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- [00:00]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
This is an I heart podcast. I truly don't think I've ever had as many events as I do right now. And Nair's shower cream has been not just a lifesaver but a time saver as well. Because I don't know about you, I just can't be bothered with shaving anymore, especially as I've been trying to move house and do a million other things. Nair is the number one hair removal brand and their body and shower creams. Firstly they actually smell delicious whilst working so well to get rid of all of my hair. When I'm tight on time, I use the shower cream in infused with coconut oil and it's also so gentle on my skin. I feel so silky afterwards and it's free of dyes, parabens, phthalates and sulfates. So get ready for summer buy now at all major retailers. Please welcome aboard the Johnson Family.
- [00:48]
Tony Robbins
The whole fam's here for the Disney Cruise. So you know we came to play and listen. The adults are gonna have a ball. First we're chilling in the infinity pool, on to massages at Sense's Spa, then gliding into Star Wars Hyperspace Lounge for a toast. We're even gonna kick back with Mickey on Disney's private island. That's how we get down. Cause Disney Cruise Line is where we came to play.
- [01:15]
John Fry
This is John Fry from ok Storytime. Are you an aspiring singer songwriter? What do these three things have in common? Bitcoin, Fidget, spinners and Beanie Babies. These are three things that you probably all missed out on. But ladies and gentlemen, I am here to ensure that you don't miss out on this. TikTok Live and iHeartRadio are throwing the biggest live music competition on TikTok. Next up, live music and you can catch it all in real time. The semifinals are happening August 25th through August 29th and the hottest emerging artists performing live on TikTok where they're shot at the legendary iHeart Theater stage. So come and support your favorite artist and tune in for the live performances, behind the scenes moments and more only on TikTok Live US. That is the handle on TikTok. TikTokLiveUS.
- [02:02]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut.
- [02:11]
Announcer (Havoc Town and Tony Robbins Ads)
It out from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, app podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:34]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s. The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. Before we begin, I just want to let you know that this episode is actually a collab episode with my other podcast mantra. So if you would like a more succinct, spiritually minded version of this episode to get you started before we dive into the psychology and the research, do check it out, I'll leave a link in the description. But as for our subject matter, today we are diving into a topic that I think everyone has experienced in some way or another, even if you don't always want to admit it. Something that can kind of simmer in the background for days, for months, sometimes years. We are talking about grudges. I'll be honest, and I don't feel great admitting this, but I have held grudges for like a decade, for many, many years. Even after a person is long gone from my life, even after I am sure they have grown and they have matured, as have I. This, there is this lingering feeling of anger and resentment that has stayed and that comes up from time to time. The thing is, I know for a fact I'm not alone. I know for a fact that none of us are innocent of this. Because holding grudges, well, it turns out surprise, surprise, is a lot more universal and human than we think and is linked to some very core human behaviors. So today I really want to ask the question, what are those core behaviors? Why do we hold grudges? What purpose do they serve? And more importantly, all. What do they actually secretly reveal about our emotional needs, our relationships, and the story of our life that we are almost telling ourselves? Because underneath this resentment, underneath this kind of bitterness, there's usually something deeper and quite soft that we don't want to. Don't want to acknowledge. You know, there is a boundary that was crossed. There is a part of you that felt unseen. There is story that you haven't finished telling. And that's why the grudge stays, even when it doesn't really seem to serve a purpose anymore. This part of you that has felt hurt or injured just really isn't ready to let it go because they still don't feel like they have closure. And when we understand there's a lack of closure as a reason for our resentment and as a reason for holding onto grudges, we understand them a lot better and in a more complex way that goes beyond just forgiveness or black and white thinking, you know, this person was the villain, this person was the victim, this person was good, this person was bad. Nothing ever is that simple. When humans are involved and this topic is included, grudges are included in that matter. So whether you are nursing a silent grudge or you're just trying to figure out how to stop feeling this kind of anger towards someone else, how to process the pain, if you're wondering should I let go or maybe should I hold on a little bit longer, this episode is most certainly for you today. Let's unpack the psychology of grudges and why they seem to matter to us. Stay with us. So let's get something very, very clear. What is a grudge really and what is it not? What's different about a grudge compared to a fleeting moment of anger or sadness is the persistence of the feeling. It is this persistent feeling of resentment or malice that has resulted from a past insult, a past offense that actively lingers and does not go away. Psychologically, a grudge involves one core ingredient and that core ingredient is active rumination. That is that for something to be a grudge, we have to be repeatedly dwelling on the offense, repeatedly analyzing it from every angle re experiencing the negative emotions associated