The Whistleblower

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Protocol – Episode 4: The Whistleblower

Introduction

The Protocol is a six-part podcast by The New York Times that delves into the intricate and contentious landscape of medical treatment for transgender youth in the United States. Episode 4, titled "The Whistleblower," released on June 5, 2025, focuses on the explosive allegations made by Jamie Reed, a former case manager at Washington University's Transgender Clinic at Children's Hospital. This episode navigates through Reed's claims of malpractice, the ensuing political and legal battles, and the broader implications for transgender healthcare.

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Jamie Reed's Allegations and Background

Jamie Reed emerged as a pivotal figure when she filed a 23-page sworn affidavit with the Missouri Attorney General's office in early 2023. Her affidavit accused Washington University's Transgender Clinic of harmful practices towards transgender youth. Reed's background as a progressive, queer woman married to a trans man lent significant credibility to her claims.

Notable Quote:

“At the very beginning, I immediately could see that there were a lot of gaps. So in medicine, most places will have standard operating procedures, they'll have policies.” – Jamie Reed [00:28]

Reed described the clinic as "totally unprepared," highlighting the absence of formal guidelines when the clinic was established in 2018. She pointed out that the clinic quickly became overwhelmed with patients, many of whom had severe psychological issues such as schizophrenia, OCD, and PTSD.

Notable Quote:

“There is absolutely no way that these patients were in the right mental place to be able to make any long term decisions about their health, let alone decisions about gender, transitioning as a child.” – Jamie Reed [01:47]

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Clinic Practices and Ethical Concerns

Reed alleged that instead of addressing the underlying mental health issues, doctors prescribed puberty blockers and hormones without the informed consent of parents. She recounted instances where doctors allegedly "bullied" parents into consenting to treatments.

Notable Quote:

“Parents said no. These doctors would push and push and push and push... I feel like I have been bullied into saying yes.” – Jamie Reed [02:19]

Frustrated by the lack of response from hospital leadership, Reed resigned and subsequently filed her affidavit, believing that state Republican officials would take her claims seriously.

Notable Quote:

“I believe that they are going to do their job.” – Jamie Reed [02:58]

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Immediate Political Response and Legislative Action

Reed's whistleblowing triggered swift political action. Missouri Senator Josh Hawley initiated an investigation, leading to the introduction and passage of Bill 49, which banned healthcare providers from prescribing gender-affirming treatments to minors.

Notable Quote:

“Missouri is moving forward with Governor Mike Parsons' law banning transgender care for minors.” – Jamie Reed [39:56]

The bill's passage was influenced heavily by Reed's allegations, though parents and patients contested her claims, labeling them as political rhetoric.

Notable Quote:

“We believe that what she's saying is right wing rhetoric.” – Laura Edwards-Leaper [04:36]

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Public Reaction and Parental Backlash

The episode highlights the deep divisions within the community. While conservatives quickly embraced Reed's testimony, many parents felt betrayed, asserting that the clinic was essential for their children's well-being.

Notable Quote:

“We [the parents] know the whistleblower... We feel blindsided and betrayed by what Jamie has done.” – Laura Edwards-Leaper [09:16]

A poignant moment occurs when Reed meets with Laura Edwards-Leaper outside the courthouse, where a parent confronts her about the inaccuracies in her affidavit, particularly concerning a case of alleged liver toxicity caused by treatment.

Notable Exchange:

Azeen Qureshi: “This is a PR nightmare for you. And you're lucky I'm not the kind of person to sue.” [33:21]

Jamie Reed: “I reported what was reported to me by the nurse.” [35:28]

This confrontation underscores the personal toll Reed's actions have taken on families and the contentious nature of her claims.

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Media and Legal Proceedings

Following Reed's testimony, The New York Times' journalist Azeen Qureshi conducted extensive reporting, obtaining internal documents that both corroborated and challenged Reed's allegations. The publication of these findings intensified the debate, leading to protests outside the Times' offices and further legal challenges against the bill.

Notable Quote:

“We went to Missouri to see how this case would play out in a courtroom.” – Austin Mitchell [05:31]

The judge ultimately upheld Governor Parsons' ban, allowing it to take effect amid ongoing court battles.

