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The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
00:53:12
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- [00:00]
Alice
It's 2025 and a new year means brand new opportunities.
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Brett
And for a lot of you out there, I know you've been thinking about.
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Alice
One thing over the holidays and that is starting your own business. But you have so many questions like.
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Brett
How do I get started? How do I come up with a brand? How do I even sell stuff to people? And what am I even going to sell now? Take a deep breath. Shopify has got you.
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Alice
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- [00:24]
Brett
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Alice
And running easily with thousands of customizable templates.
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Brett
You don't have to be a coding nerd or a design geek to get this done. All you need to do is drag and drop. Shopify also helps with the details like shipping taxes and payments from one single.
- [00:43]
Alice
Dashboard so you can focus on the important stuff like growing your business.
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Brett
Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
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Alice
Sign up for your $1 per month.
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Brett
Trial period@shopify.com truecrime or go to shopify.com truecrime to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com truecrime.
- [01:10]
Alice
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett and this is the Prosecutor's Legal. Welcome back to the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice and I'm joined as always by my stately co host, Brett.
- [01:47]
Ivan Bates
Stately. It's a wonderful word. Doesn't apply to me and I'm just going to shut up because we have such an awesome guest. No one actually wants to hear from me.
- [01:55]
Alice
I mean, this is actually true in this instance because what we are really excited about. I know you guys have been waiting for this. We have the famous. He calls himself infamous. I'll let him do that. Ivan Bates, who is currently the state's attorney of Baltimore. You've heard his name in many contexts. I don't know how a person of his stature is talking to lowly Brett and myself, but we are so excited to have you. Ivan, thank you for being here.
- [02:22]
Brett
Wow. Thank you, Alice. Thank you, Brett. First of all, I'm just honored to be here. You know your. Your podcast, a lot of people listen to it. I've had opportunity to listen to it. You are very intelligent. I love the way you break down the cases. I love the way that you look at it from a prosecutor's point of view. I love the way that you educate the listener. So I want to thank you for what you two do.
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Alice
Thank you so much, Ivan.
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Ivan Bates
Thank you appreciate it.
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Alice
Truthfully there. So we have recently discussed one of your filings. Those of you who don't know, he's obviously now the new state's attorney in Baltimore. And he filed the. The motion to withdraw vacature in the Adnan Syed case. But that's not all he is, you guys. This man has done it all, seen it all. We have so much to learn from him. I've been something that, you know, our listeners, we have lawyers and non lawyers who listen, but they all care very much about, you know, the rule of law and about getting justice for victims. This is something you have spent your entire career pursuing in so many facets. Can you give us just kind of a brief overview of how what drove you to become a lawyer and the path that you've been on that ultimately leads you to your current position?
- [03:37]
Brett
You know, I definitely will. I've had a pretty unique view. My father was in the military, so I moved from location, location. I remember in eighth grade, I grew up in Hampton, Virginia. And we had a test, and on my eighth grade test, I said I wanted to be a lawyer, but they came back and said I wasn't smart enough and I should be a brick mason. So I kind of allowed that to drive who I was. I eventually went to the United States army after high school. And I never forget when they sit in this big room. We were in the Hampton Coliseum, and they said where I was going, United States Army. And everybody was laughing at me. And so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go to college one day. So I went to the United States army and I had a lieutenant who just finished college. And then I had a sergeant major who had fought in Vietnam. Been there 30 years. And I didn't understand why the lieutenant was the one giving us the directions. And he clearly did not know where he was taking us. And I need the sergeant major because I felt like the sergeant major is going to make sure we lived. And so he said, look, you know, you're smart. You need to go to college. After that, I think that really changed my life. I was tired of digging ditches, taking orders from everybody. I applied. I went to Howard University in Washington, D.C. loved it, loved it, loved it. It gave me what I needed to go ahead and be successful. I just need to have belief in myself. Once I did that, it taught me a lot about who I was, my history and Thurgood Marshall. I'd heard of Thurgood Marshall. It was a blurb in my life. But. But Howard University made Him, someone that I looked up to, him and Vernon Jordan. And I wanted to be a lawyer. I went to William Mary College of William and Mary. I graduated. I worked and clerked out in Los Angeles for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. When all the craziness went on with OJ Simpson, I was out there that summer. I then, you know, I passed the bar. I was blessed, passed the first time. And I clerked for a judge in Baltimore named David Mitchell. I moved to Baltimore because I had an aunt who lived here, was 75 and didn't have any children. I wanted to go back to California to work for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or someone, but my mother asked me to come take care of my aunt. I was his law clerk. The state's attorney's office and the public defenders both reached out to him about giving me a job. And he told me I was gonna go be a prosecutor. And so I was a state's attorney in Baltimore City for six years. I did all types of cases. From there. I became a criminal defense attorney. I had bills in the state's attorney's office, paid peanuts. Those law school bills were pretty expensive. Those loans came to do and I loved it. You know, I had a case where I argued with my former, my former boss in front of the U.S. supreme Court. When the last cases that Sandra Day O'Connor listened to, I then started my own firm, had a lot of great cases. I represented Sergeant Alicia White and Freddie Gray matter. I also played a major role in exposing the gun trace task force and the corrupt police officers. I ran in 2018 to be the State's Attorney of Baltimore City against Marilyn Mosby. And I lost. I needed to lose because there's a lot that I needed to grow and mature so I could be prepared for that position. Freddie Gray and being Alicia, Sergeant White's attorney showed me that when the world is against you and you feel the law is on your side, trust yourself and follow the law and you have to do the right thing. And then I ran again in 2022. A lot of that had to do with our eight year old daughter back then when she was six six. A six year old daughter. And I wanted to be able to play her, to play in Baltimore City. Either I was going to move out the city into the county like so many people, or else I was going to do something. So I went back to the office that I love and I've been there since January 3, 2023. I love this job.
