← The Psychology of your 20s
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Gemma Spake
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
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Gemma Spake
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
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Gemma Spake
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
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Gemma Spake
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Use code GEMMA15 for 15% off your order at www.primallypure.com. that's P R I M A L L Y p u r e.com foreign. I'm Gemma Spake and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s. The podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back for another episode of the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another guest episode as we break down the psychology of our twenties. One of my favorite things about running a podcast is that I get to just like have these hour long conversations with people who have just done really cool, really unexpected things with their life. Things that I can honestly say I don't think anybody else has ever done. And today we have one of those people. George Appling has a Harvard mba. He was the CEO of a multi billion dollar company and and he now runs one of the world's largest Renaissance Fairs. He runs a beer business. He owns a ranch in Austin. Between those two timelines he has also done a dozen of other really cool interesting things. All because he understands this theory of matching your career path to your personality and your identity. In fact, through his own work and his own research, he's actually identified the five types of careers that people are drawn to and how we can use this theory to identify what we should be doing with our lives at this very moment. I am so excited for you Guys.
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Gemma Spake
To hear our conversation.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
I'm so excited to have him on the show. Without further ado, George Apling, welcome to.
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Gemma Spake
The psychology of your twenties.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Thank you so much for coming on.
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George Appling
Thank you, Gemma, for having me.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Yeah.
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Gemma Spake
Oh, I'm super excited about this one. As we were talking about before we started recording, I've spoken to you for a little bit here, but can you.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Tell the listeners about yourself and about.
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Gemma Spake
What you do, what you like, who you are?
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George Appling
Sure. My name's George. I'm originally from a small town in Texas. I had kind of a regular career in business, so I did strategy consulting for a long time at firms like McKinsey and booze. And then I did cell phone distribution for a long time. Ended up being the CEO of a billion dollar company. But then that kind of enabled me to do something completely different. So I threw all that stuff away and decided to be a passionpreneur. And so I've got a bunch of companies that I run that I'm deeply, deeply in love with. The core of that is Sherwood Forest Fair. You had mentioned a medieval thing that you guys do. So I run a medieval theme park. And so we run for Saturdays and Sundays in March and April, and we have 177,000 guests in 17 days. So over 10,000 people a day. And we are all Robin Hood all the time. We're jousting and falconry and drinking meat and eating turkey legs. So that's the core. And then I've got a Robinhood summer camp and a Mead business, which is fermented honey, an audio software company, an executive coaching business. And then I, you know, I wrote a book that hit Amazon number one. It's about choosing the relationship between your passion and your work, and. Which is different than saying your work and your passion have to be the same thing. I've got five different choices in the book, and it lays out a framework for you to pick the one that's right for you. And I'm just kind of running around the country talking mostly to university students about the book. So I know that's, like the most complicated intro anyone's probably ever done because I just do a lot of stuff. I've got three kids and nine horses and, you know, I mean, living my best life.
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Gemma Spake
Okay. But I love that story because it shows that you can kind of do it all and have all these different areas of. Of you, like, being fulfilled. As soon as you said me to business, I was like, okay, this guy is. Well, actually, as soon as you said Robin Hood and Renaissance Fair. I was like, this guy is so cool. And I love having guests on who have like a, a change in their life and go from doing like the corporate thing to the passion thing, especially when they did that, obviously not in their twenties, and did it later in life and have become fulfilled through that. This is what really drew me into your book and into what you have to say. You have this really cool story. You were a strategy consultant. You were the CEO of a billion dollar company. Now you have like, what seems like the coolest profession ever. Part of that change, I'm sure for you, was also discovering these five career paths and probably doing a lot of deep work within yourself to figure this out. Can you tell people what these are, these five career paths you describe?
