372. Never Forgive Henry Symeonis -- Oxford Comma

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prosecutors

Episode 372: "Never Forgive Henry Symeonis -- Oxford Comma"
Air Date: July 21, 2026
Hosts: Brett & Alice
Platform: PodcastOne

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Overview

In this episode of The Prosecutors, Brett and Alice depart from high-profile murder investigations for a historical mystery rooted in academia: the story of Henry Simeonis, a man so notorious in Oxford University’s early history that students were required—by oath, for centuries—not to reconcile with him. Drawing together history, unsolved mysteries, and true crime, the hosts explore the origins, legacy, and eventual unravelling of the Oxford oath, tying it to broader university traditions and the “town and gown” dichotomy.

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Main Discussion Points

I. Modern Academic Traditions & Ivy League Banter

• [01:12-06:25]
  • Playful comparisons of Alice and Brett’s Ivy League graduations (Yale vs. Harvard) and their graduation oddities, e.g. Alice’s class speaker—a therapy dog named Monty.
    • Memorable quote:
      • Alice: “Who do you think was my class speaker? ... It was our therapy dog, Monty.” [03:57]
  • Discussion of graduation traditions (speeches in Latin, diplomas in Latin, class speakers).

II. Setting the Scene: Oxford’s Historical Context

• [06:36-09:37]
  • Oxford University’s founding in 1096; highlights of world events at the time to give cultural context (First Crusade, Norman Conquest, rise of the Toltecs).
    • Brett: “To give you an idea of how long ago that was, here’s some things that were happening in and about 1096...” [07:09]
  • Oxford’s medieval beginnings as a church classroom teaching theology and canon law.
  • The university’s global reputation and alumni.

III. The Mysterious Oath: "Never Forgive Henry Simeonis"

• [11:17-13:53]
  • For centuries, students seeking a Master of Arts at Oxford swore an oath (in Latin) never to reconcile with Henry Simeonis.
    • Brett (reading translated oath): “You shall swear that you will never consent to the reconciliation of Henry Simon, nor will you assume again the status of Bachelor.” [12:21]
  • The strangeness: students recited the oath without knowing Henry’s identity or his crime.

IV. Investigating the Oath’s Origins

• [13:53-23:08]
  • Timeline of the Oath:
    • 1264: Oath first appears in Oxford statutes, less than 200 years after the university’s founding.
    • 1608: Antiquarian Brian Twine documents rumors—Henry allegedly lied about his degree to join a foreign monastery—but admits these are baseless.
    • 1651 & 1827: Multiple statute reviews suggest removing the oath, but it remains until 1827, with no clear reason why.
    • 1874: Bishop Christopher Wordsworth speculates Henry betrayed Oxford for King John (again proved inaccurate).
    • 1912: Reginald L. Poole, Oxford’s archivist, finally uncovers the real story in the university’s records.
      • Brett: “He discovered what had eluded scholars for nearly 700 years. He found out exactly who Henry Simeonis was and exactly sort of what he had done.” [22:48]

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V. The True Crime: Who Was Henry Simeonis?

• [30:50-44:50]
  • Background:
    • Henry Simeonis (born c. 1225), wealthy son of a prominent Oxford townsman.
  • "Town vs. Gown" Conflict:
    • Frequent, often violent tensions between the townspeople and Oxford scholars—scholars had ecclesiastical immunity.
      • Brett: “These people literally are walking around with impunity. They can do whatever they want. If an Oxford student does something to you ... your only recourse is to appeal to the Oxford authorities—and guess what? Didn't happen that often.” [32:46]
  • The Crime (May 1242):
    • Simeonis and accomplices murdered an Oxford scholar. Reasons lost to history.
    • Oxford demanded justice from King Henry III, who instead issued only a mild penalty (a fine and temporary banishment).
  • Aftermath:
    • Simeonis returns (1243), resumes business openly, increasing outrage.
    • 1242–1264: Tensions escalate; King Henry III needs wealthy supporters like Simeonis in political/military crises, so he issues an official pardon and asks Oxford to forgive him.
      • Brett: “Why would he do this now? Not hard to figure out. He’s about to get into a big war. ... He needs the support.” [40:16]
  • Oxford's Response:
    • The university’s final answer is public, binding, and enduring: their leaders not only refuse to forgive but institutionalize the grudge for all future students, through the infamous oath (post-1264).
      • Alice: “Oxford University made it official. Not only would they not forgive Henry Simeonis, then they would never do so. And they made every student vow to do the same.” [45:09]
  • The oath persisted until 1827; its origins faded but the grudge remained.

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VI. Reflections and Irony

• [46:06-48:00]
  • Henry’s real legacy is only that Oxford’s refusal to forgive him immortalized his name.
    • Brett: “He probably wouldn’t be remembered at all save for the ultimate irony that Oxford, in its hatred for him, rendered his name immortal.” [46:43]

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Oxford’s Other Strange Traditions

• Oxford Time [54:08-55:36]:
  • All events set for five minutes past the hour, a holdover from a pre-railway era when local time was five minutes behind GMT.
• Formal Hall [55:36-56:53]:
  • Weekly three-course meals where students must wear full academic regalia (dark suits, gowns, mortarboards).
    • Alice: “You have to wear [a mortarboard] for dinner? How do you eat?” [56:44]
• No Walking on the Grass [56:53-57:31]:
  • Unspoken—though absolute—rule for students, with exceptions for professors.
• Hustings Debates [57:31-58:29]:
  • Candidacy debates notable for permitting deeply personal questions, beyond just policy.
• All Souls College & “One Word Essay” [58:39-59:49]:
  • Notoriously exclusive: the entrance exam included a legendary “one-word essay.”
    • Brett: “They shouldn’t have got rid of it. They should’ve kept it. Just like the oath.” [59:43]
• The Mallard Song [60:30-61:58]:
  • A procession and pageant (torches, “Lord Mallard” in a chair, a wooden duck) held only once a century.

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Listener Q&A and Closing

• Best Places Traveled in the U.S. [63:17-71:18]:
  • Reflections on natural beauty and memorable near-misadventures in places like Alaska, Wyoming, Colorado, and Maine.
    • Alice: “It feels like you’re on the edge of the earth and you are visiting nature, not the other way around.” [63:51]
    • Brett recounts a mildly harrowing hike with young children in Acadia National Park.
• Invitation to Listeners [73:52-74:20]:
  • Brett and Alice ask for submissions about quirky or unique traditions from other institutions or places.

