey Love. They give you just the right amount of support without having to use these wires. Honeylove is an independent female founded brand. All Honey Love products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them, including their founder Betsy, who's highly involved in the development of each product. And look, I know that finding the right bra can be such a headache, especially as you get older. And it can be frustrating. What used to work just doesn't anymore. You want lift, shape and support, but without those stiff wires, that's exactly where honeylove stands out. Their bras are designed to provide lift and structure using innovative bonding technology instead of uncomfortable underwire. So you get that secure lifted feel without the poking, pinching or constantly adjusting. Right, Brett?
- [20:25]
B
Right, Alice. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off honey love@honeylove.com prosecutors that's honeylove.com prosecutors after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard and comfort and support with Honey Love. Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word.
- [20:58]
A
My champion, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely suv, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight we feast. An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. So that same year, remember we're in 1986. A great year. The year I was born. The National Crime Authority in Sydney began investigating several biker groups that they believed could have had some involvement in the Luna park fire. Remember, at the time of the fire, there were, I think seven witnesses who had mentioned seeing bikies. And it's pretty much confirmed or at least uncontested that there were bikies who were on the ride just 10 minutes before the fire was noticed. They re interviewed some of the original witnesses, but ultimately found no evidence that the bikers lit the fire. They did, however, find that a group of bikers, like I said, did ride the ghost train minutes before the fire was noticed. The investigation also found that the police investigation was grossly inadequate and Proper procedures were abandoned during the very early stages of the investigation. Despite this, they still did not believe that corruption was the cause of the police failures. Now, they also said that there was no evidence that Saffron had attempted to obtain the lease at Luna Park. Now, this is inconsistent with the previous investigation into the High Court Justice Lionel Murphy, where it did show that he had helped get this lease that benefited Saffron.
- [22:34]
B
So I have no evidence that this happened, but I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened. I have no evidence that happened, but this is what happened. So just bear with me on this, because if you've ever worked in any kind of group where you were responsible for investigating something and writing report and passing it up the chain of command to be finalized and released, you have experienced this, where you go in, you gather all the information, you gather all the evidence, you write the report, you reach a conclusion, you send it to your boss, and your boss is like, we can't go that far. We can't say that. You know, I get what you're saying, but you need to tone this down. And inevitably what happens is you end up with a report that seems contradictory. Because the thing you don't want to tone down is the evidence. You want to at least include the evidence. You want to keep the evidence in there if you can, so that anybody who actually reads the report can get to truth. You know that most people are only going to read the conclusions. That's what the headlines in the newspaper are going to be. But you want to at least include the truth in the report. I think that's exactly what happened here. I think this authority and probably the other report we talked about, they came to some conclusions that were probably different from the conclusions that ended up in the report. It went up to the finalizing authority. They said, we can do this. And so you have these reports that lay out all this evidence that seemed to lead to a conclusion, and then they reach the opposite conclusion. I think that's exactly what happened here. And I think you see that and even the conclusions themselves. There's no evidence he attempted to obtain the lease. Of course there's not. Once again, he's not an idiot. He wasn't trying to obtain the lease.
- [24:06]
A
He didn't sign on the dotted line. He had someone else sign on the dotted line.
- [24:09]
B
A shell company. I mean, it's. It's like everybody else. Shell companies exist for this reason. Even in legitimate business, half the time, the company doing the work's not the real company, you know, so, anyways, I think that's what happened here. I don't really have any doubt that that's what happened here because the conclusions don't match the evidence.
- [24:28]
A
I think that's very astute. And we've said this actually in dissecting some Supreme Court opinions too where like the reasoning don't exactly match the conclusion because they have to get to five. Right. They have to get the majority. But they still put in all of their reasoning. That's kind of what this reads like and it goes really far. Remember having basically police call out police corruption. You should do it if there is. But it is a very high bar. You don't just run around calling out corruption when you may not have the evidence of it. Right. So in 1987, the next year a government inquiry by the National Crime Authority reopened an investigation into the fire. Can I just note that like within a less than a decade there's all these reinvestigations which talk about a lot of smoke and absolutely no pun intended here. We're not talking about years years later, not just one, two, but three investigations into this. When remember within what, 12 hours, they had already stated that it was an accident. The police. That was the official position of the police at the time. So in this reinvestigation no new evidence was presented, but it was found that the police investigation into the incident had been inadequ and the coronial inquiry was ineffective. Yeah, I mean that's all I have to say. I mean that's as far as they go.
- [25:46]
B
But I think this is an attempt and this is, you know, the second time the National Crime Authority has looked at this. I think this is an attempt to push people to do more. We looked into the fire again and it seems like the last investigation was pretty poor. Maybe we should, you know, do something about that. You know, this political pressure. We think about the Ellen Greenberg case. This reminds me the Ellen Greenberg case where you keep having these investigations but they don't really do anything. They don't really get anywhere. They don't reach any different conclusions. They feel inadequate, but they make you think we need more. And I feel like that's what's happening here. But years pass, nothing happens. Get to 1995. It's now been 16 years since the fire, but only then a memorial at the park was created for the victims and it featured an antique bench with the names of the victims next to a tree. In 2003, the site where the ghost train once at was leveled once again and replaced with the big top. A multi purpose entertainment Venue the same time the 1995 memorial was removed. According to the director at the time, Warwick Doughty, the memorial and events of that evening had little modern relevance. I can see why they wanted to forget community when you let them forget them.
- [27:07]
A
So in 2004, after backlash from the community and North Sydney Mayor Genia McCaffrey, a memorial for the victims was placed on one of the external walls of the big top. Can I just say this is a good use of like public pressure and your voice really does matter. That's why this memorial was essentially put back up. So fast forward now, this flurry of reinvestigations and people kind of calling out this was not as it should be. But no one's saying the actual words that we're waiting for, that this is a crime. And then nothing happens. It's completely quiet for about a decade. Now it's 2013. Martin Sharp dies. Now, Martin had helped redesign Luna park before the fire and, and after the fire. He had been the one I think had painted, you know, the now infamous clown looking entrance. And after the fire, he became entirely devoted to finding out what happened that night because he had this feeling based on what he was hearing, that nothing was adding up. So he investigated the fire for decades, really by himself until his death. And he devoted an entire room in his house to keeping files on the incident. He became close friends with victims families and was crucial in uncovering the alleged arson and subsequent coverup. He documented everything. He had thousands of hours of tapes of talking to witnesses and victims family members. He had note taking, he had gotten all of the reports that he was able to get his hands on. It looked like a case room if you were prosecuting this case. And it was just one man who became obsessed with finding out the truth. Now Sharp's research was featured heavily in the ABC docu series Exposed the Ghost Train Fire. And really, I think if Sharp hadn't done this research, he didn't get to see what became of it before he died. I don't know that there would have been enough information to be able to ultimately expose what happened. Because of him. He was able to keep the names of all the witnesses that they needed to talk to. They could have been, you know, lost to the wind and kind of forgotten over time had it not been for his preservation of their names and also their testimony close in time to the fire.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, he recorded hours of interviews with people who'd been there, some who aren't alive anymore. Testament to ABC for going through all that stuff because When I was watching the documentary, I was like, oh, my goodness, who's going to listen to all those tapes? But apparently they did. Apparently.