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George Appling
Sure. And these are. I thought about these paths for years and years and years before putting them down into the book. So, you know, I had that little, you know, that little app called Microsoft Note on your phone, and I would like type in notes for decades, you know, I mean, not probably two decades, not three or four, but trying to kind of really congeal into what these paths are. So there are five paths, and the paths are different ways that passion and work can relate to each other. One is, of course, passion. And that's where your passion and your work are the same thing now. And I am typically talking to, you know, people in their 20s. And so that, you know, path makes sense if you have the capability and the desire to monetize a passion and your need for financial security is relatively low. If all those things are true, then the passion now path makes sense for you. There's the independent path where your passion and your work don't have anything to do with one another. I think that tends to be the default path of humans where, like, the world will do that to you. But in my framework, there's a certain set of conditions where that's the right thing for you. And my belief is that if you choose the independent path and you say to yourself, my passion and my work are not going to be the same thing, then you're going to be more productive and content and fulfilled because you decided, as opposed to letting the world decide that for you, there's the experiment path, which is typically for people who don't know what their passion is. Experiment just means open yourself up to things, try a bunch of stuff. It could be trying things in different geographies. I spent most of a year in Melbourne, by the way. It could be trying different functions and organization. It could be trying business versus government. Versus nonprofit. It could be learning a new language. It's whatever. It's kind of exposing yourself to as much as possible to look for that spark. That's the experiment path. There's the money path, which, you know, we all know the. Well, you did strategy consulting, so you knew the friends who went to Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, like, they. They had to have tons of money, and they just weren't going to be able to calm down until that happened. And so if your need for financial security is that high, it may be the right thing for you to do to go on the money path. And then the last one is the balanced path. And that's what I did. And the balanced path is you. You go through a regular career, hopefully you love it. And it's about building capabilities and wealth and reputation and network so that 5, 10, 15, 20 years later, you switch to the passion path and your probability of success is higher. So that's what I did, right? I did all my strategy consulting and running cell phone distribution companies. And so then when I turned over to the passion path 16 years ago, I had savings and I had capabilities and I had reputation and network, and it made my chances of success higher.
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Gemma Spake
So I love this framework because I think everyone kind of fits somewhere. Do you think that, like, with the passion path as well, that could be like the, like the volunteer path? I guess, like, people who sacrifice, like, their whole mission in life is to do good for others, is that, like, where that one kind of fits in?
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George Appling
Well, I think it's a lot of different things. So first off, I'll back up and say I've got a pretty decent data set on people going through their framework and choosing the five paths. So I think I'm at like, over 3,000 people have taken my little online tool. It takes like five minutes and they choose. And what's beautiful about the result is that the top one is. Is balanced and it's at like 26%. And the bottom one is passion now, but it's like 16. And so, you know, there's five paths. If, if the world were distributed equally, they would be 20% each, but they're like 16 to 26 or something. Like, they're. Each of the five paths really has an audience, so I feel really good about the definitions. To your question, though, about the passion path, there's a lot going on there, so there are a lot of artists want to do that path, where I've got a friend named Roxanne, and she just wasn't going to be satisfied with the universe. If she wasn't making music, that was it. She's going to make music. And she realized the probability of financial success is very low. And so she structured her life to be able to live frugally. But she lives this brilliant life. She lives in America, and she will fly to Spain for a summer and put a hat in the street and play music and make €300. On day one. And day two, she's a tourist. And day three, she puts a hat down and plays music and makes €200. And day four, she's a tourist. And she's done that over and over and over again. But, you know, she's staying in a Youth Hostel for €20 a night, not 200 or more. Right. So, you know, if you're going to follow an arts path at a young age, you might make it big financially, but you probably won't. And so you got to get your head around being fulfilled, you know, without being rich. But there's all sorts of things on the path. When I talk to these university students all the time, and I'll find people who, they're just completely in love with cars. And if they get to sell cars for a living, they're just over the moon. That's it. All they want to do is just sell cars and drive cars and play with cars and talk about cars. Like, okay, you know, there's a lot of jobs, you know, where you can think about cars all day. So it's a, it's a, it's a broader path than people would think. And the non profit, you hit that. There's a lot of people that do that. There's a lot of people drawn to public service that would be on the passion path. A lot of people in teaching are, you know, drawn to it by, by a genuine passion. So it could be a lot of things.
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Gemma Spake
Yeah, See, this is the thing about the passion path that I always say to people, because I did the independent path for a long time where I was like balancing this podcast and I worked as a consultant and I definitely burnt out. The thing with the passion path is, yeah, you're right, you have to be okay to make no money for a. Probably a long time slash, ever. And I've also found, and I don't know if you found this as well, do people who monetize their passion fall out of love with it for a little bit, or do you think that this path is really the one that you just fall back in love with it time and time again? I remember when I like the podcast became my full time job. You immediately love it less because there's all of this stuff wrapped up in financial security. Have you found that in some of the interviews with some of the people you've spoken to? Yeah.
- [15:27]
George Appling
Yes. This is something I, I talk about in my university talks and, and in the book, that it's not unusual for a passion to dim when it becomes your livelihood. That being said, I think there are. There are variations in there. And so the one I talk about a lot is, is painting. It seems to happen a lot that when your passion is painting and you're bringing a vision of something beautiful in your mind to canvas with oil and then showing it to the world, you're just completely and utterly in love with it. But when you're bringing someone else's vision to life on canvas with oil and you're getting paid for it and it has a deadline and they have critiques, it just sucks, right? It's just complete that you have to instead hate it. So painters moving from doing it for love to doing it for money I think has a pretty bad success rate. And so, like, that's the trick about the passion path is you gotta, you know, two different thoughts. One, you gotta dig deep on the question of do I really, really want to do this for a living? You gotta dig deep on that. And the second thing to think about is the passion is something that typically lasts forever or decades, and it, it animates you. You know, it's kind of your. Your reason for being. I talk a lot about ikigai, which is a Japanese framework in the book. And it's something that really gives you energy all the time. And it can be distinguished from something that you really enjoy. It can be distinguished from something that is pleasurable. It can be distinguished from something you love. Right. It's something that is giving you energy and a driving force for hopefully ever. So you gotta, you know, dig deep on whether that's true.