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Notable Quotes

• Alice: “You may ask yourself this long history of the oldest English speaking world university—what did Henry Simon... do that could have possibly offended the university so deeply? ... And yet, for literal centuries, students repeated this oath but had no idea who this person was.” [12:33]
• Brett: “Kings asked them to do this and the King gets captured. King doesn’t have any power. So no is our answer. And not only no, but no one will ever, a million times ever, make peace with Henry Simeonis.” [45:52]
• Alice: “But it’s not the end of Oxford because we also thought we would share a few of the other strange Oxford traditions, because if you’re around for 800 years, you’re going to accumulate some other than just the oath.” [48:00]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:12-06:25: Banter about Ivy League traditions
• 06:36-09:37: Oxford’s founding and historical backdrop
• 11:17-13:53: “Never Forgive Henry Simeonis” oath explained
• 13:53-23:08: Tracing the oath’s history and failed attempts at removal
• 30:50-44:50: Full timeline and politics surrounding Henry Simeonis’ crime and the fallout
• 54:08-61:58: Overview of Oxford’s eccentric traditions
• 63:17-71:18: Listener Q&A—travel reflections and near-misadventures

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Tone and Style

• Light, witty, and conversational—mixing dry historical facts with good-natured ribbing and storytelling.
• Sprinkled throughout are self-deprecating college war stories and insider academic jokes, making the episode accessible and engaging to non-historians and true crime fans alike.

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Conclusion

The episode is a true “history mystery” that fuses a centuries-old academic grudge with present-day institutional quirks and the never-ending clash between tradition and progress. By rediscovering the real life and times of Henry Simeonis, Brett and Alice not only illuminate an obscure footnote in Oxford’s statutes, but also remind us how often old institutions become their own greatest legends.

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For fans of historical intrigue, mystery, and the ways that institutions weaponize tradition, this episode stands out as a perfect blend of humor, true crime, and scholarly sleuthing.

Transcript

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[Juliette Cowley]

Hi, I'm Juliette Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the true crime podcast the real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during, and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. And it's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.

[Brett]

I'm brett.

[Alice]

And I'm alice.

[Brett]

And we are the prosecutors. Today on the prosecut. Graduates from Oxford University have almost unlimited opportunities. But there is one thing they must never do. Make peace with Henry Simeones. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my summa cum laude co host, Alice.

[Alice]

Brett. I was, but I actually don't know what that means.

[Brett]

I think with highest honors, doesn't it?

[Alice]

With highest honors. I am with highest honors. At least you didn't say, like, cum laude.

[Brett]

Kosher. Without honors.

[Alice]

She made it just, just.

[Brett]

Just a little above non la day.

[Alice]

Non la day. Non la day. Nine.

[Brett]

Nine. That's a different language, the words.

[Alice]

I know it is.

[Juliette Cowley]

I know.

[Brett]

Honors.

[Alice]

Were you summa cum laude? Of course you were. You went to Harvard?

[Brett]

Well, not at Harvard.

[Alice]

Did Harvard have summa? Yes. Well, Yale didn't have honors at all, so there.

[Brett]

Well, Harvard did, but they didn't always have a summa. I don't think. I think you had. It was like a special thing. We did have one, just Magnum. I was there. The thing about Harvard, and I'm sure Yale was the same way, though.

[Alice]

Did you have a valedictorian?

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Alice]

Well, we did not. We did not have a valedictorian.

[Brett]

I feel like we had somebody who didn't have grades on behalf of the class, but I think they were just elected.

[Alice]

You like elected? You want to know who? I think I've said this before. This is why I Agree with people who say that the Ivy Leagues is a farce. Do you know who my class speaker was? It's elected. I think I do know this.

[Brett]

I think you told the story very early podcast. But for those who don't know, you

[Alice]

said that you had a student speaker. There is usually a class speaker where people vote upon who it's going to be. Let me just name some alumni who come from my school who are alive and who could have spoken. Hillary Clinton. Like, all the presidents.

[Brett]

Bill Clinton.

[Alice]

Bushes. Bill Clinton. Bush.

[Brett]

All the Bushes. Yeah, all the Bushes.

[Alice]

All the Bushes. Meryl Streep went to Yale. You know, like, there's a lot of people who are alive who you could choose from. Who do you think was my class speaker?

[Brett]

I'm going to just let you tell us.

[Alice]

I'll let the chat. Just, you know, just guess. You know what, Dignitary? It was our therapy dog, Monty. Not a famous therapy dog.

[Brett]

Just for him. He was like, bark into the microphone.

[Talkspace User/Testimonial]

No.

[Alice]

He walked across the stage and like, wagged his tail and I walked off and I was like, this is why we know that our school hates us.

[Brett]

Yeah. I have a vague notion of who it was, our class, but honestly, I barely remember. And the way they do it is they have the Harvard graduation and everybody goes to that. Like, every school goes to it. And then you, like, break out for the law school. One thing that's cool that Harvard does is they do a speech entirely in Latin. They do that in Yale.

[Alice]

One of the fancy.

[Brett]

No, there's a student who does a speech entirely in Latin.

[Alice]

And is it a Latin major or.

[Brett]

He just means it for the highest. He's basically the valedictorian of the language department or something.

[Alice]

That's pretty cool.

[Brett]

And it was cool because in the program, you get the speech in both Latin and English. And so this guy, his speech was all about how, like, Star wars and the Harvard experience were similar. And it was really interesting.

[Alice]

That is really cool.

[Brett]

He's saying Star wars words in Latin. It was cool.

[Alice]

That was pretty awesome.

[Brett]

Totally.

[Alice]

Yeah. Now my diploma is in Latin, so no one knows it's from Yale because it says Yalensis.

[Brett]

Ours is Harvardiana University.

[Alice]

D. Dodd Y.

[Brett]

What was funny? We had Ruth Bader Ginsburg as our speaker, and she famously did not.

[Alice]

Yeah. Supreme Court graduate from. In fact, they wouldn't let her in because she was a woman. Yeah. Because she was, like, raising children and taking care of her ill husband.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Exactly.

[Alice]

And she went to Columbia instead.

[Brett]

That's kind of ironic. We mention all this. Not so Alice can brag about where she went to school or the grades she got.

[Alice]

There's no bragging. Did you hear who my class speaker was?

[Brett]

We are crossing the pond to Oxford, England, home of the oldest university in the English speaking world. There is one university that is older. I forget. I think it's a German university. Sorry, Germans. Nine for you. Today we're only talking about England and Oxford and we're going to talk about one of the strangest things about Oxford that just so happens to tie in to a murder. So that's what we're talking about today. And Alice, I think we should go ahead and dive in. Unless you have any other Yale stories you want to tell.

[Alice]

No Yale stories, but you guys are going to like this one because this is going to be more of the history mystery mixed with true crime. You guys know this is Brett's forte, so buckle up, guys.

[Brett]

So Oxford University is known globally for its beautiful architecture, its world academics, often rated as the top university in the world, and it's incredibly rich history. Oxford is the oldest university in the English speaking world, dating back to 1096. Going on.

[Alice]

That's the medieval times, right?

[Brett]

Yes, definitely the medieval times. The high medieval times, the high deevil times. And I don't know that we'll live to see it, but a thousand years of Oxford University is coming up in the next few decades.