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Broader Context: Nationwide Trends and Legal Landscape

The episode contextualizes Missouri's ban within a broader national trend, noting that by 2023, 21 states had enacted similar bans on youth gender medicine. These legislative moves were often justified by claims of insufficient evidence supporting gender-affirming treatments for minors, a stance that echoes Reed's own assertions.

Notable Quote:

“Each side claimed to be acting based on the science and accused the other side of being ideological.” – Narration [41:54]

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Personal Reflections and Ethical Implications

A significant portion of the episode delves into Reed's personal journey. Despite experiencing intense gender dysphoria and considering medical transition herself, Reed became disillusioned with the clinic's practices, advocating for evidence-based care over what she perceived as ideologically driven treatments.

Notable Quote:

“I still do not see that... the best way to help these kids is to less focus on this. We're telling children you're leading, you're in charge.” – Jamie Reed [25:49]

Her testimony not only challenges the existing medical protocols but also raises ethical questions about consent, the role of parental authority, and the influence of social factors on medical decisions for transgender youth.

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Conclusion and Implications for the Future

Episode 4 of The Protocol provides a nuanced exploration of the heated debates surrounding transgender healthcare for minors. Through Jamie Reed's whistleblowing, the podcast sheds light on systemic issues within medical institutions, the politicization of healthcare, and the profound impact on families and individuals. As the legal battles continue and more states enact similar bans, the episode underscores the urgent need for comprehensive, evidence-based discussions to navigate the complexities of transgender youth healthcare.

Notable Quote:

“I am at peace and have so much more calm and sense of self on this side. I feel like a human being again.” – Jamie Reed [19:28]

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Looking Ahead

The episode concludes by hinting at the "Cash review," touted as the world's most extensive evaluation of transgender healthcare, promising to further illuminate the debate in the next installment of the series.

Notable Quote:

“Next time in Part five, the Cash review.” – Narration [42:00]

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Final Thoughts

"The Whistleblower" serves as a critical examination of the intersection between medical practice, personal ethics, and political influence in the realm of transgender healthcare for youth. It highlights the polarizing nature of the subject and the profound consequences of whistleblowing in a deeply divided society.

Transcript

[Austin Mitchell]

Tonight, local and state investigations are underway.

[Jamie Reed]

At one of our region's premier hospital systems. Washington University's transgender clinic at Children's Hospital is at the center of a whistleblower investigation. This woman claims children are being harmed. In this 23 page sworn affidavit, she outlines practices by doctors and medical professionals at the center that many are calling disturbing and more seriously calling acts of child abuse, including children.

[Austin Mitchell]

In early 2023, a woman named Jamie Re Reed made headlines when she filed an affidavit with the Missouri Attorney General's office. She had been a case manager at one of the only youth gender clinics in the state, the Washington University Transgender Center. And in her affidavit, she made a number of explosive claims about the care kids were getting there. Two days later, a first person account of her experience was published in the Free Press and she gave them an interview where she laid out some of her claims.

[Jamie Reed]

At the very beginning, I immediately could see that there were a lot of gaps. So in medicine, most places will have standard operating procedures, they'll have policies.

[Austin Mitchell]

Jamie described a clinic totally unprepared.

[Jamie Reed]

For the moment, none of those existed.

[Austin Mitchell]

She said when she started in 2018, the clinic had just opened and had no formal guidelines for how it should operate. Soon it was facing the same increase in patients as so many other clinics. Often, she said those patients had severe psychological issues, horrible trauma history. In her affidavit, Jamie wrote about kids struggling with schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder, ptsd.

[Jamie Reed]

There is absolutely no way that these patients were in the right mental place to be able to make any long term decisions about their health, let alone decisions about gender, transitioning as a child. And then the next thing you know, we're giving that next patient hormones too. It just kept feeling.

[Austin Mitchell]

And rather than treat those underlying issues, Jamie wrote that doctors were just prescribing puberty blockers and hormones and routinely doing so without the willing consent of their parents.

[Jamie Reed]

The parents said no. These doctors would push and push and push and push and every single visit it would be push some more and they'd straight up tell us this. I feel like I have been bullied into saying yes. And somehow the doctors thought that that was a true good consent.

[Austin Mitchell]

Jamie said that after the leadership of the hospital didn't address her concerns, she quit her job at the clinic. A few months later, she filed her affidavit with the state.

[Jamie Reed]

I just had to go to who is there? And I lived in a state where the people who are in these offices are Republicans. And I believe that they are going to do their job.