- [17:18]
Gemma Spake
I personally really relate to that. People are always like, how can your passion be podcasting? And I'm like, no, because since I was a kid, like, this is the medium that I loved. Like, I have these visceral memory, like these very intense memories of listening to podcasts with my mom, like listening to this American life when I was like a child and being like, this is amazing. Like, I love what they do with this. And yeah, it feels great that I found it so early. What would you say to people who. Because I. This is my thought on this. I feel like I have all these conversations obviously with people in their 20s, a lot of people want to find their passion and their purpose as a means to fulfill them. What would you say to people who are looking at their life and being like, wait, I just don't have that. I don't have it now. Maybe I. I've never had anything like that.
- [18:08]
George Appling
Yeah, I'd say three things, if I can say. I've got to take notes now so I can remember all my three things, but I probably will. I'm going to talk about digging, breadth, and work. Okay, so first, one of my favorite books for the last 10 years is grit by Angela Duckworth. And one of the things she talks about in there is that passion is rarely, if ever, something you discover because you're sitting down and asking yourself the question, what am I passionate about? It just doesn't really work that way. It tends to be a spark of something that gets you excited, and then you start digging into it, and you're like, oh, that's really interesting. Oh. And you keep going and you keep going and you keep going. So creating a passion in something tends to be a lot of work. It tends to be digging and going deeper and putting time into it, putting energy into it, getting to know people into it, reading about it. So passion is rarely a Thunderstrike moment. It's usually a process to figure that out. So the first thing is, that's my first suggestion, is don't expect to find the passion by sitting there asking yourself, looking at the blue sky, going, what am I passionate about? You can do that. And I've got a passion tree in my book to help you think about that. But just bear in mind, it's probably going to take some work. The second is breadth, and it's this idea that there's an incredible breadth of things that a human being can be passionate about. Podcast Renaissance festivals. This is gonna be the weirdest thing you've ever heard. I think I've just fell in love. I think I'm passionate about analytical insight, meaning using math to solve a problem and coming up with something that no one else had come up with. Or that's hard to come up with that. I just love that. And here's the example. That's just the most boring thing you can imagine. A long time ago, I built a supply curve and a demand curve for paraffin wax. I had a Harvard mba, and I'm making a lot of money, and I was just jazzed by analytical insight. So breath. You could be passionate about so many things. And I mentioned cars and music. I Mean, it's really. It's okay. Like, you can be passionate just about a lot of stuff. So open yourself, open your mind. And then the third thing, you know, work. Yeah. You might have to work at it to figure it out.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Yeah.
- [20:34]
Gemma Spake
Which is, you know, I love that book, Grit as well. And a study that I always tell people about is that more than intelligence, pure intelligence, more than emotional intelligence, more than anything, grit is the biggest predictor of success in passion, in intellectual pursuit, in money, in improving your skill. They have done this, this huge study that looks at this, and they are like, what makes the best people the best? Because, you know, Taylor Swift isn't the best vocalist. And, like, there are certain athletes who don't actually have the best physique for their sport, and yet they become incredibly successful because they just want to work for it. So I love that. I love that you mentioned that book. It's, like, definitely required reading if you like. If you like the podcast.
- [21:29]
George Appling
Yeah, I love that book. Also, I love your Taylor Swift example, because the one I use is Ed Sheeran. If you listen to his. His music at 16, it's kind of awful. And he just worked and worked and worked, and now he's one of the biggest stars in the world.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Yeah.
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Gemma Spake
And he's written so many songs, like. And also I feel like he talks a lot about how he doesn't have this face for, like, commercial music. And he kind of, like, makes fun of himself, and it's like, yeah, but the. But the work and the. And, like, the care and the love for it definitely comes through and makes people believe in what you're doing as well. I want to shift gears. We've talked about passion a lot because I think that's often the path that a lot of people in their 20s care about. But the one I'm particularly drawn to talking about here is the experiment path. Now, am I. Am I correct in saying this is.
- [22:19]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
The least popular in your research?