[Alice]

That's really crazy.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Brett]

Anyways, so that's exciting. We might make it to 950. We probably should make it to 950. But in any event, to give you an idea of how long ago that was, here's some things that were happening in and about 1096. So it was only 30 years after the Norman conquest of England in 1066 when William the Conqueror landed and conquered. As his name suggests, his son was on the throne at the time. The first crusade against the Turkish dominance of the Holy Land was launched in this year, the same year that Oxford was founded. Crusaders will eventually capture Jerusalem in 1099 and will rule it until 1187, which is longer than I thought it was a long time. And actually the kingdom of Jerusalem, the kingdom of the Holy Land lasts for much longer than that. Castilian King Alfonso VI gives the county of Portugal to his daughter's new husband as a dowry. And as you may know, the Spanish will never get it back in. Portugal is its own country to this day. Meanwhile, you know, Spain barely even existed at the time. So probably he's like, whatever. Portugal can't hold it anyway. El Cid is A famous Spanish hero, he had recently reconquered the Muslim city of Valencia. Spain had been conquered by Muslim armies a couple hundred years before this. King Surya Varman is born in the Kingdom of Khmer, and he is most famous for building Angkor Wat in his lifetime. So if you're familiar with Angkor Wat didn't even exist at this time. When Oxford is founded in the Americas, the Toltec empire is dominant. Though within 50 years, the empire will collapse. Really no one knows why it collapsed, leading to what is known as the Toltec diaspora. And some of these Toltecs will flee north where they will merge with the Mexica people. And they will build a new city based on a vision of an eagle with a snake in its beak perched atop a cactus in the middle of a lake. And that city will become Tenoctitlan, the heart of the Aztec Empire and modern day Mexico City. So that's what's going on in the world at the time that Oxford University is founded.

[Alice]

In other words, ancient history. This is happening now. At the time of its founding, Oxford consisted of little more than a church classroom where theology and Canon law were taught. It grew rapidly and it's now ranked one of the great universities in the world and has an acceptance rate of only 15%. Many well known politicians, academics, authors and actors have studied at the university, including Bill Clinton, T.S. eliot, J.R.R. tolkien, Hugh Grant, many more. And it's not just people from England, as you can tell from that list, but truly all over the world, it is the preeminent university therapy dog.

[Brett]

Maybe he got into Oxford after it was rousing speech at Yale. You never know.

[Alice]

You never know. But I doubt it because it was literally a mutt. It was a great therapy dog, but it was not, did not have a.

[Brett]

Oxford doesn't discriminate anymore.

[Alice]

It doesn't anymore, anymore. Now there are currently roughly 26,000 students at Oxford studying in one of the four academic divisions at the university. The Humanities division, the Mathematical, Physical and Life Sciences division, the Medical Sciences division, and the Social Sciences division. But in this long history, there is one man whose name is Anathema. One who every Oxford student was sworn never to make peace with. With such a long history, the university was bound to have some mysterious tidbits in their origins. But one such mystery is that of Henry Simeonis.

[Brett]

So up until 1827, so you know, once again, this place has been around since 1096. Up until 1827, all bachelors of arts, which I think is pretty much everybody at Oxford looking to get a Master of Arts. So if you're a bachelor and you wanted to get a Master of Arts, were required to swear an oath. So there was some standard language in the oath essentially to, you know, observe the university's statutes, its privileges, liberties, its customs, you know, the kind of things you might expect from an oath for a student. But there's one part of the oath that was different. In Latin, it read, magister tu jurabus quadruple nunquam consentus in reconciliation, Henrisi simeonis nextatum baccalaureat. And that translates to.

[Alice]

Wait, wait, were you the Harvard Latin speech giver? Look at that. That was beautiful.

[Brett]

Master. You shall swear that you will never consent to the reconciliation of Henry Simon, nor will you assume again the status of Bachelor.

[Alice]

So you may ask yourself this long history of the oldest English speaking world university. What did Henry Simon, what did he do that could have possibly offended the university so deeply? That every single student takes part in this oath to swear never to make peace with Simon. And you would expect that everyone would know exactly who Henry Simon was. And yet, for literal centuries, students repeated this oath, but had no idea who this person was. There was no mention of what Henry did wrong in any of the statutes. In fact, there wasn't even a reference to who Henry Simon was. So for centuries, his identity was a mystery. But that didn't stop Oxford students from making the oath year after year. And in the early 1900s, Henry's true identity was uncovered, but many details about his crime. There's the hook for our True Crime podcast. And just what exactly why the university hated him so much remain unknown until Brett got his talons into it.

[Brett]

There's a great article about this. It's entitled, I hereby swear to hate Henry Simeonis, whoever that is. That's essentially what was going on. As you're gonna see, for literal centuries, they continued to make this oath. So let's go through the history of the oath. We're gonna start with the timeline of the oath itself, and then we'll get into who this is and why this happened. The oath goes all the way back to 1264. So note the university was only founded in 1096. So this is not even 200 years after the university's been around now. 200 years. A long time to be a university, you know, especially in the modern world. But in the grand scheme of things, for Oxford, it's like, oh, it's a wee babe in education at this point. So this is when the promise never to reconcile with Henry Simeonis. And is he Henry Simon? Is he Henry Simeonis? Depends on whether you're using sort of his formal Latin title or his more common name. Things were just different back then. He is Henry, the son of Simon. So Henry Simeonis is his name anyways.

[Alice]

Simonson.

[Brett]

Exactly. Simonson. Exactly. In the modern. Oh, wonderful, Alice. So the promise never to reconcile with Henry is added to the Oxford oath in 1264. And year after year, students took this pledge. And probably in the beginning, they knew exactly why they were doing it. But as the years turned into decades, and then the decades turned into centuries, people forgot why. To the extent that historians who are old enough to be studied by historians, it's kind of like how in Egypt, Egypt was so old that in ancient Egypt there were Egyptologists whose job it was to study ancient Egypt. In ancient Egypt, it's the same thing. Like you have these historians who are now the subject of historians who are looking into this, trying to figure out who is this guy and why are these students having to swear never to reconcile with him. So that's 1264, 1608. So 344 years later, Brian Twine wrote Antiquitatus Academy Occiensis Apologia, which was a history of Oxford. Now, you know, you might think, oh, that's cool, they're writing history of Oxford. They've been around for 400 years. Well, the real purpose of the history of Oxford was to prove that Oxford was older than Cambridge. So Cambridge is one of the other great universities in England. And there was this debate about who was older. So he goes into this to write this great history. He's like in his 20s when he does it, to write this great history of Oxford and prove once and for all that Oxford is the oldest university in England.

[Alice]

He was probably awarded the highest honors of summa cum laude.