- [29:33]
A
Then, yeah.
- [29:34]
B
And they found all this information. And Alice has said that question, if you were charged with a crime, what lawyer would you want? And Alice has said, I want a great documentarian. I want someone in the press on my side because it can be really effective. And oftentimes we criticize that. Oftentimes we're talking about documentaries that present questionable information or leave out important things in an effort to usually exonerate someone who. Who's guilty. You know, just to put it bluntly, that's oftentimes what we're seeing. But the fact remains that sunlight is the best disinfectant and getting information out to the public can create real change. And that absolutely happened here. The ABC docu series had a massive impact. In April 2021, New South Wales premier. One that wasn't corrupt and should be in prison, or, I don't know, maybe she should be. You can write in and tell me. Gladys, Gladys Berry Jiklian, quite a name, announced that they were considering a new inquest into the Ghost Train fire. And in fact, the New South Wales Police would reopen their investigation. They established a task force called Strike Force Sedgman to focus on this investigation, and they put a lot of effort into it. The investigation starts in 2021, but they don't complete their investigation until September of 2024 when they complete a report. A redacted version of that report has been given to the families of the victims and their legal counsel, but it has not been released to the public. I question this, why it has not been released to the public. I think this is a circumstance where everyone in Australia deserves to know this. Obviously, the families of the seven are the chief victims in this case, but the whole country was victimized by this. The whole country was victimized by the corruption that surrounded this affair, by the people at high levels who were being paid off. And I think the whole country deserves to know exactly what's in that report. But it hasn't been released to the public as of yet. But that was only September 2024. It's June 2026 as we record this. So maybe in the near future we'll find more information. Though what we do know and what the ABC documentary released allows us to talk about the theories in this case in more depth and to examine what probably happened that night.
- [32:10]
A
So that's the timeline, and now we dive into theories. The theory, number one, is what was declared really within hours of the fire being extinguished, and that's that it was an accidental fire. So the theory that law enforcement and the New South Wales government wanted the public to believe was that the Luna park fire was a tragic accident. First, police theorized, with honestly no investigation, that this was the result of faulty wiring, Blaming the fuse box as the source of the fire. This came out really within hours, if not days, of the fire. Experienced fire investigators say that it would be impossible to come to that conclusion that quickly. Now, they fabricated witness statements saying that there were sparks seen from the roof of the ghost train ride just before the ride began. Police claimed four such witnesses existed, but in fact, they were completely made up. Now, as discussed previously, the accidental fire theory is nonsensical for many reasons. I'll name three of them here. First, the flames were seen at the imitation fireplace, not the fuse box. And while the police claimed there were four witnesses who saw this rooftop dancing of the flames, there were none of them. But there were like, seven, at least seven witnesses who said right after the fire that they saw what looked to be real flames in this imitation fireplace. Second, the fuse box that was supposed to be the source of this electrical wiring fault was in remarkably good shape, especially considering the rest of the ride was completely burned down. There was nothing left. But somehow the fuse box that was supposed to be the culprit stood looking as if it were actually still functional. And in fact, it may have actually been functional because if this was an electrical issue, these electrical tracks wouldn't have kept running, and the internal lights wouldn't have been on. But even at the height of the flames, when there was this massive inferno, both kept running. Witnesses described the train tracks moving the train's carts through the ride, coming back without people in them, but caught on fire, they were still moving through the actual flames. Pictures of the flames show. Remember we said this was amazing. There were hundreds of thousands of lights at this park. You can see these, like, Hollywood like, bulbs lighting up the ghost train outside as it's engulfed in flames. There was no electrical issue.
- [34:40]
B
I mean, it's one of those things. It is so horrific to imagine because, remember, they had that cage where you could see the cars for a brief period of time as they came outside, and the train is still running, the cars are engulfed in flames. They come out of that door completely on fire and then go in the next door completely on fire. Just madness. If you saw this in a horror movie, you would say, that's impossible. If there was a fire like that, there was no way electricity would still be going. But it did and kept running. And just the notion this is electrical fire, there's a reason that that explanation and I'm sure when the police came up with it, they thought electrical fire. Nobody will question that. Electro fires all the time. It was so obviously false that the inquest is like, no, that didn't happen. No one who has any experience in fire investigations thinks this was an electrical fire. But the inquest by the coroner did present a new theory attributing the most likely cause of the fire to probably the second biggest cause of fires after electrical issues at the time, a discarded cigarette. So basically somebody threw a cigarette out. Maybe they threw it in that fake fireplace to be cute. Air blows on that cigarette, flames up again, catches one of the little pieces of paper that's supposed to simulate the flames on fire and away we go. But number one, there's no real investigation of this case. We have no idea where this started because no one really looked into it. A modern fire investigation might be able to locate the beginning of this fire though. It was so completely devastating. I don't know if that's true, but at least they could have tried. We don't really know where it started. It's difficult to see how this answer could be reached. There's no evidence of it. The people who were riding at the time did not say they saw anyone smoking. It was a non smoking ride. It seemed far fetched to the people who had ridden the ride just because it was dark, it was bumpy, it was so dark you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. And so they didn't think that someone would have smoked the ride. I don't think you can discount it completely, as we said earlier, but there's no evidence of it. It's possible certainly, but I think when we think about the possibility this was caused by a cigarette, we have to put the lack of evidence but sort of maybe the statistical probability of a cigarette based fire up against the evidence we have of the alternative theory. And I think there's really only one which is this was an arson that was covered up by the police. So this theory is laid out in the ABC docu series that we have discussed throughout these three episodes. And it is the theory believed by most of the public today. That theory is that the Luna park ghost train fire was an act of arson, that it was carried out by someone in an effort to gain the lease of the valuable Luna park land. And the docu series attributes the fire to one Powerful man who we've discussed with several police officers, judges and politicians in his pocket. The Don Corleone of Sydney, Abe Saffron.