[Azeen Qureshi]

And when they do their job correctly, what happens to the transgender center you used to work at?

[Jamie Reed]

I do not believe it can continue to function as you want to close down. I believe it's the only way to actually stop hurting more kids.

[Austin Mitchell]

In going public with these claims, Jamie Reed became the first whistleblower from a pediatric gender center in the US and it wasn't just that she had worked at the clinic.

[Jamie Reed]

She describes herself as more progressive than Bernie Sanders. Okay, so this is not a conservative that we're dealing with.

[Austin Mitchell]

She self identified as a progressive and as a queer woman, and she was married to a trans man. So for opponents of the career, she was an incredibly potent messenger.

[Jamie Reed]

She is way out in left field, and she still, the details of her account of what's going on in there are just really, really gruesome.

[Austin Mitchell]

So the response was immediate. Some people may need to go to jail. Laura. Within days of Jamie coming forward, Senator Josh Hawley from Missouri opened an investigation into the clinic. We needed a counting of every child who was abused in this way. Every child. And a few months after that, Senate.

[Jamie Reed]

Bill 49 bans health care providers from.

[Austin Mitchell]

Prescribing medication or surgeries. Missouri lawmakers who had struggled for the previous two years to get the support they needed to pass a ban, were finally able to push it through. And they did it in part by citing Jamie's allegations. Meanwhile, parents of patients disputed her claims.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

We know the whistleblower.

[Jamie Reed]

We believe that what she's saying is right wing rhetoric.

[Austin Mitchell]

They said she'd become some kind of tool of. The Republicans and civil rights groups filed a lawsuit to try to stop the ban from going into effect. And by August, a hearing date was set to decide whether care could be provided while the lawsuit worked its way through the courts. So what's going on with Jamie and her testifying?

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

So I think she doesn't testify until 12:30, but.

[Austin Mitchell]

And Jamie would be testifying at the hearing in support of the ban on care in Missouri. This wasn't an interview in the Atlantic or a column in the Washington Post. It wasn't a disagreement at a medical conference. This was something totally different. And it was happening right as political opposition was reaching a new high.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

It is this, like, historic thing for someone who was actually working inside a clinic in this state to be coming out against.

[Austin Mitchell]

Was clearly a turning point.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

In the story, you know, and I think a lot of people don't know what to make of it.

[Austin Mitchell]

And so we went to Missouri from the New York Times I'm Austin Mitchell. This is the protocol with Azine Qureshi, Part four, the whistleblower.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

I want to make sure everything is tied up and, you know, rock solid before we publish.

[Austin Mitchell]

And so this afternoon you were on calls, all that?

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Yes.

[Austin Mitchell]

What were you doing?

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

So this afternoon I was checking in with sources.

[Austin Mitchell]

The hearing in Missouri was scheduled for late August, about six months after Jamie had first gone public with her allegations. And in that time, Azeen had been reporting on the clinic where Jamie worked. Because while conservative lawmakers had been quick to seize on her allegations and advocates had been quick to dispute them, her claims had never been fully reported out. And so Azeen had been talking to patients, parents, former employees, pediatricians, therapists. She reviewed hundreds of pages of internal documents she'd gotten from Jamie, as well as some documents and medical records from parents, and she was getting ready to publish her story. From her reporting, Azine had been able to verify many of Jamie's claims. She confirmed that the clinic was overwhelmed with patients. At one point, they were getting four or five new calls a day, about the same number they got in a month when Jamie first started. She also confirmed that many of the kids coming in did have complex psychiatric issues and that the clinic didn't always do psychological assessments of patients before providing medical treatment. Instead, they required a letter from an outside therapist. Azeen saw a text message from the clinic's co director. It was sent shortly after WPATH released an update to its guidelines, co authored by Laura and analou, which reasserted the need for kids to have rigorous assessments. The co director said in his text that he worried the clinic didn't have the ability to meet those standards. In her affidavit, Jamie pointed to many instances where she believed this situation had led to patients being harmed. Azeen was able to confirm several of those instances. She also found other cases independently, like a patient who had gone on to detransition, who said she'd been prescribed testosterone after a single appointment without speaking to a psychologist, even though she'd previously been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Azeen sent these findings to Washington University. A spokesperson said they couldn't comment on individual cases because of patient privacy, but said they had reviewed the allegations and concluded that physicians and staff have treated patients according to the existing standards of care. Most of the parents and kids Azine spoke with said that had been their experience and that Jamie's account put that all at risk.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

You know, I was just talking to parents these this weekend who were like the collateral damage she's caused by coming out with her allegations like she just is, you know, unimaginable.