- [07:23]
Ivan Bates
So you mentioned the Freddie Gray case and that's. That's a good one to talk about. Obviously, for those of you don't know. Tragic case. Black man in Baltimore who was arrested. He died under sort of mysterious circumstances after a ride in the back of a police van. And it's his name joined a long list of names that people can recite about police misconduct. And it was a case that generated a lot of controversy, a lot of protests around the country. And you decided to represent one of the police officers who was actually accused in that crime. How did you make that decision? And what did you. When you saw sort of the world against you, as you said, did that give you any pause about entering the fray in that case?
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Brett
You know, it really did. You know, people think about difficult things in life, and, you know, yeah, we had a difficult decision in Adnan, but it was nothing, nothing like representing Sergeant Alicia White. You know, I went to Howard University, hbcu. So a lot of my friends, when they found out I represented Sergeant Alicia White, boy, I got called every name in the book by my friends. And so I was able to figure out who my true friends were. But for me, it was very important because I'd watched the criminal justice system treat a number of African American men the negative. But also, I didn't think that it was fair that it would treat a police officer negative just because they wore a blue uniform. And so for me, I really believe that the legal system and justice is blind. I talked, never forget. I got that call, I think May 1st. And the same time, Marilyn Mosby, the former state's attorney, was announcing the charges. The War Memorial Steps. I get a call and this woman is crying, and I listen to her, and I tell her to come in. A Sergeant Leisha White. I ask her a story. She tells me a story. I ask her a story of. Now I'm asking questions. She gives me, you know, more information. Then my law partner and I would go in the room. I said, man, if we take this is going to change our life. People are going to hate us. And so, you know, I explained that this was an important case, but it's just something I felt that it wasn't going to be handled fairly. And I'm really big about being fair. And I just felt that if we stood up for Sergeant Leisha White, I could care less if she was an officer. I could care less if she was black, white, purple, green. I just felt that the legal. The criminal justice system must treat everybody fairly. And that's my big thing. I learned more about myself. I learned more about police tactics. The way Police investigate cases the way the police look at cases. I've learned more about expert witnesses. That case taught me more in my legal career than probably any other case I ever had. And we didn't go to trial. We prepared to go to trial, but we never went to trial.
- [10:07]
Alice
That's right, because what happened for your client?
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Brett
Oh, well, the state realized they were never going to get a win, so they dismissed it. Then the police department was going to bring her up on charges, and they realized they were never going to get a win. Once they saw the evidence, they dismissed it. The, the problem here is, you know, to me it's very similar to Adnan. You decide as the prosecutor, the outcome before you look at the evidence. And they decided the outcome without understanding the evidence that it would take. They didn't realize that you have to hold a police officer accountable when they do something wrong. But you also have to look at how police officers are trained. What did they do? What was their role? And just because something terrible happened, policing sometimes can be ugly. But that does not mean that the officers did anything wrong. Always try to take. Remember that. Because the way you look at police cases is totally different than the way you look at the average citizen's case. You know, at the end of the day, she was vindicated. You know, I think it's pretty interesting that myself, Katherine Flynn is one of my deputies in the office. She represented Officer Nero. Tom Donnelly is one of my other deputies. He wrote our brief. He argued the Parker case, the Porter case, and argued the motion to new venue. They were part of my team for Adnan, and they were also. We all worked together with this here with Freddie Gray. You know, it was a very hard experience, but it was a great experience. One of the best legal experiences I had in my life. It totally shaped who I am.
- [11:40]
Alice
I told you guys that each of his experiences could be probably an entire documentary. And speaking of documentaries, you kind of glossed over one of probably the most interesting things that you had a part in, which is the Gun Trace Task Force. And this is so interesting, everything you're saying about Sergeant White, where each police officer should be treated based on the evidence. Just because you wear a blue uniform doesn't necessarily mean there's always police misconduct. But then kind of on the 180 as well, you were instrumental in uncovering probably one of the most egregious cases of police misconduct through the Gun Trace Task Force, which I believe there's a documentary on that you all can watch. It's called I Got a Monster I think it's like Apple tv, Amazon Prime. I watched it, and you guys, when you start a shot with Ivan Bates, you know, this is going to be a good documentary. And this was truly one of the most shocking cases that you stuck by. So I'd love to hear how this came across your desk. And I think this is a perfect example of showing how justice is blind. When there's misconduct, you call it out. When there isn't, you defend vigorously. But tell us a little bit more about your role and how you came across the gun task trace force task force, and the craziness that then unfolded from there.