- [37:46]
A
So Abe Saffron was a well known crime boss in Sydney. He owned several bars, strip clubs and nightclubs in the King Cross area and was known to deal in drugs, prostitution, illegal licensing, among other illicit activities. Abe, better known as Mr. Sin or the Sin of Sidney, was mostly able to evade any sort of repercussion for his crimes, aside from a brief stint that he did in jail for tax evasion. How very Al Capone of him. This was probably because of his connections with several high ranking police officers, politicians and even government officials. Most notably Neville Wren, the New South Wales Premier at the time, Bill Allen, the Deputy Commissioner, Detective Doug Knight, and a High Court judge named Lionel Murphy. In other words, really everyone in power in New South Wales.
- [38:36]
B
I just wanted to note, as you pointed out, he's got top of the judiciary, top of the political class, top of the police department because the Deputy Commissioner runs the police department. The Commissioner is just a figurehead. He's got the guys. He has all three of the most powerful people in his pocket. Any of those people can shut down investigations into him, prosecutions of him, questioning of him at any time. It's really remarkable how effective he was. I would read a book on this guy, frankly there's, if there's a book, somebody recommend it to me because he is a character out of a movie.
- [39:12]
A
Absolutely. So this is a pretty big allegation to lodge here. So what is the evidence supporting this theory? So first years after the fire, Richard Carroll, who is one of the victims, a mother received a call late one evening. It was a girl that Richard had known from school who his mother recalled seeing at his funeral, noting that she was abnormally distraught at that funeral with several other girls. The girl went on to say that she and her friends were supposed to meet up with the boys at Luna park that night. Which by the way was confirmed by Jason, the one boy of this group of five boys who survived that some girls were supposed to show up as well. Now that girl went on to say that though she and her friends were supposed to meet up with the boys at Luna park, her father last minute wouldn't let her go. He told her something bad was going to go down at Luna park that evening. And her father wasn't just some overprotective father. He was Jack Brooklyn, who was a shady businessman with ties to the Genovese crime family. Rooklyn was a known associate and friend of Abe Safran would be in a position to know if Abe Safran were going to do something at the park that night. Now, this story was supported also, as I said, by Jason Holman. He was the fifth boy with the Waverly College boys. The evening of the fire, he said as they were planning to go out that evening, he was told that some girls might be meeting up with them at Luna park that night, though he didn't know who, since they never showed up.
- [40:43]
B
You know, this is one of those stories that if it were told in isolation or if it were just there was a rumor that the boys are supposed to meet up with some girls who were connected to crime, I would probably dismiss. In one of our other episodes, I'd be like, yeah, it sounds like the kind of rumor people always spreading, but number one, it comes from the mob. And number two, you know, you can tell so much about people's demeanor. And if you've seen the documentary, they ask her who was her father? And she doesn't want to say. She's like, I don't want to say his name. Man's been dead for decades. But even now, she's afraid to mention his name. And then finally she does it. She says, it was Jack Brooklyn. I mean, just so compelling. And that's just one aspect you would expect. Jack Ricklin's exactly the kind of person who would know that something like this is going to happen. Exactly the kind of person who would tell his daughter not to go to the park, complete aside. But I'm gonna tell it anyway, because I like telling stories. So back in the day, in the 30s, in the Soviet Union, Joseph Stalin was in charge of the Soviet Union. He had a daughter, beloved daughter, who eventually would defect the United States. Beloved daughter. And one day, he finds out that his daughter is at the home of one of his associates, Laventria Baria, who was the head of the nkvd, which is the predecessor of the kgb. And Beria was a monster of enormous proportions, A predator who raped and murdered hundreds of women, using his position as the head of the secret police in order to do so. And Joseph Stalin, one of the most evil men to ever live. He hears this, is immediately horrified, and personally races to Baria's house to get his daughter because he knows exactly what happens to young girls who are alone with Barria. Even though he's the premier of the Soviet Union, he is still afraid something's going to happen to his daughter. And he tells her, never, never be alone with that man again. Because he knew he knew how dangerous that was. Similar situation here. He's fine with something going down at Luna Park. He knows bad things are gonna happen to somebody, not gonna happen to his daughter. And he tells her she can't go. And to me, that is a very compelling piece of evidence. But that's not it. We're not just relying on that. There was a 17 year old boy at Luna park the night of the fire. His name was Les Dowd. He was homeless. He was living at a youth refuge at the time of the incident. This was one of the things the refuge did for some of the kids who were there. They would give them the opportunity to go down to the amusement park, something they wouldn't normally be able to do because obviously they don't have the money or the means to do something like that. When he got home that night, he told the youth manager an interesting story about what happened that night at Luna Park. So she listens to the story and she calls the police. And she and Les go down to the police station and together, Les recounts the same story to a police sergeant that he told her. He tells this sergeant that a group of bikies were standing outside the Ghost Train ride and that he overheard them discussing throwing kerosene on the ground and using a match to light the fire. One of the bikies says this. One of the leaders says, you should have done that, let's get out of here. And then they leave. He was able to provide the most detailed physical description I have ever heard from a witness of several members of this group, particularly the leader, down to the tattoos they were wearing, the top of earrings they had, the boots they were wearing, how their jeans were pushed down in the boots. I mean, it's just incredible. An incredibly detailed description.
- [44:47]
A
Yeah, the level of detail is amazing, but it starts to make sense when the. I think she's an angel of a woman who like ran this kind of group home for these teens who didn't have a home. She was, by the way, very young herself. She was just in her 20s. And this comes into play because when you have like police pressure, we're not talking about seasoned, you know, veterans of being able to stand up to questioning. She herself is just in her, what, early mid-20s, running this house. And she describes Les as a very quiet, not an embellisher. He's not like an attention seeker. And he kept to himself, which makes sense that he would be so observant. He was used to observing things around him. He had not the easiest life if you're Without a home at this age to survive, there's a lot of observing just to make sure you know what's going on around you. So it makes sense that he would be the type of person to be able to recall all these things. And he's not known to be a liar. That's relevant here. There are tall tale tellers and he is not known to be one of them.
