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- [00:00]
The Zebra
Most people would rather remove a nest of irate hornets than search for auto and home insurance. That's why the zebra searches for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can Compare. Today@thezebra.com I think I'll wait inside.
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Alice
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett, and this is the Prosecutor's Legal Clues. Welcome back to the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice, and I'm joined, as always, by my wonderful co host, Brett.
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Brett
Wow, Alice, that's so nice of you. You're never this nice.
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Alice
I'm never this nice.
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Brett
I'm worried.
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Alice
And you shouldn't be worried. The reason is because you're not actually the most exciting co host I have today. Today we are joined by Skip Foster. Welcome, Skip Foster.
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Skip Foster
Thanks for having me.
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Alice
Skip is with Hammerhead Communications, which is a PR crisis communications firm in Tallahassee. And back in 2000, he was the editor of the daily newspaper in Shelby, North Carolina. What brings us to Shelby, North Carolina? Well, many of you know that one of the cases most dear to our hearts is the Asha degree case. She walked out February 14, 2000, and has not been seen since. And Skip today is no longer a journalist, but obviously with communications. And he is actually the spokesperson for the Dedman family, who has been the subject of some warrants in the Asia degree case. And so, Skip, welcome to our show.
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Skip Foster
I'm honored to be here. Y' all got a great show with a fantastic reputation, and Brett is indeed wonderful.
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Brett
Well, thank you, Skip. I appreciate that. It's nice. It's nice that someone appreciates me. So, obviously, this is a little unusual. We have talked about this case. We have given updates on the warrants that were served on properties that are owned by people who are now your client, who you're.
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Skip Foster
You're.
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Brett
You're a spokesman for. You're representing. And I am. I am curious, what made you decide that you wanted to talk to us about this case and to give the deadman side of the story to us?
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Skip Foster
Yeah, so I. I did a lot of research, and I wanted to find a podcast with high reach and high credibility, someone who I knew wouldn't just accept what I had at face value, nor would they open fire with Uzis just because they can. Right. And so y' all are pros, right? You done this before, and, you know, your willingness to hear this family story and to, you know, vet it and to ask me questions about it and then share it is really the. I felt like the perfect venue I mean, with that.
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Alice
So you have been, you know, retained by the Dedman family, and they have been subjects of warrants that have been executed in this case. But currently where we stand, there have been no charges filed in the Asia Degree case. The Asia Degree case remains an open case to this day. She has not been seen since she left home. I think I said February 14th, February 13th, going into the night, into February 14th now, 25 years ago. So obviously when you become, you know, part of a case through warrants that have been unsealed, there is information in these warrants that are now public, but of course, they're not full information, but they are part of an ongoing investigation. All to say is those of you who are listening right now, the case is still open, but we have some information that is out in the public. And of course, the Dedman family name, including the family members, are named and mentioned in these warrants. So, you know, it is a bit unusual, I will say, especially as lawyers, we typically don't have witnesses or maybe more than witnesses speak out before anything official has been done in the courts. So, you know, why now?
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Skip Foster
Well, so look, this has been going on since September. And just to give you a little bit of my background, because I think it's highly relevant here, and you mentioned it, you alluded to it at the top. Alice, My part of my newspaper career was spent as the editor of the Shelby Star, which was the very small but mighty daily newspaper there in Cleveland County. And so I was there in 2000 and we had a staff of 20 journalists in our newsroom, which seems kind of crazy these days for a small paper like that, but. And so this became a part of my life, right? We. We had reporters that were walking the, you know, the search party lines that were. That were going up and down Fallston highway looking for clues and evidence and trying to find anything they could about her. We were reporting every, you know, lead that came up. You know, newspapers are always have that little bit of, hey, maybe we could even beat law enforcement to the punch here and find some big clue. Always, of course, you know, willing to work with them. And so I had a lot of, you know, I've had a lot of stake at this, a lot of lot at stake regarding this story. I want Asha found. It was a part of my life. And so when these initial warrants came out and we're pushing a year ago Now, September of 24, I started talking to my old Shelby friends. There's a lot of them. And eventually I talked to the attorney for the family. And he said, I think these guys need some help. And I think if you go through and we start looking into the evidence, there are at least the. The what's been included in the affidavits that are attached to the search warrants, you're going to be pretty surprised. And so that was the beginning of looking at the case, talking to the family and doing some of my own research. And the result was, I think we've got a problem here. And I think I know what has. What has led us to this, where we are, how we. How we had this problem.
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Brett
And I'm looking forward to your presentation on this. But just to remind people of what was in those affidavits, there have been two search warrants, as you said. The first one, I believe, was in September of last year, and then there was another one in February of this year. And as we have said before, you always have an affidavit with those. And they tell a story. Now, it is the story of the. Of law enforcement's view of the evidence at the time. It can change. It's often incomplete. It often does change, but it is what they sort of think they're seeing at the time. And what they're doing is they're laying out their probable cause, their reason for thinking they're going to find some relevant evidence at the place to be searched. And so oftentimes you can learn a lot from that. And in those affidavits, I think there are probably, I'll say, four categories of evidence that they lay out and I'm interested to hear you address. So one of them is a vehicle that was owned by the Deadmans, I believe, a rambler, American Motor Co. Rambler, which may or may not match a description of a vehicle that Asha Degree was seen being pulled into by one witness. There are some text messages between the family that some people have thought are suspicious. There's an individual who was at a party with one of the Deadman daughters and claims to have heard her make some incriminating statements. And there's some DNA evidence that may or may not link to the Deadman's and a person who is related to the family. So I think those are sort of the four categories of evidence that they point to in the affidavit. Am I forgetting anything? Am I missing anything?