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Brett
Yeah, you know, for those of you that may not know, I was a defense attorney for almost 20 years, and, you know, you represent the regular criminal element, but there were some that kept telling me the same thing. There was one particular officer, Wayne Jenkins, he's stealing my money. You know, it was sort of used to be like this, okay, you took my drugs, you took my money. Now you're supposed to let me go.
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Ivan Bates
You.
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Brett
You're gonna take my drugs and my money, and you gonna charge me. So he kind of changed the quote, unquote, the game. Look, you know, be honest. Baltimore's had his fair share of corruption, and so you have clients telling you that. And so, you know, I had a couple rumbles with Wayne Jenkins in the past, and I was beginning. He always was a step ahead of me in all those cases. We had won all the. The suppression motions. It was almost like if he knew I was gonna do, he. He was always prepared. He won a lot of cases that way. But Wayne kind of got in trouble. Had to sit on the sidelines with the previous state's attorney, Greg Bernstein. When Ms. Mosby came in, she pretty much cleared him and allowed him to testify. Once he began to testify, he was in leadership position. Position, he began to lock up a number of individuals, make these great cases. The same time I was doing Freddie Gray is the same time I was going to the jails to talk to individuals to see what Wayne Jenkins was doing. We had begun to get body camera footage, and his unit was the test case. Well, on this one particular piece of body camera footage, I saw that they stopped my client. They pretty much looked like they planted a gun. They went to his house, they broke in, they searched it. And so I tried to get the prosecutor to say, hey, they can't do this. And the prosecutor told me, yeah, we could care less what they did. We're worried about the gun in the car. And I tried to explain that you don't ride around with a gun, you in your visor because gravity you're eventually going to hit the brakes and it's going to hit you upside your head. And so he may be many things but riding around this with a gun. So they didn't believe me, they didn't worry about the video. So I took it upon myself to say, you know what? I'm going to do something. I would just go into the jails and try to take these guys cases for half price. I began to take them, I began to understand what's going on. I had one humongous, one big client. Look, he was, I'll call him the poster child who should be federal. He had a previous manslaughter and a previous drug kingpin convict conviction. And he was quote unquote one of the main drug dealers. Wayne and them stop him. They then the stop was going, they stopped them going the wrong way up a one way street. And when they stopped him, they get his keys, go to his house, next thing you know they recover 8 kilos of cocaine and they get 100 and some odd thousand out of a safe. I go to see him, he was like they robbed me. I had 300 some thousand in my safe and I had 18 kilos. And this is what they did. So I said okay. And so you know, for me once again I'm all worried about the law. When you defense attorney don't, don't worry about what's right and wrong. You worry about the law. But for me that was what I had heard from everybody. I won the motion to suppress and was interesting because when I won it, we filed a Franks motion and Wayne came and testified. When he testified he almost threw the case. I've had probably 20 motions to suppress with Wayne. It's the first time he's like yeah, his window was down, I put my hand in and when I put my hand and head in I did see the drugs on the floorboard. So I'm thinking wait, wait, you're actually admitting to breaking the cartilage in terms of the window and you put your head in the car and you admit that you were going the one way, the wrong way up or one way. And he probably couldn't have gone past you so why would he admit that? But he knew that I knew that there was a Safe that had 300,000 and they only turned in 100. So he wanted to ensure that we did not put that in the, in front of the judge. So we win the case and I tell Wayne Look, I'm hearing you're just robbing people, Wayne. You need to stop. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Like we had almost. We probably by that time had 40, 50 case against each other, but 30 involved in the gun trace task force. I tell my client the feds are going to reach out either to prosecute him or to make him a witness. They reached out about three months later. I had a accordion folder of not only that case, but probably six or seven other cases because I was a prosecutor. So I put my case together like a prosecutor, and when I did that, I gave it to Leo Wise, the U.S. attorney. He used a number of my clients. I convinced them to go before the grand jury. They gave the information, they testified. And Wayne Jenkins is doing 25 years in federal prison. Everybody, every officer who was charged, all nine or 10 of them were all found guilty, and they all went to prison.
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Alice
Right. It wasn't just Wayne Jenkins. I mean, it was the entire task force. Right.
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Brett
I think it was about 14, 15 officers. Look, they were robbing people. At the end of the day, the system has to be work fairly. I always also like to say this. That's not who the Baltimore City Police Department is. That's who a small segment of those officers were. And those officers who break that oath, they need to be in jail because the community needs to know that they can rely on the police. And that's why that was so important to me. We have to do things. I'm a big believer of trying to do them the right way. We may not always accomplish it, but we have to try to do the right way. And for me, that's what that case really exemplified. You know, and look, I was getting beat. It was funny. I would go to court during the day. You terrible. We hate you. You're a terrible person. You're right. You're representing those corrupt cops. And then at night, I would go to the jail. The same people who are yelling, screaming me were at the jail visiting their loved ones. And so, you know, it was such an interesting. That's why I said you had to let it go in one ear and out the other. You know, representing a police officer that you know is innocent and then going after officers that you knew were guilty. Well, look, let's be crystal clear. My client was who he. Who they thought he was. If they would have just taken their time to get him the proper way, he would still be in federal prison because he would have been what the feds call an armed career criminal. So he would probably do almost life sentence. So when you look at it from that vantage point, the system has to be fair.