[Brett]

He probably was. He probably was. And I'm sure there were some in Cambridge who were like, yeah, of course the Oxford guy is saying Oxford old. Anyways, in this history, though, he includes the story about Henry Simeonis. And he does this attempt to figure out why is it that everybody hates this guy. And he basically says that there are stories and rumors that Henry was a regent in the arts who falsely claimed to be a Bachelor of arts. So he had not yet gotten his baccalaureate, I guess, of arts at the time. And he falsely claimed that he was an Oxford graduate when he attempted to enroll in a foreign monastery. Now, we'll talk about the merits of that in a second. It appears to be just a rumor. Twine cites no sources. Hopefully, he did a much better job of proving that Oxford was the oldest school in England than he did proving that this is who Henry was. And it's also not clear why this particular action, albeit potentially scandalous, could be bad. Shouldn't be claiming he graduated from school he didn't graduate from. That could be embarrassing, why it would lead to such an oath. Because he can't be the only person who ever claimed to graduate from Oxford who didn't. And yet he's the one that every single person is having to make this oath that they will never forgive.

[Alice]

So that's it. Brian Twine does all the digging. That's all he can get. This is 400 years from the time Henry Simon's name is added to the oath. What hope can we have now, a thousand years later, to shed some light on it? But again, I told you, Brett got his talents in this. So let's keep going through the timeline. Skip forward about half a century. 1651. Oxford reviews the statutes governing the school. And in reviewing the statutes, they look at this oath that every student has said year after year for 400 years, in fact. And someone suggests, guys, who's Henry Simon? We don't even know. This is an old school. We have lots of things to do. Let's remove this oath. No one records why, but given that it's been 400 years since the oath began, it's doubtful there was much hope of reconciling with Henry. Nevertheless, the motion fails and the oath remains. 1827. Oxford reviews the statutes once again. I really love that they only review their statutes every, like, meh, three to 400 years. Yeah, let's just see what's in there. So they review their statutes again, and once again someone says, guys, should we remove this oath? There are lots of important things. Things like the Hippocratic oath and the, you know what, doing good for man. And what is an Oxford man? No women at that time. But this time they're like, all right, yeah, let's remove the oath. But why it was there in the first place remains unknown. So though 1827 is the year the oath is officially removed, there's no record as to why it's removed, no reasoning where it says, hey, this is Henry. This is what he did. We're cool, now we can remove the oath. Nothing like that. So we still stand in a land of mystery as to who Henry Simeonis Simon Simonson is. Then we Fast forward to 1874. Bishop Christopher Wordsworth looks into the legend of Simeonis he suggests that the, quote, quaintly personal grudge had denied his degree like Saint Peter of old during the reign of the hated King John. The suggestion being that he did so to gain some favor or profit with the king.

[Brett]

And this is also sort of speculation, but it's more grounded in a possible reality than just he claimed he was from there and wasn't. Because King John, if you seen Robin Hood, King John is the villain in Robin Hood. He is the person who signed the Magna Carta at the point of a sword because he was such a terrible king. And you know, there has only been one King John in the entire history of England. Even though John's a pretty common name, John's name of, you know, one of the apostles, you think John would be the kind of name you'd want to take. But no other monarch has ever taken the name John because he's so despised. I mean, there's a Charles iii and the first one got his head cut off. But King John, no, not doing that right. So there's no John. And the idea was this is the ultimate betrayal. This is like Benedict Arnold selling out the Continental Army. It's a very similar thing. You sell us out to King John. That's a good reason that we would not want to have any association with you. But the bishop, much like previous reviewers, turns out to be wrong. That is not why Henry Simeonis was the subject of this oath in 1912. Finally, Reginald L. Poole, he was the keeper of the university archives. And this is 1912. So 750 years after the oath was originally entered into the statutes at Oxford, finally have somebody who's coming along and is really going to dig into this and he is able to find the answer once and for all in a feat of pure research at a time when research wasn't exactly easy. I mean, this is like Gandalf at the White City down in the archives, you know, digging through the papers, trying to figure out about the one ring. I mean, he's having to do that. He's having to go into the archives of this 800 year old university and try and find something about this guy. He's also looking into other records that are held that have survived all these centuries, trying to figure out who this guy was. And he does it. He discovers what had eluded scholars for nearly 700 years. He found out exactly who Henry Simeonis was and exactly sort of what he had done. So with that, we're going to back up and we're going to tell you the story of Henry Simeonis.

[Alice]

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[Brett]

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[Alice]

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[Alice]

So here's Henry's timeline around the year 1225 Henry Simeonis was born. He was the eldest son of an extremely wealthy townsman of Oxford named Henry, the son of a man named Simon. Henry Simeonis was extremely wealthy in his own right as well. He owned several pieces of land in and around Oxford at the time. But to understand what happened next, you have to understand the town and the rivalry that went on at the time. Even now, universities and the towns they sit in are often at odds. Things were far worse at this time because Oxford was an ecclesiastical school. It was under ecclesiastical rule, which meant that it's like there's diplomatic immunity there. Oxford town authorities had no power over what happened at Oxford University, and the scholars there often acted with impunity. The unhealthy dichotomy would lead to riots at times. And when Henry was alive, the tensions were boiling over in this town between the town and the ecclesiastical school that basically had immunity and did whatever it wanted.

[Brett]

And it's kind of funny because this whole town and gown thing has lasted to this day. I mean, those of you, especially at hoity toity schools, you know, there definitely was Harvard, Cambridge, the townies, quote, unquote, townies didn't like the students and the students didn't like them, particularly in a place like Boston, which has sort of a working class feel to it anyway. And then you got all these like stuck up kids at this university who think they walk on water. If you've ever seen the Matt Damon movie Good Will Hunting, there's some of that in Good Will Hunting, right? I'm sure, I'm sure.

[Alice]

Yale, definitely New Haven and Yale. The townies do not like the ivory tower. And the ivory tower thinks they're better than the townies, incorrectly.

[Brett]