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Skip Foster
No, I think that's about right, yeah. And then there's some selective inclusion of polygraph, polygraphs as well. So we'll talk about that.
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Brett
So with that, that is what the police have put out and they have called the Deadman parents. I mean, essentially, there's Roy Lee Dedman, there's Connie Dedman, and they are the parents of three daughters, Lizzie Grace Dedman, Sarah Dedman, and Annalee Dedman. And in those warrants, the police refer to the parents as suspects, and they mention the girls. So that's sort of the information from that perspective. It's the only story we've heard up to this point, and now we're hearing from the Deadman's perspective and their side of things. So walk us through your view of that evidence, your opinion of that evidence, and whether or not you think it. It holds up to scrutiny.
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Skip Foster
Right. So the. At the highest level, this is actually a very. A situation that's very similar to one that happens in newsrooms. And there's an old saying, you know, don't let the story get in the way of a good headline. Right. Oftentimes in newspapers, newsrooms, we would get a tip or we would start chasing something that you have to resist the urge as a journalist, and it's not easy, and I have failed at it before, to start to see every fact as matching the theory of the story you're writing. Right. And if you really fall head over heels sometimes, you'll start ignoring information that actually doesn't fit the theory, and you'll start including information that doesn't fit the theory either. And so, remember, we're talking about, in Shelby, a highly emotional case. And the 25th anniversary of her disappearance came up in this. This February. So you had warrants issued in September of 24, early February 25, and really right around the same time as the Valentine's Day anniversary. And so Asia degrees, name recognition is higher than the Vice President's. In Shelby, everybody knows who she is. And so that creates a lot of pressure for law enforcement. And I think that's the backdrop of what I want to talk about. So I want to start with the Rambler, because the vehicle that is mentioned in these affidavits is really central to law enforcement's theory of the crime. Broadly speaking, the theory is the Rambler, driven by one of the children, struck Asha, and somehow from there, mom and dad helped cover up this hit and run or hit and whatever. Right? And so this was the. This is the theory of the crime. And so that starts with the rambling. And you should Google up, dear listeners, the picture of the Rambler that was seized by police, and then you should compare it to the. The Lincoln Continental that was seen by witnesses, you know, back to this theory. For a second. I'm reading now from item 12 in the, in the search warrants. The investigators interviewed someone at Cleveland County Social Services, dss, they call it in North Carolina. And this employee recalled Roy Dedman being involved in the care of, of someone whose last name is Underhill. And Underhill is important because his DNA was allegedly found in the book bag that was wrapped in trash bags. Right. And so the employee says that they were told that Roy Dedman would send his 16 to 17 year old daughter Lizzie Grace to transport patients in an unreliable vehicle to and from Broughton Hospital in Morganton. So this is so interesting. There's a lot going on there. So Broughton is on the, the way you get from Shelby to Broughton is on Fallston highway, which is where she was both last seen, and then a few miles north a couple years later where the book bag was found. Old unreliable car and then driven by Lizzie Grace. And then what I really want to focus on for listeners is reading this language again. The DSS employee informed investigators that they were told that this happened. So we're really talking about. Now someone 20 years ago who's unidentified and may have been unidentified by the DSS worker told the DSS worker this, who then told law enforcement this. Right. That's a lot of tolls for some pretty sketchy information about. I think it was Lizzie Grace who drove something that was kind of one of my first kind of. Wait a minute now that's, that's not particularly convincing. And then in item Number finally, number 28 in the affidavit, due to the ages of Roy Dedmon and Connie Dedman's three daughters in the year 2000, investigators believe adult assistance from Roy and Connie would have been necessary in the execution and or concealment of the crime. So here is our right. Children in an old dilapidated car hit Asia. Mom and dad helped cover it up. So let's talk about the Rambler. And you've got Lincoln Thunderbird in the affidavit as what the eyewitness saw. A 1970s green, green Lincoln Thunderbird. You should Google that and compare it to a 1964AMC Rambler. I would submit to you that what those two vehicles have in common is they're old, they don't look alike. They're certainly not very similar, although you should judge that for yourself. But you should really look at those two as a comparison. So this Rambler is registered to Dedman according to the search warrant. So we get to some interesting discrepancies between the September and February warrants in the September warrants. And there were a number of warrants for different properties. So it says on February 24, 2000, the ages of the three Dedmon children would have been Lizzie Grace Dedman, 16, Sarah Dedman Capel, 15, and Annaleigh Dedmon, 13. Let me point out now that the DNA allegedly found, and we'll have a DNA conversation here later, was of the youngest deadman, the 13 year old. Right. Okay, so ages are listed as 16, 15, and 13. In the February warrant, there's an item number 18 that reads, on September 10th, 2024, Sarah, that's the middle child, 15 years old, enlisted in the September warrant. Now we're in the February warrant. Sarah was interviewed at her residence about the case. She said she drove an AMC Rambler when she was 16 given to her by Roy, her dad, in 1999. Sarah was approximately 16 years old when Asha went missing. Approximately 16 years old is also known as 15 years old. So this is confusing. The September warrant says she was 15. The February warrant says she drove a Rambler when 16 given to her in 99. Sarah's birthday is in July. She didn't turn 16 until a half year after Asia's disappearance. So if she was 16 when she got the Rambler, it would have been in late 2000 or 2001. If she had gotten the rambler in 99, she would have been either 14 or 15.