- [19:29]
Ivan Bates
You talked about earlier how these experiences really prepared you for your current job. I can see that. And I have a question about that same sort of balance that you have to deal with. You talked about earlier. Baltimore can be a dangerous place. It has a reputation as a dangerous place. And a lot of the communities where it's the most dangerous are also the communities that don't trust the police because they've suffered from the violence of crime, but they've also suffered from mass incarceration and those sorts of policies. How do you balance the need to drive down this crime and make Baltimore a safe place versus not falling into some of the old easy methods of police and law enforcement?
- [20:12]
Alice
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- [21:01]
Ivan Bates
Maybe do lead to that mass incarceration.
- [21:04]
Brett
You know, I think, look, when you're, I think being a black male, I look at things from a different lens sometimes. But I also think being a criminal defense attorney, you know, I represented those communities, I go to church in those communities. You know, I lived in a number of those communities. A lot of clients were from those communities. So I, I knew their family, I knew their mothers, I knew their grandmothers and I know the remember when I came into office, we had eight years in a row, 340, 300 plus murders. The year before I got here was 345 murders. And so when I came into office, I said, look, if you're going to carry an illegal handgun, bring your toothbrush. See here we have in the state of Maryland, you know what's called we can invoke a mandatory minimum. If you're a felon and you have an illegal handgun, we can get five years without the possibility of parole. So for me to say that, I said that Because I wanted to speak the language of my former clients to let them know if you're carrying illegal handguns, I'm sending you to jail. Our first two years, we sent 1,723 individuals to jail. Our murder rate dropped from 345 to 201 murders. Right now, as of today, we had 29 murders. As of today in Baltimore City, where last year, this time we had 43. Now, remember, that was our best year, where we had 201. We're headed in the right direction. What I know is that people, doesn't matter if you're black, white, purple, green. People do not want to be around violence. And what we've tried to do, we've tried to go after the right people, meaning those violent repeat offenders. Look, if you're going to perpetrate violence, oh, I will definitely give you the life sentence that you want. You ask for it, I give it to you. But I, There's. I tell people. There's no harder conversation to have than with a mother who's lost her son to gun violence. Her only son, she worked two jobs and he graduated from high school, barely. And he's out here, but what is he doing? He's dabbling, selling marijuana. These fools rob them and they kill him. I mean, I would much rather deal with them and put them in jail for five years about the possibility of parole than give them that life sentence. Look, I'm a big believer of second chances, but I also believe that people pay a lot in taxes. People deserve to have a society and a government that works for them and that puts them first. And so for me, you know, some of those values I think that I got from the south, some of those values my father, a lot of them, gave me growing up. I just really believe that when you do have that opportunity to do right. Look, I'm not supposed to be in this seat. If you look at statistics, I'm not. So since I am here, let me do right, Let me do something. Because my daughter, you know, I want her to be proud of me one day. My father, I've been able to move him from the south up here. He's proud of me. Those are things that when I go into community, when I ran three years ago, I would die for anybody to know my name. So they would, if you know my name, you're going to vote for me. Now. Everywhere I go, people know my name. They shake my hand, they thank me, because at the end of the day, I'm here for a short period. The State's attorney for Baltimore City is going to be here before I am and way after I leave. What can I do to make people's lives better? And if I do a good job, then I feel, you know, I've been blessed. I had a phenomenal career. I made more money than I ever thought I was going to make because I didn't become a lawyer to get rich. But I made a great. I had a great living. I've been able to provide for my family. But now let me give something back to the community because I'm a big believer. At Howard, I remembered we learned lift as you climb, and so that's from Maya Angelou. I believe it's my job and duty to lift as I climb and to have a better community. So I do recognize people believe more what I say and do. Our police departments, under consent decree, they've done a phenomenal job showing the community what's going on. We've working collectively in partnership. And so I just feel that we're moving Baltimore in the right direction.
- [25:08]
Alice
I mean, numbers don't lie. Those are some incredible statistics of violent crime dropping precipitously in such a short time. And like you said, when there are real consequences, real teeth to law enforcement, to the prosecutor's offices, it is a transactional world out there, right? When. When they know that they have to bring their toothbrush, there are the risks and, you know, are much higher. And we are all rational beings, including violent criminals, as you've demonstrated. Well, if one person can do so much in a city like Baltimore, where we know violent crime has historically been incredibly high, there are states, attorneys and DAs all over the country. What do you think is one of the biggest barriers to offices in being able to achieve what you have? Is it willpower? Is it resources? Is it, you know, having enough prosecutors or law enforcement out there? What do you think is standing in the way of every state's attorney or every DA out there being able to, you know, diminish violent crime on their streets the way you have?