But this was just, I mean, that's like minor. It's just you're annoying. We don't like you because you're annoying and you're stuck up. But this was a real different situation. I mean, you've got. These people literally are walking around with impunity. They can do whatever they want. If an Oxford student does something to you and you're someone who lives in Oxford, the only recourse is to appeal to the Oxford authorities and try and get them to punish the student. And guess what? Didn't happen that often. They didn't punish many students who did something to people in the town. If you did something to another student, maybe, but not the town situation. And it's all built into this idea of church authority over what is a. Essentially a religious school. And you actually see this throughout the Middle Ages. There is A real divide between ecclesiastical courts and the civil courts. You see this in things like the Inquisition. The Inquisition is an ecclesiastical court. It's often not the civil courts. It's not run by the king or the civil authorities. It's run by the church. And the Church is the one making determinations and issuing out punishments and everything else. Well, you saw this here. Just if you're trying to live your life in Oxford, you don't have any power when it comes to these kids at the school. And, you know, Henry Simeonis is not just some dude in Oxford. He's a rich guy. He's got lots of power in Oxford. So you can imagine he's even more aggrieved by this. He chafes at this notion that these Oxford kids can do whenever they want to and get away with it. They probably weren't kids at the time. I keep calling them kids because they're like, they're college students at the time. They're probably more like adults who were there taking these classes. But nonetheless, you have this definite rivalry going on. Which brings us to May 1242. Now, it's unclear what exactly precipitated it, but in May of 1242, when Henry himself was only around 18 years old, so he's a young guy at the time, though 18 back then was older than it is now. Henry and several men in town murdered Oxford University scholar. We don't know why. All we know is that it happened. And it goes without saying, Oxford was furious and they demanded justice. Now they have no power over Henry because they're ecclesiastical. So it's a similar thing. This time they're running into this problem. So what do they do? They demand that Henry should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. And they make this demand to the King of England. So at the time, King Henry III ruled England. And Henry and his family, Henry Simeonis and his family were patrons of the king and they were rich ones at that. They had a lot of money and they were supporting the king and a lot of the things he was doing. And this was particularly important because Henry's reign was fragile. He had assumed the throne and only nine years old when his father, the aforementioned King John, the hated King John, died in the midst of a civil war. And nobody like John, it got so bad, they had a civil war. They called it the Barons War. In the midst of this civil war, John dies. He probably dies of some natural causes, but there's always been allegations that he was poisoned on the eve of a battle very Difficult situation. Henry, who's supposed to take over, he's only nine years old, very easy to overthrow him. There were people in the court who sort of protected him and kept him alive. And in fact, by 1242, when all this happened, the civil war had been won. So Henry had managed to win the war. And really it was his advisors and Loyalists, they were able to win the war. He stayed king. But there were all these problems that had spiraled out from that, including Henry's French possessions, because remember who conquered England? The Normans. Where'd they come from? France. So there was a time when England ruled large sections of France. Well, during this whole civil war and everything else, what do you think happened? The French were like, great opportunity to take over those areas. So the French take over a bunch of the Crown lands in France. So Henry is now in war with France and he goes over to France to fight, to lead this war personally. And it had turned into a costly disaster. They spent a ton of money and they lost a bunch of battles. And they are retreating. And Henry is about to retreat back across English Channel. Things had gotten so bad and Henry needed all the friends he could get, especially the wealthy ones. And so Henry, he's over in France. This is how serious this is. He's in France fighting a war, trying to win a war. And Oxford is like, somebody's going to France and tell Henry what happened and demanding that Henry Simeonis have to suffer for what he did. So the message gets over to Henry III and Henry III issues a decree finding Simeones £80, which was more back then than it is now, but still, for a man like Henry Simeonis wasn't

[Alice]

to give up all his land in

[Brett]

Oxford, wasn't, you know, wasn't that big deal, and ordered him to leave Oxford for the time being until Henry III could return from France and address this issue personally.

[Alice]

So that was May of 1242. This decree goes out. Oxford is furious. But this is what King Henry III issues. Fast forward to fall of 1242. The king returns from abroad. Rather than return, it's honestly more of a retreat. And it's not surprising then that the King was in no position to deal out more punishment to Henry Simeonis. And remember, that decree said that Simeonus only had to leave Oxford for the time being until the King returned. The king is now back. So then, in the spring of 1243, Henry Simeonis is back in Oxford. And we know this through proven documentation from a real estate transaction. Apparently, Simeonis sold an island to the king. Henry's presence in Oxford only further inflamed tensions between the town and the gown. It was about to get much worse.

[Brett]

So yeah, I mean really kind of slapping Oxford in the face. I mean not only is he not being punished, he comes back and starts doing real estate transactions, wheeling and dealing

[Alice]

with the King, with the King.

[Brett]

But Oxford biden their time now, the

[Alice]

simmering hatred going back and forth. This simmers for a long time. In 1258, Henry had successfully won the civil war. But it was only a temporary reprieve. In 1258 the barons rose. Wales revolted, allying with the Scottish. And Henry had little money, having pledged much of it to the third Crusade. So seven major barons supported by the Queen rebelled and attempts were made to solve things through treaties and reform. But the revolt broke into a full on war in April of 1264. But first Henry went to Oxford.

[Brett]

So all this is going on, you have these barons who are revolting, the Queen apparently supports them, which had to make things pretty rough in the castle. You know, it's like, why are you on the baron's side, lady?

[Alice]

Thought you were on my side.

[Brett]

And these barons in particular were some of the ones who had been in France leading the fight against the King's enemies. And then the King came down there and messed everything up and they never got past it. And things are getting worse and Wales is revolting. You know, the Scots are always causing problems, so they got a lot of issues on their hands. Henry sees this coming. He knows this revolt is going to turn into a war. That happens in April, in March, March 12, 1264, Henry issues a declaration. And this is how this is described in an article in the Bodleian Library. Henry III suspended the university and sent it away from Oxford. That this is disputed about whether he did this exactly this way or not. But anyways, we'll read you what it says. Henry suspended the university and sent it away from Oxford, saying that he could not protect its masters and scholars in the city and that they would be safer elsewhere. The King was making Oxford the center of his military operations and was unable to guarantee the safety of the students and masters. So the way this is put in this particular description of what happened is this is Henry sending the scholars away to protect them because the civil war he thinks is going to be decided in and around Oxford. So that apparently happens on March 12th. As you'll see by what I'm about to read to you, you wonder whether Henry sent them away or whether they went away of their own accord. 13 days later on March 25, 1264. This is 22 years after the murder, by the way. The king pardons Henry Simeonis. Why would he do this now? Not hard to figure out. He's about to get into a big war. He has all these rebellious barons. Henry's rich. He needs the support. He orders the university to allow him to return to Oxford and live there in peace so long as he has, quote, unquote, good behavior. So the letter to Oxford said the following. It asked that the chancellor and university would be content that Henry, son of Henry Simeonis, who withdrew for the death of a man, would return to Oxford and stay there so that the university should not retire from said town on account of his staying there. Keep reading here a second. But this is interesting. So remember, the way it's put in. The one thing is, oh, he ordered them to leave to protect them, but here he's saying, hey, I'm gonna pardon Simeonis. Don't leave just because I'm doing it. And there was this real threat. There was another university nearby, and there was a threat that Oxford might leave and that maybe Oxford's gonna throw its support behind the rebels. And why is that important? Because everyone is Catholic at the time, and the Pope makes a lot of decisions. So having the ecclesiastical arm against the king at a time of rebellion is not good. So on the one hand, Henry has to satisfy Simeonis because he needs his money, but he's got to keep Oxford happy because he needs their support. That's essentially what's going on here. And the wording of this confirms that, because. And this is like so many things in history, you know, there's nothing that's going to explicitly say some of the things I'm telling you right now, but you have to read them in the context of the time, and you see that. So the king, all powerful, is pardoning Henry. He's made a decision. He could just write a letter. That's like Oxford. Live with it. And if you don't live with it, I'll execute all of you and I'll put somebody else in charge. Like, he could say that. He doesn't do that. He goes on to say, then they should permit him to return without impediment and have the king's peace. The king, at the insistence of Nicholas de Ytington of his further grace, has pardoned the said Henry thy said death, on condition that he stand his trial, if any will proceed against him, and has granted that he may return and dwell there so long as he be of good behavior. And that the university do not withdraw from the said town on account of his return and the death of the said Henry. So maybe the guy killed was named Henry too, Apparently, I don't know. But anyways. So it's this very sort of gentle letter explaining what he's doing and asking very nicely that the university accept this and not withdraw from Oxford.

