349. Flow states

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Psychology of Your 20s Episode 349: Flow States (November 2, 2025)
Host: Jemma Sbeg

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Episode Overview

In this bonus "coffee break" episode, Jemma Sbeg delves into the fascinating psychological concept of "flow states"—those magical moments when you become so immersed in an activity that time seems to melt away. Drawing from leading research and her own experiences, Jemma breaks down what flow is, why it matters, how to access it, and why it's both rare and essential in our distraction-filled modern lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is a Flow State? (02:18–04:50)

• Definition: Flow is the deeply engaging mental state where you're wholly absorbed in a task, losing sense of time, self, and outside distractions.
• Common Experiences: Many people encounter flow during creative pursuits (painting, dancing, writing), but it can happen in any activity that demands focused engagement, even in conversation or friendships.
• Jemma’s Perspective:
  • “That sweet spot where you are so immersed in what you’re doing that you just lose all sense of time. You forget to check your phone, you forget you’re even you for a little while...” (02:51)

The Origins—Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's Research (04:50–08:35)

• Historical Background:
  • Flow was first formally described by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi in the 1970s.
  • His studies showed that high performers—from athletes to artists—shared this common, transcendent experience.
• Eight Main Characteristics of Flow:
  1. Intense focus and concentration.
  2. Merging of action and awareness (“You stop thinking about what you’re doing, you just do it.”)
  3. Loss of self-consciousness (even silencing the "loudest inner critic").
  4. Sense of control—balance between challenge and skill.
  5. Distorted sense of time (hours feel like minutes).
  6. Clear goals and immediate feedback.
  7. Sense of effortlessness, despite hard work.
  8. Autotelic experience (doing it purely for the sake of doing, not for reward).
• Notable Quote:
  • “The best moments usually occur when a person’s body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile that is also enjoyable.” – Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (06:17, quoted by Jemma)

Flow Through History & Culture (08:35–10:21)

• Universal Experience: Flow isn’t uniquely modern.
  • Ancient Greeks called it eudaimonia (flourishing through meaningful activity).
  • Renaissance artists described divine inspiration.
  • Eastern traditions describe wu wei (“effortless action” in Taoism).
• Shared Humanity:
  • “I honestly find that very comforting to know that humanity has had this shared experience across thousands and thousands of years... Flow is accessible to everyone.” (09:34)

Who Experiences Flow? (10:21–12:54)

• More Common Among:
  • People engaging in structured, creative, or skill-based tasks (musicians, athletes, writers, gamers, programmers).
• The Role of Intrinsic Motivation:
  • “People who are intrinsically motivated…tend to experience flow more often.” (11:20)
  • Doing things for their own sake, not for outside approval, is the key.
• Autotelic Personality:
  • Individuals curious, persistent, open to experience, and less self-centered are more likely to enter flow.
  • But—“Anybody can experience this when they are doing something they love… The real truth about flow is that it is a human privilege, it is a human gift. It’s less about who you are and more about finding the right way to engage.” (12:27)

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The Science of Flow: What Happens in Your Brain? (17:07–19:38)

• Neurological Mechanism:
  • Flow is a state of “transient hypofrontality”—prefrontal cortex areas linked to self-monitoring and time awareness quiet down, creating altered consciousness focused solely on the task.
• Dopamine Boost:
  • Dopamine levels increase, enhancing enjoyment, creativity, focus, and pattern recognition.
• Stress Reduction:
  • Less activity in the amygdala (the “threat detector” in your brain), allowing relaxation and immersion.
• Supporting Study:
  • Cites a 2014 NeuroImage study in which flow (tasks matched to skill) reduced amygdala activity vs. boredom or overload.
• Notable Insight:
  • “Flow just gives you a break from yourself, from self comparison, from worry, from trying to perform. It’s not about escaping life, but about being completely inside of it.” (18:35)

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The Modern Barriers to Flow (19:39–22:25)

• The Attention Economy:
  • Achieving flow is “very hard… especially these days when the attention economy is basically meaning that there is money behind you being distracted.” (20:11)
  • Average attention span now: just 47 seconds (per Dr. Gloria Mark), making deep focus rare.
• Passive Distractions:
  • Mindless scrolling and multitasking are the opposite of flow—they are “forms of escapism rather than deeper emotional connection.” (19:15)