[Austin Mitchell]

Overwhelmingly, the parents who agreed to talk with the zine, many of them part of a parents group associated with the clinic, said the clinic was a godsend. The only place for hundreds of miles where they could get their kids the care they needed. They said the gender care had often resolved mental health issues their kids were dealing with. Some talked about it as life saving, and they said they felt blindsided and betrayed by what Jamie had done. One parent whose daughter had been cited in the affidavit as an example of harm showed Azine her correspondence with the clinic's doctors. The messages made clear that Jamie had misrepresented some of the details of the story, which made it sound more damning. Sorry. What?

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

I also do wonder if some of the parents are going to be there tomorrow.

[Austin Mitchell]

And adding to the parents feelings of betrayal was what Jamie was about to do.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

They're going to feel heartbroken. I know that.

[Austin Mitchell]

And so while we had come to Missouri to see how this case would play out in a courtroom, we first wanted to go see Jamie on the eve of her testimony to ask her why she was taking this unprecedented step.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Step. And I don't. I don't really know how she feels about it. And so. Yeah. So here we are. That's their house.

[Austin Mitchell]

Okay. Shall we?

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Yes.

[Jamie Reed]

Sorry.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

I just got an alert. Transgender care ban allowed to take effect in Alabama appeal panels. Says we just published that. It's just so crazy that this is like all happening everywhere right now, you know, and also here. Hello. Wait, there's a third dog?

[Jamie Reed]

That's only two.

[Austin Mitchell]

Jamie was living in the St. Louis suburbs with her two dogs, three cats, five kids, and her husband at the time, Tiger, who wasn't home. After Jamie got the youngest kids to bed, we took a seat at the kitchen table.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Are you nervous for tomorrow?

[Jamie Reed]

I wasn't as nervous until I talked to my own attorneys a little bit ago, and he reminded me not to talk to anybody if they're in the hallway. That is like protesters or mean people. And I didn't even realize there.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

That might be a. I definitely heard from parents, Jamie, who are like, you know, feel like their kids are collateral damage in your war path to take down gender affirming care in Missouri and America, frankly.

[Jamie Reed]

Those individuals are gonna be the people that are gonna hold onto this the longest. What do you mean? The belief that they made the right choice for their kids the longest. They have to. They wrapped their kid into something and they're gonna be the ones that will never let this go. There will never be a period where they will not personally probably hate every single individual who's publicly stood in opposition to these interventions.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

But also, like, what if their kids are happy and doing well?

[Jamie Reed]

Those interventions didn't exist 20 years ago, and their kid could have been happy and doing well if we gave them a different set of care. If their child had these exact same feelings in 1990, their child would not have had access to this. They would have had access to psychotherapy and potentially could have also ended up happy.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

I guess for Austin, who has not met you before, like you five years ago, would be shocked, right? To hear what you're saying now. You clearly thought you were doing the right thing.

[Jamie Reed]

Yes, but I also thought the right thing was within guidelines and structure. And I thought the right thing was based on really solid longitudinal studies. I didn't know then what I know now.

[Austin Mitchell]

Jamie told us that as she was becoming increasingly disillusioned with what she was seeing at the clinic, she began to do some research online. She learned other people were also questioning the care. Some of them were re evaluating the evidence that had launched this treatment model, the Dutch protocol.

[Jamie Reed]

The Dutch did all of this, basically for this one tiny cohort. How did that jump from there to here? And how the hell did gems open? How did they bring an experimental procedure from a foreign country into the United States to start in a United States pediatric center and not have to have clinical research? Like, this is like clinical research ethics, like 101. And on some level, that's where it all went wrong.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

But Jamie, like the clinicians who have been raising alarms about the rising numbers, the lack of assessment, all of that, still believe that there are kids who benefit from these treatments. And they believe that because they've seen it with their own eyes. And talking about Laura Edwards Leaper, for example, Laura Edwards Leaper is. Does not say that she supports bans on gender affirming care. And so that's kind of where you diverge, correct? Where she. It's not fair to focus on her. There was that whole letter, the. You know, all the medical providers in the US who said, we disagree about a lot of things. Yes, but here's what we agree on. Here's what we agree on. We agree on these bans are bad because it's legislative interference in medical care. And I'm bringing it up because we're.