- [45:47]
B
And he's not alone. His story was corroborated by a younger girl named Tina Shakeshift, who was also staying at the refuge at the time. And he had immediately told her what he heard as well. You know, in some ways, this almost reminds me in the Adnan Syed case, and there's so much focus on whether Jay Wilds is J. Wilds. Is he telling the truth? Is he lying? Can we trust him? Can we believe what he says? And for me, far more interesting than what J. Wild says is the fact that he told Jen Pusateri everything he's gonna later tell the police the very night it supposedly happened. Jen Pusateri is the one that's more convincing to me. I don't know anything about Les. Doubt. He's a 17 year old kid in a refuge. He's had a rough life. There are reasons to doubt that he might be truthful. But the fact of the matter is he's telling this story to multiple people immediately that night. And as we're gonna see, he's not the only one. So the detective who completed this initial interview was very interested in what Les had to say. He's interviewed on this ABC docu series and he's all in on it. He finds him believable, he finds the story to be coherent. It is supported by the witnesses. And so by 6am the next morning, at the same time that at the park, they're cleaning up all the rubble and saying that it's some sort of electrical fire, he's putting out a bulletin to be out on the lookout for the bikers that Les described. And you got to think, with this description, if that bulletin had been pursued, they would have found these people. They would have found these people and they at least would have interviewed them. And maybe it would have turned out that he was making this up or he misheard it, or they were just hanging out, they just rode the ride 10 minutes beforehand, no big deal. Maybe that would have happened, but we'll never know because at 12pm Only six hours later, Les is asked to come back down to the station for another interview. And he's not interviewed by the Same person who talked to him before. And he's not interviewed with the lady from the youth hostel, which should have happened because he's a minor at the time. He's interviewed alone by two detectives, and he will later say that he was bullied into changing his story. Police made him feel that something bad would happen to him if he didn't agree to say that he had lied before. Les would later say he'd had run ins with the law. He didn't really trust the cops and he knew they were probably right, that some bad would happen to him. So he withdrew his previous statement and he said it was all a lie unless ends up being the only person who's ever been charged in relation to the Ghost Train fire. He is charged with giving a false statement and fined and put on probation.
- [48:34]
A
This just shows you the level of corruption. They charged him because everyone was on their side. Right? This goes further just in case anyone looked at his statement later. It would discredit him. But to go so far, they didn't just lie and have him change it and pressure him to change it. They went so far as to charge him. That's how deep the corruption is. That's how deep the bribery goes here.
- [48:55]
B
And they do all this despite the fact he's saying that he heard this from the bikies, that they poured kerosene. Multiple witnesses reported smelling kerosene on the scene. This is a story that has multiple people, independent sources. It's better than Jen Pusateri. Multiple unrelated people are saying, we heard similar things or we smelled things that confirmed this. There's all these different pieces. It's a traditional circumstantial case. All these different pieces are coming together from independent sides. Every person has one little tiny piece of it, and they're giving it, and it's building a picture that tells us what happened. And the police ignore it.
- [49:34]
A
And in fact, it was kind of a throwaway. Part of one of the ride attendants, the ride attendant who went in and saved a bunch of people and couldn't go any further, but actually saw the seven victims through the flames and couldn't get to them. They have the camera trained on him when they tell him, you know, he said, they asked him, do you smell anything? He's like, yeah, there was like a kerosene smell. And they said, what would you say if someone said, in fact, that they also smelled kerosene? And you. He. No one had ever told him that. So it wasn't that someone had jogged his memory or even planted in his mind. The thought about kerosene. His mind was blown when he realized he was not the only one who smelled kerosene.
- [50:11]
B
Now, despite the fact that he was charged and ultimately convicted and that the bulletin was immediately withdrawn to look out for bikies, to this day, Les is adamant that his first date was truthful. Tina remains adamant as well about what she heard. And Les and Tina weren't the only ones who noticed the group of bikies. And in total, seven different witnesses mentioned them, including a Luna park superintendent, Alan Chappell, and one of the ghost train attendants who recalled a group of bikies matching the description Les provided going into the ride about 10 minutes before the fire was noticed. None of these witnesses were asked to testify during the coroner's inquest. And in fact, police told these witnesses that Bakis weren't responsible and they should just forget it. And this is incredible. I mean, the timing, the fact you have people who aren't saying they heard the bikies say they did anything. They saw Bakis going to the ride 10 minutes before the fire was noticed. Now we know that multiple people went through, saw the flames before it became evident that there was a fire really going on. The people who saw the fire in the fireplace, no big deal. They got off. Then another group goes through, and it's much worse. And you have less saying that this group of bikies is standing outside the fire talking about what they've just done. The timing is impeccable for this, that they are the ones who are responsible for this. But the police, either through pure corruption or absolute negligence. I mean, maybe, you know, the commissioner's already set up some electrical fire. So anybody who says it was something else, we need to need to get rid of those folks. Either way, they are suppressing this evidence and suppressing this testimony. Guys, I don't know about you, but I'm really busy. And half the time I forget to eat, and the other half of the time, when I decide it's time to eat, I don't have anything to eat and I certainly don't have time to make it. And I didn't buy anything to put together some fancy meal. Hunger strikes and I'm exhausted. Thank goodness for factor with factor. I'm hitting my nutrition goals this season without the planning, without the grocery runs or the cooking Factor has meals built around your goals, whether that's weight loss, overall nutrition, more protein, or GLP1 support for strength and workout recovery. Check out Factor's Muscle Progress Pro collection. Recently I had their steak and peaches it was so good. I did not believe that I could get a good steak from a mail order meal company like Factor. And yet there it was. It was delicious and it hit the spot. Every meal is crafted with functional ingredients. Lean proteins, colorful veggies, whole foods and healthy fats. Factor bands 175 ingredients and no artificial colors or sweeteners. No high fructose corn syrup, no refined seed oils, just nutrient dense food.
- [53:25]
A
Guys, I love Factor. I've been relying it. I've been relying on Factor so much this summer because all my kids are home and I still have to work and do this podcast. But I have these delicious meals at the ready in my refrigerator. I love it and you will too. Head to FactorMeals.com prosecutors50off and use code prosecutors50OFF to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only while supplies last until September 27, 2026. See website for more details. You guys know my love for Honey Love. And that's because, guys, I need support for my body, but I want to be comfortable. That's why I've completely switched all my bras to Honey Love bras. And I need shapewear. Whether I'm going to court or I just want to feel confident in my body. And Honey Love is the one that I reach for because it's comfortable, I forget I'm wearing it. And yes, that's shocking. Ladies, I know shapewear you actually forget you're wearing because it's that comfortable. Yes, that's Honey Love I can wear all day and feel comfortable. And their bras are so supportive and comfortable. You know that you need lift and structure. So you're used to kind of these, you know, stiff wires, but not with honeylove. They give you just the right amount of support without having to use these wires. Honeylove is an independent female founded brand. All Honey Love products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them, including their founder Betsy, who's highly involved in the development of each product. And look, I know that finding the right bra can be such a headache, especially as you get older. And it can be frustrating. What used to work just doesn't anymore. You want lift, shape and support, but without those stiff wires. That's exactly where honeylove stands out. Their bras are designed to provide lift and structure using innovative bonding technology instead of uncomfortable underwire. So you get that secure lifted feel without the poking, pinching or constantly adjusting. Right, Brett?