[Alice]

So the demand that the university not withdraw out of protest seems to conflict with his earlier letter asking them to leave Oxford for their own safety. Presumably, he was thinking about the future. Now, although it's never been officially confirmed, it's not hard to understand what happened here. Like Brett said the King, he needs money and he needs friends. He was happy to be bought by Henry Simeonis. Oxford, however, was not so quick to follow the King's lead. Oxford leaders debated what to do next because of this letter. But the war would give them the perfect out. So, May 14th of 1264, King Henry loses the Battle of Lewes. The next day, he was captured by rebel forces and he was forced to abide by the ironically named provisions of Oxford, which left him as little more than a figurehead. Meanwhile, Oxford University made it official. Not only would they not forgive Henry Simeonis, then they would never do so. And they made every student vow to do the same.

[Brett]

So this was Oxford's big out. Kings asked him to do this and the King gets captured. King doesn't have any power. So no is our answer. And not only no, but no one

[Alice]

will ever, a million times ever, make

[Brett]

peace with Henry Simeonis. That is what they decide to do now, Henry Simeonis, he disappears from the historical record at this point. There may be other records buried somewhere in the depths of some archive, but this is all the gentleman at Oxford was able to find. Pretty good idea of what happened, though we don't really know what happened to him or whether he attempted to stay at Oxford. He probably wouldn't be remembered at all, save for the ultimate irony that Oxford, in its hatred for him, rendered his name immortal, which I think is just a beautiful historical irony to wrap up this part of the story. As for King Henry iii, a year after he was captured, his son Edward freed him from prison. Subsequent battles and papal intervention eventually restored Henry to a modicum of power and ended the civil war. And he would end up reigning for 56 years, which was the longest reign until King George III, which is coming up on July 4th. Appropriate to mention King George III, his son succeeded him, and any power that Henry lost, his son recovered, because you have definitely heard of his son King Edward the First, the Longshanks, Hammer of the Scots. But that is a different story. So that's the story of Henry Simeonis. But it's not the end of Oxford because we also thought we would share a few of the other strange Oxford traditions, because if you're around for 800 years, you're going to accumulate some other than just the oath.

[Alice]

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[Brett]

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[Alice]

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[Brett]

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[Alice]

And I do love this because one of the great things about going to really babies of schools, but the oldest institutions in the United States are these strange traditions that I abided by them. They were like columns you couldn't walk through or you'd fail your next test and you know certain paths you couldn't take. Even if it was the most direct path to a certain hall that everyone had a class in. You know these things and everyone abided by them and everyone did them. But no one had any idea the genesis of that particular tradition and what would happen if you broke it. Right? That is one of my favorite parts about these old institutions. So let's talk about Oxford Time. One of their strange traditions is that all university lectures, exams and church services are always scheduled for five minutes past the hour. This is Oxford time. And this is because before the advent of railways, the UK towns operated on their own slightly differing times. So Oxford local times was 5 minutes and 2 seconds behind Greenwich Mean Time. Though Oxford was eventually forced to make its time consistent with everybody else's, they didn't get to be five minutes and two seconds later than everybody else. This additional five minutes that everything is scheduled for is A nod to the past. And so I guess when Brett throws his little fit about the Lord's time, Oxford's like, no, no, this is the Lord's time. Five minutes and two seconds past what the rest of the world goes on.

[Brett]

So in addition to Oxford time, they also have formal hall. Every week a formal three course meal is hosted where students are required to wear formal Oxford attire. We could spend the whole time talking about formal Oxford attire and you can go to their website to address. But just to give you an idea of what this means, formal Oxford attire is full academic dress. So it has to be very dark. Sub fusque is the Latin term they use for it. Dark suit with black socks, dark skirt with black tights, dark trousers, a dark jacket, plain black shoes, a plain white collared shirt, a white bow tie, a black bow tie or a black full length tie or black ribbon if you're into the ribbon. You can wear a black ribbon as well as the appropriate academic gown and a mortarboard. So very formal. It's like something out of Hogwarts or something.

[Alice]

What's a mortarboard?

[Brett]

It's the graduation camp.

[Alice]

You have to wear that for dinner. How do you eat? Well, you would like bend down for your soup and the mortarboard would get you flat ball out of your house.

[Brett]

You got to be careful with your mortarboard. Maybe you need extra ones in case you get one in the soup. So also now this is one that I had heard of and I think this one is probably one of the most famous one. No walking on the grass. So this is not a formal rule, but it's unspoken and it's one that all students. There is a dispensation for full professors. All students obey no matter what. No one walks on the grass at Oxford. It doesn't matter how much time it adds to your route, doesn't matter if you're late for class, doesn't matter why you want to do it. No one walks on the grass. And this is, I mean, supposedly to help maintain the perfect lawn. But I think it's just a rule. No one walks on the grass.

[Alice]

Just a rule at Oxford. I bet it was some sort of hazing. Some, like upperclassmen told some lower classman, you know, that they weren't allowed to walk on the grass. And over time it became a tradition, something like that. That's not the only thing. So there's something called hustings, debates. Now these are pretty hilarious and frankly I think this is where most people would like debates to go anyway. So at Oxford you Have your typical debates between candidates for school office. Right. We have even have them in the American schools where you debate about policies and why you're the better candidate for that office. But Hustings is Oxford's version of these types of debates for school office. But these debates, they're not really politically correct. At Hustings, it's customary to not only ask questions about policy, as expected, but also intimate details about the candidates personal lives. The stuff that everyone really wants to know, to be honest.

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Yes.

[Brett]

Yes. Do you wear your mortarboard while asking the question?

[Alice]

Only if it hides your deep dark secrets.

[Brett]

Exactly. And your deep dark clothes.

[Alice]

And your deep dark clothes. Okay. Then there's the All Souls College, which has a special little diddly, shall we say. So All Souls College has a strange tradition in and of itself. The university's most mysterious college. It stopped accepting undergraduates in the 19th century and only admits a few new grad students each year. So addition to that, I don't know how you like continue. But there are only a dozen students attending the college at any one time due to its prestigious reputation and rigorous selection criteria. So the All Souls entrance exam is famous for its difficulty because very few shall enter. The most infamous section of this All Souls entrance exam is the one word essay. So students are given an index card with a single vague word, something like water, justice, power, etc, and they're asked to write a lengthy essay on it. Luckily for All Souls hopefuls, this portion of the exam was dropped in 2010.

[Brett]

Yeah, they shouldn't have got rid of it. They should have kept it. Just like the oath.

[Alice]

They really. I think it's actually brilliant.

[Brett]

Yeah. So they survive. They have the largest endowment of any college. The people who go there, they knew who to pick.

[Alice]

Yeah, exactly.