- [18:23]
Brett
Now, it seems like. It seems like from the warrant that they're getting that information from her. Is. Is it your contention that the police just got that wrong, that she didn't say she got it 99, or is it just it's been 25 years and she got the date wrong?
- [18:40]
Skip Foster
Well, regardless of what she told them, we know how old she is. So, I mean, if someone asked me, you know, when did you get that first car? Oh, well, you know, I was 16, I think. You know, maybe I got it before my 16th birthday. I don't really remember. But if you're, like, putting together a case, you just look up the person's birthday and you don't say approximately 16. For someone who's 15 and a half when that's the difference between being old enough to drive and not. Right? So that. That's. I don't really get it until we said, has anybody actually checked to see when Roy took possession of this vehicle, when he bought the vehicle? Maybe that will shed some light. And we were floored to discover through public state of North Carolina DOT records and DMV title records that the Rambler was purchased and transferred to Roy Dedman on March 13th of 2000. And this is of course, a month after Asia disappeared.
- [20:30]
Brett
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- [20:46]
Alice
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Skip Foster
So this is a big problem. The car mentioned in the affidavits, it wasn't one of Roy's vehicles. It was the green AMC Rambler, which allegedly fits the description of the Lincoln, which it doesn't, was driven by someone who's allegedly who's 16 years old, but she wasn't. And now the car wasn't even owned by the deadman. So this is a big problem.
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Alice
So skip the 15, 16 year old thing. Just with our prosecutor background, that doesn't bother me that much, truthfully, because we know kids. If you start Learning driving at 15, I can imagine a 15 year old driving even a car that they may not their parents don't give them access to, but they somehow find a way. So that is not as interesting as what you just said, which is that the date of the transfer of the vehicle is a month after Asha's disappearance. Now what you're talking about, that record, that's news to me. That wasn't in the warrant and I don't know if law enforcement has access to it or knows about it. That's a deed, a title transfer, is that correct? Now obviously we know from car title transfers that it's possible to have possession of a car before you actually transfer the title. Most states have some sort of grace period, 30 days, 60 days, whatnot. Do you happen to know where. When the Dedmans or Roy took possession of the car, not the date that's, you know, the transfer of the title, but when he actually took possession of that car.
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Skip Foster
Well, so the, the, the. The title itself lists the purchase date. The, the. Of course nobody remembers the date they bought a car 25 years ago, but every available public record, both the title application from DMV and the registration information from DOT show that the transfer happened on the 13th, the application on the 15th, the action date on the 15th and the purchase date of the vehicle on the 13th.
- [23:23]
Alice
Oh, can I follow up on that then? Do you know if obviously it's been many, many years who it was transferred from? Because I think it's one thing if it's transferred from a dealership, because that purchase date probably holds a lot more water in the sense that when you walk into a dealership, they're not going to let you take possession of a car until you buy it versus, say, grandma's car, Grandma passing on a car, or neighbor passing on a car might, might make that, you know, date transfer a little bit more wiggle room than a dealership. So do you happen to know where they got the car?
- [23:59]
Skip Foster
Not a dealership. This car had been passed around and I've talked to a couple owners of it. Private party. I certainly don't want to get into naming anybody that, you know, got enough people getting their name dragged through the mud on this. But, but I. What I would, I guess I would come back to, Alice, is this is where the 15, 16 thing, I think becomes more relevant. Right. So, I mean, if, you know, why are you buying. The sooner before someone's 16th birthday that they're getting their own car, the less, like, credible that seems to me. Right. And so, you know, you put all of this together and again, it's not necessarily, you know, people get a car for their learner's permit. I understand that, but why change the language from someone who you said was 16 in the September warrants or said was 15. Excuse me, in the September warrants, and now they're approximately 16. Approximately 16. Who refers to a 15 year old as approximately 16? It just doesn't ring true to me. But anyway, every available public record that I can find shows that this car was purchased, was taken possession of in mid March, and we can't find any evidence that anything happened before that.
- [25:25]
Brett
And just to be clear, and I know you don't want to say who the previous owner was, and I totally understand your reasoning for that, but just to be clear, it wasn't grandma or an uncle. It wasn't someone who, you know, they would have had access to the vehicle before they purchased.
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Skip Foster
Oh, no, no, no. It was not a family member or anything like that. No.
- [25:43]
Alice
But it was a private party.
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Skip Foster
And yes.
- [25:46]
Alice
Okay.
- [25:46]
Skip Foster
Yes. So this is a big deal and it's made, I think, a bigger deal because of someone named Mickey Cooper who, in September, after the initial warrants were issued and media coverage exploded in the Charlotte market. And so for your listeners, Shelby's about 45 minutes west of Charlotte, you would take ID5 and then zip off in Kings Mountain on 74, like you were heading up to the mountains. You'd go right through Shelby. So Charlotte TV covers this extensively. People in Charlotte probably know Asha Degree's name as much as a lot of famous people. And so Mickey sees this coverage and he goes to law enforcement because he saw something that night that he had never talked about before. And let me just stop and say, you know, my first question to Mickey was, yo, how have you? Why didn't you go talk about this before? And he regrets it, but he didn't think he had anything new to offer because there had already been a witness that had seen this Thunderbird and that was something that was widely known. So he goes to law enforcement. And this is before I knew him or anybody associated with the Dedman family knew him. His first move wasn't to go try to get fame. He went straight to law enforcement and he told them, hey, I saw what happened that night. I saw the vehicle, I saw Asia. And it was a what he called a two tone Lincoln, Mark four Continental, two tone green, two doors. We talked to Mickey after he talked to law enforcement, we were able to interview him. And he has no ties to the Dedman family at all. Doesn't know them, doesn't know who they are. He actually does know the, what he calls the mama and papa of Asia. That would have been Asha's grandparents. Knows of them, knew them, I think maybe from work a little bit. But he, he told law enforcement it was definitely not a rambler. Those were his words. Definitely not a rambler.