- [55:22]
B
Right, Alice. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off honey love@honeylove.com prosecutors that's honeylove.com prosecutors after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard and comfort and support with Honey Love.
- [55:49]
A
So in the early 1980s, there were a series of arsons in King's Cross. In all instances, kerosene was used in five of the six fires. Saffron had a financial interest in the properties. An investigation was done at the time, but charges were never filed against Saffron. So basically, there were all these, like, business buildings and for some reason or another, he was tied to them and they were just like going up in flames. Right? We've all heard about insurance fraud before now. He's been able to evade basically every sort of thing that he's been suspected to be a part of. Now, despite that, it seems that arson for financial gain was something that Saffron was pretty comfortable with. Now, Detective Doug Knight, who was chosen to lead the Luna park investigation, he was on site within the hour of the fire. This was strange because Knight had a bad reputation in the department and this was obviously a huge fire. There were seven deaths. It was going to be prime time for the investigation. So those who knew him were confused that he would be the one to be put in charge of such a big investigation. He was known as kind of a scumbag cop who was more than willing to fix the results of a court case for certain people or a fee. And he would delete, change and fabricate evidence to support whatever story he was telling. In the Luna park case, he was the one who had the scene completely destroyed within hours and was even accused of intimidating witnesses, telling them to forget about the biking that they saw. Then there's Deputy Commissioner Bill Allen. He was also on the scene working with Doug Knight at the Luna park fire. He was the boss of Doug Knight and he was completely corrupt through and through. He was a known associate of Abe Saffron. Allen ultimately served time in prison for bribing a fellow officer. And then there are several witnesses who had said they smelled kerosene in the ghost train, with which is a known accelerant.
- [57:44]
B
So that's the evidence for arson. And now sort of give it to you. We're going to tell you what we think, but I think it's pretty obvious. Give it to you. What do you think? Is this an accident? Was this a carelessly disposed of cigarette? Or was this something far more nefarious? And I'll just go ahead and give you my thoughts on this. I think this is pretty obvious. I think if you're looking for a conspiracy that is real, this is the case for you. Because you have a situation where there is a reason for the conspiracy to happen. There are the means to bring it together. There are the individuals who are in a position to further the conspiracy. There's evidence of doing something like this at other times, and there is concrete evidence that they actually did engage in a conspiracy to light this fire. To me, I think it's pretty obvious what happened. I think Saffron used arson for his purposes. He was burning down buildings, possibly for insurance fraud. The other thing you do is you burn down the building and you buy the land cheap. You know, you want to put up. And if you watch the documentary, it seems a lot of the targets of these fires were gay nightclubs. And probably what Saffron's doing is he sees he can make more money on that property, he burns it down, he buys the property, or he gets an interest through a shell company, he puts up one of his facilities, and then all of a sudden he's got even more property in the Cross, he's making even more money here. You know, I don't know exactly what their ultimate plan was with Luna Park. They eventually gained control of it. They sold off a lot of it, but it seems like they were stopped from destroying it completely. It ended up remaining an amusement park. But what they did was they then put in a bunch of their gaming machines and they made a bunch of money that way. And that was something they didn't have access to under the previous lease holders. I think, basically, he had some thugs who were gonna do this. They were bikers, they worked for him. He paid him to do it, or one of his associates paid them to do it. Remember? When did this happen? I think it's possible this happened actually a little early. You know, you have that one guy who's telling the other one, he put the kerosene down, he lit the fire. I don't know that he was supposed to do it right at that point, it seems like the leader was like, you shouldn't have done that, and they leave. But it happens at the very end of the day. Other rides are closing. This is the last ride for the boys, it's the last ride for the family. This is literally the last thing they're going to do before they leave because the park is closing down. So if you were going to start the fire, I mean, arguably it's easier to start the fire while the place is running. Show it to break in. You're just there and you start the fire. I think it's possible they were supposed to start the fire once people started leaving, you kind of create the fire and you leave. Maybe it was started a little early or maybe this just was the best time to do it. These bikies go through, they light the fire. They're not thinking anybody's going to get hurt because they just assume everybody's going to get out. We're just starting a fire. People will see the fire, they'll get out, they'll shut down the ride, the fire will go. We'll accomplish our ends. I don't think they intended to kill anyone. I don't think they particularly cared if they killed anyone. I think the whole purpose of this was to shut down the park, to reopen the bid on the lease, to get the lease and to make money. And unfortunately, it worked. They did exactly what they wanted to do. If that was the plan, it completely worked out. And Abe Saffron made money off of it, and he died in 2006, and he was never held accountable for what he did. But that doesn't mean that we can't have that information out now. And this report, if it reaches that conclusion, it should be released. I don't know why this is. Love you guys in other countries, but all the British countries except for America have these weird privacy rules where they protect people even after they're dead and they don't want to accuse anybody of anything, you know, and. And unless it breaks, oftentimes, you just don't find out. There's one famous case. I forget the guy's name. He was a presenter in Britain. Famous guy, child predator, absolute child predator. Molested tons of children. That didn't come out until after he died. And they tried to cover it up at that point. And I feel like this is a similar situation where they know exactly what happened in Australia and they got this report and they won't release it publicly. And unfortunately, they don't have the First Amendment, so it's not like it is here. Give that report to a family member here and be public the next day in Australia. I don't think that's necessarily the way it goes. It should be released. The public should know. All the information should be out there and people should be held accountable, even if they're dead, for what happened, because the boys deserve that, the family deserves that, and everyone in Australia deserves it. And I think it would go a Long way to re establishing people's faith in the police and the judiciary. If they called out the people who were responsible for this, if they made it public and they answered this question once and for all. So we didn't have to speculate about what happened at Luna Park.