[Jamie Reed]

On the cusp of this legislative thing.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

And you're like, diving straight into it. I mean, you're already in it, but this feels different.

[Jamie Reed]

What Is the other option. I believe that we have hurt patients. We hurt them. And why would I want to support anything that continues doing that?

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

A lot of people don't agree. Right. And they like vehemently disagree. Like what does it mean then to be harmed if you don't? I, you know, a thing that the parents say a lot is, so where are all the people who are upset? And I, I just, I do wonder that like where, where.

[Jamie Reed]

If we want medicine to be a consumer state and then it all becomes patient satisfaction. Right. That's not what I want medicine to be. Is. I don't do. Is that really what we want medicine to be? Is it all about at the end of the day, is it actually just about patient satisfaction? Like, can I just ask what.

[Austin Mitchell]

What is the other option besides satisfaction that you're pushing for?

[Jamie Reed]

Like actual evidence based care, Care that meets a gold standard of what evidence is.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Do you agree with the folks that you're working with tomorrow on all this stuff? Like, do you feel like you're on the same page with the Attorney General and his team?

[Jamie Reed]

Yeah, I mean, his team is working to uphold a law that I currently support. So yeah, we're on, we're on the same page with that.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Your lawyer has said at a presentation that is on YouTube, I said stupid shit. That the transgender movement poses an existential threat to our culture.

[Jamie Reed]

Well, on some level, I mean, there is queer theory that does want there to be the dismantling of the family and society. I mean, there are some theoretical.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

There's an anarchist tattoo on your calf.

[Jamie Reed]

Yes, yes.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

But you are a person of extremes.

[Jamie Reed]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

I guess I would just be so curious. I know we've talked about all of this a lot, but I would be so curious what Tiger would say about.

[Jamie Reed]

I think on some level you're focusing on one trans individual. He's just.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

I'm focusing on the. On one trans individual who you go to sleep with next to every night and who you know is going to take your kids to the bus stop tomorrow morning and you know, like, who has shaped your.

[Jamie Reed]

And he had the right to make decisions as an adult. Adults get to make choices about their own bodies that are different from children. I don't talk about it much, but it was traumatizing to work in that center. I came home from work in tears and could not fall asleep at night because I knew that the next day we would have a certain patient coming in where the team was in chaos over whether or not they were actually meeting criteria. And knowing that all of my professional assessments are going to be overridden and I would have no ethical say. I am at peace and have so much more calm and sense of self on this side. I feel like a human being again.

[Austin Mitchell]

Can I actually ask a question before your husband comes along?

[Jamie Reed]

Yeah.

[Austin Mitchell]

Just one thing that it just struck me when you were speaking about your own experience while you were working at the clinic and you weren't feeling like a. Like a whole person, you're having to push away, like, who you really were. It just seemed like it mirrors a lot of the experience of trans people when they are young and not able to. Oh, be who they are.

[Jamie Reed]

So sidebar. You might not know this, but I experienced intense gender dysphoria as a child. Some of my first memories were very intense. I was a kid who did not understand why I didn't have certain body parts. I almost medically transitioned a number of times in my life. I bear physical scars from self harming. Experienced really difficult adolescence around it also. So I am not naive to those feelings. And one of the things that came up in the center often was really wanting those kids to get more therapeutic support because they were not getting therapy, they were just getting hormones. So I think it comes down to.

[Austin Mitchell]

Then at this point, Jamie grabbed a notebook and pen on the table and started drawing. On one side of a page, she drew a cluster of dots meant to represent a group of kids. On the other side, she drew just one.

[Jamie Reed]

There's an assumption there that medicine today can figure out who that one kid is and all the others. And the problem that I saw working in the center and this care now is that not only can people not say how they know for sure that that's the one kid that would actually long, long, long term benefit with the least amount of medical harm. They can't even tell me or be clear about how they can identify this person. And then they also aren't trying. So if you could convince me that these centers in the country actually give a shit about figuring out who this one kid is and not just medicalizing all of these other kids. Because the collateral damage right now is it's not this kid, it's all of them. We are transitioning all of. To me, it's almost like a 15 to 1 ratio. We're transitioning medically, all of these kids, with the hope that we catch this one. If these centers actually really cared about that one, then they also need to really care about these other 15 because we should not be medicalizing them.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

So you just don't believe that they will persist in their trans identity into adulthood. You know, Jamie, for the story, I found dozens of parents and kids.

