378. The Lindsay Clancy Trial Part 6

Summary

The Prosecutors – Ep. 378: The Lindsay Clancy Trial Part 6 (Aug 10, 2026)

Episode Overview

Hosts Brett and Alice, both prosecutors, continue their in-depth coverage of the Lindsay Clancy trial, focusing on her mental health history and the complex interplay between her psychiatric treatment and the events leading to the deaths of her three children. In this crucial sixth installment, the hosts recap and analyze two pivotal days of testimony, featuring friends, family, childcare providers, and, for the first time, the psychiatric professionals directly involved in Lindsay Clancy’s care. They probe the evolving narrative around claims of psychiatric failure, over-medication, and Lindsay’s state of mind leading up to the tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotional Testimony & Medical Evidence (Day 8)

• [03:05] Dr. Kimberly Springer – Medical Examiner

  • Conducted Callan Clancy's autopsy, detailing traumatic findings consistent with asphyxia and highlighting the emotional reaction in the courtroom, particularly Lindsay’s breakdown.
  • Quote: "As this begins, Lindsay Clancy is already sobbing. This is the first time you can hear her." – Brett [04:01]

• [05:10] Dr. Lindsay Rosher – Pediatrician

  • Saw Clancy family regularly; confirmed Callan was developing normally, contradicting Lindsay’s notes and complaints.
  • Core insight: Lindsay over-reported or misrepresented her children's issues to both medical professionals and her support circle.

• [10:16] Defense Cross-Examinations

  • Defense repeatedly tried putting third-party knowledge into the record via witnesses not privy to Lindsay's personal struggles, a tactic both hosts found excessive and possibly detrimental.

2. Friends, Daycare, & Family Testimony

• [11:06] Daycare Staff

  • Testimonies from Learning Sprouts teachers described both Lindsay and her children as engaged, normal, and exhibiting no signs of parental or child distress.

• [12:22] Prosecution’s Challenge

  • Brett notes the risk for prosecution: So much praise for Lindsay as a mother could support the defense’s psychosis narrative – if she was so normal, a break from reality seems more plausible.

• [18:43] Friends & Behavioral Analysts

  • Consistently, friends and professionals described Lindsay’s problems as centered on sleep disturbance rather than overt signs of depression or psychosis.
  • Notable: None reported suicidal or homicidal ideations, nor did Lindsay vocalize intentions to harm herself or her children.

• [24:20] Family Ties

  • Patrick's father (Christopher Clancy) emphasizes Lindsay’s closeness with her in-laws and their supportive family structure, occasionally struggling with guilt over what if scenarios.

• [28:51] State Police Investigation

  • Sgt. Andrew Chacho’s surveillance review conclusively confirmed Patrick Clancy’s movements, ruling out alternative perpetrator theories.

3. Psychiatric & Medical Testimony (Day 9)

Transition: By Day 9, the trial shifts decisively toward Lindsay's mental health records and direct testimony from her treatment providers.

• [42:57] Dr. Aaliyah Goodhart – McLean Hospital Psychiatrist

  • Outlined Lindsay's voluntary five-day inpatient stay, symptom profile (focused on sleep/numbness, NOT psychosis), and step-wise medication plan.

  • Quote: “Her chief complaint was always sleep. Now, missing as much sleep as she was can really mess with your mind. But that really is the main thing for Lindsay – she just could not sleep.” – Brett [45:56]

  • Lindsay was assessed as low risk, with major depressive disorder (severe, without psychotic features).

  • Discharge planning required Lindsay to demonstrate functionality (schedule a follow-up, which she did), interpreted as future orientation and evidence she wasn’t suicidal/homicidal at the time.

• [64:02] Defense’s Line of Attack

  • Criticized the hospital’s lack of psychological testing and explored whether Lindsay’s voluntary (vs. involuntary) admission suggested she was seeking help and not getting adequate support.

• [68:19] Diagnoses, Documentation, and Disclosure

  • Dr. Goodhart and subsequent psychiatrists confirmed that Lindsay did not present textbook symptoms of psychosis or bipolar disorder, and self-reports guided treatment. The patient's refusal to take (or hesitation around) medication heavily influenced care decisions.

• [73:47] Dr. Jennifer Tufts – Psychiatrist

  • Worked closely with Lindsay pre-incident. Multiple appointments reflected methodical, patient-driven attempts to address Lindsay’s anxiety/depression.

  • Continual negative findings for psychosis, mania, or overt suicidal ideation. Lindsay's reluctance or refusal to take prescribed medication (except for Ativan) stymied some treatment efforts.

  • Quote: "You can see that Dr. Tufts, in a lot of ways, is constrained... Lindsay's refusing to take [medications], so there's not much she can do." – Alice [98:43]

  • Multiple screens and checklist assessments were negative for hallucinations or violent thoughts; concern consistently centered on insomnia and the emotional numbing effect of medication.

  • Psychiatric approach showed high responsiveness to patient input; providers adapted plans according to Lindsay’s self-reports and feedback.

4. Key Themes & Analytical Commentary

• No "Smoking Gun" for Malpractice

  • Both prosecutors express growing skepticism about claims of healthcare system failure: Treatment was thorough, responsive, and documented, though ultimately not successful in preventing tragedy.
  • Quote: "If anybody got [appropriate psychiatric care], Lindsay did. I mean, it's hard for me to think... Lindsay fell through the cracks somehow." – Brett [108:41]

• Complexity of Self-Reported Symptoms

  • Alice and Brett discuss the inherent limitations of psychiatric diagnosis relying heavily on patient honesty and insight – and the evident gap between Lindsay’s inner reality and what was observable to her care team.

• Dependence on Ativan

  • Recurring focus on Lindsay’s attachment to Ativan, her anxiety upon withdrawal, and implications for her mental state leading up to the murders.

• Prosecution vs. Defense Narrative

  • Both sides increasingly locked into frameworks that don’t fully explain the dissonance between observed (outwardly normal, loving mother) and the eventual outcome (child killings).
  • Key legal question remains: Was this “psychosis” that no one observed, or something else entirely?

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Systemic Healthcare Claims:

  • “I am now no longer thinking this is an example of someone who was failed by medicine and that's why this happened. I just, I don't see that in how she was treated and the treatment she got.” – Brett [109:09]

• On Lindsay’s Self-Presentation:

  • "When she talks to doctors... she's really not truthful with them, and she misleads them in strange ways..." – Brett [05:58]

• Legal Strategy:

  • "These witnesses, they don't tell us much. These could be defense witnesses too, to be honest. We don't get a bunch of information except to really see the human element..." – Alice [16:02]

• Danger of Overuse of the 'Great Mom' Testimony:

  • "The prosecution cannot let any jurors think 'there's no way a good mom like this would kill her kids.' So even though I understand the purpose of this testimony, I think the downside, I would have limited it." – Brett [12:22]

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment Description | |------|---------------------| | 03:05–05:10 | Medical examiner testimony/autopsy details | | 05:10–10:16 | Pediatrician and family pediatric care recap | | 11:06–12:22 | Daycare witnesses on Clancy family normalcy | | 18:43–20:49 | Friends’ testimony; psychiatric background begins | | 24:20–28:21 | In-law testimony and family support | | 28:51–30:19 | State Police surveillance verification | | 42:57–46:43 | Start Psychiatric testimony (McLean Hospital) | | 64:02–68:19 | Defense critique/cross of psychiatric care | | 73:47–111:22 | Dr. Tufts: Psychiatric timeline and care details | | 109:09–111:22 | Host wrap-up: legal/medical impressions |

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• The detailed medical history and testimony thus far counter the narrative that systemic neglect or incompetence led to the tragedy; Lindsay Clancy received comprehensive and attentive care, albeit with a heavy reliance on her own self-reporting.
• The prosecution's emphasis on consistent testimony describing Lindsay as "normal" and a loving mother could backfire, bolstering the defense's case for postpartum psychosis – even if not one professional observed clear symptoms.
• Medication management (with Ativan dependence), patient reluctance, and the complexity of psychiatric diagnosis (especially postpartum disorders) are central to understanding both the trial strategy and the human tragedy.
• As the case moves forward, attention turns to whether cross-examination or new expert testimony will finally produce the “bombshell” defenses have implied – or whether the careful, stepwise approach of Clancy’s psychiatric team will hold up under scrutiny.

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Next Up: More cross-examination and the much-anticipated testimony of therapist Jennifer McAllister, plus deeper dives into South Shore’s treatment records. The search for clarity about Lindsay Clancy’s true mental state continues.

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For more episode recaps and resources, visit The Prosecutors’ website or their True Crime Times Substack.

Transcript

[Brett]

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[Alice]

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[Brett]

48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A E and crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series the first 48.

[Alice]

I'm Carter Roy.

[Brett]

Every Thursday I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow the First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm brett. And I'm alice and we are the prosecut. Today on the Prosecutors. We continue with the Lindsay Clancy trial and begin to hear about her mental health history. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my Finally Getting Somewhere co host, Alice.

[Alice]

We are finally getting somewhere on day basically nine. Basically day nine of trial, which most trials don't even reach. Day nine. Of course, this is a six week trial, so we've been told. But I've been waiting for this bre. But Friday of the second week of trial, we are finally getting somewhere with the Lindsay Clancy trial. And if you haven't listened to the pre coverage of this, maybe you want to do that first.

[Brett]

Yeah. You know, I'll say this, this was an interesting couple days. The first day we're going to talk about, not a lot happened and I had a lot of questions about what was going on. And then it reminds me, I'm always siding back to the Great Gatsby, but there's this part in the Great Gatsby where Nick sort of lost faith. Gatsby. But then Gatsby does something and he talks about how his faith in him was fully restored. It's a similar thing. I'm not gonna say it's fully restored, but you know, I feel like, and I don't spend too much time on this because we got a lot to talk about, but I feel like the prosecution's been kind of grasping around trying to find what they're doing in this case. But this last day that we're gonna talk about towards the mid part of this episode was when it finally seemed like, okay, starting to see some things come together and really interesting testimony and going to be really interesting cross examination on Monday on one witness that we stopped after their direct examination. So we don't want to spend a lot of time talking because we got a lot to talk about. So let's just dive straight into day eight of this trial. And we start with Dr. Kimberly Springer. She is in the office of the chief medical examiner. Been an ME for 20 years. Done 2000 autopsies. And I know I said, I'm not going to extemporate much, but I'm just. These medical examiners, they spend so much time, you know, in medical school and everything. Just the dedication it must take to do all that and then be a public servant. It just blows my mind. And this, this is an example of one of those people. She did the autopsy on Callan clancy. He was 26 inches long, 24 pounds. Lots of different medical efforts to save him were noted in the autopsy. As this begins, Lindsay Clancy is already sobbing. This is the first time you can hear her, by the way. You start to hear her over the microphone in the courtroom. He talks about how he has excess fluid and swelling, which is to be expected. They show the autopsy photos. He has abrasions on the neck from strangulation, abrasions on the forehead, and particular hemorrhages on his face. And cause of death, complications of mechanical asphyxia. Now, at this point, Lindsay is totally broken down. I don't know if this was the plan at the time to only do Callan's autopsy, but basically we take a break, Lindsay leaves, and it lasts for a good while. The break does. Everybody can compose themselves. And when we come back, we have a different witness talking about a completely different thing.

[Alice]

So the next witness is Dr. Lindsay Rosher, who's a South Shore Medical center pediatrician. You guys may remember from the timeline the day of the murders. That morning, Lindsay Clancy took Cora to go to the pediatrician. So she's the Clancy family pediatrician. She noted that there was nothing out of the ordinary with Callan. Callan had met his milestones. Remember? This actually conflicts with what Lindsay wrote in her notebook where she said he was not meeting his milestones and it was causing her stress. And she is the pediatrician. You know, she has her notes and she remembers as well. She says, no, he met his milestones just fine. And she also does not recall any problem with Callan refusing or not taking a Bottle, which was another issue for you. Remember that Lindsay claimed was a stressor in her life. Apparently, that's not true, according to the pediatrician.