- [62:49]
A
So I think that's right, that this was absolutely arson and it was tied to Abe Saffron. He was not the one who lit the match, but he obviously gave the orders and he had people who probably didn't set fires regularly. Right. These were not like sophisticated arsonists because of the way they acted. They were ne' er do wells and they got paid a chunk of money to do this and they did. I will go down the conspiratorial route because yes, it was lit at the end of the day, but I do think that it was supposed to be lit at the time, that it was to minimize the harm that it may do to people. But it wasn't set in the middle of the night because you could have had ne' er do wells scale the fence at 2am when the park was completely closed down and light a fire and still blame it on electrical faulty wiring. But have no fear that anyone was going to be on the ride. I think it was near the end of the day and that there was some thought at least that there had to be harm or the fear of harm. Hopefully nobody died, but if someone did, it helps our cause better. Because remember what happened. We know it's the Ghost Train. What happened to the Ghost Train? Two years before the fire, there was a fire inspection. They failed the fire inspection. They had to do all these other measures to basically bring it up to code. No code was done. I'm not saying that not bringing it up to code was part of the conspiracy, but it was known that they were in violation of the fire code. There were no emergency exit signs. There were no sprinklers. It was a maze inside. It was a dark ride. That was the whole purpose of the ride. So you would know if you knew anything about these rides, that this would be a good ride to set a fire in because it would be really difficult to detect and it would be really difficult to put out and it would cause real harm to people in it. Also, remember back when there were fights about the lease, there was fights about turning this into a business place. And the government itself said, no, it's too much of a landmark. It's brought joy and frivolity to generations. We're not going to tear down Luna park for a different purpose. What is a great way to change the public's mind about a beloved landmark? Death. A horrendous death or fear of death. Let's say everyone came out with smoke inhalation, but nobody dies. That still gets you there. So the hope is maybe nobody dies. But if someone were to die, that certainly would turn public opinion against it very fast to be able to get that lease for your purposes as well. So it's possible these bikies jumped the gun, but they were just bikies. They were told to do it, or at least they were sent into the park to do it. They weren't told to do it in the middle of the night and scale the fence. They were going on it. Maybe they jumped the gun just a little bit because it was closing. They wanted to make sure that they got their payment. And in order to get the payment, they had to light the fire. What if the ride was closed before they got on it? Then they don't get their payment. So maybe they did jump the gun a little bit, but the orders were at that time, they weren't sent there at 2am when the park was clearly closed. So I don't think that Abe Saffron necessarily was like, let's go kill people. But I do think this fire was meant to be set at a time when people were there. It was supposed to be set in a place that was going to be dangerous while it was still running for people. And this is the classic like, well, I wasn't trying to kill anyone. I was just firing a loaded gun into a crowded movie theater with no exits. What do you think's going to happen? And I think that's what happened here. And I think murder is not too strong of a word because it's not just negligence and it's not just an accident or a byproduct of arson. I think murder was part of the plan the entire time because too much money was at stake. And that's what happened here. That's the conspiratorial part of my theory. I think the unequivocal result conclusion that the police have to come out with is obviously that this is arson. The reasons in whether I don't think these seven were targeted, they were truly at the wrong place at the wrong time. But also remember what Brooklyn said to his daughter, don't be there, because harm was going to come to someone and it was not going to be his daughter, and he knew it wasn't going to be in the middle of the night. It was when people were still there. So I think all along this fire was tied to harm to people.
- [67:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, in some ways it's an act of terrorism. And look, I think to the extent it was sloppily done, or maybe people are only supposed to be scared but not killed, seems pretty obvious. This was their first attempt at arson. This is the first time they used arson to get what they wanted and it worked. And what do you see in the years that follow? You see all these other arsons in the cross with kerosene. So basically they do the ghost train fire. It works. They get what they want and then they use the same method in other places. Abe Saffron did this. Doug Knight and Bill Allen covered it up with the help of the premier at the time and probably the justice as well. And a lot of police officers who are involved. And look, we talk about corruption and how corruption works and how conspiracies work. I don't think the officers who interviewed less the second time were told, hey, we just killed seven kids for Abe Saffron. We need to cover this up. Go do it. Go convince Les this didn't happen. I think they were given marching orders that basically was. This was an electrical fire. That's what we've determined. That guy's lying. Go get him to retract his statement. And those officers went and did it. They did exactly what they were told. As Alice said, you really only need the top people to be in the know. For something like this to work, it doesn't have to be a situation where everybody knows this is not a case where, as we talked about, it's funny, I feel like I compare everything to AD on sad, but in the AD on SAD case, one of the problems is, you know, you got this car that's out in the middle of nowhere and part of your conspiracy is that you have all these beat cops who at any time could just come upon the car and ruin the whole thing, you know, and that's a problem, like how many people are involved in this, like how many chances you want to take. You don't need that here. All you need is your top people directing people to do certain things and everything comes together. And I think that's what happened. And I think it worked so well that led to other fires. So I don't think this is a mystery. I think this is a solved mystery. It's only a mystery in that Australia has not confirmed what I think we all know to be true. And if it's not true or if they have evidence to the contrary, then Abe Saffron deserves that to come out. Either way, this should come out. Either the man did it or he didn't. And either the police have evidence that he did it or they have evidence that he didn't do it. Either way, release the information. The public deserves to know. That's my position on it. I don't know anything will change. I wouldn't lose sleep tonight. Because you don't know what happened? Because we know what happened. And I think Abe Saffron was an evil person. And it's sad that six children lost their lives and a father lost his life because of his greed and because of his need to control things. But I think that's what happened. And as we always say at the conclusion of these cases, I think it's important to remember the victims who lost their lives. John Godson is a 29 year old dad who the last thing he did was he tried to protect his sons, Damien and Craig. And then you have the four boys, Richard Carroll, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Billings, Seamus Raheeli. I mean, those are the people to remember. And I hope that there is a memorial to them to this day in Sydney. I know the people of Sydney have not forgotten them and I think the justice you can do for them is to release every bit of information about what happened that night. Okay. Well, guys, this has been a heavy case, but I hope you did enjoy the coverage of it. I think it was worth three episodes. If you're in Australia, I would love to know your thoughts on this. I would love to know anything we got wrong. You know, we just did this German case where there was an interview on German television which actually provided some information we didn't have. If there's more information available to you in Australia, things you've seen, things you've heard, we would love to hear it. We'll share it in a future episode. Don't expect there's going to be much contradicting what we said in this one, but you never know. We're always open to more information. Shoot us an email prosecutors pod gmail.com@ ProsecutorsPod for all your social media. If you want to discuss this case, go on the Gallery, our fan run Facebook page. There's always great discussions going on there. If you have not watched it. Exposed the Ghost Train Fire, three episodes. It's available on YouTube.
- [71:39]
A
One of the best documentaries I've ever seen. I mean, truly, it's incredible.