with it, for it to have the kind of hold that it does over us. It's not simply I haven't forgotten, it's I haven't forgotten and emotionally I'm still bothered by it. And that's why it feels like it matters. A 2021 study conducted by researchers at York University in England, they theorized that the act of holding a grudge is actually, actually a cyclical process that is characterized by negative emotions and intrusive thoughts that continue to kind of trigger each other and impact our quality of life. Participants in the study, they conveyed that whilst the intensity of the negative thoughts and the emotions may dwindle over time, the underlying negativity connected to that memory or event is always kind of in the background. It is always ready to be summoned, like at any point. So whilst grudges don't necessarily have to be all consuming every single day, there is a negativity there that is lying dormant and is very much ready to be reignited when it feels like, like it's going to serve a purpose. So there are a few compelling reasons why Our mind might default to holding on rather than letting go. The first is that some people just unfortunately have a harder time releasing resentment. It's just in their personality. According to research published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, individuals high in neuroticism, which is a personality trait that's very similar to anxiety, they are more likely to ruminate on negative experiences, making it harder for them to move on or harder for them to reframe those events in a neutral light, meaning that they have a higher collection, higher prevalence of grudges. A similar study also found that people with an insecure attachment style are also more prone to grudges, and also individuals with adhd, particularly people whose ADHD presents itself as through a strong sense of justice and fairness, or who have Rejection Sensitivity Disorder, rsd, alongside their adhd. I was reading about this on Reddit actually the other day, and it's a Reddit page for women with adhd. And there were literally hundreds of individuals talking about small slides from years ago or decades ago that they just couldn't let go of, that they really wanted to. And all of them said it got worse when the ADHD symptoms got worse as well. So it seemed kind of connected to a larger cluster of things that were going on now. This is still an area of emerging research, but it could be one part of the explanation for you if you feel like compared to friends, compared to relatives, grudges just sit heavier with you compared to them. On a more general level, I think the reason that humans in general seem hardwired towards remembering over forgetting is because our memory and our ability to recall specific events, it's not particularly honest or objective. It is highly selective. It is a strategically biased filter. We remember only what emotionally resonates with us. But we of course, also only remember it from our perspective and through the lens with which we originally viewed or experiencing something happening. So there's no way to tell what the objective truth is. Your opinion is always going to be involved. We also tend to remember pain and negative experiences more vividly and more persistently than ones that are positive or ones that involve pleasure. So this is known in psychology, specifically in cognitive psychology, as a negativity bias. Almost all of us have this pessimistic, optimistic whatever you are, there is a part of you, from an evolutionary standpoint, that will always prefer to remember negative things over positive things. Think about it this way. It was much more important for you as an ancient human to know where the poisonous snake lived or to know where the predator lurked, rather than to Know where the berries grew? Yes, the berries are nice and they're lovely. But the snake and the predator, they are the thing that is really going to cost you. This was really crucial for our survival. Our ancestors who quickly learned from negative encounters were more likely to live another day. Of course, environmental information isn't the only thing that's important. Social information is also really valuable to us. So the dangers that may have been present back in, back in ancient times are present in a new form. They're more present socially and through what we perceive as social threats. So if someone wrongs us, if someone does something that really hurts us, that feels not just painful, but threatening, and so it gets tagged in our memory storage system as a high priority. Because it has been tagged that way, it is encoded with a greater emotional intensity. It triggers stronger psychological response and is therefore in the future more easily recalled. Especially when we encounter similar situations or we encounter similar people, or even when we just encounter internal triggers beyond just, you know, memory and the strangeness of our memory systems as humans. Holding a grudge can feel like a vital act of self protection. If someone hurt you deeply in the past, your mind might cling to that resentment as a really powerful psychological shield, but also as an emotional barrier that is designed to prevent future pain. It's often this very deceptive internal declaration that says, if I continue to be angry, it means that this isn't going to happen again because I will be on guard and I will know to be prepared for it. Clinging to the grudge kind of ensures that you don't forget the bitter lesson that you learn from the injustice. And as a result, you continue to be hyper aware of future potential threats. So you save yourself. You stop yourself from being naive, you stop yourself from trusting too easily, and therefore you stop yourself from experienc pain. It's actually quite sad when you think about it. You know, one bad egg, one bad fruit. I think, what's that? What's the saying? One bad bad fruit spoils the whole bunch. One bad human who does something terrible might make you hyper vigilant for the rest of your life. For some, I