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How to Access Flow (22:26–27:00)

Practical Strategies:

• Protect Your Attention:
  • Schedule focus time. Disable notifications. Try single-tasking or going tech-free for a set period.
  • “You need that uninterrupted time to reform and rebuild.” (22:50)
• Find the Right Challenge:
  • Flow happens “between boredom and anxiety”… tasks should be “just a little more difficult than maybe you need to.”
  • Choose activities that engage and stretch you (creative hobbies, complex puzzles, challenging sports).
• Seek Internal Motivation:
  • Focus on tasks that matter to you, not for external praise or validation. “We need that internal harmony, that intrinsic motivation…” (25:30)
• Be Patient:
  • Flow can’t be forced—it sometimes happens organically, and remembering those moments can help you find purpose.

Host’s Personal Story:

• First major flow state: making a podcast for a university assignment.
• “I remember exactly where I was sitting… I sat there without eating, without drinking, without going to the bathroom for, I think, five hours just making this podcast. And when you find flow, I think you also find purpose.” (26:01)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “When you find flow, you find purpose.” (26:17)
• “Flow thrives in that sweet spot between boredom and anxiety.” (24:16)
• “If something is too easy, there’s no point in your brain reaching that level of engagement.” (24:47)
• “Flow isn’t something you can force. Sometimes it just happens. And when it does, please remember it. Keep it in mind.” (25:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:18 – Introduction and definition of flow
• 04:50 – Csikszentmihalyi’s research and flow’s eight characteristics
• 08:35 – Flow through historical and philosophical lenses
• 10:21 – Who experiences flow and the role of intrinsic motivation
• 17:07 – What happens in your brain during flow
• 19:39 – Modern barriers to flow (the attention economy)
• 22:26 – Steps to access flow and practical advice
• 26:01 – Jemma’s personal anecdote about finding purpose through flow

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Closing Thoughts

Jemma wraps up this reflective bonus episode by encouraging listeners to reclaim their attention, cultivate challenging and meaningful activities, and let go of the need for outside validation. Flow is accessible to everyone—when you find it, you often also discover purpose.

Listener Prompt:
Jemma asks the audience to consider—When do you experience flow, and does it align with your purpose? Drop a comment with your thoughts.

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Summary by an expert podcast summarizer. This summary covers all the main ideas and tones of the episode so you can understand and revisit the key insights, even if you haven't listened.

Transcript

[Psychology Podcast Host]

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[Psychology Podcast Host]

Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode. As we of course break down the psychology of our 20s today, we've got another one of our bonus episodes. These like kind of shorter coffee break style chats are when we take one psychological concept, one word that gets thrown around a lot and really just unpack what it actually means. Normally, like we don't, like they don't really have enough content for like a whole 40 minute episode. But I still really want to deep dive into them and I still feel like there's a lot in the topic and in the conversation that we can learn from. So today is one of those episodes and what we're talking about is something that I think we've probably all experienced, maybe not always recognized. It's also one of my favorite things to talk about in general. We're going to explore this concept of flow states. That sweet spot where you are so immersed in what you're doing that you just lose all, all sense of time. You forget to check your phone, you forget you're even you for a little while, you are just so totally in it. Maybe you have gotten this when you're doing something creative. I know for me, when I'm painting, when I'm doing Sudoku, I always get into a flow state. But maybe when you're dancing, sketching, or maybe it's when you're just with your best friend and suddenly hours fly by in a matter of minutes. It's so rare. It's this magical zone of effortless engagement that I think we could all benefit from experiencing a little bit more. So the term flow was first introduced by the Hungarian American psychologist Mihaly csikszentmihalyi in the 1970s. In his words, the best moments in our lives are not the passive, receptive, relaxing times. The best moments usually occur when a person's body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile that is also enjoyable. He first identified this feeling by looking at some of the most talented and exceptional people in the world. Athletes, ballet dancers, entrepreneurs, authors, scientists, and identifying this thing that kind of linked them all together. Something they all had in common, was that when they were doing the thing that they loved and that they were the best at, although they described it differently, they all had this feeling of flow that they said told them, almost made them feel like even if they never found success, they were on the right path, they wanted to chase this feeling. Csikszentmihalyi actually outlined the eight main characteristics of flow that he identified in all These different cases, see if you kind of align with any of these. See if these have been your experience. The first was intense focus and concentration. Whatever you are doing, you are completely absorbed. The second is merging of action and awareness. You stop thinking about what you're doing, you just do it. Third, loss of self consciousness. You forget to be self critical. Even if you have the loudest inner critic. When you're in a state of flow, they are nowhere to be seen. Fourth, a sense of control. You feel capable, balanced between challenge and skill. Fifth is a distorted sense of time. The hours literally feel like minutes. You look up, it's like you started at 2, it's 8pm 6. There is clear goals and feedback. You know what you're doing and you can see how you're doing. Seventh is a sense of effortlessness. You're working hard, but it doesn't feel hard. You don't feel like you're becoming exhausted. And eight is something called an autotelic experience, meaning that you are doing this thing for its own sake, not for a reward, not for an audience. If nobody ever acknowledged what you were doing, you would still do it every single day if you could. Even though cheek sent me high Yee gave it a modern label, the experience of flow. It's actually not modern at all. Throughout history people have described something strikingly similar. For example, ancient Greek philosophers talked about eudaimonia, a state of human flourishing that came from deep engagement with meaningful activity. Artists during the Renaissance described divine inspiration, right? This trance like creative state where their art seemed to come from something above them or around them rather than from them. Writers, Virginia Woolf, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Elizabeth Gilbert, they write about like this rapture of creativity, this sense of like losing themselves in thought and creation. It's an out of body experience. And even in Eastern philosophies, Buddhism, Taoism, there's this idea of wu wei, which is effortless action, the act of doing without forcing, of being so attuned to what you're doing that it feels like it is flowing through you like a river. So we can kind of see, you know, the language for how we describe this has evolved. But the human experience has been the same for literal centuries. Like Mihaly's greatest contribution was giving this feeling a psychological framework, identifying its triggers, measuring it, understanding how it affects our brains and our emotions. And it was by no means though a novel or new idea. This is something that different cultures, different people, different groups have named and have conceptualized for centuries. Flow is just the new label. And I think it's Quite a beautiful thing. Like I honestly find that very comforting to know that like humanity has had this shared experience across thousands and thousands of years, across time and context. And that flow is accessible to everyone. And people have experienced like it's wonder before, you know, I was even alive. I just find it quite beautiful. Now. I did just say flow is accessible to absolutely everyone. But it does tend to appear more often and more commonly in people who engage in structured challenges or creative practices. Musicians, writers, dancers, athletes, gamers, programmers like these are the groups that often report entering a flow state more frequently. And it makes sense when you think about the conditions that help create it. Their activities usually involve clear goals, immediate feedback and a gradual increase in skill over time. When a musician is practicing a piece, for example, you know they're constantly adjusting their performance by based on what they hear. The challenge evolves with their ability. The same goes for athletes, the same goes for gamers, the same goes for riders. The feedback and the balance between difficulty and mastery keeps the brain engaged at that sweet spot. It's not only about the type of activity though, it's also about how you approach it that is really, really critical. People who are intrinsically motivated, meaning they do things because they genuinely enjoy them, not because of external rewards, they tend to experience flow more often. Multiple studies and reviews show that intrinsic motivation fuels flow because it keeps your attention grounded in the process itself. We talked about this like dissipation of ego that yourself, like your inner critic kind of silences during these moments. That's incredibly important for this process. You wouldn't be able to access flow if you were constantly thinking about how this thing that you did was going to be graded, or whether it was going to be approved by people, whether it was going to receive positive feedback, whether people are going to like you more because you did it, it's just not possible. This has to be something that you do for you and you alone. And maybe the benefits of it is that people celebrate it and think that you're amazing and think that you're talented. You would do it though even if you didn't hear that praise. Psychologists actually find that there is a certain kind of person who is more able to activate this, I guess non self critical, non externally validated part of themselves. And these are people who are high in what we call again autotelic traits. They're high in curiosity, they're high in persistence, they're not very self centered and they have a deep openness to experience. That is the kind of individual who might be more likely to fall into a state of flow. And whilst of course, you know, we see that a lot in performance based fields, surgeons, teachers, software engineers, like it's, it's very essential to know that anybody can experience this when they are doing something they love, even if they don't have an autotelic personality. The real truth about flow is that it is a human privilege, it is a human gift. It's less about who you are and more about finding the right way to engage. So we've talked about who's more likely to experience flow, what it feels like, what is actually happening in our minds when we're in it, and how can we access its properties and that state more. We're going to take a short break. When we return, we're going to explore all of those things. Stay with us.