- [26:13]
Brett
Well, you look, I think, first of all, I've been truly blessed because I work with some phenomenal people, some great lawyers. You know, I'm also a member of the National District Attorneys Association. I'm on a member of the board. The one thing that I do recognize you, and it's beautiful, because this organization has never made it about politics. I could care less if you're a Republican. I could care less if you're a Democrat. We are here to protect the public. Doesn't matter Whether you're R or D, what matters is we're working collectively. I think sometimes, though, some of the laws that different general assemblies may pass, sometimes some of the policies that some of the office holders sometimes think that they're meant to be helpful, they're actually hurtful. You know, I think we can't get very cute with prosecuting. When you prosecute, it's pretty simple. If you break the law, then you file the law and you're held accountable. Now, does that mean you go to jail forever? On some cases, yes. But on some cases, no. You have to have the discretion. But I think when you constantly see crime happening and you want to look the other way because you want to make excuses for an individual's background and upbringing, that's unfair to other people who are in that community who are struggling. I want everybody. You know, I don't focus on the school systems. I don't focus on anything other than public safety. I think you also have to make sure you make the police your partner. You have to make the U.S. attorneys and the feds your partner. I could care less if we have a huge takedown. The US Attorneys out there saying, look at me, look at me, look at me. At the end of the day, my community that I'm in Baltimore city benefits. And so for that, I think we have to put, I will be honest. The prosecutors that I'm working with in ndaa, we don't have those ego issues. We talk about a lot of positive things. One of the things I think we need to do, we need to go back into schools, law schools, and let people realize being a prosecutor is cool. We need to get them to be a prosecutor. Everybody wants to run to the defense side. I tell people all the time, I loved being a defense attorney, but my heart has always been a prosecutor. Defense attorney was transactional. It was a business decision and I was able to build a business. I learned a great deal. It was great. But learning how to put together a case, learning how to really understand victims and fighting for victims. Victims don't have voices in the system. As long as you put a victim and a victims first. Victims are pretty resilient individuals. They will listen and they are understandable. Sometimes they're going to be disappointed. But if you inform them and you do the right thing by them, you'll be able to make change.
- [28:54]
Ivan Bates
So add non Syed.
- [28:59]
Brett
Can we go now? Can I go now? Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:02]
Ivan Bates
Amen, by the way, to everything you just said. So I'm going to ask you the question you've probably gotten sick of hearing, which is as a private citizen, you had taken a position on Adnan that maybe, you know, his conviction should be vacated and maybe he did deserve a new trial, et cetera, et cetera. And then as state's attorney, obviously, after an investigation, you moved to withdraw the vacature of his conviction. So what changed?
- [29:29]
Brett
Well, a couple things changed. One, when I made that statement, it was right after Judge Welch had ruled that there was ineffective executive assistance of counsel. So I had a peak in terms of what the record said. Then you had the appeals. You had what then was the Maryland Court of Special Appeals is now a Supreme Court issue. I think it was 100 and some odd page ruling. Once you read that ruling, it kind of opens your eyes a little bit. But once I got into the seat and we go through the transcripts and you read things. Look, Christina Gutierrez was his lawyer. Christina Gutierrez, when I was a young prosecutor, you were like, oh, God, I hope to God this is. She doesn't take this case. She was that phenomenal of a lawyer. And then you also have the opportunity to talk to Kevin Yerik. Look, I was in the state's attorney's office when Adnan case came through. I remember sitting in the courtroom when he had the bail review, where half the courtroom was the Muslim community, half the courtroom was the Asian community. The judge I clerked for was David Mitchell, who did the bail review hearing. So I remember that. But I also remember things that Kevin Yerik said that registered with me. We had an open file policy where our state's attorney, Mrs. Jessme, said, look, especially Homicide. Don Giblin was one of the heads of Homicide. Just tell them to come look at your file. And if it's in there, who cares, because we're going to win anyway. That's before body camera and everything else. So things like that made sense to me once I began to look at that. Once I began to look at the transcript. Wanda heard who was the judge. She used to always. She was a good friend. She retired and she did a lot with me in terms of my campaign. And we would talk about the case. Read the transcript. Read the transcript. To stare in the transcript. Well, guess what? You got to read the transcript. And so in reading the transcript, there were things that just I realized, like, for instance, you're looking at the cell phone evidence. The cell phone evidence was clearly mischaracterized. You know, one of the things. And Alex, I heard the podcast. You said steam was coming from my ears. You know what? I wish I could Take credit for that. I will say this, and I'm going to give you background information that nobody else has. I prayed to God this case would not come back. On my life and in my lap, I said, lord, please don't let this case come back. But you know what? God sent it back to me for a reason. And so when he did, I put together the people who I think are extremely intelligent. And one was a gentleman. I'm just going to give the last names, ask them to give their first name. Because part of that, sometimes people get angry. Like, I had threats on my life because of my ruling. And so I'm the elected. I'm used to that. But I like to protect my people. So we'll call 1T. You know, I had T. I had a C. And I had another C. And that was my team. And these were some of the smartest individuals, smartest lawyers you'd ever want to meet. And we talked everything through. We talked about the pros, we talked about the cons. We realized we needed a good look through the file. We realized we were not going to reinvestigate, but we did a review of their investigation because we were not necessarily here to say, hey, we're doing this reinvestigation, but we wanted to do a review. We took