[Austin Mitchell]

Sure.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

And the kids are in college now and studying psychology and have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or, you know, like, they're, like they're just living their lives. I'm just saying, like, in terms of statistically, this diagram that you have drawn with kids that should not have been prescribed hormones and one that should have, it just. I don't know that, you know, that that's the real proportion.

[Jamie Reed]

Again, I just. I don't think that the way to judge the provision of medical care is customer satisfaction. It has to be evidence, longitudinal evidence.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

All right, well, we should probably give you some space. Just. There are so many people that are gonna feel so hurt tomorrow.

[Jamie Reed]

But on the flip side, gender doesn't have to be that serious, though, either. Their kid is not gonna fall apart because they actually experience their natal puberty. It really is not. Really Is not a crisis tomorrow.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

It could be.

[Jamie Reed]

I still don't see that. No. I actually think the best way to help these kids is to less focus on this. We're telling children. You're leading. You're in charge. That does not do well with children's mental health. And I actually think as a. As a society as a whole, we need to kind of roll back this whole. Let the child lead. Children are. No, no, no, no. Like, parents need to step up. And these parents needed to tell their child, even if you cannot have access to this medication at this time, your body is still perfect and whole. We will get you the help that you need. You have support. We are here. You are going to be okay. You can make it through this. Kids need to be taught resilience, and that is not that. They require some intervention that demands that their body not go through its natal puberty. Like, they can survive. It is okay. That dog has probably driven me. Look at these cats. Archie is the one that goes out. Go catch them off, Pickles. Come on. Look, my watch just told me it's time for bed.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Uh.

[Jamie Reed]

Oh.

[Austin Mitchell]

Thank you for letting me sit here.

[Jamie Reed]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Austin Mitchell]

Yeah.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Thank you.

[Jamie Reed]

Thank you for asking. Good questions, too. I. I always appreciate dialogue and I always want to be challenged.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Well, tomorrow will be the real one. Until tomorrow, get some rest.

[Jamie Reed]

No, I will. I sleep well. I have an episode of Star Trek to watch. Good night. Long steep drive back in.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

So are you going to be able to bring that inside?

[Austin Mitchell]

The next morning, Aine and I arrived at a courthouse in Springfield for the hearing. I was told that no recording of any kind is allowed.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

That's why I wonder if they're going to even let our.

[Austin Mitchell]

Our.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Oops, sorry. If they're even going to let our phones in, you know, they might take them.

[Austin Mitchell]

Yeah, they might take them. I'm just going to bring a notebook and. Yeah, my phone.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Let's see what they say. Okay, for now.

[Austin Mitchell]

Well, I'm going to turn this recorder off then. For now. Inside the room where the hearing was being held, the public seating area was full. About 50 people, a lot of them older, sitting on a few rows of benches. There were people wearing shirts that said, God's disciple and God's children are not for sale. One man told us he was there with his church group. Azin pointed to only a few people she recognized as parents from the clinic seated in the front row. Over the next two days, we would all sit through hours and hours of testimony. The state called on expert witnesses who questioned the role of medical intervention. One was an American psychiatrist who was involved in the early treatment of trans adults in the seventies, and he had worked with the Dutch clinicians like Peggy Cohen Ketnes on the first WPATH guidelines that included recommendations for children and adolescents. But in the time since, he'd grown disillusioned with the field and felt that groups like WPATH had become dominated by politics and ideology rather than by scientific process. He said that he now believed the Dutch study was too weak to support medical transition for kids. Another witness was a child and adolescent psychiatrist from Sweden. The country had first begun offering care based on the Dutch protocol, but had recently moved to a more cautious approach and now recommended puberty blockers and hormones only in exceptional cases. He testified about similar restrictions that had recently been put in place in other Nordic countries. Through much of this testimony across these two days, the crowd sat quietly fidgeting, trying to pay attention. That changed when Jamie Reed was called to the stand. People started leaning forward in their seats and whispering to each other. They seemed to know who she was. For over two and a half hours, she talked about her experience, walking through many of the claims she made in her affidavit as the lawyers encouraged her to expand on her account. She said clinicians would pressure parents into treatment by saying things like, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son? She said she believed the rise in demand was being driven by social contagion, that kids were seeking medical care to transition because of what they were seeing on social media or because their friends were doing it at multiple points. People in the audience muttered to themselves and each other about the treatment that was being described. I saw people shaking their heads a lot. At one point, I heard a guy in front of me say horseshit. And at the same time, I saw a parent in the room crying. There was one woman in particular who was clearly agitated by Jamie's testimony. When Jamie was talking about a medication used at the clinic with a risk of liver toxicity, the woman stood up from her seat and left the room. Azeen gave me a look and then followed her out. Hello? Hello? All right, I'm outside. After Jamie's testimony was over and I got my recording equipment from the car, I spotted Jamie standing alone just outside the courthouse.