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George Appling
I think that is right. I think. I mean, I could pull it up, but, yeah, I think that is in. It's in last place. But, you know, like I said, each of these paths really has an audience.
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Gemma Spake
Yeah. And so the experiment path, it's basically to kind of paraphrase what you said before, this is, like, for people who are keen to just try different things and to, you know, be a woodworker one day, a tax accountant the next, maybe bird watcher. I'm thinking about my uncle, who definitely, like, loves the experiment path. Why do you think, firstly, do you think this is an important path for people to be on in their 20s. And why do you think maybe people shy away from it?
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George Appling
Yeah. One thing you said was you felt drawn to experiment. I felt think in my mind, the experiment path is it's a choice you make and it typically is a choice you make because you don't know what your passion is. And so what? And you're going to go find it. And while you're going to find it, you're going to build skills, you're going to meet new people, you're going to see new places, you're going to understand new industries. Right. And you're just going to go try stuff. And I think it's a beautiful thing to do for people in their 20s. And I'll tell you my favorite example, Matthew McConaughey, who roughly Everyone in the world loves, he's here in Austin where I am. He did. This is a really neat segue for me and you. So Matthew McConaughey is from Austin and he did his experiment path in Australia. So when he was very young, like 18 years old, he went and spent a year in Australia. It's in his biography called Green Lights.
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Gemma Spake
Yeah.
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George Appling
And he did like six fundamentally different jobs in Australia. Just completely different stuff like, you know, law clerk and engine mechanic and lifeguard and I'm just making these things up.
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Gemma Spake
Like, I don't know, they, oh, and probably like fruit picking.
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George Appling
Yeah. It was just always he just did these completely different jobs. And the point was to just sort of open your mind to all of the things that exist in this world. And that's, you know, something I, I, I'd like to, I'll plant this seed and maybe we'll have a separate conversation or I need to write an article about this. And this is something I feel really strongly about now because I have a 17 year old daughter and she's applying to college now. Ish. In the next, you know, one, two, three months. And what the universities are telling her is convince us that you know what you're passionate about and that you're going to major in it and that you're going to graduate and that you're going to get a job in that field. And I just think that's such a disservice. How the hell is a 17 year old supposed to know that? Some of them do, but I think most of them don't. And so now there's this industry of consultants who are teaching 17 year olds how to pretend to universities that they know what they're passionate about. It's awful. And so I think what, because you know, by definition at that age, you haven't seen all that. You don't know what strategy consulting is, right? Yeah. I mean, there's so many things in the world, like I like to look around me and think, you know, somebody specializes in how to make monitors or ice machines. I mean, like all these things and you don't know that yet. You got to go into the world and see all these things that are being done to find that spark of something you might love. And so like insisting that at 17, you're supposed to know that, I think is a real disservice to young people.
- [26:02]
Gemma Spake
It's something I hear about all the time, where it's like what you're meant to decide. Your brain is still a decade away from maturation. You haven't had any kind of really, truly independent experiences. You've probably only seen 0.002% of the world and they're like, cool. Lock yourself into this path, strap yourself in, and if you're not happy, well, quitting that, that's a sign of failure. That's a sign that you don't have a willingness or you don't have grit, or you don't have discipline. And I, my sister is also 17 and I, I was talking to her about it and I was like, my best advice is to just choose whatever you care about the most right now and then just take as many electives as possible, travel as much as possible. Like, I went to university, I did economics and politics. I really do not talk about that now. But it was just the experience of being around like minded people who cared about things that also really like, pushed me to that point. This kind of segues into my next question, which is why do you think people feel such a pressure again to choose something to say, this is who I am and to maybe never walk away from it. Is that something that you've seen a lot of people do maybe in later decades of their life?
- [27:22]
George Appling
Sure. So just to wrap on that last question of the experiment path, I think it's much better advice to do it. Matthew McConaughey did go to Australia and do six jobs for a year, or like people call it a gap year, like, go expose yourself to the world because you might find something else that you can be passionate about. You might find your passion, you might just, you might fall in love. I mean, whatever. You got to get your, get out there, right?
- [27:48]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Yeah.