[Brett]

And let me just say this comes up multiple times where she raises this issue with him not taking a bottle. And it's funny because she said that to the nanny. You know, at the time, I didn't really understand, why are we watching a video of him drinking a bottle, other than just to make us all emotional. And I think the reason was just to point out the nanny thought, oh, this is a big deal. I should send her a video of him taking the bottle. He's taking it so well. It seems like he probably didn't actually have a problem with the bottle. But nevertheless, one thing we're learning about Lindsay is when she talks to doctors. And we're going to see this a lot as we go forward. When she talks to doctors. I've admitted to this as well. But when she talks to doctors, she's really not truthful with them, and she misleads them in strange ways, almost and not quite. And I don't want anyone to claim I said this is like a Munchausen by proxy situation, because I don't think it is. But some of the things she tells the doctors, she's overstating the things that are going on at home. Like, it doesn't seem like he did have a problem with the bottle. He was meeting his milestones. There weren't these big issues necessarily with him, even though she talks about that. And of course, there's the famous Facebook post about her second child where she says he's the most difficult human she ever knew. So just a little thing I noticed in this testimony.

[Alice]

So I wanted to extrapolate on that because I think we get a little inkling of it. I'm going to forget it's going to come up in our notes later. But something she writes later on is that she says, things are so bad in my mind, am I making this to basically physicalize what I feel in here? So trying to in the best light possible, as opposed to lying or Munchausen by proxy. I wonder if she's like, there's nothing wrong with Cowan. He's a happy baby. The nanny said, this is the sweetest, happiest baby I've ever met. He does everything. He meets his milestones. Like, all we care about right, is a baby who eats, sleeps, and meets their milestones. And if he's doing all those things, why does she feel so bad? And in some ways, trying to grasp at or make a non issue or a very small issue, a bigger issue might validate how she's feeling inside. So I think that's a very charitable interpretation is rather than she's lying about Callan, she kind of notes it a little bit later, like, if I feel so bad inside, why don't I feel it out here? So maybe I need to externalize it to make it real so that I'm not the crazy one. I don't know. But I do think this is very interesting. I think the picture we're getting so far is Callin's a perfectly healthy on the bell curve, right in the middle of the bell curve kind of baby. No more stress or less stress, by the way, than a typical newborn or eight month old, which is to say a lot of work. So this doctor continues to go on that she is trained, you know, she's supposed to look for any sort of struggles, but she's not specially trained in treating, say, postpartum diagnoses. But she herself never saw any visible signs of mental health issues with Lindsay that might lead her to refer to Lindsay to others for help. She says that she was the one who saw them on January 24 for Cora's well visit. She said it was a very normal visit. She remembers it. Cora was behaving normally. She said that Lindsay seemed appropriate. You know, she was able to answer all the questions about Cora, what she was going through that day. She didn't notice any sort of flat affect, no obvious mental issues, nothing like not making sense. She seemed like her typical attentive mothering self. And that day Cora came in because she had some stomach aches. And Dr. Rascher is the one who said, well, you know, if there's no obvious issue, let's try this Miralax, the Pedia shower or Pedialyte. I forget what it's called. Basically, maybe constipation. Right? And that's it. That's the pediatrician. On cross examination, she said she's always on the lookout for issues, but she never noticed anything with the Clancy kids. She said that they were happy, they were healthy. And once again, the defense asked her if she knows a bunch of things she would know. Right? And that's just to get facts into the record. She's like, I don't know. I didn't treat them for that. This is all I know. But ultimately what she says is that she always thought Lindsey Clancy was a good mom.

[Brett]

I think at some point the judge needs to limit the defense attorney doing that. He doesn't have to ask every doctor if they knew something they couldn't know just so he can get it back in front of the jury. Jury gets it. They got it. You know, she called the suicide hotline two times. Why would the pediatrician know that? But he's getting in. Whatever. All right, so now we move to the kids daycare. Susan Ferroni, she works at Learning Sprouts. She teaches the 3 year olds to the 4 year olds. And this just reminded me of how many victims there are in this case, because you got to imagine she loved those kids. She taught Dawson. She knew Cora. She had a baby, and she actually went on maternity leave in November after Thanksgiving. Lindsay had asked her how the baby was doing. Lindsay's demeanor was fine, no different than any other time, and she had no concerns about her. She had known Lindsay since 2020, but she saw Patrick more during the relevant period.

[Alice]

So next is Susan Bertolo, and she taught the older kids at Learning Sprouts, the school that the kids went to. She taught the Sunflowers, which included Cora. And she went to the sweet pea room in the afternoo. Susan said that she interacted with Lindsay over the class app and that Lindsay was really responsive on the class app, appropriately so, as you would imagine a attentive parent to be. And she said that Lindsay was usually the main parent who contacted the school on that app. She went on to describe Cora as amazing and wonderful. And she proudly said that Cora was absolutely ready for kindergarten. That Cora came to school on January 23, the day before. And the only thing that was kind of out of the ordinary for Cora that day is she needed to use the bathroom more than she often did. She said that she went several times extra, not just one or two times. And she said that she didn't see any issues ever with Lindsey Clancy. She never saw issues that would concern her with the kids. And overall, she had no indication that there were any problems with the Clancy family. She said when Lindsay was in the hospital, Cora told her, in fact, that she missed her mom several times, indicating a solid good mother daughter relationship.

[Brett]

And I'll say this. I mean, I understand the purpose of this is trying to show that she has no outward issues. I don't know how powerful this testimony is just because, as we're gonna hear from the experts, you can carry on casual conversations with people you see once a day for five minutes, even if you have psychosis. On the other hand, though, we're going to hear over and over and over again how great a mom this was. Like the she's a great mom day for the court. And the one issue with this and the thing that I think the prosecution has to worry about, and we'll see how it goes. But the one problem is this day really does set up people to think there's no way this woman killed her kids if she's not psychotic. And that's a real danger where the defense doesn't have to show anything. It's like the fact of the murder proves the case for them. The prosecution cannot let any jurors think that because it's really hard to get out of that. Then you're in the what was the motive? Why did she do it? All this other stuff. And the more you hammer on how wonderful a mom she is, the more people are going to think there's no way a good mom like this would kill her kids. So even though I understand the purpose of this testimony, I think the downside, I would have limited it. I would not have called all the people who got called on this day, as you're going to see. So then we have Stephanie Williams. She taught the afternoon sweet class with Korra, and she had taught her since she was 3. She said she was a sweet girl who liked to play as a princess, loved her little brother. She bought her a Princess Sophia puzzle for Cora. And this lady almost started crying at this point. It was very sad and just reminded me of how many secondary victims there are in this case. Like we've been saying, when she reiterated that on the 23rd, her stomach was hurting. Lindsay picked her up that day, and when she heard that her stomach was hurting, she said, let's get you home. Let's go get Dawson and go home. So pretty typical. Pretty standard. All right. Then there was Andrea Hennigan, and she is a registered nurse at Mass General. Pretty interesting. She does screening for postpartum depression, and she worked with Lindsay. They socialized together. She saw Lindsay twice after Callan was born and often texted with her. She brought her lunch during the summer. She said that Lindsay was her typical self. November 2022, they met for lunch. Lindsay told her that she was having some trouble with sleep and anxiety. There were several nurses there at this lunch, and they all gave her advice on what to do and who to see and what medication to take. They talked a lot about medication. Lindsay was saying that she was supposed to meet with a new therapist. There was no concern on Andrea's part that Lindsay was gonna harm herself or the children. And they ended up sending names of people Lindsay might see. She also texted with Lindsay Around Thanksgiving, her mother in law, Lindsay's mother in law, had suggested a program about perinatal issues, which she ends up doing as we're going to see later. She also texted her on January 23 that she was thinking of her. Lindsay had said that she wasn't an inpatient program anymore. Talking about the first of the fifth program that she was in. She talked about having issues with side effects from drugs and coming off of them had been very difficult. And once again, she had no concerns that she was going to harm herself or the children. At that time, she said Lindsay's tone was not negative. It seemed hopeful and that things were going to get better. On cross examination, she said that Lindsay always wanted to get better. She wanted to get out of this. And she had known her since right out of nursing school. So for a very long time, Lindsay loved being a nurse. She was excellent at it. She had talked about having a brain fog and was concerned that she would not be able to go back to work because of that. And she described Lindsay as a very loving, caring mother who wanted a big family.

[Alice]

These witnesses, they don't tell us much. These could be defense witnesses too. To be honest, we don't get a bunch of information except to really see the human element of what happens here. So. Next call to the stand is Bethany decolibus. She is a nurse and therapist in private practice. But the reason she's there is that she was friends with Lindsay Clancy. She said that they met when they had these kids and they were new moms together and their kids were involved in similar activities and they were friends and she would see the Clancy's at least weekly. She said that Lindsay was active, she was engaged, she was a friendly person. And throughout, she was friends with her from Cora to Dawson to Callan's birth. And she said that she never saw any changes in Lindsay's behavior after each of these births. She did notice that after Callan was born, Lindsay did appear a little more tired. And Lindsay told Bethany that she had some trouble sleeping. But Bethany also noted it's a newborn too, that would be expected of a mom. Now, for a period of time, it seemed pretty standard tiredness of every mom. But over time, Bethany said, she realized that Lindsay's sleeping problems weren't improving. So she talked to Lindsay about seeking help from doctors for medication. Never, Bethany said, did it appear Lindsay was suicidal. And she never thought that Lindsay had any thoughts about of hurting children either. And she certainly didn't say or verbalize anything about hurting the kids. She went on to Say that Lindsay's physical appearance didn't change, that she could notice, and she never had trouble understanding her talking. She didn't have the flak affect. She didn't change her speech patterns. There was just nothing obvious that stood out to her. Despite knowing her through all these three different births and seeing them at least weekly. Bethany had dinner with Lindsay one night, and she noticed that she was tired, but she didn't look like a zombie. She seemed fine at a party that they both attended the last time that she saw Lindsay. Now, on cross examination, the defense says you're good friends with Lindsey, right? So why didn't you probe about her specific symptoms when she told you that she was struggling with sleep? And Bethany just said, we're friends, but she was telling me what she wanted to tell me, and I didn't want to pry, so I was there for her to tell me what she wanted. She went on to say that it was obvious that Lindsay loved her kids. She was warm, she was kind, she was consistent and loving. And that Lindsay expressed she was having difficulties, but she was not a complainer. And so Bethany did note that was atypical of Lindsey, but that she had expressed all that she was going to tell Bethany. She further said that Lindsey loved her job and she was sad that she might not be able to go back to being a nurse.

[Brett]

And I think one thing you're gonna see, other than Patrick, who said that, you know, Lindsay at one point had sort of in a vague way mentioned having thoughts of harming the children, but it wasn't even necessarily that she was thinking about harming the children. She was more worried that something was going to happen to the children. Very kind of confusing, not cleared up much other than that. I don't know that we're going to see anyone who says that Lindsay ever said she had thoughts of harming the children. And you're going to see this. These witnesses are basically for the prosecution. They're showing no signs of psychosis, no signs that she was going to harm the kids. Basically completely normal up until the time she did it for the defense. They're going to use it to say how wonderful a mom she is. And you can decide for yourself which one of those things is more valuable and for who. The next witness was Amy Bevins. She's a behavioral analyst specializing in early intervention for kids with autism. And she knows Lindsay and in fact, had been friends with her since childhood. They went to elementary school, through high school together and remained friends. They texted, they talked, they would meet on occasion. For breakfast in Connecticut with old friends. And everything seemed normal. And she texted with her. In January, just a few days before the murders, Lindsay shared that she had been taking a medication that caused her to have some dark thoughts. She'd been tapering off and was transitioning to another medication that would be better. She was hopeful. She never mentioned harming herself or anyone else. And in fact, this person, Amy, actually would see Lindsay after the murders. She would go see her. She was in her wheelchair. They talked, but no one mentioned the kids. She didn't bring it up. And in fact, she had been told not to. On cross examination. She says, Lindsay's a great mom. When she did see her, she was in that wheelchair. And the defense attorney's question, just for any of you still wondering where the defense attorney stands on this, said you knew that she had killed her three beautiful children when you met with her. The answer was yes. So just to note, defense attorney knows that she killed her three beautiful children. So those of you waiting for the Matlock moment where he says, ah, it was Patrick all along, that's not gonna happen.

[Alice]

That's a great point.

[Brett]

I didn't even.

[Alice]

Maybe that's the bombshell, guys. That was the bombshell from day eight. The defense attorney said it himself.