[Brett]

The test is really hard. But it's kind of funny that the people who end up already have tons of money just happen to be the ones who get admitted and then give money back to the school.

[Alice]

So Yale has something similar to that. It's called the 250. It's the 250. It's. I mean, I'm sure other schools have this as well, but we're like, it's like infamous. The 250, which is kind of like the one word where you have 250 words to. And the prompt is simply 250 words to tell us why you deserve to be here over anybody else in the world.

[Brett]

Harvard Law.

[Alice]

Yeah, so something. But I think this is all coming from all sorts.

[Brett]

I'm convinced that's why I Got in

[Alice]

because you probably had a great one.

[Brett]

Very good. Very good, right? Was it the one thing I have in my favor?

[Alice]

You are fantastic writer and you also have stories from Jasper.

[Brett]

Exactly. And I tied all that in. I mean, I was like, I was playing the harp, you know, the violin, whatever it is, I was like, it's beautiful. So in apparent contrast to the college's erudite image, one of its oldest traditions is the Mallard song. So sung only once per century. The Mallard song, how.

[Alice]

How do you remember it when everybody dies off for the next singing?

[Brett]

The Mallard Song accompanies a procession of professors all marching around the college carrying flaming torches. A person dressed as Lord Mallard is carried in a chair led by someone holding a wooden duck that is tied to a pole. The once a century ceremony dates back to the building of All Souls, when legend says a mallard flew away from the college's foundation. If you're wanting to see this happen, the ceremony last occurred in 2001, so it won't be happening again until 2101. So good luck.

[Alice]

How do you tell someone in 100 years to do something? You know, it's not like I can do a Google calendar and be like, in 100 years, make sure to remember to do the Mallard song. And here's how you shall do it.

[Brett]

How do you get to be Lord Mallard? That's got to be quite an honor.

[Alice]

I bet Lord Mallard gets to walk

[Brett]

up the Lord Mallard, he write. He strokes quite a check. When he's like, he strikes.

[Alice]

Quite the check.

[Brett]

You want a new building, Lord Mallard? Right now, I'm just Mr. Mallard. I want to be Lord Mallet and do that for so. So we wanted to do something a little different. The last few weeks been very heavy, very child murder centric. It seems like recently on legal briefs and the prosecutors. So I want to do something a little different. Hope you guys enjoyed this little historical jaunt. It has a murder in it, has a pardon. I mean, very true crime, you know. So hope you enjoyed it. If you want us to do more stories like this, let us know. Let us know. Stories like this. I have no idea where this story came from. I honestly do not remember why we did this. I don't remember who told me about this. I don't remember anything about it. So I have no idea. So if you out there, the person who said we should do this. Thank you for your suggestion. It was just on the list. I was like, who's Henry Semionis? And then Boom. All this stuff's there. It's like, oh, okay. Definitely should do this one. So here we are. I hope you guys enjoyed it. All right, Alice, do you want to answer a question?

[Alice]

Let's do it. What a fun day episode.

[Brett]

Let's see if I can find one about child murder. Okay, here's a great one. This is from Katie Loves true crime. By the time you hear this, It'll be after 4th of July, but we're sort of doing our whole America 250 celebration all year, right? So this question goes well with that. Katie loves true crime, wants to know what is the best place you've traveled to in the United States?

[Alice]

Oh, in the United States. You've been traveling all over the place. I bet you have some good ones.

[Brett]

There are a lot of good places.

[Alice]

Alaska is phenomenal. I mean, truly, I think getting all emotional, it's about to be America 250. But, like, sea to shining sea, there's like, something incredible in every single state. And it's so diverse and amazing. I told you guys in an earlier episode, we've been reading through all of the Little House on the Prairie series. And, like, that covers a lot of areas that I've never lived in. But I've been to Alaska several times now. I think that's obvious. I mean, it is truly stunning. It feels like you're on the edge of the earth and you are visiting nature, not the other way around. It is their world and you're simply privileged to be. Be in it. And you do that when you're, like, driving and a moose just stops in front of you and you can't do anything but wait until they pass by. Wyoming is similar. I mean, in the sense that I went to Wyoming, where I had no cell service and spent a week, like, riding horses and fly fishing. And it was, again, otherworldly, where you realize, like, the smallness of you and the largeness of the world is stunning. But I truly think, like, sea to shining sea, there is something tremendous in every state.

[Brett]

There are a lot of places I still want to go that I think I'm going to love. Alaska is one of them. The Northwest, Montana, places like that. Because I. I love natural beauty. It's one of the reasons I love the West. I mean, I do love the West. If the west weren't so far away, I would consider living there. I love Colorado. You know, we drove out to the salt Flats together. Just. Just incredible. Just drive. Then you get there, and it's just this amazing thing that's just out in the middle of the. The desert. You know, California is incredible. Everything about California is beautiful. I was recently in Maine. I'd been to Maine. I'd been skiing in Maine, but I'd never been up to Acadia. So my wife and I and the kids went to Acadia. And so my wife had. She had to go to this meeting. So it was me and the kids. Acadia is beautiful. If you haven't been up there, like Bar Harbor. Kids love bajaba. I talked about this. Bajaba. So we're driving through Acadia, and me and the kids, they want to go hiking. Now. They're six and four, right? Six and five now and. But, you know, literally just turned five, so. So we're driving around. I'm trying to find, like, a nice, easy hike. I find one. And we could not find parking. The thing about Acadia is it's just this wilderness, and so there's only, like, a few places to park. So really, I think what you're supposed to do is park at this visitor center and take a bus. But was too late for us to do that. So we drove around for a while. We couldn't find parking. So I'm like, we're just going to find somewhere out in the middle of nowhere. We're going to hike. So we found this mountain. See if I can remember the name of it, because we wanted to hike up a mountain. And I'm just looking if the. Basically, at this place, at this point, if it had parking, we were going to do it. So we found this place called Norumbega, which is in Acadia, and it was described as a steep hike, but I was like, that's fine. And it was three and a half miles. And I was like, that's fine. We'll just go halfway up and turn around and come back. So we park, we get out. I got my backpack. I got some water in a backpack. Don't have a map, don't have, like, a compass. Don't have any of the things one might need to survive in the wilderness. And we start hiking up this mountain. When we get about halfway up there, it starts with the goat trail. And the goat trail is well named. We get about halfway up the goat trail, and I turn around and look down, and I'm like, we can't go back down that way. Like, you can't. We need, like, ropes to go down the go. You can scramble up it, but going down, can't go down it. So it's like we're committed at this point. We're doing the whole hike. So young children. And I'm telling my daughter, I'm like, okay, if anything happens to Daddy, my cell phone's in my back pocket. You can call 91 1. I've already texted your mother to let her know where we are. And she's like, I got it, Daddy. I got it. I was like, good. So we hike all the way to the top, take a bunch of pictures, and then we start the way down. And it's very well marked the way up and the way down. But then when you get to the bottom, you're thinking, okay, we're to the bottom, we're good. But you're in the bottom in, like, the middle of this forest, and all of a sudden, nothing is well marked. And there's just trails going all over the place. And so we get lost twice. Twice. We have to backtrack to get back to where we were. At one point, we go off the trail and hike across, just through the forest. Because I'm like, there's a trail over there. We want to get to that trail. Back to the forest, to the trail. When we got back to the car, it was like the most beautiful thing. We just run out of water, you know, I was so happy. And I just. We got in the car, we drove back to our room. I collapsed on the floor. And the kids are like, let's go swimming. Because they have.