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Alice
When did he first come. I know you said he initially didn't go to the police, but when was the first time that he.
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Skip Foster
September. September of 2024 was the first time that he says he saw he could contribute because he really didn't. The Lincoln had already been something that had been seen. Now he was very transparent. He should have come forward earlier. He totally takes responsibility for that. I'll tell you, one of the things in my journalism business, and I'm sure as prosecutors look for, is, okay, you know, what's the play here? Where's the ax to grind? And I couldn't find one. So it's certainly a credibility hit that he didn't come forward immediately. But then I say, well, is he now looking for fame? Is he looking for money? Does he have an ax to grind or something going on here? And I couldn't find anything else other than this guy wanting to do the right thing, doesn't know the Deadmans, doesn't care about Reward money. He's not interested in anything. But that's.
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Brett
And so for our listeners out there who are not car people, is the rambler a two door?
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Skip Foster
Their rambler is not a two door.
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Brett
And is it, is it two tone green?
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Skip Foster
It is one tone green.
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Alice
So real quick going, going back to Mickey, so what, what he now remembers, it is 24 years later, 24 and a half years later that he's saying this, that he saw two door, two tone green car that night. Are there any closer in time statements where he told someone, even if it wasn't police or he wrote down somewhere. So the first time he's ever said this is 24 years later, is that right?
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Skip Foster
Yes.
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Alice
Did you, you know, this is, this has nothing to do with fame or anything like that. But the first thing for my first question for anyone coming forward 24 years later is you can have the greatest of intentions and even think you have something to offer, but 24 years is a really long time. I can barely remember what I ate for lunch today. So how can you be sure 24 and a half years later what you saw two tone green, two door in the nighttime, how can you trust your memory of that?
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Skip Foster
Yeah, so you can't fully. He's a car guy. This was the crime of the century. He saw a little piece of it. That seems like the kind of thing that it's believable to me that someone would remember and also remember he didn't come forward and say. He not only came forward and said what it's not, he also came forward and said what he saw. Right. So he had both a memory and a kind of negative memory. Right. Of hey, it was definitely not this. So again you start to put all this together and I think it builds some credibility. Also building credibility of the theory that law enforcement, despite best intentions has fallen in love with the theory of the crime is they've never called him back to follow up on that interview from September. There's been no follow up contact and of course his description wasn't mentioned in the subsequent February affidavits. Now, you know we're trying to build a case, not undermine a case in those affidavits. But at some point judges like to see the whole picture and this was part of the picture that was just omitted. Seems to me that that's something worth considering especially since to your memory question, Alice, which is an excellent one. We are about to get into a case of someone else's long term memory that was accepted by law enforcement with.
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Brett
A big bear hub and moving to that. The stuff that you've revealed is obviously troubling when it comes to the car. I mean, the car has been a big part of this. You know, it's funny because in today's society, you hear green car and you're like, well, there's like one of those, you know, in the state. So if you find a green car, that's probably. It seems like maybe 25 years ago, there were still a lot of green cars rolling around. And maybe this one, you know, I.
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Skip Foster
Actually researched this, and I'll have to go back and find it. This was a long. This was months ago. I've just remembered it. But it's crazy how many more green cars there were in this, in built in that period than there are today. It was like a thing.
- [32:55]
Alice
Well, I think. I think something like all cars are now trending towards the neutrals. Like car companies, we make white and black cars because I think color is falling away. So I think you're right about that, and I don't think you're misrepresenting anything about this. But for maybe newer listeners who are not as familiar with the legal system and warrants, I just want to note right now that again, charges haven't been filed and theories within warrants are put in for not reasonable doubt, but for probable cause in order to investigate cases. So I only. I don't. I don't think you've misled anyone in that sense. But there is a story that's being told within a warrant you don't have to put in. In fact, one of the lines in all warrants is this is not all the information within an investigation. But you are right, if there's something so contrary, it should be included. So I just wanted to put that out there because I know oftentimes people hear, well, if it's completely wrong, then the police shouldn't have looked down that road. I'm simply making the point that warrants serve a different purpose than, say, an indictment. An indictment hasn't been filed in this, but a warrant is investigating different leads within it. So the things that you're revealing right now, I agree, would be troubling. Now, what would be more troubling is if then charges flowed from maybe a car that wasn't even owned by the Dedmans at the time. So this is merely an educational point for anyone listening who may not be as familiar with the warrant and the judicial system around criminal cases.
- [34:23]
Brett
And I think the police at this point would say, okay, so maybe car thing shaky, but we Have a witness who says he heard one of the Deadman girls essentially confess to this and confirm the theory that you've been. You've been laying out there. And I believe that that person's name is Thad Melantine. Do I have that right? So what do you. What do you say to him?