[Brett]

There you go. Now, she didn't bring up the murders because Lindsay's sister had told her not to bring it up. They spent about 45 minutes together before the murders. Lindsay had actually asked her about Lexapro, and she had told her she had some difficulties with medication.

[Alice]

You know what stood out to me the most about Amy Bevis testimony, though, was that though Lindsay didn't bring up her own kids, look, giving her all the benefits of the doubt, maybe it'll throw you back into a spiral. We're not going to talk about it, but she asked about Amy's daughter, who was obviously good friends with her kids. That really stood out. It was not a moment that anybody highlighted, but it stopped me in my tracks because it's one thing to completely block off for, like, preservation purposes, to, like, just make it through the day, your own children's deaths that you caused. But to be able to ask about your children, who you murdered's friends, and how they're doing as if nothing had happened was very jarring to me.

[Brett]

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[Alice]

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[Alice]

Next was another family member, Christopher Clancy. So this is Patrick's dad and for background Lindsay was very close to her in laws. They seem to have had a great relationship. So this is not a situation where like the in laws were diametrically opposed to Lindsay from the get go. He said that they spent time with of course Lindsay and Patrick and the kids and she also often observed Lindsay with Callan, their newest grandbaby. He described Lindsay as very mothering, that she was protective like Any mother would be. And that on Thanksgiving, Lindsay came out to the house in order to say hi, just to see the Clancy's. And everything seemed normal. It was a good visit. They saw them then at his daughter's house at Thanksgiving. And while Lindsay seemed a little quieter than her normal self, it wasn't anything that stopped him in his tracks. And he said that Lindsay wore coordinating shirts with her daughters. He also said that he saw Lindsay get a little frustrated with Dawson at this particular dinner. She said Dawson was, you know, a handful. I'm sorry, what three year old boy is not a handful? Was a handful, but a good boy. And that's exactly how he said it. But Dawson was being a little silly and wouldn't get in his seat at dinner. And so Lindsay took him by the arm to get him seated. Seated. He said she didn't hit him or anything like that. She just guided him to the seat. In other words, it seemed like appropriate mothering behavior. Now, at this point, Christopher did step in to help just because he said a lot was going on. He got Lindsay's plate for her so that she could help Dawson and they could all sit down together at dinner. They made plans to go to mass all together as a family for Christmas. And he said that everyone was great at Christmas Mass, which is actually a huge accomplishment for your kids to sit through Mass. Cause my kids certainly don't. He said the kids were great. Everyone had a great time. And after mass, he talked to Lindsay very briefly. And Lindsay said she was glad she came because she really loved the mass. Other than that, she seemed a little bit quiet. Now this was like semantics. They kind of got into it with all the lawyers because you can imagine the amount of guilt probably that Christopher's feeling. The question was asked, weren't you supposed to meet up with or go to Patrick and Lindsay's house on January 24th? And he pushed back on that and said, no, we didn't have plans. They invited us over, but we already had plans to go to my other daughter's house. So we were gonna come on Friday. And the reason I point that out is just little things like that really show you an insight into how difficult this is for so many people. I mean, what if Christopher had shown up that day? Would this not have happened at all? You can imagine all the things of guilt running through his head, but that was something that he kind of fought with with both attorneys, the way they phrased it. So Patrick had actually invited his parents over to their house and they were Busy on the 24th. So they were gonna come to dinner later on that week. And he further went on to say that at times, he and his wife would offer to take the kids to their house just to give Lindsay a little bit of a break. Cause they knew that she was having a bit of a difficult time. And I don't think she really took him up on that. And at times, she seemed a little blank. She would just stare, almost like she was nervous, he said. And then he talked very briefly about the day of the murders, January 24. He said that night, he got a call from Patrick. And when asked what was Patrick's affect was just a terrible phrasing of the word. He was like, you mean the day it happened? He said it was horrible. It was terrible. And he said after he got the call, he didn't extrapolate on the call. He just said, we went straight to the hospital to be with him. Now, on cross examination, Christopher talked about Lindsay's struggles, that she had a hard time sleeping, she didn't feel well, and she had gone to the ER where his wife was working as a nurse. She was a nurse at South Shore in labor and delivery. And that when she was there, Lindsay did tell his wife some of her struggles. And that his wife referred Lindsay to South Shore Perinatal.

[Brett]

All right, that brings us to Kyle Carney. He's a longtime friend of Patrick. Saw Patrick and his family at least every other month. Said the Lindsay was typically kind and caring, and she had no real changes. After the birth of Cora and Dawson on, I believe it was January 22, 2023, the family came over to the house, brought Cora and Dawson. Lindsay was perfectly normal. They were having basically, like, a bonfire. They were burning some stuff and hanging out. She was a little quiet, but other than that, it was a normal, great day.

[Alice]

Next was Andrew Chacho. He worked with the detectives unit at the state police. Now, he was dispatched to the house and then sent to the cvs, where he retrieved the surveillance video. The purpose really is he's checking out Patrick, right? Making sure all his story is lining up. So, basically, through all the pulling all the surveillance videos, Andrew's able to track Patrick clancy at the CVS and also at the 3V restaurant, all in line with exactly what Patrick said he was doing. The detective mapped out the path that Patrick would have taken and how long it would have taken him to get to those various locations. All of that matched up with the surveillance footage that he got. In other words, it wasn't just a cover. It was exactly the path as you would expect. He also got a search warrant for the outside of the Clancy house, where he was able to collect DNA from Lindsay Clancy. He was able to get posts from Lindsay Clancy's Facebook page. And. And in one of those posts, Lindsay is looking for help with Dawson, who she calls the most difficult human ever. And she went on to say in the post that every single thing is a battle and has been for a while. And she goes through basically the whole day and feels like she has to force him to do normal things. And she was seeking advice on what to do during cross examination. The defense says, well, okay, that post is from May 2021, so more than a year before the murders. And that he found nothing about Lindsay being abusive.

[Brett]

All right, so that's the end of the day, but not the end of court. So we're done with the witnesses. I think they ended, like, one or something. You know, it's.

[Alice]

It was really early.

[Brett]

It's weird. But they're gonna have a hearing, and you might think, wow, it's gonna be a long hearing. It was not a long hearing, but it was an interesting hearing because the defense made a motion for permission to call some witnesses. Basically, they want to call a few experts that they notice late. They did not send notice to the prosecution with the CVS and what the expected testimony is, which is what you have to do with experts until the week before trial. And that's a violation of the local rule. And usually you have to do it, like, 30 days beforehand. So they had asked to do this. The judge is sort of not ruled on it yet because he wanted to see how the evidence comes in, which is pretty typical. The more important your expert is, the more likely you're going to get some grace on a late notice. And he sort of goes through this like, woe is me. I'm a sole practitioner standing here with the weight of the world on my shoulders. You know, I had two murder trials and another trial, another trial. You know, it did all this stuff until right before this began. Only had a week to prepare. Did the best I could. Right. And I mean, honestly, those arguments are pretty effective because the judge doesn't want the fact the lawyer's super busy to prejudice the defendant. This is why it's much better to be a defense attorney than the prosecutor.

[Alice]

It really is.

[Brett]

Judge doesn't care about your schedule and how much you've had to do. But when you got the defendant sitting there, the judge is always thinking, could this get this overturned later on? If I don't let them do this is some court going to say, you know, you excluded their most important witness because they were a day late with the notice. That was improper. So he's going through all this. He wants to call a few different witnesses. He has some experts that he's definitely gonna call, but he has a few others. He wants to call one witness who initially he says is gonna speak about the duty of care that was owed to Lindsey Clancy. And the judge, I think, very wisely says, how is that relevant? And as we've talked about, and we talked about one of our earlier episodes, it's not actually relevant to the question of where was her mind at the time? That's a great question. And the judge even says, this might be great for the civil case. Right. But is that really relevant here in the criminal case? Eventually the defense attorney's like, okay, fine, we don't have to do standard of care, but I do want to talk about the toxicology. So it's more the things they prescribe to her. So it's standard of care from the perspective of, did the failure to follow it cause her to have this event or could possibly have caused her to have this event? And so the judge is like, okay, that I can kind of get behind that. At which point the prosecution's like, well, if he's going to testify about. Not a toxicologist, so why are you all of a sudden saying this guy is going to testify about toxicology? Then they go into the substance of it, basically say, you know, we didn't have enough time to properly respond to these experts. We didn't get to look at their CVs. Other experts can talk about our treatment. And the judge isn't really buying this because the substance of this is, let's say, and this is, you know, this is why Perry Mason moments don't happen. This is why, for instance, the defense attorney is not at the end of trial, going to all of the sudden say, nevermind, it was Patrick who did it. Even holding that all along, you don't get to do that. You have to notice these things. You have to. There's reciprocal discovery. There's going to be motions practice about that. If they tried to make that point, we would immediately break and we'd have to have a long argument about whether or not they could even raise that. Because the whole idea is, we don't want sandbagging. We want all the information from the jury that's relevant. So if you as the prosecutor, okay, they didn't notice this specific witness on this specific point, but you had to know that this was going to be an issue. Like, you knew that at some point the defense is going to say it's the drugs and the way they work together. And since you knew that, why aren't you prepared to rebut that? Why didn't you have some of these doctors who've testified before talk about it? Great question, Judge. I wanted the same thing. One thing that was interesting. And I. I was like, okay, fine. So, you know, we've been wondering, why didn't we get more good testimony about her physical condition? Like, why didn't they clear some stuff up?

[Alice]

Well, it turns out because somebody forgot.

[Brett]

Well, I mean, you know, I don't know. So the actual trauma surgeon, the one who actually treated her, is in the military and currently deployed in the Middle East. Okay, we can't call her now. I think you probably could have figured something out, but that was where the prosecution's excuse about why they didn't do this before and. But the judge didn't really buy in any of this. He's like, look, you knew about this. And another thing, this was the sort of thing we need to take a moment on. One of the other witnesses going to talk about suicide attempt and whether or not the wounds are indicative of a serious suicide attempt. And the judge is like, how could you not have anticipated this? Like, you've been sitting up here talking about how it's not a serious suicide attempt, it's a fake suicide attempt. And the prosecutor's like, no, no, no, no, no. Our position has never been that it wasn't a serious suicide attempt. And the judge is like, what are you talking about? Like, you certainly, from everything you've asked, that that's what it was. And so it turns out the prosecution has some super secret theory about this. Okay, so the theory is not that this was a fake suicide attempt. So we can drop that. I think their super secret theory is similar to something we've said several times. And the thing we've said several times is that Lindsay Clancy was very good at killing her children and not very good at killing herself. And I think what they're gonna say is if she was truly under a psychosis where she was acting in a compelled way to do the things she was doing, then it compelled her to overcome the bounds of motherhood and murder her children. It should have also compelled her to overcome whatever hesitation she had to commit suicide to kill herself. Like, it's not consistent that the voice was so powerful and she could not say no to it and she had to follow through. With it to the letter that she was so brutally efficient at murdering her children, but really bad at killing herself. So I think that's what they're gonna say. I think that's the best possible thing they could say, but we don't know.

[Alice]

I actually wonder if this has been changing and shifting that originally it was not a serious attempt, and I wonder if it's been shifting a little and taking shape as they tried to, like, grapple with why? Because why else would you put it at issue? Right? We've said this all along. Why put an issue. She definitely cut her neck. Maybe not deep, but, like, what are you saying? I think that's the best way to go about it because they're showing, like, the call in between, right? Like, presumably, I don't know if they're going to say this within their timeline. The 6:34 call after she missed a call at 6:33 from Patrick is if she were either in the middle of killing the children or just killed the children, and then she was going to kill herself. If that's like, the call in between, she's already, like. She's supposed to be in the middle of the psychosis, but somehow is able to, like, snap out of it, to have a normal conversation on the phone and then not take the most successful methods of killing herself.

[Brett]

See, now, if I was the defense, my argument would be. And I would. I would consider putting Lindsey on the stand. I think she may have to testify.

[Alice]

She may have to.

[Brett]

She's not gonna have anybody who's gonna say she has any symptoms of psychosis. It's all in her head.

[Alice]

You know, she is including the voices because she never told anyone.