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[Kal Penn]

Ed Helms here and hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club.

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[Psychology Podcast Host]

So what exactly is happening in your brain during flow that makes it so amazing? Well, the neuroscientist Arnie Detrich described flow as a state of transient hypofrontality. What does that mean? It basically means that certain parts of your prefrontal cortex, especially those responsible for self monitoring and time awareness, actually quiet down or are down regulated, meaning that you are experiencing an altered state of consciousness rather than your brain being In a state of frantically juggling multiple things at once and the accompanying critical thoughts that follow, all these processes kind of fade away for a moment. Your attention becomes laser focused on the task in front of you. At the same time, dopamine, the neurotransmitter associated with reward and motivation, rises. We know that's going to make you enjoy the task more. It's also going to help you with creativity, sustained attention, and pattern recognition, meaning that you get more in this groove of things. A 2014 paper published in the journal NeuroImage investigated a sample of 27 participants and split them into three different experimental groups. Either flow, where participants engaged in tasks that automatically adjusted to their skill level, boredom, where tasks were too easy, and overload, where the task was way too challenging. They found that participants who experienced flow also showed decreased neural activity in the amygdala. We talk about the amygdala on the podcast so often. It could basically be a co host at this point, but it's responsible for threat detection, emotional processing, even social behavior. The activity in that area during flow, minimal. This neural shift is also why people in flow often report losing track of time. You know, your internal clock is slowing down and there's nothing scary that's going to bring you back to the present. Something really interesting that Csikszentmihalyi actually proposed is that flow might be one of the main ingredients of what he called the good life. A life that is not defined by constant pleasure, constant comfort, but by regular moments of deep engagement and meaning. And in a way that makes sense, because flow just gives you a break from yourself, from self comparison, from worry, from trying to perform. It's not about escaping life, but about being like completely inside of it, such that all of these emotional distractions aren't there. When you think about that, like, it's honestly so rare that we are in a state like this. And it's not a form of escapism, obviously, like when you're watching TikTok, when you're like on your phone, watching a movie, eating a snack. At the same time, you might think that you're in a flow state. You probably can't tell how much time is passing. It probably feels very effortless. But you're not, because it's often a form of, you know, again, escapism rather than deeper emotional connection. If you know, you're thinking, I don't think I've ever felt that way. When I'm doing something creative or I used to be able to do this, I can't get there anymore. I've rotted my brain. You're definitely not alone. Flow sounds effortless. It's actually very hard to achieve, especially these days when the attention economy is basically meaning that there is money behind you being distracted. If you are distracted, buy something on your phone, buy something on the screen, buy an advertisement by anything. Like somebody is making money off of your distraction. We're checking notifications. We're switching tabs. We're multitasking. That condition that a lot of us find ourselves in is actually the opposite of what flow needs to survive. Flow requires uninterrupted focus, that deep, unbroken engagement we have with one thing. And I listened to this podcast from the American psychological Association featuring Dr. Dr. Gloria Mark, and she spoke about how, on average, our attention spans now last for just 47 seconds. 47, 47 seconds. And that blew my mind when I heard it. That is clearly not enough time for your brain to fully immerse itself in anything. No wonder flow is becoming harder to come by, because our concentration is like a muscle, and it's probably atrophied a little bit. It's. Here's the good news. Focus, concentration, connectedness. That is a skill. And like any skill, it can be rebuilt. You can train your brain back into its flow state. One of the first steps is to protect your attention. Carve out time for focus the same way you would for a workout or for a social event. That might mean turning off notifications, setting your phone across the room, going on a walk without music, without your phone, just to observe, just to have 60 minutes, 30 minutes to be present. You need that uninterrupted time to reform and rebuild. Next, find the right balance of challenge, but make sure you are challenging yourself. You cannot achieve a flow state if you