[Alice]

You're like, we almost just died for four hours.

[Brett]

We hiked for four hours, me and two children. And they were great. They, like, never complained or anything.

[Alice]

They were troopers, so that is terrifying. I can't believe your kids are troopers. That's incredible. With especially running out of water, no snacks. Like, man. So Mr. Alice and I. What is it called? I'm forgetting the term, but we were in Denali park in Alaska, and you can go off what? I think it's called shimming. It's where you don't follow a path, right? Like, literally, you can just scurry up mountainsides. And so he was like, we just heard about this from the ranger. Let's do this. We don't have gear. We don't have hooks. We don't have ropes. We don't even hike that much. We're not that athletic. We're lawyers. And he's like, let's shimmy up this mountain face, which is all just loose rock. Like, literally just shards of rock. And so you take one step and, like, an avalanche of rocks falls below you. So, yeah, we can do this. So we're about, like, I don't know, 30ft up in the air. And all of a sudden, because you're higher up, there's no branches or anything. It's just. It literally is just a rock face. And his legs. He's like 6:3. So his leg span is a lot bigger than mine. I may be a dancer, but it doesn't matter if I do the full splits, my legs are not going to be 6:3. So there's this one part where it's like, just avalanche. And I'm below him, so I'm catching all the rocks in my face. And he, like, makes this impossible grab, barely at 6:3, and grabs this, like, one little root. Like, that's like my pinky. And he grabs the root and he's able to plaster himself against the side. He's like, okay, give me your hand. There's no world where I can reach him. Like, I am. It doesn't matter if I jump. Like, I cannot cover the span. And so I do my best. I propel off. No, nothing. Basically vertical at this point, 50ft in the air. And it's just jagged rocks below us. And I propel myself off. Nothing. Immediately, rocks start going down, like, just like you're losing your footing below you. And I just start sliding down the rock face. And my entire body's, like, clutching onto these rocks falling down the side of the mountain in Denali, there, nobody around, probably a bear at the bottom. And I fall for probably 25ft against. And I had. I said, like, shards of cuts, but I somehow stopped. Like, friction stopped me. All to say is if we had a kid with us, there's no way anyone would have lived. But yours is such a happier ending. We made it, by the way. I lived. I did a podcast about it. Six years later. We're all good. We have lived. That was actually about. That was like, six years ago. No, it was like eight years ago. Anyways, the kids are such. Hearing your story brought back a lot of trauma for me.

[Brett]

I mean, they really were. They were such troopers.

[Alice]

I was like, I cannot believe they did that. That's. My whole point is I almost died on that. That's no joke. Anyways, I still love him. He's. I'm still married to him. He may have tried to kill me. That could have been the perfect crime. She fell down the side of the rock face. But you're reminding me that maybe I should teach my children how to call 911 from the cell phone attached to my dead body.

[Brett]

Yeah, I was just like, you know, if anything happens and Daddy can't respond. You just, you know, that's so dark. I said in a very cheerful way, of course. Once we got, once we got about halfway up, I was like, this is not smart. Daddy's gonna go to jail if anything happens to y'.

[Juliette Cowley]

All.

[Brett]

I didn't say that to him. But you know, that's sort of what I was thinking when it was happening. But they had a great time. They loved it. It just awesome.

[Alice]

Oh my gosh.

[Brett]

Yeah. So.

[Alice]

Well, that was fun. Thanks for that.

[Brett]

Absolutely. Great question. If you leave a five star review, we will answer a question for you just like we did for Katie. Loves true crime. Hope Katie still listen to the podcast guys. Hope you enjoyed this. Like we said, if you have other thoughts, other cases, other interesting historical tidbits, shoot us an email prosecutors pod gmail.com@ ProsecutorsPod for all your social media. Join us on the gallery. Our fan created, fan run, Facebook post page thing, whatever you call it, it's a page, it's a group. I don't know, join it. They'll have a lot of fun there. So we're continuing to expand our ways you can enjoy these things. We have our Patreon which you can watch us record these live. You also can get episodes early and ad free. If you don't like Patreon. We now have two different ways that you can access these episodes. You can get episodes early and ad free on Apple subscriptions. You can subscribe through Apple. You'll get the edited version of the podcast the same time it goes out on Patreon or if you like watching the videos if you're into that. We're now started posting these videos on our sub stack. So really it's and it's not one of those, you should stop Patreon and join Apple. We're just trying to give you many different ways depending on what you like and what your interests are to access the this various stuff. Or if you just want to hear the podcast and you don't want to pay anything for it, everything we do will always be free. You can hear every single one of these episodes with ads when they come out with everybody else. But if you do want to take advantage of these options, we now have three different ways you can do it. Well, Alice, is there anything else you want to say before we sign off for today?

[Alice]

Write in and let us know like whether it's an institution like a school or something else, weird traditions of like places that you have visited or been a part of. And the best thing about these is Especially if you grew up in it. You may not realize until much later in life that it was a strange tradition. And they're so fun. So write to us, especially from all over the world. I want to hear about these strange traditions because I have a feeling it may lead to another episode, maybe about your tradition.

[Brett]

All right, guys. Well, this has been fun. And we'll be back next week with a new case. It'll probably be a little bit more traditionally true crime than this one. For better or worse. I hope you enjoyed this one. And we'll see you next week. But until then, I'm Brett.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Brett]

And we are the prosecutors.

[Alice]

It's got yours going live. Going live. That's a fun one.

[Brett]

Finger guns.

[Alice]

It does.

[Brett]

Exactly. If we were a shooting show, we'd end like one of us shooting a gun.

[Alice]

I mean, there are, like, fireworks in the. You know, up here. Pew, pew, pew. Okay. Anyways, sorry to be late. Okay. One of my favorite things. I don't know if this happens to you, too. What? One of my favorite products. This is. They. They do not. This is not an advertisement. They don't advertise with us. Magic erasers. If you have children or just dirty hands in your. Magic eraser. So I. I got carried away because I was running around the house just. You know how you're like, I'm just gonna clean up this little place? And then I was like, it's magic. It's all gone. And I keep going. And by the time I, like, look at the clock, I've, like, done the whole house because it's so satisfying to rub away all the grime on my walls. Does that happen to you? Anyways, my hands smell like chemicals now, but, boy, did it work. Sam.

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[Brett]

Fantastic.

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[Juliette Cowley]

Shut up.

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[Brett]

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[Alice]

That is so effective on Pluto TV.

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