[Brett]

And people keep posting. Oh, you know, it's. It could be completely. There's no symptoms. Okay, fine. But once again, we need some evidence, and I feel like the only evidence we're gonna get is what she says. I would have her say that she was completely under the control of psychosis, that she had killed her kids. And she. And then she got the phone call, and I would have her say that snapped it out. She started to, like, come back a little bit, and then she was, like, hesitating to kill herself. And that's why. That's what I would say if I was the defense.

[Alice]

Then I'm going to rebut you here. We're getting so off track. We said we were going to stay on track, but then why not when you're laying on the ground, scream out, the babies are in the basement. Go help them. What are you Going to do defense, because that is so bad, you have to still be in psychosis at that point. Otherwise those minutes killed Callan. Because when she hit her, Callan could have lived.

[Brett]

She hit head on the frozen ground and it. And then she was disoriented again.

[Alice]

But she could say, yeah, she went back into psychosis at that point. It's a very complex timeline, Judge, and if you would just let me put on these experts, you'd see how complex this is. Okay, sorry. This is clearly not what happened in court today. We are extrapolating what it would be back and forth. And also to show you why this is a difficult case for both the defense and prosecution. But so far. Okay, there's. There's a lot more. And day nine. We are about to enter into day nine. Oh, was there anything more you wanted to say about the motion?

[Brett]

They're ruling.

[Alice]

No ruling. No ruling. Okay. I wore my workout clothes today because it's a workout, y'. All. Day nine. Okay. Today we are getting somewhere because we are actually getting into the people who treated Lindsay and can talk about potential psychosis. So here we go. First witness of the day, Kimberly Hardy. I don't know why she didn't go the day before unless she didn't show up because she kind of fit more into the day before.

[Brett]

Can I say this? This woman now lives in Texas. Apparently she had to fly all the way to Massachusetts for this testimony.

[Alice]

She was on. She was on the stand for like minutes.

[Brett]

I know.

[Alice]

And it wasn't even that important. It was like, I mean, truly, this. That's why I said her testimony is going to fall into like yesterday's camp of like a bunch of people that interacted with them and didn't know anything. Totally normal. Right? This is exactly what we expect. She's not a close friend. Kimberly Hardy worked at the gym that Lindsay worked out at. And Kimberly ran the playroom for kids. Like the. The babysitting. You could use it two hours a day. And she would see Cora and Dawson Clancy in her playroom. She said it was mainly Patrick, but sometimes Lindsay would drop them off and that Lindsay seemed shy. There wasn't much conversation when she dropped him off. And when asked why Callan didn't come, Lindsay said that she was nervous about Callan getting colds. Pretty normal, honestly. Babies getting colds. Horrible. Now, she said that Lindsay was never late picking up the kids because remember, there's a two hour limit and that she never left the property after bringing them. Apparently people do that, like drop kids off at the the daycare at the gym and leave. You're not supposed to do that. It's supposed to be to work out. But she didn't do anything like that. The whole point is, like, she really used it for working out. Right. And Kimberly saw the Clancy's in mid January. She said it was like January 13th and the 17th that Lindsay came in the mornings. And nothing about those two times she saw them in January sticks out in her mind. She said Cora drew a picture and left it with her. The last time that she saw her on cross examination, she said that it. The kids seemed like they were happy kids. They were always excited to see Kimberly, and that she was not close with Lindsay at all. So she's just honestly the girl who ran the, like, daycare room for the gym. I think they also noted that Lindsay worked out. So it was like trying to manage her. That was the implicit was that she was trying to manage her depression. Now, next to the stand was Sarah Carney. Sarah was a friend of Patrick's. They went to school together. And that she and her husband were friends with Patrick from school. And then later on, when Lindsay entered the picture, they became friends with Lindsay as well. Both families, both couples lived in Duxbury, and they would do things like go to the beach together. Their kids were similar ages. They played together. And she had known Lindsay before she had kids. And then through each of the three births of her children, she said she never noticed any changes with Lindsay after she had her babies, that Lindsay was an active person. She was the one who would post, you know, workout videos, working out with her kids in the background playing with toys. And sometimes she did see that the kids were playing with exercise bands in the videos. She didn't notice any changes in the fall of 2022 that Lindsay never discussed postpartum issues with her. And she does talk about this bonfire that both families attended on January 22. She said everyone seemed normal. Lindsay was a little quiet. And when she asked her if she was doing okay, Lindsay said that she was fine. On cross examination, Sarah said that she knew Lindsay for about 12 years, but that it was a social relationship. They weren't particularly close. Sometimes Lindsay would ask her advice about babies and vice versa, because they were, you know, like fellow parents on this journey of parenthood together. She said the bonfire on January 22 was during the day and it lasted a few hours.

[Brett]

Yeah, and honestly, the only moment really, from any of this testimony, that was the kids playing with the exercise bands in the background. The videos. Otherwise, these first witnesses, complete waste Time. But finally we get to maybe the most important witnesses we've heard from so far. Like, up until this point, we've just had sort of crumbs about Lindsay's mental state, as we talked about a few days ago. But now we're actually going to start talking to the doctors who treated her, and we're going to put to the test this notion that Lindsay was horribly failed by the system, that she wasn't treated at all, that she was over medicated. The doctors didn't think about her, didn't care about her, didn't treat her at all. You're gonna see how much of that bears scrutiny. And the first witness is Dr. Aaliyah Goodhart. She is the inpatient psychiatric attending physician at McLean. McLean is where Lindsay spent five days. And they sort of go through the whole process. They discuss section 12, which is the mandatory. You can send someone to an inpatient facility if they. If they're the danger themselves of others. And then there's section 10. And section 10 is when you go voluntarily. So at first you have an acute psychiatric evaluation to determine what's going on with you. This starts at the clinical evaluation center. You meet with a psychiatrist, you meet with a nurse and take your history. Now, during this. So the defense, he keeps doing this thing where he's like. Like, the prosecutor will ask, what is section 12? And he jumps up and he's like, she wasn't section 12. She was section 10. Objection. Which you're not supposed to do. That's called a speaking objection. Most judges hate it when you do that because you're essentially testifying through your objection. He kept doing it, and finally the judge lost it with him. First time. The judge is really snappy. Day nine, and Bass was like, you know, yells at him. He still was reserved in his yelling, but he did, like, make it clear he did not want him to do that. And he anymore. And it basically stops all right now. She said, and I thought this was interesting because, you know, I don't know why I ever watch anything on Tick Tock, but there was an interesting Tick Tock from a nurse who worked at this facility. And I don't know, I don't think she works there anymore. If she does, they're probably gonna fire her. Because she basically described it is the most worthless place ever. They don't do anything, hang out. It's like a. As I described, it's like a very boring resort was the way she described it. This is not how the doctor described it. She said the staffing schedule was the same on weekends and holidays for personnel other than social workers. So she would have met with psychiatrists and nurses and everything else she goes through. Lindsay's sort of coming to McLean. She came to them from the ER at Massachusetts General. It was a Section 10. It was by her choice. She had met with a doctor named Outlaw, which is a great name at mgh. She was medically stable. They did a suicide screening. Her chief complaint was that she was finding it hard to sleep if she didn't take meds. And I'll say this, there's little suicide ideation. We'll see throughout this. But her chief complaint was always sleep. Now, missing as much sleep as she was can really mess with your mind. But that really is the. The main thing for Lindsay is she just could not sleep.

[Alice]

Not voices, not even necessarily, like, pointing at depression. She keeps talking about sleep. That's her complaint about the medications. That's her chief complaint when she's talking to all these doctors. That's what she says to her friends when she goes, remember when she had dinner with her friend? What she said was not, Dawson is so difficult. She said, I'm just not really getting sleep. So sleep is really her chief complaint that she has verbalized all over the place.

[Brett]

So she also talked about how she felt numb, and then she was having side effects of medication. I think Seroquel was her main complaint at this point. So Mass General is affiliated with McLean, so they were able to provide their records to them. And this, including the screening excerpt that was in Dr. Outlaw's note, and there was a screening evaluation by Dr. Hogan. These are all psychiatrists. She did have thoughts of wishing to be dead, but she had no plan. And it didn't seem like it was suicidal thoughts. I mean, I guess if you're wishing to be dead, is that a suicidal thought? I don't know. But she doesn't have a plan. She has no violent or homicidal ideation. There's no evidence of psychosis, no evidence of mania, Just anxiety and this sort of problem with lack of sleep. And she had taken Remeron at one point, and she did say when she started taking that she did have some suicidal thoughts. And so she had stopped taking Remeron. And I think that's consistent with when we saw the pill bottles earlier. And she had not taken very much of that at all. And I don't even think it's. I think it's barely even mentioned in the civil complaint.

[Alice]

So then once she's here, the care plan is that they're going to continue on the medication that she was admitted on. And she was admitted to the hospital. Now in about 15 minutes, they do another check on her and they assess her as low risk. It's a provisional diagnosis, but they say she has major depressive disorder. It's severe without psychotic features. No, without psychotic features. That is literally in there. Meaning they were looking for psychotic symptoms. And the diagnosis was dependent on the interactions they had with Lindsay Clancy as well as the observations of the medical team. She was seen later on January 1st by a different psychiatrist, Dr. Elizabeth Madva. Now, Madhva's notes here note at 12:47pm on January 1st. The eval is conversation. It relies on things reported before and on follow up. And Lindsay denied feeling depressed, but she said she felt numb and mild anxiety at being in a hospital setting and that she had no thoughts of suicide. At this point, it was determined that it was possible numbness was a side effect of the meds she was on. And so the plan was to taper and see if that numbness would go away and that the other symptoms would become more evident. So the plan was that she was on Seroquel, 100 milligrams a day, Valium, 2 milligrams Benadryl. And then at this point she. In her notes, it states that there's suspected bipolar disorder. But in the notes it says Lindsay Clancy disagreed with this suspected bipolar disorder.

[Brett]

And this is interesting just because, and we talked about this a little bit before we went on air, it seems like Lindsay was a difficult patient and we have so many nurses and doctors who listen, I hesitate to even say this, but I would never want to represent a lawyer. I think representing a lawyer would be really annoying. And I can imagine treating a nurse or treating a doctor is really annoying because they know a lot and they're liable to question you. And I think you see that here and you're going to see it as we continue through that. Lindsay just often questioned the advice that she was getting from various physicians.

[Alice]

So Seroquel is used for several purposes, not just for bipolar disorder. So, for example, low doses are used for insomnia. Now, Dr. Madva recommended reducing that Seroquel and monitoring Lindsay's symptoms. Madhva on January 2 also saw Lindsay and she wrote that prior to this doctor's first contact, Lindsay reported sleeping well. On a lesser dose of Seroquel, she reported that she had no delusions, no suicidal ideations, none of the things that would lend anyone to think that she had a psychotic episode. So Dr. Madva continued Lindsay on 75 milligrams, then tapered it down to 50 milligrams the next day.

[Brett]

So there you go. We're tapering off of Seroquel. This is important. The doctors didn't just say, oh, Seroquel's not working for you, having side effects. Well, no more Seroquel for you, then. That'll fix it. Right? That's kind of how it's been described by the defense, is that these doctors were just like wild west with Lindsay, but they're not doing that. They're actually stepping her down 25 milligrams each day to get her off of this drug that she says is causing her lots of problems.

[Alice]

I will say this about the psychiatrist that we've heard from today. There's more to come. But look, just because you're a doctor and a treating doctor doesn't always mean that you're going to be good on the stand. I found them to be very good in terms of being calm and patient, as they explained. And they seem to really know the case. Of course, this is a mental massive case. I also can't imagine what it must be like to treat someone who ends up killing three of their kids. Right. Like, this is horrible on that level as well as a professional. But they all came off not defensive. They all seemed incredibly competent, like they cared about their jobs and that they deal with difficult patients all the time. And that there was nothing that stood out to me in these. This. This day's testimony of psychiatrists of, like, obvious medical malpractice, for example, where they were just, like, throwing drugs around and, like, you know, forget this, let's do this. Maybe you are psychotic. Who knows? Let's go dance. None of that. They were very methodical in the way they testified and explained their steps in trying to figure out what was wrong or how to help.