think it also again helps you reinforce a necessary boundary. The fact that the grudge is still there means that you will never let this person back into your life because you have a constant reminder of how they made you feel. And this can be a very genuinely adaptive behavior in the case of harmful or abusive relationships where, you know, maintaining no contact is crucial for safety. However, the same mechanism can become maladaptive when it kind of Keeps everyone out when it stops you from letting there be new opportunities for genuine connection, for empathy, for positive healing experiences with people who aren't going to hurt you. While, you know, the intention is undeniably perhaps a good one, and it is protective, I think the long term effect can be profoundly self isolating. You know, we do possess a very primal need for justice. The thing that really contributes to this is what we know as the just world hypothesis. Basically, beyond just wanting to protect ourselves, we all kind of want to believe deep down that the world is fundamentally fair and that people generally, they get what they deserve. If they do bad things, bad things will come back to them. If they're good and kind, the world will be good and kind to them. When a profound or seemingly arbitrary injustice happens to us, when someone does something bad and they get away with really shatters this comforting illusion. And that is what causes us to feel even worse and to perhaps question life in a way that's kind of, kind of distressing. You know, if someone does something bad to you and they get away with it, suddenly you're thinking, what's the point of me being good? If they get to be awful and still get a good life, why am I trying so hard to be good? Wouldn't it be easier to just not care about other people? Wouldn't it be easier to just not be good? Obviously we don't all want to think that way. So holding a grudge can be kind of a subconscious antidote to that discomfort. Me holding a grudge, me not forgetting that is their punishment. That means that karma has worked because there is this like lingering thought that I have about them that is sitting over their head. We feel like the world is fair again because somewhere in your brain they haven't gotten away with it. So in some ways, holding a grudge can be a very desperate, if ultimately futile attempt to return the world to how you think it should operate and how, you know, we want it to operate. It returns a very fragile sense of internal order. I think potentially the most deceptive reason and one of the final reasons we hold onto grudges comes from the fact that it provides a sense of control. And that's where all these explanations are kind of leading. When an injustice occurs and we feel utterly vulnerable, that's a very, very shaky feeling. It's a very uncomfortable feeling. And it can make us really again ask some very big questions of the world. How could this happen? You know, how does this person get to hurt me and get away with it? How was this allowed to occur? Do I really have any sense of control? You know, the answer is you probably don't. But if you cling to the resentment and you cling to the grudge, again, it reinforces that perhaps you can do something about it. It's also the same reason why we may replay over and over again hypothetical confrontations or pretend arguments that you might have with this person. These illusions, these imaginations, provide once again a powerful but illusory belief that we are still dictating this narrative. But here's the stark and kind of undeniable reality. We may feel like we're in control with a grudge. We may feel like it's protecting us, we may feel like it's justice. But in reality, a grudge is always going to harm us far more and far more consistently than it's going to harm the original target. It sucks. But the fact is, is that the true pain of resentment is not one that someone else can feel. It is one that we are going to feel the full force of ourselves. And so with that in mind, there has to be a healthier approach to this. Knowing all the reasons that we hold a grudge, despite all those reasons, there has to be something that we can do about it, surely. Well, that's exactly what we're going to talk about. We're also going to talk about again how the resentment and the pain of a grudge does actually physically harm us, and why that's something to be aware of when you find yourself stewing after this short break. My life has been chaotic recently, to say the least. And with so many events going on at the moment, my friends, weddings, my book tour, I'm also moving house. The last thing thing I have time for is shaving. That is where Nair's shower cream comes in because it saves me so much time. And bonus, it also smells delicious. Nair is the number one hair removal brand, so you know their stuff works. And their hair removal shower cream uses natural extracts for its scents. So things like coconut oil, almond oil, lavender, they smell delicious. It's fast, like the length of your shower fast, maybe even quicker. And it's super easy to use as well. It's also, and this is a big thing for me, free of dyes, parabens, phthalates, sulfates and dermatologist tested. Which is probably why it leaves my skin feeling so insanely silky. Here's the other reason I've been really over shaving. I hate when I end up like cutting or nicking my skin and I also feel like I end up missing spots Anyway, so I'm kind of like, what's the whole point of this? But with Nair's shower cream, I have never had that problem. I just need you to try it out for yourself. My friends were actually over the other day and I had some in my shower and they were like, what is this? And they tried it out almost as a joke. But I'm fairly sure all of them left with that on their shopping list because that stuff works. Nairs hair removal shower cream. Get ready for summer. You can buy it now at all major retailers. So easy for a year to go by. And you're in the same place because there's so much going on in the world today.