our time and we went through everything. We met probably at first it was every other week, then it was every week. Then it was sometime two, three times a week. We talked everything through. Then one of the individuals is a phenomenal writer, and they put a draft, and then people added to that draft, you know, bits and pieces. Then you had, you know, T. He is a phenomenal appellate lawyer. He specifically looked at the cell phone information evidence. When he looked at it, we were like, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? And we looked at it because it totally was not what anybody said. So we had to go three, four, five times because we're like, wait, wait. Okay, Once you understood that. And so we're moving the right direction, we're working on this. We probably spent six to eight weeks planning this out. We knew where we were going to go. Probably a month into this, probably by end of November, December, we kind of had a feeling where we were going to go. But the thing that was the total, to me, it sealed the deal 1000% was when we were able to find on the drive a document that talked to, I will call her S.A. the Speaker of the note. And when we were able to see the memorandum in one of the SIAD review team's folder on the computer all by themselves. I knew exactly what we had to do. And so for me, I also had that, like, I took some time. I thought about. I go to the gym a lot. I spent a lot of time in the gym thinking about what to do, how to do this. And it all, once again came back to Alicia. I tell people, yeah, easy part was like, yeah, you know, this is what we're going to do. But that's not who I am. You know, I make mistakes. I will say this. Based on what we saw, we did the only thing that we could do being the elected state's attorney, and that's to uphold the law. And that, to be honest, was easy. Now people going to be mad. It is what it is. When you become a politician, you're not going to please everybody. But at the end of the day, if I lose this job because I did the right thing, I'm okay with that. But I wouldn't not be okay doing the wrong thing, sending someone into the courtroom. And I went into the courtroom and handled the hearing and doing. And I have no evidence, and there's nothing I can do. I'm never going to do that. And so for me, we did everything the right way. And we felt we wanted to let the world know exactly what everything was going on.
- [35:24]
Alice
And that is what we thought was really unusual. You know, when we reviewed the motion to withdraw the vacature, we said that it would have been just as simple even if you had done all that work to ultimately say in a one line, withdrawn without having to explain, explain your decision. But instead, you wrote this kind of, you know, opus, incredible emotion, detailing every step, which is very interesting because rarely does the public get such an insight into an internal investigation of a prosecutor's office. But also, it clearly puts it calls out individuals for potential very wrongdoing, and certainly not the way that prosecutors are meant to act. So there's the describing to the public what you all did and why you arrived at your decision. But what made you decide to essentially walk everyone through seemingly every step of what you did in incredible detail with such transparency?
- [36:27]
Brett
Well, when I ran for state's attorney the first time against Ms. Mosby, the thing was, the thing to me that was very important was that people just didn't have an understanding or clue about the criminal justice system. And the criminal justice system, for the average person, is a mystery. They see it on television, but they really didn't understand it. I did feel that we owed it to everybody to really understand what the evidence was that we saw. And I Felt that we needed to write and make sure the record was clear. I will also tell you this. We did it the right way in the sense that, you know, I consulted a lawyer from AGC who, who was a former attorney, grievance lawyer, counsel. So I consulted them to make sure that we were not defaming and within the rules. But we also consulted a lawyer to make sure we weren't defaming anybody. Now, the law is the law, and once it's in the court filing and this is what we've alleged and this is what it should be. And I just felt that for so long, everybody had all their feelings, but we wanted to put what we saw, what we saw based on those actual reports, those transcripts, what we saw in reference to memorandums. We wanted to put really what happened from our review of the investigation so that people can make their own decision. Some people are like, yeah, I read it. I still believe he's innocent. That's fine. However, we. I could have easily said, you know, we would draw this. Now everybody has questions. Look, millions of people are going to follow this without a doubt. That will probably be the largest case, the biggest case I will probably ever be a part of in terms of worldwide knowledge. However, I was very important. If we're going to do it, we have to do it right. I'm a big believer that we didn't just do it for us, our office, because our office was sort of demoralized. They need to understand this, the right way to do it as well. And it's incumbent upon me to set the standard. I did a lot of federal work. When you go to federal courts, you better be prepared with your motions or your briefs. You can get laughed out of the room. And I just felt we need to make sure. And I had great, phenomenal lawyers who worked with me, Working with a team that intelligent, who are just that skilled. It was important that the world also see the work that they put out. And so at the end of the day, we wanted to go ahead and answer the questions that people had. We wanted to go ahead and look. But for if. If the previous administration had just said, you know, we're following a vacator, and that was it. I don't know how in depth we would have gone, but they. There were a number of things that they put on the record that we felt it was incumbent upon us to put what our review of their investigation said.
- [39:14]
Ivan Bates
And one thing I really appreciated about the way you did it was you. You took the victim into account, and I know you you apologized to Young Lee and his family about how they had been treated. And I know you've talked about closure. So I guess, I guess I have a couple, just a couple questions as we sort of wrap up. Number one, the Adnan sad case has been going on since 1999. It became famous in 2014. As far as you're concerned, is that case over? Is it done? And I guess the second question, as far as closure goes, obviously the victims, they want closure and, and part of that is knowing that the jury got it right. So did the jury get it right in the Adnan said case?