- [27:48]
George Appling
You know, so I'm a big fan of exposing yourself to the world, doing a Gap year, all that kind of thing, as opposed to pretending that you know what you're passionate about. So why do people feel pressured to declare their passion early on? So from a, from a university point of view, there is this really understandable but ultimately sad rationale. So the universities in the United States and I, it's probably not different in Australia, but I don't know. I know it's true. Here they're very focused on rising up in the rankings. You know, in like Forbes and U.S. news World Report, these magazines will rank universities and those rankings are based on metrics. And the metrics include things like graduation rate or like percentage of people, I don't want to say kids, people who graduate in four or five years, percentage of people who have a job within three months after graduation, average starting salary. And it turns out for at least the, the, the best universities, if you pick those people who are 17 years old and they do know what they're passionate about, they do better on those metrics, right? They're more likely to graduate because they're studying something they like. They're more likely to get a job because they're passionate about it and they're more likely to get paid well down the line because they're doing something they're passionate about. So from a good university point of view, you're creating this incentive for people to lie to you because what you really want those people, right? You want those 17 year olds who know exactly what they want, that's who you want because they're going to drive your numbers up. So it's this really just sort of perverse incentive and that, that's become the predominant message to very young people. Like you got to do what you're passionate about and you don't like. I think telling someone that they're working their passion has to be the same thing is a mistake because it's not true. Right? Like for me, you know, I'm, I'm running a bunch of businesses. I would probably be failing if I tried to do that at 20 years old, right? I, I had to do 20 years of, and it wasn't paying dues. I loved what I was doing, but I learned so much and I got financial security so that, you know, I started to follow my passion. I had a much higher probability of success because I had all these capabilities and I had the ability to, to fund scaling up some of my companies. So I think telling 20 somethings you should work at what you're passionate about. Now, I think it's a mistake. I think that's true for 20% of them. Literally.
- [30:33]
Gemma Spake
You have the data and I'm looking.
- [30:35]
George Appling
At it right here.
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Gemma Spake
Yeah. And additionally, I just think that it's like I always say this to people. Firstly, I loved what you just told me about the universities. I had no idea that that was the case. But anytime someone says you should be doing this, know that the should benefits them. Like, if someone is so hell bent on getting you to do something a certain way, there's an ulterior motive always. And secondly, like, I get all of these questions from people being like, I don't know what I want to do with my life. You have so much time to figure it out, like you genuinely do. I love surrounding myself with examples of people who just pivot and shift later in life and who just do really cool things. And it's like all, it's this hindsight, right? All of these little, all these little things, like, actually contribute to this final goal.
- [31:30]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
So we are going to take a.
- [31:31]
Gemma Spake
Short break here, but when we return, I do want to talk about what occurs when people are pursuing their ideal career path and how you can determine it and why, again, people feel so much pressure to have it all figured out. So stay with us.
- [31:53]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist has asked you, do you have any questions and your mind suddenly just goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the script from CVS Pharmacy and and iHeartMedia. Starting January 14th. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, this podcast brings you real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the health experts you probably see the most answering the questions you wish you'd asked sooner, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines should you get before your big overseas trip? Even those questions you are sometimes a little bit too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends, and gives you practical, trustworthy advice straight from the people behind the counter. No white coats, no lectures, just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone understands how chaotic life can get and how important flexibility with your finances is, it's me. Especially as someone who was self employed. Some months are stacked, some months are not. That's why the Klarna card is such a smart tool for me. It's a debit card that lets you decide how to pay upfront like a normal debit card, or plan ahead to pay later. Choose how you want to pay before you buy, so you're spending with purpose and staying in control. The Klarna Card works anywhere Visa is accepted and there is no credit impact. To apply, sign up for the Klarna card by downloading the Klarna app or learn more@klarna.com US Klarna card Klarna Card Pay Later Plans issued by Webbank Deposits in your balance account are held at Webbank Member FDIC anywhere Visa is accepted. Certain merchant products, goods and services restrict and supply. Some merchants do not accept virtual cards. Physical card only included with the paid Klarna membership Plan hello my lovely listeners. By now you know the more knowledge we have about ourselves and the way our bodies work, the more empowered and in control we are. And this is also true when it comes to our sexual health and what to do after unprotected sex. That's where Plan B comes in. It's emergency contraception with no age requirement that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts. And because it works by only temporarily delaying ovulation, it won't impact your ability to get pregnant in the future. We love a backup plan that puts us in control because the more we know, the more power we have. Learn more@planb1step.com users directed we all know at this stage, finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance. That is where most online therapy platforms fall short. Ruler does things differently. They partner with over a hundred insurance plans making the average copay just $15 per session. That is real therapy from a licensed professional at a price that actually makes sense. And Ruler it isn't just affordable, the experience is tailored around you. Other online therapy platforms might match you with the first available provider, whether or not they are the right fit. Ruler considers your goals, considers your preferences, considers your background to make you a curated list of licensed in network therapists who are actually aligned with what you need. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit ruler.com gemma to get started and ask after you sign up you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know that we sent you. That's r u l a.com Gemma. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
- [35:45]
Gemma Spake
This year I'm skipping the impulse buys and I'm gifting what I actually use.