- [34:48]
Skip Foster
Well, so the first we heard of Thad was after also after the September warrants came out, and the reward money got increased at that time, I believe, to 40 or $50,000. It's now recently been hiked up to $100,000. And let's put a pin in that and come back to it. So right after the reward money goes up, you have the juxtaposition of Mickey, who is providing evidence contrary to the police theory of the crime. This is not usually how reward people go after reward money, is saying, hey, I think that your theory of the case there, law enforcement, isn't right. Okay. On the other hand, you've got Thad Melantine, who comes forward with this. I would say it's fair to call it a salacious revelation that at a party, a house party, that one of the Dedmen daughters dramatically exclaimed, I killed Asha degree this was Lizzie, the older, and then her daughter, her sister Sarah came in and told her to shut the f up. Right. So I guess my first observation on this before we get into some of the other information on it, is, you know, that's a. That's generally kind of not how people confess to things. Right. Is shouting them in at house parties. It's not a particularly believable story, just in a vacuum. Right. And it is also less believable because presumably there were a lot of people at this party. Parties, by definition, are like, you know, multiple people. And no one's ever heard this before or since. Right. So we were able to talk to Thad's wife. And by the way, Thad has, according to public documents, has lived within 15 miles of the degree home of Shelby, that part of Shelby for virtually his whole adult life. And so, you know, this case has been kind of in his face because you can't get away from it. There's billboards all over the place doing an age progression of what Asia would look like now. And, you know, you can't escape this case. And so anyway, we talked to his wife, Kelly, and they are. Are separated, but are still co parenting their children and getting along well. And remarkably, Kelly says that the first time she ever heard about this from Thad, and she says that any of these parties, they would have been at together that the first time she had heard about this thing from Thad was when he went, when he told police. Your listeners will have to say decide, hey, if I was at a party with my spouse and I heard someone confess to the crime of the century in our community and we got in the car to drive home, you know, would the topic of conversation be, well, hey, what are we going to scream on next on Netflix? Or do you want to get some ice cream? Or might you share that? You know, and if you were too drunk to remember, you know, maybe you wake up in the morning and say, yo, you're not going to believe what I heard at the party last night or sometime. But Kelly says that there was never a time between 2004 and 2024 that this was mentioned to her by Thad. The first mention was that he, Thad, and I'm going to quote from Kelly now, told me, and I interviewed her, told me he was, quote, experiencing some memories and wanted to talk to me about it. He could not remember who else might have been around when the alleged comments were made. Kelly goes on to say, he acknowledged to me that he would have been drunk at the party when the comments were made. He was also very open with police, telling them he drank at these parties and likely would have been intoxicated on the night in question. He told me he felt that he needed to tell police what he was remembering in case it was real. And then this is pretty interesting. Kelly says, I have known Sarah and Lizzie Grace for many years, and I don't believe either one of them could have been involved in Asia Degree's disappearance. I don't believe either of them would keep information from police if they had information to give. I believe Thad has a memory he believes is real, but that is a false memory. She's aware that Thad passed a polygraph, but also believes false memories can escape detection of polygraphs. So Kelly's a smart woman because she's right. And we all know that polygraphs and these warrants are littered with polygraphs. And they're, you know, they're just not reliable. And it's unfortunate that they even are a part of, you know, what we do, law enforcement. However, according to Kelly, told Thad that polygraphs would pick up on false memories. And then she says, and I want to be sure and read this out loud. I don't think Thad has bad intentions or is seeking reward money. He is distraught about this and is only trying to do what's right. So again, back to If I were a reporter, a journalist, I would say that's a credible person I'm talking to. She's not giving me just one side. She's not throwing him under the bus. She's not defending him at all cost. She's given a real balanced take on what's happening. And then the last thing I want to say is, quote, when police interviewed me, I was surprised that they never asked me if Thad had told me what he believes he heard any time since 2004. I definitely got the vibe that police had already made up their mind that what Thad was saying was true.
- [41:37]
Brett
So obviously you've not had the opportunity to talk to Thad, but it sounds like, and correct me if I'm misinterpreting what she's saying, that essentially it's not that he had a continuous memory from 2004 that he's been sort of dwelling on for 20 years. It was more that this warrant comes out about the Deadmans and then suddenly it triggers in him a memory. I don't, I don't want to call it a repressed memory, but a memory that he had not had before where suddenly he remembers this conversation at this party. Is that an accurate description of how she describes what happened?
- [42:12]
Skip Foster
Well, I think that goes a little farther than what she said. Either he had the memory and never told her or it's what you said. So she doesn't really know when he first had this memory. I don't think that came out in our discussion as a more accurate way to put it. But the fact remains that throughout their marriage and ongoing co parenting relationship, he never mentioned it to her until after the warrants came out and he mentioned it. He said that to police and put.