[Brett]

Lindsay, one point before I continue, because someone mentioned this on Facebook, and some of you may be interested in this. Why can the doctor testify to what other doctors wrote and what nurses wrote? Everything else isn't there. That hearsay. She listened to our hearsay episodes on Legal Briefs. It is hearsay. But there's an exception to hearsay here. Medical records are an exception to hearsay. Documents that experts rely on to form the expert opinion. Also an exception to hearsay. So a doctor can testify to what nurses are writing and other doctors are writing and everything else, that's perfectly fine, not a problem. And we have this doctor who then is telling us nurses notes from January 1st to the 3rd, talks about how Lindsay participated in group activities, that she was working with a social worker, that she would see a mental health worker on January 2nd. She had interactions with both nurses and Dr. Mad. But remember, you have Patrick, who testified earlier that Lindsay told him she had not seen a doctor the whole time she was there, which didn't seem right. Turns out it's not right. She was definitely seeing a doctor. Whether that doctor spent enough time with her, I don't know, but she definitely saw doctors. She reviewed notes. When she met with Lindsay for the first time, it was actually January 3rd, and she had reviewed the notes up to that date. And she took another history. She did another assessment of her mental status, and she said her diagnosis is going to be based on what she sees. She's informed by what people have said in the past, but she's making her own independent diagnosis. She said that Lindsay was polite and cooperative, but she did have an anxious mood. She met with the doctor and a social worker together, and there was also a nurse. They had a team that worked on every patient. And the team consisted, I think, of a doctor, a social worker, a nurse, and maybe a mental health worker. I think there were four people on each team. She had group around noon. She did some more stuff with the mental health worker. Another group at 2:30. She declined group at 350. And she saw another mental health worker before going to bed on January 4th. Apparently she had a good night's sleep and she reported sleeping well, so this was good. And they had a conversation about going home. Now, I question whether she actually slept well because she wanted to go home. And as I think we're gonna see, Lindsay will tell you, if you're a doctor, what you need to hear to get what she wants. And she wanted to go home for Cora's birthday party. So maybe she said, oh, I had a great night's sleep. Oh, the thing that I came here for is really working out. She was originally supposed to be discharged on Friday, but she wanted to go a day early. She said some of her anxiety now was actually coming from being in the hospital and that she thought if she was home with family and children, she would be better off. And the doctor said, we will let you leave a day early, but we want you to have a psych follow up the next day. And she did this for a couple reasons. She wanted to ensure that if Lindsay was unable to sleep the night after discharge, she would immediately meet with someone who would come up with a plan to continue to try and work on this insomnia and monitor her condition secondary purpose. She did not want to let her leave unless she demonstrated that she was capable of taking care of herself. So this was sort of a test. Can you make a follow up appointment for the next day? Follow our directions, prove to us that you're fine. And she did that. So she passed the test and the doctor said that she could leave a day early.

[Alice]

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[Brett]

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[Alice]

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[Brett]

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[Alice]

So the idea for the rest of that plan would be Lindsay takes no Seroquel on Thursday night, but she would remain on Ativan that night. She had Trazodone, a sleep medication, as an option if she couldn't sleep. Now, leaving on Thursday the 5th without a monitor on, with no Seroquel. Now, the doctor said she did not have a concern about the safety of Lindsay or others because Lindsay was future oriented. She was invested in her children. Look, she's leaving to go to a birthday party. That's future oriented. Others invested. She had her parents around her. She had good family and plenty of support. She said that the outpatient follow up was just the next day. And there was no history of postpartum psychosis or suicide. So these things all led the doctor to say, okay, she can go. But Lindsay told her that even if she had any thoughts, she would never carry out a suicide out of concern for her kids and her mom. So whether that's really what she thought or not, she herself said, don't worry, I've never had suicidal ideations, but even if I did, I would never carry them out. Cause I can't. I care too much about my mom and my kids. Now, Lindsey didn't make any statements supporting suicidal ideation and she never reported having thoughts of harming anyone else. So she secured that outpatient appointment on her own, was able to do so, was able to think clearly enough to do so. So the medication plan for Lindsay was Ativan for sleeping. That was just a short term plan. Triazidone as needed, and Melatonin. She didn't give Lindsay a prescription for different doses of Seroquel. She assumed that Lindsay would take what she was prescribed. And the doctor reached out to Patrick. He reported that Lindsay hadn't ever had suicidal ideations, reported that Lindsay was concerned about dependency on drugs. So there wasn't like a potential problem of drug abuse. For example, Lindsay had told the doctors that Patrick was the one concerned about her drug dependency. Now, Patrick said that Lindsay felt societal pressure to take the meds and, and said that he was very unhappy with the medical care that she had received.

[Brett]

He basically said, all her friends are taking psychiatric drugs and she feels like she needs to take them too. Which I thought was.

[Alice]

It's like the opposite of. And it's just another too much.

[Brett]

Yeah, where you're getting this information from Patrick, which conflicts with the information that she's giving you directly. And Lindsay never complained that she wasn't getting seen by staff or doctor. She never filed a complaint, despite there was a mechanism to do so. Posted everywhere around this facility. And she always had the ability to request to see someone. She continued to do groups and engage on the 5th and she was discharged that afternoon. Upon discharge, she was provided with information. Social workers suggested finding a new doctor and someone that she felt comfortable with that could manage her care. She was given a 14 day supply of Ativan, a 14 day supply of Trazodone, and she was asked once again, are you any suicidal, homicidal thoughts? She denied them. Asked that she had a plan. She denied them. Asked if she had any thoughts about harming others. She denied them. Standard questions, every interaction and before discharge. So as far as these people were concerned, you had someone, and I think this is important because these people and the medical, whatever system in general have been hammered. You have somebody come in. She's reporting what she's reporting, she's presenting how she's presenting. She is not presenting or reporting anything that would lead anyone to think this woman's gonna kill her children in three weeks. That is just not coming across. It's not in the documentation. And what this woman is saying is consistent both of what the next doctor will say, but also consistent with all those normal people who knew Lindsay and spoke to her and talk to her and everything else. So I was poo poo. And the prosecution were putting all those people on, but those people who have no reason to lie, Lindsay was telling them the same thing that this lady's saying she told them. So I think we probably can assume it was not a out of line way of treating someone with the symptoms that she's presenting with.

[Alice]

So then it's cross examination. And the defense went into the resources that were provided. They had discussed about going on Psychology Today website, name of a case manager through insurance to contact for assistance and finding new providers. And they really hammered the fact that Lindsay voluntarily Section 10, right. Admitted herself and she was not committed. In other words, she chose to go. She was seeking help, she was crying out for help and didn't get it. And she was in the EB1 South Ward. Specifically, the defense wanted to hammer on the fact that basically McLain wasn't well staffed during New Year's. This is New Year's Eve. She he said that the doctors on shift were four psychs assigned, including this doctor, a nurse assigned to each team in four teams. Then the team included a psych, a psychiatrist, a nurse, a social worker, an assigned mental health worker and that they had three shifts a day and that the doctors are not assigned shifts. They went on to say that when Lindsay admitted herself, she was evaluated in CEC by Psych. And then they went into the unit where Medvar later saw her on January 1st. The full psych evaluation consisted of her chief complaint, sleep, the history of presence or presence of illness, substance abuse, mental status exam, prior history, et cetera. And that Dr. Outlaw's prior history, part of the exam was just the prior history from, like a document on her previously.

[Brett]

So the third party contacts we're talking about were done by a social worker. This is the social worker who contacted Patrick, and she's the one who gave them the information that Patrick provided. Now, there's also Dr. Gelada. They talked about this. She was being treated by Dr. Gelada. Now, Dr. Gelada's records were not available to the folks here. And this was something the defense hammered on because they did not seek those records, even though she was treating her. Essentially, it's not on the same system. They could have gotten access to those records, but they didn't feel as though they needed them because essentially Lindsay was. Was a very cooperative patient. She seemed to be truthful. She wanted to get better. She was telling them details of what sort of medication she was on, probably helped, that she was a nurse, she could speak the language. And so they just didn't feel there was any need to get that information from Dr. Gelada. But, you know, was this a good idea? I don't know. There was also Letitia Dukes. She was at South Shore. She's the one who did the perinatal thing that we're going to talk about more with the next doctor prior to the admission. So she knew that Lindsay, the doctor who's being cross examined at this point, knows that Lindsay is on Seroquel and Valium. And she also knew that Dr. Tufts had been the first psychiatrist consulted. She is an expert, apparently, in perinatal care. And Lindsay had told them that she prescribed Zoloft, which is an SSRI antidepressant. And as I said, Lindsay was cooperative, she was forthcoming. And there was no reason to second guess what Lindsay had reported. And they also knew from Lindsay that Dr. Gelada had concerns that she was bipolar, which had matched up with some of the concerns of the doctors there. But once again, was something that Lindsay denied, and we're going to see this later on, that it's a real question whether or not she has bipolar. Dr. Tufts, you know, is going to talk about this. So she knew at this point that Dr. Tufts had prescribed 25 milligrams of Zoloft, which had then increased to 50. There was no reason to think there was anything wrong with this. And in fact, this turns out to be true. There were no psychologists on staff in the unit, which is that a good thing, bad thing? I don't know. I guess it depends on whether or not you're a psychiatrist or a psychologist, who you think people should be seeing. Psychiatrists or medical doctors, they can prescribe medication, psychologists or not. Doesn't necessarily mean psychologists aren't as good or better than psychiatrists. They're just different. And so a lot of the psychiatric testing that a psychologist would give was not given at this hospital, which is something the defense hammered on a little bit as well. And he also does the standard thing. Did you know she called a suicide hotline? Did you know this? Did you know that? Which obviously the doctor does not know.

[Alice]

So she does know that a social worker talked to Patrick and that when Lindsay was first prescribed Zoloft, she reported she was unable to sleep for 48 hours. Now, she doesn't exactly remember the exact time. She just knows that Lindsay had difficulty sleeping and would have preferred to have more information about sleep patterns for adjusting her needs. The difficulty sleeping is a symptom of several conditions and can worsen others. And she knew that Lindsay was struggling with anxiety and insomnia, and she did observe her sleep while on unit. She would not know after she left unit because she was preferred that her sleep patterns prior to New Year's Eve, not prior medical history other than what Lindsay would have told her. Now, sometimes patients lie about their symptoms, as Brett has told you. He lies about how many drinks he has to his doctor. Lindsay, this doctor reported, was cooperative and reliable. So the expectation was that she would follow the recommended care. Remember, they had asked Patrick if she would follow the prescriptions, and Patrick had said, yeah, she's afraid of dependency. She's not gonna abuse this. So the doctor then said that her intrusive thoughts were suicidal ideation and that she would stop using Zoloft after discussing with Dr. Tufts. This Dr. Probably hasn't treated anyone with postpartum psychosis before, but she has treated postpartum depression for over 20 years. Then they discuss the DSM, which is like the manual for diagnosing mental illnesses. In it, it says that postpartum depression may be a subcategory of depression and not sure about postpartum psychosis, though postpartum goes from about four, four weeks to 12 months after a baby is Born depending on who you ask. And the doctor was asked if she was aware of the efforts to include postpartum psychosis in the DSM 6 she said she was vaguely aware. And she was asked about the thyroid. She did say that thyroid can affect mood and anxiety, but that they did not do a thyroid test on Lindsay. So that's what they had there. Now, this was interesting because she clearly wasn't an expert on postpartum psychosis and the dsm. The DSM and what's included as, like, diagnoses is like a whole other board. Like, for example, there are sentencing guidelines commissions that, like, help advise on what the criminal guidelines are for sentencing. That lawyers. Unless you sit on those and. Or follow them and, like, read academic articles about it, you may not know. So this DSM stuff, she didn't really know what she was talking about, but that's totally normal. Unless she was actually someone who, like, worked on DSM categorization and revisions. Next was they talked about the Edinburgh Postpartum Depression Scale. She said that this was not administered on Lindsey because they don't administer scales. It's just not one of the tools they use. They have lots of tools, and this was not one they used. She also says that it's not a regular procedure to do a blood test. And her team did discuss. Discuss the case in rounds, and they discussed Lindsay's history.