[Jamie Reed]

I know Azine's busy. I don't want to. I don't want to just skip out on her, but.

[Austin Mitchell]

Well, would you be willing to talk to me for a second?

[Jamie Reed]

Yeah.

[Austin Mitchell]

Okay.

[Jamie Reed]

I can talk to you for a second.

[Austin Mitchell]

Okay. Well, how are you feeling?

[Jamie Reed]

It was heavy, but it's over. Yeah.

[Austin Mitchell]

I saw when we were on or going on that a break earlier in the day before you testified. I saw people were coming up to you. They recognized you?

[Jamie Reed]

I think so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, my face has been out there, so, yeah. Is Azeen coming out?

[Austin Mitchell]

As we were talking, we saw Azeen and the woman that she'd followed out of the courtroom heading in our direction. Sorry, I'm recording, if that's all right. Just to let you all know, the woman stopped a few feet away from Jamie.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Collateral damage. Ruined lives because of lies. So, so sad for me. That's my problem now. That's my problem.

[Austin Mitchell]

This was the parent whose daughter's case had been misrepresented in Jamie's affidavit. It was a case Jamie had pointed to as one of the most egregious examples of harm she had seen at the clinic. She said the teenager had experienced liver damage after being prescribed a drug to block testosterone, and that this parent had then made a kind of threat to the clinic, saying she was not the type to sue, but that this could be a huge PR problem for you. In actuality, Azeen had learned the patient did experience liver damage, but the medical situation had been more complicated than the affidavit had accounted for. And the girl's mother? This parent had never threatened the clinic. When Azeen went to Jaime with this, Jamie acknowledged that she'd gotten the information secondhand from the clinic's nurse. But she said it didn't change what she thought was the most important part of the story. That the kid had been harmed.

[Jamie Reed]

If. I mean, if I can help in any way or answer any questions. I don't know.

[Azeen Qureshi]

I need you to own your truth. Okay? So here it is. I want you to tell me. The liver toxicity patient. This is a PR nightmare for you. And you're lucky I'm not the kind of person to sue. Was that said. Do you know if that was really said by a parent? Do you know?

[Jamie Reed]

This is tricky because I don't.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Yeah, no.

[Jamie Reed]

Do you know.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Do you know it's quoted in your affidavit? Yeah, yeah. Do you have proof that a parent said that?

[Jamie Reed]

It was reported to me by the nurse.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Fuck off. So why do you say it? Why do you put it in your affidavit? As part of your statement. Hi, I'm Jamie Reed. I'm signing this. Own what you wrote.

[Jamie Reed]

And I reported what was reported to me by the clinical nurse, so why.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Would it go in an affidavit?

[Jamie Reed]

Because to me, I believed it was true because it was reported to me by the nurse.

[Austin Mitchell]

Boo hoo.

[Azeen Qureshi]

You believed it was true?

[Jamie Reed]

Was it true? The affidavit is.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Was it true?

[Jamie Reed]

Babe, I cannot.

[Azeen Qureshi]

You have it in quotes. And I didn't say that in quotes.

[Jamie Reed]

Correct.

[Azeen Qureshi]

You have it in quotes.

[Jamie Reed]

Correct?

[Azeen Qureshi]

What means quotes?

[Jamie Reed]

Right? The nurse said that to me as a quote. I quoted the nurse.

[Azeen Qureshi]

No, you don't say you quoted the nurse. You say you're quoting the moment you say you're quoting the mom. This material, this text never existed. Never existed.

[Jamie Reed]

Unfortunately, I don't know that it never existed. I still. I still cannot clarify that.