- [35:49]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
And love like Primally Pures Antioxidant Balm. I have gifted this to all of my friends. It is a product I swear by. I have Even caught my boyfriend using it, so it is boyfriend approved as well. Their holiday bundles are clean, cozy and they are crafted to last. I'm obsessed with their almond and vanilla body butter and their glossy lip oil. For festive skin that glows, you can use my code Gemma15 for 15 off at www.primarilypure.com. that's P R I M A L L Y P-U-R-E.com.
- [36:23]
Gemma Spake
This is my next big line of questioning for you. So just as a little revision for people who we did talk about it right at the top of the episode. The five career paths are independent, money, passion, experiment and balanced. How do people identify which one of these is right for them right now? Is there like a feeling, is there a state of mind, a state of flow that they can kind of look out for?
- [36:49]
George Appling
Well, I think choosing one of the five paths is about this framework that I have in my book. It sounds complicated, but it's a four by three matrix. But just to explore those two axes for a second, the Y axis is can I monetize a passion? And I've got four answers to that. Yes now, yes later, I don't know. Which typically means I don't know what my passion is. And no, I cannot monetize the passion. And I like to joke that if your only passion is smoking pot and play video games, the answer might be no.
- [37:24]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Yeah.
- [37:24]
George Appling
And then I've got this professor friend of mine who says you can monetize both smoking pot and playing video games.
- [37:30]
Gemma Spake
I was going to say I knew.
- [37:35]
George Appling
Being in the pot business and being in a video game business, but smoking pot and playing video games, that's really hard to monetize. Yeah. And then that's one. And then the X axis is need for financial security, High, medium, low. And I've got, you know, in the tool and in the book, there's like these 10 questions and you score them one to 10 and you add it up and it, it tells you whether you're high, medium or low. And so then the five paths are plotted on that matrix. So you figure out which square you're in and it will say this is the right path for you. And for most of them there's a choice of one or two. And then it really narrows it down. A couple of easy examples. If you, if the answer to the question, can I monetize a passion? If the answer is yes now and your need for financial security is low, well, then the answer is the passion path. Why would you not? Right. If you have the capability and the desire to monetize a passion now, and you're not worried about money, go for it. Conversely, if your need for financial security is high and like, you're just. You're not going to be comfortable until you got a financial cushion that is going to push you toward the money path. If you don't know what your passion is, that's going to push you to the experiment path. And so you just, you go through the framework and it'll help you pick one of the five.
- [38:54]
Gemma Spake
See, I like this. This is the kind of stuff that my mind really enjoys, is frameworks, data, and the evidence. And I feel like that's what a lot of people are looking for, is like, I don't need to know exactly what I'm going to do, but I do want to know what kind of general steps I should take. I do have a question about the people who are really focused on the money path. Is there some maybe personality aspect or maybe cultural theme that you've noticed for the people who are quite focused on gaining financial security or finding a lot of financial success in their work?
- [39:34]
George Appling
Yeah, I think it's not a personality type from a psychology point of view. It's not like a big five thing or an MBTI thing. I think it tends to be a. It's a. I think it's a family history thing. So I'll tell you the, the exemplar I use who's a. A guy I respect a lot. He's a podcaster now. His name is Scott Galloway. Have you heard of Scott Galloway?
- [39:58]
Gemma Spake
You know what? I feel like I have.
- [39:59]
George Appling
He's a big influencer, and he was a professor at the Stern School of Business at New York University. Very, very popular. And he's my exemplar for the money path. And I'll tell you how he got there. How he got there. Three things. One is he grew up very poor and he had this experience and he was in the northern part of the U.S. i don't remember. It's Wisconsin or Michigan or whatever. One of those places where it gets cold. It doesn't really get cold out here in Texas. And he, he lost his. His coat. And he was afraid to tell his mother that he lost his coat because he knew that the $30 to replace it was. Would be really painful. She didn't tell her. So then he came home from school one day and it's, you know, 20 degrees outside and he's shivering and red, and his mother's like, where's your coat, man? And he had to say that he lost it, and that kind of scarred him a little bit. And then fast forward, you know, 15 years. He was in his 20s, and he was doing well, but his mother got cancer, and there were some treatments that they could have tried if they had money, and they didn't. And that scarred him again. And so he decided he had to be rich. And so he went into investment banking and he went to Morgan Stanley and he did the get rich thing. And I, you know, one could argue, see, he wasn't on the balance path, because in the balance path, you may be building wealth, but it's with an eye towards switching to the passion path later. What he did, though, is he got so wealthy that he. He got off of the. The money path. And now I think he's on the passion path. He's a podcaster and an influencer, and he's trying to do some good for the world. But he was on the money path because that was not the goal. He kind of figured that out later. And I thought it's really important for people on the money path is. In my opinion, there's two different views on high wealth. One view is more is better, and the other view is enough is enough. And I'm very convinced, and I should do the survey somehow, that the more is better people are much less happy than the enough is enough people, because the more is better people, they never stop from the money path. They keep going. They're like hamsters on a wheel. They just can't get off the enough is enough people. They can get off of the money path, and they can switch to the passion path when they think, okay, I mean, like, Scott Galloway's net worth is over $100 million, and you can't spend that much money. You have to wake up and try to spend that much money.