- [21:13]
Tony Robbins
Hey, everybody, it's Tony Robbins. So the real question is, how do you really get yourself to be in a place where you truly follow through, where you actually get the results that you really want? Listen, you really need to get yourself a coach. You need a professional who's already got results. You need something outside you, someone that's like what a coach does.
- [21:34]
Business Person / Testimonial Speaker
The most successful people in the world have coaches. If I want to play in that league, I have to model what the successful people do, period. Our company ended on 69% revenue growth, which is ridiculous because we're talking about millions of dollars.
- [21:47]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Tony Robbins results coach will get you to where you want to be in health, finances, career, and beyond.
- [21:54]
Tony Robbins
If you'd like to test out one of my top coaches, we will give you a 30 minute free coaching session.
- [21:59]
Announcer (Havoc Town and Tony Robbins Ads)
Go to tonyrobbins.com to get started today. That's tonyrobbins.com.
- [22:06]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [22:20]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look? Completely alien.
- [22:26]
Tony Robbins
Get back, everyone. He's got nuts.
- [22:29]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [22:40]
Announcer (Havoc Town and Tony Robbins Ads)
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:01]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
The devil walks in Abbostown.
- [23:04]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.
- [23:08]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane.
- [23:16]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
Think you could do it. It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying, like, okay, pull this. Until this. Pull that, Turn this. It's just. I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny. I'm Noah.
- [23:31]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
This is Devin.
- [23:32]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
And on our new show, no Such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on over confidence.
- [23:41]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Those who lack expertise lack the expertise.
- [23:44]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
They need to recognize that they lack expertise.
- [23:48]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing. See? Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:03]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Okay, so the question that we have for this part of the show is how do grudges kind of linger in our bodies in invisible but still painful ways? I saw this interview with none other than Miley Cyrus the other day. Super random. You probably didn't think that her name was going to show up in this episode, but here we are. Anyways, Miley Cyrus. She's doing this interview and she's talking about how she has all this rage and she had all this resentment and she had all these grudges towards people who had wronged her. And she didn't let herself get angry about it. She just let them stew. And after a while, she was noticing that there was all this pain showing up in her body, pain that she didn't understand for years. And she realized that that pain was coming from the fact that she never let herself feel the full emotion behind her resentment. She wasn't able to let it go because she hadn't had that release. This is a great example of what a grudge can do. Now, obviously, a celebrity experience is one thing, but she is a real person. And how she explained it resonated with me because so many people feel this way but can't express it. She had the platform to be able to explain what she was experiencing and what she's experiencing. It's called somatization, and it's a term that has been around for over a hundred years, and it describes how our body actually harbors, feels, and is pained by emotions we don't release. I. E. A grudge. I Back to what we're talking about today. There was a paper written about this a few decades back, actually, in the late 90s, so a little bit dated now, but still relevant. And it talks about this exact exact experience and all these instances where medical professionals will encounter someone who has chronic pain, who is suffering, and they'll do all the blood work, they'll look at all the obvious biological signs of stress and of pain, and there aren't any. There is no reasonable explanation for it. But then this person goes to therapy. This person starts talking about their rage, starts talking about their resentment, starts talking about the pain of their past, and their physical condition improves. And these cases of ways kind of shocked doctors because they're like, what are you talking about? Like, surely you must be taking some kind of medication. Surely you must be doing. You must be exercising differently. Something else must be happening. But the thing is, is that they were looking at chronic pain as purely a physical thing. When at times, it can be an emotional thing. When you hold onto a grudge, you constantly replay an offense. And all that rage, all that anger, all that fear and frustration and sadness, it comes rushing back to your body. And so your body is going to respond as if you are in a perpetual, ongoing state of threat. There is this very interesting idea that your body actually can't tell the difference between its imagination and what's happening in real time, or an idea or a vision that you concoct for it and a real offense. And so just thinking about a previous grudge or a previous thing that happened to you that hurt you is equally as triggering as that thing happening to you right now. Because this relentlessly activates your fight or flight system. A very ancient stress response, you start to really feel it in your body. I know when I think back to, you know, a time that I was hurt, I feel it, like, in the center of my chest. I feel