- [42:51]
Alice
A slightly different way whether I can't remember if he said it. He, I think he may have said it and it was in the warrant. There's mention of it being a false memory. So I guess the question framed a different way is was it a false memory starting back in 2004 and he never told anyone because he's like, this is probably a false memory or it might be. And then we reach the 25th anniversary or close to the 25th anniversary, there's movement in the case. He's like, you know what? Even though I've had a false memory since 2004, I should tell someone even if it is a false memory versus no memory. No memory, no memory. Search warrant. In September of 2024, all of a sudden I think I'm remembering something in 2024. It's the first time I'm thinking about this. Is this a false memory or is this really what happened? And I am just now remembering it and I laid those two things out. I'm not saying you have the answer to that, but I think that's, that would be interesting to know because it would be a lot more. I can understand someone not wanting to tell anyone starting in 2004 because they think it's a false memory. Why spread rumors about my friend when she was just drunk and I probably didn't Hear her right versus I remember something for the first time in 2024. This is a similar question to, to Mickey, who didn't come forward at all. I think that's slightly different in that from that version. He continuously had the same memory. That's why he can correct a, to the accuracy of it. I've known this information for 24, 25 years and am now just saying it. You know, other questions as to why you would do that, but I think that's something that would go into the analysis of, of what it is that that is saying. I will say, you know, when we covered these warrants back when they were executed, it's, you know, it's always difficult. I, I witness testimony. This goes to Thad Mickey. Any eyewitness testimony is honestly always suspect. People think that they remember things that they don't. We, the two of us can be describing exactly what we see on the screen right now and it's going to come out different. You know, someone's going to draw a different picture. So a lot of people are always like, I'm not going to believe it until I see it. Honestly, direct evidence is one of, not, not one of our favorites in, in kind of an investigation. But I will say when you have different sightings and the police is trying to figure out what's going on, they're 25 years later, someone says they see a green car. You're right, you know, maybe it's a different kind of green car, but they have a green car. They have this guy who's now coming in. Maybe if it's a false memory. But he's like, look, this is what I remember from that night. There's a lot of smoke all of a sudden, but then I think there's fire. When, you know, you said allegedly. But I think in the warrant it says that there's certainly DNA found on the backpack that had been double wrapped in trash bags and buried some. What is it, 14 miles north of where Asia was last seen, several miles Too far for her to have walked. It was intentionally, obviously double wrapped by somebody and someone dug a hole and buried it. And the only reason it was ever found with no sign of Asia around was because someone was doing construction and hit this bag. Now in that bag, after they un. Double bagged it, they found Asha's backpack and then within that backpack they found items where the DNA was found. I will say what we've talked about so far to me is more smoke. And understand that when there's smoke, a good investigator should follow that smoke until there's nothing left and then abandon it if that is where your investigation leads you. But when you have DNA that is linked to one of the daughters and the 13 year old daughter and someone who is in the, the health care they owned like a health care facilities. So not a family member. But the Underhill individual was an individual who resided at one of the deadman's facilities where they cared for people who needed full time care. That is really interesting. So I'd love to hear about, you know, the DNA and.
- [47:04]
Skip Foster
Yeah, so I have some more things to go through. I'm happy to talk about the DNA. First of all, what we don't know is was the DNA testing done at the time that the backpack was found or is this new testing that was done currently of 20 plus year old evidence? Okay, it kind of, you can kind of read the warrant, read whatever you want into that. If it's the latter, then that causes me to have some doubts about the validity of what was fact. Right. But let's just concede that it was the DNA of a 13 year old and a 70 year old that lived at one of their facilities. My answer to that is I have no idea how that happened and I don't think it's evidence of anything, especially the 13 year old. I mean they found other children's clothing in the book bag. So maybe the bad guy went to a Goodwill and bought a bunch of clothes. Or maybe they bumped into each other at a skating rink. I mean, let's play how many scenarios can we come up with where a 13 year old has a 9 or 10 year old's DNA on them that lived within 15 miles of each other or could have been, you know, I mean, so I don't know. I don't know. We don't know what Underhill was doing. We don't know any of that. We don't know the reliability of the DNA evidence itself. We don't know how much other DNA was found. What if seven other children's DNA was in that backpack? We haven't been told. We've been told there's others that we don't know about yet. But you know, I think it's a pretty thin connection absent pretty much any other evidence. So we now we know that this car wasn't used and we, we don't. We've got some third hand DSS thing about Lizzie Grace driving. It's Sarah that's driving the Rambler in one thing, but it's the youngest whose DNA was found. So what, they were all, you know, clowns in the vulture wagon kind of thing. So I don't know, Alice, I, I don't, I, I.
- [49:24]
Alice
Let me ask this direct question. Anna Lee. It was Annalee's DNA. Did Annalee know Asha?
- [49:30]
Skip Foster
No. So none of them did.
- [49:33]
Brett
Did she, Would she have had any interaction with Underhill?
- [49:38]
Alice
Annalee?
- [49:39]
Skip Foster
Not that I know of.
- [49:41]
Brett
Because I'm just trying to, you know, initially. And you can't speak for him. He's not here. I know the Deadman's attorney in some of his statements he sort of hinted at. Look, as you said, we don't know what Underhill was doing, but it has nothing to do with the Deadmans. And obviously if you have a transfer situation, if there's some reason that he could be involved in something and you have transfer. Did Annalee, did she work at those places? Did she ever volunteer? Is there anything like that that you know about?
- [50:12]
Skip Foster
Not that I know about. And as the youngest that she would have been the least likely to do that and certainly wouldn't have been driving as a 13 year old. So, you know, it's this theory of the crime becomes pretty fuzzy when you know Lizzie Grace is the only one of driving age. Annalee's the one with the DNA. Sarah, who is 15, approximately 16, is the one with the Rambler. You know, I can't figure it out.
- [50:45]
Alice
So there was a, you mentioned a shirt, a New Kids on the block shirt found in the backpack. Am I correct that the DNA was found on that shirt? I could be wrong. I thought it was. Let me just ask this.
- [50:57]
Skip Foster
I can't remember if it's. There was a shirt in the backpack and DNA was found or if it was on the shirt. I can't remember. I can, I'll. We can go check that out.
- [51:06]
Alice
Okay, well then I'll just ask this question.
- [51:08]
Skip Foster
We don't know the shirt.
- [51:10]
Alice
Okay. I was going to say is that does Anna Lee or anyone in the Deadman family remember that to be their shirt? And I don't necessarily mean that they gave it to Asia, had it. But like you said, could they have donated a shirt and it was bought by somebody? Do they remember that at all?
- [51:25]
Skip Foster
They don't. They don't have any memory of that. And, you know, that would be a great thing to. I mean, they don't know. You know, they wish they did.