- [71:43]
B
Now have your Kleenexes for the first episode and go on the second one. It's heavy stuff and as I Said if you're a parent of kids or if you like kids at all, you're going to be affected by this episode. It is rough and it is horrific and it's terrible. But it's one of those things where I think it does honor to them to face it, you know, to see what happened and to not turn your back on it. And it's a great documentary. It truly is a wonderful documentary. And it lays out a lot of the information we've talked about in even better detail. And you see the videos, you see the photos. Incredibly convincing. Hats off to them. Happy to watch anything ABC Australia does, Ultimo does in the future. All right, Alice, do you want to answer a question or anything? Sure.
- [72:33]
A
Yes.
- [72:34]
B
Okay.
- [72:34]
A
After we finished out this series, I know it was a long episode today, but it was do the time. And I hope justice is done here.
- [72:44]
B
Yes. It's never too late.
- [72:45]
A
It's never too late.
- [72:46]
B
It doesn't matter how much time passes. It is never too late for truth and justice.
- [72:51]
A
And this has affected the witnesses too immensely because they don't have closure. And they've been gaslit this entire time, telling them to forget what they smelled and what they saw with their own eyes.
- [73:00]
B
And they lived with this their whole lives. You never forget something like this. You know, that poor guy who's a hero who rushed into that inferno, saved untold lives, but to this day, the thing he remembers are the seven people he couldn't save. That's what he remembers. And he's just an ordinary guy, just a normal person. And, you know, he deserves the truth. The other people on the ride deserves the truth. Obviously, the families deserve the truth. Everyone deserves the truth in this case. And yeah, I mean, we chose to do a case called the Ghost Train Fire. I thought this one would be fun. And then you spend five minutes looking at it and you're like, oh, no, this is not gonna be fun at all. But I do hope you enjoyed it nevertheless. Okay, America 250. Alice is wearing her semi sesquitenial shirt. So let's do a nice America themed question. By the time you hear this, I think It'll be after July 4th. I mean, it's upon us. It's almost here. This is from Love156. Love156 is apparently a teacher. And she says, my students read a story in which it states that Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer without going to law school. We all want to know, is this possible just in that time period, or was he that intelligent or just lucky? Is it possible today for my fifth graders. Thanks for answering.
- [74:22]
A
Great question. Here's an interesting answer. Depends on your state. Back then, you did not necessarily have to go to law school to become a lawyer. Law school doesn't teach you some great skill the way medical school does. It doesn't teach you how to perform surgery or where the different arteries are. Law school is really teaching you a way to think, to spot the problems and to think about how to solve those problems. With that said, most states now require you to have gone to an accredited law school to be able to take the bar, which is the licensing body that keeps you from being able to practice law. So does taking the bar or going to law school do something magic to allow you to become a lawyer? Not really. It is honestly a gatekeeping function so that I think lawyers can keep their rates high so that not anyone can just call themselves lawyer. In California, at least, I believe you can sit for the bar without having gone to law school. Is that still true?
- [75:23]
B
As far as I know, you can still do that?
- [75:25]
A
I think that's true. That's partly why the California bar passage rate is one of the lower passage rates across the country, because you don't have to know it. You know, the thing about going to law school is they're usually trying to teach it so that you can pass the bar, but you can sit for it. You have to pay for the test. The test is not cheap. And it, if you study for it, you know, it can take a lot of money if you buy a prep course and spend weeks, months studying for it. So that is a way now whether you'll be hired by, you know, reputable law firms or governments to be able to be a lawyer in California, I don't know. I don't know what the practical effect is. But if you just want to say that you have passed the bar, you're a lawyer in California, you don't have to go to law school.
- [76:05]
B
So people sometimes ask, what is our controversial opinion that we believe in? So my controversial opinion, my only one of course that I believe in, is that the bar is an anti competitive sham that should be disbanded and made illegal in every state. That law schools are inherently a waste of time and money, they shouldn't be banned. I mean, you should go to law school. Law school's fine if you want to go there. But do you want to?
- [76:34]
A
Can I add to that?
- [76:35]
B
Okay, go.
- [76:36]
A
No, no, no, I totally agree with you on that. Can I add to that? Of all the professions, I think apprenticeship is probably the best Law learning endeavor. If you just shadowed, like, I don't think you can shadow a surgeon and all of a sudden be able to do brain surgery. But I think if you wanted to be a really good lawyer, you never have to go to law school. You can just follow around Brett, and you would probably become a fantastic lawyer. And it's funny because apprenticeships usually follow things like plumbing or electricians, but lawyering is honestly just as intensive of having to watch a master do their craft to learn and to do it in order to learn in the way of, like plumbing and electricity. Electricians. Unless you do it, you're not going to learn how to do it. So I totally agree with you. And I wanted to add the apprenticeship aspect of it.
- [77:22]
B
Absolutely. And that's the way it should be. Because if you go down, I don't care where you live in America, if you go down to the fifth most successful lawyer in your town, not even the most successful, and the fifth most successful one in your town, maybe even lower than that. And you spend three years working with that guy, going to trial that guy, researching for that guy, helping that guy prepare for oral arguments, helping him draft wills, helping him talk to clients, helping him go down to the jail. You spend three years doing that, you are going to be a better lawyer than anyone who has attended any law school in America, no matter how well they did. The top of the class at Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Georgetown, Chicago, wherever you want to go would not be a better attorney than the guy who spent three years with the fifth best lawyer in Jasper, Alabama. And the fact that you can't spend three, make it more, make it five if you want to make it five. That you can't apprentice for that amount of time and then sit for the bar. And if you pass the bar, you should be able to practice law just like anybody who went to law school and, and sat in the classroom. You know, my cyber law class I took from Charlie Nessen, who had a law office in Jamaica because he liked to smoke pot. And he'd fly down to Jamaica and he'd disappear for six months at a time and get high. And then he'd come back where we made video games and talked about whether our video games should be copyrighted. And I got an A in that class because my video game that involved demons coming out of portals and then getting killed. And every time you killed a demon, a new portal would open. You think I learned anything about the law in that class? I mean, come on, it's an absolute joke. And there are law schools that teach you more than I learned. But you will learn so much more working for someone who's doing it. And the fact that we have this anti competitive guild system with lawyers that raise rates, that make it harder for people who are lower income to get quality legal representation because it's so expensive and the gate is so high and it's so hard is absurd. It's an injustice and it should be done away with. And every one of y' all should hate the bar associations. They're evil. The fact that I can't go practice law in Mississippi without waving in and paying a fee to the guild masters in Mississippi is absurd. It's a joke. I can't believe in the modern world we are still doing it this way. It's absurd. It is backwards. I hate it, I despise it. And it needs to be gotten rid of. And if you want to keep the bar exam because you actually think that keeps bad lawyers out, then fine. You know, California does have a really hard bar. If you pass the California bar, you deserve to be a lawyer. The former dean at Stanford failed the California bar the first time she took it. When she got a job in California, she was a Supreme Court litigator. It's a hard test. Make the test hard, that's fine. If you want that to be your bar, fine. But it shouldn't be. You have some fancy degree that you paid $300,000 for. That should not be the standard by which you're judged about whether you can be a lawyer. So that's my position on it. Everyone should listen to me. It shouldn't be controversial. It should be the universal position position. And I hope one day it becomes the rule.