- [42:43]
Gemma Spake
Yeah.
- [42:43]
George Appling
So he's an enough is enough person. So now he's, you know, doing stuff that he thinks is good for the world.
- [42:50]
Gemma Spake
You know how you mentioned that you want to do a study on this. Do you know the term the hedonic treadmill or.
- [42:56]
George Appling
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like the. The rat in the wheel is you buy something new, and six months later or six weeks later, it doesn't bring a happiness anymore. It's just normal.
- [43:07]
Gemma Spake
And they've done all these studies. Well, there's a. They haven't done a lot, but there's a particularly famous one about people who win the lottery.
- [43:14]
George Appling
Yeah.
- [43:15]
Gemma Spake
And people who get paralyzed that I've talked about on the podcast before. And you would expect, like, if I make all this money, my life is going to change. But then of course, it actually goes back to a relatively stable level. And I would assume that people who are like, the more, more, more people, their only hit is coming from gaining wealth. And so they're on this like hedonic treadmill of like, okay, when I get here, I'll be happy. And they think that they're an enough is enough person, but they're not. They are actually a more is more person. Be so interesting to see like the distinction between like the psychological drivers behind these people and like. Yeah, because I, yeah, it would be.
- [43:56]
George Appling
Fascinating to, you know, disaggregate people and wealthy people into more is better and enough is enough and then test that against their happiness and their fulfillment and their productivity and their relationships with friends and family and their physical health. Because I would bet, I would bet that the enough is enough people score better on a lot of life outcomes. The more it's better people.
- [44:18]
Gemma Spake
Oh yeah, totally. Because it's also like they can relax at some stage and they can give back. And we know that generosity and pro social spending is like super empowering. Which kind of brings me to this, this next question that I have, which is specifically for people in their 20s, how do you recommend we handle comparison within our career path? So seeing people make more money than us, seeing people know what their passion is, seeing people being able to monetize their passion, how do we, how do we manage that?
- [44:53]
George Appling
You have to just not do it, right? You have to not do it. Social comparison is useless. And so I'll give you two kind of thoughts. One is a good friend of mine is a professor of business strategy at Texas A and M. And his saying that, he says all the time is, today is a good day to be better than I was yesterday. He just says it all the time. And then I've got a buddy, he's one of the best full contact jousters in the world. It's his thing, right? It's his passion. And he says, you know, I'm not competing with anyone. I'm competing to be better than I was yesterday. And so then here's a what might be a tip. It comes from Atomic Habits by James Clear. And it's this mathematical reality that 1.0 raised to the 365th power is 1.0, 1.01. So 1% more raised to the 365th power is 37. 37 versus 1. So if you can get 1% better every day, you're going to be 37 times better at the end of the year. And maybe 1% every day is too much, but get 1% better every month or every quarter or every year, and that's all you really need to do, you know, screw what everybody else is doing, get 1% better.
- [46:17]
Gemma Spake
And I'm sure you've seen that work. I've seen that work. Like, I'm running a half marathon on the weekend. I couldn't run 3Ks when I first at the start of the year. And it's just also committing to being slow and steady and understanding. And if you're a frequent listener of the podcast, you will know this analogy comparison is not a ladder. It is a circle. We often assume that. It's like, oh, there's someone who's better than me, and there's someone who's better than them, and there's someone at the very top who has everything. Actually, you're comparing yourself to Jill, who's comparing herself to Joe, who's comparing herself himself to Michael, who's comparing himself to you. Every single person has something that someone else does not have, and that person has something that you don't have. And so understanding that, like, you are comparing based on a figment of. Of your insecurity, you imagine their life as being amazing because you aren't sure that your life is. That was like, the real key that unlocked it for me, where I was like, okay, this is me just trying to sabotage me using this person as, like, an excuse.
- [47:25]
George Appling
I love it. I love what you're saying, because this is all. This is all inside of you, right? So you're better at running a half marathon this month than you were last month. And I can see by the smile on your face you're taking pride in getting better at your goal of a half marathon. What could you be doing? You could be going, look at this person who can run a marathon every week. They're so cool, and I'm so bad, right? I'm so envious because they're awesome. That would be completely useless to you. And think about how much happier you are as a human because your mindset is, I'm better than I was last month, and that's great. And you know what? I'm going to get better next month, too. And I'm going to achieve this goal. Like, that's a really positive and productive mindset.