[Brett]

So in the middle of this, they take a break. And this is a moment. They got some play in the press. The defense attorney gets into a tizzy about the prosecution supposedly saying to, quote, shut her up when they were taking a break yesterday. So you may recall, as we talked about earlier, Lindsay was having a little bit of a breakdown during the autopsy photos. What actually happened is one of the prosecutors said to shut it off. Talking about the screen with the pictures, the autopsy photos on it, as they were going to break and as they were wheeling Lindsay out. And this somehow got translated into shut her up. Defense attorney. You know, I'm glad you're not on the Patrick did it train, but you might want to spend a little less time on the tiktoks so you don't embarrass yourself in the future. But the judge gives an ammunition. Don't say anything you shouldn't say, and if you do, I'm gonna kick you out, et cetera, et cetera. And we all moved on. She comes back, a couple more questions. She's not discharged against medical advice, and she reached out to the provider as instructed. At this point, we have redirect in which the doctor is shown Lindsay's discharge paperwork. This is important because the defense attorney had sort of hammered on. You didn't really give her any resources. You sent her to a website and told her to talk to her insurance, and that's it. They give her the paperwork. It actually contains two different packets with instructions and resources for someone who is discharged and directed her to a caseworker because she was looking for a new provider. And as we all know, if you're looking for a new provider, you need to talk to your insurance company to make sure the provider is covered by insurance. She had mentioned fogginess as a problem, but she improved while she was at McLean. And she reiterates, we take history into account, but the main way we diagnose people is what is happening in front of us. And of course, you can imagine if you did the opposite. If she came in, she looked at her records and diagnosed her based on the records, what would the obvious attack be? What do you mean you didn't talk to her? What do you mean you didn't spend time with her? What do you mean, you just took their word for it, right? Well, they don't do that at McLean. She does her own evaluation. So good, bad or indifferent, and I'm sure we'll see more of this in the civil case. It did not feel to me coming out of this that the defense had scored a lot of points or really just shown how incompetent these people at McLean were. No wonder she went on a killing spree afterwards. If you went there, you would too, type thing, Right? There was not that kind of moment during the cross.

[Alice]

I think that's exactly right. Everything we were told before about McLean and how, like, ineffective or maybe even malpractice it was, doesn't seem to be the case so far. We're not done. Next is Dr. Jennifer Tufts. I'll say I was very impressed with this testimony. So she's a psychiatrist, and she's been one for four years. She went to medical school and then to Boston Medical center for her residency. She treated Lindsay Clancy. She first saw her on September 15, 2022. So you'll remember her name, probably because she will appear on a lot of these prescriptions. This is obviously pre murder. Now, she said that Lindsay previously had taken Prozac and Wellbutrin while in nursing school. And Lindsey told her she had no side effects at the time. Now, Prozac is an ssri, and Lindsay said she drank one to two drinks five times a week. And she said she Felt guilty about that.

[Brett]

So from experience, that means she's drinking at least a bottle of wine every night.

[Alice]

I was gonna say four to six drinks. You double it. Because, like, I don't know that you'd feel that guilty about drinking a drink a night, but.

[Brett]

And let me just say, now, Lindsay might, because she's that kind of anxious person. This Prozac thing is pretty important because, remember, the whole defense theory is you don't give an SSRI to somebody who has bipolar because it triggers them. And that didn't happen to her in nursing school. Doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen later. But it is a data point that we have that cuts against that argument the defense is trying to take.

[Alice]

Yes. Now, Lindsey listed her height as 5:6. And she said that her symptoms included anxiety attacks, depressed mood and unable to feel pleasure and racing thoughts. She did not check off the feelings of emptiness or impulsive behavior or excess energy buckets. She filled out a suicide risk factor form, and she stated that she did not want to end her life and she did not have a plan for how to kill herself. She said she did not have access to weapons, and she had not made a suicide attempt, nor has she done anything to hurt herself. Importantly, she said she had not heard voices telling her to hurt herself, that she had not heard voices telling her to hurt others. And the answer to all the questions on the checklist for this suicide risk factors were no. Now, she also gave her a generalized anxiety disorder screening. Now, Tufts just brought her notes and kept them up there with her, which was great because the defense remember what they've been doing. This is they probably learned. The prosecution probably learned from this and was like, just bring your notes up there with you, because he's gonna play this, and you can be like, let me look at my notes. So well played, prosecution. Way to learn from days before. Now, Lindsay responded that she feels anxious, she can't control worrying, and nearly every day, she's feeling these anxiety, worrying feelings. She indicated anxiety disorder, and then Dr. Tufts also did a screening tool for depression. Now, some answers were positive, so she needed to be assessed for depression because she felt down she was depressed or hopeless.

[Brett]

She reported no hallucinations, no symptoms of mania, no symptoms of psychosis. And this was interesting because this is the first time we got a rundown by a psychiatrist about what the symptoms of psychosis are. As I've said many times, it seems like everybody talks about this case, wants to act like psychosis is the ninja of mental health issues. And you just. You can't see it coming. It just comes upon you. And there's no way to know that is not true. It may manifest like that, but there certainly are symptoms you can look for, and some of them are. And this is what this doctor was looking for every time she saw Lindsay. So there are physical signs. You can appear disheveled, you can be agitated, you can be uncooperative. You can have loud speech, fast speech, or just not speaking at all. And then internally. And this can manifest, obviously, when you're talking to someone. You have disorganized thoughts, you're hard to understand, you jump around a lot, and the content of your thoughts is about bizarre or paranoid things. And so she did an assessment on her for psychosis, which she does with every patient. And there were no signs in the first meeting. And Lindsay denied ever having heard voices or ever seeing things people can't see. She said she was well oriented, and she had no issues at this time with insight or judgment. She had no issue with memory, no issue with her general knowledge of the world. And she also assessed her mood. Lindsay's mood was okay. Now, mood is what you tell the doctor. Affect is what the doctor sees. So Lindsay says, I'm okay. Doctor sees anxious. And this is sort of consistent with what we know. And she talked about a few things you look for for anxiety. Voice quivering, shaking, appear nervous, and a few other things.

[Alice]

So Dr. Tufts said that her first meeting with Lindsay was about 50 to 60 minutes long. And Lindsay's biggest concern was anxiety. So Dr. Tufts recommended therapy in Zoloft. They had a discussion about whether Lindsay wanted to take the Zoloft because Lindsey was reluctant about medications. But Dr. Tufts explained that the first line medication for treating anxiety was the loft, and it's safe for babies when breastfeeding. So she gave her a 25 milligram for one week and then increased it to 50 milligrams. And when Lindsay took it or she prescribed it, Lindsay never called Dr. Tufts to complain about the Zoloft. Then Dr. Tufts referred Lindsay to Jennifer McAllister, who's a therapist now. Dr. Tufts would review these records from the therapy sessions to help guide her treatment of Lindsay. And her goals for Lindsay were symptom reduction and improved functioning. Lindsay said she worried about side effects in General. And so Dr. Tufts went over the side effects of Zoloft with Lindsay. Lindsay was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and adjustment disorder with depressed mood. On September 15, Dr. Tufts had an appointment with Lindsay. There was a detailed history of present illness, for example, that Lindsay had tried Zoloft after her second baby that she mentioned initial side effects which are common in transient. And she doesn't remember them exactly, but it wasn't particularly concerning. Now, Dr. Chufts noted these are typical side effects that affect the gut because serotonin is in the gut and the brain. And Lindsay noted that she was very anxious to leave the baby. She's worried that Callan won't eat or sleep because he's refusing the bottle and that makes her irritable. She said that she had no ideations, no concern about hurting her baby and she denied any thoughts of hurting the baby. And they had a treatment follow up plan.

[Brett]

You knew you had serotonin in your, in your gut. Explain so many things about my, my eating habits, I think. Okay, so one thing you're going to notice as we go through this is Dr. Tufts met with Lindsay a lot. This was not. She met with her once, gave her some drugs and sent her on. She then meets with her on September 28th and they're following up on the Zoloft. Turns out Lindsay decided not to take it. She did say she was feeling a little bit better and she said the baby was getting sleep, so she was able to get sleep. They did a mental status exam and she was appropriate across the board. No real issues. The doctor did say that she felt like her insight was poor. And the reason for that was she had clinically significant anxiety. But despite that, she did not want to try the medicine that she was being prescribed for this issue. She noted that her meetings are about 25 minutes. There's 17 minutes of therapy and then the complete meeting takes a little bit longer. At this point, she reminds Lindsay, you need to go make that appointment with Dr. McAllister. And Lindsay says she will do that. Guys, if you know us, you know that we are always feeding children and usually that means we're having to cook something. That's where our place comes in. Our place makes beautiful, high performance kitchenware designed to make home cooking easier, simpler and more enjoyable. Everything is designed to be multifunctional so you're not filling your kitchen with single use pans and appliances that only do one thing. And this is important to me with three little kids, this. Their cookware is made without forever chemicals and has been since day one. It's third party tested to meet global safety standards. Their products aren't just aesthetically pleasing, they genuinely perform, which is what keeps people coming back.

[Alice]

Okay, guys, I heard all the hype about the Wonder Oven Pro and I thought, I don't know I have so many devices in my kitchen. I am cooking literally three times a day every single day. I don't know if I should add yet another appliance to my countertop. Hold up because I got it. I got the Wonder Oven Pro and I can honestly say it has now become one of my most used appliances in my kitchen. It's an 8 in 1 that preheats 60% faster than a traditional oven and cooks up to 40% faster so meals actually happen quicker. It air fries, it roasts, bakes, toasts, reheats, proofs, dehydrates and broils all in one cook. Compact footprint and every cooking surface is made without forever chemicals. It's especially great for quick meals, reheating leftovers, crisping things up on nights when you don't want to turn on the full oven. I did that tonight. We were out late. The kids were so hungry. Everyone was dirty. I had maybe 10 minutes to prepare dinner before everything just melted down. So while the kids were still taking off their shoes, washing their hands, I started the Wonder Oven Pro with the air fryer. I made fries, fresh chicken and vegetables in minutes. They were ready to eat quite literally in 10 minutes. And everything tasted amazing and it fed my entire family of six people. Upgrade your kitchen with our place today. Visit fromourplace.com prosecute and use code prosecute for 10% off sitewide. That's F-R-O-M O U R P L-A C E.com P-R-O S E C U T E and use code prosecute for 10% OFF site wide. With a 100 day trial, you can try it completely risk free. So then on October 3rd, Lindsey needs paperwork because she wants a maternity leave extension. But she doesn't feel comfortable going back to work yet because she says that the baby won't take a bottle. And so during her meeting with Dr. Tufts, she discusses her anxiety. Now she felt like a medication might be helpful after all, despite the hesitations earlier on. But she wanted to try therapy before medication. Now Dr. Tufts thought it was important for her to do therapy so she could spend some more time with Lindsay and the team could figure out a better treatment plan for her. They did a mental status exam, but nothing had changed. Her insight was still poor, as she previously reported a week earlier. Lindsay then met with McAllister, the therapist, and she said that she was close to her parents and her sister, that she was not particularly close with her in laws and she didn't allow her in laws to watch the children. But she didn't give any particular reason why.

[Brett]

So.

[Alice]

And I think this is relevant because she's seeing the doctor a lot, right?

[Brett]

She is. She needs the paperwork for the maternity leave. She says baby's not taking the bottle. Seems like that's not true, but whatever, we're just going to leave that there.

[Alice]

Okay, I'll note this because a bunch of you are noting it. Yes, I agree with you. It is very common for the actual breastfeeding mother to not be able to feed a bottle because the baby's like, no, I want the real thing. But you would think usually when you report something like the baby's refusing the bottle, you've tried other methods because it, especially a labor and delivery nurse, I think would note that, yeah, it can be difficult for a breastfeeding mother to feed a bottle to her own baby. But that's where the moment we. I did this when I was going back to work, leaves the room and like dad or in laws or sister feeds the bottle to the baby. And only then, if the baby continues to refuse the bottle, do you think, okay, there might be an issue. So I only note that because I recognize that breastfeeding mothers may have difficulty feeding their own baby's bottles. But she's generalized here, saying, she hasn't said, I've tried everything. She's just reporting. And people take it at face value that the baby's refusing the bottle.