it like a balloon that it's getting so big in, like, my chest cavity that I can't burst it, but it won't go away. Like, it's a tightness. It's. Every single one of us can describe this pain. If you think about someone who has harmed you in the past, you feel a sudden tightness in your jaw, you feel adrenaline. You feel this rising in your chest. Like, there are physical reactions to things that we think only exist on an emotional plane. You know, the phrase holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. This is where it is incredibly relevant. In essence, carrying a grudge is keeping your body in a state of stress that it's only meant to be in temporarily, and we continue to keep it in that state for years. You think that by holding the memory of this past offense, you're hurting someone else, or you're making sure they're not getting away with it, but they actually don't know how you're feeling, like you are not actually inflicting any kind of pain or suffering on them because they don't know the only person who is suffering is you. It's experienced solely by you. And beyond these physical impacts, you know, grudges also act as invisible emotional shackles because they involve such a great deal of rumination. This anchors us to a painful past and it actually affects our capacity to connect with new people. In one study published in 2021, research conducted very in depth interviews with dozens of people about the grudges they held and who they felt had harmed them in the past. And they found that almost all of them had seen some lingering effect of this feeling on their current relationships, on their friendships, on their quality of life, and on how much they chose or could trust other people. Many of them also spoke about being trapped by their grudge. This emotional stuckness is often caused by this lack of resolution. You know, if a grievance is never communicated, or if an apology is never delivered, or if it feels unsatisfactory, the wound remains wide open. As humans, we are such weird little creatures in that we hate stories that don't have an ending. We just, we can't deal with it. That's why it's a whole genre of like uncomfortable TV and uncomfortable movies as movies that don't have endings, because it just feels so, like, weird to us, very naturally weird. Holding a grudge is a story that has not ended. That is why it feels so emotionally painful. Even if they have died, even if we haven't seen them in years, that doesn't matter because to us, the wound still feels like it happened yesterday. That's what means we are unable to move on. Often when we experience these emotional reactions of suddenly being angry 10 years later, suddenly feeling a sense of or a desire for revenge months after the fact, when we feel that we can be like, oh my God, I'm so immature. Why can't I just like, let this go? Like, what's wrong with me? Am I a bad person? That's not the right way to think about it. This is actually a very valid and natural human response. It is a signal that a boundary has been crossed, that an injustice has occurred. It's this thing though, that it's not your fault, but now it has become your responsibility. And how you deal with it from here on out actually has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with you and how you want to continue living your life. Of course, this is absolutely easier said than done, especially if we haven't been taught how to do this, especially if there's unprocessed pain, especially if you think there is an ongoing threat. But we do have to learn how to shift this narrative from a grudge being about another person to being about ourselves. And we have to shift our ability to. To deal with a grudge from being like, this person needs to take responsibility, this person needs to feel pain to I need to allow myself to feel peace. And I actually owe it to myself to move beyond this in spite of them. We can start by firstly, like we've spoken about before, letting ourselves be angry. Anger and rage have been painted as such impolite and dirty emotions, like, they're a sign you can't emotionally regulate, regulate, and they're a sign that you know you are just unbridled and you're going to go off at any given point. Actually, letting yourself feel angry is a sign of emotional regulation. Letting yourself just be upset in a safe way is how you stop an emotion from making its home inside of you and staying for decades. I think, especially for women, I wish we would just let ourselves get fucking pissed every now and again and not try and silence what that might mean and not try and silence ourselves because we think it makes us a bad or unhinged person. There are plenty of ways to express anger in a way that is very productive, very healthy, and very safe. Firstly, you can just scream it out. I remember when I was at university, there was this creek behind some of the old dorm rooms, like at my college, on my campus. And at night, like, I have this distinct memory of me and my friends going down there. And I think one of, like, some guy had just broken up with one of my friends. And we. Someone was dealing with some terrible man and some terrible teacher, whatever it was. And we just, all, like, screamed. We just, like, screamed. I hope there was no one, like, walking around there who thought that we were distressed, but we were like, we just got to let it out. And it was definitely like an angry scream, not a fearful scream. And it was euphoric. It felt amazing. Like, it felt like we were high. Boxing classes as well. Such a good outlet. Manual labor. If your neighbor needs some yard work done, that is your opportunity. Chopping wood, raking leaves just like, gives those feelings somewhere to go. Some therapists also recommend, like, full body shaking, where you just let your body go loose and you dance wildly. They say that's a Very effective strategy. You belting out angry songs in your car, ripping up cardboard, smashing ice rage rooms. You got to find your outlet. You have to get over