are constantly doing things that are incredibly passive and boring. Scrolling on your phone, it feels great. There's like a low level of dopamine constantly available to you there. You are never going to achieve a true flow state unless you put yourself in conditions and situations that take you out of that passive kind of observational moment that all of us find ourselves in. Flow thrives in that sweet spot between boredom and anxiety and just making something a little bit more complex, a little bit more difficult than maybe you need to. Pushing yourself to do things that are a little bit out of the ordinary, even if initially it feels hard to bring yourself to do them because you know that what's coming is going to be this, like, enchanting state of mind. What I mean by that is, like, go and invest in buying some painting supplies so that the only option for you at the end of the night is not just scrolling. You have a creative thing that you can engage in. Go and buy a sudoku book. Go and start a sub stack. Go and create a website for yourself or like a journal website for yourself. Just, like, do anything junk journal, like, get yourself into a sport. You cannot be in flow. And also completely passive and bored with your everyday life. I know it's kind of probably uncomfortable to hear, but if something is too easy, there's no point in your brain reaching that level of engagement. Choose tasks that also matter to you. Obviously, flow rarely happens when you're doing something purely for external validation. It's most likely to appear when it's something that's meaningful to you. I feel like these days we constantly feel. Feel like we need to produce or make or put stuff out there for other people's enjoyment and for other people's reassurance or attention. It's probably not so likely that flow is going to appear in those moments. We need that internal harmony, that internal validation, that intrinsic motivation pushing us to keep going, pushing us to engage, pushing us to want to try. Finally, be patient. Flow isn't something you can force. Sometimes it just happens. And when it does, please remember it. Keep it in mind. I will. This is like a wild story, but I remember one of the first times I experienced flow was. And this is going to sound so cheesy, the first time I made a podcast episode for a uni assignment. Half the reason why I knew that this was going to be something that I was good at and that I was going to want to do and that I was going to love was because I made this podcast for, like, an international relations course when I was at uni. And I remember exactly where I was sitting. I was sitting on the third floor of this library at anu, the university I went to. And I sat there without eating, without drinking, without going to the bathroom for, I think, five hours just making this podcast. And when you find flow, I think you also find purpose. Everybody wants to find what they're going to be great at, their dream job, you know, what they're here for. Flow is like your key to finding that when you find flow, you find purpose. So slow down, try not to distract yourself, try not to force yourself into it. Just listen to your environment, listen to your feelings, listen to your mental state, and flow will come a lot easier. And with that, so many other answers that you might be looking for in your life. So with that, in mind. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to this mini bonus episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you made it this far, please leave a little comment down below. When do you experience flow and do you think that your flow state is aligned with your purpose? Yes or no? I think it is. I know other people who think that flow aligns with more so what they're passionate with, that they never want to make money off of or that is always going to be their escape or their hobby for them. So I want to hear your thoughts and your opinions. Make sure as well that you are following us. Hit the subscribe button. Hit the what is the button? I think it's just a follow button. Hit the follow button so that you know when new episodes come out. We have some amazing, amazing episodes coming up this December. I just interviewed a guest on the Psychology of Plastic Surgery. I interviewed another one on the Ambition Trap. Like there's so much good stuff coming so make sure that you are around for that and follow us on Instagram Psychology Podcast if you want to see more behind the scenes stuff and what we're getting up to or engage with the community. There are so many opportunities for you to do that over there. Thank you as well to our research assistant Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode. She is fantastic. She is amazing. We appreciate her so much. But with all that being said, we will talk to you very soon. Stay safe, be kind and be gentle to yourself. See you later.

[Kal Penn]

Hey audiobook lovers. I'm Cal Penn.

[Ed Helms]

I'm Ed Helms.

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[Psychology Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.