- [80:50]
A
I have a more problem with law school than I do with the bar exam. I do think it's helpful to have a function to like you really want it. You should like care about it. Now if it were more tailored to what you were going to do, I think that'd be great. I think you should also be able to waive it if you did the apprenticeship. Now needing a law degree is. There are all these graduate programs around the country. Most PhD programs are funded like you don't pay to go. But every other graduate program is a money making endeavor for the institutions. And law school being one of the most money making endeavors because they're pushing their lawyers to go to big law firms, have golden handcuffs, make a lot of money, donate a lot of money to their law schools. But the fact that you're leaving law school, I think I've Said this before, I have classmates who did not have family support going to college or law school, and they went to the best colleges and law schools they got into, which happened to be, you know, Ivy Leagues and also located in New York City, meant that when she graduated, no one else in her family had really gone to higher education. So they couldn't advise her on this. When she graduated with impressive degrees, by the way, she had nearly a million dollars of debt. A million dollars of debt at the age of 25. It doesn't matter how long you work at a law firm, it is really hard to pay off a million dollars. And by the time you actually do, you haven't started building your own life. Talk about generational wealth, like going down the drain. That million dollars could have been investing the entire time. Instead, you're paying interest rates and using all this money because everyone else around you is telling you, well, of course you got into Yale. You have to go. Look, going to Yale has opened a lot of doors for me. They gave me money to go. I was very thankful I did not graduate with a million dollars of debt. But many of my classmates did do that. And that is a travesty, especially I think, for people who are not from this world who don't know the things that we're telling you right now.
- [82:43]
B
I had a friend who went to an Ivy League college, an Ivy League law school and had to borrow money for the whole thing. And by the time. I didn't know this is possible, by the time she was a 3L, she had to find other funding because she hit the cap. Wow. Apparently you can only borrow so many millions of dollars because.
- [83:02]
A
Because it's millions of dollars. When you factor. Factor in the, like housing, like living in New York City for four years. That's a lot of money.
- [83:10]
B
Yeah. Anyway, that's my thoughts.
- [83:12]
A
This is how I feel about it.
- [83:16]
B
If you're listening, you can't see this, but Alice froze earlier in the recording.
- [83:20]
A
That was a good picture, a beautiful moment. It really is such a good picture. Well, great question, but let me say this to the 5th graders. I hope it doesn't discourage you from pursuing the law, if that is your passion. But don't just go to law school because you think that it's some special unlocking into a portal. If you are curious, there are so many ways to make a great living without going into a million dollars of debt. You can also, by the way, go to law school much more cheaply. You can go to law school at night, pay a fraction of the Price while you work. And it may take a little longer. It may take four years instead of three years, but that way you're not going to as much debt. You don't necessarily have to just go to the shiniest law school or undergrad that you get into in order to become a lawyer.
- [84:08]
B
And if you are a lawyer, fight the power. Down with the law school monopoly. Down with the bar. You have nothing to lose but your chains. Okay. All right, guys. Well, this has been awesome. Obviously, if you have a question you want to leave a question you want to have us answer, you really get our most fiery opinions on the questions. Just leave a five star review in Apple. If you review us on some other place where you leave the stars, but not any words, just send me an email. We got some great questions on email, so feel free to do that and we'll answer your questions that way. All right, Alice, anything else you want to say before we sign off for today?
- [84:42]
A
No. Thank you for everyone who told us to cover this case because it's been an incredible journey, and I hope in our lifetime we get to see justice done.
- [84:51]
B
All right, guys, this has been a good case. We'll be back with a new one next week. But until then, I'm Brett.
- [85:00]
A
And I'm Alice.
- [85:02]
B
And we are the prosecutors. All right, here we go.
- [85:25]
A
My America shirt. That was beautiful because I voted today.
- [85:28]
B
I'm wearing the same shirt I wore yesterday because I didn't take a shower today. Don't tell.
- [85:31]
A
Wearing the same earrings.
- [85:32]
B
There you go. Going live. Doing it live. We're doing it live. Yeah. Love it. Glad we did.
- [85:39]
A
Happy primary day for those voting today.
- [85:41]
B
Yeah, I voted.
- [85:42]
A
I saw. I did see that. Actually, the reason I'm a little bit late is I forgot to vote during the day. And so I toted like a bunch of kids with me right at dinner time to vote because, gosh darn it, we're still gonna vote. And it was really cute. They had little kid ballots for them.
- [85:56]
B
Did they really like, I mean, they
- [85:58]
A
were not real ballots and they had. It was like civics, Sam, As I forgot to vote during the day. And so I toted like a bunch of kids with me right at dinner time to vote because, gosh darn it, we're still going to vote. And it was really cute. They had little kid ballots for them.
- [87:09]
B
Did they really like.
- [87:11]
A
I mean, they were not real ballots and they had. It was like a civics question, like, how many stars are on the flag?
- [87:18]
B
That was really cute,
- [87:28]
A
Sam.
- [88:04]
B
Hello and welcome to Pluto Foe. If you knew the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto tv, where all your blockbuster favorites are landing all summer long. Catch. Anchorman. The Legend of Ron Burgundy. Fantastic. The Matrix Trilogy. Well, welcome to the real world, Mean Girls. Shut up. Titanic. I'm the king of the world. And so much more. For Showtime's press nothing. They're free 24. 7.
- [88:29]
A
That is so effective on Pluto TV.
- [88:31]
B
Stream now.
- [88:32]
A
Pay Never. If the world were like a Sleep Number mattress, everything would adapt for your comfort. Your coffee would never get cold, your flight would always be on time, and your mattress would always respond to you and your unique sleep needs. Sleep Number mattresses are designed to respond to your body and shift with your changing life, helping you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. To experience a whole new world of comfort, visit a Sleep Number store or go to sleepnumber.com sleep number to a good life, sleep.