this hurdle of not letting yourself feel the emotion before you can start to consider more complex pursuits like forgiveness, like moving forward, like forgetting. Because you can never forgive if the emotion isn't ready to be let go or hasn't been released. Let's talk about forgiveness now. I feel like I've been dancing around this topic because I know it's somewhat controversial. I said this in our episode over on Mantra, but there is still no consensus within our society about whether it's better to hold on forever. Forgive but not forget. Forgive and forget. Like no one really knows which camp is best. Personally though, I've talked about this before. I think that forgiveness is a form of self care, even if it's not for everyone. For me, I see it as a way to address what is hurting me or what is hurting you without necessarily needing the other person to be involved, not even needing to know that you have forgiven them. Psychologically, you know, forgiveness is a deliberate decision to release resentment, to release anger, to release the desire for retribution towards someone else for your own sake, not for their sake. Because you understand that the burden, I guess, for not forgiving is going to be greater. It's an internal shift from, I think an emotional state that is dominated by punitive emotions like anger and hatred and revenge, to one characterized by more positive or at least neutral emotions like peace, the acceptance of reality, and even in some cases like compassion. Now let's get very crystal clear that forgiveness is not condoning the offense. It is not excusing the person's actions. It's not erasing the memory of the discomfort that they caused. There is a big difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, right? Forgiveness is internal. Reconciliation is external. You can totally forgive someone without ever having to interact with them again. In the cases of abuse, repeated betrayal, ongoing harm, forgiveness is perhaps a possible act. Reconciliation will maybe never be a possible act. That's the real difference here. Because your primary responsibility is always going to be your own safety and your own well being and establishing healthy boundaries. It doesn't mean that what happened was okay, and it absolutely doesn't mean that you have to be friends with this person. It just means that you are allowing yourself to be okay with the fact that it did happen and you're releasing the burden of the grudge. Forgiveness also cannot be forced if you're not ready or if the act of trying to forgive actually causes more distress. It's okay to wait or to focus on other things or other coping strategies first. I think it's irresponsible for someone to approach someone else's pain by saying there is a timeline for forgiveness and you are behind on that timeline. When that person hasn't experienced what you've been through, you may never forgive it all, and that's okay. But it is a gift to yourself if it's one that you feel you're capable of delivering. And I hope you realize that if the time is ever right for you, if you ever want to forgive the other person, they're not going to benefit from that. This isn't a gift for them. Like, again, it's a gift for you. There is this researcher, his name is Everett Worthington. He's a leading expert in forgiveness. And he really emphasizes that the essence of this is about finding peace from the pain of the past, not forgetting that it didn't happen or not pretending that it didn't happen. And research findings will at least tell you it does improve how you're feeling and it can lessen the emotional pain. For example, a 2023 study looking into the effectiveness of an intervention to promote forgiveness randomly assigned 4,500 participants to either engage in exercises of rewriting their own story from their perspective or just to all out try and forgive someone else. And what they found was that the easiest way towards forgiveness is recognizing the role that you did not play in this happening and recognizing that the story was written by someone else and rewriting it or rewriting the ending in a way that feels better for you. And research will constantly say, like, when we do it this way, when we focus on, I don't know whether there was a lesson in that, whether there was meaning for us. When we focus on the fact that we had no responsibility in it. This is significantly linked to lower levels of anger, lower depressive symptoms, lower levels of anxiety, improvements to sleep, less stress, the sense of feeling lighter, all things that I think that we can advocate and that we want for ourselves. It also just frees up so much mental space to focus on other things. And it means that actually the other person hasn't won. They haven't won. By being able to sit in your brain for longer than they deserve and being able to make, you know, a home in your mind, you have won because they have done this terrible thing. You have accepted that you can never understand why they did that. And yet you have still chosen to choose peace. And that means you have won on a whole other dimension. At least I Guess that's kind of how I see it. So I think to give you a quick guide to how we actually do this, I think there will be good days, there will be bad days. First, the most foundational step isn't to force forgiveness. It's just to acknowledge that something happened, and it's to acknowledge that it was unfair and that you do have anger towards it and just consciously kind of respect that that anger needs somewhere to go, and that is completely valid. And next, be honest with yourself. When no one is watching, when no one is around you, do you feel like this emotion is actually making you feel better, or is it making you feel worse? Do you feel like the energy you're pouring into holding this grudge is worthwhile? Is it consuming you? Or is there a part of you that does maybe want to live without it? Maybe part of that is also recognizing what the grudge has robbed from you already. Recognizing this personal cost