[Azeen Qureshi]

I can show it to you.

[Jamie Reed]

I understand.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Because you know the last sentence is to. To say it out loud. We do not regret any of the treatment.

[Jamie Reed]

Understand?

[Azeen Qureshi]

And they were life saving for our daughter.

[Jamie Reed]

Okay. Okay. I. I am totally willing to engage in a dialogue if you find this helpful in any way. If this is just frustrating you. I don't want to contribute to your continued frustration. So is there anything. Okay.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Your affidavit.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

Ruined.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Ruined our lives.

[Jamie Reed]

I'm very sorry to hear that.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Ruined our lives.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

And it's a lie.

[Azeen Qureshi]

It's based upon information you didn't have.

[Jamie Reed]

I don't entirely understand why.

[Azeen Qureshi]

I'm not gonna tell you why it ruined my life. Collateral damage. See, what happened is you put this out and there's collateral damage all around Me.

[Jamie Reed]

Me.

[Azeen Qureshi]

I'm collateral damage to you. You're getting your five minutes of fame.

[Jamie Reed]

This is not about fame. I really, truly believe.

[Azeen Qureshi]

How many article. How many interviews have you given to in General, like testifying, YouTube interviews, you know, you know your affidavit has been read, you know, and you know that was the goal.

[Jamie Reed]

My goal is to stop this care. My goal is to stop medically based on a lie.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

No.

[Jamie Reed]

And so if you don't.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Honestly, you never saw my daughter's chart.

[Jamie Reed]

Every single other chart in the affidavit. That was literally the only one. And there's text messages.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Put it in the affidavit.

[Jamie Reed]

You're absolutely right. It was the last one to go in.

[Azeen Qureshi]

And it's a lie.

[Jamie Reed]

To my best of my knowledge, that information was true.

[Azeen Qureshi]

Look where it's gotten to. The best of your knowledge, has now become an attack on transgender youth. Getting medical care, to the best of.

[Jamie Reed]

Your knowledge, should be being prescribed these treatments.

[Austin Mitchell]

The parent shook her head, turned and walked to her car. Jamie headed to her own car and drove off. The next morning, the Times published a zine story about Jamie Reed, the clinic where she worked, and the testimony she had just given in support of Missouri's ban. The New York Times obtained hundreds of documents from this whistleblower which corroborated some of her allegations, including the day after that, advocacy groups criticized the story.

[Laura Edwards-Leaper]

So glad parked a truck outside of the New York Times building that says, dear New York Times, stop questioning trans people's right to exist and access to medical care.

[Austin Mitchell]

Not long after, a few of the parents who Azine interviewed for the story, including the mom outside the courthouse, spoke to a trans rights news site about how they felt Jamie had been given too much of a platform by the Times. The headline of that piece was you betrayed us, Azine. Back in Missouri, the judge issued his order.

[Jamie Reed]

Missouri is moving forward with Governor Mike Parsons law banning transgender care for minors.

[Austin Mitchell]

He allowed the ban to go into effect while the challenge to it continued to play out in Court. In 2020, there were no bans on youth gender medicine in the US in 2021, Arkansas had become the first state to pass a ban. In 2022, Alabama and Arizona followed in 2023, Utah, Mississippi, Iowa, Kentucky, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Indiana, South Dakota, North Carolina, Missouri, Texas, Nebraska, Montana, Louisiana and Idaho, they all passed bans, bringing the total number of states to have passed bans on youth gender medicine to 21. Like Missouri, many of those bans were challenged. And as they were making their way through the courts, many of those bill's sponsors spoke publicly about their belief that letting children medically transition was just wrong. Some called it child abuse. But in making their cases, they leaned on the same argument that Jamie said had convinced her to support these bans. The lack of evidence. At the same time, advocates and providers in the US argued just the opposite that the evidence was strong, saying every major medical group agreed on the necessity of this care. Each side claimed to be acting based on the science and accused the other side of being ideological.

[Jamie Reed]

No doubt at all what the biggest story in town is today, and it is the Cash review into trans services.

[Austin Mitchell]

Is the world's biggest review into this whole issue of trans healthcare. Then came a highly anticipated report out of the UK that cast both sides as ideological. Incredibly damning. It's. I mean, it's. It's insane. And claimed to answer the question of the evidence once and for all. Next time in Part five, the Cash review.