- [39:54]
Brett
Well, I'll answer that question first. I feel based on our review of everything that the jury got it right. I stand behind the jury's verdict. They took into account the evidence. Look, for five days, five days there was cross examination by not only Christina Gutierrez, but you know, J. Wilds was on the witness stand. So they heard the lies that he said, but they also heard the corroboration of the many things that only he would know if either he was going to be the killer or he was with the killer. There was number of different pieces of evidence. Remember back then, the case, how they did things were different. When you look at the cell phone, you recognize, wow, there was one tower that the cell phone would bounce off of. So it's not like now where it'd be 8, 9, 10 towers and which side the tower where they were all that there was one tower. And so when you look at all those things, Christine Gutierrez spent a large part of her defense attacking Sellers. So in attacking Sellers, it was clear to me, super clear that she had made that argument. The jury took her arguments into consideration. It was also clear that she knew who Bilal was even though she represented him, her firm represent him. But the judge said that everybody waved, you know, there was no way. But they always waived the conflict. So I wasn't here to let it relitigate that. So in my mind, yes, the jury got it right. Now, in terms of the first part of your question, just repeat it one more time so I'll make sure I get it right.
- [41:30]
Ivan Bates
Is the Adnan signed case over?
- [41:33]
Brett
You know, he was placed on 5 years period of probation and he still has the ability to file averted Aaron Corn Nobis it's upon him if he wants to. However, if he files that, then he is the moving party. Every aspect within the criminal justice system that which he's been the moving party, he has not been successful. If he brings us a smoking gun that we've Never seen that totally shows that he's innocent. Of course, we would definitely look at that. We would definitely take that in consideration, and we would do the right thing. However, you know, I did advocate that Adnan be released. And, you know, once again, I think it's also important to remember I do believe in second chances. I believe in earning, especially when you're young. When you're young, I understand the brain development. Now, I still think if you were young and you shouldn't kill someone, you're going to prison. That's just where I am. Because we have to remember the victim's family. But also, a lot of times, when you talk to victims families, they look at young people when they do something a little differently than they look at older people. Here, I think for me, was a gentleman who was young that was stuck between two cultures. You know, fought his first true love, and he did not handle his emotions the way that we handled them in society. And, you know, as the judge pointed out, premeditated. And he made the most horrific mistake in his entire life. So I thought about that. But then I also thought about when you look at his institutional record, he had one infraction in 23 and a half years. And so I thought about that. And then I thought about what would be the plea offering. To me, it would be life's has been all but 40 to 50 years. And here you. For a violent crime in Maryland, you have to do a minimum of half of it. So that had been about a life that had been about life has been all but 45, which is about 23 and a half years. So it's right there. He had family ties, he had community ties. He had. Was. Was, was married. Now, I took all that into consideration. I wish he would have told the victims more. But I did feel it was incumbent upon the state's attorney's office to apologize to the victim, to recognize that we did not put the victim first, we did not put Mr. Lee first. And that was not just, look, I'm the state's attorney now, so it's incumbent upon me to right that wrong on behalf of the office of the State's attorney. And, you know, with a victim, they want closure. I'm never going to unfortunately be able to bring his sister back. And, you know, when you listen to him and the hurt and the pain and his mother, even though it was a different language, you could still feel the hurt and pain in another language. But what we needed to do, we needed to put our arms around him and his family, to let Them know that we were there for them and we didn't. So when we as an office didn't do that, it's incumbent upon us as an office to apologize and make that right.
- [44:48]
Alice
Thank you for representing so many facets of the prosecutor. A lot of people say that prosecutors are just there for the W, but I think just in the last five minutes, you've demonstrated the vigorous advocacy for doing the right thing, but as well as having the compassion of the reality. We want safer streets, and it's not just going to be done by shutting away wide swaths of the population. We need those people to then come back and then change their lives. But especially with the Adnan Syed case as an example. Like we said, this case was from 1999. No one even really revisited it until there was a podcast about it, then documentaries, then kind of this entire movement. And we stand with you that we believe the jury got it right. What wasted resources, it seems, not just for your office, but for all the people, all the truly, you know, victims who could have used these resources. Wrongfully convicted individuals who could have used these resources were poured into who we believe, you know, the jury got it right. And it's created so much angst, so much hurt for the victims. And then on top of that, incredible burdens on the judicial system, on taxpayer dollars, to basically continually re litigate something that shouldn't have been relitigated. This was all done essentially because of true crime fascination. And obviously we're in that space as well. We're also practicing lawyers, but we're also in the true crime space. So from your perspect, you've been a part of documentaries, you've been a part of cases that have garnered national, international attention. You know, on the whole, is all this media frenzy around certain types of cases, because it's not every case good, bad, or how can we be more responsible about it so that it is used for good and we don't have another situation like we saw in Adnan Syed.
- [46:44]
Brett
Wow, you talking about a question. Good gosh.
- [46:50]
Alice
We'll end with that one.