- [48:08]
Gemma Spake
Speaking of advice, we have one. Well, I have one final question for you. We ask every single listener this question, which is, what is one thing you wish you had known in your 20s. One piece of advice that has nothing to do with what we talked about today.
- [48:22]
George Appling
Take care of your body. And I'm going to give you the mathematical reason to take care of your body. So there's this idea of maximum heart rate, which is 220, minus your age. So if you're. The math is easy. If you're 20 years old, your maximum heart rate is 200. So then there's all these correlations that are about to happen. If you can get your heart rate to 60% of maximum at least 30 minutes a day, at least five days a week, that's the independent variable. And you can do that on anything but 60% of maximum heart rate, which would be 120 beats per minute if you're 20 years old, at least 30 minutes a day, at least five days a week. Here come the correlations. Negatively correlated with heart disease, which is the number one killer. Negatively correlated with cancer, which is the number two killer. Negatively correlated with anxiety, depression and suicide attempts. Positively correlated with longevity, happiness, iq, sex appeal. It's negatively correlated with all the worst things and positively correlated with all the best things. I mean, think about happiness, longevity, and iq. What the hell else do you want? And so when I make this impassioned plea to students, I'm like, there is not a better case for a human being to do anything in this life than that case I just made you. It is not possible to make a better case than that. So please find that thing that you can do with your body. And at my age, a brisk walk will do it, right? Yeah, find that thing. It might be tennis or swimming or weightlifting or it could do anything, right? Whatever it is, find that thing.
- [50:01]
Gemma Spake
Well, I love that advice. I think that's like, no one's ever given it before either. So that's always a good thing. I love it. And I just want to thank you again for coming on. This conversation has honestly been so fun for me, which is always like a good way to end interviews. And I just love what you're putting out into the world. So, yeah, I want to say a big thank you. Where can people find you as well?
- [50:27]
George Appling
They can finally@georgeampling.com cool.
- [50:30]
Gemma Spake
And I'm going to leave a link in the description for George's book. I know a lot of psychology students do listen to the podcast if you are interested in organizational psychology specifically. I think this is a good companion, especially if you want to practice and you want to practice with people who are in emerging adulthood. Great example of a book for that. So, again, George, thank you so much and thank you to everyone who has listened this far. If you have made it this far are leave in the comment below what you think your current career path is. Is it independent, money, passion, experiment or balanced? Let's see if we can like match George's numbers here and match his his statistics. As always. If you enjoyed the podcast, leave the five star review. Make sure you are following along and following us on Instagram at that psychology podcast. It's December guest month on the podcast so we have some cool other guests coming in. Make sure that you are following us to see who they are and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be.
- [51:29]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Gent yourself and we will talk very soon. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and your mind goes blank when the pharmacist asks you any questions? That is why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia starting January 14th. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, each episode features real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the.
- [51:54]
Gemma Spake
Health expert you probably see the most.
- [51:57]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Breaking down the questions you wish you'd asked from which medications might not mix well to what vaccines do I need for my next big trip? They'll bust myths, decode trends, and share practical advice you can actually use. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello my lovely listeners. By now you know the more knowledge we have about ourselves and the way our bodies work, the more empowered and in control we are. And this is also true when it comes to our sexual health and what to do after unprotected sex. That's where Plan B comes in. It's emergency contraception with no age requirement that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts. And because it works by only temporarily delaying ovulation, it won't impact your ability to get pregnant in the future. We love a backup plan that puts us in control because the more we know, the more power we have. Learn more@planb1step.com users directed I'll be honest with you all.
- [52:57]
Gemma Spake
Life as someone who is self employed.
- [52:59]
Podcast Host / Advertiser Voice
Is unpredictable and having flexibility with my finances is key. The Klarna Card is an upgraded debit card that lets you choose how to pay now or later, keeping you in control. The Klarna Card works anywhere Visa is accepted and there is no credit impact. To apply, sign up for the Klarna Card by downloading the Klarna app or learn more@klarna.com US Klarna card Klarna Card Pay Later Plans issued by Webbank. Deposits in your balance account are held at Webbank Member FDIC anywhere Visa is accepted. Certain merchant products, goods and services restrict and supply. Some merchants do not accept virtual cards, physical card only included with the paid Klarna membership plan Season 2 of unrivaled.
- [53:39]
Unrivaled Basketball Announcer
Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. But don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.
- [54:06]
Public Investing Platform Announcer
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- [55:19]
Gemma Spake
Guaranteed Human.