[Brett]

So October 10th, Lindsay follows up on this whole return to work extension thing. She needs to change the document because tufts in the document had put that when Lindsay returned to work, she needed a reduced work schedule, which is something that Lindsay and she had agreed on. But it was a little ambiguous about when Lindsay wanted to start. Lindsay wanted to go back to work around January 1st. She wanted to set that as the returns date with the reduced schedule, and she needed to adjust the the document. Ten days later, October 20, they have another meeting and Lindsay tells her that she decided to take the Zoloft after all, and she had done it for one week. Now, what was supposed to happen is she starts as Zoloft on the lowest level, she takes it for one week, and then she was supposed to step up. So what she said was she took the Zoloft for a week, then she stepped up, and after she stepped up, she felt awful. This is interesting because it doesn't seem like it's true. As we know, as the defense attorney pointed out in his opening statement, Lindsay took exactly seven pills of Zoloft. She took one week of Zoloft. She did not take nine pills, which is what you would expect, because the Step up is supposed to be taking two pills the next day. She didn't do that. Maybe she thought a week was five days. She did five days and then did the two, I don't know. But it's at least inconsistent with what we've heard before. And now she says after she did the step up, now she's feeling even more anxious. She can't sleep at all. She went 24 hours of sleep, all of these things, and now she's scared to try something new. She's worried about any other drugs. Now, she is asked at this point if she's suicidal or has homicidal thoughts. She says no. And as the doctor said, she was very clearly not psychotic, which was how she described it. She did appear, however, depressed, and she was concerned that she would get suicidal thoughts. This was part of her anxiety. I don't know what that means. I don't know how one is concerned that they will feel suicidal in the future and that not be them feeling suicidal now, but nevertheless, she's worried that she's going to feel suicidal in the future. So at this point, the doctor says, okay, we need to stop Zoloft. It's clearly not working and you don't really want to do anything else. So she says, let's talk about some natural remedies, talking about natural things you can do since you don't want to do a prescription. And they go through various things. And she says, essentially, I was not going to push her to do an additional drug if she didn't want to do that, if she truly doesn't want to take prescribed medication, we need to find something else.

[Alice]

So on October 21st, the next day, she has another appointment. Lindsay said she was feeling poorly after the Zoloft, so the doctor wanted to follow her closely. And Lindsay was planning on making another appointment with McAllister, but she had not done it yet. Now, Lindsay reported she did not sleep the night before, but she still reported having no ideations. She did have a depressed affect and even though she said she wasn't depressed, just anxious, now these meetings up to this point have all been virtual. She decided to start Ativan as needed for severe anxiety on the lowest dose because she wanted Lindsay to try for one week. And she recommended more therapy with McAllister. And she told Lindsay she wanted a one week follow up.

[Brett]

And basically the doctors asked, why did you want to see her so soon? And she says she was having problems. We're trying out these other drugs. I want to see how they work, so I want to see her often. I don't want to go a long period of time without seeing her. On October 26, they have another meeting. At this point, her affect was depressed. She said she was anxious and depressed. And they discussed the Ativan. Lindsay said it made her feel less anxious, but it did not help her sleep. She had tried Benadryl and it had helped, which the doctor is fine with that. Another reporting, I'd seen that the doctor told take Benadryl, but it seems like that was actually Lindsay who decided to do that. She had no signs of psychosis. She had finally scheduled another appointment with McAllister. So they start talking about new medication. At this point, she's been off the Zoloft long enough. The side effects have resolved. So they decided to try Busbar twice a day. They did 5 milligrams, once again, the lowest dose. So it's consistent. Every time she puts her on a drug, she starts at the lowest dose. And she says the reason for that is she had concerns about side effects. And obviously if you start on a lower dose, you can manage those side effects better. Now, this is a drug that lowers anxiety. And she says, take Ativan as needed. So you have these longer term drugs which if you take them long enough, are intended to lower your anxiety long term. The Ativan is supposed to be, you know, you're having an anxiety attack. You take it to manage those sort of severe anxiety moments. She also told her she should take hydroxyzine, which is similar to Benadryl, but it's both better than Ativan because Ativan has some addictive qualities and it works better for anxiety than Benadryl because Benadryl is not really for anxiety. And she's still apprehensive, but she doesn't tell her anything specific. Now, what she does do is, and she does have another appointment on October 31st with Jennifer McAllister. She goes to the appointment and it is an hour long.

[Alice]

So a couple days later, on November 2nd, Lindsay has a virtual appointment with Dr. Tufts. Now, Dr. Tufts said that Lindsay never said she wanted to do an in person meeting, but Lindsay said she did not start the bus par she was too afraid to start it. And so she continued with the Ativan. And there was no discussion of kind of the other medications. Dr. Tufts reported that Lindsay's affect was appropriate and that she reported normal mood. And they also discussed alternatives to Ativan. Now, it was not a medication she was supposed to take for a Long time. Like Brett said, it's supposed to be for those like anxiety attacks because it can create dependency. Now, Remeron, Trazodone, Hydroxyzine, et cetera, those have no risk of dependency, and they can help with sleep and anxiety. But Lindsay said that she had no change in mental state. So she decided to taper the ativan slowly by 0.25 milligrams every two weeks. But she had not yet decided on these other new medications that had been suggested by Dr. Tufts. On November 22, Dr. Tufts learned that Lindsay had started at the South Shore Perinatal Clinic and that she was using the Ativan and the Benadryl. Now, Dr. Tufts said that Lindsay was supposed to be off Ativan by then. Remember, she was going to taper off that Ativan. Now, Lindsay denied that she had suicidal and homicidal ideations, and she said that she would transfer to South Shore and stop seeing Tufts. So Lindsay is the one who says she's going to not see Dr. Tufts anymore. They talked about a return to work letter, and Dr. Tufts gave her one.

[Brett]

But Lindsay doesn't end with Dr. Tufts because apparently her initial plans really work out. She has another appointment on December 1st. Lindsay scheduled this herself, which is something you could do if you needed to schedule an appointment. Apparently, it was very easy to do so with Dr. Tufts. So she goes back to see her, and she said that she decided not to return to work. She wasn't getting better, and without Ativan, she could not sleep. I am kind of interested in this whole Ativan thing because it seems like the only drug Lindsay liked was Ativan. And it seems like maybe she was taking it too much. I don't know what the effect would be there, but certainly Dr. Tufts wanted her to wean off with this. And you would think Lindsay would want to do that, too, given her concerns about addiction, but she's not. In fact, it seems like she's starting to rely on it more regularly than you're supposed to, because it's supposed to not be for regular usage.

[Alice]

In fact, it appears that she was given multiple other alternatives that were supposed to be not. No risk of dependency, and she turned them all down.

[Brett]

So it turns out when she goes to South Shore, they are prescribing her more drugs. She gets prescribed Trazodone, 50 to 150 milligrams, Prozac at 10 milligrams. She tried Remeron and Seroquel. Seroquel is what is going to end up being the problem. That leads her to McLean. Now, she didn't love all these drugs. They were prescribed by South Shore. Trazodone is a sleep medicine. 50 to 150 is the commonly prescribed dose. Between there for sleep, you can take it for other things. You go higher than that, but that's for sleep. Prozac is an ssri, which is one that she had tried before, remember back when she was in nursing school. This time it sort of bothered her sleep. She was still having this issue with being able to sleep. Now Remeron is an antidepressant. She also had Klonopin, which is a benzodiazepine. She was prescribed that as well. So she said that Rimiron had made her have intrusive thoughts that made her feel like she was going to die. She said she didn't have suicidal ideation, but she was close to it. She was feeling hopeless. She did not have any plans. At this point, she has what may be the most sort of honest assessment of her own issues. She says, this is probably a me thing. I keep reaching out to different people and not sticking to the plan. And this was a problem that Dr. Tufts really kind of hammered and said, you need to find one doctor who can manage your medication. You need to have a plan that you're following with one person who's overseeing it, which is a legitimate issue. And she noted some medications can take a while to kick in. It's going to take time. You have to get past these initial side effects because it takes time to change the neurotransmitters, transmitters in the brain. She also talked to Lindsay about a possible bipolar disorder and whether or not she had any symptoms of that. So poor reactions to the medications could indicate bipolar disorder. That's one of the things the defense attorneys talked about. Now, if you give an SSRI to a bipolar person, it can cause issues. Well, this doctor is recognizing that potential problem and is now addressing it. With Lindsay, she was assessed, but the doctor said she clearly was not bipolar. She did not meet the criteria. She had the bi, but not the polar, which is not right, I know, but she had. She had the depression, but she did not have the other side. She didn't have the euphoria. The doctor said, you look typically for like seven days of euphoria with high energy, with grandiosity, with increased risk taking behaviors, pressured speech. She talks so much you can't even stop them, that kind of thing. And she just had none of these symptoms. She just didn't have any symptoms of the other side of bipolar. In any event, at this point, South Shore was really managing her medical care. So Dr. Tufts is trying to help, but she sees herself in the secondary role now, given that Lindsay has gone to South Shore as well. And in fact, she had an appointment the next day with South Shore. At this point, they did talk about lamotrigine, Lamictal, and whether or not that was something she might be interested in taking. But once again, this was just a discussion with her. She wasn't going to prescribe it because she was going to this other thing. They discussed a possible partial hospitalization program, one that she could go to every day for a period as long as she needed. It wouldn't be a place where she was locked up. It wouldn't be a place where she would spend the night, but somewhere she could go to get a lot of sort of more intensive therapy. And Dr. Tufts had recommended one at Brookline, but Lindsay obviously never, never did that.

[Alice]

So we know that she goes to South Shore, but she still doesn't end her relationship with Dr. Tufts. Later that month, right after Christmas, on December 26th, Lindsay sees Dr. Tufts again, and she says that she's having a rough time. Valium and Seroquel had helped with the sleep, but she reported no suicidal plans, that she was feeling hopeless. And she did have some suicidal ideations, though no plans, and she had a fear of not getting any better. Mass General had offered inpatient plan for her at McLean. At that time, she had turned them down. She thought the depression was related to the Seroquel, but that was Dr. Tufts observation. But Dr. Tufts observed that Lindsey seemed less depressed than last time, so she wasn't really sure about that. So the plan was for Lindsay to go to Women and Infants Program, and she decided to put Lindsey on Lamictal at 25 milligrams, which is the lowest dose, and to plan to taper her Valium.

[Brett]

I was just going to say, it really seems like, despite what we've been told, Dr. Tufts is really trying to both bring Lindsay off some of these drugs that maybe aren't working, but also figure out something that's going to work for her, something that's going to help this issue that she has.

[Alice]

And this is. This is a really good point, because I'm getting an appreciation from Dr. Tuft's testimony that unlike, say, I think the patient always has some say into the medications that they take, right? Like whether you're allergic to penicillin and whether you have a nausea response to some sorts of opioids, they take that into account. But typically, it's like if you need an antibiotic, they may change the type of antibiotic. Like, you're allergic to penicillin, okay, we'll give you another type of antibiotic, but you need an antibiotic, so we're going to give you one. Whereas when it comes to, like, mental illness treatments, you can see that Dr. Tufts, in a lot of ways, is constrained in what she can do because she can offer and explain the effects or non effects these certain drugs will take. But Lindsay's refusing to take them, so there's not much she can do. She's not going to prescribe something and have these pills hang out there if her patient has said, I'm not going to take that, I'm too scared to take it. So she's not going to give her a bottle of 20 pills if that's the case. So this is really interesting because you can see there doesn't seem to be a lot of her pushing drugs. There's a lot of her explaining the options. And it appears that Lindsay is really driving the train on the medications here. So on January 6, 2023, Dr. Tufts learned that Lindsay had just been discharged from McLean and that Lindsey continued to feel depressed, and she thought Seroquel was to blame. So she went to McLean to taper off that Seroquel. She was taking Trazodone, Ativan, remember that Ativan she was supposed to taper off of two months earlier, and Melatonin. Now, they were all low doses, but she was still taking those. Lindsay reported no suicidal or homicidal ideations. Only side effects she felt was what she thought was the Ativan wearing off. When she was more anxious, she reported feeling numb. And Dr. Tufts was concerned about this ongoing depression. So the plan was to increase the trazodone to 150mg, as she had tolerated that particular drug, and to monitor if the depression would get better without the Seroquel. Now, Dr. Tufts described Lindsay as deteriorating. She seemed stronger. It seemed like this anxiety was stronger than it had been, and the only three options she seemed were a little worse than before. Now, nothing led her to think that Lindsay was a danger to herself or others. And she didn't think that a section 12 involuntary admittance was necessary at this time.