- [46:53]
Brett
You know, I think we as lawyers need to look and try to sometime lead this process. Because remember, when you look at the individuals who had put serial together, they really weren't lawyers. They had never really, especially trial lawyers, had never really been in the court room. When you're in the courtroom, there's some nuanced issues that come about that you understand. Like, for instance, you know, there could be a situation like, aha, they caught this witness in a lie but the lawyer was like that lie don't mean anything because they didn't, they didn't, you know, rehabilitate the lawyer. This, what's going on, this what's happening. And I think what happened is when you have trial lawyers sometimes who are understanding the nuances of the criminal justice system, they're able to educate the community. I do think there's a definite want, need and in place for that. Like with what you guys do, I listen to you guys really break down the case and educate the listener. And that's so important because you talk about briefs, you talk about the motion for vacay judgment. What does this mean? You talk about what everybody's role is. You talk about the evidence. You know what people don't realize? These are individuals lives, real lives. And when you get a life sentence, oftentimes you go on the rest of your natural born life. Today we filed, we announced three indictments in Baltimore for life without the possibility of parole. That means the rest of their natural born life. Their actions were so egregious and so violent and so horrific that they should be in a jail once proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in the court of law for the rest of natural born life. And I think sometimes we lose facts, we, we lose that ability to understand that, but we also lose the ability to understand that there are true victims. And when you're a victim, you lose your, your loved one, the hurt and pain. So I think that there's definitely a space, but I think we have to do it in a way that is empathetic to the victim, empathetic to the defendant and defend his family. Because you may have a defendant that just was abused and violently beaten and just had no hopes in life. And then they hurt people, hurt people. Now that doesn't mean they get a pass, but you're also able to tell that story. But also then you're educated, you're able to educate, whether it's the reader or the listener or the viewer, about the way the criminal justice system works. So I think there's a huge place and a need for these types of, whether it's the podcast or a show. But I think we have to do it responsibly to make sure that experts may are able to articulate some of the nuances that happen in court.
- [49:31]
Alice
Ivan, we could go on for hours, but you, we are standing in the way of you being able to go on a vacation with your dear family. So we will not keep you longer. But before we let you go, I mean we are so thankful for the time you've given us. There are a lot of true crime enthusiasts, but also lawyers, maybe potential prosecutors or criminal defense lawyers. What kind of parting words do you have for anyone listening here of how they can make the world around them better in whatever role they occupy?
- [50:02]
Brett
You and your questions, boy, got to make it count.
- [50:06]
Alice
If I only get you for an.
- [50:07]
Brett
Hour, look, I will come back another time. You asked me what happened.
- [50:11]
Alice
I'll hold you to that, you know.
- [50:15]
Brett
If you'll have me. So, you know, I think it's important. I think for young lawyers, you need to understand and learn your craft. It doesn't matter if you're on the defense side, the prosecution side, learn your craft. Take the opportunity you know, you have to get in the trenches. There's no. If you're going to be a trial lawyer, there are no shortcuts. You're going to go in court, you're going to lose, but learn from your losses. If you're a defense attorney, go to the jail and visit your clients. Spend that time. If they tell you something, look into there and file those briefs and follow those motions. And they probably aren't going to win, but still follow them. If you're a prosecutor, remember your victims, understanding what they're going through. Learn your craft. But when you learn it, don't forget and treat people the way that you would want to be treated. Your family member, God forbid, if something happened to my father, I would be a. I would be a wreck. But I would need that prosecutor so I could trust them that if they did not have the evidence to get, whether it's first degree murder then or second degree murder, I would be able to trust them that they gave everything they had to getting the conviction to hold this individual accountable. And I think when you do that and you treat people the way you want to be treated, you do with kindness and empathy that good things work out for you. I think when you're chasing money, it's never going to be a good thing. I've never in my career chased money. I was blessed. But doors opened. I just happened to be the right place, the right time, but I was prepared when my number was called. If you learn your craft, you treat people the way you want to be treated, your number will be called and it's up to you to be ready.
- [52:00]
Alice
Well, thank you for taking the time to be here. We have so much to learn from you and it has been such a treat just hearing about your experiences. Brett, is there anything else you'd like to ask? I'M sorry. I just get so excited, ask him questions.
- [52:12]
Ivan Bates
The only thing I want to say is you can come back whenever you want. So he just lets you all the time.
- [52:16]
Brett
We'll do that.
- [52:17]
Ivan Bates
We do this weekly. But no, thank you for everything you do and thank you for being an example for prosecutors around the country.
- [52:23]
Brett
Thank you. You know, it meant a lot to me when I heard you two say that you felt that, you know, we had given you belief back in the criminal justice system. That was our hope and goal, that people would see that prosecutors do things the right way. And prosecutors are the ones who look, in the old west, they wore the white hat, and we still want to wear the white hat to do the right thing by the community. So thank you. I really appreciate what you're doing. I really appreciate listening to you. You guys do a really, really good job. So thank you.
- [52:52]
Ivan Bates
Thank you.
- [52:53]
Alice
Thank you so much. And you as well, will continue to follow your career and see you back, but to let you get to your vacation. Well, guys, you heard the man, the myth, the legend here. We hope he is in fact back very soon. But go read his incredible motion to vacate wish to withdraw the vacature in the Adnan Syed case. We've told you that and we've posted it. There's lots of other great work coming from his office, but until next time, I'm Alice.
- [53:21]
Ivan Bates
And I'm Brett.
- [53:22]
Brett
And I'm Ivan Bates.
- [53:23]
Alice
And this is the prosecutor's legal.