can also really help motivate you to find an approach that works. When we then start to ask ourselves, what does this grudge represent? Is where we really have those breakthroughs. You know, I've noticed that often a grudge isn't about the event itself, but it's about what it symbolizes. Someone rejects you, you hold a grudge against them, but it's not because they rejected you. It's because perhaps it touches on a deeper story you're telling yourself about your worth, whether you deserve love. Maybe someone betrays you. And yes, that sucks, but the pain really comes from the fact that you couldn't see it coming. And maybe that means that you're not able to protect yourself and that you don't feel safe. Maybe someone bullied you as a child and you couldn't let it go. It's not really about them. It's about the fact that maybe when you were younger, you didn't feel protected and you didn't feel like you could help yourself. There's always something beneath the surface. What is the story that this grudge is keeping alive about who you are, who you are as a person, or who you have been? And here's a layer of forgiveness we often overlook, but this is where it's absolutely vital. We need to also, in some ways, forgive ourselves. When we hold grudges against others, we frequently, I think, also harbor a silent, corrosive grudge against ourselves. We might replay our own, I guess, role in the past hurt. Even though we don't have a role, we might ask very agonizing questions like, oh, how did I let Myself get treated like that. Why didn't I speak up? Why did I trust them when in fact, like this, Self condemnation has no place here? Like, you were not weak, you were not foolish. This criticism towards yourself is getting you stuck not just within the grudge, but it's getting you stuck in a place of self blame that is not helpful. Forgiveness towards someone else requires an act of kindness and understanding towards ourselves and recognizing that you did the best you could with the knowledge and the emotional resources that you had at the time. Finally, and this might sound controversial, I know I'm probably going to get pushback. But ask yourself, if the roles were reversed, if this was me, would I want forgiveness? Would I want someone to understand the reasons or decisions or just plain stupidity that drove someone to do this thing? If I had done this, would I want someone to forgive me? If the answer is yes, it's the easiest answer we can get. Then I think that acknowledgment can make it easier for you to have compassion for that other person, but also compassion for yourself. If the answer is no, that's sometimes just as liberating because it reconfirms that you could never be like them. You could never stoop that low. Because you are moral and kind and responsible and good. And because you possess those traits and they don't, you have won. You are officially the better person, full stop. And so you forgiving them and choosing to move on, that's something that they are now indebted to you for. You are the bigger person, the braver person. You are the winner. And you know what? I get that that sounds kind of egotistical, but who cares? I think whatever it takes to release the emotional burden, you must do it. Grudges, yes, they cost us. They're also universal and they're something that we can't always control. There is some deep, ancient psychology that wants to keep you trapped in a bad thought, in a bad memory, in a bad time. But you also have agency and you have power to rethink whether that is beneficial to you. Rethink, hey, is this actually helping me or harming me and making that decision? You know, as much as I have given you advice and I have opinions, maybe you don't want to forgive someone. Maybe the anger fuels you. Maybe it feels nice. Maybe you aren't dealing with the consequences of this like other people are. And if that's the case, that's entirely okay. I think this is such an intimate and personal kind of conversation because it is going to differ for everyone. But If a grudge is costing you anything, I think it's important to reevaluate whether that's something you want to give up and whether you're willing to pay your dues to the grudge or it's time to let it go. So I hope this has been a nice introduction into how you can do that, into the psychology behind it. I feel you. I get you. There are grudges that I'm still trying to work through. I don't know. I was thinking about this the other day. Like when I was like seven, there was like this group of girls who bullied me as a kid and I like saw one of them the other day and I was immediately angry and I was like, what the heck? Like, that was two decades ago. This person has changed a lot. But grudges are irrational. So as much as I'm sitting here preaching, there is still stuff I need to work on. And so hopefully you understand that this advice is also coming from someone who is imperfect and is struggling with justice. This just as much as you are, but hope we were able to kind of learn something together. You can also share this episode with someone else if you feel like it's something they may need to hear. Share it to your Instagram. If you want to give someone a silent message that maybe you're not over something, just kidding, that's unhealthy, maybe don't do that. And make sure you leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening. It really does help the show to grow, to reach new people. Hopefully this episode will reach more people who need to hear it. Maybe not, maybe it just sticks with us. But if you have made it this far, leave a little emoji down below of what a grudge kind of represents to what it feels like in your body, what it feels like in your mind. What's a visual way that you can kind of deliver that or show that feeling. I also want to thank Elizabeth Colbert, our researcher, for her assistance on this episode. And until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, and we will talk very, very soon. My life has been chaotic recently, to say the