- [51:34]
Brett
And that question actually brings us to some text messages because, yeah, as you mentioned, Lizzie is sort of, maybe because of that memory by Thad, she's become the focus of a lot of this. And there was a warrant for her icloud account, and a lot of text messages were recovered from that. And one of the exchanges was about this shirt. And you know, that that wasn't. I think. I mean, I have some of them in front of me, Sarah, saying they think it's our shirt. It's not her shirt. Her mom said it wasn't hers. Sarah says, I don't remember that shirt. I'm scared, though. Dad is probably going to be a huge suspect. So obviously they're struggling with this whole shirt thing, but they also say dad's going to be a huge suspect.
- [52:20]
Skip Foster
So what I would ask your listeners to do is to just put on your. I'm scared to death of being of. Of law enforcement coming after me. And law enforcement is telling me that they got our dad cold. They're doing what law enforcement does and should do, which is trying to get people to tell them things that people don't want to tell them. And so if, you know, Lizzie spent five hours under police questioning in Texas, and you know, the tactic was, look, we know your dad did this. We know your dad did this. Well, so if you've heard that for five hours, then you're going to say, I'm worried. Dad did this. Right. Law enforcement's been telling me that all of those texts, if viewed through the lens of scared daughters who have been, you know, interrogated intensely, particularly Lizzie, Grace, if viewed through that, I think all makes sense. And what then was left out? And we went back through their phones and right when all this was happening, here's some texts that were not included by law enforcement. Sarah, take a deep breath. Everything is going to be okay. We have not done anything wrong. Annalee. I know. Just stressful. Lizzy. I can't believe this new theory. Like, what the hell? So, you know, look, that's. That's not okay. Those texts are very different from what was included. And they were, you know, sequential. Right. They were a part. They were with. They were a part of these Exchanges that were in the. In the. In the affidavit. So, you know, I. I don't. I don't think those texts are evidence of anything but frightened sisters worried that their dad is in trouble based on what law enforcement has been telling them.
- [54:41]
Brett
Along those lines. You mentioned that interrogation in Texas, and I think at the end, Lizzie says something along the lines of, if my dad's involved, he's involved, but I didn't have anything to do with it. What would you say about that statement?
- [54:55]
Skip Foster
I think it fits exactly what I just said. Hey, Lizzie, you know he did it. We know he did it. Why don't you just give him up? We've got the evidence, Lizzie. We know. All you gotta do is tell us and we'll let you go. But we need to know where your dad hid the body. We've got the evidence, you know? Well, okay, if he did it, he did it, but I didn't have anything to do with it. That's completely plausible explanation for that. And I'm. I'm an Occam's Razor guy, right? In the absence of everything else, the simplest explanation is true. And I actually think that's the simplest explanation for this whole exchange. Not, oh, well, yeah, somehow I know dad did it. That's just not. It's not what she believes, and it's not what she meant when she said that.
- [55:43]
Brett
And obviously, a lot of searches have been executed in this case of a lot of different properties. Are you aware of any. Anything that's been found as a result of those searches?
- [55:52]
Skip Foster
No, I'm not. So they've seized a lot of stuff, and there was nothing from the. That was seized in the September warrant, that was mentioned in the February warrant. Nothing has been released. So there's. There's been nothing new. A couple things back to polygraphs that they did omit. And this is remarkable to me, and I'm not. You can tell I'm not a polygraph guy, but if we're going to use them, let's, like, be consistent, right? So law enforcement polygraphed Sarah right after they told her about the drunken party confession. And what law enforcement told Sarah after that polygraph was that she had passed it with no deception. Okay, so this is the person that, at the drunken party, heard her sister confess to the crime and said, shut the F up. This is the person who had the Rambler, and she passed. Also, Connie Dedman was polygraphed by law enforcement. This is the mom. This is the suspect, as she's called in the warrant. And she Also passed. So the, you know, there are a lot of polygraphs in here. Those two were not included in what was mentioned. And again, I don't want to. You know, this is not Keystone Cops. I know exactly what these guys and gals in law enforcement are going through. I've been through it before. The police pressure, the urgency to solve a case, and you just get blinders that you shouldn't have. And nobody thinks to go back and check the registration and the title stuff. Oh, well, it's his car and it's an old car and it fits what we're doing. And so I get it. I'm not, you know, this isn't about humiliating these guys. But if you've read Reddit, the Asia degree Reddit thread, the Deadmans have been convicted by the kind of true crime community by people in Shelby, and they finally have authorized me to speak out. I've been wanting to do this for a while, but they got a lot of fear. The state is powerful and they fear retribution, and I understand that fear. They fear that if law enforcement doesn't keep coming after them, maybe the state will come after their livelihood. Right. They're worried about these things. And it's a shame because this is, look, this is super thin evidence. And if you take the Rambler away, we've got a kid's DNA and a resident in a rest home, and that's really it. And that's not evidence of anything. So I have a lot of empathy for them. Look, maybe law enforcement sitting on some mountain of stuff, you know, that we don't know about, but I. I don't know what it could be. And I think these folks. I'm glad you are allowing their side of the story to be told. I think they deserve it.
- [59:10]
Alice
Thanks, Skip. I mean, I will say this. You're right. This investigation appears to be ongoing. There have been no arrests made. There have been lots of warrants in this case. And we don't know how this particular, these two warrants and the Deadmans fit into the investigation. But I completely agree with you that armchair detectives online who are jumping to conclusions, who don't know the mountain of evidence and how everything falls in has led to a very disturbing culture of witness intimidation, of, like you said, online doxing or ruining people's lives when the police need warrants in the investigation. It's a very powerful tool that police have and we want them to have in order to be able to investigate. That is a separate thing from whether online warriors, you know, armchair warriors, get to make their own indictments. That is very, very disturbing. The court of law needs to work through the judicial process. And I will say, having read these warrants, they don't give me pause in terms of the police are trying to do their job. There are lots of warrants that they're doing. But the second part that you said that the Deadmans are facing, you know, online convictions, rule by mob, that is very, very concerning and something we constantly warn true crime listeners away from. Of course, we all want justice, but justice is not jumping to conclusions about, you know, convictions without the court of law.