[Brett]

And once again, Ativan comes back, as Alice pointed out, and you have Lindsay, who seems to be saying that she feels fine when she's on the Ativan, but when it begins to wear off, that's when she becomes more anxious. And I Just I'm really curious about that. I'm curious if we'll go more into Ativan later.

[Alice]

I want someone to tell. Yeah, if you. I hope they do. But also if you're in the medical field. I don't know a lot about Ativan. I didn't do a lot of prosecutions about dependency to Ativan. I don't understand actually what dependency on it is like or what withdrawal is like.

[Brett]

If she was taking a lot of Ativan and she was taking it regularly as opposed to as needed when she had some sort of anxiety attack or whatever you want to call it, is that a problem? I don't know. And we haven't heard testimony as to that other than this doctor saying advan is not a drug you want to take for a long period of time. So I'm curious about that because maybe that tells us something about what happened. So that's a big question I have and I want to know more about that.

[Alice]

By the way, I'm seeing that it's supposed to be intended for such short term use as it shouldn't be taken beyond two weeks to maybe months at the most. So it really is very short term use.

[Brett]

And I don't know exactly when she went on Ativan for the first time. I'd have to go back and look.

[Alice]

She was trying to taper back in November, right?

[Brett]

She was trying to taper off of it.

[Alice]

No, maybe October.

[Brett]

But I'm trying to see when she started it. October 21, Ativan as needed for severe anxiety. That's when it started. That's when she first took Adam. Two months later now, and now we're in January. She was supposed to taper off of it back in November and she's still on it. That just seems like an issue to me, but I guess we'll. We'll see if there's.

[Alice]

And that would be consistent if she was given it in October. Two weeks or so is kind of the recommended time period to take it. So tapering in November would fit into that schedule.

[Brett]

I also another question I have is how much she was drinking at this time, because remember in September she's drinking a couple drinks a night at least,

[Alice]

which may mean a bottle a night.

[Brett]

Now maybe she has stopped entirely when she started taking these drugs because I don't think many of these drugs react well with alcohol. But that's another question. I mean, these are things we just haven't heard any evidence on yet and we'll just have to see.

[Alice]

That's really interesting. Ativan withdrawal symptoms include anxiety and insomnia as the top two symptoms.

[Brett]

That is interesting. Okay, so she is in this deteriorating condition, whatever that means. But she seems a little worse than she did before, which is not great because it's January 6th, and she's just coming out of McLean. You also wonder. And now I'm just speculating. I hate to even speculate. But note, she wanted to leave McLean early. Was she able to take Ativan while she was in McLean or were they allowing her to take out of it? I'm not sure. It's another question.

[Alice]

Maybe she was supposed to be off of it because she was on the Benadryl.

[Brett]

Is that what it was?

[Alice]

Yeah. Okay.

[Brett]

All right.

[Alice]

She was. She was supposed to be off of it that night, that she was gonna leave.

[Brett]

So January 9, 2023, she's back with Dr. Tufts only three days later. The trazodone apparently had helped, but she was still getting rebound anxiety from Ativan, which I think is what Alice was just talking about. As you're coming off of Ativan, you're getting anxious about it. She said her mood was okay. She was not able to cry, but she was able to laugh. She had no thoughts of homicidal or suicidal ideation, no signs of psychosis. She was still depressed, even off of seroquel, which convinced Dr. Tufts that she'd been right from the beginning, that it wasn't Seroquel causing the depression. They talked about Wellbutrin, which she had taken before, and Amitriptyline. They did not describe any of these at the time, as they had decided on Valium to help get her off of Ativan. We got to get her off of Ativan, So now we're talking about Valium to help do that. Later on, she emailed about ketamine therapy. Dr. Tufts actually thought this could be a pretty good option for her, given that nothing else was working. But it was hard to get it covered by insurance, and she needed to show that she had tried four different antidepressants. In the email, she said she was depressed and desperate for something to quickly get her out of this.

[Alice]

She was.

[Brett]

Was tired of being depressed. She was ready not to be depressed anymore. And the doctor said, look, ketamine is a reasonable thought, but she did not feel like they were quite there yet. Now, this is January 9th. Once again, Lindsay's obviously having some issues, but she's not saying they. Are these as serious as they were, apparently.

[Alice]

So on January 16th, Lindsay saw Dr. Tufts again. Dr. Tufts reported that Lindsay's mood was still low, still depressed. Lindsey reported she could get out of bed and take care of basics with herself and her baby. But the bonding with Callan felt forced. She said she had no ideations, no signs of psychosis, and that they discussed Valium taper so that she wouldn't have to take a drug for sleep. They agreed to a plan, and they decided to try amitriptyline, an older antidepressant, which she prescribed at 10 milligrams, the lowest dose.

[Brett]

A lot of you probably take amitriptyline for headaches. It's a common migraine medication.

[Alice]

So she comes and sees Dr. Tufts the day before the murders, on January 23rd. Dr. Tufts says that her mood and affect are depressed and flat. They tried the amitriptyline, and there were no side effects. So she was doing all right. She was a little more anxious, and she had a little bit of a decreased appetite. She was now tapered down to 2 milligrams of Valium. It appeared that Lindsay had no motivation. She had to force herself to get out of bed and out of the house. She still said she had no suicidal or homicidal ideations, and she had no signs of psychosis, as reported by Dr. Tufts. And in general, there was no change about her or her mental condition from what Dr. Tufts had previously seen. She reported that Lindsay's insight was still poor. This is something that we'd seen since, I think, at least November over attribution to the medication for things like depression. And she said that everything was appropriate across the board. The plan was to increase that amitriptyline, since she seemed to tolerate it well. Now, throughout all of her treatment, Dr. Tufts recommended that Lindsay attend therapy because she said the best response to something like this is both therapy and medication.

[Brett]

So that was the end for today. And, I mean, I think the defense has a lot of work to do on cross examination because the story they've told this jury was not reflected in Jennifer Tuft's care of Lindsay. It seems like Jennifer was very thoughtful. She was working with her. She was there whenever Lindsay needed her to be there. She's trying to tape her off of drugs, particularly the ones that have bad side effects. When Lindsay reported side effects, she moved from that to another thing. The problem with Lindsay is she's also doing her own thing out there. I mean, she is going to these other providers and getting other medications, and the Ativan is something that she just won't let go of now. It is interesting. I mean, this is a Doctor who saw her the day before this happened. And just Lindsay is not reporting any of the things one might expect to see in someone who is going to have a psychotic event the next day. Doesn't mean she didn't have one. But we're not seeing the evidence of it necessarily. And I'll just say this, I don't know that the American medical system or any medical system provides appropriate psychiatric care. But if anybody got it, Lindsay did. I mean it's hard for me to think there are all these people out there getting good psychiatric care and Lindsay fell through the cracks somehow. I just don't think that happened.

[Alice]

She lived like down the street from her parents and her mom and her sister. She had like a lot of family around who were all involved. She had a husband who was like very involved, like knew about her prescribing, you know, her worries. Seemed like was asking the right questions. I think he was the one who insisted on an in person meeting instead of just virtual Dr. Tough. Seemed to really care and really know Lindsay's history. And I was very impressed with her testimony in terms of like the type of doctor she was to Lindsay.

[Brett]

And that doesn't mean Lindsay didn't have a psychotic break, wasn't in psychosis the time. It could just be that there just really was no helping her. Given various things that are combining here, that may well be the case. But unless we get some bombshells on Monday during cross, I am now no longer thinking this is an example of someone who was failed by medicine and that's why this happened. I just, I don't see that in how she was treated and the treatment she got. So honestly don't know how to say this much.

[Alice]

I think it's very important. Like not only was she not ignored, like they, they asked all the questions every time it's in the notes like do you have suicidal ideations? They never stopped asking these types of questions. But very importantly here whether it was the best care whatnot, all these things. The important thing which I think a lot of people do not get in the medical system and certainly not in mental health is they responded to everything she was saying. If she said she had anxiety, they immediately the care plan was adjusted for that. If she said she couldn't sleep, everyone around her was immediately adjusting to what she said. Now a lot of this has to be self reported. They can't hear the voices in her head that she never reported. They can't know what she's going through. They can't know whether she slept the Night before. So they do have to go on what she's telling them. But I will note what I've seen across the board for her treatment so far. Pre murder. Every time she brings up something they tried to address may not have worked. But they didn't say, well, good luck. Like you're not tapered off. Let's try this. Let's do this instead. You're not sleeping. Let's do this instead. Hey, do therapy. Make that appointment right now while we're sitting here together. Let's see that you can make that appointment together. Let me review your notes and see how you're doing over there. You went to McLean. Okay, this is how it's happening. Hey, you found another doctor. Just letting you know, best practices. You should have one doctor look through all of these things. So as with all medical care, especially with mental health, the doctor is not the. Honestly, not even the one in the driver's seat. You have to be a willing patient in order to go along with the plan. And she was not ignored. This was an incredibly responsive team of professionals she had around her. Did it seem to be helping? No, I agree with you, but I don't think it's for lack of trying.

[Brett]

All right, guys. Well, this has been a long one, but these were two days pretty full. Hopefully, going forward, every day is going to have a lot of really good information that we actually want to spend some time on. Wouldn't that be nice? And maybe that's what's going to happen. Maybe this trial is really speeding up and now we're really getting into the nitty gritty. We know that Lindsay Clancy killed her kids. That happened. Everyone has admitted that she described it in detail, including what she told her children as she killed them. The question remains, what was her mental state at the time? And I think we're going to continue to get more information on that as we move forward. Interesting. I am sure we're going to hear from Dr. McAllister or therapist McAllister about the therapy sessions. Interested in that. And of course, we'll hear from the South Shore folks who treated her. All right, well, look, it's been long. We're not going to share any emails today just because we've gone so long, but thank you so much, those of you who've been sending them. They've been incredible insight from so many of you. We really appreciate it. If you have thoughts on this case, shoot us an email prosecutors podmail.com@professionals pod for all your social media, join us on the gallery where the discussion is going crazy on this case. Follow us on Instagram TikTok all of it X at prosecutorspot. If you want to watch us record these early, ad free and pretty much in live real time response to this this testimony happened a few hours ago. You can join Patreon and watch us record these. You also get the edited episodes early and ad free. You also can get episodes early and ad free on Apple subscriptions and you can watch edited videos of us record these. If you go and join our substack the True Crime Times, Google the Prosecutors True Crime Times, you'll find it. No problem. Glad to see so many of you there. And obviously there's also a lot of really great articles on there too that you can read. All right, Alice, anything else you want to say before we sign off? I know we've already said a lot.

[Alice]

No, we're really getting into the meat of this. I'm really interested to see cross examination on Monday and as always, we'll be here to recap it for you guys.

[Brett]

All right, guys, well, it's been a pleasure as always. We will see you soon. But until then, I'm Brett.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Brett]

And we are the prosecutors.

[Alice]

Hello.

[Brett]

Hey.

[Alice]

That is. That is. I don't forget. Oh, we call him Allison. I was like, what do we call him? Not Britney. Poor other children of ours. Only Britney's name really has stuck. But he's in a stage where he greets everyone with, hey, hey. It's very funny. It's very funny. Yeah. Okay. What a day. What? What a two days. We could have recorded yesterday, honestly.

[Brett]

Yeah, it's going to be long episodes.

[Alice]

I know. It's okay. We got. That's why. That's why I figured if we do it tonight, people have time to listen to it over the weekend.

[Brett]

Honest. I mean, look, if it weren't for Sophie, I'd wear the same shirt every day. That's true.

[Alice]

That's true.

[Brett]

I can't get away with that, apparently, cuz some people pay attention to that kind of thing. But yeah, no, it's. It's true.

[Alice]

Like.

[Brett]

All right, all right.

[Alice]

I don't know. I. The boy Sam.

[Brett]

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[Alice]

Shut up.

[Brett]

Titanic. I'm the king of the world. And so much more for Showtime's press nothing. They're free 24. 7. That is so effective on Pluto TV stream now pay.

[Alice]

Never.

[Brett]

When she said I don't dance now I make money moves. That was a mission statement for a whole new generation. Respect.

[Alice]

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