least. And with so many events going on at the moment, my friends, weddings, my book tour, I'm also moving house. The last thing I have time for is shaving. That is where N's shower cream comes in because it saves me so much time. And Bon, it also smells delicious. Nair is the number one hair removal brand, so you know their stuff works and their hair removal shower Cream uses natural extracts for its scents. So things like coconut oil, almond oil, lavender, they smell delicious. It's fast, like the length of your shower fast, maybe even quicker. And it's super easy to use as well. It's also, and this is a big thing for me, free of dyes, parabens, phthalates, sulfates and dermatologist tested, which is probably why it leaves my skin feeling so insanely silky. Here's the other reason I've been really over shaving. I hate when I end up, like cutting or nicking my skin and I also feel like I end up missing spots anyway. So I'm kind of like, what's the whole point of this? But with Nair's shower cream, I have never had that problem. I just need you to try it out for yourself. My friends were actually over the other day and I had some in my shower and they were like, what is this? And they tried it out almost as a joke. But I'm fairly sure all of them left with that on their shopping list because that stuff works. Nares, hair removal, shower cream. Get ready for summer. You can buy it now at all major retailers. So easy for a year to go by. And you're in the same place because there's so much going on in the world today.
- [48:24]
Tony Robbins
Hey, everybody, it's Tony Robbins. So the real question is, how do you really get yourself to be in a place where you truly follow through, where you actually get the results that you really want? Listen, you really need to get yourself a coach. You need a professional who's already got results. You need something outside you, someone that's like what a coach does.
- [48:44]
Business Person / Testimonial Speaker
The most successful people in the world have coaches. If I want to play in that league, I have to model. What the successful people do vary at company ended on a 69% revenue growth, which is ridiculous because we're talking about millions of dollars.
- [48:57]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Tony Robbins results coach will get you to where you want to be in health, finances, career and beyond.
- [49:04]
Tony Robbins
If you'd like to test out one of my top coaches, we will give you a 30 minute free coaching session.
- [49:09]
Announcer (Havoc Town and Tony Robbins Ads)
Go to tonyrobbins.com to get started today. That's tonyrobbins.com.
- [49:16]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
There's a vile sickness in Amperstown. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [49:30]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien.
- [49:36]
Tony Robbins
Get back, everyone.
- [49:39]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him. Burn his body and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [49:50]
Announcer (Havoc Town and Tony Robbins Ads)
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:11]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
The devil walks in Apostown.
- [50:15]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.
- [50:18]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane.
- [50:27]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying, like, okay, pull this. Until this. Pull that. Turn this. It's just, I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny. I'm Noah.
- [50:41]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
This is Devin.
- [50:42]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
And on our new show, no Such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.
- [50:51]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Those who lack expertise lack the expertise.
- [50:55]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
They need to recognize that they lack expertise.
- [50:58]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing.
- [51:05]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
See?
- [51:06]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [51:12]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
Effy.
- [51:12]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
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- [51:54]
Narrator (Havoc Town Fiction Podcast)
There's a vile sickness in Amestown. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out.
- [52:03]
Announcer (Havoc Town and Tony Robbins Ads)
From iheart Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc T, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater Audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:21]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
Why are TSA rules so confusing?
- [52:24]
Tony Robbins
You got a hoodie on. Take it all.
- [52:26]
Host (No Such Thing Podcast)
I'm Manny. I'm Noah, this is Devin and we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming? I can't expect what to do now. If the rule was the same, go off on me. I deserve it, you know. Lock him up. Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:48]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
No Such Thing that was diagnosed with cancer on Friday and cancer free the next Friday. No chemo, no radiation, none of that.
- [52:57]
Host (Culture Raises Us Podcast)
On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy winning producer, pastor and music executive to talk about the beats, the business and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R and B and hip hop.
- [53:10]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
Professionally, I started at Death Row Records.
- [53:12]
Host (Culture Raises Us Podcast)
From Mary Mary to Jennifer Hudson, we get into the soul of the music and the purpose that drives it. Listen to Culture Raises us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:22]
Host (Psychology of Your 20s Podcast)
This is an iHeart podcast.