- [60:44]
Brett
And I'll say this. Ordinarily I would be hesitant to even have this conversation in an ongoing investigation like this, but law enforcement did make a conscious decision to release these warrants. I mean, they made this very public. Doesn't seem like they made any effort to seal these. They named the Deadmans as suspects. So I certainly understand why the Deadmans would want to have their side of the story out there, because they, law enforcement certainly presented their side of the story and done it in a very public way. And it is. And if. If they are not involved, then, yeah, I mean, the collateral consequences are significant. So I can certainly understand why they want to speak out about this and. And why they want you to do that. Let me ask you this. I mean, I don't want to go through all the text messages because you're not the one who sent them. And I don't think you could necessarily explain what somebody meant in every single one of them. But one of the things, sort of the through line for this that I think a lot of people saw is it seemed like the sisters were talking and often saying things about their father. I want to protect him, but we got to live our lives. He's going to be a huge suspect, all that sort of stuff. As we sit here today. Would you say that the Dedman family is united on this?
- [62:06]
Skip Foster
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, our. Our call to talk about whether to take this step was all five members of the family. So, yes, absolutely.
- [62:21]
Alice
They're not warrants and warrants or the affidavits. And just for everyone to know. Usually those are sealed when there's an ongoing investigation. So to have it unsealed is actually a step that you have to go to the court to unseal it. This was not, not that I've been told, a docketing error, because if it were a docketing error, you can fix it immediately and it remains unsealed. So that's why.
- [62:44]
Skip Foster
That's why we know that oh yeah. And there were a truckload of warrants. I mean, they had warrants at six, five or six different places. And you know, this reward money has gone up now, which, you know, glass half full, if you're the deadmans, is. Yeah, they don't have it. And they're trying to, you know, drive people to remember, you know, things. And the glass half empty as they're trying to, you know, push the ball over the goal line. But I, I, I mean, look, it's, it's, I don't like those rewards going up. I mean, look, there's nobody, there's no, they're. Anyway, I, I think I worry about. One of the reasons we wanted to get out is because I don't want someone, especially with all these details now. I mean, you can come up with a memory and you got enough details to. And it's why I, you know, I think Mickey is so much more credible than Mellon Time. He's providing a counter narrative. Right. He's not going to see any reward money. He's getting them farther away from solving the crime. He went straight to police, he didn't go to the media. He didn't come to the denman's attorney. We just bumped into him, literally bumped into him outside the courthouse. And we would have never even known he did it, that he'd made this statement. Right. So anyway, I really appreciate Yalls time and this was just how I hoped it would be. Good, tough, fair questions, but also a chance to, you know, to provide the other side of the story, which I think is hopefully compelling to your listeners.
- [64:30]
Brett
And I'll say this, Skip, you know, one of the reason we were willing to have this conversation is you've been following this case for a long time. And I think one thing that all of us can agree on is we want it solved. We want haº to be found.
- [64:44]
Skip Foster
Yeah.
- [64:44]
Brett
But we want, we want the truth to be out there. We don't want it to be corrupted in any way.
- [64:49]
Skip Foster
Yeah. I would never do anything that I thought was hurting. The chance of finding out what happened. Right. That's my number one priority. I believe that's what I'm doing now. You know, is it possible I'm wrong? Sure, but I don't think so. I'm very confident that this family had nothing to do with this and that we need to get back to finding out what happened to her. And I want to encourage law enforcement to not make the mistake I've made as a journalist, which is to fall in love with a theory or A story when not necessarily all the facts matched it. So I hope that happens.
- [65:37]
Alice
Well, Skip, thank you for coming on and taking our questions as well. Like you said, we appreciate you coming on, telling the deadman side of the story. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we sign off for the day?
- [65:53]
Skip Foster
No, other than just, you know, I appreciate what you said about the keyboard warriors. Some of the language is. It's really frightening. And of course, that's like, well, welcome to the rest of the world too, but, you know, have an open mind and. And don't be so quick to. To judge. So that's all I would say. I appreciate what y' all did.
- [66:16]
Alice
Well, thank you for that. I think very, very important reminder because we want people to be able to come forward in all investigations. Of course, in Asia's case, but in all investigations, and when we lose the ability to come forward because people are afraid of, you know, keyboard warriors, of facing, you know, an online mob, that. That can be very troubling for law enforcement's ability to call these types of cases. So thank you, Skip, for spending time with us today. And, Brett, is there anything else you'd like to add before we sign off?
- [66:47]
Brett
No, just if you do have information, remember, there is a reward. But if you have information, make sure you contact law enforcement. If you want to reason, you don't want to talk to law enforcement, you can always talk to us if you have this information. We have. We have two people who come forward 25 years later who may have information in this case. So as we often say, there are people out there who probably know something and don't even realize they know it. So please, you can always share it. You can always get it vetted. Maybe you hold the key to solving the case, right?
- [67:22]
Alice
Well, guys, this is a case that we are invested in. A should agree. It's been 25 years, and we truly hope that the family gets answers soon. But until next time, I'm Alice. And I'm Brett, and this is the prosecutor's legal brief.
- [68:13]
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